Ring gap is one of the most ignored things on the internet. I know several people that watched a little RUclips and slapped a bunch of boost to their cars without gapping the rings only to have then blow up. It's a simple thing. Thank you for your time.
@@MrBIG4D I never had a Speed Pro, Muskegon or Hastings ring kit that was wrong or too small gapped, I always check any ring but...more likely people bought a wrong sized kit or mixed up something or damaged the ring during installation.
Fascinating video and explanation. Proper ring gap is something that’s usually well-explained in most of the engine build videos I watch. It was interesting to see what can happen if ring gap is overlooked and ends up wrong. But that thrust bearing wear caused by incorrect automatic transmission setup is next level. I never even realized that could occur. Very interesting stuff. It’s a shame such a high end build met an end like this.
Your explanation of the thrust issue was exactly what I needed to hear. My local speed shop couldn’t tell me what happened to my crank and it looked just like that- I now have a video to show him. Thank you. At least I know I didn’t assemble engine wrong like he was saying and I will talk with my transmission guy this coming weekend, great help.
From Wiseco: For a street engine, multiplying your bore size by 0.004in will give you the top ring gap you are looking for. 004 x 4.00in bore = 0.016 inch ring gap For high performance engines, the multiplier changes to add more clearance, but the math stays the same: Modified or Nitrous Oxide - 0.005in x 4.00in bore = 0.020 inch ring gap High Performance Racing - .0055in x 4.00in bore = 0.022 inch ring gap Racing with Nitrous/Turbo - 0.006in x 4.00in bore = 0.024 inch ring gap Racing Blower/Supercharger - 0.007 x 4.00in bore = 0.028 inch ring gap For the second ring, the process is the same, but with a slightly different gap, based on application: Street - 0.005in x bore size Modified or Nitrous Oxide - 0.0055in x bore size High Performance Racing - 0.0053in x bore size Racing with Nitrous/Turbo - 0.0057in x bore size Racing Blower/Supercharger - 0.0063in x bore size
The solution is to buy a remanufactured short block.. Pay a little extra for the warranty. People are living in the past. Pistons are not round and low tension rings are different than the old chrome moly style from 400 years ago..
As usual, great information and no drama. You are my kinda guy. I have watched half a dozen of your videos by now and really like them. Now I need to go back and watch them all from number one.
This is the third video from you I have watched and I like the way you present your'e video's with good information about machine work. I wanted to go back to trade school and learn more about machine work (my uncle next door to my parents house has a complete machine shop) body and paint, and modifying internal combustion engines into the most powerful but still reliable I can with readily available parts from online. Then this damned Covid-19 hit, closing down the trade school I wanted to go to and caused the bus conversion high end motorhome company I worked for (Country Coach) to shut it's door's forever, then my Uncle passed away! The only good thing that happened was the state I live in has raised minimum wage for people with verifiable experience in certain job's can start as high as $17.50 per hour that I qualify for and I will be able to slowly finish work on my car! 👍 and subscribed!
Another excellent vid ,,, ya , I had the same prob with a 600hp rw LS in a off road truck , The guy went through 3 transmissions and each time I had to replace the thrust bearing. Even after I made it a pressure fed thrust. It was the converter , just like you said . He bought a race trans from Monster trans and made it through King of the Hammers with no problem. Thrust looks mint now on a service tear down .
I've seen torque converts on stock vehicles fail internally and actually swell under load, shoving the converter into the crank and wiping out the thrust bearing just like this. LS series seem to be the worsts about this problem. All good information.
Funny how so often it is much easier to explain what to do by explaining what not to do. This series has lots of good examples with the physical proof, very convincing!
PMI, you should see the thrust bearing system Steve Morris runs in his race car. It’s impressive. It’s set up so the Babbitt thrust bearing of the crank barely ever rubs anything.
Was told many years ago to file a slight notch from the oil groove in the brg to the back thrust face at the parting line of the brg to provide more lube on a stick car. I have been doing the same trick on t-brake engines. Seems to work pretty well
That just seems weird to me. If you're going to send everything off to a machine shop to get all that work done and the clearances checked... why not just get them to also assemble the short block...?
ive done it both ways, ive put my own engines together and ive also had the short blocks assembled. honestly the only real reason for building my own was i wanted the experience of doing it.. and part of it was learning how to check the clearances and adjust as necessary.. i wanted the know-how, but really every engine shop I went to it wasnt that much money extra in the overall cost of a car build to have the short block assembled. in fasct in many cases, if i had the heads worked too, id have the shop install the heads as well... a lot of the true BUILDING of an engine is in the design..choosing what you are going to put in it. a good shop will set you on the right track with that.. there are a lot of "built" engines that people just ordered "cool stuff" from the performance parts sotres and stuffed in there... the same goes for transmissions as well.. stuffing transgo kits in and turning up line pressure because it "supposed to be good to run up the pressure".. not even thinking about the laws of physics in the process.. people also sit on their trans-brakes way to long.. at least amateurs often do.. I see them run up aginst the trnasbrake hard for way to long at the tree.. the only time its even the least bit beneficial is if you are running a turbo.. but naturally aspirated.. get on it at the last second before the tree goes and thats it..
a good portion of my engine building schooling/knowledge came from people like Junior Johnson, Smokey Yunick, and/or their proteges; So i tend to err on the side of extra ring gap rather than too little. They typically gapped sbc's around .020-.025 on top ring, opening up a bit more on 2nd and oil ring; sure they might smoke a bit/burn a little oil, but there's practically zero chance of locking up or breaking a ring when turning 9k all the time...
A motor reasonably putting out 480 or so horsepower, was probably putting out close to 500 ft lb of torque as well and they had a 4L 60 behind it. I'd like to know how the transmission lasted any length of time. That is not a transmission that will survive behind that type of engine for very long. That should have had at least a 4 L 80. And if it's in a truck it should be an Allison Transmission.
I had no idea how serious Powell Machine is about making high quality - long living - high horsepower setups work right. This kind of knowledge takes many years of hands-on, rubber-meets-the-road experience. These videos are just showing their costumers how much they want the same thing the engine owners want. The best for the buck. That Starrett granite surface plate costs 4 times as much as anyone else's. NASA uses Starrett stuff.
L, s, s, sure did. Great video . Looking forward to checking your channel out great stuff to know. Thank you. From ur ole hillbilly buddy . Stay safe. Let the top stay rockin, Keep them rods from knocking.
@@powellmachineinc yes, the video was awesome, thank u. You got anything on Suzuki 1.3 Sammy motors. Need little more power not wanting dump thousands in it. Good running stock motor with Toyota 3k carb.
I remember a guy from school who built a old school 355. He never checked the ring end gap and after getting 4 or 5 pistons installed, he couldn't turn the crankshaft. They had a pipe wrench on the snout trying to spin it. Joe
Ring gap is one of the most important thing with anything that has a piston and ring, I have built a few Atv motors, 2stroke and 4stroke, and I always clearance the ring or at least double check they are in speck. I know I have seen a few times where people just toss it in and never check gap and it never ends well…
What probably saved it from locking the pistons in the bores is the open architecture of the block - that open deck is pretty forgiving. The whole thing goes back to check twice, build once. When I was in, I used to hate the build it themselves guys, i'd tell 'em time and again, Check TF out of everything, but you just can't think for 'em. Seen a lot of good parts die.
I did not know thrust bearings could be wiped out by a performance built automatic. I would often read about thrust bearings not lasting in manual transmissions with high pressure clutches. It would get worse in cars that could not be put in neutral and started with the clutch engaged.
It's not the "performance built" aspect, it's higher stall and setting on the converter with to much fluid, a restricted converter flow helps this issue tremendously
Probably should have them check the line pressure when on the brake, too. The two steps and the brakes are skyrocketing the pressures. There can be 300-400 pounds of force (or more!) forward on that thrust and it's not pressure oiled.
With the higher rpm and Hp it made it could be a Ballooned torque converter If there is no Ballooning plates on the torque converter, or it could be a high pressure issue that push's the converter into the flex plate/Thrust bearing.
Not a ballooning issue. Circle D billet 3400 stall with anti ballon plate. There is a tcc limit feed valve from sonnax that limits converter charge to 100psi. We are going to a 4l79 drum with billet input and output as well.
My understanding (I am not even close to an expert) when I bought my gear star trans, years ago, ballooning was basically a nitrous and somewhat, turbo issue
Hone & ring it. Grind the thrust even though the grinder will bitch about using the side of the wheel!! Cu off the main's thrust and hold it and a shim onto the cap with 2 countersunk locktite screws. Ring gap, much much worse then the gaped from the factory spark plugs!
Could be the converter. They balloon up. I do transmissions as well as motors. Don't cheap out on converter. Even my mild street transmission builds have dual anti ballooning plates, also stay with the lower vane pumps in all our race transmissions
small ome man shop i have had Had oil pressure and ring gap issues from people who don't understand proper gaps and automatic trans torque converter issues
Know your limitations . An old boss of mine would tell us , a big problem even among engineers is the inability to say I don't know , so if in doubt , get advice or services from the experts . Saves a whole lot of pulled hair , swear jar donations , wasted time and wasted money . And there's the flip side too . Like googling your symptoms for a diagnosis . Just because you think you've got it now, doesn't mean you do .
If the pilot bore back of crank fit is restricting forward motion, or too thick of flex plate bolt heads are employed restricting travel, thrust wear will happen. Then there's the problem of squaring the thrust main caps to the block, dead blow that crank fore and aft dowels or not. Many, many years in the racing transmission/torque converter business, and I build a few engines for entertainment.
After seeing this thrust issue on an LS I was wondering what a manual trans can do to thrust on an LS, and what precautions one would take to lessen the blow on the crank?
Nobody [else] will know when your ring gap is too BIG, but everyone will know when it's too SMALL. The last 6.0 I assembled for a 600whp goal was 0.023 & 0.024". I've seen sludge puppies boosted right out of the junkyard survive 700whp with 0.012-0.018". Even my 3"-bore Honda was set to 0.018", 15yrs old and it only eats boost not oil.
Okay, that was an eye-opener! I know your specialty is engines, but exactly what do they do to an AT to reduce the fluid pressure to the converter?! I've always been a MT guy, but about to dive into the TH400 world! Great vide!
@@powellmachineinc That's not always the answer, or a problem. Might want to follow the oil route in AND out. Then there's the oil routing inside the torque converter, complete with internal blockages by less than knowlegable assemblers. You can't make a blanket statement on cause and effect, too many variables.
Overheating the trans will do the same thing. The converter is the first thing to get hot and creates 90% of the heat generated in automatic transmissions. Remember that guy you saw pulling the giant RV with a 1/2 Chevy truck? Says "it's okay, I have a load leveling hitch and air bags!" Yup, that's the guy who come into the trans shop with a red-hot converter, the trans puking fluid out the vent tube, and fluid that smells like burnt chicken cooked in rotten eggs! These are the guys who's converters swell and take out the crank. I've seen them so bad that the ECM looses signal from the crank sensor because the crank has moved so far forward. Your first clue is the belt squealing like mad when they go to take off from a stop light!
I should send my 5.3 and rotating assembly to you and have you assemble it for me, building a 383 forged rotating assembly that needs balanced, plan on 15 to 20 lbs of boost
Send what you have said to a piston ring manufacturer. On 2nd thoughts they will probably not answer you, the same as Daniel has not replied. How about you go and study a bit from a piston, ring and/or engine manufacturer(s) before you make a comment. Retired mechanic/machinist who for a while worked at an engine reconditioning shop many years ago.
@bobhudson6659 shit man, I didn't know I needed to be so qualified to comment. I build, rebuild, assemble engines. only a few each year, and am by no means the king of my trade. I just wondered about the oil choice, the wear pattern just looked so uniform.
What are the possible fixes for the 2-step or Trans Brake to avoid this, what can he do to the transmission to continue using them but not have this happen again?
With everything they had you do, why didn’t they just have you build out the long block? People make so really dumb choices. Your shop clearly does really nice work.
The scuffed bores are definitely caused by the assembler not taking the time to properly gap the pistons... $ For another set of pistons over-sized oistons and another 8 bores & hones to match the new oversized pistons & rings... .. The ruined crank thrust bearing surface, was a result of using a non- standard (racing) torque converter... More $ the client has to spend for a new crankshaft and bearing kit... Apparently the client must make big MONEY, doing the racing in this vehicle, otherwise they could not afford to come back for more machine work , and parts, and down time...
I am building a 4g63 over here in the other end of the world. I put ARP main studs instead of the OEM bolts. Now my 4th cilinder main clearance is 0,00039" smaller then the other ones. I can't find any shops that hone the mains in my country. Do you think this would be okay to run? Its for an evo 8 going to make around 700hp.
@@powellmachineinc Thank you for your answer. I meant the last main is 0.00039" smaller then the other mains. And my question was if that's okay without honing? If i maybe use an extra clearance bearing?
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 converter has an anti ballon plate and billet cover. The converter is physical moving into the crank. Spacing was set on initial install. Non of it was an issue until I started launching the truck on 2 step.
@@GeorgeFarahGNR yeah, I'm just trying to understand the effect of overfeeding. I guess inlet pressure to torque converter pushes converter towards block. The part I don't understand in my head is the cross section might be a few square inches? At 90psi, that's 270lb thrust. Anyway, 1st I've heard of overfeeding but I learn new things everyday and then try to understand the details.
HOW can a guy spend that much money on a nice motor and not know how to end gap rings??? He/you or somebody needs to really check the ring lands because as you know that much friction was acting on the ring lands as well as the cylinder walls. THAT is a mess!!
Evidently, he should not attempt to assemble an engine. There's always enough money to do the job twice. This is unfortunate and avoidable. I feel bad for the customer.
Ring gap is one of the most ignored things on the internet. I know several people that watched a little RUclips and slapped a bunch of boost to their cars without gapping the rings only to have then blow up. It's a simple thing. Thank you for your time.
Very welcome
I love it when they say, "Oh, I bought the kit that has pre-gapped rings.".......okay, then put it together with that 1/2 impact! It's faster!
@@MrBIG4D I never had a Speed Pro, Muskegon or Hastings ring kit that was wrong or too small gapped, I always check any ring but...more likely people bought a wrong sized kit or mixed up something or damaged the ring during installation.
you mean you cant just take stuff out the box and install it?
Building an engine when you don't know what you don't know is going to get ya. Great video, as usual.
You got that right!
Everyone starts learning somewhere. Some people just started late with a fat wallet and expensive parts.
Fascinating video and explanation. Proper ring gap is something that’s usually well-explained in most of the engine build videos I watch. It was interesting to see what can happen if ring gap is overlooked and ends up wrong. But that thrust bearing wear caused by incorrect automatic transmission setup is next level. I never even realized that could occur. Very interesting stuff. It’s a shame such a high end build met an end like this.
Glad you enjoyed it!
See the thrust wiped out on turbo cars all the time as well. Nice video, thanks.
Learned from this one, didn't know about the torque converter/ thrust issue.
Thx brother
Your explanation of the thrust issue was exactly what I needed to hear. My local speed shop couldn’t tell me what happened to my crank and it looked just like that- I now have a video to show him. Thank you. At least I know I didn’t assemble engine wrong like he was saying and I will talk with my transmission guy this coming weekend, great help.
Glad it helped
From Wiseco:
For a street engine, multiplying your bore size by 0.004in will give you the top ring gap you are looking for.
004 x 4.00in bore = 0.016 inch ring gap
For high performance engines, the multiplier changes to add more clearance, but the math stays the same:
Modified or Nitrous Oxide - 0.005in x 4.00in bore = 0.020 inch ring gap
High Performance Racing - .0055in x 4.00in bore = 0.022 inch ring gap
Racing with Nitrous/Turbo - 0.006in x 4.00in bore = 0.024 inch ring gap
Racing Blower/Supercharger - 0.007 x 4.00in bore = 0.028 inch ring gap
For the second ring, the process is the same, but with a slightly different gap, based on application:
Street - 0.005in x bore size
Modified or Nitrous Oxide - 0.0055in x bore size
High Performance Racing - 0.0053in x bore size
Racing with Nitrous/Turbo - 0.0057in x bore size
Racing Blower/Supercharger - 0.0063in x bore size
The solution is to buy a remanufactured short block.. Pay a little extra for the warranty. People are living in the past. Pistons are not round and low tension rings are different than the old chrome moly style from 400 years ago..
As usual, great information and no drama. You are my kinda guy. I have watched half a dozen of your videos by now and really like them. Now I need to go back and watch them all from number one.
Tyvm
This is the third video from you I have watched and I like the way you present your'e video's with good information about machine work. I wanted to go back to trade school and learn more about machine work (my uncle next door to my parents house has a complete machine shop) body and paint, and modifying internal combustion engines into the most powerful but still reliable I can with readily available parts from online. Then this damned Covid-19 hit, closing down the trade school I wanted to go to and caused the bus conversion high end motorhome company I worked for (Country Coach) to shut it's door's forever, then my Uncle passed away! The only good thing that happened was the state I live in has raised minimum wage for people with verifiable experience in certain job's can start as high as $17.50 per hour that I qualify for and I will be able to slowly finish work on my car! 👍 and subscribed!
The best engineering channel on RUclips !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Like you said, "got to check all the boxes", but first have know what all boxes to check! Thanks!
You bet!
I always learn so much from your videos. Thank You very much.
Thank you!! Glad it helps
Another excellent vid ,,, ya , I had the same prob with a 600hp rw LS in a off road truck ,
The guy went through 3 transmissions and each time I had to replace the thrust bearing. Even after I made it a pressure fed thrust.
It was the converter , just like you said .
He bought a race trans from Monster trans and made it through King of the Hammers with no problem. Thrust looks mint now on a service tear down .
💯
@@powellmachineincso race type converters have less fluid and push less transient load onto the thrust bearing?
I've seen torque converts on stock vehicles fail internally and actually swell under load, shoving the converter into the crank and wiping out the thrust bearing just like this. LS series seem to be the worsts about this problem. All good information.
Great point!
Great information as usual lve picked up some really very valuable information watching your videos, it's much appreciated kind regards Roy
My pleasure!
I like the posts that you do where some one has brought you a motor that is messed up and you take it apart and show what was done wrong...
Funny how so often it is much easier to explain what to do by explaining what not to do. This series has lots of good examples with the physical proof, very convincing!
Hello, once again thank you for your knowledge. I know it but a lot of new Jack's or rookies will learn. Great job once again
PMI, you should see the thrust bearing system Steve Morris runs in his race car. It’s impressive. It’s set up so the Babbitt thrust bearing of the crank barely ever rubs anything.
Was told many years ago to file a slight notch from the oil groove in the brg to the back thrust face at the parting line of the brg to provide more lube on a stick car. I have been doing the same trick on t-brake engines. Seems to work pretty well
We actually Machine the bearing to allow pressurized oil to feed the thrust face an trans brake applications.
Excellent content
Much appreciated
Hi Daniel, thanks for the info!! very good video!!👍👍👍👍
My pleasure!
awesome vid...always heardtell of this...never actually seen the result..
Ty!
Great info,thanks for sharing your knowledge…
Absolutely, ty for watching!
That just seems weird to me. If you're going to send everything off to a machine shop to get all that work done and the clearances checked... why not just get them to also assemble the short block...?
The internet said "building engines" was easy
@@powellmachineinc Ya, I guess. So easy that apparently people don't mind doing it multiple times...
ive done it both ways, ive put my own engines together and ive also had the short blocks assembled. honestly the only real reason for building my own was i wanted the experience of doing it.. and part of it was learning how to check the clearances and adjust as necessary.. i wanted the know-how, but really every engine shop I went to it wasnt that much money extra in the overall cost of a car build to have the short block assembled. in fasct in many cases, if i had the heads worked too, id have the shop install the heads as well... a lot of the true BUILDING of an engine is in the design..choosing what you are going to put in it. a good shop will set you on the right track with that.. there are a lot of "built" engines that people just ordered "cool stuff" from the performance parts sotres and stuffed in there... the same goes for transmissions as well.. stuffing transgo kits in and turning up line pressure because it "supposed to be good to run up the pressure".. not even thinking about the laws of physics in the process.. people also sit on their trans-brakes way to long.. at least amateurs often do.. I see them run up aginst the trnasbrake hard for way to long at the tree.. the only time its even the least bit beneficial is if you are running a turbo.. but naturally aspirated.. get on it at the last second before the tree goes and thats it..
Many people like building their own engine, but yea ring gaps are critical.
Very good information. We all need to be reminded of the basics from time to time.
a good portion of my engine building schooling/knowledge came from people like Junior Johnson, Smokey Yunick, and/or their proteges; So i tend to err on the side of extra ring gap rather than too little. They typically gapped sbc's around .020-.025 on top ring, opening up a bit more on 2nd and oil ring; sure they might smoke a bit/burn a little oil, but there's practically zero chance of locking up or breaking a ring when turning 9k all the time...
Ring gap doesn't make engines smoke or use oil, that comes from cylinder dimension issues and cross hatch profiles incorrect
I never heard of the converter pushing into the flexplate like that before but it makes perfect sense that it could be a huge issue.
It's a well known issue in the performance world
A motor reasonably putting out 480 or so horsepower, was probably putting out close to 500 ft lb of torque as well and they had a 4L 60 behind it. I'd like to know how the transmission lasted any length of time. That is not a transmission that will survive behind that type of engine for very long. That should have had at least a 4 L 80. And if it's in a truck it should be an Allison Transmission.
I had no idea how serious Powell Machine is about making high quality - long living - high horsepower setups work right. This kind of knowledge takes many years of hands-on, rubber-meets-the-road experience. These videos are just showing their costumers how much they want the same thing the engine owners want. The best for the buck. That Starrett granite surface plate costs 4 times as much as anyone else's. NASA uses Starrett stuff.
Yes,
and having things like cranks standing on that precision granite plate ain’t good.
Of course, it ain’t rocket stuff but 🤪
All I know @Powell machine is building my next LS2 engine.
Awesome
L, s, s, sure did. Great video . Looking forward to checking your channel out great stuff to know. Thank you. From ur ole hillbilly buddy . Stay safe.
Let the top stay rockin,
Keep them rods from knocking.
Awesome! Thank you!
@@powellmachineinc yes, the video was awesome, thank u.
You got anything on Suzuki 1.3 Sammy motors. Need little more power not wanting dump thousands in it. Good running stock motor with Toyota 3k carb.
I remember a guy from school who built a old school 355. He never checked the ring end gap and after getting 4 or 5 pistons installed, he couldn't turn the crankshaft. They had a pipe wrench on the snout trying to spin it.
Joe
Yep, I can imagine
I watched one guy shear the rings in half beating on the top of the piston. Thought that rings were a drop in.
Great video, keep them coming!!!
We live and we learn! It’ll be better round 2
Absolutely
Your videos are always good
Glad you like them!
Another fantastic one! 👍
Ring gap is one of the most important thing with anything that has a piston and ring, I have built a few Atv motors, 2stroke and 4stroke, and I always clearance the ring or at least double check they are in speck. I know I have seen a few times where people just toss it in and never check gap and it never ends well…
What probably saved it from locking the pistons in the bores is the open architecture of the block - that open deck is pretty forgiving.
The whole thing goes back to check twice, build once. When I was in, I used to hate the build it themselves guys, i'd tell 'em time and again, Check TF out of everything, but you just can't think for 'em.
Seen a lot of good parts die.
I did not know thrust bearings could be wiped out by a performance built automatic. I would often read about thrust bearings not lasting in manual transmissions with high pressure clutches. It would get worse in cars that could not be put in neutral and started with the clutch engaged.
It's not the "performance built" aspect, it's higher stall and setting on the converter with to much fluid, a restricted converter flow helps this issue tremendously
@@powellmachineinc I see, it sounds like a bad combination of parts, too.
Ouch! Man that’s gotta hurt his pocketbook. The thing is that the ring gap only takes a cheap feeler gage to verify it.
Definitely
dang good info
You're welcome
Actually very lucky it can be salvaged
💯
Probably should have them check the line pressure when on the brake, too. The two steps and the brakes are skyrocketing the pressures. There can be 300-400 pounds of force (or more!) forward on that thrust and it's not pressure oiled.
Definitely
Amazing channel.
60 years ago in tech school we were taught for a stock engine 3 tho for every inch of bore.
With the higher rpm and Hp it made it could be a Ballooned torque converter If there is no Ballooning plates on the torque converter, or it could be a high pressure issue that push's the converter into the flex plate/Thrust bearing.
Correct, but supposedly it had a "good" converter
Not a ballooning issue. Circle D billet 3400 stall with anti ballon plate. There is a tcc limit feed valve from sonnax that limits converter charge to 100psi.
We are going to a 4l79 drum with billet input and output as well.
@@GeorgeFarahGNR4l79 drum post to be good, I'm running the sonnax drum in mine.
My understanding (I am not even close to an expert) when I bought my gear star trans, years ago, ballooning was basically a nitrous and somewhat, turbo issue
Hone & ring it. Grind the thrust even though the grinder will bitch about using the side of the wheel!! Cu off the main's thrust and hold it and a shim onto the cap with 2 countersunk locktite screws. Ring gap, much much worse then the gaped from the factory spark plugs!
Could be the converter. They balloon up. I do transmissions as well as motors. Don't cheap out on converter. Even my mild street transmission builds have dual anti ballooning plates, also stay with the lower vane pumps in all our race transmissions
Converter had a balloon plate, excess fluid to the converter is a well known issue, we started restricting the fluid in our glides 10 years ago.
@@powellmachineinc you have to do it in glides and 400 depending on pump but 4l60 with stock pumps usually don't do it
small ome man shop i have had Had oil pressure and ring gap issues from people who don't understand proper gaps and automatic trans torque converter issues
Yep
Engine overhaul manuals are very helpful. 😅
Very!
Yup
I had no idea so many people don’t know the rings have to be gapped. That seems to me like Engine Rebuilding 101.
do you have the video of the converter being pushed into the flywheel from your customers car? id love to see that.
Great information!!
Thanks for watching!
Dealing with the general public is costly.
For them it is
Know your limitations . An old boss of mine would tell us , a big problem even among engineers is the inability to say I don't know , so if in doubt , get advice or services from the experts .
Saves a whole lot of pulled hair , swear jar donations , wasted time and wasted money .
And there's the flip side too . Like googling your symptoms for a diagnosis . Just because you think you've got it now, doesn't mean you do .
💯
If the pilot bore back of crank fit is restricting forward motion, or too thick of flex plate bolt heads are employed restricting travel, thrust wear will happen. Then there's the problem of squaring the thrust main caps to the block, dead blow that crank fore and aft dowels or not. Many, many years in the racing transmission/torque converter business, and I build a few engines for entertainment.
www.youtube.com/@autotransdesign
Yes, I aggreee on both, we set the thrust face with a dead blow, but flow the converter is definitely a issue.
After seeing this thrust issue on an LS I was wondering what a manual trans can do to thrust on an LS, and what precautions one would take to lessen the blow on the crank?
We machine the bearing to put more oil on the thrust face
Awesome! Thanks for the info!@@powellmachineinc
Ttitle made me think the head was the culprit and I was like..........how??
Lol
Nobody [else] will know when your ring gap is too BIG, but everyone will know when it's too SMALL.
The last 6.0 I assembled for a 600whp goal was 0.023 & 0.024". I've seen sludge puppies boosted right out of the junkyard survive 700whp with 0.012-0.018". Even my 3"-bore Honda was set to 0.018", 15yrs old and it only eats boost not oil.
So the customer did the assembly??.. lesson learned
Correct
Someone probably didn’t click the converter into the transmission properly when installing.
No, that wasn't the issue
Okay, that was an eye-opener! I know your specialty is engines, but exactly what do they do to an AT to reduce the fluid pressure to the converter?! I've always been a MT guy, but about to dive into the TH400 world! Great vide!
We restrict the passage in the pump that feeds the converter..
@@powellmachineinc That's not always the answer, or a problem. Might want to follow the oil route in AND out. Then there's the oil routing inside the torque converter, complete with internal blockages by less than knowlegable assemblers. You can't make a blanket statement on cause and effect, too many variables.
Overheating the trans will do the same thing. The converter is the first thing to get hot and creates 90% of the heat generated in automatic transmissions. Remember that guy you saw pulling the giant RV with a 1/2 Chevy truck? Says "it's okay, I have a load leveling hitch and air bags!"
Yup, that's the guy who come into the trans shop with a red-hot converter, the trans puking fluid out the vent tube, and fluid that smells like burnt chicken cooked in rotten eggs! These are the guys who's converters swell and take out the crank. I've seen them so bad that the ECM looses signal from the crank sensor because the crank has moved so far forward. Your first clue is the belt squealing like mad when they go to take off from a stop light!
@@misterhipster9509 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I should send my 5.3 and rotating assembly to you and have you assemble it for me, building a 383 forged rotating assembly that needs balanced, plan on 15 to 20 lbs of boost
Crazy that they pay for all that, but not go ahead and assemble it. What happens if you gap say 30, for turbo ,but dont run turbo right away?
I'd be curious what the trans pump looks like.
gotta wonder if his oil choice contributed to how it ran so long this way.
the scuffing just looks really clean and even.
Send what you have said to a piston ring manufacturer. On 2nd thoughts they will probably not answer you, the same as Daniel has not replied. How about you go and study a bit from a piston, ring and/or engine manufacturer(s) before you make a comment. Retired mechanic/machinist who for a while worked at an engine reconditioning shop many years ago.
@bobhudson6659 shit man, I didn't know I needed to be so qualified to comment.
I build, rebuild, assemble engines. only a few each year, and am by no means the king of my trade.
I just wondered about the oil choice, the wear pattern just looked so uniform.
By that do you mean that you do or do not check ring gaps when assembling motors?@@roycejulian1517
Wrong bearings on an after market crankshaft with improper chamfer clearance, will kill thrust. Not the case here.
8 thou gap?!!?? Wow!
What are the possible fixes for the 2-step or Trans Brake to avoid this, what can he do to the transmission to continue using them but not have this happen again?
You have to restrict the fluid going to the converter, we reduce the feed hole to the converter.
That would be frustrating doing machining and then someone assembling the engine that does not know what they are doing.
It sure is
With everything they had you do, why didn’t they just have you build out the long block? People make so really dumb choices. Your shop clearly does really nice work.
The scuffed bores are definitely caused by the assembler not taking the time to properly gap the pistons... $ For another set of pistons over-sized oistons and another 8 bores & hones to match the new oversized pistons & rings... .. The ruined crank thrust bearing surface, was a result of using a non- standard (racing) torque converter... More $ the client has to spend for a new crankshaft and bearing kit... Apparently the client must make big MONEY, doing the racing in this vehicle, otherwise they could not afford to come back for more machine work , and parts, and down time...
Charge pressure is a big deal with an ls.
I am building a 4g63 over here in the other end of the world. I put ARP main studs instead of the OEM bolts. Now my 4th cilinder main clearance is 0,00039" smaller then the other ones. I can't find any shops that hone the mains in my country. Do you think this would be okay to run? Its for an evo 8 going to make around 700hp.
Way t0 tight , you should have .002-..0025
@@powellmachineinc Thank you for your answer. I meant the last main is 0.00039" smaller then the other mains. And my question was if that's okay without honing? If i maybe use an extra clearance bearing?
@@bcr1818 i would need to know the actual clearance but .. how are you acuratley measuring to 5 decimal places in a bearing?
And, too much end gap on the rings is not that big of a deal. A much more tolerable problem.
What did the customer say when you showed them all this?
He realized the mistakes and said this is a good opportunity to stroke it🙂
Lol
@@powellmachineinctoo funny😂
trying to save a dollar cost this fella about $4000.00 or more
Yep
And worn main bearings will damage a tranny pump bushing.
I woulda been chasing a converter spacing issue.
Yep
Converter spacing is not the issue in our case.. converter feed is
@@GeorgeFarahGNR excessive converter feed causing converter to baloon, right?
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 converter has an anti ballon plate and billet cover. The converter is physical moving into the crank. Spacing was set on initial install. Non of it was an issue until I started launching the truck on 2 step.
@@GeorgeFarahGNR yeah, I'm just trying to understand the effect of overfeeding. I guess inlet pressure to torque converter pushes converter towards block. The part I don't understand in my head is the cross section might be a few square inches? At 90psi, that's 270lb thrust.
Anyway, 1st I've heard of overfeeding but I learn new things everyday and then try to understand the details.
How far can you bore that 6.0 LS block?
You can go .065 but I always sonic test for wall thickness
Some lunatics that run Meth fill these blocks amd claim .090”+
HOW can a guy spend that much money on a nice motor and not know how to end gap rings??? He/you or somebody needs to really check the ring lands because as you know that much friction was acting on the ring lands as well as the cylinder walls. THAT is a mess!!
Everyone is a "engine builder" these days....just ask the internet
Evidently, he should not attempt to assemble an engine. There's always enough money to do the job twice. This is unfortunate and avoidable. I feel bad for the customer.
That's not nice, but it could easily have been a lot worse
Guaranteed!
usually the ring peels the top of the piston ,I hope you aren't fixing this for free.
No, it has nothing to do with me, we just did the machine work