I just wound my first toroid. I have some health issues that make it more challenging to keep up with things... like the number of turns I have made. I found it helpful to think of not only the number of the turns that I had made, but also the number of turns that I had remaining. So, for 20 turns 19/1, 18/2, etc... I have no idea of why it worked, but it really did help.
Thank you sir! It's fascinating how different wire material and different lengths of the same wire combined with different types of the material for the core can create some characteristic that can actually be measured and used!
just watched your video on winding torroids for my wisperlite clasic and found it very helful, especially using your peg method, I have never wound any torroids at all. thanks fo your help. 73 g1gdb
Thanks for the idea of the post to wind the inductors on. To the best of my knowledge there are essentially 2 types of magnet wire insulation, the high temperature insulation for such things as motor windings, and the low temperature for signal windings, such as guitar pickups and receiver stage coupling. The smaller the wire the more likely it is to be low temperature. Magnet wire should all come with the melt temperature of the insulation specified, but it seldom does when you buy less than a whole spool of wire. Suppliers are lazy.
Excellent video. One way to check the windings is to take a pic with a cellphone camera and then zoom in on the picture to count the windings. Works really well for 60yr old eyes.
I have never wound a toroid, but I have an idea that might help with manually managing the length of wire... - Measure the wire to length and cut. - Measure to the midpoint of this wire and mark the location. - For the first turn, pass the wire through the core and advance it to its midpoint. - Start your first turn at this location. - Wind half the wire in one direction. Repeat with the other half, winding in the counter direction. In this way, the longest piece of wire that you must manage is only half of the total wire length. I hope that this method is permissible and that the idea helps.
Nice video and I used to wind like you show, however I now wind mine differently. When I wind, I keep all the turns tightly bound to the core shape using a fair amount of tension. I do this for four reasons. First the inductance is markedly increased by being closer the core; so less turns needed per unit-inductance. Second, I've had frequency instabilities in oscillator circuits (even micro-phonics) and had to resort to then using a fair amount of Q-Dope to stabilize them. Thirdly, I can often use a smaller toroid core (because of being able to get enough inductance) and conserve space; also I can preserve the lead-to-lead gap that is recommended. I have never had any problems with scraping the toroid or wire, or wire breakage. Lastly, I have been able to reduce the inter-winding capacitance by having tight turns (thus picking up the inductance) and being able to spread out those individual turns more. Anyway, thanks for posting your videos; I've certainly learned a lot from both you and your great viewers. 73!
Hi Alan, your videos are the best. I know this video is pretty old, but I have a comment about making sure I have the correct number of turns in case you or others have not started to use their smart phone camera to confirm turns count. I do count the turns as I go, but then I use the camera on my smart phone and zoom in on the toroid wound coil and take a picture. Then it's very easy to count the number of turns by looking at the picture to confirm the turn count is correct or just how many more turns you need, and you can zoom in more on the picture as needed. Just FYI Don (wd8dsb)
I usually leave the leads long before testing. A few times I had to add a winding to get the inductance to where I wanted it to be. If the measured inductance is too high, then try to unwrap one (without) cutting and measure again. When they are all done I give each toroid a dunk in corona dope (but clear fingernail polish works too).
Thanks for this! I was about to ask this question you answered. What 99.999% of all toroid videos I seen to date, after the first winding, everything is perfect or "close enough". I am trying to wind for a unun and struggling with this because I am told you can get good measurements unless the leads are short. But what if you need more turns? I am new at this and it's probably a stupid comment but I am Sure others wonder the same thing that are new.
strip the enamel ? The method I use. I have a small tub of radio shack rosen flux I dip the enameled wire into the flux Then apply a little solder to my tip Then move the iron along the enameled wire 99.9 percent of the time the enamel will burn off and the wire will take solder nicely Flux can be your friend :) When soldering objects and want to avoid excessive heating ? apply flux make sure iron is HOT Get on and get off Sometimes by having a smoking hot iron and you can keep components and soldered objects cooler Just get on and get off Like I said Flux can be a real help Counting Turns ? Take a good picture with your phone Put the picture on a computer enlarge the picture and have a really good easy look :)
The chopstick and the 3D printed gripper are both clever options. I've always just gripped the core between my left thumb and forefinger and wound the wire on with my right hand. Never really felt the need for mechanical assistance, but I can see how it would reduce fatigue if you're winding a lot of toroids. Even the QRP Labs transceivers have enough toroids to wind that it might make a difference.
I just watched this video, again, after five years. Yep, there is still more to be gleaned from it. Thanks, Alan! I have another idea for a tip, but I have not tried it, yet. Might it be helpful to either 1) flatten a portion of the chop stick, along its length, or 2) cut a notch, along its length, in order to make a void through which to pass the wire? This method would mean that the toroid would remain fastened by friction and, yet, more than one turn could be passed through the toroid's center, before the toroid would need to be lifted and turned. It might also make it possible to cinch the wire down firmly against the toroid's body, which should improve the final component's operations. A void of one-third of the circumference might do as a size from which to begin testing the idea...
It's a good idea, one that I have done myself. I've carved a groove in mine to allow the wire to pass - makes it easy to put the turn right where I want it.
Escellent. This is one of the core construction concepts or practices I've seen used by the best builders. If you can do this, you can build a uBITX from scratch ect. Ashhar would have put this out but he's a busy guy.
Currently putting the finishing touches on a Ham Labs QRP CSX-40. Winding the toroids with your method beats all the rest I have ever used. Get ready to find me on CW QRP.
Great idea using a chopstick, i tried it to wind a T30-6 with 35 turns but the opening ID got so small even with a thinned out chopstick it was still to big. I ignored your advice and wound the last 10 or so turns on it with out counting. Then took a picture and marked of every 5 turns with a paint program, it was easy to count. thanks again for the tip. My tip to pass back, to solder the body on a PL-259, take the tip off of a soldering gun and use the current to heat up the body, solder will just flow in.
Good job dude I have been working on getting back in to electronics your videos are very helpful in my quest. I got my Amateur radio technician license last month so I am moving along. Keep up the good work. 73's from KD2GOE
Nice video. One comment though. I always read that you were supposed to end the winding before the end of the toroid so you leave a small gap of unwound core material exposed. Not an excessive gap but a small gap maybe 10 degrees wide or so. This minimizes stray capacitance between the two ends of the toroid.
Yes, you are right. It would probably be better if I overlapped the last few turns to preserve the small gap between the first and last turns. Excellent point!
Yes. It's routine practice to cover only 270 degrees of the circumference to avoid the interwinding capacitance on the one hand and to make it easy to mount the core vertically on the PCB along the bare side of the torroid. De VU2RZA
@@1Howdy1 maybe; but the Al value and the estimated inductance may not be always corroborate with the actual winding in the real world because the permeability of each piece of the same batch of torroids are found to be differing a bit on either side of the Al value given by the manufacturer. De VU2RZA
SeAfasia May also want to look at the DE-5000. Can do capacitance, Inductance and ESR, all for under $100.00 depending on the lead options. Well reviewed on EEVBLOG.
Alan, can I ask why are you wind your toroid‘s so loosely? When I wind toroid, I typically will form the wire around the toroid tightly but not so tight that it would damage either the toroid‘s coating or the wires coating. The reason I do this is twofold: the first, is that the windings stay nicely in place without necessarily putting Q-dope on them, also I noticed that the inductance value will stay much more stable when there’s movement(especially in a VFO); second if I wind the wire tightly, I get greater coupling with the core and therefore a noticeable increase in inductance which allows me to then use a larger gauge wire with fewer turns which reduces the resistance and improves the Q of the core. Thanks for all your videos, I’ve learned a lot but in this case I would really like to hear your opinion. 73...
Yes, I normally wind them as tight as possible. In this case, the toroid in question is very small (the camera makes it look big), and I could've used a thinner gauge wire. In my first attempt at this video, I broke the wire a few times trying to make it tighter. In retrospect, I should've made this video with a larger diameter core which would have been easier to tighten the wires on.
@@w2aew Well Alan, thank you very much for replying so quickly. I now understand, and I too have had the unfortunate luck of breaking wire when I had a toroid about 7/8’s completed; specifically when I was winding some gate-drive toroids (pre-high current P-channel MOSFETs era) with #40 wire on ferrite-beads! Again Alan thank you so much for all you do for both the Ham and electronics community!
Allan , I have seen your fixture for the LC meter before , but have not seen a video for that little board fixture , could you link to it ? I will go looking also . Thanks again
It was used in the video on varactor diodes: Basics of Varactor Diodes | Voltage Controlled Oscillator VCO Example But maybe the fixture deserves it's own video at some point.
Thanks for the video, nice and simple explanation. I wrap mine a little tighter and dipped the toroid in polyurethane. I know its not really necessary but the winding's stay nice and even. Again thank you for the video. 73s Brian Adelsheim Germany
Alan, this is a very helpful video. Say, do you suppose you could continue publishing your progress and experiences with the Ensemble II kit? Several of us are making this kit and having your videos to reference during building and operating would be very helpful. Thanks!
Thanks. I wasn't planning on going over every assembly step like I did for the Softrock Lite II receiver kit from two weeks ago. Many of the details are the same. I may do a bit on testing each section, as well as a circuit walk-through when I've got it completed though.
Alan: Thanks very much for this tutorial on winding toroids. You have a wonderful way of explaining things in a calm and methodical way. Also, the quality of the video and audio was superb. I love the modified chopstick winding tool. Going to use it right away. I did have one question. I need to wind a couple of toriodal inductors for a project I am currently working on that involves three separate windings on a T 50-2 toroid. Two of the windings must be "in phase" with one another. I have tried, unsuccessfully, to find an explanation of what this means in terms of winding these two coils. Can you enlighten me? Many thanks.
***** Alan at the risk of wearing out my welcome, can you point me to a place I might learn about ensuring multiple windings on a single core are "in phase". See my earlier post below: I did have one question. I need to wind a couple of toriodal inductors for a project I am currently working on that involves three separate windings on a T 50-2 toroid. Two of the windings must be "in phase" with one another. I have tried, unsuccessfully, to find an explanation of what this means in terms of winding these two coils. Can you enlighten me?
James Hyde Quite simply, having windings in phase means that they are wound in the same direction, and the in-phase condition is met when pairing up the ends where the wires first enter the toroid. These are often indicated on a schematic with "dots". Sounds like it might be a good topic for a video...
***** Alan: Great--this is exactly the information I was looking for. For a non-engineer hobbyist like myself I found lots of references to the "importance of phasing" or following the "phasing dots" in the diagram but no where anyone explained how to ensure the two windings are in phase. Even the Handbook was vague on topic. I think it would make a great video addition for people such as myself. many thanks for all of your hellp. 73's K1KJW.
W2aew, Using higher value choke values in power supplies will give a different sag compared to using lower value choke values. The Choke is a reactive component and explain why this happens because the chokes are tuned to 60hz or 120hz in power supplies so the higher or lower the choke value does something with the current to starve the circuit when drawing current? What I mean is that the Choke is a reactive AC resistor and the higher value chokes are a reactive AC resistor and the lower value chokes are a reactive AC resistor but what is the differences when the current is drawing current when using a Higher value choke compared to using a lower value choke?
Is there a direction that you wind the wire? clockwise, anti-clockwise? or do they work the same regardless? Also, is it better to have the turns evenly distributed or to leave a gap at the size with the wires? thanks and 73
Direction of winding isn't important, just be consistent about it, especially important when doing multiple windings (transformers) so that the phasing is correct. See my video on "phasing dots". Turns should be evenly distributed around the core, but leave a larger gap between the where the first turn starts and the last turn ends to minimize capacitive coupling from input to output.
My output voltage is quite low on hand wound toroid transformer. I did match the frequency to source AC, used proper core, and both wound in same direction. What is efficiency "percentage difference" of primary not wound exactly over secondary, just wound separate on core? It just looks visually better with 2 different colors insulation.,at separate placements on core.
Excellent tutorials. Its easy to wind a few turns , but when it comes to hundreds it is becoming nearly impossible. My question is that, I have a faulty Acer d260 laptop charger due to broken legs toroidal emf filter (4 legs). Unfortunately, I lost the part and now I need to replace it, but i don't know where to start? I remember it was about 6.20mH of inductance, also I tried to wind one following your video but after assembling the charger I have got overall voltage output swinging between 12V - 7 V where it should be 19V (charger output). Dimension of the ring inner diameter about 9mm, outer diameter 13 mm and height about 4 mm. Also is there any marking on the old part to tell me which is which, like capacitor for example easy to read in order to find a replacement?
Unfortunately, they're not marked. If it was just an EMI filter, it wouldn't affect the voltage. So, it's probably more involved than that. You should be able to find a suitable 19V charger on Amazon for less than $20.
Thank you. Yes, I know. I am just doing to gain more experience (practicing). It is probably also act as transformer, because it is linked to the bridge rectifier.
It's probably the energy storage element in the switching regulator. If so, it's specs are quite critical to operation of the regulator, so not something that would easy to replace with anything but the original part.
I have a question: Why use a toroidal core at all? I understand that a toriodal core increases the inductance but couldn't we just compensate with many more turns of wire or would ESR be an issue?
***** hi why don't you build this ? The device can be build in a day at any University.Please study this and help to spread the word about this Malaria Treatment using oscillating magnetic fields which can be built by University students.6 million people are dying each year from Malaria.People just like you.Children,men women, mothers and fathers dying in great pain and suffering from malaria are dying right now.Remember just because it's not shown on the tv does not mean it's not happening. www.washington.edu/news/2000/03/30/magnetic-fields-may-hold-key-to-malaria-treatment-uw-researchers-find/
Just sand the wire where you'll solder it. It's the cleanest way of them all. Also you usually don't need to use flux as surface was protected from oxidation by lacquer (or enamel). While if you burn it, you leave the mess on wire + heat accelerates the oxidation of surface - all this just calls for a bad solder joint.
Thank you very much. Can you recommend a meter for measuring inductors? All the ones I can afford(~$50USD) only measure down to about 10mH no under a few hundred dollars seem to measure µH. ~KB9YEN~
I use one from AADE, but unfortunately the owner of this one man shop passed away. But, this one looks like it's based on a similar design: electronics-diy.com/product_details.php?pid=500&name=Special%20Edition%20Accurate%20LC%20Meter%20Kit
OI AMIGO EU PRECISO URGENTE EXATAMENTE DESSE MICRO TOROIDAL POIS ESTOU DESENVOLVENDO UM PROJETO E NÃO ESTOU ACHANDO ESSE COMPONENTE , GOSTARIA DE SABER QUAL PRACA ELETRÔNICA POSSO ESTAR ENCONTRADO , OBRIGADO , ABRAÇOS 👍
Hi Alan First of all, please accept my deepest condolences for the loss of your father. May he rest in peace. Next, I wish if you could spare some time for doing a video on saturation in inductors. How to find out the matching duty cycle or frequency when pulsing thru a BJT or a MOSFET (example in blocking oscillator or Charged-Induced-Pulse generator) to avoid heat dissipation in BJT/MOSFET due to inductor saturation.
Not really. In general, the thicker the wire, the lower the loss. However, thicker wire is tougher to wind, and fewer turns fit on the core. So, it's a tradeoff of the number of turns needed vs. loss vs. core size.
Thanks so much for letting me know about that! I am a new hatchling in the world of radio. So, naturally I ordered about 50 CW QRP Pixie radio kits and about 50 of the Frog Sounds ones, along with a lot of soldering stuff, wire, bread board, lots of bulk chinese parts that are related to qrp... and meters, etc.... and I'm watching all the small DIY electronics stuff I can find. Thanks again!
w2aew, any reasons why Toroidal transformers radiate less EMF and HUM? Using a Toroidal power transformer for the 120VAC will radiate less EMF and HUM compared to using a iron core power transformer, any reasons why?
Any reasons why the radiated field cancel themselves because the windings are wrapped in a circle? A normal transformer wrapped around an iron core magnet is called what, since the name is not toroidal it would be called what? the iron core is a alnico or ceramic magnet? the iron core is a magnet or non-magnentic?
it gets really confusing because there is so many different types of cores/magnets used that I don't know what cores/magnets they used mostly in transformers in the 50's,60's,70's,80's that was common in power transformers 120VAC for power supplies for consumer products and amplifiers. Some of the cores/magnets have a lament coating
@@w2aew it’ll be a coil inserted in a ferrite material. 460 turns of 38awg isolated copper wire. I’ll get in touch with an electrician here in Brazil. He’s specialised in wiring electrical motors.
What happens if the toroid material isn't right for the frequency? In other words, how do you know if a toroid will work if you don't know it's exact formulation?
Nice tutorial- I notice you are winding anti-clockwise- Diz at toroids dot info / kitsandparts dot com uses the clockwise wound convention - I never thought about it much as I've always wound clockwise- but it could cock up the mounting on a PCB project. "How to Wind Toroids Painlessly" is the page title. Those tiny guys are hard to handle. Thanks for sharing and 73
Fantastic movies but missing what you did many times the paper with theory, paterns and explain how to build the coil, where is different - 25 turns, 20, 10, how fat can be the coil line, also current in coil which can be flowing in this model. A bit disapointed me.
Sadly, David, Neil Heckt, the owner of AADE, passed away in August 2015 and his family are getting affairs in order. No indication as to when/if they will resume business.
The 'amateur' designation is there for a reason. It separates us from 'Commercial' broadcasters (Things like commercial TV stations, commercial Radio stations, etc). We do it for the love of the craft, not the money. (If you were just trying to be funny ... don't give up that day job).
If we were professionals, we'd be cramming advertising at you at light speed constantly into every nook and cranny. That's what professional means to the FCC, FOR PROFIT MUST SELLSELLSELL, and is a quite different rule set. Many "Amateur" Radio Licensed Operators do or did make their professional lives in the service/support and actual broadcasting in the "Professional" ranks of broadcasting. That's the main difference though. Amateurs are about 2-way communications. Professional Radio is about Broadcasting. The FCC decides what we are called, not us. Except for the "ham" part. Clear? Mud? over.
Also as Amateurs, our licensing exams and renewals are just a few bucks and have a 10-year span. And of course there is "professional" 2-way service which is commercial radio for work crews and drive through operations, etc. Commercial service radios are only for a few "channels" and one has to learn nothing about radio in order to buy, license, and use them. Like semi-private CB almost.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
I just wound my first toroid. I have some health issues that make it more challenging to keep up with things... like the number of turns I have made. I found it helpful to think of not only the number of the turns that I had made, but also the number of turns that I had remaining. So, for 20 turns 19/1, 18/2, etc... I have no idea of why it worked, but it really did help.
Thank you sir! It's fascinating how different wire material and different lengths of the same wire combined with different types of the material for the core can create some characteristic that can actually be measured and used!
That was the best amateur radio video I've ever watched. Excellent from so many angles. Thanks! - Bob, W2TAC
+Bob Mayo Thanks! I hope you enjoy the rest of my videos just as much!
just watched your video on winding torroids for my wisperlite clasic and found it very helful, especially using your peg method, I have never wound any torroids at all.
thanks fo your help.
73 g1gdb
Never to old to learn.
Thank you for sharing. Your videos are simple, clear and technically sound. Your channel is one of the best.
Very useful!
Thanks for the idea of the post to wind the inductors on.
To the best of my knowledge there are essentially 2 types of magnet wire insulation, the high temperature insulation for such things as motor windings, and the low temperature for signal windings, such as guitar pickups and receiver stage coupling. The smaller the wire the more likely it is to be low temperature. Magnet wire should all come with the melt temperature of the insulation specified, but it seldom does when you buy less than a whole spool of wire. Suppliers are lazy.
Excellent video. One way to check the windings is to take a pic with a cellphone camera and then zoom in on the picture to count the windings. Works really well for 60yr old eyes.
I have never wound a toroid, but I have an idea that might help with manually managing the length of wire...
- Measure the wire to length and cut.
- Measure to the midpoint of this wire and mark the location.
- For the first turn, pass the wire through the core and advance it to its midpoint.
- Start your first turn at this location.
- Wind half the wire in one direction. Repeat with the other half, winding in the counter direction.
In this way, the longest piece of wire that you must manage is only half of the total wire length. I hope that this method is permissible and that the idea helps.
Alan, you are very patient and knowledgeable. It is relaxing to watch your videos. Thanks!
Nice video and I used to wind like you show, however I now wind mine differently.
When I wind, I keep all the turns tightly bound to the core shape using a fair amount of tension. I do this for four reasons. First the inductance is markedly increased by being closer the core; so less turns needed per unit-inductance. Second, I've had frequency instabilities in oscillator circuits (even micro-phonics) and had to resort to then using a fair amount of Q-Dope to stabilize them. Thirdly, I can often use a smaller toroid core (because of being able to get enough inductance) and conserve space; also I can preserve the lead-to-lead gap that is recommended. I have never had any problems with scraping the toroid or wire, or wire breakage. Lastly, I have been able to reduce the inter-winding capacitance by having tight turns (thus picking up the inductance) and being able to spread out those individual turns more. Anyway, thanks for posting your videos; I've certainly learned a lot from both you and your great viewers. 73!
Good comments, thank you!
Hi Alan, your videos are the best. I know this video is pretty old, but I have a comment about making sure I have the correct number of turns in case you or others have not started to use their smart phone camera to confirm turns count. I do count the turns as I go, but then I use the camera on my smart phone and zoom in on the toroid wound coil and take a picture. Then it's very easy to count the number of turns by looking at the picture to confirm the turn count is correct or just how many more turns you need, and you can zoom in more on the picture as needed. Just FYI Don (wd8dsb)
I usually leave the leads long before testing. A few times I had to add a winding to get the inductance to where I wanted it to be. If the measured inductance is too high, then try to unwrap one (without) cutting and measure again. When they are all done I give each toroid a dunk in corona dope (but clear fingernail polish works too).
Same Here
Thanks for this! I was about to ask this question you answered. What 99.999% of all toroid videos I seen to date, after the first winding, everything is perfect or "close enough". I am trying to wind for a unun and struggling with this because I am told you can get good measurements unless the leads are short. But what if you need more turns? I am new at this and it's probably a stupid comment but I am
Sure others wonder the same thing that are new.
@@jeff-73 You do not leave leads long, you just wind an additional turn, leaving the leads short. Then measure and remove the turn if necessary
strip the enamel ? The method I use. I have a small tub of radio shack rosen flux
I dip the enameled wire into the flux
Then apply a little solder to my tip
Then move the iron along the enameled wire
99.9 percent of the time the enamel will burn off and the wire will take solder nicely
Flux can be your friend :)
When soldering objects and want to avoid excessive heating ?
apply flux
make sure iron is HOT
Get on and get off
Sometimes by having a smoking hot iron and you can keep components and soldered objects cooler
Just get on and get off
Like I said Flux can be a real help
Counting Turns ?
Take a good picture with your phone
Put the picture on a computer
enlarge the picture and have a really good easy look :)
You explain everything very clearly, keep up the good work :)
The chopstick and the 3D printed gripper are both clever options. I've always just gripped the core between my left thumb and forefinger and wound the wire on with my right hand. Never really felt the need for mechanical assistance, but I can see how it would reduce fatigue if you're winding a lot of toroids. Even the QRP Labs transceivers have enough toroids to wind that it might make a difference.
Good job all around! Thanks
I just watched this video, again, after five years. Yep, there is still more to be gleaned from it. Thanks, Alan! I have another idea for a tip, but I have not tried it, yet. Might it be helpful to either 1) flatten a portion of the chop stick, along its length, or 2) cut a notch, along its length, in order to make a void through which to pass the wire? This method would mean that the toroid would remain fastened by friction and, yet, more than one turn could be passed through the toroid's center, before the toroid would need to be lifted and turned. It might also make it possible to cinch the wire down firmly against the toroid's body, which should improve the final component's operations. A void of one-third of the circumference might do as a size from which to begin testing the idea...
It's a good idea, one that I have done myself. I've carved a groove in mine to allow the wire to pass - makes it easy to put the turn right where I want it.
Escellent. This is one of the core construction concepts or practices I've seen used by the best builders. If you can do this, you can build a uBITX from scratch ect. Ashhar would have put this out but he's a busy guy.
Currently putting the finishing touches on a Ham Labs QRP CSX-40. Winding the toroids with your method beats all the rest I have ever used. Get ready to find me on CW QRP.
We'll keep an ear out for you on 40 CW. I'm just getting back into CW myself, after many years away from it.
Great idea using a chopstick, i tried it to wind a T30-6 with 35 turns but the opening ID got so small even with a thinned out chopstick it was still to big. I ignored your advice and wound the last 10 or so turns on it with out counting. Then took a picture and marked of every 5 turns with a paint program, it was easy to count. thanks again for the tip. My tip to pass back, to solder the body on a PL-259, take the tip off of a soldering gun and use the current to heat up the body, solder will just flow in.
Very informative. Cool meter at the end
Good job dude I have been working on getting back in to electronics your videos are very helpful in my quest. I got my Amateur radio technician license last month so I am moving along. Keep up the good work. 73's from KD2GOE
Nice video. One comment though. I always read that you were supposed to end the winding before the end of the toroid so you leave a small gap of unwound core material exposed. Not an excessive gap but a small gap maybe 10 degrees wide or so. This minimizes stray capacitance between the two ends of the toroid.
Yes, you are right. It would probably be better if I overlapped the last few turns to preserve the small gap between the first and last turns. Excellent point!
That could be why his measured was slightly off from calculated. Didn't affect it that much in this instance - one nice thing about having a meter.
Yes. It's routine practice to cover only 270 degrees of the circumference to avoid the interwinding capacitance on the one hand and to make it easy to mount the core vertically on the PCB along the bare side of the torroid.
De VU2RZA
@@1Howdy1 maybe; but the Al value and the estimated inductance may not be always corroborate with the actual winding in the real world because the permeability of each piece of the same batch of torroids are found to be differing a bit on either side of the Al value given by the manufacturer.
De VU2RZA
Thanks for sharing your technique with us. Have you wind RF transformers on a toroid?
Yes, I show an example in this video: ruclips.net/video/a8ViWS61hsU/видео.html
Excellent lesson, and greatly appreciated!
Alan, this is a fantastic video! I wished I had seen it before I started to build my HF Packer amplifier! Thanks again, keep 'em coming! Karl
Thanks for this tutorial, by the way can you suggest a l/c meter to buy for my lab?
For the money, I really like the one I show in the video from Almost All Digital Electronics (aade).
***** thanks w2aew...
SeAfasia
May also want to look at the DE-5000. Can do capacitance, Inductance and ESR, all for under $100.00 depending on the lead options. Well reviewed on EEVBLOG.
Alan, can I ask why are you wind your toroid‘s so loosely? When I wind toroid, I typically will form the wire around the toroid tightly but not so tight that it would damage either the toroid‘s coating or the wires coating. The reason I do this is twofold: the first, is that the windings stay nicely in place without necessarily putting Q-dope on them, also I noticed that the inductance value will stay much more stable when there’s movement(especially in a VFO); second if I wind the wire tightly, I get greater coupling with the core and therefore a noticeable increase in inductance which allows me to then use a larger gauge wire with fewer turns which reduces the resistance and improves the Q of the core. Thanks for all your videos, I’ve learned a lot but in this case I would really like to hear your opinion. 73...
Yes, I normally wind them as tight as possible. In this case, the toroid in question is very small (the camera makes it look big), and I could've used a thinner gauge wire. In my first attempt at this video, I broke the wire a few times trying to make it tighter. In retrospect, I should've made this video with a larger diameter core which would have been easier to tighten the wires on.
@@w2aew Well Alan, thank you very much for replying so quickly. I now understand, and I too have had the unfortunate luck of breaking wire when I had a toroid about 7/8’s completed; specifically when I was winding some gate-drive toroids (pre-high current P-channel MOSFETs era) with #40 wire on ferrite-beads!
Again Alan thank you so much for all you do for both the Ham and electronics community!
Allan , I have seen your fixture for the LC meter before , but have not seen a video for that little board fixture , could you link to it ?
I will go looking also .
Thanks again
It was used in the video on varactor diodes:
Basics of Varactor Diodes | Voltage Controlled Oscillator VCO Example
But maybe the fixture deserves it's own video at some point.
Great Video. Thank you for the help. Keep up the great work. Nick.
Thanks for the video, nice and simple explanation. I wrap mine a little tighter and dipped the toroid in polyurethane. I know its not really necessary but the winding's stay nice and even. Again thank you for the video. 73s Brian Adelsheim Germany
Could you make a tutorial about how to wind those small RF transformers (for mixers for example)?
Yes, I'll add that to the list.
***** Thanks very much.
Alan, this is a very helpful video. Say, do you suppose you could continue publishing your progress and experiences with the Ensemble II kit? Several of us are making this kit and having your videos to reference during building and operating would be very helpful. Thanks!
Thanks. I wasn't planning on going over every assembly step like I did for the Softrock Lite II receiver kit from two weeks ago. Many of the details are the same. I may do a bit on testing each section, as well as a circuit walk-through when I've got it completed though.
Thank you for sharing your expertise!
I think Joseph Henry just smiled. Nice video.
And Micheal Faraday winked! ;-)
Alan:
Thanks very much for this tutorial on winding toroids. You have a wonderful way of explaining things in a calm and methodical way. Also, the quality of the video and audio was superb. I love the modified chopstick winding tool. Going to use it right away.
I did have one question. I need to wind a couple of toriodal inductors for a project I am currently working on that involves three separate windings on a T 50-2 toroid. Two of the windings must be "in phase" with one another. I have tried, unsuccessfully, to find an explanation of what this means in terms of winding these two coils. Can you enlighten me?
Many thanks.
Great! Best of luck with your project!
*****
Alan at the risk of wearing out my welcome, can you point me to a place I might learn about ensuring multiple windings on a single core are "in phase". See my earlier post below:
I did have one question. I need to wind a couple of toriodal inductors for a project I am currently working on that involves three separate windings on a T 50-2 toroid. Two of the windings must be "in phase" with one another. I have tried, unsuccessfully, to find an explanation of what this means in terms of winding these two coils. Can you enlighten me?
James Hyde Quite simply, having windings in phase means that they are wound in the same direction, and the in-phase condition is met when pairing up the ends where the wires first enter the toroid. These are often indicated on a schematic with "dots". Sounds like it might be a good topic for a video...
*****
Alan: Great--this is exactly the information I was looking for. For a non-engineer hobbyist like myself I found lots of references to the "importance of phasing" or following the "phasing dots" in the diagram but no where anyone explained how to ensure the two windings are in phase. Even the Handbook was vague on topic. I think it would make a great video addition for people such as myself. many thanks for all of your hellp. 73's K1KJW.
W2aew,
Using higher value choke values in power supplies will give a different sag compared to using lower value choke values. The Choke is a reactive component and explain why this happens because the chokes are tuned to 60hz or 120hz in power supplies so the higher or lower the choke value does something with the current to starve the circuit when drawing current? What I mean is that the Choke is a reactive AC resistor and the higher value chokes are a reactive AC resistor and the lower value chokes are a reactive AC resistor but what is the differences when the current is drawing current when using a Higher value choke compared to using a lower value choke?
Perfect instruction. Thank you.
How do you compute the amount of turns thru the torpid to obtain your desired result? Great video
Plenty of online calculators for this, these days. Here's one:
toroids.info/
Is there a direction that you wind the wire? clockwise, anti-clockwise? or do they work the same regardless? Also, is it better to have the turns evenly distributed or to leave a gap at the size with the wires? thanks and 73
Direction of winding isn't important, just be consistent about it, especially important when doing multiple windings (transformers) so that the phasing is correct. See my video on "phasing dots". Turns should be evenly distributed around the core, but leave a larger gap between the where the first turn starts and the last turn ends to minimize capacitive coupling from input to output.
Thank you, enjoyed listening to your story on QSOToday as well. 73
The tapered stick will make my windings a lot easier.
Tnx for this tip.....
My output voltage is quite low on hand wound toroid transformer. I did match the frequency to source AC, used proper core, and both wound in same direction. What is efficiency "percentage difference" of primary not wound exactly over secondary, just wound separate on core? It just looks visually better with 2 different colors insulation.,at separate placements on core.
Excellent tutorials. Its easy to wind a few turns , but when it comes to hundreds it is becoming nearly impossible. My question is that, I have a faulty Acer d260 laptop charger due to broken legs toroidal emf filter (4 legs). Unfortunately, I lost the part and now I need to replace it, but i don't know where to start? I remember it was about 6.20mH of inductance, also I tried to wind one following your video but after assembling the charger I have got overall voltage output swinging between 12V - 7 V where it should be 19V (charger output). Dimension of the ring inner diameter about 9mm, outer diameter 13 mm and height about 4 mm. Also is there any marking on the old part to tell me which is which, like capacitor for example easy to read in order to find a replacement?
Unfortunately, they're not marked. If it was just an EMI filter, it wouldn't affect the voltage. So, it's probably more involved than that. You should be able to find a suitable 19V charger on Amazon for less than $20.
Thank you. Yes, I know. I am just doing to gain more experience (practicing). It is probably also act as transformer, because it is linked to the bridge rectifier.
It's probably the energy storage element in the switching regulator. If so, it's specs are quite critical to operation of the regulator, so not something that would easy to replace with anything but the original part.
pretty cool tip.. I've wound 100's of toroids, holding each one.. tedious indeed!
will be exploring the two different methods you showed. thanks :)
would a bifolar winding enable you to use less wire?
No, it just allows you to get well matched windings.
w2aew ok, thanks
Great idea for the holder !
Anyhow knows how to design a air-core toroidal inductor on a PCB? Or can suggest some resources where I could find necessary information.
Alan I noticed the wire is not laying flat against the outside of the coil….does this affect the inductance ? Nice demo walt K2CXP
Not dramatically. For thinner gauge wire, I'll usually push it flat, but with the heavier wire, I don't worry about it so much.
I have a question: Why use a toroidal core at all? I understand that a toriodal core increases the inductance but couldn't we just compensate with many more turns of wire or would ESR be an issue?
Not only ESR, but the self-resonant frequency will often be lower due to the higher interwinding capacitance.
Oh yes I forgot about interwinding capacitance. Makes sense , thanks for the answer !
*****
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pointy stick pure genius. Please invent fire next :-)
VERY good idea! thank you!!!
This was really good one. Thanks :)
What about a bifilar configuration? Next video please...
Just sand the wire where you'll solder it. It's the cleanest way of them all. Also you usually don't need to use flux as surface was protected from oxidation by lacquer (or enamel). While if you burn it, you leave the mess on wire + heat accelerates the oxidation of surface - all this just calls for a bad solder joint.
hi why the core of toroids are in different sizes Why their core gets smaller when used in rf circuits ?
That was really good.
Thank you very much. Can you recommend a meter for measuring inductors? All the ones I can afford(~$50USD) only measure down to about 10mH no under a few hundred dollars seem to measure µH. ~KB9YEN~
I use one from AADE, but unfortunately the owner of this one man shop passed away. But, this one looks like it's based on a similar design:
electronics-diy.com/product_details.php?pid=500&name=Special%20Edition%20Accurate%20LC%20Meter%20Kit
Thanks. I'm looking into building a mcHF SDR and want to make sure my hand wound toroids are within tolerance.
Nice little vid - thanks, mate.
Why do you not pull each turn tight to the toroid? (Or did you answer that question here in the comments... don't plan to read all of them...)
Thanks.
I did pull each turn as tight as I could given the wire gauge - it just looks looser than desired because of the tiny size of this toroid.
For loudspeaker crossover toroid inductors, non magnetic cores are the ones to use. Am I right?
No they would be huge , they would perform like that first inductor he made. Make the core as magnetic as possible.
OI AMIGO EU PRECISO URGENTE EXATAMENTE DESSE MICRO TOROIDAL POIS ESTOU DESENVOLVENDO UM PROJETO E NÃO ESTOU ACHANDO ESSE COMPONENTE , GOSTARIA DE SABER QUAL PRACA ELETRÔNICA POSSO ESTAR ENCONTRADO , OBRIGADO , ABRAÇOS 👍
I'm not sure what information you need. I find this website very helpful when designing and winding a toroidal inductor.
toroids.info
I wish I knew this 8yrs ago. thanks
Hi Alan
First of all, please accept my deepest condolences for the loss of your father. May he rest in peace.
Next, I wish if you could spare some time for doing a video on saturation in inductors. How to find out the matching duty cycle or frequency when pulsing thru a BJT or a MOSFET (example in blocking oscillator or Charged-Induced-Pulse generator) to avoid heat dissipation in BJT/MOSFET due to inductor saturation.
If there a rule of thumb for determining the very best thickness of wire to use? 73
Not really. In general, the thicker the wire, the lower the loss. However, thicker wire is tougher to wind, and fewer turns fit on the core. So, it's a tradeoff of the number of turns needed vs. loss vs. core size.
Thanks so much for letting me know about that! I am a new hatchling in the world of radio. So, naturally I ordered about 50 CW QRP Pixie radio kits and about 50 of the Frog Sounds ones, along with a lot of soldering stuff, wire, bread board, lots of bulk chinese parts that are related to qrp... and meters, etc.... and I'm watching all the small DIY electronics stuff I can find. Thanks again!
w2aew, any reasons why Toroidal transformers radiate less EMF and HUM? Using a Toroidal power transformer for the 120VAC will radiate less EMF and HUM compared to using a iron core power transformer, any reasons why?
Since the windings are arranged in a circle, the radiated fields cancel themselves.
Any reasons why the radiated field cancel themselves because the windings are wrapped in a circle? A normal transformer wrapped around an iron core magnet is called what, since the name is not toroidal it would be called what? the iron core is a alnico or ceramic magnet? the iron core is a magnet or non-magnentic?
@@waynegram8907 all your questions about transformer cores are answered here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_core
it gets really confusing because there is so many different types of cores/magnets used that I don't know what cores/magnets they used mostly in transformers in the 50's,60's,70's,80's that was common in power transformers 120VAC for power supplies for consumer products and amplifiers. Some of the cores/magnets have a lament coating
👍Thank you sir.
So winding direction/orientation doesn’t matter?
As long as you are consistent about it, and keep track of the phase of the windings, you can wind in either direction or orientation.
The core must be made of ferrite???
+gyorgy komaromi No - they're typically powdered iron or ferrite, depending on the application.
Thanks a lot! Im trying to build a 500mH for wah wah guitar pedals. But I guess this value doesn’t fit in a toroid shape.
That's quite a large value inductor, would probably have to be a large, high permeability core.
@@w2aew it’ll be a coil inserted in a ferrite material. 460 turns of 38awg isolated copper wire. I’ll get in touch with an electrician here in Brazil. He’s specialised in wiring electrical motors.
What happens if the toroid material isn't right for the frequency?
In other words, how do you know if a toroid will work if you don't know it's exact formulation?
The typical results would be that you wouldn't get the target inductance you wanted, or the inductor/transformer will be lossy.
I just put the thousandth like.
Nice tutorial- I notice you are winding anti-clockwise- Diz at toroids dot info / kitsandparts dot com uses the clockwise wound convention - I never thought about it much as I've always wound clockwise- but it could cock up the mounting on a PCB project. "How to Wind Toroids Painlessly" is the page title. Those tiny guys are hard to handle. Thanks for sharing and 73
William Laakkonen I never really thought about it. i guess you just want to be consistent.
Nice video! Even better that we don't need a $13k oscilloscope to play along at home ;-). 73 EA5IGC
Muito bom gostei.
QSL do Brasil
But how do I wind 5000 turns?
Fantastic movies but missing what you did many times the paper with theory, paterns and explain how to build the coil, where is different - 25 turns, 20, 10, how fat can be the coil line, also current in coil which can be flowing in this model. A bit disapointed me.
Much of this information can be found on numerous toroidal winding info and calculator sites - my favorite is toroids.info
Thanks! thumbs up here!
Thanks man!!!
Thanks for the nice Video - 4S7AB Sri Lanka.
Great Video, My eyes are not as good anymore.
I usually wind these using an illuminated magnifier!
Do one extra turn, measure and if your too high remove a turn.
Nice
"10 or 12 more..." lol! The zen or toroid!
Super!!!
Great video. LIKE
thanks!
Neat! es TNX!
Hah, you just sold a IIB for AADE. I hope they pay you commission! :)
Sadly, David, Neil Heckt, the owner of AADE, passed away in August 2015 and his family are getting affairs in order. No indication as to when/if they will resume business.
I know. Saw on QRZ. :( He passed before I could order so don't know if I will ever get one.
Very nice video, thanks so much. I actually thought toroids would be difficult, your video explained otherwise.
your video show a gapbetween te core and the wire of a a finished turn ...bad practise
KJ9P Tom Wow!
Glad you liked it, Tom!
What's with all these "amateurs" in HAM radio? Isn't there any professionalism in HAM radio?
The 'amateur' designation is there for a reason. It separates us from 'Commercial' broadcasters (Things like commercial TV stations, commercial Radio stations, etc). We do it for the love of the craft, not the money.
(If you were just trying to be funny ... don't give up that day job).
If we were professionals, we'd be cramming advertising at you at light speed constantly into every nook and cranny. That's what professional means to the FCC, FOR PROFIT MUST SELLSELLSELL, and is a quite different rule set. Many "Amateur" Radio Licensed Operators do or did make their professional lives in the service/support and actual broadcasting in the "Professional" ranks of broadcasting. That's the main difference though. Amateurs are about 2-way communications. Professional Radio is about Broadcasting. The FCC decides what we are called, not us. Except for the "ham" part. Clear? Mud? over.
Also as Amateurs, our licensing exams and renewals are just a few bucks and have a 10-year span. And of course there is "professional" 2-way service which is commercial radio for work crews and drive through operations, etc. Commercial service radios are only for a few "channels" and one has to learn nothing about radio in order to buy, license, and use them. Like semi-private CB almost.
It is a hobby, but you shouldn't get misled by the word "amateur".
Give 'em L!