What is a Tram, Actually?
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- Опубликовано: 6 янв 2024
- The question is more complicated than it may appear.
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Since you apparently missed the opportunity to speak about the difference between pantographs, trolley poles, lyres, plows, and other means of getting the electricity from the overhead wire (or conduits, et.al.), we must have a video on that topic to look forward to! 😃👍🏻
What an excellent video idea!
Trams in Bordeaux use induction power from plates between the rails.
Edit: Correction. It’s not induction but uses a pickup shoe which contacts the active electrical segment. My mistake.
Yes, third rails, bow collectors, non-electrical steam trams, the infamous Chesterfield tram/trolley bus system....
Is it plow? (American spelling)
Or plough? (British spelling)
@@brigidsingleton1596 Good question! And the systems where there is no conduit for the plow to go down into, what’s it called then? 😊
On the topic of weird distinctions, I operated streetcars for a while in Dallas, and we were legally classified as “trains” rather than “motor vehicles” solely due to having fixed tracks. And trains legally have right of way over both pedestrians and cars-but not boats, oddly.
After several incidents of our motormen getting a ticket from clueless cops, we were prohibited from carrying our car driver’s license and given a number to call if a cop ever had a problem with that.
In Czechia, even trolleybuses are considered a rail vehicle - because the overhead line counts as a railway. It is of course a road vehicle as well, so drivers need to have both licences.
I would like to know more. What were the tickets for? How exactly do you get pulled over?
@@aadd74The incident that triggered the policy change was a jerk transit cop who wrote one motoroman a ticket for reckless driving (swerving off the rails to hit a bus, according to the bus driver) and not having auto insurance, then threatened to arrest him if he kept “driving”.
I once got stopped for an “illegal” turn where the tracks turn left from the right lane; that light adds a long all-red cycle for just that purpose when a track circuit detects a streetcar is present. But that cop was smart enough to listen to me, apologize and leave.
Boats, as in fishing boats? I'd understand the logic of not having ROW over, say, a yacht or a large sailboat, but not over small ones like kayaks or putt boats.
Did you drive the DART Light Rail, M-Line Streetcar or the Dallas Streetcar?
Actually, here in Karlsruhe, Germany, we have Trams that operate on a line-of-sight basis within the city of Karlsruhe but that also travel on regular tracks outside of the city, so they are indeed compatible with heavy rail. The overhead lines in the "tram"-area are dc while the overhead lines on the main line are ac and they can switch them during operation.
I’ve heard those referred to as tram-trains
@@aDifferentJT I guess you could refer to them as tram-trains, I just wanted to mention them as Jago said in the video that he thinks that there probably aren't light rail trams that are compatible with heavy rail.
@@aDifferentJTAnd in Swedish, the term for that kind of vehicle is “duospårvagn” (for the dual mode; spårvagn”, literally “track-waggon”, is the legal term for trams and has a separate legislation from road vehicles and trains) even though we do not have any. About twenty years ago, the Ruhrgebiet tram-train concept was popular to look at for regional transit politicians and the Swedish term was coined. 😏
These systems are quite common in Germany. They are called “Stadtbahn” which means something in the lines of “city railway”
@@HansTheGeek I wasn't ware that other german cities also did this, I only knew of Kalrsruhe as I live relatively close
Interesting to note that in Hungarian, the word for tram, 'villamos', literally translates to 'electric'. Horse-drawn trams were always referred to as omnibuses.
The word for tram/streetcar in Slovak is "elektricka", whihc seems to emphasize the "electric-ness", I have no idea what the earlier horse-drawn models would be called in that language.
@raakone Prague had horse drawn trams, maybe that's why wrong Czechs don't call them the same as Slovaks do? Of course Brno has their own word for it.
Germany also called them "Elektrische" to distinguish them from the "Pferdebahn", the horse trolley. That too was clearly a Bahn (a train) though and not a bus. Because a Bahn ALWAYS is a train. Unless it's the Autobahn. Or a Landebahn. Or a Regattabahn. Or an Umlaufbahn. @@dustojnikhummer
I also think, electrical is very common but that would not distinguish it from a train (Especially here in the central/western Europe region, where 3/4 or more (Swiss even 100%) of the railway network is electric.
But I thinkt the formal German name "Straßenbahn" is a good explaination. It is a street train/railway. So something which can run in the street but is on rails. (Though here in Austria we also call it Tramway or Bim from the sound of the bell)
Rails are from my view strictly not a fixed limitation. Otherwise e.g. the paris metro would have a lot of underground trolleybuses.
But I think, as soon as it can break out from a fixed system and drive on the road, like the Bombardier Guided Light Transit (TVR) could, it is a Trolleybus - A guided one nevertheless.
Also mixed service (Main rail and Tram) is not uncommon. E.g. Vienne has it's Lokalbahn Wien-Baden which is a local train runnning mixed with trams for some part within Vienna. Or there is even the Karlsruher Modell for a Tram-Train, which also has to be able to operate as a tram on street and mixed with local trains so with additional lights and made for higher speed.
So what were buses called when trams were called omnibuses?
Incidentally, I once got into a lot of trouble at a crowded bus stop in Debrecen for trying to pluralise 'busz' (wrongly) in an English accent!
Nice to see the Dublin "Luas" Trams which operate on and off street (on old railway allignments) in your video!
yeah the old daniel day lewis
Pretty much most tram systems run on and off the street but the new part of Edinburgh is entirely on street.
I have read that a lot of private industrial railways were technically trams because while you needed an act of parliament to build a railway, you didn't to build a tram line so the distinction can be no more than a legal technicality.
The Wisbech & Upwell Tramway (ofToby the Tram fame) comes to mind.
No, there's no legal technicality as far as naming a line a railway or a tramroad is concerned. Three of the Welsh narrow gauge lines illustrate this. Slate quarry owners promoted a Bill to authorise the construction of the Corris, Machynlleth and River Dovey Tramroad which became an Act in 1858. At its opening the traffic was almost exclusively slate, and the trains were horse drawn. The Tramroad later became the steam-worked Corris Railway, and resembled its neighbour, the Tal-y-llyn Railway (also authorised by Act of Parliament in 1864). Neither line has ever run along a street. As a boy I spent many holidays in the Croesor Valley where the rails of the 1864 Croesor Tramway could still. This line, which included some spectacular inclined planes (one at the head of the valley was actually a parabola) was not authorised by an Act of Parliament. Its lower section eventually became part of the Welsh Highland Railway, but reverted to very occasional horse drawn trains when the WHR closed, and was eventually revived as part of the modern WHR (under a Transport and Works order). All three lines are now railways. :)
@@roderickjoyce6716 It's not the *naming* that is a legal technicality; it's the legal framework under which it is *operated*. It can be called anything the promoter wishes and can get through Parliament.
@@roderickjoyce6716the talyllyn operated unpowered in the streets of abergernolwen
In the 1990s I had a German teacher called Ruth (a wartime escapee from Germany, lovely lady.) One week Ruth, knowing my interest in things that ran on rail brought in an article entitled The Strass bahn, asking me what this was & expecting the N.American term Streetcar. My response, it’s a tramway!
Ruth said yes it’s a tramway. Eyes raised in amazement.
It's amazing what amazes a German
I once new a lady who was a German teacher, not at my school, but I knew her all the same, but she was a child in 1945 Dresden & stood on a hill outside the city watching it burn. Her family managed to escape after the war & she ended up in sleepy North Wales. It's a shame I didn't know about her story when I knew her to talk to, but then I'd also feel very uncomfortable bringing the story up however much I wanted to...
I always worry when people make video's attempting to define something. So I'm glad you arrived at the correct conclusion, which is to say that there isn't one.
And despite not having answered the question you posed, we still learned something about trams. Great video :)
@@xr6lad Have.... have you watched the same video I did?
What you're doing isn't even pedantry, you're just misunderstanding the point for the sake of winning an argument nobody is having.
Nobody said that the word tram is boundless and has no meaning. The argument is and always has been, as the video put it, that a tram is whatever people say it is.
@@xr6lad Guy who thinks there's only 3 states of matter level reading comprehension. The universe does not care about your desire for neat little boxes to cram things in, our definitions are "more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules." Is a hotdog a sandwich? Idk, does it help you understand the world better if you call it one?
@@gearandalthefirst7027 Guys! *It's about technicality.* A bus with tram interiors *is still just a bus* no matter how much the production company is trying to sell it/pass it off as a "tram". Anything that isn't rolling on steel tracks with steel wheels should NOT EVER be called/considered a "train" or "tram", and not every vehicle with multiple articulations is a train or tram.
Thanks Jago for using a picture of the LUAS tram system for this video. It's a great system and I love using it when going into town as us Dubliners say 😊😊😊😊😊
the LUAS North Dublin line, the Green line, also uses i believe former train way lines for it's routes.....
LUAS in Irish language means speed.... pronounced LEWIS
Lewis 'Hammertime'; or maybe going in to town to get hammered 😂
Sheffield Supertram has the Class 399s which operate on both Line of Sight and regular signalling, and runs on both heavy and light rail systems 😅
Thats Tram-Rail ?Tram-Train
@@highpath4776 I'd go as far as calling it a Citytrain - but that takes away the tram name
And one in Germany too, as pointed out below (I forgot the name of the town but remembered it was in Germany).
@@seprisherekarlsruhe, germany
@@highpath4776Tram train normally.
IIUC, "tram" was originally short for "trammelled car", i.e. a car that is restricted in its movements by rails or similar. That aspect would rule out wannabe motor busses that go anywhere, but could include guided busways and possibly trolley busses that are tied to the overhead network.
Thank you for giving a balanced and considerate take on this issue. Far too many commentators are ignorant or outright tramsphobic, and never take the time to understand what a tram really is.
Whatever they are, we need more of them in Britain, every city and large town should have trams.
Here in Australia the term Light Rail vehicle is used more for those cities that have reintroduced Light Rail/Tram Networks. Such as Sydney, Newcastle, Canberra & The Gold Coast. Tram is used in the long-standing established networks of Melbourne and Adelaide. Sydney even uses a Big ‘L’ “roundell”/indicator for the tram/light rail keeping T for the Trains
Yep, as a Melbournian I'm used to relying on our tram system. I just wish the government would invest in extending the tram system because Melbourne has grown larger than the existing tram system covers.
Except that Adelaide's huge system was dismantled over a few short years leaving just one mostly-segregated line that is used as a political football each election.
Even stranger in canberra, the government and newspaper absolutely INSIST on calling them 'light rail vehicles', 'the light rail', etc, as if 'tram' was a dirty word. I call them white whales because it's funnier.
@@sancheeez Except even in the definition defined in this video they're not trams, because there's absolutely no street running, unlike the other new Australian systems listed above. Light rail is the right terminology (even if some of the street signage says uses "tram" because it's so much shorter)
Brisbane of course is going even further. It is introducing what it calls a 'Metro', using 'electric tram-buses' along busways. It's certainly not a Metro in the usual sense (even Melbourne suburban trains could reasonably claim some basis for using that term) - However, given that it will provide travel to/from the University of Queensland and the Queensland University of Technology, I suggest calling it the "BrisbaneTravesty".
So little corretion on Trolley and Trolleybuses, the Trolley is the wheel/wheels on top of the trolley poles that run along the the cable for pickup, this is in contrast to pantographs which do not "troll" along the cable but just slide along it with a carbon pad, to spread the wear patch, pantograph cables zigzag above the rails dragging the cable sideways relative to the pantograph as the vehicle travels down the line.
Tram runs on tramway if we want to be technical, this is technically a different rail shape where here is a groove the flange site in so that when you lay the asphalt/concrete surface for road running. Of course marketing and history mucks this up somewhat always has, always will. I tend to go with passenger carryiing self-propelled electric rail vehicle (so EMU or railcar) with at least some road running.
This! We need to get this comment on top.
the Yellow Route on the Sheffield tramway partly reuses an old railway (the spur to Doncaster from the former Great Central Railway between Sheffield and Lincoln); as this made it relatively easy to build, it was the first section to open
Sheffield was also the location of the first tram-train service in the UK, with a short spur being constructed from the Yellow Route near Meadowhall to the main heavy-rail line through the existing station at Rotherham Central and terminating at the Parkgate retail park
the plan was originally for it to run up to Barnsley, but there were many practical difficulties - there are multiple Victorian-era low bridges and a long tunnel on the route, so no room for overhead wires, and the line itself is on the opposite side of Meadowhall Interchange to the tram terminal, meaning a massive bridge or a long tunnel would have been required to link it to the rest of the network
There once was a man who said, "Damn!
It is borne in upon me I am,
An engine that moves,
In predestinate grooves;
I'm not even a bus, I'm a tram!"
Another North American term for trams is Streetcars. Where I live, these run in some of the oldest parts of the city.
I live near one of these routes, and I love to hear the rumble they make.
I bet your Canadian?
@@nc3826 I am.
@@alexandraclement1456Thanks for the confirmation..... Since Americans normally reference their country, not the continent.... And usually use the term trolley not streetcar...
A streetcar is usually only a one or maybe two train unit though as opposed to a longer train of tram cars. I've never heard anyone describe the C Train as a streetcar for example.
@@enterpriset I live in Toronto, and the only times I've seen two hooked up together is when one is broken down. We call them streetcars here.
Here in Edmonton, Alberta, we have two passenger rail systems both called LRT. The older one, dating from the later 1970s is partially underground and is like a metro line. The new LRT, opened in late 2023 is what I'd call a tram. They were built by Bombardier and look like the Croydon trams. Car & truck drivers have had to learn to share the road with the new system.
The use of LRT to describe rapid transit (light metro) and tram-like service in Canada is a source of major confusion. When the tram-style "LRT" was advanced in Surrey BC online arguments devolved to nonsense because confused members of the public were often arguing with people they actually agreed with.
Translink has referred to the Skytrain system as (A)LRT which apparently stands for Automated Light *Rapid* Transit while Light *Rail* Transit was used to mean trams.
We can only hope some form of term standardization happens but I'm not holding my breath...
The Sheffield tram line to Rotherham uses heavy rail alignments alongside trains. This line uses Vossloh-built trams capable of running on heavy rail lines. In fact they have a TOPS designation as Class 399 stock. But they are trams and run as such in Sheffield.
In The Hague, tram lines 3 and 4 to Zoetermeer in part run on the same tracks as metro line E to/from Rotterdam, which itself was a heavy rail line converted to metro operation. The trams on lines 3 and 4 run on streets elsewhere along their routes.
In Oslo, tram line 13 shares tracks with metro trains for 3 stops
TOPS - Now there is a rabbit hole to go down.... Don't forget the Southern Pacific in the USA when you do.
@@modeltrainsandtracks Don't bother. Since privatisation there has been neither rhyme nor reason about how codes are allocated. Like too much else on the current railway, it's just being made up as people go along.
The Green Line in Dublin when it gets onto the old Harcourt Street line is a train in all but name. It starts to feel and ride line a train. I really like your definition.
Using what was the ripped up Harcourt to Bray line.
@@toyotaprius79Mutter mutter mutter, one day the tram will return to Bray and take traffic off the M50
Arcadia jmt,
The big difference between the trams currently running on this alignment and the mainline trains which operated until 1958, is that the trains were strictly signalled using absolute block (the train could not enter the section until the previous train had cleared it and the signal man had set the route and changed the signal to green).
Today the trams operate by line of sight. When a tram is running late, the following tram is allowed to follow, usually catching up at the next halt. The driver will usually leave about ten or twenty feet between himself and the tram in front.
This is the definitive difference between a railway and a tramway; strict regulation versus laissez-faire.
Of course on the street running and at level crossings, the tramway signals are interlocked with the traffic lights and pedestrian lights.
@@TadeuszCantwellare those toll booths still slowing everything down on the M50
@@TheHoveHeretic the toll booths were removed before the pandemic, replaced with camera system to read the number plate after the government bought the rights off the private company who helped build it in exchange for the right to collect tolls. Even still it was around 6k cars a day over capacity. The line extension would allow workers in Sandyford Industrial park an alternative, taking some traffic off the motorway.
In the UK, it's nice and simple. A tram is vehicle that means the requirements of the Tramway Act of 1870.
Brexit simplified everything...... By turning back the clock a hundred years ....
Several sections of the Act were later repealed or superseded by other legislation, including the Light Railways Act 1896. Most notably, local authorities were given the right to construct and operate their own tramways under the newer Acts, and municipal ownership became the norm when the original concessions expired.
This is a bit like saying “art” is anything covered under the Copyright Act only nothing like as controversial
@@nc3826 legislation unlike holy texts evolve over time. Many tramways had their own Acts of Parliament, just like the railways. The Light Railways Act has also been replaced.
@@gormster no art is what the artist says is art.
Once again, Jago, you make a video that us mere mortals didn't anticipate, and you increase everyone's knowledge in a few fleeting moments. Thanks 👍🏼
London Trams also used to get power from a conduit from between the rails rather than overhead cables.
I'd be interested to know what the National Tramway Museum consider a tram to be.
Anything they can get their hands on and used to be called tram by any definition, probably.
@countluke2334 I think they're a bit more nuanced than that. They own a bus which they are very clear is not a tram
@@Lennon6412 The Tramway Museum Society, who own and operate Crich, will I suspect refer you to the Tramway Act 1870 for the definition of a tram. They can be pretty pedantic (says me who is a long-time member and who can also be pretty pedantic!).
The signalling is a major part of it, and in railway parlance “signalling” means track control. Trams are not centrally controlled; the driver is in the loop at all times, and even switches points from the cab to change direction. I think this is part of the “light” in light rail but I have to dig more into that.
I think Light Rail just literally means the trains are lightweight, that they have exceptionally good braking just as they have good acceleration; so, a train that handles like a tram, or is just straight up a tram.
Couple of additional (pedantic?) points- Here in Luxembourg, our trams are powered by overhead wires outside the city centre, but by buried induction loops at each station within the city centre which give the trams just enough juice to get to the next station. Pantographs are raised and lowered accordingly at the beginning/end of each section as applicable. Otherwise, all very normal tram-stuff, two parallel rails at street level, line of sight, etc...
Also, the guided busses used in the French city of Nancy (about 110 Km from Luxembourg) gave trouble since day 1 and have recently all been decommissioned... They lasted all of 20 or 25 years, IIRC. Sic transit gloria mundi...
The Tim Traveller has a nice video about those.
EDIT: ruclips.net/video/Kr4EZwZbxwQ/видео.html&pp=ygUXdGhlIHRpbSB0cmF2ZWxsZXIgbmFuY3k%3D
And in Riems, they use third rail in the city centre. The third rail is in the middle, and is in short sections which are powered only when completely covered by the tram, so you can't step on it.
Or *non* transit gloria mundi perhaps.
Okay, the Latin is atrocious but the pun should be clear enough ....
@@thomasm1964 I know, I missed a trick there, but I figured nobody would read my post so didn't edit... Glad you spotted it👍🏼
The French guided rail buses i.e. trams, have the worst quality of both a bus and a tram. Which never made much sense.
While the current tram-buses in the UK do not use a guide rail. So contrarily have most of the advantages of both a tram and a bus. So it's kind of an apples versus oranges comparison.
But it is nice to hear that induction is starting to be used..... It's more costly and less efficient but it has numerous advantages.....I hope it will eventually be used in a shared motorway, so it can both power and charge various types of electric vehicles, while they are in motion ....
In the UK, I think Light Railways are subject to a Light Railway Order. Many preserved railways are Light Railways under this Act, even though they are former traditional, i.e., “heavy” railways. They are subject to a 25 MPH speed limit, although one notable exception is the Great Central which can, under some circumstances, operate trains at up to, I believe, 60 MPH for testing purposes. I think they have to be empty of passengers for this to be allowed. I think the trams in Manchester are real Trams, since they run on tramways in the City streets, but they also run out to Bury, for example, on former mainline railway tracks, when I think they must exceed 25 MPH. It’s an interesting topic, to be sure, and well done to you for covering it in an interesting way.
For me a tram is specially designed to run in towns/cities in the streets and on seperate tracks (in some cities those trams are running to neighbouring places as well). Modern trams are at least partly low-floor. Than there are the Inter-urban trams: fit to run in cities and beyond to other places over greater distances. A nice example of that is the Belgium coastal tramway from Knokke to Adinkerke: with a length of almost 70 kilometres that is the longest tramline in the World. And than we have the tram-trains which were first introduced in Karlsruhe (Germany): it is combining tram- and railway technic in one vehicle and that was unheard off at the time... It was (and still is) a huge succes because that is creating direct connections where that was never possible before. In a few places they have introduced simular tram-train systems but never on the scale Karlsruhe has done. You did also mentioned the high platform systems as there are in Manchester (completely above the ground) and Stuttgart (partly underground). In "my book" that are not trams but small metro's, but than: "what's in a name?" When it works it's fine. And to finish with there are Hybrid trams which are capable of running on electricity and on diesel. The first one was introduced in 2004 in Nordhausen (Germany) where there is a very small tram company and it is still running sucesfully. You can find this concept in a few other places in Germany as well: Chemnitz and Kassel are two examples of that.
I think the A-Line in LA is now longer at 78km
Having worked in a transport museum for several years, that's the best answer I've heard at 7:20! Brilliant.
And, you blurred the edges about 'trolleys'. A trolley is technically the wheel or contact that runs on the overhead wire providing electricity to the vehicle. So, some trams have trolleys!
Exactly, Trolleybuses are trolleybuses because they are omnibuses which obtain power by means of a trolley. Nothing more, nothing less.
I think in the UK we call those tram poles rather than trolleys.
So I can see where the confusion came in, especially if an American friend said something like “we call those trolleys” without specifying the “those”.
@@kaitlyn__L The operators disagree with you, I'm afraid, unless the various old rule books in my collection of junk, ahem, old stuff are all wrong. 'Trolley poles' is the term they consistently use.
What is referred to as a tram is often referred to as a trolley or a street car in the US of America.... Which is irrelevant to the part that's referred to as a trolley.... My pedantic friends
@@atraindriver fair enough. I was recalling what I read on the signs around the trams in the London and Glasgow transport museums, but it’s been a few years.
In some countries at the Continent, at least in the days of steam, there was a legal distinction between a train and a non-train rail vehicle, called tram. By law the maximum speed of a tram was much lower and there were less safety features (e.g. no signals, track not separated from the streets). And by law sometimes trains weren't allowed in city centers, which didn't apply for trams.
Therefore, when a proper railway was too expensive, they build a tram line instead of a branchline. This tram also carried freight.
Since busses became cheaper at some point, those tram lines disappeared, unless passenger numbers required too many busses.
Nowadays the lightrail is invented and trams are electrified. This is however, at the Continent, not relevant for the answer to the question 'When is a tram, a tram?' because this question was answered a century ago.
Non the less, I liked the video very much!
There are also Tram Trains which share operation on heavy rail routes & draw power off the 25KV overhead.
To be pedantic enough to make Jago proud, the part where he reads that a tram is electric and powered by overhead wires....we have "trams" in the Midlands that, on part of the system, aren't powered by OLE, they are powered by onboard batteries. Although, those batteries are charged by the OLE where the tram is under wires.
Like the use of Dublin's Green Luas (Irish for Speed) tram in the current video. This line uses a lot of the former Harcourt Street line that went all the way to Bray at one time.
Remnants of the old stations still exist at Harcourt Street and Dundrum although their use now changed.
I grew up with trams in Leeds (we shared a cosy house). The trams largely ran on segregated tracks - one section through Middleton woods. What made it a tram was that it rain on rails, and did not require a platform. I still stick with those two as being necessary for a vehicle to be considered a tram.
Here in Brum although there are low platforms (or raised footways) one can get on the trams from street level, so they are trams. In Manchester platforms are _necessary_ , so Metrolink vehicles are _faux_ trams, and more like railways.
Metrolink don't call themselves trams and have never done so; it's only pundits, punters and politicians which call them trams. Metrolink has always been a Light Rail network from its implementation back in the 1990s.
@@atraindriver Metrolink do call themselves a tram though (Or at least TfGM does). And I think rightly so. The Metrolink is both light rail and a high floor tram, since it does partly run in mixed traffic on the streets
I don't think that just because Metrolink trams are high floor, makes them less of a tram since they do run in mixed traffic on some lines
@@Gfynbcyiokbg8710 TfGM isn't Metrolink though. TfGM is basically politicians, buteaucrats and media, so my point stands.
@@atraindriver Metrolink is and always has been TfGM. Its never been seperate. And if you're talking about the private operators they also call it a tram so I don't know what you are talking about
Couple of points from Swansea. We had articulated tram-buses called ftrMetro. Cost a fortune, required massive amounts of road modifications, and lasted 6 whole years before scrapping. They gave a lovely comfortable ride, but in every other way - cost included - they were a disaster. So beware of the claims made for tram-buses - at least the London ones are electric and not articulated. Bendy buses have advantages but are a nightmare for pedestrians and other road users. Also, longer ago we had the Mumbles Train. Which looked like a tram, was electric, ran alongside (though not on) public roads but was never called a tram. Possibly because the original line was the Swansea and Oystermouth Railway and it was steam operated as a railway for many years. The old carriages look pretty tram-like, but the locos were ordinary tank engines, which had to have plenty of power as holiday trains could pack in up to a thousand passengers.
An interesting conundrum, if that's the word.. I particularly liked the museum piece shots of various trams & poss not trams, also the definitely not trams. Mild amusement was caused some years ago when Manchester's Metrolink tram service was opened, and the people dubbed it 'Abba', an impure acronym for "Altrincham to Bury and back again". Happy New Year to you and all supporters of your excellent channel. ⭐👍
Some bits of the Manchester Metrolink, I believe the original former rail lines out to Bury & Altrincham, only recently converted to full line of sight working, so there's another way they didn't qualify.
Rotterdam blurs the lines even more. It's metro has a weird section out in the Eastern suburbs that runs as a "sneltram" (fast tram) because of the at grade working with level crossings etc. Then, further north one line up to Den Haag joins the lines in from Zoetermeer which run as trams while it runs still as a metro, with separate height platforms
I think the defining feature is it runs on the street along a route that's fixed (and thus has to have priority, strictly no parking, and is easy to communicate) and very precise (so it can come within centimetres of platforms or obstacles). Whether that's accomplished by tracks or some digital guidance is secondary, but tracks also do a non-technical job: they communicate and assert the route. To fit the concept of a tram, a trackless vehicle has to have another way to say "Oi, this here is a tram line"
I thought you were about to nail it towards the end. I'd define a tram as a rail vehicle which travels wholly or mostly along a public right-of-way. A train can sometimes travel on a tramway, but it's a "special working" in railway-speak, and is subject to certain conditions.
Not forgetting that a electric tram wasn't always powered by overhead electric cables. A lot of trams back in the day used the conduit collection method so it didn't use overhead cables.
As can still be seen at the entrance to the Kingsway tram tunnel in Holborn!
There's also the more recent APS (I think that's what it was called?) system that basically uses powered conductor rails, set up in sections such that they're only energised when a tram is over them.
I live near the Croydon Tramlink (or whatever it's called this week) and I have always considered it to be a light railway that has street running in places. To my mind, it would only be a tram if it was nearly all street running and didn't look so much like a train.
A more obvious distinction between a “tram” and a “bus” is that tram will always travel along a predefined route. Notionally the rails don’t move. Overhead power pickup doesn’t uniquely define a tram. Steel wheels on rails don’t uniquely define a tram, but do exclude a bus. So this almost demands a table of properties to clarify the possibilities. I draw up a table if anyone is interested.
We had the Wisbech and Upwell Tramway bear us, it inspired Rev Audrey to write the Thomas stories, used to see J70 tram engines (Toby) pulling fruit trains to Wisbech station in the early 60s, running along the road .
On RTE television there is a comedy about Dublin lady tram conductors.
It is called LUAS women.
Been on the LUAS a few times, nice little trams, but can get rowdy and hooligans get on them
Also, i wish they reused all the old trams and trains for recreational use and trams back on Howth to experience whats it is like on them back in the day, lol
Conductors on the Luas?
In many places, e.g. in Budapest, they used to haul heavy rail vehicles on tram tracks on the street, to reach certain industries, either by heavy rail diesel locomotives, or by "freight trams", resembling to maintenance vehicles.
6:41 “A tram is a light rail vehicle.”
Throughout the video I had been saying just that and was glad when you finally got to it. (Although people still call them “streetcars” in San Francisco, the closest large city to me, the term “light rail vehicle” or LRV for what the thing _is_ - as opposed to what you’re waiting for or what might be late - is used often enough as well.)
I'm not sure if this was raised by anyone yet, but "trambus" also used to mean buses that didn't have their engines sticking out into the front, but instead they had a flat front and the driver sat over the front axles, making them look more like trams than conventional buses. I don't think this distinction is used anymore though.
I was born and raised in Sheffield. The so-called Supertram network is a pale shadow of the earlier, local authority operated, tramway system.
The last answer was the best I've heard so far for the definition of a tram.
To throw even more confusion into the mix are Interurbans. These were vehicles that straddled the line between trams and EMUs; they could and often did run parts of their route on track that was shared with normal trams, but they could also use their own heavy rail lines when going between communities. They also often carried freight and multiple classes of passengers. Interurban railways were very popular in the USA and Canada from the early 1900's to roughly the 1950's; they were cheaper to build and operate than conventional railways and more flexible, able to bring people directly into the heart of a city's downtown and still link smaller rural communities that steam railways might not consider profitable. Some notable examples include the North and South Shore Lines around Chicago, the latter of which still operates a short stretch of street running to this day and once featured the stylish Electroliner streamlined cars, the Texas Transportation Company that once ran a system from Fort Worth all the way to the Oklahoma border, and perhaps most of all Pacific Electric, which ran both trams and interurbans throughout the Los Angeles area. Sadly, nearly all interurban railways died off around the 1950's; their tight profit margins and niche service meant that they often couldn't compete with new bus and trucking lines once road haulage became practical.
Trams are EMUs- what? Are trams not usually electric multiple units?
Jago missed cable powered railways(think San Francisco). They ran in streets and separated private right of way. The US had the largest number, but Britain had a share. And there were a few non-passenger vehicles, mostly mail carriers.
Llandudno is still cable hauled (and one of the manx ones ?) the big cable ones were Middleton (Leeds) and Middleton (Cheshire ?/Derbyshire? incline ?)
The first iteration of the Edinburgh tram system was also a cable system. There were, if memory serves, three winding houses on the system, and the one remaining section of tram line visible, in the road at Waterloo Place, is from that system. In fact when work was being undertaken on the Leith extension evidence of pullies were uncovered.
…so the Glasgow underground was originally a tram?
The Brixton trams that went from Kennington and up Brixton Hill were cable powered orifginally. I heard that one winding station building is an Italian Church.
@@brianfretwell3886 If memory serves, part of the London & Blackwall Railway was cable-hauled when it first opened back in the 1830s. Just to prove I was paying attention at the back of the class, as Mr H covered this back in the day.
"A form of light-rail vehicle capable of operation on tracks laid into public-access, typically urban, roadways, conventionally powered by overhead electrical cables and carrying passengers."
I am sure there are goods trams, (if only for departmental use)
@@highpath4776 Yeah, hence my choice of "conventionally"
The Isle of Wight used to have petrol-powered trams (manufactured by Dewey). They ran along Ryde Pier (parallel to the railway).
On alighting from the ferry passengers were greeted with a large sign proclaiming ‘Tramway To Esplanade’.
So did Morecambe in Lancashire. Built by Leyland.
The Drewry has recently been restored (with new frames) on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway and a trailer is currently under construction to complement it and make a full tram set. It's already being used on galas and I expect the idea is to use it off-season.
@@alexhando8541 - Wow that’s really interesting, thank you! (And thanks also for the correct spelling, I wasn’t too sure).
@@alexhando8541and it looks absolutely superb! Pre-1923 the Freshwater Yarmouth & Newport Rly had a magnificent 1913 vintage 'Drewry'. The undergubbins were much as the Ryde Pier ones, but the open sided passenger accommodation was basically on transverse Chesterfield sofas!! For some odd reason, the Southern found no use for it .... can't think why!!
@@TheHoveHeretic The FYN Drewry is especially interesting, as it while it was very much intended for public passenger use, it's design was so barebones (cf. Colonel Stephens' later acquisition from the same company for the WC&PR), it was much more akin to an inspection trolley. Then again, it shouldn't come as all that much of suprise really as the FYN was very much the poor man of the IOW network, with cost saving and cutting being undertaken across many aspects of the railway's operation (the parlous state of the track was one of the reasons the IOW Central Railway decided to cut their losses with the FYN!)
Just a small comment, Wantage Tramway #5 was constructed for the Sandy and Potton Railway in Bedfordshire and just known as Shannon. I am sure other people have pointed this out, but they are in amongst thousands of (rightly) complementary comments below (wood for trees etc).
It's interesting that you bring up freight haulage, here in the US there used to be a lot of electric railroads which hauled freight in an urban environment around the turn of the 20th century. Pacific Electric is probably the most well-known but lots of interurbans (based on your video about light railways the older meaning of this term is probably the most equivalent in UK English, except interurbans were almost exclusively electric) also handled freight. Iowa Traction is the last surviving of these, using a couple of motors built in the 1920s.
A lot of these companies described themselves as "electric traction" or just "traction" companies, which the term used by modellers over here as a catchall for anything that runs under wires or with 3rd rail/conduit.
I really like those tram buses! Irizar is a company from the north of Spain, so we do have lots of their buses in many cities (also here in Valencia, where I live).
Sheffield's Supertram system includes rolling stock that runs on heavy rail into Rotherham Central Railway Station and on to Rotherham's Parkgate retail park, although to be fair; these vehicles are referred to as "tram-trains".
I heard that trolleybuses were the first vehicles to use indicators, rather than pop-out trafficators, to show that they were turning as they were condisered (in London?) as being trams not road vehicles,
If line-of-sight operation is a factor, i'd point out that the Manchester Metrolink used block signalling originally. It only changed over to line-of-sight as part of the phase 3 expansions, which is part of the reason it is so much slower than it used to be.
As this video started I thought...what about light rail although I recall what makes light rail, light rail...and then you threw it in...and I burst out laughing. Thank you for making my day!
I believe the reason we try to define a tram is because trains exist.We try to define the difference between a train and a tram only on the basis of comparison between the two.I don't believe there is a clear cut definition. Trains and trams came from one concept and "evolved " to meet the needs of their different operations. So it is difficult to exactly define what either is as different systems of rail use some aspects of both trains and trams,the Docklands light railway being an example. My Father always said that the difference between a train and a tram was a train always has priority over road traffic,after all you never see a train stopping for traffic at a level crossing!! So I think we only try to define trams because of trains.
There used to be a "tramway" that ran 40km from my home city of Port Lincoln to Coffin Bay that was laid by mining giant BHP to transport line sand for use in steelworks around Australia. It was most certainly a standard gauge railway with diesel electric locomotives hauling the hopper trucks. Apparently it was called a tramway because of a law that stated that only the state government was allowed to operate a "railway".
Your videos are always the most interesting little things. Thank you and please never stop.
In Nantes, France, they have a newish 'tram-train' system which runs on tramway lines within the city and then joins the regional express rail lines and runs north to Chateaubriant l. I haven't tried it but the vehicles look more like trams than trains I believe.
I've heard the Manchester trams called street trains due to their high speed on segregated lines and their high floor hight due to using old platforms on the old train lines. Trams I feel should also have level-ish boarding from the street so you don't need large infrastructure to run them, even if that helps and is implemented.
A lot of old European trams had one or two steps up from street level. Low floor (disability-friendly?) trams seem to have come in gradually in the second half of the 20th century.
@@pras12100I say that they are still trams as they can run with no substantial infostructure (aside from the running lines) outside of the vehicle itself even if they don't have level boarding, neither do many trams as they are often just bus stops next to the tracks - see Canada or San Francisco. And so, under my definition they are still trams however due to the need of platforms, level boarding or not, Manchester doesn't have trams.
Wow, a hundred more questions i was totally unaware of unanswered. I'm glad we got all that sorted out, call it a tram and it's a tram, unless it's not.
actually, trolleybuses are called that because of their current collector- the trolley pole (well, two of them for trolleybuses and a handful of tram systems)
trolleys were called that for the same reason- though the name stuck even after some systems switched to other current collectors
As a diesel powered fire fighting vehicle for use in tram tunnels, I feel left out. 😅
Trains tend to have toilets and their stations/halts/stops are generally futher apart from one another. In terms of train stations, there are station buildings, trams typically only have some sort of shelter at their stops. Buses don't require rails and offer lower capacity compared to the trams
So the Elizabeth Line is a tram ?
So every metro is a tram? 😮
I think that the interurban cars in Karlsruhe have toilets, while between Dusseldorf and adjoining Cities there were trams with buffets.
In the end though, do not forget that he who tried the first urban lines in Britain was one George Francis Train
Only long distance trains have to have toilets. Local trains, suburban trains and metros usually need all the standing room they can get and have similar on-board amenities to a city bus. They often have shorter distances between stops than some UK tram lines do. In central Paris and on M1 in Budapest, most stations are 300 - 500 meters apart, while Manchester has some tram stops just outside the city centre that are distanced over 1km apart.
It's simply like this:
For capacity: train>tram>bus
For infrastructure: train (high platform, always)>tram (usually with platforms, high or low)>bus (bus stop sign)
The TramTrain between Sheffield and Rotherham stretches things a bit by sharing some regular rail track. What a fun conundrum!
The distinction between a tram and a train has more to do with the vehicle itself and its function and not so much on the infrastructure it runs on. I think tram-train is a light rail vehicle that is designed to function like a tram, but also serve distant/separate urban areas, going between each at faster-than-tram speeds.
There's the Silverton Tramway in New South Wales, which went nowhere near a street and was actually a railway (albeit a narrow gauged 3 foot 6 inches). Called a tramway to get around NSW regulations about what was a railway. The Wiki page gives an almost comical history of interstate and inter-union rivalry surrounding the line: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silverton_Tramway
There was also the Camden Tramway in NSW (closed 1962) , operated entirely by tank conversions of Jago's favourite 0-6-0 tender locos. It did though run alongside the Campbelltown-Camden Road for much of its length.
There was also a Silvertown Tramway in East London!
jago, your videos never fail to be interesting
Isn't a 'tram' defined (in the UK) by the 'Act' that enables it's construction - max axle weight, track standards, max speed, signalling and so on. How it's powered and passenger/non-passenger is irrelevant?
Thankfully it's a bit less confusing in Germany, anything on rail is just called "bahn" with an additional word to distinguish the type.
Straßenbahn = Street rail
Untergrundbahn = Underground rail
Schnellbahn = Quick rail (rail with it's own right of way inside a city)
Regionalbahn = Regional rail
etc.
And if you're not sure what type it is, just call it "Bahn" and pretend you know.
in germany trams are mostly called Strasenbahn and i think that puts it to the point a road train (Strassenbahn) for passenger transport that at least partly shares public roads
Tram; A train with indicators.
Oooo! That works, doesn't it?
Tram Buses? Well, from the land where streetcars are often called Trolleys (See San Diego, et al), such pretend trams on rubber tires are easily dismissed as Fake Trolleys, or Folleys. Note the care they give to hiding those big, rubber tires, like the cheap plastic disguised as wood on low-end 1970s cars. It is always the cheap and inferior substitute that has to pretend to be something it is not. It isn't like you see loads of trams with big circle designs on the side, trying to attract passengers by convincing them that these are really buses, right?
Fun Fact: "A Streetcar Named Desire" is the title of a famous play, referencing a New Orleans streetcar line that used to run in the city until 1948. That fact illustrates the durability of the term "streetcar" in the USA. On many LRT lines in the States, the cars even have gongs, although they are usually synthesized sounds. Real gongs were mounted under the operator's cab, with a simple mechanism activated by foot pedal. "Clang, Clang, Clang, went the Trolley!"/"Ding, Ding, Ding, went the Bell!" as "The Trolley Song" goes.
I love the long pause after giving the answer to the title question. Masterful editing and pacing !
Technically all of the U.K. railway network, (or at least ones that are connected to Weymouth) are trams, because, you said that part of the route has to be on the road, and Weymouth tramways is and connected to the national network, so every train in the U.K. is a tram
*was ☹
I believe the Weymouth quay branch has now been disconnected from the rail network
Technically the Weymouth Tramway hasn't existed since they removed it in 2021. And technically was a heavy rail line.
I was going to mention Weymouth too. They used to run class 4-REP and 4TC sets pulled by class 33 locos on that line. Definitely heavy rail! But the tracks have sadly been ripped up now.
But the Weymouth Tramway, when it existed, was not run by line of sight. The regular passenger service was run permissively, as indeed all railway lines in the UK are. That is, the signalman has to give permission for the driver to proceed. The only difference is that on the Weymouth Tramway, the signalman walked in front of the train carrying a red flag, giving permission for the train driver to follow. If the line was blocked at any point, the signalman would raise the flag to instruct the driver to stop.
Bus-Tram is NOT a tram, it doesn’t run on rails, it’s a bus…made by its Spanish manufacturer to look a bit like a tram by giving it a sloping front and partially covering its wheels (how long will that last when it needs maintenance?). In other words; trying to con the travelling public into thinking they’re getting a snazzier form of transport, when all it is is a cheap bus in a cheap frock from Matalan, which Irizar is no doubt charging a huge amount of money for. Still, we live in a scam world, so it’s just another scam. The end.
We had covered wheels articulated road vehicles in Leeds on a couple of routes.
A tram is a lightweight train that can run on the street and doesn't need (but can) use train signals. For example we have a "randstadrail" here in the Netherlands, that shares its tracks with a subway/metro from Rotterdam (to/from The Hauge) rides over old train railtrack (power is limited to 230V instead of the kilovolts heavy rail uses, for both the tram and metro). We even use 2 different terms here: tram and fast tram.
Historically there were three types of railway track defined as tramways, light railways and railways - each governed by different legislation and having no regard to the type of power used to move the vehicles, nor indeed the cargo. Line speed, fencing and signalling regulations defined each one. Tramways are, generally speaking, not fenced off from the public. Something which runs on a tramway is a tram car.
🍺🇮🇪🍺🇮🇪🍺🇮🇪🍺🇮🇪 DUBLIN MENTIONED 🍺🇮🇪🍺🇮🇪🍺🇮🇪🍺🇮🇪 WHAT THE HELL IS A METRO
🍻 An urban, fully off-road public transport mode on its own right of way, usually achieved by putting the stations in tunnels or on viaducts/embankments. Famous examples include the London Underground, the Paris Metro, the NYC Subway and the Chicago El. Dublin has planned to build a metro for a long time, often approving it and then cancelling it again.
@@lazrseagull54 oh I know. That's the joke. Metrolink constantly looks like it's ready to start kicking off, but like everything in this place it's plagued by NIMBY vampires. It's why Dublin has an acute housing crisis and everything here feels smaller than it should for quite a sizeable metropolitan area approaching 3 million. Everything here is bottlenecked.
A small Austin badged British Leyland car produced between 1980 and 1998. You're welcome. 🙂
0:00 🚋 The video explores the definition of trams and their varied characteristics.
1:14 ⚡ Trams are traditionally defined as passenger vehicles running on electricity-powered overhead cables on public roads with rails.
3:07 🚂 Trams historically used diverse power sources, including horses, steam, and electricity; electricity isn't a strict requirement.
4:32 🚌 Vehicles like tram buses blur the definition by resembling trams but operate differently, using Pantagraph recharging and internal layouts similar to trams.
5:16 🚦 Defining trams is complex; their characteristics vary from being passenger vehicles to using parallel rails for guidance, differing from traditional trains in operations.
6:05 🚊 UK tram industry defines trams as vehicles running wholly or partly along streets for passengers, guided by parallel rails, and allowing line of sight operation.
6:38 🚦 Trams operate differently from trains, assuming potential obstacles on tracks, allowing close operation, quick stops, and at present, cannot be driverless.
6:52 🚈 Trams are generally considered light rail vehicles, suitable for street running and not classified as heavy rail.
7:17 📏 Defining a tram is challenging; characteristics vary, including electric power, passenger use, street capability, and line of sight operation.
@dameanvil Thx! Copied and pasted for reference 👍🏿
To further add to the confusion:
I live in Vienna/Austria which has an extensive tram network. There is a route almost directly from the city center which follows the street for a while but has a section of track which is under the ground. On this section vehicles use block signaling instead of the line-of-sight operation mode they use on almost all other parts of the system. The tracks then emerge from under the ground and continue running on the street. At Meidling rail station the tracks continue running on the street and there is tram line 62 which runs from the city center towards this point and continues to run on street level.
However there is another line called "Wiener Lokalbahn" (which translates to "Vienna local train") running on the same track so far but now branching off to continue on mainline tracks, complete with block signaling and tracks separated from the street. They use island platforms on some stops and even share the track with regular heavy rail (only used for freight trains though). They run to the city of Baden, a town approx. 30 km south of the city, where the tracks start running on the street again until they hit their terminus in the city center.
There are two kinds of rolling stock used, the older of which are trains made by Bombardier which, except for details like door + seat layout, interior design, presence of side-mirrors, etc., are identical to the trains used on underground line U6.
So, you have a public transport line line which is operated as a street level tram, an underground tram, a street level tram again, a main-line railway and then a street level tram again, all while using underground rolling stock.
I challenge you to show me a line which combines more different types of train-systems. 🙂
In Nice in France it amazes me to see the trams initially had no overhead wires to only see at covered stations they raised their pantograph to charge great concept. Also the fact they had grass etc just astounded me initially
Sheffields Supertrams are heavy rail.
Gareth Dennis has a flowchart about classifying transport systems.
Came here looking mention of the Not A Metro Sorter
Best end to a video ever. A non-specific noise that means 'dunno' that every one will get.
Keep up the good work, have a splendid 2024, and I look forward to more vids.
And for his next trick, Mr Hazzard Will explain tram-trains (class 398 in Wales and class 399 in South Yorkshire)…
Really enjoyed this video and the changing definition of tram! Missed opportunity to show the old trams still running in HK, whenever I go on business I always love riding the tram up and down central HK for a single dollar! (Largest double deck tram fleet in the world I believe and electric from day 1 in 1904)
One dollar? That was decades ago. The tram fare for adults in Hong Kong is now 3 HKD (30p). The old cars have been replaced in the intervening years and is cast from aluminium. There are the occasional iron cast cars from a few decades ago and fanciful versions for private parties. The tram route runs along the old coastline of HK Island from a century ago and has not changed. It's nicknamed Ding-Ding by the locals from the characteristic warning signal to warn cyclists.😊
Clang, clang went the trolley, ding ding went the bell.
This required some exceptionally clear thinking to put together, methinks. Complex, so many ifs and buts, but all beautifully put together to make perfect sense. Respect.
I would argue that any sort of light rail can be classified as tram. And yes that means I don't count tram-shaped buses and rubber-tired-rail-guided buses as trams.
As a St. Louisan, any light rail vehicle that is primarily street-running with overhead power will always be a TROLLEY! :]
Zing!
@@iankemp1131 nah… Ding Ding Ding went the trolley Ring Ring Ring went the bell. ;]
@@StLouis-yu9iz But surely the original is ...
… Clang, clang, clang went the trolley
Ding, ding, ding went the bell
Zing, zing, zing went my heartstrings ...
@@iankemp1131 yaassss
Seaton Tramway provides a good example of a tram that doesn't follow the UK Tram rules. It does not have any on-street running, and uses tokens and rudimentary signals for control (Although it's slow enough that LOS would avoid collisons, the signals are just to keep trams in their passing loops). And yet no-one would reasonably argue that it's actually a train, not a tram.
In one sense the difference arises because it's a heritage tramway so you don't want to introduce street running just for the sake of it. Same could apply to Crich.
A number of traditional trams ran partially on off-road tracks called reservations.
Another characteristic that usually differentiates trams from trains is that they do not have toilets. I am told this will be the case with those stretches of the South Wales Metro that employ train-trams. They will not have low floors because they will be using BR legacy high platforms, and they will also inherit many stations with inadequate, frequently vandalised or no toilets. My guess is people will soon get used to that, in just the same way that they do not usually expect toilets on commuter buses, in their own cars, on their own bikes, or while they are walking to work. They will just have to develop regular toilet habits, which should also mean more sensible eating and drinking habits. ;-) (In other words, avoid drinking too many Banks' Ales the night before a workday.) But if caught short, you can always hop off at a bigger station with toilets nearby, or hop off at a rural halt and just dive behind the nearest convenient bush. And then hop back on the next (higher frequency) tram. Or arrive a bit earlier and use the more comfortable facilities at your workplace. Now retired, I have all the time in the World to sit and ponder such weighty issues. 😂 But somewhat more practically it is because I want to live long enough to see well thought-out metro systems where I live in Southern Thailand. Certainly, the locals are not too spoiled by numerous places to do their ablutions on the way to work. They won't be expecting too much travel time convenience, and so already have the ingrained habits to deal with it well. Mustn't grumble!
The Jerusalem system is called 'light rail', but runs along a street, and contends with cars. The Tel-Aviv system (the first of 3 lines just opened, the others are well advanced) is also called light rail but runs in it's own system, and spends a lot of time underground (the only bit 'open' are the crossing in the open section).
If it runs on its own system mostly, then it's valid to call it Light Rail.