I mean they turned up eventually, just like Rohan did in LOTR and they would have been "late" too if called earlier. But I agree. I never knew any of the references to Hammerhand or the Westfield falling.
Something I think you've passed over is in Freca's "old" remark. The second half of that quote, "may fall on their knees", is a direct challenge to Helm's kingship, and can easily be construed as a declaration (or at least a threat) of a rebellion. With that in mind, a peaceful solution was likely never going to happen after Freca made that statement. That's why Helm declared war on Freca's entire family afterwards; Freca didn't just call the king "old" he threatened to overthrow the king himself.
He's too busy being self-righteous over his idea that Helm should have sold his daughter (and likely his kingdom at some point in the future) for "peace" with those that hated his family, his nation, and his people.
@@RaynmanPlays I have a lot of experience with self-righteous people, and I've learned that those who call others self-righteous are usually self-righteous themselves. I think you've actually misunderstood IDG's position on the matter, I don't have the time to break down my observations on his remarks and beliefs, but I do recommend that you re-watch the video and listen for an alternative to your first reaction.
Thanks for pointing this out. It's been a long time since I read the exchange in question, but when listening to this video I remember thinking "wait a sec, it didn't quite come off that way to me when I read it" You've reminded me why! Cheers :)
You forgot the part where Freca brought a company of _several dozen armed men_ to the council at Edoras where he proposed the marriage of his son, Wulf, to Helm's daughter. Freca’s arrival with a small army of armed men was a threat. Helm made it clear that while his men may be a threat, Freca himself was not.
Thanks for the video Robert. I think you missed something in Freca’s interaction with Helm. He didn’t just insult the king, he threatened him. “If you reject my offer you might not be king much longer.” That’s borderline treasonous, and Freca was bold enough to do that in front of Helm’s council. Insulting him was just a bonus. Could Helm have handled it differently or better? Maybe, but Freca was definitely out of line and making a play for power.
The war was inevitable. He was not a saint, but Helm was threatened in his own household. He was an experienced ruler, who foreseen Freca's plot. Vlad "the Impaler" Tepes is considered a monster in human skin, but he also defended his realm against invasion from the hostile empire.
The whole Freca story shows Helm being RESTRAINED. It's no secret that Freca's loyalties/interests are divided between Rohan and their traditional enemies so he's already a shady character as far as Helm should be concerned, but he doesn't critisize Freca for missing most of the meetings that he should by rights come to as a vassal, he doesn't get angry when it turns out Freca only came to this meeting to benefit himself and his family (arrogantly expecting to easily get his way) but fobs it off with a joke instead, and when Freca threatens him in the middle of the meeting in front of everyone (treason), Helm annouces he considers it a joke rather than having Freca punished, or even just allowing loyal vassals to do it for him. Even the final confrontation between the two is Helm setting the advantages of his kingship aside to deal with Freca one-on-one and Freca is so weak he can't take it.
"The horn of Helm Hammerhand shall sound in the deep one last time. Let this be the hour when we draw swords together. Fell deeds awake. Now for wrath, now for ruin, and the red dawn!"
Ive always felt terrible about what happened to the Dunlendings, their land got stolen, people mass murdered and then they were seduced by saruman. The dunlendings mind you were never evil, they fought misty mountains orcs all the same, helped the dwarves when they fled Erebor and only fought Rohan for a very understandable reason.
Yea dunlendins seem to have been done dirty feel a little bit wonder if they were symbolic of the Germans a country that was mistreated then maid evil by a dictator that ensnares them.
I think your analysis is almost always excellent and you have changed my mind on several topics, but I think you misunderstand the inciting incident. Freca is an important man, but he is claiming more significance than his situation warrants. The claims to descent from the royal house underlines this. His marriage proposal is an attempt to insinuate himself into the royal family, possibly so his son can claim the throne later. His comment about the staff is saying, essentially: you need my support to maintain your throne, so you better give me what I want. Helm's reaction is, of course, impulsive and imprudent: he's no diplomat. Declaring Freca's family outlaw IS prudent and even necessary: both Dunlendings and the Rohirrim have the feuding culture and, doubtless, Wulf will seek vengeance for his father's death. Once Helm struck Freca, the course of events were set. I see Helm as a grey character, neither good nor evil. The rest of your exploration was, however, on point, as usual.
@@RonJohn63I'll have you know, IDG lives / lived 11400 years ago, amidst the Younger Dryas period. He buried a thousand thousand manuscripts for these videos, each concluding with a week-long scavenger hunt for the next scroll. He is NOT modern. Even for back then he's a bit stuffy
It was no insinuation to get into the Royal family, it was a direct request and one made publically. I'm thinking that Freca's suggestion was insulting to Helm, Freca's gall to state that their two families were on equal footing. Helm obviously had no intention that his Daughter should "marry down" to what was basically the son of a Cheiftain.
Since this channel is all about "nerdy detail", I shall indulge a bit. Freca's Fat- In Northern Europe, food was often a zero sum game: if someone is fat, that means that someone else has gone short. Hence, in the sagas, describing someone as "fat" was code that they were greedy, particularly either callously or maliciously. Helm's comment about Freca's weight is a reference to this. Freca's Staff- There's another conversation about a staff in Tolkien, and it happens in Medusheld also: when Hana tries to take Gandalf's staff. Gandalf says, would you take an old man's staff, that he leans upon? Freca is offering a metaphorical staff to Helm: he's offering political support and implying that Helm is too old. Helm's response is appropo: "When a crooked staff is thrust upon me.." In other words, you are offering support to me for your own ends, and threatening me by implying that I need that support. Freca's Claims- Freca claims to have royal blood. This, combined with a royal marriage, might give him the legitimacy to claim the throne himself, or for his son to do so. Claiming that Helm needs his support undermines Helm while bolstering his own claim. The political subtext becomes clear: Freca hopes that he or his descendants will hold the throne. Helm HAS to put him in his place. I don't think Helm intended to kill him: he pulled him aside, and had his men keep Freca's men away. I think he wanted to knock foolish ideas out of Freca before the greedy, overbearing chieftain started civil strife. But, the blow killed Freca after a while; we don't know how long, or if he made it home first. Probably caused some nasty internal bleeding. But, with the death of Freca, Wulf now must declare a blood feud against Helm (at least half the sagas are about blood feuds). Civil War is certain.
The film definitely portrayed him more likeable. The film definitely stayed very close to the original material. For the most part, it simply filled in gaps that could be reasonably lost to history. I think the biggest departure the source material was the second son being killed before reaching the helm deep. Even the story's of Helm eating those he defeated was addressed. It was technically a small group of orcs who raided their mass grave in the secret of night, but the enemy soldiers never knew it was orcs and attributed it to Helm thus give birth to that particular legend.
You failed to mention that they were fighting dunlendings as well as orcs, so calling on helm was a way to frighten their enemies who would remember that legend.
As for the reasons the Rohirrim revere Helm the way they do, an apt comparison might be to the Spartan king Leonidas. We have no idea what kind of king Leonidas was prior to Thermopylae (plus what powers he actually had - the Spartan political system was pretty complex). His strategic decisions surrounding Thermopylae had some merit, but in the end he did allow himself to get outflanked by a far superior force, and kept his own soldiers in place for a suicidal last stand of questionable military value. But what he unquestionably displayed in that doomed last stand, and what he was remembered for, was that pure unstinting courage in the face of impossible odds. Another comparison that might be more apt for Tolkein or the Rohirrim is King Arthur (legendary rather than historical, but still). King Arthur was certainly far from a perfect person or ruler, and his flaws and mistakes led directly to his own demise, yet still his courage in facing that demise led him to be remembered very positively.
I like to think of Rohan's attitude towards Helm as similar to the language of the Children of Tama from the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode Darmok. Their language is entirely metaphors. They say "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" for "cooperation" because they have historic figures named Darmok and Jalad who met at a place called Tanagra and joined forces to fight a dangerous beast. The people of Rohan shout Helm's name to say "yeah we're going to lose and we have no plan but we're fighting anyway because we don't bend, just like Helm."
To Helm's defense, there had long been strife between Rohan and the Dunland before that fateful fist fight. Obviously, Freca's marriage proposal was taken as an insult, so we can assume that Helm had reason to be insulted. Maybe he had good cause to hate the Dunlendings, or Freca in particular, or maybe he saw it as an effort to usurp power. Of course, his response might have been irrational. It was obviously impulsive. We don't know, because Tolkien doesn't provide us with detailed context. In any case, the Rohirrim don't seem to care who started it: they care who finished it, with fierceness and glory.
@hangebza6625 In my language Teleporno is considered a very old fashioned and boring name so i guess it's one of those weird geo-cultural things. But joking aside, in western English, the word 'helmet' is used in modern context, i.e "motorbike helmet." Whereas "helm" has a distinctly archaic slant to it and conjures up images of knights or warriors, so it is more interesting! Hope this clears things up a bit
As others have said, I think you're misreading Freca's "offer". He's trying to weasel his way into the royal family (not uncommon, but bold for someone who has actively opposed Helm's rule) and essentially saying he'll have Helm's daughter as a hostage. Helm tells him to watch himself, then Freca (in front of Helm's actual loyal supporters) says "You're old and weak, without my support you might not rule much longer" (it wasn't about a physical staff; even if there had been one involved, it was clearly about Freca's metaphorical political support). Helm gives him a shot to talk it out/duke it out one-on-one instead of playing the king card and having his other lords do it for him, as would have been well within his rights, to show he was still strong enough to rule and deal with overt threats. Freca overreached in a big way, not just above his station (also that) but more importantly above his ability, with an incredibly thinly-veiled threat and insult. Helm may not have had the most diplomatic response, but he protected his kingdom and his daughter.
It should also be noted he claimed royal blood, not just the blood of Rohan. Tolkien also said he paid little heed to Helm, and was rich and powerful. Makes sense Helm mistrust someone who was at best a willful lord who disrespected him or at worse was an enemy conspiring for his throne. The marriage proposal was likely seen as a play for the throne. Wolf marries in. Helm's sons are killed, openly or in secret, and he takes the throne, claiming a royal connection. Helm's reactionto the proposal was you're powerful but not enough to take the throne. It was an insult to be sure but all the other lords of Rohan laughed and Frecca likely saw that his plans were thwarted. In a rage he reviled Helm. Tolkien chose that word for a reason. He went beyond insult and was directly hostile. Finally he challenged Helm saying he was so old Frecca could make him submit. The push for the throne was laid bare and Helm settled the matter one on one. After killing Frecca, Helm chased all aligned with Frecca out. Wolf returned not just for revenge but for the throne. If it was about peace or settling the killing of his father. Wolf would have killed Helm in a challenge or in battle. But as soon as Helm left, Wolfe went and declared himself king. Marriage be damned. He didn't even try and take his bride and settle the matter. That would have brought an uneasy peace or placate some of the lords. Which having disposed of Helm from the capital, he well could have. But his intent was more malicious.
But that's the thing....Theoden never said it. THat's a Film only interpolation. After the king was crushed under Snowmane, and Eowyn & Merry slew the Witch-King, It was Eomer who cried "Death, Death, Death! Death take us all!" because he was overcome with rage and grief after he saw Eowyn's body on the battlefield, and thinking she was dead. "‘Éowyn, Éowyn!’ he cried at last. ‘Éowyn, how come you here? What madness or devilry is this? Death, death, death! Death take us all!’ Then without taking counsel or waiting for the approach of the men of the City, he spurred headlong back to the front of the great host, and blew a horn, and cried aloud for the onset. Over the field rang his clear voice calling: ‘Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world’s ending!’ And with that the host began to move. But the Rohirrim sang no more. 'Death!' they cried with one voice loud and terrible, and gathering speed like a great tide their battle swept about their fallen king and passed, roaring away southwards."
"He insulted a guest in his own house?" An enemy, eager to take over the land of his people showed up, and tried to threaten him to give her daughter over as a hostage. Helm stood up to him and stopped the plot, delaying the war by a few years.
A smarter more politically savvy king could have accepted the marriage while also keeping freca out of the picture in the powerstructure of rohan. This would have meant that Wulf could be integrated into the royal family of rohan without prospect of rule over the 2 male heirs that would come before helm's daughter. So now you'd have a powerful ally on your contested western border not only preventing civil war but also any last claim a dunlending kingdom would have over the region.
@@Groblinmode Thats not really smart, Rohans heirs have a tendency to get assasinated; so just setting him up for third in line is basically a death sentence for his two sons. Accept it, Freca was bent on overthrowing the Rohirrim rule and putting himselv there (justified from his point). The only way to avoid the war would be to hand over power and you can guess how that would have turned out for his clan.
I don't think I ever really understood Helm as a character until this video. He was pretty unique in Tolkien's world in that he was a hero, not because he won, but because he was without fear in the face of doom It was even a doom of his own making, as Rohan didn't need to fight this war. Helm sucked as a diplomat, but when all else was lost, the people looked to him for hope in their darkest hour.
I always had a soft spot for the Dunlendings after reading this and how the Numenorians cut down the forests where they resided. Seems like they were forced into an alliance with Saruman and other dark forces.
The numenoreans were bad, but what gondor and Rohan did to them was worse. They colonised the lands they already lived in very akin to cases we can see of that happening in the real world. Native Americans, Palestinians, Kurds, etc. It's an unjustifiable landgrab that held an important part in the hearts of the Dunlendings. Much like we can see in the real examples it's no surprise they resort to figures that are up to no good. They just wanted someone, anyone, to fight back.
So if it wasn't for Helm, Helm's deep may not have been Rohirims last stand against Saruman. Dunlendings could have been their allies instead with help of some good diplomacy.
I am glad i waited to watch the video till after the movie ... I saw "The War of Rohirrim" yesterday. And really like it! Can't wait till it is out on some streaming service or available to purchase ... And thanks for this story. Nice to know more about what Tolkien wrote about this event. The moviemaker did a good job! Hope they earn enough money to dare another story from the world of Tolkien!
Awesome video man! You're right, it is a very grim tale and not as nice sounding as some of the other pieces of lore you might find in Lord of the rings, but I think that's why I like it!
I can't wait to see the movie coming out soon and hearing your thoughts on how this story is told. It will be interesting how they portray Hammerhand's actions. At the least it will no doubt be a visually appealing animated movie.
I just found this channel and I love the series! It makes everything I wanted to know so comprehensive Do you have plans to make a video about Tom Bombadil??
The Rohirrim also hunted the Drúedain like animals for no reason other than they were primitive and kind of ugly, and they had a strong distrust and fear of the Elves of Lothlórien. I always got the feeling they were terrible neighbors to everyone except Gondor.
It could be that they felt ugly and primitive in the face of the Elves, which is why they distrusted them. Elves certainly were not above killing people that they considered ugly or primitive either. They hunted some of the first Dwarves, who they thought were more animalistic than sapient.
Helm reminds me of a young Robert Bartheon, strong warrior, handsome, charismatic (less victories though) but a terrible ruler if not somewhat idiotic, was he right to deal with Freca? Yes considering he seemed somewhat treacherous, was it right to deal with him the way he did? No, summarily executing a powerful vassal without even charges let alone a trial would worry all his other vassals and make them wary and somewhat disloyal of Helm. Then while he was right to seize all of Freca's family lands and assets so they couldn't justifiably rebel for the murder of their lord, however he failed to capture Freca's family or attempt to attack his assets on the other side of the river in Dunland leaving Freca's family enough resources that they could and did rightfully try and take vengeance and while Helm's family ultimately won the devastation Helm had unleashed upon Rohan took generations to recover. He was an unworthy king, maybe a decent soldier or commander, but general, politician, statesmen or king? A complete failure.
I never really considered the moral dimensions of the story. I think my failure is due to, for lack of a better term, hindsight, because the Dunlendings sided with Saruman in the War of the Ring and were therefore the "bad guys." I do think Helm overreacted, but Freca didn't do himself any favors with his manners.
I always heard the line was "now you face Helm, Dunlending, alone and unarmed, if Helm dislikes a crooked staff that's thrust upon him he breaks it!" And the legend of one punch man was born
Helm was a great, fearless warrior but a terrible king. A better ruler would have secured a peace without murdering Freca and inciting a war. I'm looking forward to seeing The War of the Rohirrim, should be interesting to see how anime interprets Middle Earth.
Helm doesn't strike me as a stereotypical king rather than a war lord or chieftain. It adds to Theodens arch that Rohan is a new kingdom that needs to be legitimized. Helm coulda helped that tho by not decking his guest in the face after calling him a certified big back that behavior set Rohan back a century at least
I have always seen this from the POV that the Dunlendings held Isengard without leave from the Kings. The Kings tried to "evict" them many times unsuccessfully. But the fact that Freca was tolerated at court doesn't mean Helm approved of his occupation of Isengard. And the suggestion that his son marry Helms daughter is essentially a bid for the Dunlendings to be in line for the kingship since in most instances in Tolkien's work it is a male that is in charge of a kingdom. So Freca suggested that his son effectively becomes Helm's heir, then when that doesn't work he openly threatens to remove Helm by force. Helm suggests that they "take it outside" as an obvious challenge to a duel. In the US there are many older movies where people who are threatening each other inside some kind of building (often a bar) challenge each other to "take it outside" obviously to fight. So IMO Freca should have been ready for a fight and simply failed.
dude, Freca came into Helm's house and tried to demand _his daughter and his kingdom_ being punched in the face soi hard he dies is pretty much what he had coming
I wonder if a part of the inspiration for Helm Hammerhand is Charles Martel, literally, "the Hammer". Neither were good men, but they won against the odds. They were both revered for taking on the enemy and persevering when no one else thought victory possible.
This is a weird way to phrase things. The Dunlendings were people that got murdered in droves for centuries I don't see why they would deserve it or be pests.
@@TheMarcHicks Turin at least recognised his own faults, or some of them at least, by the end. Helm is a bit like Feanor (though not as bad) in that he somehow has admirers. I hope those admirers are a better judge of people in real life.
Tolkien does more with gray characters than he gets credit for, I think. In Helm's case, though, I think it makes more sense when you look at the political subtext (as some of the other commenters have done) than when you take it at face value
@@meganofsherwood3665 it's just unfortunate how remarkably few there are in the main trilogy. Denethor is a great example of a grey main trilogy character though, at least if you read into his past a bit more.
The movie portrays the Horn of Helm Hammerhand as gigantic and built into and through the castle walls. Other times, the horn is portrayed as being portable or wieldable. Are there different versions?
@@LostHorizons0 Anime isn't the problem, although I think it is a bad medium for Middle Earth. The real problem is the writers bastardising Tolkien's work, just like with Rings of Power.
@@LostHorizons0 American animation is bad, the lines are too thick and has a real castlevania look to it and not in a good way. Just look at invincible for a good animated project
@@boufns8making an LotR anime is an obvious lame marketing ploy because anime is the “in” thing right now, and that’s clear from how terrible it looks. No different than any other awful “American anime,” a pale imitation of something better because American animation has lost all of its charm and appeal.
Having such a fragile ego that you insult and sucker punch to death the first person who calls you on your middling rule is beta behavior, certainly not heroic. Helm is better survived by Grima Wormtongue than by Theoden. The end of his line was the greatest gift his folly gave his people.
I can't wait to see the way Helms nameless daughter is better and more badass than him 😂 Here's hoping I'm wrong, but the War of the Rohirrim trailer looks very 'modern'
I very much like Lord of the Rings, and although I've disliked more anime than I've liked I still consider myself to have a soft spot for it. But this film is going to be a very hard sell for me. I just don't feel like the things that make Lord of the Rings great and the things that make anime good intermarry terribly well. Hopefully these low expectations will make me enjoy it more if and when I do watch it, but right now it is very hard to take it seriously.
Everyone knows about "Helm's deep" and "Helm's gate", of course we all know about "Helm's horn", and some even recall "Helm's dike"... Fun fact... What many don't know however, is that the Elves, Men, Orks, and even the one Dwarf that we know of that fought in the battle of Helm's deep all got together the day before and decided to wear "Helm ets" on their heads during the battle to honor Helm, because the battle itself happened 4 days before the 328th anniversary of Helm's birthday! It was a big party, lots of cakes, and pies, and beheadings... A real jolly occasion!! 🤔👀
This is Tolkien's version of Norse mythology and of Beowulf. The bravado and singular combat prowess of the hero are key to the character. Try to view him in at 17th century Enlightenment or post Enlightenment framework and you will fail to capture the appeal, as you have done.
I think acknowledging the Dunlendings strife before this fateful moment is important and enlightening to the historic position of Rohan in regard to their neighbours. Freca made an insulting demand, but perhaps a just one. A marriage could have eased dunlending and rohirric tensions and pacified the region. This would have profound consequences later in the third age, Sauron wouldn't have stood a chance against the combined forces of Gondor Rohan and Dunland.
@@OhioCruffler I don't think the context is particularly helpful to Helm, to be honest. His 'hardness' didn't exactly save Rohan - he merely succeeded in angering the Dunlendings, while leaving them in a position to strike a far more destructive blow in retaliation. A more flexible or farsighted man could perhaps have prevented an incredibly debilitating war, without compromising Rohan's security. Even if not, it's hard to see how things could have gone much worse, given that Gondor easily had the strength to wipe the floor with the invaders once the winter was over and the snows had thawed.
Whereas I do not know the demographics of your followers, it seems a bit humorous that anyone listening to a deep Tolkien channel in the middle of the week would be ignorant enough of Helm and (1) a warning was issued to avoid spoilers while (2) that those for whole a spoiler actually shared spoiling information would plan to go and see the upcoming animated movie! This is no insult at all. I love your channel and appreciated this character deep dive which differs from most.
I saw the this movie a few days ago and i don't know much about lord of the rings, i saw the movies years ago, but are there more characters as physically strong as helm hammerhand bro felt like an elden ring boss
Watched this having just seen War of the Rohirrim. The film supports the arguments of most comments here saying Freca was conspiring to take the throne and literally didn’t have the strength to support his challenge.
A mighty warrior? Certainly A wise king? Not really. Yes, he was provoked greatly but he was not cool-headed when he should have been and the resulting war was devastating for Rohan.
This is the most egregious misinterpretation of Tolkien I’ve seen in a while, and that’s saying something. Freca was not making a legitimate offer and was being rebellious and insulting to his superior. He was clearly being insulting and belittling to the king and his people.
People also don't understand how medieval kings had to behave. One could not ignore threats, even veiled ones. Freca's demand of marriage for his son was nothing short of a cowardly declaration of his intent to rule Rohan through their children. If Helm had responded with any less force he would have lost the support of many of his more loyal subjects.
In Rohirric (=Old English) "helm" means "helmet" as well, but also "protection, defense" in general and even "protector, lord". I assume the name Helm comes from the last meaning of the word.
Calling Helm a 'villain' is nothing short of turning the world on its head. Did he have his flaws? Absolutely. He wasn't diplomatic or 'Kingly' in a way we think of, or even like Aragorn. There is something grim, even brutal about him. However, at absolute worst, the stuff he did was pretty typical feudal monarch shtick. Freca tried to scheme his son, or at least grandson, onto the throne of Rohan. He had the poor sense to try that with a King with zero patience for that sort of thing. Also, Freca was clearly unpopular among the nobles, not just with the King. And supporting the King, even in feudalism, is not, in fact, optional. It is part of the deal - the 'foedus' from which 'feudal' derives. Helm mockingly shooting the proposal down actually might be his way of firing a warning shot. Freca, understandably but unwisely giving in to anger, responded by challenging Helm... and Helm's temper couldn't take that. This should have been well known. Helm was not the greatest King... but he did lead Rohan through its darkest hour. He saved Rohan, not by winning, but by holding on. He was a great warrior, a hero who lead by example and an inspiration even centuries after his death.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
Ahh thank you. I finally know where Gondor was when the Westfold fell.
Me too 🤣 I was like damn why is theoden so mad about this, but they had their own war and if helm was a better diplomat that probably never happens
Where was Gon--!
I mean they turned up eventually, just like Rohan did in LOTR and they would have been "late" too if called earlier.
But I agree. I never knew any of the references to Hammerhand or the Westfield falling.
Something I think you've passed over is in Freca's "old" remark. The second half of that quote, "may fall on their knees", is a direct challenge to Helm's kingship, and can easily be construed as a declaration (or at least a threat) of a rebellion. With that in mind, a peaceful solution was likely never going to happen after Freca made that statement. That's why Helm declared war on Freca's entire family afterwards; Freca didn't just call the king "old" he threatened to overthrow the king himself.
He's too busy being self-righteous over his idea that Helm should have sold his daughter (and likely his kingdom at some point in the future) for "peace" with those that hated his family, his nation, and his people.
@@RaynmanPlays I have a lot of experience with self-righteous people, and I've learned that those who call others self-righteous are usually self-righteous themselves.
I think you've actually misunderstood IDG's position on the matter, I don't have the time to break down my observations on his remarks and beliefs, but I do recommend that you re-watch the video and listen for an alternative to your first reaction.
Thanks for pointing this out. It's been a long time since I read the exchange in question, but when listening to this video I remember thinking "wait a sec, it didn't quite come off that way to me when I read it" You've reminded me why! Cheers :)
@@hopefulpellinore5490 :)
@@RaynmanPlaysidk if this is what IDG meant but the sentiment you’re coming from is based
Freca was definitely not talking about a literal staff. He was calling Helm old and frail and that he would need to lean on freca for support.
You forgot the part where Freca brought a company of _several dozen armed men_ to the council at Edoras where he proposed the marriage of his son, Wulf, to Helm's daughter.
Freca’s arrival with a small army of armed men was a threat. Helm made it clear that while his men may be a threat, Freca himself was not.
A self-righteous hothead who thinks more of being thought fearless than of advancing his kingdom.
Seems quite standard for a lord to travel with his household retinue. I thought they were still outnumbered
@@Crafty_Spirit Very much so. Notice that no one tried to stop them leaving, either.
@mojrimibnharb4584 Wonder whether they transported Freca's body
@@Crafty_Spirit Interesting question.
Thanks for the video Robert. I think you missed something in Freca’s interaction with Helm. He didn’t just insult the king, he threatened him. “If you reject my offer you might not be king much longer.” That’s borderline treasonous, and Freca was bold enough to do that in front of Helm’s council. Insulting him was just a bonus. Could Helm have handled it differently or better? Maybe, but Freca was definitely out of line and making a play for power.
The war was inevitable. He was not a saint, but Helm was threatened in his own household. He was an experienced ruler, who foreseen Freca's plot.
Vlad "the Impaler" Tepes is considered a monster in human skin, but he also defended his realm against invasion from the hostile empire.
The whole Freca story shows Helm being RESTRAINED. It's no secret that Freca's loyalties/interests are divided between Rohan and their traditional enemies so he's already a shady character as far as Helm should be concerned, but he doesn't critisize Freca for missing most of the meetings that he should by rights come to as a vassal, he doesn't get angry when it turns out Freca only came to this meeting to benefit himself and his family (arrogantly expecting to easily get his way) but fobs it off with a joke instead, and when Freca threatens him in the middle of the meeting in front of everyone (treason), Helm annouces he considers it a joke rather than having Freca punished, or even just allowing loyal vassals to do it for him. Even the final confrontation between the two is Helm setting the advantages of his kingship aside to deal with Freca one-on-one and Freca is so weak he can't take it.
I mean...I don't know if that was Freca being weak or the strength of Helm's fist, but you make really good points on the rest of it!
@@meganofsherwood3665 It's a bit of both ;) Freca's mouth wrote checks his head couldn't cash.
@@laser8389but his armies checked them no problem
"The horn of Helm Hammerhand shall sound in the deep one last time. Let this be the hour when we draw swords together. Fell deeds awake. Now for wrath, now for ruin, and the red dawn!"
Ive always felt terrible about what happened to the Dunlendings, their land got stolen, people mass murdered and then they were seduced by saruman.
The dunlendings mind you were never evil, they fought misty mountains orcs all the same, helped the dwarves when they fled Erebor and only fought Rohan for a very understandable reason.
But still many critics say that Tolkien's world lacks moral ambiguity...
Yea dunlendins seem to have been done dirty feel a little bit wonder if they were symbolic of the Germans a country that was mistreated then maid evil by a dictator that ensnares them.
@@Adam-ne7qc i think it's fair to say that the primary stories told by Tolkien lack moral ambiguity, the world certainly doesn't though.
I think your analysis is almost always excellent and you have changed my mind on several topics, but I think you misunderstand the inciting incident.
Freca is an important man, but he is claiming more significance than his situation warrants. The claims to descent from the royal house underlines this. His marriage proposal is an attempt to insinuate himself into the royal family, possibly so his son can claim the throne later. His comment about the staff is saying, essentially: you need my support to maintain your throne, so you better give me what I want.
Helm's reaction is, of course, impulsive and imprudent: he's no diplomat. Declaring Freca's family outlaw IS prudent and even necessary: both Dunlendings and the Rohirrim have the feuding culture and, doubtless, Wulf will seek vengeance for his father's death.
Once Helm struck Freca, the course of events were set. I see Helm as a grey character, neither good nor evil. The rest of your exploration was, however, on point, as usual.
IDG is wrong. Specifically, IDG is _modern,_ but the Rohirrim were anything but. Thus, their morality was substantively different from ours.
@@RonJohn63I'll have you know, IDG lives / lived 11400 years ago, amidst the Younger Dryas period. He buried a thousand thousand manuscripts for these videos, each concluding with a week-long scavenger hunt for the next scroll. He is NOT modern. Even for back then he's a bit stuffy
It was no insinuation to get into the Royal family, it was a direct request and one made publically. I'm thinking that Freca's suggestion was insulting to Helm, Freca's gall to state that their two families were on equal footing. Helm obviously had no intention that his Daughter should "marry down" to what was basically the son of a Cheiftain.
@@matthewronsson Pretty much. I may have said it less forcefully, but that's the essence.
Since this channel is all about "nerdy detail", I shall indulge a bit.
Freca's Fat-
In Northern Europe, food was often a zero sum game: if someone is fat, that means that someone else has gone short. Hence, in the sagas, describing someone as "fat" was code that they were greedy, particularly either callously or maliciously. Helm's comment about Freca's weight is a reference to this.
Freca's Staff-
There's another conversation about a staff in Tolkien, and it happens in Medusheld also: when Hana tries to take Gandalf's staff. Gandalf says, would you take an old man's staff, that he leans upon? Freca is offering a metaphorical staff to Helm: he's offering political support and implying that Helm is too old. Helm's response is appropo: "When a crooked staff is thrust upon me.." In other words, you are offering support to me for your own ends, and threatening me by implying that I need that support.
Freca's Claims-
Freca claims to have royal blood. This, combined with a royal marriage, might give him the legitimacy to claim the throne himself, or for his son to do so. Claiming that Helm needs his support undermines Helm while bolstering his own claim.
The political subtext becomes clear: Freca hopes that he or his descendants will hold the throne. Helm HAS to put him in his place. I don't think Helm intended to kill him: he pulled him aside, and had his men keep Freca's men away. I think he wanted to knock foolish ideas out of Freca before the greedy, overbearing chieftain started civil strife.
But, the blow killed Freca after a while; we don't know how long, or if he made it home first. Probably caused some nasty internal bleeding. But, with the death of Freca, Wulf now must declare a blood feud against Helm (at least half the sagas are about blood feuds). Civil War is certain.
The film definitely portrayed him more likeable. The film definitely stayed very close to the original material. For the most part, it simply filled in gaps that could be reasonably lost to history. I think the biggest departure the source material was the second son being killed before reaching the helm deep. Even the story's of Helm eating those he defeated was addressed. It was technically a small group of orcs who raided their mass grave in the secret of night, but the enemy soldiers never knew it was orcs and attributed it to Helm thus give birth to that particular legend.
The addition of orcs did serve as an reasonable narrative to explain the rumours that Helm eating people out of madness.
You failed to mention that they were fighting dunlendings as well as orcs, so calling on helm was a way to frighten their enemies who would remember that legend.
As for the reasons the Rohirrim revere Helm the way they do, an apt comparison might be to the Spartan king Leonidas. We have no idea what kind of king Leonidas was prior to Thermopylae (plus what powers he actually had - the Spartan political system was pretty complex). His strategic decisions surrounding Thermopylae had some merit, but in the end he did allow himself to get outflanked by a far superior force, and kept his own soldiers in place for a suicidal last stand of questionable military value. But what he unquestionably displayed in that doomed last stand, and what he was remembered for, was that pure unstinting courage in the face of impossible odds.
Another comparison that might be more apt for Tolkein or the Rohirrim is King Arthur (legendary rather than historical, but still). King Arthur was certainly far from a perfect person or ruler, and his flaws and mistakes led directly to his own demise, yet still his courage in facing that demise led him to be remembered very positively.
I like to think of Rohan's attitude towards Helm as similar to the language of the Children of Tama from the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode Darmok. Their language is entirely metaphors. They say "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" for "cooperation" because they have historic figures named Darmok and Jalad who met at a place called Tanagra and joined forces to fight a dangerous beast. The people of Rohan shout Helm's name to say "yeah we're going to lose and we have no plan but we're fighting anyway because we don't bend, just like Helm."
@ricknose Great reference! One of my favorite episodes! Dathon and Picard at El-Adrel.
To Helm's defense, there had long been strife between Rohan and the Dunland before that fateful fist fight. Obviously, Freca's marriage proposal was taken as an insult, so we can assume that Helm had reason to be insulted. Maybe he had good cause to hate the Dunlendings, or Freca in particular, or maybe he saw it as an effort to usurp power. Of course, his response might have been irrational. It was obviously impulsive. We don't know, because Tolkien doesn't provide us with detailed context. In any case, the Rohirrim don't seem to care who started it: they care who finished it, with fierceness and glory.
Except that they were also known to intermarry. It's similar to the situation between the Fomorians and Tuatha de Danann.
Helm is a really cool name.
Not really. In my language its just helmet or hat. Nothing impressive sounding. Teleporno on the other hand... :D
@hangebza6625 In my language Teleporno is considered a very old fashioned and boring name so i guess it's one of those weird geo-cultural things.
But joking aside, in western English, the word 'helmet' is used in modern context, i.e "motorbike helmet." Whereas "helm" has a distinctly archaic slant to it and conjures up images of knights or warriors, so it is more interesting! Hope this clears things up a bit
I'd love to see more content like this, a really interesting video.
As others have said, I think you're misreading Freca's "offer". He's trying to weasel his way into the royal family (not uncommon, but bold for someone who has actively opposed Helm's rule) and essentially saying he'll have Helm's daughter as a hostage. Helm tells him to watch himself, then Freca (in front of Helm's actual loyal supporters) says "You're old and weak, without my support you might not rule much longer" (it wasn't about a physical staff; even if there had been one involved, it was clearly about Freca's metaphorical political support). Helm gives him a shot to talk it out/duke it out one-on-one instead of playing the king card and having his other lords do it for him, as would have been well within his rights, to show he was still strong enough to rule and deal with overt threats.
Freca overreached in a big way, not just above his station (also that) but more importantly above his ability, with an incredibly thinly-veiled threat and insult. Helm may not have had the most diplomatic response, but he protected his kingdom and his daughter.
Sounds like Wulf was in the right.
It should also be noted he claimed royal blood, not just the blood of Rohan. Tolkien also said he paid little heed to Helm, and was rich and powerful. Makes sense Helm mistrust someone who was at best a willful lord who disrespected him or at worse was an enemy conspiring for his throne. The marriage proposal was likely seen as a play for the throne. Wolf marries in. Helm's sons are killed, openly or in secret, and he takes the throne, claiming a royal connection.
Helm's reactionto the proposal was you're powerful but not enough to take the throne. It was an insult to be sure but all the other lords of Rohan laughed and Frecca likely saw that his plans were thwarted. In a rage he reviled Helm. Tolkien chose that word for a reason. He went beyond insult and was directly hostile. Finally he challenged Helm saying he was so old Frecca could make him submit. The push for the throne was laid bare and Helm settled the matter one on one.
After killing Frecca, Helm chased all aligned with Frecca out. Wolf returned not just for revenge but for the throne. If it was about peace or settling the killing of his father. Wolf would have killed Helm in a challenge or in battle. But as soon as Helm left, Wolfe went and declared himself king. Marriage be damned. He didn't even try and take his bride and settle the matter. That would have brought an uneasy peace or placate some of the lords. Which having disposed of Helm from the capital, he well could have. But his intent was more malicious.
When you remember that Theoden himself cried out for Death at the Pelinor Fields, you understand why the Rohirrim venerate Helm.
But that's the thing....Theoden never said it. THat's a Film only interpolation.
After the king was crushed under Snowmane, and Eowyn & Merry slew the Witch-King, It was Eomer who cried "Death, Death, Death! Death take us all!" because he was overcome with rage and grief after he saw Eowyn's body on the battlefield, and thinking she was dead.
"‘Éowyn, Éowyn!’ he cried at last. ‘Éowyn, how come you here? What madness or devilry is this? Death, death, death! Death take us all!’
Then without taking counsel or waiting for the approach of the men of the City, he spurred headlong back to the front of the great host, and blew a horn, and cried aloud for the onset. Over the field rang his clear voice calling: ‘Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world’s ending!’
And with that the host began to move. But the Rohirrim sang no more. 'Death!' they cried with one voice loud and terrible, and gathering speed like a great tide their battle swept about their fallen king and passed, roaring away southwards."
The proffered staff is metaphorical.
"He insulted a guest in his own house?" An enemy, eager to take over the land of his people showed up, and tried to threaten him to give her daughter over as a hostage. Helm stood up to him and stopped the plot, delaying the war by a few years.
Quite the opposite.
A smarter more politically savvy king could have accepted the marriage while also keeping freca out of the picture in the powerstructure of rohan.
This would have meant that Wulf could be integrated into the royal family of rohan without prospect of rule over the 2 male heirs that would come before helm's daughter.
So now you'd have a powerful ally on your contested western border not only preventing civil war but also any last claim a dunlending kingdom would have over the region.
@@Groblinmode 🔔🔔🔔🔔
@@Groblinmode That's an optimistic take.
@@Groblinmode Thats not really smart, Rohans heirs have a tendency to get assasinated; so just setting him up for third in line is basically a death sentence for his two sons. Accept it, Freca was bent on overthrowing the Rohirrim rule and putting himselv there (justified from his point). The only way to avoid the war would be to hand over power and you can guess how that would have turned out for his clan.
What about Helm Hammerhead? A king with a man’s body and a sharks head
🙄
That’s definitely not what my Google search is showing me!
Shark's brain.
I don't think I ever really understood Helm as a character until this video. He was pretty unique in Tolkien's world in that he was a hero, not because he won, but because he was without fear in the face of doom It was even a doom of his own making, as Rohan didn't need to fight this war. Helm sucked as a diplomat, but when all else was lost, the people looked to him for hope in their darkest hour.
I always had a soft spot for the Dunlendings after reading this and how the Numenorians cut down the forests where they resided. Seems like they were forced into an alliance with Saruman and other dark forces.
They were forced into nothing by that point in the third age. They had a choice and they made it - a war of vengeance and old hatred
"They cut down some trees thousands of years ago, so really we had no choice but to embrace literally Satan."
Fantastic reasoning.
The numenoreans were bad, but what gondor and Rohan did to them was worse.
They colonised the lands they already lived in very akin to cases we can see of that happening in the real world.
Native Americans, Palestinians, Kurds, etc.
It's an unjustifiable landgrab that held an important part in the hearts of the Dunlendings.
Much like we can see in the real examples it's no surprise they resort to figures that are up to no good. They just wanted someone, anyone, to fight back.
@@GroblinmodeNo.
Thank you, Robert. Great video as always.
All I know about Helm Hammerhand is that he "built" Helm's Deep and successfully defended it, so this should be enlightening.
It’s in the appendices in return of the king more info on all this stuff
He didnt build Helms deep, Numenorians did :)
@@deanwerny1the númenorians built Hornburg, Helms deep is the name of the Gorge that the fortress is built in
I'm loving this series of vids, they're extremely informative.
So if it wasn't for Helm, Helm's deep may not have been Rohirims last stand against Saruman. Dunlendings could have been their allies instead with help of some good diplomacy.
This is in deep Greek at its best!!!
I am glad i waited to watch the video till after the movie ... I saw "The War of Rohirrim" yesterday. And really like it! Can't wait till it is out on some streaming service or available to purchase ... And thanks for this story. Nice to know more about what Tolkien wrote about this event. The moviemaker did a good job! Hope they earn enough money to dare another story from the world of Tolkien!
Thanks for the history lesson, you do it really well
Thanks for another great production. 🙂
Thanks so much for making these! I enjoy them so much!!
Awesome video man! You're right, it is a very grim tale and not as nice sounding as some of the other pieces of lore you might find in Lord of the rings, but I think that's why I like it!
Great character study. I’m looking forward to seeing War of the Rohirrim this coming Friday
Very nice detailed video essay
I can't wait to see the movie coming out soon and hearing your thoughts on how this story is told. It will be interesting how they portray Hammerhand's actions. At the least it will no doubt be a visually appealing animated movie.
I just found this channel and I love the series! It makes everything I wanted to know so comprehensive
Do you have plans to make a video about Tom Bombadil??
I think he made one or only a few months ago. You might be able to find it in his channel's video list. Hope you enjoy it!
Great video as always
The Rohirrim also hunted the Drúedain like animals for no reason other than they were primitive and kind of ugly, and they had a strong distrust and fear of the Elves of Lothlórien. I always got the feeling they were terrible neighbors to everyone except Gondor.
It could be that they felt ugly and primitive in the face of the Elves, which is why they distrusted them. Elves certainly were not above killing people that they considered ugly or primitive either. They hunted some of the first Dwarves, who they thought were more animalistic than sapient.
Courage without wisdom is just a chihuahua yapping at a wolf.
As a big fan of Rohan and the Rohirrim, #1 Eorl, #2 Helm #3 Théoden. Preserving a people's independence at any cost is worthy of great respect.
I like the way you say "mountain"... it always sounds to me like you're saying "meowtain".... as if a cat would say it 🥰
Helm reminds me of a young Robert Bartheon, strong warrior, handsome, charismatic (less victories though) but a terrible ruler if not somewhat idiotic, was he right to deal with Freca? Yes considering he seemed somewhat treacherous, was it right to deal with him the way he did? No, summarily executing a powerful vassal without even charges let alone a trial would worry all his other vassals and make them wary and somewhat disloyal of Helm. Then while he was right to seize all of Freca's family lands and assets so they couldn't justifiably rebel for the murder of their lord, however he failed to capture Freca's family or attempt to attack his assets on the other side of the river in Dunland leaving Freca's family enough resources that they could and did rightfully try and take vengeance and while Helm's family ultimately won the devastation Helm had unleashed upon Rohan took generations to recover. He was an unworthy king, maybe a decent soldier or commander, but general, politician, statesmen or king? A complete failure.
I never really considered the moral dimensions of the story. I think my failure is due to, for lack of a better term, hindsight, because the Dunlendings sided with Saruman in the War of the Ring and were therefore the "bad guys." I do think Helm overreacted, but Freca didn't do himself any favors with his manners.
He was a true Nord living amongst Imperials. ;)
He's just very dangerous. Like Treebeard, of Gimli (in his own way).
I always heard the line was "now you face Helm, Dunlending, alone and unarmed, if Helm dislikes a crooked staff that's thrust upon him he breaks it!" And the legend of one punch man was born
Good warriors do not always make good kings.
Helm was a great, fearless warrior but a terrible king. A better ruler would have secured a peace without murdering Freca and inciting a war.
I'm looking forward to seeing The War of the Rohirrim, should be interesting to see how anime interprets Middle Earth.
Helm doesn't strike me as a stereotypical king rather than a war lord or chieftain. It adds to Theodens arch that Rohan is a new kingdom that needs to be legitimized. Helm coulda helped that tho by not decking his guest in the face after calling him a certified big back that behavior set Rohan back a century at least
Nice Video :)
I have always seen this from the POV that the Dunlendings held Isengard without leave from the Kings. The Kings tried to "evict" them many times unsuccessfully. But the fact that Freca was tolerated at court doesn't mean Helm approved of his occupation of Isengard. And the suggestion that his son marry Helms daughter is essentially a bid for the Dunlendings to be in line for the kingship since in most instances in Tolkien's work it is a male that is in charge of a kingdom. So Freca suggested that his son effectively becomes Helm's heir, then when that doesn't work he openly threatens to remove Helm by force. Helm suggests that they "take it outside" as an obvious challenge to a duel. In the US there are many older movies where people who are threatening each other inside some kind of building (often a bar) challenge each other to "take it outside" obviously to fight. So IMO Freca should have been ready for a fight and simply failed.
dude, Freca came into Helm's house and tried to demand _his daughter and his kingdom_ being punched in the face soi hard he dies is pretty much what he had coming
Moral bankruptcy ☝️
Marriage is how feudal states sign treaties.
Wow, more reasons to despise Rohan
I wonder if a part of the inspiration for Helm Hammerhand is Charles Martel, literally, "the Hammer". Neither were good men, but they won against the odds. They were both revered for taking on the enemy and persevering when no one else thought victory possible.
My dream is Robert to do a deep geek analysis of his into the Warhammer universe
Great warrior, blockheaded king
He was a hero. Not a really succesful one, but one. Rohan needed to get rid of pests.
This is a weird way to phrase things. The Dunlendings were people that got murdered in droves for centuries I don't see why they would deserve it or be pests.
Helm the GOAT
Well put. And thank you. I, too, have found Helm (and a few other vaunted heroes of the Legendarium) less than perfect.
Turin is another that comes to mind.
@@TheMarcHicks Turin at least recognised his own faults, or some of them at least, by the end. Helm is a bit like Feanor (though not as bad) in that he somehow has admirers. I hope those admirers are a better judge of people in real life.
Tolkien does more with gray characters than he gets credit for, I think.
In Helm's case, though, I think it makes more sense when you look at the political subtext (as some of the other commenters have done) than when you take it at face value
@@meganofsherwood3665 it's just unfortunate how remarkably few there are in the main trilogy.
Denethor is a great example of a grey main trilogy character though, at least if you read into his past a bit more.
Love the myth of helm hammer hand very much like the myth of the sleeping king that is throughout European mythology.
What's happened to the Sam Gamgee character study? I can't seem to find it any more.
Thanks I didn't know his story.👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
🌟🎄⛄🍭🍬🎆
I can see some parallels with Robert Baratheon, the hero isn't always a great king
The movie portrays the Horn of Helm Hammerhand as gigantic and built into and through the castle walls. Other times, the horn is portrayed as being portable or wieldable. Are there different versions?
This movie wouldn’t leave such a bad taste in my mouth if they would just fire the entire marketing team
Anime sucks it just looks awful tbh
@@LostHorizons0 Anime isn't the problem, although I think it is a bad medium for Middle Earth.
The real problem is the writers bastardising Tolkien's work, just like with Rings of Power.
@@LostHorizons0 American animation is bad, the lines are too thick and has a real castlevania look to it and not in a good way. Just look at invincible for a good animated project
I’m lost, can someone explain?
@@boufns8making an LotR anime is an obvious lame marketing ploy because anime is the “in” thing right now, and that’s clear from how terrible it looks. No different than any other awful “American anime,” a pale imitation of something better because American animation has lost all of its charm and appeal.
Maybe not a pure hero, but certainly heroic.
Having such a fragile ego that you insult and sucker punch to death the first person who calls you on your middling rule is beta behavior, certainly not heroic.
Helm is better survived by Grima Wormtongue than by Theoden.
The end of his line was the greatest gift his folly gave his people.
I can't wait to see the way Helms nameless daughter is better and more badass than him 😂
Here's hoping I'm wrong, but the War of the Rohirrim trailer looks very 'modern'
I'll go with "Human".
I very much like Lord of the Rings, and although I've disliked more anime than I've liked I still consider myself to have a soft spot for it.
But this film is going to be a very hard sell for me. I just don't feel like the things that make Lord of the Rings great and the things that make anime good intermarry terribly well. Hopefully these low expectations will make me enjoy it more if and when I do watch it, but right now it is very hard to take it seriously.
Everyone knows about "Helm's deep" and "Helm's gate", of course we all know about "Helm's horn", and some even recall "Helm's dike"... Fun fact... What many don't know however, is that the Elves, Men, Orks, and even the one Dwarf that we know of that fought in the battle of Helm's deep all got together the day before and decided to wear "Helm ets" on their heads during the battle to honor Helm, because the battle itself happened 4 days before the 328th anniversary of Helm's birthday! It was a big party, lots of cakes, and pies, and beheadings... A real jolly occasion!! 🤔👀
Is this mentioned in the book LotR? I don't remember it.
Appendices.
Helm is a god in D&D (Forgotten Realms) too.
This is Tolkien's version of Norse mythology and of Beowulf. The bravado and singular combat prowess of the hero are key to the character. Try to view him in at 17th century Enlightenment or post Enlightenment framework and you will fail to capture the appeal, as you have done.
Helm was a hard man for a hard time. Context matters.
I think acknowledging the Dunlendings strife before this fateful moment is important and enlightening to the historic position of Rohan in regard to their neighbours.
Freca made an insulting demand, but perhaps a just one. A marriage could have eased dunlending and rohirric tensions and pacified the region. This would have profound consequences later in the third age, Sauron wouldn't have stood a chance against the combined forces of Gondor Rohan and Dunland.
@@OhioCruffler I don't think the context is particularly helpful to Helm, to be honest. His 'hardness' didn't exactly save Rohan - he merely succeeded in angering the Dunlendings, while leaving them in a position to strike a far more destructive blow in retaliation.
A more flexible or farsighted man could perhaps have prevented an incredibly debilitating war, without compromising Rohan's security. Even if not, it's hard to see how things could have gone much worse, given that Gondor easily had the strength to wipe the floor with the invaders once the winter was over and the snows had thawed.
@@Groblinmode Without The Ring being destroyed, Sauron would have wiped the floor of Gondor, Rohan, and Dunland combined. He was too powerful.
@@JackHankeAnd If only Neville Chamberlain had been there. They could have had peace in their time.
Whereas I do not know the demographics of your followers, it seems a bit humorous that anyone listening to a deep Tolkien channel in the middle of the week would be ignorant enough of Helm and (1) a warning was issued to avoid spoilers while (2) that those for whole a spoiler actually shared spoiling information would plan to go and see the upcoming animated movie!
This is no insult at all. I love your channel and appreciated this character deep dive which differs from most.
Helm definitely had an Scott Steiner moment
Whom
AND FRECA YOU OLD FU-
I saw the this movie a few days ago and i don't know much about lord of the rings, i saw the movies years ago, but are there more characters as physically strong as helm hammerhand bro felt like an elden ring boss
Rohan's hooligan king
I misremembered this guy as Hugh the Hammer (from FaB), realized my mistake, and now I’m watching this. Lol
Watched this having just seen War of the Rohirrim. The film supports the arguments of most comments here saying Freca was conspiring to take the throne and literally didn’t have the strength to support his challenge.
Don’t nobody care about Helm Hammerhand, tell us all about the real warrior hero of the story, his daughter!!
I know he probably has the most badass name in the entitity of the cannon🎉🎉🎉
Helm is not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy... 😀
Killing a guest just outside your hall seems deeply dishonorable, no matter if he was rude to you.
"Those with Orc blood"?! Were there just some Men going around with Orcish ancestry like that was no big deal?
A mighty warrior? Certainly
A wise king? Not really. Yes, he was provoked greatly but he was not cool-headed when he should have been and the resulting war was devastating for Rohan.
Thank you for this timely and a wonderful video.
It made my movie experience much more enjoyable ❤.
Thank you 😊
I think part(s) of Helm's story is missing. His motivation for starting a war with the Dunlandings seem incomplete.
Yea Frecas request was much more of a demand. A demand a noble from the adornland had absolutely no standing to make.
He didn't intend to start a war. Freca did.
This is the most egregious misinterpretation of Tolkien I’ve seen in a while, and that’s saying something. Freca was not making a legitimate offer and was being rebellious and insulting to his superior. He was clearly being insulting and belittling to the king and his people.
People also don't understand how medieval kings had to behave. One could not ignore threats, even veiled ones. Freca's demand of marriage for his son was nothing short of a cowardly declaration of his intent to rule Rohan through their children. If Helm had responded with any less force he would have lost the support of many of his more loyal subjects.
În German 'Helm' means helmet - sometimes a little confusing...
But the literal translation of Hammerhand means also Hammerhand. :)
In Rohirric (=Old English) "helm" means "helmet" as well, but also "protection, defense" in general and even "protector, lord". I assume the name Helm comes from the last meaning of the word.
He sounds like Hugh Hammer and Olf The White.
LOTR The War of Rohirims : 😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍
Calling Helm a 'villain' is nothing short of turning the world on its head. Did he have his flaws? Absolutely. He wasn't diplomatic or 'Kingly' in a way we think of, or even like Aragorn. There is something grim, even brutal about him. However, at absolute worst, the stuff he did was pretty typical feudal monarch shtick.
Freca tried to scheme his son, or at least grandson, onto the throne of Rohan. He had the poor sense to try that with a King with zero patience for that sort of thing. Also, Freca was clearly unpopular among the nobles, not just with the King. And supporting the King, even in feudalism, is not, in fact, optional. It is part of the deal - the 'foedus' from which 'feudal' derives.
Helm mockingly shooting the proposal down actually might be his way of firing a warning shot. Freca, understandably but unwisely giving in to anger, responded by challenging Helm... and Helm's temper couldn't take that. This should have been well known.
Helm was not the greatest King... but he did lead Rohan through its darkest hour. He saved Rohan, not by winning, but by holding on. He was a great warrior, a hero who lead by example and an inspiration even centuries after his death.
I D G !!!!!
Wouldn’t a “gift” of a staff be seen as an insult? As if Helm were old and feeble and needed a staff for support..?
One millimeter away from being Maegor.
Of course calling this place Rohan doesn't tell the whole story. The Riddermark is where Rohan and Helms Deep exists.