Funny to a 14 year old boy in 1980 (which is probably an insult to 14 year old boys in 1980). In 2021 it's pathetic and a little creepy. Or to put it motoring terms refered to in another AE review, it's like a CD player in the latest land cruiser. Still, the technical content is compelling and otherwise amusing.
Let’s not forget about the reduced maintenance and less components to break on a Toyota hybrid such as, no serpentine belt to replace, no starter motor, no alternator and brake pads last in excess of 250,000 klms as they hardly get used unless you are ridiculously heavy on the brake pedal.
Love your stuff John. Knowing some well heeled cab drivers, the Toyota hybrid has been the go to for near on 20 years now. Getting on the plus side of 500,000kms before needing to spend a few grand. All cars have their issues. But that is a pretty big endorsement. The reliability and resale (imagined or factual) of the Toyota across all current models is higher, which is also something worth factoring in.
No Anthony, all have sinned. Barnarby, you and me will all give an account for the lives we live. Accept God's free gift of salvation in Christ Jesus and you will no longer stand in condemnation.
Gets my upvote; a hybrid system can make sense in a lot of situations (i.e. places with suboptimal charging networks) whilst still being able to recover and reuse kinetic energy.
Not anti EV - gran'ma duck had one. They have a place. Set some early land speed records. But why would you choose to drive around sitting on top of 400, 500, 600 kg of flammable explosive intractable toxic waste?
I rented a hybrid Corolla at Brissy airport. Drove to Noosa, spent three days driving gently around Noosaville and the beach, then drove back to the airport. Didn’t use the odometer, but when I filled up, I put in 11 litres!!! Couldn’t believe it. 👍
After driving an SUV in which I was putting 500 dollars of fuel in a month, I was looking for something cheaper to operate. I did quite a bit of research between Hybirds, PHEV, and pure electric. I came to a lot of the same conclusions you did regarding "Self Charging" Hybrids. When it came to pure electric, I wasn't comfortable with the charging infrastructure and didn't want to be one of those poor suckers waiting 8 house to even use a charger on busy travel weekends. I ended up landing on the the Sorento PHEV. for my use case, I'm saving between 350 and 400 in fuel each month. Over a 7-8 year ownership, I should see significant realized savings even after a potential battery replacement. Also, my kids where quite happy because they're starting to think more and more about the environment. I didn't tell them that there is potential that the battery production is potentially carbon positive. ha
@@yggdrasil9039 I’m in Canada, and it wasn’t until I started looking for chargers did I realize how far the infrastructure needs to come. But even charging at home the PHEV is perfect for my family. So far I’ve averaged 2.1L / 100 KM in the city.
John most cabs in AU are hybrid Prius. The milage is pretty huge on them but drivers I speak to love the reliability. Yes complexity will lead to unreliability. I just don't see this is cabs that owners have done nearly 1 million km's
Just to shorten my previous post Give up being bias against Toyota I know taxi drivers who get 650,000km life cycles from the battery in Toyota hybrids Try doing that in a Tesla or Hyundai
You are spot on with the 'list your reasons for wanting' process. I went through my reasons for wanting a hybrid suv before I bought my lexus rx450h and they were as follows: No turbo, no dpf or egr issues (specifically diesel related), good mpg, lower nox (yes I know co2 is higher with petrol engines but at least nox is lower), space, a high vehicle mass (for better towing vehicle to trailor weight ratio), decent power (300+ bhp), and reliability (lexus). I also hate German cars (irrational reason but relevant in decision making process). I also wanted a smooth running, quiet vehicle which doesn't have any badge snobbery. Lastly, I've had japanese vehicles for 40 years and they've never let me down. I made a list before I bought and I'm happy with the purchase, so great advice John 👍
The hybrid AWD RAV4 has the highest power and torque outputs in the entire RAV4 range. The small extra cost is similar to other car brands offering the option to upgrade to a turbo diesel or higher performance engine for an added cost. If potential RAV4 buyers want the “premium” engine choice, they have to choose a hybrid. There are no turbo petrol or diesel engine choices in the RAV4 range. I got a RAV4 Cruiser Hybrid AWD because I liked the design, size, features and value. I don’t pretend to be saving the planet or even saving money. To me, the fuel efficiency and lower emissions are just nice bonuses of this powertrain.
@@GuitarsRockForever I was shopping for a mid sized SUV (not a sports car or truck) and the RAV4 ticked the right boxes for me. Are you suggesting that choosing the better engine choice in the RAV4 range somehow indicates that I should’ve bought a different kind of car altogether? I guess you’re the kind of person who only buys base model poverty spec cars, right? Go back to enjoying your plastic hub caps and free appliance white paint job.
Really enjoyed that perspective John, you say hybrids can be complex, ok sure but DPFs, direct injection systems and all the plumbing that has to support a petrol burner certainly is complex too. Can’t wait until we have more full EV options here like the rest of the world (eg Rivian)
We've been base model kluger owners now coming into our third generation, average 16,000km a year and the 2016 model we had averaged 16L/100km it's 5 year life with us. The hybrid version of the new Kluger costs only $2500 more than the V6, and you don't just get the hybrid system, you get a full climate control that the base model doesn't have. Fuel use wise we've averaged 7.1L/100km with the 2021 Kluger over the old one, that's an 8.9L saving, and quality fuel (we only use 98 ever) is over $2 a litre. That's a saving of $2,848 every year we own it, and assuming we replace at the 5 year mark that will be $11,740 saved over buying the V6, less fuel burned, and frankly I'd call this worthwhile. The Trade in will also be higher, as in 5 years it will still be in peak condition and hybrids will be more in demand, not everyone can afford a $60k car. We would have gone the Sorento PHEV but it's $24k more onroad, and I would not trust their first attempt at such a complex engine, lets face it KIA have come a very long way indeed but they're not as reliable I would say, yet. Maybe in BEV forms and that will be our next car... hybrid is a one car stepping stone from fat ICE, whilst the EV infrastructure is sorted out. Also the Sorento...still nowhere to be seen here in AUS, so even if the price weren't quite so hight it's stil impossible to buy one in October 21.
How do you compare the drive between v6 and hybrid? I’m thinking if the hybrid is underpowered and as per John the battery will degrade and the power will reduce further! But your 16L/100 km on v6 scares me!!
Thanks John for the easiest to understand, dumbed down description of the difference between a Petrol Hybrid and a PHEV that I have found anywhere on RUclips. It just makes it so clear that Petrol Hybrids are essentially a very slightly more efficient ICE vehicle, whereas PHEVs are at least true EVs, just ones that don’t dare to get off their training wheels and instead lug around a big heavy range extender plus associated fuel to run it everywhere they go. And yes, there’s no point in dipping your toes with EVs. Best to stick with your old clunker for a few more years when the switch is well and truly underway and then get a much much better EV for much less money.
Hi John, another good one. As someone who drives about 45,000 k per year [many 'off road'] I never complain at the cost of fuel....It is still cheaper, per litre, than bottled water .. and it falls from the sky for free if you wish to catch it...
Since 2017, I watch your videos ( I was in New Zealand at that time). 2022, in Australia I still watch you videos and they make more sense after living here. You need an award John .
I would argue that Toyota "self-charging" (agree on the ridiculousness of this term) Hybrids are _mechanically_ less complex than their petrol-only brethren. The main reason to that is their lack of a traditional gearbox and clutch assembly. Instead they have a much more mechanically simple set of planetary gears, permanently coupled to all main drivetrain components. The _electronics_ bit is, however, fair bit more complex indeed. Another loss of complexity is the lack of turbo and all related bits, which many modern petrol-only variants carry. For me the primary benefits of a hybrid (over petrol-only) is the noticeably faster throttle response and smoother acceleration curve. Also, the "self-charging" hybrids are only 50-100 kg heavier than their petrol-only siblings of same configuration, which for a car reaching 2 tons kerb weight is but a drop in the ocean.
Before I even watch the video. I will say my opinion. I owned a Kia Sorento diesel, it's was a good car but I definitely prefer the hybrid. It's much quieter, more comfy and more joy to drive than the noisy vibrating diesel. I do 60k per year. Driven a 2018 toyota camry hybrid and Rav4 hybrid. They are both great cars for city, I got as low as 3 litres/100k. It took me from Sydney to Melbourne on 40 litres, so even better than a diesel and even more comfortable. It definitely produce a lot less Carbon emissions than a dirty diesel. It's the most sensible choice as the fuel prices are on the rise. It also does up to 1 million kilometres, thanks to the help of the electric engine. I don't think any other car other than a Toyota hybrid is capable of that. It holds its value extremely well, better than any other car. Regarding the hybrid battery, you have plenty of choices, from the new company recycling them in Melbourne to Alibaba where you can get one for 3000 dollars! It's usually replaced after 230k! The cheapest to service ever, it usually costs me 100 to 200 dollars to service including oil and filter and other consumables like brakes, brake pads, air filter, etc. It requires minimum amount of maintenance, maybe the extra thing is to clean the battery cooling fan and air intake manifold which only costs a 100 bucks every couple of years. From my experience and honest opinion, you can't beat a hybrid car.
One of the economies of an EV or even a standard type hybrid is the lack of wear on the brakes. Using the electric motor as a generator to charge the battery means not using the brakes to slow down so you save twice - once on fuel and again on brake maintenance.
@@rais1953 very true, his comparison between fuel consumption figures is not accurate. Fuel consumption figures are only true for the hybrid, but for the normal Rav4, the average for such a heavy car would be around 9 L/100k for mixed driving. No way you'd get the claimed 6.5 litres, unless you're travelling on the highway. So the actual saving on fuel would be around at least 40%
Haitham 100% correct my hybrid averages 6 normal 2.5 engine would be 9 or even 10 there a reason all the taxi go them yes they do heaps more ks but also save big on brakes and they will do about a million ks if you want to keep it forever
@@yggdrasil9039 I wanted a plug in hybrid but, as we heard in the video, the savings on running costs would have to cover the much higher purchase price. I couldn't make that work for me within a few years so I shopped for a small hatchback.
I really love my top of the line Hybrid Camry but I agree with everything you said John. But I didn't buy it to save money, I liked the car and it does save on some emissions hopefully. My other car is a diesel D-max and though that is not 'green' I plan on keeping it for quite a long time as it is also the environmentally responsible thing to do if you buy good quality then keep it and maintain it for as long as practical or feasible rather than just upgrading every 2 or 3 years.
The maths of buying a $26000 cheap new car that only does 9 ltr/100 klm is far more economical than buying a $40000 car that does 7 ltr/100klm. The extra cost in fuel is only about $150 /year. If you own it 10 years you've saved yourself $10000 + or -
Why did my comment to another video turn up in this video? WTF RUclips! I have noticed a lot of strange behaviour with YT replies to comments. Above comment has absolutely nothing to do with this video.
Depends how much you drive. If you are driving 50,000km a year, hybrid is the way to go. You will recoup the extra few thousand in under a year. The drive experience is far more pleasant with the engine off half the time when coasting to a stop, driving slowly in traffic, or going downhill as well.
@@yggdrasil9039 this... I considered doing hybrid but the cost doesn't justify it since I have a short commute. Sure I'll save gas but I pay more into fees and insurance. I drive 16km a day, 6 days a week.
@@meh4062 OK, fair enough, though a PHEV would mean you'd never have to pay for petrol if your commute is that short. Another thing I'll say in hybrid's favour though (at least the Toyota system afaik) is that it's a simpler design and far less wear and tear on the engine. The idea that the hybrid engine is more complex because you've got two drivetrains is a myth. The whole system is completely redesigned. Someone on YT did a breakdown of a Toyota Prius and took the engine out to inspect and after 300,000km said the engine, piston rings etc etc still looked brand new. Very little stress on the engine and rarely goes above 4000rpm.
I did many of these sums when deciding what was best to do for my personal CO2 emissions. As I only drive 10,000kms a year, I kept my old car and used the money I saved by not replacing it and replaced my gas boiler with a heat pump. That saved 4,000kg of CO2 in the first year alone. (We need heating here in the UK).
"Thank you for sticking with me this long" - I understand Tiffany probably has a pretty short attention span, but I'm sure even she can hold on for 2 minutes
The only future problem with a plug-in hybrid is that like it's full EV brother/sister they will eventually have to pay RUC while the normal ICE and standard hybrid never will, here in NZ RUC is currently $76 per 1000km, however currently exempt on EV
The petrol ice and petrol hybrid vehicle owners in NZ are paying a fair amount of 'petrol tax' to the Government. In Auckland there is an extra petrol/ fuel tax too. NZ sits about mid-table when international petrol prices plus fuel taxes are compared. NZ gov could in the future very likely raise the petrol/ diesel tax higher to make the operating fossil fuel vehicles more and more expensive to push people to plug in battery or hydrogen vehicles (and into hydrogen/ electric buses, trains and onto bicycles and e-motorcycles and horses etc if they cannot afford their own electric vehicles) Lithium batteries will be recycled if economic or rules are enforced to do so, Mitsubishi NZ was sending batteries to Belgium to be recycled, other NZ used lithium batteries/ components go to South Korea for reprocessing.
If NZ raises fuel tax on fossil fuels so people buy hybrids then its a tax on lower income families there or is NZ governments going to subsidise hybrid cars for low income families! Not bloody likely
@@scoundragon Well we currently do have a subsidy on EV of $8600 which is not much help when the average EV costs $60-$70k! And a lesser amount of $5750 on plug-in hybrids which is still not much help as again as again they cost $50k plus. I guess the best deal is for Japanese second hand imports that can cost as little as $9k for an older Nissan Leaf are able to get a $3450 rebate.
Don't forget to factor in the savings on Brake replacements. 300k km's in a hybrid Camry and my Brakes are still 80%. Maybe over the 80k km's that may be 2 sets of front and a set of rears. I'm guessing at the cost, brakes and rotors, maybe $1500 to $2000 for that. So the $2500 saving in fuel over 80k km's could be $4000 up. So there's that
Not to mention how nasty those bit's of dust from the pads and disks are to human health. Saw a RUclips video of some environmentalist, so numbers could be completely off, stating that 60% of the asthma causing particles are from brakes and tyres. Maybe regen braking can making a difference with these levels?
@@Low760 DBA front rotors $200 pair Bendix front pads $70 DBA rear rotors $216 Bendix Rear pads $70 Labour $300 Total $856 Using discounted online quality parts, supplying parts yourself. At least $1000 supply and fit from a workshop, probably $1500 genuine from Toyota. $600 would be cheap Chinese rubbish using backyard Freddy the taxi repair man.
Roof covered here too: 38 kWh harvested today! :) Shame not to have an EV to put the excess into though, but I'm not buying one as long as we have EV exclusive km taxes and no carbon taxes - as well as no incentives for long range EVs in Victoria.
A few thoughts from myself, the owner of a 10 year old secondhand toyota hybrid. I fully agree that they don't make sense financially to buy new unless you drive a huge number of kms. However, secondhand they are a great deal as they cost no more than a regular petrol version. Also don't forget to factor in the lower maintenance cost of hybrids. For example the brakes in hybrids last many times longer than on other cars as the regen does most of the work. Also the engine spends less time running so can be serviced less frequently. There is also no belts, pulleys, alternator or starter and the tiny 12v battery lasts longer than in other cars as it's not having to start an engine. Also on battery costs, Fortunately mine is still going strong after 10 years and averages 4.8l per 100km fuel economy and typically they last around 15 years. However you do not have to spend the full price to buy a new battery as there are secondhand and rebuilt options available as well as replacing individual cells. A rebuilt battery for example costs about as much as a full brake job on a regular car. Hybrids make a lot of sense for those who do a lot of driving and are buying secondhand which is what I do. The thing that will kill a hybrid battery is having the car sitting around unused. So if you only drive short distance or infrequently a hybrid may not be a good choice.
Yes , you can’t buy a new replacement battery for Toyota HEV in “Shitsville” the only option is a rebuilt battery , which Toyota will pay half …..according to the salesman at Charlestown Toyota last Sunday .
i am considering a second hand hybrid myself - my old concern is the replacement cost of a the inverter and battery - though i should probable get a quote on replacement costs before completely riding them off as a option
@@abogoni Inverter problems are very rare but not unheard of. Keep your inverter coolant maintained and you should be safe. Before I bought mine I checked the cost of batteries in my area and realised the cost was no worse than many repairs on normal cars and was something I can live with.
@@Whisperhollow That's why the hybrid battery is cooled by air coming from inside the car an why the A/C turn on automatically when the battery get hot.
Totally accurate comment about getting the smallest vehicle possible. I recently did a fuel economy test on my 2 cars which is on my channel. One is a 2.0T 2.5L 2006 subaru forester (125hp) and my 1.5T 3.0L 94' modified Toyota Supra (415hp). Normal driving gives me much better fuel economy with the Supra purely because of power to weight. So with that in mind for ultimate fuel savings you want a car that is as light as possible so it doesn't have to work as hard to get you up to speed. Because a hybrid has so much extra weight it almost cancelles out any benefits.
Just as Covid19 struck, Scomo said re EV's (paraphasing here) > "That's the end of the Aussie weekend." The COAL ITION happily goes along with these skyjerks
Hi John. Being something of a physics nut, I always enjoy your detailed explanations of so many things. Before I bought my 2019 Subaru Forester, I did look closely at Hybrid and Plugin Hybrids. My usual long trips are Carnarvon-Perth and back, which is around 950km on mostly very flat and straight roads, with not many hills or stops in the whole trip to assist with regenerative braking. Usually I stop overnight half way, but not always. I decided to stick with ICE rather than go hybrid, as on a long trip (450km+), the hybrid types seemed to me to be a lot dead weight to drag around without adding any benefit at all. I have often thought it strange that this lack of benefit on long trips is not more clearly considered by commentators. However, my wife often tells me I am wrong! My local driving is only a few kilometres around town per week, where I do agree that both hybrid types would be beneficial. I do have one small query about your report on the Toyota Rav 4 hybrid. I am fairly sure you said that a hybrid's battery is ONLY charged by regenerative braking and the like. However, It is my understanding that hybrids also recharge via the ICE engine itself. That is what Toyota says on their website, for example. Was this a slip of the clutch on your part? 😁
For your long trips driving Subaru Forester is probably better choice. My 2010 Subaru Forester has still great economy on open roads or freeway (as low as 5.3l/100km depends how heavy is your foot and quality of fuel). But in the city it jumps to 13l/100km, combine average around 9l/100km. New 2021 RAW4 Hybrid Cruiser combine average 5.6l/100km. I haven't done any long trips so cant comment on that. I have to mention RAW4 Hybrid has about 9dB less noise in the cabin than 2010 Subaru Forester. They both very good cars!
HYBRID CARS ARE THE BEST! LOVE MY TOYOTA HYBRID IT STILL WORKS PERFECT AFTER 10 YEARS BATTERY STILL WORKS PERFECT AND IT STILL CAN DRIVE AROUND ON EV ONLY MODE AND THE ELECTRIC MOTORS WORK AT ALL SPEED EVEN LIKE 120KPH
As always, very entertaining and highly informative. Really impressed by the way you put it into a global context, the more effective ways to reduce our carbon footprint and just how difficult it is to calculate the upstream energy inputs.
Great video again! Note however that HEV or PHEV drive much better in town than a conventional internal combustion engine with stop&start technology or even a mild-hybrid. It gives you a relaxing feeling when driving in traffic jams that's simply priceless (essentially because there are no vibrations at low speeds when in electric). Inching forward with the electric motor is also natural and safe. I replaced my bmw series 2 diesel (DCT transmission) by the same model but the PHEV version with the torque converter transmission. Reduced consumption from 4.6L/100km to 2.4L/100km adopting the same driving style. 50km in pure electric is the key. So, if you do a lot of city driving, then you definitely want a hybrid. BUT!!! please check if the transmission is a dual clutch (DCT). If it is, just run away. DCTs are fast and super fun but not if you drive a lot in town. Inching forward with this transmission will destroy it without you knowing (prepare for spending some money...), and the fuel consumption reduction is simply not significant. Hybrids are great, PHEVs are better BUT with a torque converter transmission or a e-CVT (for Toyotas, Hondas...). Otherwise, and if you do only a few miles a day, pick instead a cheap (very much) used 100% EV (a Zoe or a Leaf with something like >70% of battery health) and after a few years of usage throw it directly to the recycle bin as it will worth nothing by then!
Have been driving Toyota hybrids for almost 4 years now. And I tell you what I will never go back to a normal car or even electric car for that matter. As long as these hybrids are available.
Toyota's hybrid system doesn't only charge using regenerative braking - the combustion engine is also used for charging. I agree though - "self charging" isn't the right term to use.
@@AutoExpertJC I'm not sure it's "insane" - if it didn't save fuel, Toyota wouldn't have implemented it - there's no need to keep the battery charged in their system, so the ONLY reason for allowing the ICE to charge the battery would be for efficiency.
@@gregsullivan7408 What John means by "insanity" is burning fuel to charge a battery, to then use that energy later to move the vehicle is insanity because you waste energy by doing that process (2nd Law). It's better to just not have the heavy battery and use that same fuel to turn the wheels.
@@ScottMurrayBestFamilyCars So are you saying Toyota's hybrid system doesn't make any sense? I hope not, because it does make sense - as John says, it's about 28% more efficient. It has been highly successful.
There are penalties associated with owning a small car regarding safety. I frequently see the aftermath of accidents involving small cars, even the small cars with 5 stars.
I enjoyed this video. It was informative and entertaining, a combination that's truly rare these days. We are looking at a RAV-4 hybrid and the missus is gonna be disappointed when I force her to sit through this video.
I agree. Hybrids a great if one really does over 25000km per year (around 500km per week). Also saving an upfront cost of 25% compared to an SUV with a smaller car is very clear. However the real life savings of the equivalent Hybrid RAV 4 compared to the petrol only are greater than on paper from what I have observed.
Thanks John, this has really helped me make a better decision (i.e. not getting a hybrid). Will you be putting out any similar videos comparing EVs with petrol/diesel cars?
He did one in the past that basically said "If Australia keeps burning coal" 1) Coal to EV works out about the same CO2 as ICE 2) Abandon all hope of a livable planet if we are counting on the politicians getting it right.
No and it does not excuse what he did to his wife and children. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Well, just check the record: churches have been abusing children for very long time, the "higher authority in the sky" has no problem with it what so ever.
@@GuitarsRockForever I have always wondered how the " Holier than Thou" set reconsile themselves with that one, they always seem to have reasons to cover the peculiarities of their beliefs.
I have a 2019 Prius PHEV. Last fill saw me travel 1,466kms for 12.9l of ULP and $22. 0.88l/100kms. The remaining power/"fuel" came from our solar panels and batteries. The car also has a solar panel roof that has so far generated 241kW. You won't believe I'm a petrolhead But, I hate paying for fuel and seeing those A$s go to the Arabs etc. WRT the RAV4 Physio video, I'd recommend a Prius to him, you'd be amazed how much you can get in one. I've had 9 green treated pine sleepers in the back of mine with the rear door closed to go home. You should've seen the look on the Hardware Store staff faces as I drove off! And yes JC the "Risk Factor" was High! Love your work JC.
I've just bought a new hybrid (Honda Jazz and, in the UK now only available as a hybrid) and it is much better to drive than its predecessor but you are right it would have been greener to keep my old Honda Jazz!
I have driven the Honda Jazz eHev and was really disappointed with the high fuel consumption at 5.1L/100kms when on motorways with steep climbs and downhill. The regen charged the tiny battery real fast but the battery was also discharge really fast! The only benefit it seems was at traffic lights and for a short distance at low speed. This sounds crazy but sadly it’s true! There goes the hybrids for me. Don’t get me wrong, the eHev is a great little car to drive! Not sure what I was saving tbh, if any.
A very logical look at the Hybrid case. Thanks for expelling those words to the public. I'm sure those conventional print/online automotive clowns wouldn't dare to upset their advertiser's. Always a good laugh as well John, just wanted to thank you for your videos especially during covid lockdowns we've had in Melbourne, it's always a pleasure to watch your videos and take my mind off everything else. Cheers 🍻
mate this comparison between your Ryobi battery and each different battery vehicle was genius! I actually feel like I finally really understand the difference. You’ve provided much needed perspective for me as I consider which vehicle to buy.
Only problem is comparing a Ryobi Appliance battery to and oversized HE, HP EV battery is idiotic at best. The chemical composition and physical properties couldn’t be more different. It’s like comparing Apples M2 chip to 9 pocket calculators. You think I’m wrong? By all means strap 9 Ryobi specials together and stick them in a RAV4. See what happens.
awesome video - im currently looking at buying a used tarago estima hybrid to save on fuel - thanks for helping people like myself see the bigger picture if im driving say 15K a year and the hybrid has a fuel consumption of about 5.5L/100 compared to a standard tarago which gets about 8.5L/100 thats 3L/100 of savings - which over 15K is 765 a year - which seems okay at first glace until you take into account other factors like the total cost of the car - long term reliability - and other factors like do i really need a big car - do i buy 1500 of coffee a year - do i buy 3000 of lunch a year - am i paying 1000 a year in interest on a car loan - is my car depreciating 2000 a year now the 750 saving in fuel looks less attractive
Helped more than you think. I couldn't give a stuff about the planet. I was looking at saving money, looks like I'll stick with the Forester and STOP buying coffee. Thanks for all the effort you put into your great videos.
The Rav4 hybrid will save the owner petrol money over the lifetime of the car and has a better torque band. For a CVT, that second point is very important. If somebody's heart is set on a Rav4, choosing the hybrid over the petrol is a no-brainer, especially if you plan on holding onto your vehicle.
Video would be a bit better if you mentioned the fact that the resale value of Toyota hybrids offsets the initial 2.5k mark-up. I'm reality if you are an average car buyer who gets a new car every 6-7 years (correct me if that if wrong, just recalling from memory). You won't have to worry about the battery failing as it will be under warranty, your resale value will be 2-3k higher than an ice only and in the meanwhile you will have the benefit of fuel savings, while driving the car you enjoy. Which if you drive more than the average Australian it will be to a considerable amount over the lifetime of the vehicle. With in most cases almost no additional cost due to the resale value offset. With ever increasing inflation and fuel prices, currently $2/l every second week it's a no brainer. Yes if it's for virtuous and planet saving reasons, no it's not a valid reason to buy one. But if you like a specific Toyota vehicle and you are dead set on buying that specific model (Ie Camry, rav4, ect), just buy the hybrid variant of it. In fact if you want any Camry aside from the base model it will be a hybrid by default, 70% of Camrys sold in Aus in 2020 were hybrids..
Bingo. Other than savings in fuel, resale was a factor in me in choosing a hybrid. Having the electric torque down low is great for about-town drivability and smoothness as well.
Toyota's Hybrid Synergy drive is not just a means for recapturing wasted braking energy to improve overall efficiency. The Synergy drive transmission is surprisingly simple and far more reliable/durable than the typical modern transmission in competing vehicles. I advocate for Toyota's Hybrid vehicles mainly for their superior durability and reliability. They are extremely popular in some of the most abusive and demanding markets - such as with taxicabs and Ubers in New York City. The concept of two electric motor/generators separated by a simple heavy duty planetary power splitter is a stroke of genius that coupled with Toyota's reliable electronic controls has transformed the industry for the better.
How does the Beet Rooter explain how the fellow in the sky dodges all the lightning bolts when the thousands of Ryobi 36V bricks up there started randomly discharging during some of our recent violent storms? Must as "agile" as a polly at question time.
would you not save on brakes and any other components? would the electric engine save stress of the ICE engine, prolonging the life of the more complex ICE engine? im in melbourne, the urban fuel difference on the corollas is 2.5L per 100km. but having the engine idle while stuck in traffic for an hour, how much of an impact does that have?
A lot of good points here, including the environmental cost of embodied energy and of sourcing materials like cobalt used in manufacturing batteries and end-of-life disposal. The main factors that have put me off buying a hybrid are battery degradation and wear on other components like inverters, all of which are expensive to replace. Apart from all that, it's difficult to get important technical information on things like the battery chemistry used by particular models, and this applies to EVs as well. For example, Toyota used NiMH batteries in its hybrids for many years, but now they are being replaced by Lithium batteries, however they don't go out of their way to inform the public and it's hard to find out what particular chemistry they use; and nobody knows how long they will last. This is not helped by the mainstream motoring press, which is more concerned with cupholder size and sheer performance than technical details on how a car works. This is why so many cars now are full of soft-touch interiors and have turbo-charged engines with more acceleration than a normal person needs, but you have to park them outside in case they catch fire. And that's just ICE cars, never mind the hazards associated with Lithium batteries. There's a reason for airline restrictions on lithium batteries, but what happens on the ground in the event of a car accident involving a wholly or partly electrified vehicle? I'll keep my almost 15-year-old naturally aspirated manual car until it becomes unroadworthy and/or uneconomical to run rather than buy something that's effectively disposable after half that time. I still get more or less the same mileage from it as when it was new. On the other hand, the auto industry, like a lot of the modern world, is advancing progressively backwards.
I have a 2022 Volvo V60 T8 Recharge PHEV long range. (18.8 kwh battery) It's a wagon. I love that. (I do not like SUVs) It's got 460 combined Hp. Zoom! 0-100 in 4.5 sec. I love that. It goes up to 90 km on electric alone. Pleasant. (Not fast). It recharges in 5.5 hours from my full house solar system. Kinda feels good. 90km on a daily basis covers 80% of my general transportation all "free" from the sun. Nice. The longer distances on the gas engine means zero range anxiety and freedom to go anywhere anytime. The gas engine has 313 hp alone and is remarkably smooth and quiet. The tech management of a front wheel drive gas engine and rear wheel drive electric happens remarkably seamlessly. Astonishing really. The quality fit and finish is impressive. Good long term warranty. It ticks a lot of boxes. Resale value? Well can't have everything. But for my current interests it's pretty darn good. I sold my Mercedes C43 AMG and I've not really lost anything and gained in a bunch of areas. Happy like crazy. And my wife loves it too which is a huge bonus! 😁
Hi John, Purchased a 2021 Toyota Camry Hybrid. Absolutely love it !. Best car I have ever owned and I've mucked around with HSV'S & FPV. I love the fuel economy and the quietness. Air con on, urban driving and it indicates 4.2 l / 100. I love that you don't have to plug in, don't have to worry about range although it indicates 1089kms per tank of fuel. I must admit I chickened out at 1000 klms, but hey I'm happy with that. Because you won't catch me pushing the car on the side of the road. But at least I can go wherever I like and not be dictated to by a charging station or have to wait 8 hrs at Dingo Piss Ck. I'm hanging onto this one because the price of fuel is only going to go up and seldomly goes down. Your point about re couping costs?. I don't exactly subscribe to your concepts because on the weekends I do a bit of moonlighting ( Uber) and I can do $600 dollars of work each week and fill up fortnightly. I must admit I've had to re learn how to drive the car. Rolling around town and feather the accelerator and you'll get great economy. I wonder on highway cycle can I go from Brisbane to Sydney on one tank?. I shed a tear for those suckered driving their Range Rovers filling up with 98 octane fuel at almost $2 a litre. 😝😝😝
I rather choose the RAV hybrid over the Mitsubishi PHEV any day. I would have chosen the RAV4 Prime but as you say it’s not available here and no doubt will be overpriced. I understand over 500,000 Americans bought the RAV4 hybrid last year. 2020 Drive car of the year. Good choice Mr Physiotherapist
It's interesting that in the U.S, Ryobi use the peak voltage in their battery marketing. E.g that same 36V battery is labelled "40V". (40V being the voltage when fully charged). I like the Aussie labelling better - i.e - the average voltage during a full discharge.
@@gregsullivan7408 Referring to full discharge, as you mentioned. I have a 10s4p pack of Samsung 30q cells. I don’t discharge it that much but each cell can be discharged to 2.5V safely. So 25v for a 10s pack.
@@shane0yourgod sure, and it depends on the BMS as well - i.e - how far the BMS allows the cells to be discharged. The exact cutoff voltage doesn't make much difference to the amount of energy extracted, and John's calculation of the watt-hours is accurate.
We bought a 2017 Toyota Rav 4 Hybrid in early 2018. We have 40,000km+ on it now, which is not overmuch for the average Canadian driver. Why did we buy it in the first place? Dependability and cost savings in city driving. I was sold when I spoke to several taxi drivers including one in Edmonton, Alberta who had 400,000km on a Toyota hybrid and ran the car in teams 24 hours a day. In Edmonton. If you know where Edmonton is you can well imagine what winters are like there and what stresses have been put on the vehicle. So the robustness of the system is beyond question. My wife drives mostly in urban stop-and-go. Do we save money on fuel? Yes, at least marginally. There are little to no savings on highway driving, but in the city there are definite advantages. Is that going to be enough to cover both the increased up-front cost and the eventual replacement of the battery? No, definitely not. However, the SUV itself does not disappoint in other areas: It drives now as if it is new off the lot. I'm always amazed how smooth it is on ECO setting. SPORT setting makes quite a bit of difference and while I'm not talking about a Jekyll/Hyde transformation, it is way beyond my experience with other cars. I call it "Beast Mode" and it does turn my pedestrian soccer-mom (football-mom for you Shitsvillians) Rav4 into a sporty, accelerator-loving mini-monster in search of a highway with fresh asphalt and tight bends in it. Do I regret my purchase? Nope, not for a minute.
Well said John. I am very much a car nut but also somewhat of a greenie too and proudly work in an area which advocates for sustainability. I'm an advocate for renewables, improving air quality and general environmental protection. Unfortunately I find that so many people are greenwashed and I get so many people comment on the fact that I don't drive a vehicle which they perceive as 'green' and I try to explain why what I drive isn't in all that bad in reality. Your comments about the manufacturing processes and waste are rarely considered and I think people are unwilling to consider the problem any more than superficially. I wish I could articulate this as well as you with your fine use of words. Whilst I enjoy driving (including some limited racing) I would sooner drive less kilometres and opt for cycling, walking or public transport rather than purchasing an expensive hybrid vehicle with little to no benefit to me. And yes, I have driven a few hybrid vehicles and they're pretty good but I cannot justify the purchase of one over and internal combustion vehicle at this stage. I would consider an EV but at the moment I cannot afford the outlay.
Correct me if I'm wrong but a Toyota hybrid, as sold here in Australia, stores energy that would otherwise be wasted and then uses that energy to power the vehicle. A PHEV stores and uses energy from the power grid that, here in Australia, is powered mostly by burning coal? I not sure i see the environmental benefits of PHEV's here in Australia currently.
Ok.. so I just totally listened to the David attenbro of cars..... I love a good doco 😂❤ thanks bro... subbed so I can catch the next doco.... and yes very helpful.... lucky my algorithms picked up on what I've been looking into for days now.... very truthful and knowledgeable you are... cheers Yoda 😂😂
"The solution to to all problems gets better in proportion to how well you manage to define them" - love that John - great approach on so many levels and relevant not just to cars. Is that your own saying or did you borrow it from elsewhere?
I'm green. I put a 5 speed (overdrive) manual transmission in my '73 Camaro that has a cammed up .100" over bore 454, stuffed under the hood (bonnet). The overdrive lowers the cruising RPM of the engine on the highway.
I doesn't take much for you to feel green! A friend of mine put a Nova 4 cylinder with overdrive & 4.80 differential in his Corvette. Better cornering due to less weight in front. His Vette club pals hated it but they had to stop for gas at least once a day.
Fuel consumption figures are only true for the hybrid, but for the normal Rav4, the average for such a heavy car would be around 9 - 10 L/100k for mixed driving. No way you'd get the claimed 6.5 litres, unless you're travelling on the highway. So the actual saving on fuel would be around at least 40%. Now if you're comparing the Toyota with Mitsubishi, the Toyota has more power and I'd say better quality. Mitsubishi feels more like Kmart compared to Toyota!
I got the new Camry SX Hybrid and have had it since December last year and already on my first tank I started to save money on fuel. I get now about 850 - 900 kms f r a 50l tanks.5.2l p/100, that alone compared to my previous shchit box ford territory on diesel I was getting 600-700 kms per tanks. I do 300km per week going work and home. It's definitely worth it.
Right on. Couple of years ago I test drove the then new RAV4 Hybrid amongst a raft of vehicles I was evaluating. Performance was, well, completely underwhelming. I was surprised at how crap it was. Then it dawned on me. My inflated expectations were set by the motoring media who kept telling me in reviews the extra oomf from the RAV4 Hybrid's electric drivetrain was terrific. What a con. As to doing something much more useful for environment - absolutely home/office solar PV systems for the win (or improving the thermal performance of your home). Unfortunately home battery storage is not particularly green, especially in the eastern states of QLD/NSW/VIC (and it sucks financially). That's because all you are doing is time shifting solar PV energy from the day to the night, and both day and night grids still have a high proportion of coal power in the mix, all while losing energy in round trip efficiency losses which would otherwise have been available to offset daytime coal power. And killing daytime coal power demand will shut down coal plants faster than lowering nighttime demand. In grids where daytime renewables dominate but nighttime power is largely fossil, e.g. South Australia, then home batteries are an environmental positive. That said, just like you point out with hybrid cars, the published data on the embedded carbon cost isn't exactly readily available. There are studies but are generic in nature. It's not like you can look it up for your Tesla Powerwall or LG or Sonnen battery etc. End of life recovery or disposal costs are not considered. It's just assumed they will have value and that's not really been established yet. There are nascent EV battery recyclers in Australia, so at least we'll get some indication of the commercial viability of that processing path.
As a PHEV owner for the past half decade allow me to say that you may be underselling PHEV's a little bit. My PHEV can do highway speeds (120km/hr) for 50km in EV mode without the gas engine ever coming on. Fully 2/3 of all our driving in the vehicle has been in electric-only mode. We save on average about $2,000 (CAD) per year in fuel compared to our old TDI wagon.
We are on the same page regarding the RAV4 environmental credentials and “savings”. I was however, considering the Accord hybrid rather than the conventional turbo. The hybrid is only $1200 US more and gets a real world 47 miles per gallon vs 31 mpg in the 1.5 turbo. That’s a 50 percent improvement in fuel economy in a slightly faster car. Does that change your equation enough to tempt you? Of course the battery environmental issues are still there but not to the Extent of an all EV with It’s much larger battery pak. In a way, the hybrid, has less of a pollution impact in the mining and making and recycling of those rare and toxic materials. Does the fifty percent greater fuel economy make it worth it?
Yep been there done that hybrid stuff It was great but didn’t cover the type of Typograph I travel. Iv gone back to a 4x4 diesel UTE (cannon) I feel safe in this vehicle.
Hi John, heard it from someone who in turn also heard it from someone else, Scobie Liberaceson has jumped the shark and bought one of these.first tick on the option's list is total Scotchgard, second is the exclusive self inflating Pedo Mutton Scarecrow.
I took apart a 52v ebike battery to harvest some cells recently( Samsung 35E) was all going fine till a strip of them peeled off at once. As i was using a little too much force on one end of the connecting welded joining strips it folded right over to the cell on the other end, BOOM. We all know how much fun a Lithium ion battery fire can be, after the explosion first. I kicked them out of the garage into the open driveway, a mini 4th July. Pics to prove it if you like.
I am probably going to be criticised, but I bought an MG HS Phev earlier this year for "she who likes to be obeyed". There was no desire to be particularly green. I like technology and this car is full of it. I also bought it because one of the criticisms by the vast majority of motoring journalists out there said the ride wasn't very sporty. As we live on a wonderfully appalling country road on the outskirts of Sydney, sport ride is the last thing we want. So far our experience with this PHEV is excellent. It genuinely does 61kms on pure battery cruising at 80 to 90kph for our local country needs. Performance on pure eclectic is surprisingly good. However, acceleration performance on the combined petrol and electric is outstanding. My local roads are barely wide enough for 2 cars to pass, so overtaking performance is important to us and this car has it in spades. Our regular commutes into Sydney are around 60 to 80kms with hilly country and heavy traffic with petrol consumption around 5.5litres/100kms which none of my previous cars have got near in our area. I agree that PHEVs are not sensible in pure dollar terms, but that is not the only reason we buy cars. It turns out I like driving this MG PHEV as much as my diesel V8 rocket ship. Also there is no range anxiety as it has reasonable regenerative braking (could be stronger in my opinion) and the petrol motor puts power back into the 16.6kwh battery surprisingly effectively. Charging off a normal 10amp power point takes around 6 hours which we do about once a week. So, at this stage, this type of Plug In Hybrid for people like us is a totally effective choice. I am not disappointed and my wife absolutely loves it. Her previous car was a 2014 Honda Civic Sport which she thought she loved until she tried the MG. If you lived in a city suburban location with a daily commute less than 60kms, this car would be fine and you can still go away for weekend trips to Melbourne etc without range anxiety. JC, Love the work you do for us mere mortals. Thank you.
A guy I know from Melb had a Phev, his complaint was that it forced him to use the petrol quite often to avoid the fuel going stale. Did you run into that ??
@@kerrynball2734 Not as yet. Mainly because our trips are either 16kms each way locally which is mainly on electric or around 70km into Sydney Suburbs there and 70kms back. So the 36 litres of fuel seem to last at least 2 or 3 weeks which I don't think is to bad for fuel. Also I use 95 plus as recommended by MG and also my personal preference right or wrong. I am first to admit the MG PHEV could do with a software update in the infotainment area to improve the boot up speed etc, but then I am retired, so what is the rush. It could probably use a better control shock absorber though definitely not a deal breaker. I will probably put better shocks on down the road. Because I live in hilly country, I would like to see a software update to increase the regenerative braking (which is currently not bad, but could be stronger) and allow more choice to the strength of the regen braking. I suspect that would actually increase the combined overall distance available. So as one of the Ads on TV say..."Still loven it"
Thanks John. Coherent points that resonate with my internal dilemmas. 15 year old Italian car has just took a final breath. Sad, but probably 10 years later than expected! The 25 yr old Camry V6 wagon is still purring along. My current thought is we buy a small petrol car for the family to use for short commutes and wait for improvements in the tech before we take an electric plunge. I'm still hoping that the hydrogen tech is sorted out even though the energy conversion losses seen huge. The benefit of being able to 'fill-up' in minutes send powerful in Aus, but they'll still need much of that virgin rare-earth material that you highlight. For now, I'll keep peddling my pushy to work, as much as my aging body will let me and listen to the birds as long as I can. Let's hope for governments who actually do something about the big issues rather than making us feel guilty about doing the essentials.
Putting aside that clean energy bandwagon, is it (hybrid) really a practical alternative to a standard petrol or diesel powered cars ? For a comparison, between a petrol powered vs hybrid RAV 4. Cost difference between the two is ~6,000 AUD. Say an average consumption between them is 3.5 li/km (just an estimate), average petrol price = 1.75/li. And assuming you drive 15,000km/yr then the total savings per year will be close to 920AUD. Breakeven between car price difference vs yearly savings will be 8 years. By that time the maximum battery efficiency will be 80% (estimated lost of non polymer type lithium ion is 2.3% every 15,000 km distance assuming weight of the car = 2.2tons and annual average temperature ~ 25 Celcius). Hence you will have to replace the battery for around 8,000 AUD (including service). So in total you will lose 2000 AUD 8 years in the process. The only sensible way to save some money is to sell the car in 3-4 years where the resale value is at its peak.
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"deciding on wife number 3,trust me I'm an expert" quickly followed by " could be cheaper to rent" . . . 'Class' John, pure class !
Feel you there.
Hello kitty.
Funny to a 14 year old boy in 1980 (which is probably an insult to 14 year old boys in 1980). In 2021 it's pathetic and a little creepy. Or to put it motoring terms refered to in another AE review, it's like a CD player in the latest land cruiser. Still, the technical content is compelling and otherwise amusing.
It alludes me who coined the phrase if it flies, floats or F@##S...... Rent it 🙈
class my ass. thats leftist logic
Thanks
Let’s not forget about the reduced maintenance and less components to break on a Toyota hybrid such as, no serpentine belt to replace, no starter motor, no alternator and brake pads last in excess of 250,000 klms as they hardly get used unless you are ridiculously heavy on the brake pedal.
I let your video play while I was doing some work. I know you don't agree with hybrids, but I still love them. To each his own.
Love your stuff John. Knowing some well heeled cab drivers, the Toyota hybrid has been the go to for near on 20 years now. Getting on the plus side of 500,000kms before needing to spend a few grand. All cars have their issues. But that is a pretty big endorsement. The reliability and resale (imagined or factual) of the Toyota across all current models is higher, which is also something worth factoring in.
The Beetrooter's God has a few things to say about adultery as well . Maybe those bits were optional ?
Barnaby 'Family Values' Joyce was away from Sunday School that day ...
No Anthony, all have sinned. Barnarby, you and me will all give an account for the lives we live. Accept God's free gift of salvation in Christ Jesus and you will no longer stand in condemnation.
All of the holy book is optional. It was fantasy, and tools created by religious leaders to control the population.
@@johnrb9397 me thinks you've been drinking way too much sacrificial wine.
@@wilson2455 I think he's been drinking battery acid. Didn't read the warning label - Religiots aren't big on reading.
I love hybrids, because they trigger battery EV zealots and anti-EV nutbags in equal measure.
Nothing like having everyone hate you. (Not that I would understand that...)
Yep good reason to own one....shits and giggles are highly underrated
Gets my upvote; a hybrid system can make sense in a lot of situations (i.e. places with suboptimal charging networks) whilst still being able to recover and reuse kinetic energy.
Extra ten grand for a 2 Ltr over 100 Klms is a fantastic gain. I’m glad it’s you 👍
Not anti EV - gran'ma duck had one. They have a place. Set some early land speed records. But why would you choose to drive around sitting on top of 400, 500, 600 kg of flammable explosive intractable toxic waste?
I rented a hybrid Corolla at Brissy airport. Drove to Noosa, spent three days driving gently around Noosaville and the beach, then drove back to the airport. Didn’t use the odometer, but when I filled up, I put in 11 litres!!! Couldn’t believe it. 👍
I own a a 2020 Corolla hybrid i love it I do alot of city driving and I get about 900klms to a tank
After driving an SUV in which I was putting 500 dollars of fuel in a month, I was looking for something cheaper to operate. I did quite a bit of research between Hybirds, PHEV, and pure electric. I came to a lot of the same conclusions you did regarding "Self Charging" Hybrids. When it came to pure electric, I wasn't comfortable with the charging infrastructure and didn't want to be one of those poor suckers waiting 8 house to even use a charger on busy travel weekends. I ended up landing on the the Sorento PHEV. for my use case, I'm saving between 350 and 400 in fuel each month. Over a 7-8 year ownership, I should see significant realized savings even after a potential battery replacement. Also, my kids where quite happy because they're starting to think more and more about the environment. I didn't tell them that there is potential that the battery production is potentially carbon positive. ha
PHEVs are perfect for Australia until EV charging station rollout is improved.
@@yggdrasil9039 I’m in Canada, and it wasn’t until I started looking for chargers did I realize how far the infrastructure needs to come. But even charging at home the PHEV is perfect for my family. So far I’ve averaged 2.1L / 100 KM in the city.
John most cabs in AU are hybrid Prius. The milage is pretty huge on them but drivers I speak to love the reliability. Yes complexity will lead to unreliability. I just don't see this is cabs that owners have done nearly 1 million km's
Just to shorten my previous post
Give up being bias against Toyota
I know taxi drivers who get 650,000km life cycles from the battery in Toyota hybrids
Try doing that in a Tesla or Hyundai
You are spot on with the 'list your reasons for wanting' process. I went through my reasons for wanting a hybrid suv before I bought my lexus rx450h and they were as follows: No turbo, no dpf or egr issues (specifically diesel related), good mpg, lower nox (yes I know co2 is higher with petrol engines but at least nox is lower), space, a high vehicle mass (for better towing vehicle to trailor weight ratio), decent power (300+ bhp), and reliability (lexus). I also hate German cars (irrational reason but relevant in decision making process). I also wanted a smooth running, quiet vehicle which doesn't have any badge snobbery. Lastly, I've had japanese vehicles for 40 years and they've never let me down. I made a list before I bought and I'm happy with the purchase, so great advice John 👍
Great comment. So right, especially regarding the unbearable German brands.
The hybrid AWD RAV4 has the highest power and torque outputs in the entire RAV4 range. The small extra cost is similar to other car brands offering the option to upgrade to a turbo diesel or higher performance engine for an added cost. If potential RAV4 buyers want the “premium” engine choice, they have to choose a hybrid. There are no turbo petrol or diesel engine choices in the RAV4 range.
I got a RAV4 Cruiser Hybrid AWD because I liked the design, size, features and value. I don’t pretend to be saving the planet or even saving money. To me, the fuel efficiency and lower emissions are just nice bonuses of this powertrain.
Watch the video. And if higher power/torque is what you are after, you are looking at the wrong car.
@@mohvanwah yeah watched the whole thing. Had to wait until 80% of the way through until John mentioned the performance side of things.
@@GuitarsRockForever I was shopping for a mid sized SUV (not a sports car or truck) and the RAV4 ticked the right boxes for me. Are you suggesting that choosing the better engine choice in the RAV4 range somehow indicates that I should’ve bought a different kind of car altogether?
I guess you’re the kind of person who only buys base model poverty spec cars, right? Go back to enjoying your plastic hub caps and free appliance white paint job.
AND Nobody is mentioning RAW4 Hybrid has about 9dB less noise in the cabin than my old 2010 Subaru Forester (and Forester is not noisy car).
@@lee8org hybrid is quiet when it’s running in EV mode, but when the engine kicks in, I find it to be just as noisy as a regular car.
Thanks!
Really enjoyed that perspective John, you say hybrids can be complex, ok sure but DPFs, direct injection systems and all the plumbing that has to support a petrol burner certainly is complex too. Can’t wait until we have more full EV options here like the rest of the world (eg Rivian)
We've been base model kluger owners now coming into our third generation, average 16,000km a year and the 2016 model we had averaged 16L/100km it's 5 year life with us. The hybrid version of the new Kluger costs only $2500 more than the V6, and you don't just get the hybrid system, you get a full climate control that the base model doesn't have. Fuel use wise we've averaged 7.1L/100km with the 2021 Kluger over the old one, that's an 8.9L saving, and quality fuel (we only use 98 ever) is over $2 a litre. That's a saving of $2,848 every year we own it, and assuming we replace at the 5 year mark that will be $11,740 saved over buying the V6, less fuel burned, and frankly I'd call this worthwhile. The Trade in will also be higher, as in 5 years it will still be in peak condition and hybrids will be more in demand, not everyone can afford a $60k car. We would have gone the Sorento PHEV but it's $24k more onroad, and I would not trust their first attempt at such a complex engine, lets face it KIA have come a very long way indeed but they're not as reliable I would say, yet. Maybe in BEV forms and that will be our next car... hybrid is a one car stepping stone from fat ICE, whilst the EV infrastructure is sorted out. Also the Sorento...still nowhere to be seen here in AUS, so even if the price weren't quite so hight it's stil impossible to buy one in October 21.
Do you have kluger awd or rear wheel drive in hybrid and also your previous petrol one?
How do you compare the drive between v6 and hybrid? I’m thinking if the hybrid is underpowered and as per John the battery will degrade and the power will reduce further!
But your 16L/100 km on v6 scares me!!
Surely some of these stats must be wrong. My 2014 3ltr Izusu Dmax towing a 2400kg caravan in Tassie averaged out at 16L/100km
@@mohsinaboobacker8804
Thanks John for the easiest to understand, dumbed down description of the difference between a Petrol Hybrid and a PHEV that I have found anywhere on RUclips. It just makes it so clear that Petrol Hybrids are essentially a very slightly more efficient ICE vehicle, whereas PHEVs are at least true EVs, just ones that don’t dare to get off their training wheels and instead lug around a big heavy range extender plus associated fuel to run it everywhere they go. And yes, there’s no point in dipping your toes with EVs. Best to stick with your old clunker for a few more years when the switch is well and truly underway and then get a much much better EV for much less money.
Hi John, another good one. As someone who drives about 45,000 k per year [many 'off road'] I never complain at the cost of fuel....It is still cheaper, per litre, than bottled water .. and it falls from the sky for free if you wish to catch it...
Since 2017, I watch your videos ( I was in New Zealand at that time). 2022, in Australia I still watch you videos and they make more sense after living here. You need an award John .
Are you an Indian who studied in NZ? Just curious.
amazing video, not so many rants and highly technical and to the point. Such an enjoyable watch, thanks John, love your work!
I would argue that Toyota "self-charging" (agree on the ridiculousness of this term) Hybrids are _mechanically_ less complex than their petrol-only brethren. The main reason to that is their lack of a traditional gearbox and clutch assembly. Instead they have a much more mechanically simple set of planetary gears, permanently coupled to all main drivetrain components. The _electronics_ bit is, however, fair bit more complex indeed. Another loss of complexity is the lack of turbo and all related bits, which many modern petrol-only variants carry.
For me the primary benefits of a hybrid (over petrol-only) is the noticeably faster throttle response and smoother acceleration curve.
Also, the "self-charging" hybrids are only 50-100 kg heavier than their petrol-only siblings of same configuration, which for a car reaching 2 tons kerb weight is but a drop in the ocean.
Exactly! It's a myth that hybrids are more complex than a pure petrol.
100/2000 = 1/20 = 5% ? Up to 5% extra? That’s no drop in the ocean. More mass = more energy required to move said mass
Before I even watch the video.
I will say my opinion.
I owned a Kia Sorento diesel, it's was a good car but I definitely prefer the hybrid.
It's much quieter, more comfy and more joy to drive than the noisy vibrating diesel.
I do 60k per year.
Driven a 2018 toyota camry hybrid and Rav4 hybrid.
They are both great cars for city, I got as low as 3 litres/100k.
It took me from Sydney to Melbourne on 40 litres, so even better than a diesel and even more comfortable.
It definitely produce a lot less Carbon emissions than a dirty diesel.
It's the most sensible choice as the fuel prices are on the rise.
It also does up to 1 million kilometres, thanks to the help of the electric engine.
I don't think any other car other than a Toyota hybrid is capable of that.
It holds its value extremely well, better than any other car.
Regarding the hybrid battery, you have plenty of choices, from the new company recycling them in Melbourne to Alibaba where you can get one for 3000 dollars!
It's usually replaced after 230k!
The cheapest to service ever, it usually costs me 100 to 200 dollars to service including oil and filter and other consumables like brakes, brake pads, air filter, etc.
It requires minimum amount of maintenance, maybe the extra thing is to clean the battery cooling fan and air intake manifold which only costs a 100 bucks every couple of years.
From my experience and honest opinion, you can't beat a hybrid car.
One of the economies of an EV or even a standard type hybrid is the lack of wear on the brakes. Using the electric motor as a generator to charge the battery means not using the brakes to slow down so you save twice - once on fuel and again on brake maintenance.
@@rais1953 very true, his comparison between fuel consumption figures is not accurate.
Fuel consumption figures are only true for the hybrid, but for the normal Rav4, the average for such a heavy car would be around 9 L/100k for mixed driving.
No way you'd get the claimed 6.5 litres, unless you're travelling on the highway.
So the actual saving on fuel would be around at least 40%
Haitham 100% correct my hybrid averages 6 normal 2.5 engine would be 9 or even 10 there a reason all the taxi go them yes they do heaps more ks but also save big on brakes and they will do about a million ks if you want to keep it forever
100% agree. Hybrids are a much calmer driving experience as well.
@@yggdrasil9039 I wanted a plug in hybrid but, as we heard in the video, the savings on running costs would have to cover the much higher purchase price. I couldn't make that work for me within a few years so I shopped for a small hatchback.
I really love my top of the line Hybrid Camry but I agree with everything you said John. But I didn't buy it to save money, I liked the car and it does save on some emissions hopefully. My other car is a diesel D-max and though that is not 'green' I plan on keeping it for quite a long time as it is also the environmentally responsible thing to do if you buy good quality then keep it and maintain it for as long as practical or feasible rather than just upgrading every 2 or 3 years.
Covered in point 8. :)
The maths of buying a $26000 cheap new car that only does 9 ltr/100 klm is far more economical than buying a $40000 car that does 7 ltr/100klm. The extra cost in fuel is only about $150 /year. If you own it 10 years you've saved yourself $10000 + or -
Why did my comment to another video turn up in this video? WTF RUclips! I have noticed a lot of strange behaviour with YT replies to comments. Above comment has absolutely nothing to do with this video.
If you need a small car sure.
Depends how much you drive. If you are driving 50,000km a year, hybrid is the way to go. You will recoup the extra few thousand in under a year. The drive experience is far more pleasant with the engine off half the time when coasting to a stop, driving slowly in traffic, or going downhill as well.
@@yggdrasil9039 this... I considered doing hybrid but the cost doesn't justify it since I have a short commute. Sure I'll save gas but I pay more into fees and insurance. I drive 16km a day, 6 days a week.
@@meh4062 OK, fair enough, though a PHEV would mean you'd never have to pay for petrol if your commute is that short. Another thing I'll say in hybrid's favour though (at least the Toyota system afaik) is that it's a simpler design and far less wear and tear on the engine. The idea that the hybrid engine is more complex because you've got two drivetrains is a myth. The whole system is completely redesigned. Someone on YT did a breakdown of a Toyota Prius and took the engine out to inspect and after 300,000km said the engine, piston rings etc etc still looked brand new. Very little stress on the engine and rarely goes above 4000rpm.
I did many of these sums when deciding what was best to do for my personal CO2 emissions. As I only drive 10,000kms a year, I kept my old car and used the money I saved by not replacing it and replaced my gas boiler with a heat pump. That saved 4,000kg of CO2 in the first year alone. (We need heating here in the UK).
Thank you for doing the math!!!
"Thank you for sticking with me this long" - I understand Tiffany probably has a pretty short attention span, but I'm sure even she can hold on for 2 minutes
The only future problem with a plug-in hybrid is that like it's full EV brother/sister they will eventually have to pay RUC while the normal ICE and standard hybrid never will, here in NZ RUC is currently $76 per 1000km, however currently exempt on EV
The petrol ice and petrol hybrid vehicle owners in NZ are paying a fair amount of 'petrol tax' to the Government. In Auckland there is an extra petrol/ fuel tax too. NZ sits about mid-table when international petrol prices plus fuel taxes are compared. NZ gov could in the future very likely raise the petrol/ diesel tax higher to make the operating fossil fuel vehicles more and more expensive to push people to plug in battery or hydrogen vehicles (and into hydrogen/ electric buses, trains and onto bicycles and e-motorcycles and horses etc if they cannot afford their own electric vehicles) Lithium batteries will be recycled if economic or rules are enforced to do so, Mitsubishi NZ was sending batteries to Belgium to be recycled, other NZ used lithium batteries/ components go to South Korea for reprocessing.
If NZ raises fuel tax on fossil fuels so people buy hybrids then its a tax on lower income families there or is NZ governments going to subsidise hybrid cars for low income families!
Not bloody likely
@@scoundragon Well we currently do have a subsidy on EV of $8600 which is not much help when the average EV costs $60-$70k! And a lesser amount of $5750 on plug-in hybrids which is still not much help as again as again they cost $50k plus. I guess the best deal is for Japanese second hand imports that can cost as little as $9k for an older Nissan Leaf are able to get a $3450 rebate.
RUC should be applicable to all vehicles based on weight not fuel type, since weight is by far the most significant deriorating factor for road wear.
Don't forget to factor in the savings on Brake replacements. 300k km's in a hybrid Camry and my Brakes are still 80%. Maybe over the 80k km's that may be 2 sets of front and a set of rears. I'm guessing at the cost, brakes and rotors, maybe $1500 to $2000 for that. So the $2500 saving in fuel over 80k km's could be $4000 up. So there's that
Not to mention how nasty those bit's of dust from the pads and disks are to human health. Saw a RUclips video of some environmentalist, so numbers could be completely off, stating that 60% of the asthma causing particles are from brakes and tyres. Maybe regen braking can making a difference with these levels?
Pads and rotors on a camry, front and rear, $600 fitted.
@@Low760 DBA front rotors $200 pair
Bendix front pads $70
DBA rear rotors $216
Bendix Rear pads $70
Labour $300
Total $856
Using discounted online quality parts, supplying parts yourself.
At least $1000 supply and fit from a workshop, probably $1500 genuine from Toyota.
$600 would be cheap Chinese rubbish using backyard Freddy the taxi repair man.
How much is a hybrid battery replacement? I’m sure that it’s a lot more than a brake job. FJB 🖕🖕🇨🇳🇨🇳
@@barackblows1942 $3000, hasn't needed to be done yet, 320k km's battery still charges fully. And to reduction in fuel economy since new.
Well explained John , I put 5 kw of panels on the roof and got a Kia Seltos GT Line. Yessssssssss 👍🚗
Roof covered here too: 38 kWh harvested today! :) Shame not to have an EV to put the excess into though, but I'm not buying one as long as we have EV exclusive km taxes and no carbon taxes - as well as no incentives for long range EVs in Victoria.
A few thoughts from myself, the owner of a 10 year old secondhand toyota hybrid. I fully agree that they don't make sense financially to buy new unless you drive a huge number of kms. However, secondhand they are a great deal as they cost no more than a regular petrol version. Also don't forget to factor in the lower maintenance cost of hybrids.
For example the brakes in hybrids last many times longer than on other cars as the regen does most of the work. Also the engine spends less time running so can be serviced less frequently. There is also no belts, pulleys, alternator or starter and the tiny 12v battery lasts longer than in other cars as it's not having to start an engine.
Also on battery costs,
Fortunately mine is still going strong after 10 years and averages 4.8l per 100km fuel economy and typically they last around 15 years. However you do not have to spend the full price to buy a new battery as there are secondhand and rebuilt options available as well as replacing individual cells. A rebuilt battery for example costs about as much as a full brake job on a regular car.
Hybrids make a lot of sense for those who do a lot of driving and are buying secondhand which is what I do. The thing that will kill a hybrid battery is having the car sitting around unused. So if you only drive short distance or infrequently a hybrid may not be a good choice.
Yes , you can’t buy a new replacement battery for Toyota HEV in “Shitsville” the only option is a rebuilt battery , which Toyota will pay half …..according to the salesman at Charlestown Toyota last Sunday .
i am considering a second hand hybrid myself - my old concern is the replacement cost of a the inverter and battery - though i should probable get a quote on replacement costs before completely riding them off as a option
@@abogoni Inverter problems are very rare but not unheard of. Keep your inverter coolant maintained and you should be safe. Before I bought mine I checked the cost of batteries in my area and realised the cost was no worse than many repairs on normal cars and was something I can live with.
Heat will kill a hybrid battery as well.
@@Whisperhollow That's why the hybrid battery is cooled by air coming from inside the car an why the A/C turn on automatically when the battery get hot.
brilliant in every sense, thanks.
Thank you, John, for providing insightful info on hybrid cars vs economy and environmental benefits.
Australia getting stiffed on proper hybrid models? I'm _shocked_ ... Great video!
Totally accurate comment about getting the smallest vehicle possible. I recently did a fuel economy test on my 2 cars which is on my channel. One is a 2.0T 2.5L 2006 subaru forester (125hp) and my 1.5T 3.0L 94' modified Toyota Supra (415hp). Normal driving gives me much better fuel economy with the Supra purely because of power to weight.
So with that in mind for ultimate fuel savings you want a car that is as light as possible so it doesn't have to work as hard to get you up to speed. Because a hybrid has so much extra weight it almost cancelles out any benefits.
As always John, you bring up some great points to help make a informed decision! Thank as always!
Just as Covid19 struck, Scomo said re EV's (paraphasing here) > "That's the end of the Aussie weekend." The COAL ITION happily goes along with these skyjerks
Hi John. Being something of a physics nut, I always enjoy your detailed explanations of so many things. Before I bought my 2019 Subaru Forester, I did look closely at Hybrid and Plugin Hybrids. My usual long trips are Carnarvon-Perth and back, which is around 950km on mostly very flat and straight roads, with not many hills or stops in the whole trip to assist with regenerative braking. Usually I stop overnight half way, but not always.
I decided to stick with ICE rather than go hybrid, as on a long trip (450km+), the hybrid types seemed to me to be a lot dead weight to drag around without adding any benefit at all. I have often thought it strange that this lack of benefit on long trips is not more clearly considered by commentators. However, my wife often tells me I am wrong!
My local driving is only a few kilometres around town per week, where I do agree that both hybrid types would be beneficial.
I do have one small query about your report on the Toyota Rav 4 hybrid. I am fairly sure you said that a hybrid's battery is ONLY charged by regenerative braking and the like. However, It is my understanding that hybrids also recharge via the ICE engine itself. That is what Toyota says on their website, for example. Was this a slip of the clutch on your part? 😁
For your long trips driving Subaru Forester is probably better choice. My 2010 Subaru Forester has still great economy on open roads or freeway (as low as 5.3l/100km depends how heavy is your foot and quality of fuel). But in the city it jumps to 13l/100km, combine average around 9l/100km. New 2021 RAW4 Hybrid Cruiser combine average 5.6l/100km. I haven't done any long trips so cant comment on that. I have to mention RAW4 Hybrid has about 9dB less noise in the cabin than 2010 Subaru Forester. They both very good cars!
HYBRID CARS ARE THE BEST!
LOVE MY TOYOTA HYBRID IT STILL WORKS PERFECT AFTER 10 YEARS BATTERY STILL WORKS PERFECT AND IT STILL CAN DRIVE AROUND ON EV ONLY MODE AND THE ELECTRIC MOTORS WORK AT ALL SPEED EVEN LIKE 120KPH
As always, very entertaining and highly informative. Really impressed by the way you put it into a global context, the more effective ways to reduce our carbon footprint and just how difficult it is to calculate the upstream energy inputs.
Meh, I'm picking my Rav4 hybrid cruiser AWD at the end of the month. To each their own I guess.
I love the hybrid because I’ve already paid for the kinetic energy I’ve just built up and I want it back
Great video again! Note however that HEV or PHEV drive much better in town than a conventional internal combustion engine with stop&start technology or even a mild-hybrid. It gives you a relaxing feeling when driving in traffic jams that's simply priceless (essentially because there are no vibrations at low speeds when in electric). Inching forward with the electric motor is also natural and safe. I replaced my bmw series 2 diesel (DCT transmission) by the same model but the PHEV version with the torque converter transmission. Reduced consumption from 4.6L/100km to 2.4L/100km adopting the same driving style. 50km in pure electric is the key. So, if you do a lot of city driving, then you definitely want a hybrid. BUT!!! please check if the transmission is a dual clutch (DCT). If it is, just run away. DCTs are fast and super fun but not if you drive a lot in town. Inching forward with this transmission will destroy it without you knowing (prepare for spending some money...), and the fuel consumption reduction is simply not significant. Hybrids are great, PHEVs are better BUT with a torque converter transmission or a e-CVT (for Toyotas, Hondas...). Otherwise, and if you do only a few miles a day, pick instead a cheap (very much) used 100% EV (a Zoe or a Leaf with something like >70% of battery health) and after a few years of usage throw it directly to the recycle bin as it will worth nothing by then!
Just reviewed your video for the second time. Such fun. Love the tech talk and reality there in. Keep up the good work.
Have been driving Toyota hybrids for almost 4 years now. And I tell you what I will never go back to a normal car or even electric car for that matter. As long as these hybrids are available.
Toyota's hybrid system doesn't only charge using regenerative braking - the combustion engine is also used for charging. I agree though - "self charging" isn't the right term to use.
Charging via the ICE is expediency. As energy management goes, it's insane.
I have always had a problem with the term "self charging" much as I have with the idiotic "renewable energy" terminology.
@@AutoExpertJC I'm not sure it's "insane" - if it didn't save fuel, Toyota wouldn't have implemented it - there's no need to keep the battery charged in their system, so the ONLY reason for allowing the ICE to charge the battery would be for efficiency.
@@gregsullivan7408 What John means by "insanity" is burning fuel to charge a battery, to then use that energy later to move the vehicle is insanity because you waste energy by doing that process (2nd Law). It's better to just not have the heavy battery and use that same fuel to turn the wheels.
@@ScottMurrayBestFamilyCars So are you saying Toyota's hybrid system doesn't make any sense? I hope not, because it does make sense - as John says, it's about 28% more efficient. It has been highly successful.
This was such a brilliant analysis with strong and rational arguments. And funny, as usual.
Absolutely brilliant on so many levels… Well done again John.
Agreed, except his ignorance on the exisitance of God.
There are penalties associated with owning a small car regarding safety. I frequently see the aftermath of accidents involving small cars, even the small cars with 5 stars.
I enjoyed this video. It was informative and entertaining, a combination that's truly rare these days. We are looking at a RAV-4 hybrid and the missus is gonna be disappointed when I force her to sit through this video.
I agree. Hybrids a great if one really does over 25000km per year (around 500km per week). Also saving an upfront cost of 25% compared to an SUV with a smaller car is very clear. However the real life savings of the equivalent Hybrid RAV 4 compared to the petrol only are greater than on paper from what I have observed.
Thanks John, this has really helped me make a better decision (i.e. not getting a hybrid). Will you be putting out any similar videos comparing EVs with petrol/diesel cars?
He did one in the past that basically said "If Australia keeps burning coal"
1) Coal to EV works out about the same CO2 as ICE
2) Abandon all hope of a livable planet if we are counting on the politicians getting it right.
I wonder if that higher authority in the sky averted his eyes while the Beetrooter was committing adultery lol
No and it does not excuse what he did to his wife and children.
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Well, just check the record: churches have been abusing children for very long time, the "higher authority in the sky" has no problem with it what so ever.
@@GuitarsRockForever I have always wondered how the " Holier than Thou"
set reconsile themselves with that one, they always seem to have reasons
to cover the peculiarities of their beliefs.
I have a 2019 Prius PHEV. Last fill saw me travel 1,466kms for 12.9l of ULP and $22. 0.88l/100kms. The remaining power/"fuel" came from our solar panels and batteries. The car also has a solar panel roof that has so far generated 241kW. You won't believe I'm a petrolhead But, I hate paying for fuel and seeing those A$s go to the Arabs etc. WRT the RAV4 Physio video, I'd recommend a Prius to him, you'd be amazed how much you can get in one. I've had 9 green treated pine sleepers in the back of mine with the rear door closed to go home. You should've seen the look on the Hardware Store staff faces as I drove off! And yes JC the "Risk Factor" was High! Love your work JC.
I've just bought a new hybrid (Honda Jazz and, in the UK now only available as a hybrid) and it is much better to drive than its predecessor but you are right it would have been greener to keep my old Honda Jazz!
I have driven the Honda Jazz eHev and was really disappointed with the high fuel consumption at 5.1L/100kms when on motorways with steep climbs and downhill. The regen charged the tiny battery real fast but the battery was also discharge really fast! The only benefit it seems was at traffic lights and for a short distance at low speed. This sounds crazy but sadly it’s true! There goes the hybrids for me. Don’t get me wrong, the eHev is a great little car to drive! Not sure what I was saving tbh, if any.
Great video, John
In summary: Appearances count
We want to look like we are helping
Even while simply standing around and possibly getting in the way
A very logical look at the Hybrid case. Thanks for expelling those words to the public. I'm sure those conventional print/online automotive clowns wouldn't dare to upset their advertiser's. Always a good laugh as well John, just wanted to thank you for your videos especially during covid lockdowns we've had in Melbourne, it's always a pleasure to watch your videos and take my mind off everything else. Cheers 🍻
Absolutely
As always you present an informative and entertaining video John. Best wishes from London
Thank you very much, Colin.
remember when ScoMo gave Barnaby the arse for getting his press secretary 'up the duff'. Now they are BFF's. Politicians are truly class acts..
mate this comparison between your Ryobi battery and each different battery vehicle was genius! I actually feel like I finally really understand the difference. You’ve provided much needed perspective for me as I consider which vehicle to buy.
Only problem is comparing a Ryobi Appliance battery to and oversized HE, HP EV battery is idiotic at best. The chemical composition and physical properties couldn’t be more different. It’s like comparing Apples M2 chip to 9 pocket calculators. You think I’m wrong? By all means strap 9 Ryobi specials together and stick them in a RAV4. See what happens.
awesome video - im currently looking at buying a used tarago estima hybrid to save on fuel - thanks for helping people like myself see the bigger picture
if im driving say 15K a year and the hybrid has a fuel consumption of about 5.5L/100 compared to a standard tarago which gets about 8.5L/100 thats 3L/100 of savings - which over 15K is 765 a year - which seems okay at first glace until you take into account other factors like the total cost of the car - long term reliability - and other factors like do i really need a big car - do i buy 1500 of coffee a year - do i buy 3000 of lunch a year - am i paying 1000 a year in interest on a car loan - is my car depreciating 2000 a year
now the 750 saving in fuel looks less attractive
Helped more than you think. I couldn't give a stuff about the planet. I was looking at saving money, looks like I'll stick with the Forester and STOP buying coffee. Thanks for all the effort you put into your great videos.
The Rav4 hybrid will save the owner petrol money over the lifetime of the car and has a better torque band. For a CVT, that second point is very important. If somebody's heart is set on a Rav4, choosing the hybrid over the petrol is a no-brainer, especially if you plan on holding onto your vehicle.
Video would be a bit better if you mentioned the fact that the resale value of Toyota hybrids offsets the initial 2.5k mark-up.
I'm reality if you are an average car buyer who gets a new car every 6-7 years (correct me if that if wrong, just recalling from memory). You won't have to worry about the battery failing as it will be under warranty, your resale value will be 2-3k higher than an ice only and in the meanwhile you will have the benefit of fuel savings, while driving the car you enjoy. Which if you drive more than the average Australian it will be to a considerable amount over the lifetime of the vehicle. With in most cases almost no additional cost due to the resale value offset.
With ever increasing inflation and fuel prices, currently $2/l every second week it's a no brainer. Yes if it's for virtuous and planet saving reasons, no it's not a valid reason to buy one. But if you like a specific Toyota vehicle and you are dead set on buying that specific model (Ie Camry, rav4, ect), just buy the hybrid variant of it. In fact if you want any Camry aside from the base model it will be a hybrid by default, 70% of Camrys sold in Aus in 2020 were hybrids..
Yeah resale always needs to be factored in.
Also there’s a rebate in NSW
Bingo. Other than savings in fuel, resale was a factor in me in choosing a hybrid. Having the electric torque down low is great for about-town drivability and smoothness as well.
Toyota's Hybrid Synergy drive is not just a means for recapturing wasted braking energy to improve overall efficiency. The Synergy drive transmission is surprisingly simple and far more reliable/durable than the typical modern transmission in competing vehicles. I advocate for Toyota's Hybrid vehicles mainly for their superior durability and reliability. They are extremely popular in some of the most abusive and demanding markets - such as with taxicabs and Ubers in New York City. The concept of two electric motor/generators separated by a simple heavy duty planetary power splitter is a stroke of genius that coupled with Toyota's reliable electronic controls has transformed the industry for the better.
How does the Beet Rooter explain how the fellow in the sky dodges all
the lightning bolts when the thousands of Ryobi 36V bricks up there started
randomly discharging during some of our recent violent storms?
Must as "agile" as a polly at question time.
would you not save on brakes and any other components?
would the electric engine save stress of the ICE engine, prolonging the life of the more complex ICE engine?
im in melbourne, the urban fuel difference on the corollas is 2.5L per 100km.
but having the engine idle while stuck in traffic for an hour, how much of an impact does that have?
A lot of good points here, including the environmental cost of embodied energy and of sourcing materials like cobalt used in manufacturing batteries and end-of-life disposal. The main factors that have put me off buying a hybrid are battery degradation and wear on other components like inverters, all of which are expensive to replace. Apart from all that, it's difficult to get important technical information on things like the battery chemistry used by particular models, and this applies to EVs as well. For example, Toyota used NiMH batteries in its hybrids for many years, but now they are being replaced by Lithium batteries, however they don't go out of their way to inform the public and it's hard to find out what particular chemistry they use; and nobody knows how long they will last. This is not helped by the mainstream motoring press, which is more concerned with cupholder size and sheer performance than technical details on how a car works. This is why so many cars now are full of soft-touch interiors and have turbo-charged engines with more acceleration than a normal person needs, but you have to park them outside in case they catch fire. And that's just ICE cars, never mind the hazards associated with Lithium batteries. There's a reason for airline restrictions on lithium batteries, but what happens on the ground in the event of a car accident involving a wholly or partly electrified vehicle? I'll keep my almost 15-year-old naturally aspirated manual car until it becomes unroadworthy and/or uneconomical to run rather than buy something that's effectively disposable after half that time. I still get more or less the same mileage from it as when it was new. On the other hand, the auto industry, like a lot of the modern world, is advancing progressively backwards.
I have a 2022 Volvo V60 T8 Recharge PHEV long range. (18.8 kwh battery) It's a wagon. I love that. (I do not like SUVs) It's got 460 combined Hp. Zoom! 0-100 in 4.5 sec. I love that. It goes up to 90 km on electric alone. Pleasant. (Not fast). It recharges in 5.5 hours from my full house solar system. Kinda feels good. 90km on a daily basis covers 80% of my general transportation all "free" from the sun. Nice. The longer distances on the gas engine means zero range anxiety and freedom to go anywhere anytime. The gas engine has 313 hp alone and is remarkably smooth and quiet. The tech management of a front wheel drive gas engine and rear wheel drive electric happens remarkably seamlessly. Astonishing really. The quality fit and finish is impressive. Good long term warranty. It ticks a lot of boxes. Resale value? Well can't have everything. But for my current interests it's pretty darn good. I sold my Mercedes C43 AMG and I've not really lost anything and gained in a bunch of areas. Happy like crazy. And my wife loves it too which is a huge bonus! 😁
replacement on hybrids battery not lithium one is 4k
Hi John, Purchased a 2021 Toyota Camry Hybrid. Absolutely love it !. Best car I have ever owned and I've mucked around with HSV'S & FPV. I love the fuel economy and the quietness. Air con on, urban driving and it indicates 4.2 l / 100. I love that you don't have to plug in, don't have to worry about range although it indicates 1089kms per tank of fuel. I must admit I chickened out at 1000 klms, but hey I'm happy with that. Because you won't catch me pushing the car on the side of the road. But at least I can go wherever I like and not be dictated to by a charging station or have to wait 8 hrs at Dingo Piss Ck. I'm hanging onto this one because the price of fuel is only going to go up and seldomly goes down. Your point about re couping costs?. I don't exactly subscribe to your concepts because on the weekends I do a bit of moonlighting ( Uber) and I can do $600 dollars of work each week and fill up fortnightly. I must admit I've had to re learn how to drive the car. Rolling around town and feather the accelerator and you'll get great economy. I wonder on highway cycle can I go from Brisbane to Sydney on one tank?. I shed a tear for those suckered driving their Range Rovers filling up with 98 octane fuel at almost $2 a litre. 😝😝😝
That would have Li-Ion batteries too, which are more powerful than the old NiMH ones.
I rather choose the RAV hybrid over the Mitsubishi PHEV any day. I would have chosen the RAV4 Prime but as you say it’s not available here and no doubt will be overpriced. I understand over 500,000 Americans bought the RAV4 hybrid last year. 2020 Drive car of the year. Good choice Mr Physiotherapist
It's interesting that in the U.S, Ryobi use the peak voltage in their battery marketing. E.g that same 36V battery is labelled "40V". (40V being the voltage when fully charged). I like the Aussie labelling better - i.e - the average voltage during a full discharge.
Full discharge for the battery back you mentioned is between 25v and 31v depending on the chemistry of the battery used.
@@shane0yourgod are you referring to the nominal voltage, or the voltage at full discharge?
@@gregsullivan7408 Referring to full discharge, as you mentioned. I have a 10s4p pack of Samsung 30q cells. I don’t discharge it that much but each cell can be discharged to 2.5V safely. So 25v for a 10s pack.
@@shane0yourgod sure, and it depends on the BMS as well - i.e - how far the BMS allows the cells to be discharged. The exact cutoff voltage doesn't make much difference to the amount of energy extracted, and John's calculation of the watt-hours is accurate.
@@gregsullivan7408 sure, but 36v is still very charged.
We bought a 2017 Toyota Rav 4 Hybrid in early 2018. We have 40,000km+ on it now, which is not overmuch for the average Canadian driver. Why did we buy it in the first place? Dependability and cost savings in city driving. I was sold when I spoke to several taxi drivers including one in Edmonton, Alberta who had 400,000km on a Toyota hybrid and ran the car in teams 24 hours a day. In Edmonton. If you know where Edmonton is you can well imagine what winters are like there and what stresses have been put on the vehicle. So the robustness of the system is beyond question. My wife drives mostly in urban stop-and-go. Do we save money on fuel? Yes, at least marginally. There are little to no savings on highway driving, but in the city there are definite advantages. Is that going to be enough to cover both the increased up-front cost and the eventual replacement of the battery? No, definitely not. However, the SUV itself does not disappoint in other areas: It drives now as if it is new off the lot. I'm always amazed how smooth it is on ECO setting. SPORT setting makes quite a bit of difference and while I'm not talking about a Jekyll/Hyde transformation, it is way beyond my experience with other cars. I call it "Beast Mode" and it does turn my pedestrian soccer-mom (football-mom for you Shitsvillians) Rav4 into a sporty, accelerator-loving mini-monster in search of a highway with fresh asphalt and tight bends in it. Do I regret my purchase? Nope, not for a minute.
Well said John.
I am very much a car nut but also somewhat of a greenie too and proudly work in an area which advocates for sustainability. I'm an advocate for renewables, improving air quality and general environmental protection.
Unfortunately I find that so many people are greenwashed and I get so many people comment on the fact that I don't drive a vehicle which they perceive as 'green' and I try to explain why what I drive isn't in all that bad in reality.
Your comments about the manufacturing processes and waste are rarely considered and I think people are unwilling to consider the problem any more than superficially. I wish I could articulate this as well as you with your fine use of words.
Whilst I enjoy driving (including some limited racing) I would sooner drive less kilometres and opt for cycling, walking or public transport rather than purchasing an expensive hybrid vehicle with little to no benefit to me.
And yes, I have driven a few hybrid vehicles and they're pretty good but I cannot justify the purchase of one over and internal combustion vehicle at this stage. I would consider an EV but at the moment I cannot afford the outlay.
Correct me if I'm wrong but a Toyota hybrid, as sold here in Australia, stores energy that would otherwise be wasted and then uses that energy to power the vehicle. A PHEV stores and uses energy from the power grid that, here in Australia, is powered mostly by burning coal? I not sure i see the environmental benefits of PHEV's here in Australia currently.
Ok.. so I just totally listened to the David attenbro of cars..... I love a good doco 😂❤ thanks bro... subbed so I can catch the next doco.... and yes very helpful.... lucky my algorithms picked up on what I've been looking into for days now.... very truthful and knowledgeable you are... cheers Yoda 😂😂
May the Force be with you, dude.
Great report! Many Thanks again!
What do you think of the KIA Sportage hybrid ? I hear it handles better with greater power.
Thank you, John, appreciate all your work
I always pop my manual 1990 kf laser 1.8, e.f.i. into neutral everytime I travel on down slope rds to save fuel. That's my hybrid, 😆.
"The solution to to all problems gets better in proportion to how well you manage to define them" - love that John - great approach on so many levels and relevant not just to cars. Is that your own saying or did you borrow it from elsewhere?
Just brilliant , cheered me up no end !!!
I'm green. I put a 5 speed (overdrive) manual transmission in my '73 Camaro that has a cammed up .100" over bore 454, stuffed under the hood (bonnet). The overdrive lowers the cruising RPM of the engine on the highway.
Did you put eco tyres on it?
I doesn't take much for you to feel green! A friend of mine put a Nova 4 cylinder with overdrive & 4.80 differential in his Corvette. Better cornering due to less weight in front. His Vette club pals hated it but they had to stop for gas at least once a day.
Fuel consumption figures are only true for the hybrid, but for the normal Rav4, the average for such a heavy car would be around 9 - 10 L/100k for mixed driving.
No way you'd get the claimed 6.5 litres, unless you're travelling on the highway.
So the actual saving on fuel would be around at least 40%.
Now if you're comparing the Toyota with Mitsubishi, the Toyota has more power and I'd say better quality. Mitsubishi feels more like Kmart compared to Toyota!
Well said. John was misleading in his comparison of real world fuel economy differences between petrol v hybrid.
I got the new Camry SX Hybrid and have had it since December last year and already on my first tank I started to save money on fuel. I get now about 850 - 900 kms f r a 50l tanks.5.2l p/100, that alone compared to my previous shchit box ford territory on diesel I was getting 600-700 kms per tanks. I do 300km per week going work and home. It's definitely worth it.
Love the video. Very informative. Hope a lot of people would think like this. 👍
Now thats puting all the facts out there 2 thumbs up dude
Right on.
Couple of years ago I test drove the then new RAV4 Hybrid amongst a raft of vehicles I was evaluating. Performance was, well, completely underwhelming. I was surprised at how crap it was. Then it dawned on me. My inflated expectations were set by the motoring media who kept telling me in reviews the extra oomf from the RAV4 Hybrid's electric drivetrain was terrific. What a con.
As to doing something much more useful for environment - absolutely home/office solar PV systems for the win (or improving the thermal performance of your home). Unfortunately home battery storage is not particularly green, especially in the eastern states of QLD/NSW/VIC (and it sucks financially).
That's because all you are doing is time shifting solar PV energy from the day to the night, and both day and night grids still have a high proportion of coal power in the mix, all while losing energy in round trip efficiency losses which would otherwise have been available to offset daytime coal power. And killing daytime coal power demand will shut down coal plants faster than lowering nighttime demand. In grids where daytime renewables dominate but nighttime power is largely fossil, e.g. South Australia, then home batteries are an environmental positive.
That said, just like you point out with hybrid cars, the published data on the embedded carbon cost isn't exactly readily available. There are studies but are generic in nature. It's not like you can look it up for your Tesla Powerwall or LG or Sonnen battery etc. End of life recovery or disposal costs are not considered. It's just assumed they will have value and that's not really been established yet. There are nascent EV battery recyclers in Australia, so at least we'll get some indication of the commercial viability of that processing path.
This is Kirkland from Jamaica, thank you for this video it just help me made up my about the hybrid
You have not heard the full story from John. I added more facts above.
correction! Fuel is not cheap anymore!
As a PHEV owner for the past half decade allow me to say that you may be underselling PHEV's a little bit. My PHEV can do highway speeds (120km/hr) for 50km in EV mode without the gas engine ever coming on. Fully 2/3 of all our driving in the vehicle has been in electric-only mode. We save on average about $2,000 (CAD) per year in fuel compared to our old TDI wagon.
Great, loved the opportunity cost point @ the end.
We are on the same page regarding the RAV4 environmental credentials and “savings”.
I was however, considering the Accord hybrid rather than the conventional turbo. The hybrid is only $1200 US more and gets a real world 47 miles per gallon vs 31 mpg in the 1.5 turbo. That’s a 50 percent improvement in fuel economy in a slightly faster car. Does that change your equation enough to tempt you?
Of course the battery environmental issues are still there but not to the Extent of an all EV with It’s much larger battery pak.
In a way, the hybrid, has less of a pollution impact in the mining and making and recycling of those rare and toxic materials.
Does the fifty percent greater fuel economy make it worth it?
Yep been there done that hybrid stuff It was great but didn’t cover the type of Typograph I travel. Iv gone back to a 4x4 diesel UTE (cannon) I feel safe in this vehicle.
Hi John, heard it from someone who in turn also heard it from someone else, Scobie Liberaceson has jumped the shark and bought one of these.first tick on the option's list is total Scotchgard, second is the exclusive self inflating Pedo Mutton Scarecrow.
You can certainly take that as gospel.
I took apart a 52v ebike battery to harvest some cells recently( Samsung 35E) was all going fine till a strip of them peeled off at once. As i was using a little too much force on one end of the connecting welded joining strips it folded right over to the cell on the other end, BOOM. We all know how much fun a Lithium ion battery fire can be, after the explosion first. I kicked them out of the garage into the open driveway, a mini 4th July. Pics to prove it if you like.
I am probably going to be criticised, but I bought an MG HS Phev earlier this year for "she who likes to be obeyed". There was no desire to be particularly green. I like technology and this car is full of it. I also bought it because one of the criticisms by the vast majority of motoring journalists out there said the ride wasn't very sporty. As we live on a wonderfully appalling country road on the outskirts of Sydney, sport ride is the last thing we want. So far our experience with this PHEV is excellent. It genuinely does 61kms on pure battery cruising at 80 to 90kph for our local country needs. Performance on pure eclectic is surprisingly good. However, acceleration performance on the combined petrol and electric is outstanding. My local roads are barely wide enough for 2 cars to pass, so overtaking performance is important to us and this car has it in spades. Our regular commutes into Sydney are around 60 to 80kms with hilly country and heavy traffic with petrol consumption around 5.5litres/100kms which none of my previous cars have got near in our area.
I agree that PHEVs are not sensible in pure dollar terms, but that is not the only reason we buy cars. It turns out I like driving this MG PHEV as much as my diesel V8 rocket ship. Also there is no range anxiety as it has reasonable regenerative braking (could be stronger in my opinion) and the petrol motor puts power back into the 16.6kwh battery surprisingly effectively. Charging off a normal 10amp power point takes around 6 hours which we do about once a week.
So, at this stage, this type of Plug In Hybrid for people like us is a totally effective choice. I am not disappointed and my wife absolutely loves it. Her previous car was a 2014 Honda Civic Sport which she thought she loved until she tried the MG.
If you lived in a city suburban location with a daily commute less than 60kms, this car would be fine and you can still go away for weekend trips to Melbourne etc without range anxiety.
JC, Love the work you do for us mere mortals. Thank you.
A guy I know from Melb had a Phev, his complaint was that it forced him to use the petrol quite often to avoid the fuel going stale. Did you run into that ??
@@kerrynball2734 Not as yet. Mainly because our trips are either 16kms each way locally which is mainly on electric or around 70km into Sydney Suburbs there and 70kms back. So the 36 litres of fuel seem to last at least 2 or 3 weeks which I don't think is to bad for fuel. Also I use 95 plus as recommended by MG and also my personal preference right or wrong.
I am first to admit the MG PHEV could do with a software update in the infotainment area to improve the boot up speed etc, but then I am retired, so what is the rush. It could probably use a better control shock absorber though definitely not a deal breaker. I will probably put better shocks on down the road. Because I live in hilly country, I would like to see a software update to increase the regenerative braking (which is currently not bad, but could be stronger) and allow more choice to the strength of the regen braking. I suspect that would actually increase the combined overall distance available.
So as one of the Ads on TV say..."Still loven it"
Thanks John. Coherent points that resonate with my internal dilemmas. 15 year old Italian car has just took a final breath. Sad, but probably 10 years later than expected!
The 25 yr old Camry V6 wagon is still purring along.
My current thought is we buy a small petrol car for the family to use for short commutes and wait for improvements in the tech before we take an electric plunge. I'm still hoping that the hydrogen tech is sorted out even though the energy conversion losses seen huge. The benefit of being able to 'fill-up' in minutes send powerful in Aus, but they'll still need much of that virgin rare-earth material that you highlight. For now, I'll keep peddling my pushy to work, as much as my aging body will let me and listen to the birds as long as I can. Let's hope for governments who actually do something about the big issues rather than making us feel guilty about doing the essentials.
Putting aside that clean energy bandwagon, is it (hybrid) really a practical alternative to a standard petrol or diesel powered cars ? For a comparison, between a petrol powered vs hybrid RAV 4. Cost difference between the two is ~6,000 AUD. Say an average consumption between them is 3.5 li/km (just an estimate), average petrol price = 1.75/li. And assuming you drive 15,000km/yr then the total savings per year will be close to 920AUD. Breakeven between car price difference vs yearly savings will be 8 years. By that time the maximum battery efficiency will be 80% (estimated lost of non polymer type lithium ion is 2.3% every 15,000 km distance assuming weight of the car = 2.2tons and annual average temperature ~ 25 Celcius). Hence you will have to replace the battery for around 8,000 AUD (including service). So in total you will lose 2000 AUD 8 years in the process. The only sensible way to save some money is to sell the car in 3-4 years where the resale value is at its peak.