a deadly education review || info-dumping at a magic school
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- Опубликовано: 12 ноя 2020
- [CC] High highs and low lows, but I'd read more. Thank you to Del Ray for a copy of this book!
A Deadly Education by Naomi Novik
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Развлечения
"Mana" is a ubiquitous term in fantasy roleplaying games and communities. It derives from Polynesian but has taken on its own distinct meaning over time; it is a homonym.
Book 2 just came out. I liked it better for the most part. The action kicks off quickly, and I felt like the POV character was more sympathetic and actually built a relationship/friendship with two allies. We learn more about them, and I cared about their fates. And there will be a third book, so the story arc isn't quite over.
God the info dumping is REAL with this one! I’m only on chapter 5 but STILL WITH THE INFO DUMPING. Does it ever stop??? Is how you create each and every spell and how the school works THAT FREAKING RELEVANT?? I feel like Naomi should have cut out 3/4 of unnecessary info dumping and just made this a nice dialogue. I actually loved Uprooted and I really liked Spinning S but I am struggling with this one…. #bored
Ahh I loved Uprooted and enjoyed Spinning Silver and reading some of those goodreads reviews outlining the problematic representation is just...YIKES. I'm a Muslim South African of Indian descent and seeing that the reviews mention all of those parts of my identity being treated poorly means I'll skip it! Thanks for the excellent review Marines!
I liked the way you describe this. also how you kept that book in frame the whole video i'll never know
i think this is one of those books where i'm glad that my hold is going to take a while to come in because I don't feel like going into it with the frustrations I had with people's dismissiveness over other people's issues with the book...BUT i'm glad to have your review in mind for when i do get around to it. And also I will treasure "he's like a himbo in the making"
Yes, for sure. There is a substantial line between "this didn't bother ME" and "this didn't bother me so it shouldn't bother you." I think that reading it, you will completely see the basis of these complaints. The supporting characters do feel hollow. There is a Harry Potter-esque flavor of "multi-cultural school," but not as egregious. The MC is also biracial, but grew up with her white mom. On the one hand, that's a whole choice for a white author to make. On the other, that's also people's real, lived experiences! So, idk. I walked away with the feeling of how "bad this is will be personal." It also felt careless and ignorant and not malicious, though that might be cold comfort.
@@mynameismarines Thank you for delineating such a clear distinction between didn't bother me/shouldn't bother you. I think it is exactly right. I have a question for you that flips this around a bit... generally speaking (not just about A Deadly Education) I have the sense that some (many?) people who are in the camp of "didn't bother me" sometimes feel like they shouldn't even say they liked a particular book for fear of backlash, even if they understand why others are bothered by it (I'm not talking about obtuse people, but well-intentioned and thoughtful people). I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on this topic. There is so much to be gained by open dialogue and a willingness to learn from each other but sometimes I think it can devolve quickly into shaming, even if unintentional. Thank you for your entertaining and thought-provoking content!
i think the way the book glosses over the deaths is very much in keeping with the protagonist's mentality though. she keeps saying that you can't afford to think too much or feel too much in the school.
I know im a year late to this but I was just watching an episode of outrageous pumpkins yesterday and one of the carver's described the devil picture she carved into the pumpkin as being curly haired and evil and the judge was a person of color and she outright stated she didn't appreciate that description and that association. I think it just goes to show how even if you don't know where these beliefs come from, they're incredibly pervasive and and constantly perpetuated by seemingly innocuous things.
I heard an interview with the author last year talking about this book and was so excited. Sad to hear the disappointing aspects. Keeping that in mind, I’ll request the audiobook version from my library to play in the background while doing housework.
Ohhh!! This was one of my most anticipated books of this year! I have a copy but I'm intimidated to read it solely because I don't want to be disappointed by it.. >_
I didn't read this one or the second one but I read the third and I thought it was awesome! Not too much info dumping (just clues that she had explained these things in prior books), not too much narration, lots of plot, and I loved the reveals and the ending! 4/5 would recommend The Golden Enclaves.
Those nails 😍 It had such promise, but I think I'll pass on this book. Thanks for taking one book off my endless TBR.
This is the first video of yours I watched from start to finish in months. I haven't read (for leisure) in a long time; watching bookish content is a reminder that my interest has waned and causes me to wonder if I am imposter as a lover of literature. But, I do enjoy listening to you speak about your reading experiences: your views are nuanced and your delivery is delightful.
I'm so sorry! I went through a bunch of months in the middle of this year where I didn't read at all as well, so I know what a bummer it is. I wanted to be reading in my heart, but my head said no. And as much as it sucks, your love of reading will keep and it will come back when you are ready!
Thank you for watching ❤️
I keep seeing such reviews of A Deadly Education, and my will to read it gets kinda...murky. But at the same time I want to read it, see what I think and return to those reviews.
I don't understand what's bad about using the term 'mana'. Basically every video game uses that, a tiny handful of books uses it, and it also shows up in a lot of Japanese light novels. What's wrong with it?
From my understanding, mana is a Moari word and concept, and yes one that has been appropriated and used widely. I think what that means about when and where it can and should be used is a bigger conversation. I don't know enough to really delve deep, however. I just wanted to highlight it as one of the complaints I heard about the representation!
@@mynameismarines Well, I know that video games use a lot of terms from various mythologies. Such as a Final Fantasy game calling their planet 'Gaia' like the Greek goddess, and quantifying their magic in 'mana points', and reviving characters with a 'Phoenix Down' (a phoenix being immortal and rising from the ashes is a European thing, as the Chinese phoenix is not associated with revival). It's a Japanese game but all these things are taken from other cultures, and as long as the piece of fiction isn't dumping on them by saying something like 'a culture that invents a term like Gaia is dumb' then I don't see anything wrong. *shrug*
Rules of political correctness and cancel culture aren't balanced or fair. You can get criticized for no diversity. Add diversity and you get criticized for appropriation. And it only goes in one direction.
I think the issue is just because someone somewhere has an issue with something in a book others can, at times, jump on that info and start parroting it out. I.E. Statements like "I heard there was a proprioception or racism in this book." getting spread by dozens of book reviewers without actually diving deep into the intent of the author or was actually being complained about and WHY and whether or not it's actually valid complaints or just subjective nitpicking.
Before you know it you have a problematic book from a well-meaning author (I believe in this case anyways) and potentially problematic reviews from well-meaning reviewers and a whole bunch of readers in the middle not sure what to think.
Thoughts like, "Is it bad I like the book that's problematic? Is the book actually problematic? What if it is problematic and I just don't see it?" Etc etc can fill a person's head all without having a read the book and having a chance to decide for themselves.
Personally, I didn't find this story frustrating. But I also listened to it on audiobook and occasionally passively. But this is also a reason I reread books. The first time I read or listen to a book is for entertainment. I overlook a lot unless it is blatantly bad. My second and third time reading, I pick up a lot more on a critical level. I'm planning on rereading it sometime this year.
I’m only watching this because I want to support you but I’m honestly so over this book. Frankly, the racism aspect of it bothered me enough for it to be a no go. She’s not biracial Indian and the representation just feels like she wanted to have BIPOC characters but not actually do the work for it. I think too many white authors take Indian/South Asian characters for our magical culture but I wouldn’t be given that grace 🥴
Anyways, you always do a great job in talking about the book in all aspects.
The narrator talking too much is so hilarious!! I’m so mixed about this book. I’ve heard a booktuber who is of the decent of the main character say that she loves the book and the rep for her specifically but then I’ve also heard so much contrary to that
I appreciate your transparency with your reviews. I was really interested since I liked Uprooted but...I think this is a pass. Thank you for saving me time 😂
Yeah, I don't blame you! With middle of the road books, it's hard to make the commitment. There were things here I enjoyed, but it is a bit of an investment in a bunch of exposition to get there. Thank you for watching!
Does anywhere in this trilogy mention dracula, the devil, or controlling weather while riding a flying dragon?
The idea of a narrator talking too much is hilarious to me and now I'm gonna have to keep a lookout for that lol
Your extra bit at the end is exactly how I summarize things and I hate that I do this 😂 I can ramble about my likes and dislikes of a book all day but ask me to describe the basic plot of something I just read??? good luck friend lol
I found the info dumps and over-descriptiveness of this book to bog down all the interesting stuff that was there. Like I'm nodding with you while you go over the dark stuff and I definitely remember reading those parts, but I never got engrossed into the world because El's narration was tedious af.
Yeha I'm with you on the "your mileage may vary". I got really tired of seeing "this didn't bother me so it's not offensive" in the reviews (doesn't bother me ≠ it's not there/not potentially offensive !!!). I knew about the main issues people had before reading, and while it wasn't a dealbreaker for me either it's quite obvious Novik *tried* to make it diverse but didn't try *that* hard and it shows. It can't disappoint me if my expectations are already abysmally low LOL. I think Novik's writing style doesn't jive with me to begin with, so it's like a typical Novik book for me.
I mentioned tuning out for parts of this, but I also listened on audiobook at a ridiculous speed. There is something to be said for the fact that I did consume this book, but only at a very fast pace lol. It was the only way to get through it.
Yes, I said this same thing in an earlier comment! Like everyone please, there is a difference between not bothering me and it shouldn't bother you because it didn't bother me. Come on. This is interesting too because I think that maybe knowing in advance that it had these issues set my expectations at the right level. I wonder how much more let down I would've been had I been so excited to get into the book and was encountered with her superficial takes on some of this rep? Instead, I adjusted my expectations and there is a lot to be said for how that changes your experience of a work.
I feel like books that emphasize magic schools are always high on my read list, but then kind of fail to live up to my expectations. (I'm thinking of Magic for Liars for instance.) Do you have any recommendations that succeeded?
This pretty much captures how I feel as well! I think it's the HP influence where I'm always really eager for a magic school book, and it makes me think that I love this trope, but then I read other magic school books and I'm like "meh." I was also disappointed in Magic for Liars. I'd have to think about if I've read any I would recommend, but the first ones that jumped into my head were The School for Good and Evil (no), The Magicians (heck no) and The Name of the Wind (ehhhh). I'm going to read this comment in my next comment response video, though, and see if people have recommendations!
The Nevermoor series is middle grade but I reallyyy love the magic school aspect of it. Tbh I love everything about that series 🥰
Her books are always info dumps, lol. I could read this one easier than her previous books, though. I had to dnf a few of those.
I think I'm going through an odd bureaucratic phase with fiction but the setting just doesn't sell it to me or make a lot of sense. A school with no teachers but still having classes and short hair being a sign of wealth. Makes me wonder more about the world outside the school and what allows it exist/function.
I just finished reading the book and it really didn't click with me. On the one hand, it felt too juvenile, on the other hand too millennial. To me, the whole book didn't seem to be a fantasy novel but a coming of age story where school is portrayed as how (histrionic) teens perceive it, while they're also struggling growing up in a society where everyone is defined by their professional assets instead of their personality. I haven't read/watched any reviews yet (apart from yours) so I don't know what everybody else's reading of the book is, but I'd really be interested in finding out whether someone had the same experience as I or the total opposite.
Oh, yes! We talked about this on the live show, but I didn't think to bring it up. This was marketed as an adult fantasy and we could not figure out WHY. I mean, probably because it is "dark" but 1- it's not really that dark and 2- all of the themes and characters are YA. The main relationship is also very young. I think people coming here expecting an adult fantasy are likely to be disappointed. That said, I love coming of age stories. And this is certainly one where the emphasis was on navigating relationships within the magic framework. It made it all the more strange to me, then, that Novik spent so much time going into details of the magic and skimping on the characterization when her book is really about the relationships? The world is summarized by "magic" and "school trying to kill us."
I personally found it intriguing at least that the characters are at least partially dealing with what we as the reader feel-- this can't be the best way to handle things. That frustration of "really? We are just going to send kids to school to be eaten?" is something you hear about from El, and yet, everyone just keeps going with it. It's easier in this economy to buy this sort of unquestioning support of the status quo, especially one that serves the rich and well connected.
I've seen reviews all over the board so far! I've seen people call it a favorite of the year, and then there were the early reviews slamming it. Everyone in House Salt Book Club gave it middle of the road ratings, I believe.
I was never interested in this book (magic schools are not my favourite thing to read about), and after the mixed reviews, I decided that it definitely wasn't worth my time. Besides, I'm a character reader, so info dumps about the world drive me crazy hahah
I just really found the the main character so annoying. Maybe, if nobody likes you, its a YOU problem. In a school where your survival is so linked to forming an alliance, you would believe she would at least ACT nice. Also, her insistence on how super strong she realy is got so old so quick. Got to like 80 pages and DNFed.
Very interesting! I listened to the book on tape and the locks didn't stand out to me but I also don't associate them with dirty (and I'm white and can be blind to those things as well).
I also had no idea manna was seen as appropriation. I truly associate it with Legend of Zelda and D&D though. Certainly if it is appropriation it's not unique in fantasy, which doesn't make it less of a problem, but I'm surprised people would @ her specifically for it but overlook it in the entire fantasy video game genre. Could be that people aren't aware of those occurrences but that seems unlikely.
This is the first I've heard that it's bad to use the term. It seems so odd to just suddenly highlight one book. (Though maybe people have been talking about it for years and nobody listener until now)
If an author has to think of pleasing every single reader, or fear offending every single reader, they'll never write anything.
Eh, thanks for the review. I don't think I'm really interested in this book, it seems a little too dark for me.
Yep, fair enough! It's not on the level of like a Ninth House with it's LOOK HOW DARK I AM! but there is a fair amount of monsters attacking children so.
Mana has been used in pop culture for literal decades (50+ years!), I don't think you can really criticise it at this point because it has become its own thing. I'd say learning about the words origins is a cool thing, and I also don't see how it is appropriation at all. It is literally used as what it means in its origin and doesn't imply anything else. Am I missing something here?
edit: doing some research I have learned that the words tattoo and taboo also have those origins, and I'd see their usage in the same harmless category as mana.
edit2: just realised this video is 3 years old lol
This is what person gets when they try to write YA fantasy in a post 2010 woke world and don’t go over the top in pandering to the Woke culture we live in. Hopefully she steers clear of YA until cancel culture gets canceled because I’m sick of the virtue signaling by all these white YA fantasy authors for the sake of pandering and not for the sake of the story. It’s like they are all just checking the boxes and it’s nauseating. The 3 “problematic” issues are so over the top picky it’s almost funny… almost. The dreadlock was careless but she was thinking of a white person sporting dreads, which absolutely takes scalp oil and dirt. They need it to imitate what Afro American hair can do on its own. The other two issues?? Please.
But God the info dumping is REAL with this one! I’m only on chapter 5 but STILL WITH THE INFO DUMPING. Does it ever stop??? Is how you create each and every spell and how the school works THAT FREAKING RELEVANT?? I feel like Naomi should have cut out 3/4 of unnecessary info dumping and just made this a nice duology. I actually loved Uprooted and I really liked Spinning S but I am struggling with this one…. I feel the exact same as you do regarding too much info dumping and exposition and narrating. But yeah, As far as the “problematic”areas, I couldn’t care less.
The simplistic language you are you using to devalue other people's lived experiences tells me I need to keep my response simple. You are racist.