Replace Freedo with Sam and this is so perfect lmao. Freedo just oozes, "im keeping everything as positive as possible so blizzard keeps inviting me to events."
I quit watching him after his video about how putting heroes in the battle pass is good, actually. I hate calling people shills, but if ever there was one, it's him.
Freedo can be weird in his rhetoric and contrarian sometimes, but he’s far from a shill. He lambasted Blizzard multiple times throughout his career. He just likes the current direction.
Flats was actually COOKING with the Apex talent trees idea, instead of preventing people from counterswapping they're rewarded for staying the same hero. This would both refresh the game and lessen the counterswapping
That’s the thing the devs haven’t really addressed: there’s no alternatives BESIDES counterswapping as tanks. We’ve seen this so many times of “how devs discourage certain player behaviors” that the best way to make people stop doing something is by giving a better alternative, not punishing said behavior. For example: WoW and logging off bonuses. Instead of making people log off or have nerfed XP gain the longer they stay on, the devs lowered the base XP gain and gave bonuses for the longer time you spent offline. But OW2 and counterswapping, what is the alternative? Making the team comp good? If the team’s Sojourn/Tracer/Lucio/Kiriko, literally any and every tank works in that slot. There is simply nothing stopping you from playing RPS with the enemy tank.
I respect the option to upload it later than SVB, but could u put the date on the description? So we know which one it is, and most importantly it gives a better view on which state of the game they r discussing on
I think the hate for Freedo stems from the way he delivers his points; which always goes into how he was always right back in the OW1 days and how he called this or that so he is right on this or that? And it comes off as him being so stuck in the past of when he was supposedly right, that he is always right now even with good points being made. Freedo isn't a bad guy, he is just unwilling to accept that he's not the OW Prophet who knows everything. Everyone can give good points, but that doesn't mean that will fix the issue or is the ONLY way to solve things. I don't think anyone on SVB podcast deserves hate. At the end of the day it's an opinion on a game, not the true meaning of life. But I will admit, he could put things in a better way to not sound condescending. That is where proper speech comes into play. But even Flats admits, he is blunt, he say things how he feels without sugar coating. That is basically Freedo, but more in a condescending way. Is he being condescending; that is the thing up to debate. But he definitely, 100% needs to learn how to put things BETTER than he has been.
This is the exact reason. Most people (self included) don't like him because he just sounds arrogant and condescending. But they'll use another reason instead like saying he is a blizzard shill or doesn't like 6v6 which just makes them sound equally stupid.
@xythiera7255 i don't even think it's that, he just has a lot of bad takes simply because he's not high ranked. If he can't figure out why he can't get past plat/low diamond or whatever it is, then he can't analyze the game well. I'm around the same rank as him and I wouldn't claim to know the game like he says he does. He's said before he speaks for plats when I'd say most plats would disagree with him. For me, I think balance should be based off high ranks because it's based off what's high/peak execution can do, which is fair. I can accept a skill issue. Balance shouldn't be based off of a skill issue, which is why I think it's stupid for devs to balance the game around lower ranks like they do, which also makes Freedo's and plats takes on balance just invalid to listen to. If Rein is shit at high ranks, they should buff him. No bs about lower ranks getting terrorized by Rein, if they're bad at fighting him then that's just a skill issue end of story. Idc if Rein is dominating gold if he's non-existent in high ranks. That should be the gold's problem to figure out how to overcome it, not for a top 500 player to be punished for.
@@xythiera7255it’s so wild to read things like this. At one point Freedo was a hater, but now all of a sudden he’s a shill. The truth is that Freedo has a particular way he likes the game to be and depending on what is happening currently will determine what side of the fence he’s on. Honestly I think the real problem is people just don’t like his communication style (which is objectively lacking especially in the debate format), but they can’t place why they don’t like him so they lock in on his stance on issues rather than his lack of cohesive logic.
@fkatar9757 no offense to freedo isnt he like master's? Id rather have actual top 500 players talk about balance or if they really want a lower rankd advice get like a diamond or plat streamer
@vape42069 that's even worse I get they want a average rank perspective, but he should understand that he isn't the most knowledgeable in the room. He constantly gives off the impression he is talking down to the people on the other side of the argument and has a very know it all attitude
Thought the same *at first* ngl, but man.. You guys are just either blindly hating the guy or coping because the guy is _SPITTIN’ FACTS!_ Like.. damn, you guys are really harsh and with all due respect.. *_stupid.._* honestly, you guys just are IF.. *_you have the possible solutions to 5v5 to consider._*
@@AdhvaithSane I don't like freedo because he makes up stuff, saying the game was never meant to be 222 and you were supposed to be lucky if you got 1 tank even though the game had a message on the side saying warning you have no tank or warning you don't have a support like...
There was a time when counter-swapping is just a thing that high rankers do to min-max their game. Nowaday, I have to deal with the enemy tank swapping after every time I swap... in HIGH PLAT
I’ve seen the behavior all the way down from Gold 4, up to Masters. The worst part: there is literally no downside to counterswapping. No real consideration of map, no thought of team composition; there is no reason to not counterswap on every death. Doesn’t help that the main meta tanks always in rotation fill very similar roles (Mauga, Orisa, Zarya, Ramm), so all your counterswap options are only brawl comps. Like when is the last time anyone has played tank and swapped for non-counterswap reasons?
@orenjiminto I feel like nobody ever mentions the quick play experience when these discussions come up. For a casual game mode, it's absolutely miserable. I don't think I've seen a single match without at least one Sombra/Mei or Hog/Mauga. Literally had a game earlier today where the enemy tank was complaining that one of my DPS was playing as widow, calling them a "sweaty tryhard" The enemy team immediately swapped to Sombra, Venture, Kiri, Brig and Ram. How you can flame someone for playing Widow, one of the most popular characters in the game, and then immediately all of you counter-swap that one player, is beyond me. TLDR, quick play is sweatier than the majority of comp games I've played, and people only hate counters when they're not the one getting countered. I just want to vibe and enjoy playing Lucio ffs.
counter swapping is prevalent in basically every rank I'm currently bronze one silver 5 area on tank and almost every game the first tank to die just counter picks and if they don't swap they get rolled all game and i win the devs really need to come up with something its getting out of hand
@@chazz666 The truth is, Freedo argues against 6v6, and people don’t like that. It’s made worse by the fact that he makes points that other streamers can’t really refute. So, like in this video, they have to just agree with 6v6 being a mistake to go back to. I personally don’t care either way in the debate, but Freedo does make more factual points.
@@nycempirestate4689 nobody cares that he argues against 6v6, nobody shits on jake or surefor because they genuinely know what theyre talking about freedo just says shit and none of it is true
Thats what he allways does he chills for Blizzard insanely heavy and now he basicly gas lights the entire Overwatch playerbase . What he does it bring points in that are so one dimantional you can only agree to what he wants you to agree to . He has no real depth to anything he says . Meaby thats why no body ever realy agrees with anything he says .
@@nycempirestate4689it’s not that he argues against it, but I his arguments against 6v6 are calling people that disagree with him “flat earthers” with no logic argument as to why. It’s pathetic. He claims to have “receipts” and “facts” but nothing, to include all of overwatch history, supports what he’s saying.
I have watched one episode of this podcast that was like for season 9 or 10 i forget but like freedo has already let such a negative perspective for me for this podcast
I mean kinda I just wish he didn't yell half the time it kinda drags down the podcast when that happens in my opinion I'm fine with his points I just don't like how often he devolves into a rage induced child screaming about his points and saying they're just flat out fact and if you disagree it means you're dumb
Mauga ult is such a cool ult in concept because locking you and the other guy in a pure 1v1 is so cool, I really like how Iso in valorant literally takes the two of you into a pocket dimension for a fair clean 1v1 but when mauga does it his team can still heal him and shoot inside but your team can't so its just another form of cc by locking you away from your team
It is, flats waits a while before he uploads the podcast he's on to his channel because he wants to minimise the amount of viewership he'll take from SVB since he's more popular
@@placidflunky6642 why should he take any though? Seems kind of scummy. If youre invited on thebpodcast, you should want the podcast to get the views instead of your own video smh
@@keeganbate8935 Uploading it later minimizes the hit to the originals views while spreading the existence of the podcast to the rest of his fan base. Seems more beneficial to svb than harmful
Agreed, played 200 games one season and got to top 500 there, met a lot of people with the same feeling that just miss the 6v6 gameplay (which is 10x better)
Stop including freedo... just stop. I'm starting to feel embarrassed for him... I've never seen somebody so oblivious and wrong, yet remain arrogant and sure he's right.
How could someone be oblivious, wrong, ”arrogant” and right *all* at the *_the same_* time??? You know, that almost sounds exactly like someone who would accuse a guy of being right to being wrong about certain problems WITH *NO* _REGARD_ to the possible solutions to those same problems, not even trying… because it’s pointless..? Well. Then why don’t we figure that out instead of just saying “it’s pointless” or “it’s not worth the effort” or whatever excuse you or anyone else might give.
My last match was a King's Row Sigma game, I killed their backline while constantly pushing their Rein back. Guess who was flamed after the cart not moving trought the first corner.
if you want to ease up the counter swapping vs tank, make changing roles available after a point is won or lost. this would limit the counter swapping make choices more stable and make the team more conscious of what the enemy is actualy doing.
That first point is huge. Its not even tank, its the culture. Not only all of this "tAnK dIfF" bs, but also the burdens. Tanks are somehoe expected to do everything. No one wants to play around a tank, they want to play their own game but still have their tank doing good. This is a team game, it needs teamwork and cooperation, its not CoD. No one wants to play around the enemy tank either, other than "hog=ana." If their tank is doing good, its because your tank isnt countering them enough. Everything is tanks fault and no one wants to actually play with the tank
The core issue of 5v5 is that Tanking only comes from one angle. DPS can come from two angles, support can come from two angles, but tanking can only come from one place. This means tanks who would traditionally like to take an off angle do not have this freedom. You can’t take an off angle because this leaves your team to just get collapsed on. So either you stay with your team or your team comes to you. THIS is what leads to stare-offs down main like on Colosseo. Now that a stare-off down main has been effectively forced for most of the ladder, this is where the rock paper scissors comes in and forces oppressive metas.
5v5 balanced the fun of being OT with the stress of being MT. Playing MT in OW1 was genuinely horrible - the worst gaming experience of my life. 6v6 needs to stay dead.
@@theyrenihilistsit did neither of those things. You can not main tank because of the simple fact of pushing forward 99% of the time takes too many team resources (which you have a whole character less of now) And tanks who focus on picks can just easily explode against certain counters. Yet when you see a tank become meta, yes it is because they can do both roles, but that means you get the unkillable wall Orisa or infinite healing picking Hog. Or everything that is Mauga with a buff.
We're really at the point where we have 3 hour videos of discussing tank, and instead of addressing how the format is the problem, we're discussing new ways to complicate the game which are not going to solve the problem with tank. It is literally the draw 25 new solutions or go back to 6v6, and currently we're at 46 cards.
I mean 6v6 will absolutely still have it's own set of issues and with the state of the game rn and how the devs go about dealing with the meta and character balance I don't trust them to not break 6v6 and somehow cook up something worse than double barrier
@@sebastianrodriguez8992 6v6 would have Issues like Sustain But it would fix - Solo Tank Pressure - Boring Gameplayloop - Tanks needing reworks to fit in (and even then dont fit i n) - Tanks wouldnt need to be Raid Bosses - You would have more Freedom on what to play because Counterswaps are way less Impactul Theres probably even more things but just stuff like that would be fixed and if they have to figure out how to make Sustain and Shields not opressive id take that instead
@@heiko2255 True it's mainly just the fact this is entirely based on the idea that blizzard would suddenly gaf about overwatch and try to seriously fix the game and it's issues and not do like 100 bandaid fixes and then we run into a sustain and barrier meta where we'd probably get crap like sigma mauga every game
@@sebastianrodriguez8992 I mean, they are trying to fix 5v5 but its just way harder than 6v6 You will never get rid of Counterswaps without changing how the game works, so they slap bunch of band-aids on that And i agree they are stupid for doing so, they did that with Dive (Release Brig) or with Goats (release 2-2-2) and while i do think 2-2-2 was a good decision, if they would actually target the issues directly, it would not have been needed I believe a 2x Shield meta would never happen again, Orisa is reworked and theres bunch of new Shield Piercing heroes (Queen, Ram, Venture, Mauga) and the new Devs might be dumb, but they are atleast fast A dogshit meta in OW2 lasts a month at best, if it were the OW1 devs we would still be fighting OP Tank Doom from S2 And even if the meta is shit, atleast in 6v6 97% of players can pick what they want and dont need to counterswap or get Solo Blasted on tank
The bottom line is the community IQ has dropped severely once the game went free to play. Solo tank will always feel oppressive if your team does not understand how to support you in the given TEAM matchup. This goes for every role, but once you hit higher ranks no amount of counter swapping on tank will ever matter if your team does not know their role in the counter.
When you magically find a way to fix all of the massive, sprawling issues with two tanks that the devs couldn’t after six years of monthly balance patches
@@Peachmain1 This, exactly this. When will people stop complaining about 6v6, Lootboxes, PvE. edit: The argument has lost its weight. It’s been almost 2 years since the cancellation, that’s what I’m referring to. For clarification
@@dadrako1581yes the balance was just as bad no matter the format cuz blizzard sucks dick at balancing. 6v6 was much easier to balance, and this is proven cuz tank in ow1 never got the attention it needed.
@@bluefaygox23 The fact people still talk about 6v6 makes it clear that 5v5 hasnt been the best decision for a majority of people I dont even know why people say "How do we fix OW2 without going to 6v6" because i think if 6v6 would fix the game less people would be upset all the time about dumb shit like Counterswaps or shooting a unkillable hog or orisa or mauga or ramattra And please dont come with the 2x Shield argument, this was fixed by reworking Orisa and introducing more Shield penetration heroes like Ram, Queen or Mauga. Not to mention going back to 6v6 would lower HP and Shield HP of all tanks. As someone who doesnt enjoy the game anymore i dont see why 6v6 should not be an option
Talent trees in Overwatch that are tied to the Hero are a really interesting idea to discourage counter swaps spiraling out of control. Curious how much power they would have to take out of kits to make that not get too crazy
All I know is that tank and only the tank experience specifically will be fixed with 6v6. Ow will still have its problems that we’re facing now and more but for the tank conversation in particular, I think that’s the only solution.
I have played 1000+ games on tank this season, Either stomping or getting stomped. Team always blames the tank. Dva not as good as she was and dies easily now, it is not fun. I want to DIVEEEE. I get countered every match. Every match, it's Zarya, Reaper, Mei, brig, mercy or Mauga, cass, bastion, zen
Only way to fix it is 6v6 just make tank 2 roles main tank and off tank separate the shield tanks from the dive tanks aka off tanks and then u can’t fuss about double shield because u can’t que 2 shield tanks
1:17:00 this speaks volumes on the current situation in a weird way, because if this is true, why wouldnt they bring back 6v6 as an arcade mode, why wouldnt they do an april fools event with 6v6, why wont they address it (They could if they wanted to even run an alternative comp season to see player feedback and see if the issues of queue times are still prevalent in OW2)? This would maybe not bring back the hardcore comp players or anything, but I would think it would at the very least allow people to in a way play ow1 again, it would bring players back to play the game casually and make them money with the shop and microtransactions. But they just straight up ignore it, despite it being a MASSIVE discussion regarding the game amongst pro players, content creaters, and casuals/viewers. I unfortunately think that they cant bring it up at all. They already axed PVE and all the promises that they/the old dev team made, bringing back 6v6 would admit that OW2 was a cash shop & graphical update. At this point theyre trying to bend a triangle into a circle, pushing 5v5 to its limits because they cant use the old wheel which was carved into a circle from the start.
Honesty my take from this is that there is a bunch of pressure on the tank to get the job done. Since its 5v5 instead of 6v6 the whole idea of team synergy is heavily enforced if you want to perform well. I am a dps player since OW 1 as of rn so I can't understand from their pov but I can see the pattern of tanks being under pressure for everything. Without a second tank. Most of the responsibilities of the two tanks are now left to one tank to carry out. Which in design unfun in a competitive setting forcing tanks to multi task and hope their dps to clear out their team for them to push on it and have the heals to enable them to frontline and push
Can you SVB have Spilo instead Freedo in the broadcast? Spilo knowledge about the game and the community really bring more to the podcast Freedo I have no hate against other than his constantly gaslight tactics toward people around him, especially new players, that everyone LIKE playing Counterwatch
the only change id ever make to sigma is to make him move maybe 5-10% faster. not faster cooldowns or rate of fire, just slightly faster walking speed. only thing he doesnt have is a movement ability (ult i guess you can use to reposition some) and i think giving him just a little bit more speed makes him just a hair more survivable. not so much that he becomes dive, just enough to have a chance at getting to cover if you get overwhelmed. just enough that you can keep up with the group when youre moving to the point.
The whole game will need a complete rebalance but I think there does lie a problem with the asymmetry of 5v5 with how the characters, maps, and gameplay is designed. I'm an absolute noob, and it'd never happen because it would change the game entirely, but I think there needs to be 2 hybrid roles if they want to stick with 5v5. They need 1 Tank, 1 bruiser, 1 DPS, 1 Support, 1 Healer because when there's only 1 of a specific role, there is no way to fill or supplement aspects of that role when that role is dead. My wild take is that you keep tanks. Then you make a bruiser class, such as Doomfist, Ball, Roadhog, Junker Queen (you're non-shield less traditional tanks), reduce their health slightly and minorly increase their output (whether cooldowns or slight DPS buff) so that they can help support the main tank, but not let it get as oppressive as 6v6 by making them a hybrid of damage/hp. Then have 1 DPS, 1 support (taking your more damage-dealing supports such as baptiste, moira, illari etc) and balancing them to be more of a hybrid position of healing and damage, and then leave one healer who's purpose is to coordinate with the support to help ensure survivability. So essentially 5v5 with Tank, DPS, Healer and then 2 hybrid roles, 1 to fit inbetween tank and DPS, and another to fit inbetween DPS and healer. There'd be so much balancing to do, but at least when your tank dies, you're bruiser can hopefully supplement SOME (not all) of the aspects of the tank role until they respawn, so you don't get rolled and same with the other roles. 3 defined roles that are good at one thing, and 2 hybrids that are decent at two things to allow overlap in roles to better allow more team cooperation.
Just call it "off tank" I also had the same idea. Only downside is that multiple heroes would have to be reworked and tank que could be an issue depending on how they implement only being able to pick 1 main tank and 1 off tank. Also your hybrid idea of DPS+healer doesn't really make sense since some supports already do a lot of damage or slightly less healing than others.
All the other roles got changes were personal paying can be good and let you win, except for tank. Not many tanks got the ability to affect the game based on solo plays
The thing about tank is, the stronger they are, the more they'll get focused, getting all the cc's, counters etc. Otherwise they''ll just walk freely and kill everyone. And btw, tanks usually doing more damage than the "damage" role? WTF? WHAT GAME IS THIS?
I mean tanks do more damage over the course of the game just because they are more active in terms of dealing damage and or the ability to damage multiple targets (your winton and reins) pretty sure every dps characters has more overall dps than every tank at base with a few exceptions (dva using missiles which is a cooldown or high charge zarya, and if shes high charge she is fragile and immobile) there is absolutely nothing wrong with tanks ending up with more overall damage at the end of the game
cant figure if you're being sarcastic or not, but tanks usually will get the most ressources from their supports and just being in the front will mean more damage dealt. just incase you are actually serious for some reason
Well yea… if the tanks did low damage how would they take space? How would they make u respect their own space as well? Tank as a role needs to do damage. Simple as that.
I mean true but their damage is less impactful because of them not possessing the dps passive so their damage can honestly get out healed most of the time without DPS support
honestly playing tank now doesnt even feel like its tank rock paper scissors anymore. its TEAM rock paper scissors. Ill be on doom or winston with a genji and an ash with mercy ana and the enemy team will insta swap to hog, ana, brig, cassidy and sombra, and even if i swap off to a tank that counters any of their characters, if none of my other teammates make the commitment to counter them with me, it literally does NOTHING.
Tank will always feel awful cuz they don't wanna nerf stuff. This mentality of making sure everyone feels good about changes actively harms the game. They dont wanna risk the week where kiriko players and hitscan players moan and groan. I played a game yesterday where our team had Sojourn and Ashe, the enemy tank couldn't play the game. Even Mauga with cardiac up just melted like butter. And the damage problem is specifically a hitscan problem. They two/3 tap the entire cast and have the fire rate of smgs in other games. And then you add dps supports who either open up the tank even more or pump around the same damage as hitscan. They didnt fix tank by adding a headshot modifier debuff because they still do insane amounts of damage is such little time.
@@kameroni283 Generally speaking in other moba games, tanks are often overlooked for the dps carries instead even though tanks maybe the one who made the setup happened and possibly died for it. But that's fine since the team shares the glory and people don't overlook the setups too. As for MMOs im not sure. WoW it might be awful, but I don't hear people complain about it in FF
Honestly, I don't get the hate on Freedo here, he is playing the devils advocate because it should be voiced. He DOES make some good points about not everyone being able to be happy, and people needing to adjust. That said, I do agree with Flats the most here. This is a great debate
31:54 Bogur forgot the occasional: “Not enough shield (mitigated dmg) as it’s already at 20,000. Point being, if you even correlate with tank, smth can be complained abt i swear
Tank is my best role by far but I enjoy playing DPS so much more Sometimes on DPS you won't notice if your teammates aren't doing well, it's so much more noticeable on tank and support
Hot take: split the dps into two different categories dps and flank. It’s very apartment that you need at least one dps and one flank so why not just put that into roll queue. Players that want to play flank hero’s and players who want to play dps can do so. It’s simple but it would be effective.
i mean ppl already know how to do that in pro it’s called a flex dps those are your flankers you don’t need a whole other role to split up the player base even more
Honestly you can still win a lot of the bad tank matchups if you play properly though itll definitely be harder and less fun. But the second you dont switch the tilt it inflicts on the rest of your team is just brutal. You have to play harder and your team is now not concentrating because there pissed at you
I believe the main diference between 5v5 and 6v6 is very simple. The game use to be a moba turned into an fps and it was beatifull. The whole team waited at the choke before going in, there was coordination, there was a need to comunicate, abilities functioned well, but excelled if they were used together (there are exceptions of course brig, bap wait thats funny supports were the problem WOW). It was a team game and now is just a shooter, and not the greatest. I can't understand why people deffend this or say its the same game. IT'S NOT. If u prefer it that's fine, but assume that this is not what we were selled in 2016
Your teams waited at the choke? I remember my team's staggering their deaths, blowing their ults, and waiting until the last possible moment to accidentally regroup lol
@@i.r.weasel7042 I understand it could be frustrating, but the skill floor on tanks wasn’t swapping every 30 seconds, 6v6 haded skill expression and added depth to the gameplay, and yes that I miss
@@fkatar9757 I'm withcha, I'm done with OW2, uninstalled weeks ago (played since OW1 beta), just thought it was funny you said your teams grouped up, because staggering and trickling was rampant and still is today.
@@i.r.weasel7042 same i played since beta aswell and the only yhing i can stand is open queue. I main rein, In role lock i played one season were i counter picked and played the game as blizzard obligates me to do and i got masters, next season as an experiment i played rein only and got stuck at plat 1. I use to play rein whenever i wanted in ow1, sometimes if well execute against 2 shield, the game really sucks
Literally! I mainly play support and i had a ball main in my game who deadass thought we were gonna flame him for picking ball. I told him we were gonna run i dive support comp to help him out more and follow up on his combos/cc. Dude was doing amazing the first round (we were on defense on that one lucio map. Sorry i don't know map names). Even tho they had an ana/hog he was still doing pretty good. I pocketed him on lucio getting him in and out of fights. Then we go to second round on attacking. He still played well but our dps wouldn't help follow up on kills or help push onto point at all. Then in comes the counter picking.....the enemy team went hog, brig, mei, and sombra then just huddled together the rest of the game. Our tank was forced to swap. Then our dps who were 20-11 and 17-11 said it was a tank diff. Just completely ignoring the value our tank got out of playing ball. He had 24 kills and only 6-7 deaths. He also had top dmg at 14k. Me and the moira had 20 kills each with 9k and 12k healing respectfully. Recently i am seeing far more underperforming dps than tanks, which makes no sense to me due to the dps passive being oppressive to tanks and extremely beneficial to dps. Players easily can melt and be melted. I really wish they just nuked dmg and healing numbers......
i don’t follow freedows content but i don’t disagree with most his points, i don’t think he delivers his points as well as the other guests but i think a lot of the people disagreeing is cope or just not tryna see others perspectives.
Idea for Mauga rework: Instead of cage fight being his ult make it his E. Make it so the cage fight is an actual 1v1 where he can only cage one enemy (you lock onto one target and pushes everyone else out), and neither his team nor the enemies team can hurt or heal whoever's inside, nor go in. Much smaller cage and no ability lockout, just keeps both people inside. Cage drops immediately after the 1v1, and whoever wins the 1v1 gets a personal version of his current E, of healing themselves when they do damage. If cage gets destroyed before someone wins the 1v1, no one gets the healing effect. Less time up than current ult, less shield health, and long cooldown. New ult: A supercharged version of his normal charge. More damage than his normal charge (maybe double), and when he charges he's visibly on fire, and sets fire to enemies he runs through, which sets him up to shoot them for critical damage. He can use ult right after doing a normal charge, but only his ult charge is immune to CC (him being on fire effect + ult voiceline would indicate clearly it's not a CC-able charge). Has a short one second wind-up of him flexing his muscles which sets himself on fire, and he says his new ult voiceline, "I'M ON FIRE." His ult can be cancelled during the wind up but once started he can't be CC'd. I think this could make him less of a numbers character and more of a tactical hero where he has to decide correctly when to try to 1v1, also adds a lot more counterplay to all of his abilities.
I mean no disrespect, but Dante is pretty lucky he's professional-level good at the game. Cause as far as balance ideas he brings to the table he's just slingin' coal.
Honestly I think the reason why they’re hesitant to bring back 6v6 is because they understandably hear a lot of shit about ow 2 not having PVE. Maybe they think bringing it back would officially just make ow2 a shittier overwatch? They are very different games now tho so I’m not sure why/if they’d feel that way.
I mean even so, Marvel Rivals being in a flawed state is pretty expected since it's still in beta. OW2 devs have had like 8 years of experience and either they or their bosses are making all these terrible decisions. That's why OW2 being in a horrific state is so much worse.
![The Great Tank Debate [2024] feat. Flats, Danteh, Bogur & Freedo](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ckPGk9pd6n4/mqdefault.jpg)
![Twenty One Pilots - The Line (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XCz7WUotXs8/mqdefault.jpg)
The culture ain't feeling Freedo bruh
This is facts. I used to follow his videos for advice but now I run Into him comp and body him 😂
Replace Freedo with Sam and this is so perfect lmao. Freedo just oozes, "im keeping everything as positive as possible so blizzard keeps inviting me to events."
honestly not even that, he bitches but he is just clueless about the game
I quit watching him after his video about how putting heroes in the battle pass is good, actually. I hate calling people shills, but if ever there was one, it's him.
Freedo can be weird in his rhetoric and contrarian sometimes, but he’s far from a shill. He lambasted Blizzard multiple times throughout his career.
He just likes the current direction.
Flats was actually COOKING with the Apex talent trees idea, instead of preventing people from counterswapping they're rewarded for staying the same hero. This would both refresh the game and lessen the counterswapping
That’s the game. Yall ruining the core of the game with your complaining
Counter-swapping feels like shit though, Why should ppl be punished for playing the hero they want to play? @@atSlickBoiChris
@@atSlickBoiChrisas the other person said, not being able to play heroes you like feels like shit. counter-swapping is dumb and ruins the game imo.
@@atSlickBoiChris youre just mad that maggie sniped you with a sentinel cause she didnt go down the shotgun path with her skills lmao
That’s the thing the devs haven’t really addressed: there’s no alternatives BESIDES counterswapping as tanks. We’ve seen this so many times of “how devs discourage certain player behaviors” that the best way to make people stop doing something is by giving a better alternative, not punishing said behavior.
For example: WoW and logging off bonuses. Instead of making people log off or have nerfed XP gain the longer they stay on, the devs lowered the base XP gain and gave bonuses for the longer time you spent offline.
But OW2 and counterswapping, what is the alternative? Making the team comp good? If the team’s Sojourn/Tracer/Lucio/Kiriko, literally any and every tank works in that slot. There is simply nothing stopping you from playing RPS with the enemy tank.
I respect the option to upload it later than SVB, but could u put the date on the description? So we know which one it is, and most importantly it gives a better view on which state of the game they r discussing on
ruclips.net/video/ckPGk9pd6n4/видео.htmlfeature=shared
I think the hate for Freedo stems from the way he delivers his points; which always goes into how he was always right back in the OW1 days and how he called this or that so he is right on this or that? And it comes off as him being so stuck in the past of when he was supposedly right, that he is always right now even with good points being made. Freedo isn't a bad guy, he is just unwilling to accept that he's not the OW Prophet who knows everything. Everyone can give good points, but that doesn't mean that will fix the issue or is the ONLY way to solve things. I don't think anyone on SVB podcast deserves hate. At the end of the day it's an opinion on a game, not the true meaning of life. But I will admit, he could put things in a better way to not sound condescending. That is where proper speech comes into play. But even Flats admits, he is blunt, he say things how he feels without sugar coating. That is basically Freedo, but more in a condescending way. Is he being condescending; that is the thing up to debate. But he definitely, 100% needs to learn how to put things BETTER than he has been.
Best explanation so far!
This is the exact reason. Most people (self included) don't like him because he just sounds arrogant and condescending. But they'll use another reason instead like saying he is a blizzard shill or doesn't like 6v6 which just makes them sound equally stupid.
That freedo dude is so fucking full of it
Freedo has absolutely no idea off what he is talking about
the problem is he basicly never says anything that coud go against his standing with Blizzard so all he says is washed out
@@xythiera7255 agreed
@xythiera7255 i don't even think it's that, he just has a lot of bad takes simply because he's not high ranked. If he can't figure out why he can't get past plat/low diamond or whatever it is, then he can't analyze the game well. I'm around the same rank as him and I wouldn't claim to know the game like he says he does. He's said before he speaks for plats when I'd say most plats would disagree with him. For me, I think balance should be based off high ranks because it's based off what's high/peak execution can do, which is fair. I can accept a skill issue. Balance shouldn't be based off of a skill issue, which is why I think it's stupid for devs to balance the game around lower ranks like they do, which also makes Freedo's and plats takes on balance just invalid to listen to. If Rein is shit at high ranks, they should buff him. No bs about lower ranks getting terrorized by Rein, if they're bad at fighting him then that's just a skill issue end of story. Idc if Rein is dominating gold if he's non-existent in high ranks. That should be the gold's problem to figure out how to overcome it, not for a top 500 player to be punished for.
@@xythiera7255it’s so wild to read things like this. At one point Freedo was a hater, but now all of a sudden he’s a shill.
The truth is that Freedo has a particular way he likes the game to be and depending on what is happening currently will determine what side of the fence he’s on.
Honestly I think the real problem is people just don’t like his communication style (which is objectively lacking especially in the debate format), but they can’t place why they don’t like him so they lock in on his stance on issues rather than his lack of cohesive logic.
Freedo likes the sound of his own voice and the smell of his own farts.
Freedo is so obnoxious pls don't bring him on the group up podcast
They left samito out of this for a reason 💀💀💀💀
Though exactly about that
Should have been Samito instead of Freedo, Freedo has no clue what he is talking about
@fkatar9757 no offense to freedo isnt he like master's? Id rather have actual top 500 players talk about balance or if they really want a lower rankd advice get like a diamond or plat streamer
@@ChimpRevolutionhe’s barely diamond rn
@@ChimpRevolutionhe's plat
@vape42069 that's even worse I get they want a average rank perspective, but he should understand that he isn't the most knowledgeable in the room. He constantly gives off the impression he is talking down to the people on the other side of the argument and has a very know it all attitude
Replace Freedo with Spilo and this will be the PERFECT podcast
True
Spilo with his coaching knowledge will help build up a better broadcast then this clueless Freedo guy
Nah, with Samito 🔥
Thought the same *at first* ngl, but man..
You guys are just either blindly hating the guy or coping because the guy is _SPITTIN’ FACTS!_
Like.. damn, you guys are really harsh and with all due respect.. *_stupid.._* honestly, you guys just are IF.. *_you have the possible solutions to 5v5 to consider._*
No debate is complete without samito
@@AdhvaithSane I don't like freedo because he makes up stuff, saying the game was never meant to be 222 and you were supposed to be lucky if you got 1 tank even though the game had a message on the side saying warning you have no tank or warning you don't have a support like...
There was a time when counter-swapping is just a thing that high rankers do to min-max their game.
Nowaday, I have to deal with the enemy tank swapping after every time I swap... in HIGH PLAT
I’ve seen the behavior all the way down from Gold 4, up to Masters.
The worst part: there is literally no downside to counterswapping. No real consideration of map, no thought of team composition; there is no reason to not counterswap on every death. Doesn’t help that the main meta tanks always in rotation fill very similar roles (Mauga, Orisa, Zarya, Ramm), so all your counterswap options are only brawl comps.
Like when is the last time anyone has played tank and swapped for non-counterswap reasons?
I get countered every match in bronze/silver/gold and the amount of smurfs is crazy
@orenjiminto I feel like nobody ever mentions the quick play experience when these discussions come up. For a casual game mode, it's absolutely miserable. I don't think I've seen a single match without at least one Sombra/Mei or Hog/Mauga.
Literally had a game earlier today where the enemy tank was complaining that one of my DPS was playing as widow, calling them a "sweaty tryhard"
The enemy team immediately swapped to Sombra, Venture, Kiri, Brig and Ram. How you can flame someone for playing Widow, one of the most popular characters in the game, and then immediately all of you counter-swap that one player, is beyond me.
TLDR, quick play is sweatier than the majority of comp games I've played, and people only hate counters when they're not the one getting countered. I just want to vibe and enjoy playing Lucio ffs.
counter swapping is prevalent in basically every rank I'm currently bronze one silver 5 area on tank and almost every game the first tank to die just counter picks and if they don't swap they get rolled all game and i win the devs really need to come up with something its getting out of hand
5v5 Moment, but hey its better right?
OW2 has been so much better right?
We need timestamps for when freedo isn’t talking absolute bollocks
How come everybody doesn’t like him?
@@chazz666 He says bullshit.
@@chazz666 The truth is, Freedo argues against 6v6, and people don’t like that. It’s made worse by the fact that he makes points that other streamers can’t really refute. So, like in this video, they have to just agree with 6v6 being a mistake to go back to. I personally don’t care either way in the debate, but Freedo does make more factual points.
@@nycempirestate4689 nobody cares that he argues against 6v6, nobody shits on jake or surefor because they genuinely know what theyre talking about freedo just says shit and none of it is true
Thats what he allways does he chills for Blizzard insanely heavy and now he basicly gas lights the entire Overwatch playerbase . What he does it bring points in that are so one dimantional you can only agree to what he wants you to agree to . He has no real depth to anything he says . Meaby thats why no body ever realy agrees with anything he says .
get freedo away from the mic 😭
i am totally on board with hating freedo but is there like an explicit reason for it ?
@@graf_renner6153 He argues against 6v6 coming back.
@@nycempirestate4689it’s not that he argues against it, but I his arguments against 6v6 are calling people that disagree with him “flat earthers” with no logic argument as to why. It’s pathetic. He claims to have “receipts” and “facts” but nothing, to include all of overwatch history, supports what he’s saying.
get him out of the conversation
Dam he lost weight since the last time insaw him
I instantly get turned off when i see freedo
LMFAO MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY
Yup
Same every freaking time.
I have watched one episode of this podcast that was like for season 9 or 10 i forget but like freedo has already let such a negative perspective for me for this podcast
Sad Samito couldnt be a part of the podcast.
Would love to see what he would bring to the table.
I mean kinda I just wish he didn't yell half the time it kinda drags down the podcast when that happens in my opinion I'm fine with his points I just don't like how often he devolves into a rage induced child screaming about his points and saying they're just flat out fact and if you disagree it means you're dumb
@@sebastianrodriguez8992 i personally rather hear sam raging rather than freedo rambling
@@kuraio3017 Fair enough
@@sebastianrodriguez8992he doesn’t yell on group up and his voice is just load. Grow a pair you skirt
@@sebastianrodriguez8992you gotta be one of the only people who can respect someone else’s opinion wow
Bro you know freedo is just gonna ruin this why does SVB invite him on the tank debate jesus christ.
Where is the mute Freedo option?!? 😒
Overwatch 3 is going to fix the game we are switching to 3v3
I mean
Eliminatation is pretty fun
Try 4v4 maybe
2 DPS + 1 supp
and in overwatch 4 we will go to 10v10
Mauga ult is such a cool ult in concept because locking you and the other guy in a pure 1v1 is so cool, I really like how Iso in valorant literally takes the two of you into a pocket dimension for a fair clean 1v1 but when mauga does it his team can still heal him and shoot inside but your team can't so its just another form of cc by locking you away from your team
Im 99% sure that this is a re-upload of "The Great Tank Debate [2024]" that is up on "Group Up! Podcast" channel
It is, flats waits a while before he uploads the podcast he's on to his channel because he wants to minimise the amount of viewership he'll take from SVB since he's more popular
@@placidflunky6642 why should he take any though? Seems kind of scummy. If youre invited on thebpodcast, you should want the podcast to get the views instead of your own video smh
@@keeganbate8935because him and svb are cool and said he can up load the vid that’s why
@@keeganbate8935 Uploading it later minimizes the hit to the originals views while spreading the existence of the podcast to the rest of his fan base. Seems more beneficial to svb than harmful
@keeganbate8935 so that people that didn't know about it can watch it. I had no clue that he was on a podcast.
Playing tank in high elo open que is insanely fun but that’s the only place where tank is playable.
Agreed, played 200 games one season and got to top 500 there, met a lot of people with the same feeling that just miss the 6v6 gameplay (which is 10x better)
Sadly the queue time is 2hrs soloq 3hrs duo queue at gm3 LOL
Stop including freedo... just stop. I'm starting to feel embarrassed for him... I've never seen somebody so oblivious and wrong, yet remain arrogant and sure he's right.
You do realise you too also contradicted yourself right *_before_* the last sentence?
How could someone be oblivious, wrong, ”arrogant” and right *all* at the *_the same_* time???
You know, that almost sounds exactly like someone who would accuse a guy of being right to being wrong about certain problems WITH *NO* _REGARD_ to the possible solutions to those same problems, not even trying… because it’s pointless..?
Well. Then why don’t we figure that out instead of just saying “it’s pointless” or “it’s not worth the effort” or whatever excuse you or anyone else might give.
@@AdhvaithSane shut up bro
@@AdhvaithSane??? It said *sure* he’s right, not that he *is* right. Huge difference.
You just wrote a paragraph that means absolutely nothing because you read something wrong @AdhvaithSane
Why is Freedo here?
My last match was a King's Row Sigma game, I killed their backline while constantly pushing their Rein back. Guess who was flamed after the cart not moving trought the first corner.
if you want to ease up the counter swapping vs tank, make changing roles available after a point is won or lost. this would limit the counter swapping make choices more stable and make the team more conscious of what the enemy is actualy doing.
I think Freedo isn’t liked here
That first point is huge. Its not even tank, its the culture. Not only all of this "tAnK dIfF" bs, but also the burdens. Tanks are somehoe expected to do everything. No one wants to play around a tank, they want to play their own game but still have their tank doing good. This is a team game, it needs teamwork and cooperation, its not CoD. No one wants to play around the enemy tank either, other than "hog=ana." If their tank is doing good, its because your tank isnt countering them enough. Everything is tanks fault and no one wants to actually play with the tank
No wonder Freedo has played 1100 games as tank. He has the exact opposite experience as the rest of the playerbase.
The core issue of 5v5 is that Tanking only comes from one angle. DPS can come from two angles, support can come from two angles, but tanking can only come from one place. This means tanks who would traditionally like to take an off angle do not have this freedom. You can’t take an off angle because this leaves your team to just get collapsed on. So either you stay with your team or your team comes to you. THIS is what leads to stare-offs down main like on Colosseo. Now that a stare-off down main has been effectively forced for most of the ladder, this is where the rock paper scissors comes in and forces oppressive metas.
If OW Twitter did a poll then 6v6 would beat out 5v5 70% to 30 easily
I’d say 80% to 20%
5v5 balanced the fun of being OT with the stress of being MT. Playing MT in OW1 was genuinely horrible - the worst gaming experience of my life. 6v6 needs to stay dead.
@@theyrenihilists cap
@@theyrenihilistsit did neither of those things. You can not main tank because of the simple fact of pushing forward 99% of the time takes too many team resources (which you have a whole character less of now) And tanks who focus on picks can just easily explode against certain counters.
Yet when you see a tank become meta, yes it is because they can do both roles, but that means you get the unkillable wall Orisa or infinite healing picking Hog. Or everything that is Mauga with a buff.
@@theyrenihilists Says literally no one except you
We're really at the point where we have 3 hour videos of discussing tank, and instead of addressing how the format is the problem, we're discussing new ways to complicate the game which are not going to solve the problem with tank.
It is literally the draw 25 new solutions or go back to 6v6, and currently we're at 46 cards.
If you think 6v6 is gonna solve everything like a golden bullet you literally don’t have a brain.
I mean 6v6 will absolutely still have it's own set of issues and with the state of the game rn and how the devs go about dealing with the meta and character balance I don't trust them to not break 6v6 and somehow cook up something worse than double barrier
@@sebastianrodriguez8992 6v6 would have Issues like Sustain
But it would fix
- Solo Tank Pressure
- Boring Gameplayloop
- Tanks needing reworks to fit in (and even then dont fit i
n)
- Tanks wouldnt need to be Raid Bosses
- You would have more Freedom on what to play because Counterswaps are way less Impactul
Theres probably even more things but just stuff like that would be fixed and if they have to figure out how to make Sustain and Shields not opressive id take that instead
@@heiko2255 True it's mainly just the fact this is entirely based on the idea that blizzard would suddenly gaf about overwatch and try to seriously fix the game and it's issues and not do like 100 bandaid fixes and then we run into a sustain and barrier meta where we'd probably get crap like sigma mauga every game
@@sebastianrodriguez8992 I mean, they are trying to fix 5v5 but its just way harder than 6v6
You will never get rid of Counterswaps without changing how the game works, so they slap bunch of band-aids on that
And i agree they are stupid for doing so, they did that with Dive (Release Brig) or with Goats (release 2-2-2) and while i do think 2-2-2 was a good decision, if they would actually target the issues directly, it would not have been needed
I believe a 2x Shield meta would never happen again, Orisa is reworked and theres bunch of new Shield Piercing heroes (Queen, Ram, Venture, Mauga) and the new Devs might be dumb, but they are atleast fast
A dogshit meta in OW2 lasts a month at best, if it were the OW1 devs we would still be fighting OP Tank Doom from S2
And even if the meta is shit, atleast in 6v6 97% of players can pick what they want and dont need to counterswap or get Solo Blasted on tank
The bottom line is the community IQ has dropped severely once the game went free to play. Solo tank will always feel oppressive if your team does not understand how to support you in the given TEAM matchup. This goes for every role, but once you hit higher ranks no amount of counter swapping on tank will ever matter if your team does not know their role in the counter.
Why are we running from 6v6 when all those new games are running to it
6v6 when?
Probably never tbh
I feel like blizzard is notorious for not going back on some decisions even if it would be better in the long run
When you magically find a way to fix all of the massive, sprawling issues with two tanks that the devs couldn’t after six years of monthly balance patches
@@dashieldmasta177what are those issues? Please enlighten us lmao
@@sebastianrodriguez8992classic wow?
everyones face when freedo starts talking says everything
BRING BACK OCTOBER 2020 6V6 WITH PROPER BALANCE AND INCENTIVES IN GAME
Bring back normal comments
@@Peachmain1 This, exactly this. When will people stop complaining about 6v6, Lootboxes, PvE.
edit: The argument has lost its weight. It’s been almost 2 years since the cancellation, that’s what I’m referring to. For clarification
Who wants to break the news that 6v6 balance was just as bad
@@dadrako1581yes the balance was just as bad no matter the format cuz blizzard sucks dick at balancing. 6v6 was much easier to balance, and this is proven cuz tank in ow1 never got the attention it needed.
@@bluefaygox23 The fact people still talk about 6v6 makes it clear that 5v5 hasnt been the best decision for a majority of people
I dont even know why people say "How do we fix OW2 without going to 6v6" because i think if 6v6 would fix the game less people would be upset all the time about dumb shit like Counterswaps or shooting a unkillable hog or orisa or mauga or ramattra
And please dont come with the 2x Shield argument, this was fixed by reworking Orisa and introducing more Shield penetration heroes like Ram, Queen or Mauga. Not to mention going back to 6v6 would lower HP and Shield HP of all tanks.
As someone who doesnt enjoy the game anymore i dont see why 6v6 should not be an option
Freedo is exceedingly condescending and ruins the vibe of the show. SVB should rethink continuing to invite him onto the show IMO
Talent trees in Overwatch that are tied to the Hero are a really interesting idea to discourage counter swaps spiraling out of control.
Curious how much power they would have to take out of kits to make that not get too crazy
Replace Freedo with anyone else and its perfect
god the bots- 😭
I love Freedo, he just doesn't know when to stop talking. I am sorry man 😢.
All I know is that tank and only the tank experience specifically will be fixed with 6v6.
Ow will still have its problems that we’re facing now and more but for the tank conversation in particular, I think that’s the only solution.
Bot comments are crazy. Gonna have fun watching the video. Thanks for sharing.
"i didn't get a chance to say a hot take" freedo says directly after talking for 15 minutes
I have played 1000+ games on tank this season, Either stomping or getting stomped. Team always blames the tank. Dva not as good as she was and dies easily now, it is not fun. I want to DIVEEEE. I get countered every match. Every match, it's Zarya, Reaper, Mei, brig, mercy or Mauga, cass, bastion, zen
lets try 10v10, 2 tanks, 4 dps, 4 support. Let chaos reign supreme
Please remove freedo
Only way to fix it is 6v6 just make tank 2 roles main tank and off tank separate the shield tanks from the dive tanks aka off tanks and then u can’t fuss about double shield because u can’t que 2 shield tanks
1:17:00 this speaks volumes on the current situation in a weird way, because if this is true, why wouldnt they bring back 6v6 as an arcade mode, why wouldnt they do an april fools event with 6v6, why wont they address it (They could if they wanted to even run an alternative comp season to see player feedback and see if the issues of queue times are still prevalent in OW2)? This would maybe not bring back the hardcore comp players or anything, but I would think it would at the very least allow people to in a way play ow1 again, it would bring players back to play the game casually and make them money with the shop and microtransactions. But they just straight up ignore it, despite it being a MASSIVE discussion regarding the game amongst pro players, content creaters, and casuals/viewers. I unfortunately think that they cant bring it up at all. They already axed PVE and all the promises that they/the old dev team made, bringing back 6v6 would admit that OW2 was a cash shop & graphical update. At this point theyre trying to bend a triangle into a circle, pushing 5v5 to its limits because they cant use the old wheel which was carved into a circle from the start.
Would be nice if there were timestamps
Honesty my take from this is that there is a bunch of pressure on the tank to get the job done. Since its 5v5 instead of 6v6 the whole idea of team synergy is heavily enforced if you want to perform well. I am a dps player since OW 1 as of rn so I can't understand from their pov but I can see the pattern of tanks being under pressure for everything. Without a second tank. Most of the responsibilities of the two tanks are now left to one tank to carry out. Which in design unfun in a competitive setting forcing tanks to multi task and hope their dps to clear out their team for them to push on it and have the heals to enable them to frontline and push
Sam needed to be here for this one. Sadly he wasn't and Freedo was here to give his lukewarm take
Flats mentioning cod juggernauts as soon as ow 2 came out ive thought of tanks as juggernauts lol
Can you SVB have Spilo instead Freedo in the broadcast? Spilo knowledge about the game and the community really bring more to the podcast
Freedo I have no hate against other than his constantly gaslight tactics toward people around him, especially new players, that everyone LIKE playing Counterwatch
the only change id ever make to sigma is to make him move maybe 5-10% faster. not faster cooldowns or rate of fire, just slightly faster walking speed. only thing he doesnt have is a movement ability (ult i guess you can use to reposition some) and i think giving him just a little bit more speed makes him just a hair more survivable. not so much that he becomes dive, just enough to have a chance at getting to cover if you get overwhelmed. just enough that you can keep up with the group when youre moving to the point.
Bruh all of his cooldowns are designed to make him survivable
Bogur has a decent idea and Freedo can’t cope. 😂
The whole game will need a complete rebalance but I think there does lie a problem with the asymmetry of 5v5 with how the characters, maps, and gameplay is designed. I'm an absolute noob, and it'd never happen because it would change the game entirely, but I think there needs to be 2 hybrid roles if they want to stick with 5v5. They need 1 Tank, 1 bruiser, 1 DPS, 1 Support, 1 Healer because when there's only 1 of a specific role, there is no way to fill or supplement aspects of that role when that role is dead.
My wild take is that you keep tanks. Then you make a bruiser class, such as Doomfist, Ball, Roadhog, Junker Queen (you're non-shield less traditional tanks), reduce their health slightly and minorly increase their output (whether cooldowns or slight DPS buff) so that they can help support the main tank, but not let it get as oppressive as 6v6 by making them a hybrid of damage/hp. Then have 1 DPS, 1 support (taking your more damage-dealing supports such as baptiste, moira, illari etc) and balancing them to be more of a hybrid position of healing and damage, and then leave one healer who's purpose is to coordinate with the support to help ensure survivability. So essentially 5v5 with Tank, DPS, Healer and then 2 hybrid roles, 1 to fit inbetween tank and DPS, and another to fit inbetween DPS and healer.
There'd be so much balancing to do, but at least when your tank dies, you're bruiser can hopefully supplement SOME (not all) of the aspects of the tank role until they respawn, so you don't get rolled and same with the other roles. 3 defined roles that are good at one thing, and 2 hybrids that are decent at two things to allow overlap in roles to better allow more team cooperation.
Just call it "off tank" I also had the same idea. Only downside is that multiple heroes would have to be reworked and tank que could be an issue depending on how they implement only being able to pick 1 main tank and 1 off tank.
Also your hybrid idea of DPS+healer doesn't really make sense since some supports already do a lot of damage or slightly less healing than others.
They eating good from this mf vid cause holy shit I got like 40 ads
All the other roles got changes were personal paying can be good and let you win, except for tank. Not many tanks got the ability to affect the game based on solo plays
The thing about tank is, the stronger they are, the more they'll get focused, getting all the cc's, counters etc. Otherwise they''ll just walk freely and kill everyone. And btw, tanks usually doing more damage than the "damage" role? WTF? WHAT GAME IS THIS?
So you think people is just going to play big guys that just walk around taking damage? Their damage is compensated by their mobility.
I mean tanks do more damage over the course of the game just because they are more active in terms of dealing damage and or the ability to damage multiple targets (your winton and reins)
pretty sure every dps characters has more overall dps than every tank at base with a few exceptions (dva using missiles which is a cooldown or high charge zarya, and if shes high charge she is fragile and immobile)
there is absolutely nothing wrong with tanks ending up with more overall damage at the end of the game
cant figure if you're being sarcastic or not, but tanks usually will get the most ressources from their supports and just being in the front will mean more damage dealt. just incase you are actually serious for some reason
Well yea… if the tanks did low damage how would they take space? How would they make u respect their own space as well? Tank as a role needs to do damage. Simple as that.
I mean true but their damage is less impactful because of them not possessing the dps passive so their damage can honestly get out healed most of the time without DPS support
Also for everyone hating on Freedo, at least he isnt as bad as fucking Stylosa is now. Dude is unbearable.
honestly playing tank now doesnt even feel like its tank rock paper scissors anymore. its TEAM rock paper scissors. Ill be on doom or winston with a genji and an ash with mercy ana and the enemy team will insta swap to hog, ana, brig, cassidy and sombra, and even if i swap off to a tank that counters any of their characters, if none of my other teammates make the commitment to counter them with me, it literally does NOTHING.
Tank will always feel awful cuz they don't wanna nerf stuff.
This mentality of making sure everyone feels good about changes actively harms the game. They dont wanna risk the week where kiriko players and hitscan players moan and groan.
I played a game yesterday where our team had Sojourn and Ashe, the enemy tank couldn't play the game. Even Mauga with cardiac up just melted like butter. And the damage problem is specifically a hitscan problem. They two/3 tap the entire cast and have the fire rate of smgs in other games.
And then you add dps supports who either open up the tank even more or pump around the same damage as hitscan. They didnt fix tank by adding a headshot modifier debuff because they still do insane amounts of damage is such little time.
Nerfing stuff still won't fix the counter swapping issue.
where does this idea come from that tank is miserable in every game?
From what I understand the people at the high end of the ladder, idk about pros bc I don’t care about that
@@asonofliberty3662 I mean like in other games like wow, league or FF14. I play FF14 and playing tank is amazing in that game.
Yeah tank in final feels great I think he wad maybe talking about league but I dont play league so I dunno@@xRichieeex
@@kameroni283 Generally speaking in other moba games, tanks are often overlooked for the dps carries instead even though tanks maybe the one who made the setup happened and possibly died for it. But that's fine since the team shares the glory and people don't overlook the setups too.
As for MMOs im not sure. WoW it might be awful, but I don't hear people complain about it in FF
I feel like that thought comes from WoW tbh maybe blizzard just doesn’t know how to make tank roles 😂
Honestly, I don't get the hate on Freedo here, he is playing the devils advocate because it should be voiced. He DOES make some good points about not everyone being able to be happy, and people needing to adjust. That said, I do agree with Flats the most here. This is a great debate
31:54 Bogur forgot the occasional: “Not enough shield (mitigated dmg) as it’s already at 20,000. Point being, if you even correlate with tank, smth can be complained abt i swear
ADD DPS PASSIVE TO TANK BUT ONLY FOR EITHER SUPPORT CHAR OR DPS
Everybody on this call is getting sick of freedo 😂😂😂
Bring back 6v6 nerf the support kiriko,brig, and bap and pum overwacht would be a great game
Tank is my best role by far but I enjoy playing DPS so much more
Sometimes on DPS you won't notice if your teammates aren't doing well, it's so much more noticeable on tank and support
If you lose a game as DPS most likely it's because you could have played better. With tank it almost feels like a diceroll.
Can’t wait for another season of throwing till we r 6v6
Oh just wait until this winter when we get the next tank it's going to be another mauga hilarious.
I wish junker queen ult was aimable. Like pick an end point on the ground and thats how far she goes.
Freedo's little complaint about being "thrown under the bus" to defend the devs was super awkward. You reap what you sow, dude.
Hot take: split the dps into two different categories dps and flank. It’s very apartment that you need at least one dps and one flank so why not just put that into roll queue. Players that want to play flank hero’s and players who want to play dps can do so. It’s simple but it would be effective.
i mean ppl already know how to do that in pro it’s called a flex dps those are your flankers you don’t need a whole other role to split up the player base even more
Honestly you can still win a lot of the bad tank matchups if you play properly though itll definitely be harder and less fun. But the second you dont switch the tilt it inflicts on the rest of your team is just brutal. You have to play harder and your team is now not concentrating because there pissed at you
I actually got a headache when they started talking about mauga😭
I believe the main diference between 5v5 and 6v6 is very simple. The game use to be a moba turned into an fps and it was beatifull.
The whole team waited at the choke before going in, there was coordination, there was a need to comunicate, abilities functioned well, but excelled if they were used together (there are exceptions of course brig, bap wait thats funny supports were the problem WOW).
It was a team game and now is just a shooter, and not the greatest.
I can't understand why people deffend this or say its the same game. IT'S NOT.
If u prefer it that's fine, but assume that this is not what we were selled in 2016
Your teams waited at the choke? I remember my team's staggering their deaths, blowing their ults, and waiting until the last possible moment to accidentally regroup lol
@@i.r.weasel7042 I understand it could be frustrating, but the skill floor on tanks wasn’t swapping every 30 seconds, 6v6 haded skill expression and added depth to the gameplay, and yes that I miss
@@fkatar9757 I'm withcha, I'm done with OW2, uninstalled weeks ago (played since OW1 beta), just thought it was funny you said your teams grouped up, because staggering and trickling was rampant and still is today.
@@i.r.weasel7042 same i played since beta aswell and the only yhing i can stand is open queue. I main rein, In role lock i played one season were i counter picked and played the game as blizzard obligates me to do and i got masters, next season as an experiment i played rein only and got stuck at plat 1. I use to play rein whenever i wanted in ow1, sometimes if well execute against 2 shield, the game really sucks
BALLMAIN here. I can't even play ball into sombra cassidy hog anymore. 3000 hours ball OW1/2. Sigma otherwise.(plat4 ow2) diamond (fringe masters) ow1
Literally! I mainly play support and i had a ball main in my game who deadass thought we were gonna flame him for picking ball. I told him we were gonna run i dive support comp to help him out more and follow up on his combos/cc. Dude was doing amazing the first round (we were on defense on that one lucio map. Sorry i don't know map names). Even tho they had an ana/hog he was still doing pretty good. I pocketed him on lucio getting him in and out of fights. Then we go to second round on attacking. He still played well but our dps wouldn't help follow up on kills or help push onto point at all. Then in comes the counter picking.....the enemy team went hog, brig, mei, and sombra then just huddled together the rest of the game. Our tank was forced to swap. Then our dps who were 20-11 and 17-11 said it was a tank diff. Just completely ignoring the value our tank got out of playing ball. He had 24 kills and only 6-7 deaths. He also had top dmg at 14k. Me and the moira had 20 kills each with 9k and 12k healing respectfully. Recently i am seeing far more underperforming dps than tanks, which makes no sense to me due to the dps passive being oppressive to tanks and extremely beneficial to dps. Players easily can melt and be melted. I really wish they just nuked dmg and healing numbers......
@@BonkVibin I'm tired of this (CC) grandpa
@@xavierharris4036 Blizzard- "WELL THATS TOO DAMN BAD!"
Thought y'all meant ingame bots, but I'm here early and then I scrolled down LMAO
the only way to play tank is to either play counter watch or play mirror tank
Dang it I usually can't stand Bogur but he's cooking this time
6v6
As a tank main, I prefer to play DPS. I can still win games as tank. It's just not fun
Overwatch RUclips boxing when?
Jay3 or Sam would probably win tbh
Bring back 2 cp. Hard chokes arent that bad, the fun part is figuring out how to get through
01:48:00
Holy fuck the discourse around this is so toxic. Can't we just have differing opinions and be nice to each other.
i don’t follow freedows content but i don’t disagree with most his points, i don’t think he delivers his points as well as the other guests but i think a lot of the people disagreeing is cope or just not tryna see others perspectives.
I don't know freedo, but an hour in I hate him
Idea for Mauga rework:
Instead of cage fight being his ult make it his E. Make it so the cage fight is an actual 1v1 where he can only cage one enemy (you lock onto one target and pushes everyone else out), and neither his team nor the enemies team can hurt or heal whoever's inside, nor go in. Much smaller cage and no ability lockout, just keeps both people inside. Cage drops immediately after the 1v1, and whoever wins the 1v1 gets a personal version of his current E, of healing themselves when they do damage. If cage gets destroyed before someone wins the 1v1, no one gets the healing effect. Less time up than current ult, less shield health, and long cooldown.
New ult: A supercharged version of his normal charge. More damage than his normal charge (maybe double), and when he charges he's visibly on fire, and sets fire to enemies he runs through, which sets him up to shoot them for critical damage. He can use ult right after doing a normal charge, but only his ult charge is immune to CC (him being on fire effect + ult voiceline would indicate clearly it's not a CC-able charge). Has a short one second wind-up of him flexing his muscles which sets himself on fire, and he says his new ult voiceline, "I'M ON FIRE." His ult can be cancelled during the wind up but once started he can't be CC'd.
I think this could make him less of a numbers character and more of a tactical hero where he has to decide correctly when to try to 1v1, also adds a lot more counterplay to all of his abilities.
I mean no disrespect, but Dante is pretty lucky he's professional-level good at the game. Cause as far as balance ideas he brings to the table he's just slingin' coal.
I am down to have hero lock between points or on time stamp like u cannot swap so fast it should not be a thing this ez sadly.
I would love a dps or support debate
I believe they had a DPS debate uploaded yesterday on the Group Up channel
@Arcticos0 you were correct. Thank you 💪
Bruh the hero ban conversation is such a snoozfest at this point. I just roll my eyes now.
Honestly I think the reason why they’re hesitant to bring back 6v6 is because they understandably hear a lot of shit about ow 2 not having PVE. Maybe they think bringing it back would officially just make ow2 a shittier overwatch? They are very different games now tho so I’m not sure why/if they’d feel that way.
Can we stop having Freedo the great shill on these debates, he is on par with Custa
Freedo’s opinion=💩
Hilarious that the Overwatch 2 guy saying that Marvel Rivals is very flawed when Overwatch is in such a horrific state.
i mean cant 2 things be true at once
I mean even so, Marvel Rivals being in a flawed state is pretty expected since it's still in beta.
OW2 devs have had like 8 years of experience and either they or their bosses are making all these terrible decisions. That's why OW2 being in a horrific state is so much worse.
@@VVheeli Absolutely true