If artists got a cut of parking, concessions, alcohol, etc; then I think the venue could take a cut from merch sales at the venue. That said, no artist is getting any cut of those things that the venue supplies, so why should the venue get any cut of the sales in which the venue isnt providing anything at all for either, such as merch.
As an artist I really just want to thank all of you who aren’t artists but are music fans and genuinely care about the artists you listen to, like for real without you all of this would be pointless just thank you for having an open heart and appreciating the art and those that dream to create it
It's insane how difficult it has gotten to attempt to make any money as an artist to the point that I hope to see actual legal regulation regarding some of these behaviors. At a certain point if you do not have stream payout requirements by law, companies will try to get away with not paying. Touring will only improve if we have laws regarding venues not fucking over artists, because the practice of price gouging them into the yellow/red if they aren't managed by some bigger label is anti-trust behavior at this point. I'm not expecting that underground artists pull an Eras tour, I just want artists to see at least enough of a profit from their touring
@@technopriest8686they probably think it’s dirty cause most lobbyists are dirty, or at least the successful ones. While i agree with your premise and it’s intentions, i think the best (read: richest) lobbyists most likely aren’t going to be pro labor, and will side with those that can grant them the biggest payout, music corporations and the like. The power just isn’t balanced in artistic favor sadly
I agree. It’s frustrating when I see people say things like an artists/bands real profit comes from touring. It’s the perfect reaction for the meme “Well yes, but actually NO”. Anthony mentioned merch fees ranging 10%-20%, but Tank the Tech has mentioned hearing some venues going as high as 35%-40%! Hell, there’s even some venues that demand a cut up front on top of their merch cut for the night and lie that it’s in the contract, pressuring inexperienced touring artists to pay out. It’s sad because some of the biggest rock and metal artists of the last 15 years barely make anything on their music or touring. It’s the main reason why most of them end up promoting gear products, make their own gear companies, or become content creators, because that’s about the only way they can make money. It’s funny, I remember the Billy Corgan interview on JRE talking about how record companies back in the day basically told artists “You need us, we don’t need you.” Ironic being that record companies depend on the artists music to make them that money lol. Not only has that mentality not changed, it’s only gotten worse.
@@assata5174 honestly both lobbying and a union would have to occur. A union is important for internal support within an industry, but external support from policy makers and representatives is what would establish the laws that actually make predatory industry practices illegal. The main problem with either is the social alienation and atomization between all music artists. How do you organize millions of musicians across the globe when there isn't one particular institution they can target? The writers and actors had the advantage of targeting a central grouping of geographically locked and financially woven companies + there is the history of their work being understood as labor from a social and historical context. I'm struggling to see how the same can be achieved for Spotify when its content creators operate internationally at varying scales from small town to local to national to international fanbases. And lets be real: there is little to zero solidarity between the Jay Zs of the market and the MIKE or Little Sims types. Unlike the actors guild which has big players willing to stand up for a part-timer struggling to get healthcare. Perhaps its part of the culture for all commercial art, but especially for musicians ---it seems like a lot operate as competitors with one another. Sadly the streaming stuff only seems to engender that ...
The fact that there is a lack of protest similar to the writers strike over these issues happening in the music industry is very disappointing and frightening. Maybe it’s just wishful thinking on my own part.
The writer's strike involves an actual writer's union. If there were a comparable musicians union of similar membership and unity, then the same thing would be possible.
@@brendanang6570 Perhaps. I wouldn't know the start of it. Unions are about collective action and shared struggle in your work. So, absolutely, it is possible, as many musicians, big and small face issues regarding venues, sales cuts from their music, etc.
with any job that people like doing, the industry treats you as if having a fun job is the only reward that you need, and if you can be taken advantage of, you deserve to be. this is why actors have such a strong union, musicians need their own thing too.
yes. generally speaking, whatever the industry, you will find that the people who have the tolerance to sit around with a bunch of financial spreadsheets until 2am instead of doing doing the math, instead of having fun, they gonna make the money, because they are making the decisions about where it goes.
you just hit bullseye on the topic David Graeber discusses on "B*llshit Jobs" (that we act as if having an interesting job that's a net positive for society is enough and you don't need a decent pay). If you haven't, go read it, thank me later :D
im starting to get convinced that Suits and Execs who are seething with jealousy that someone can have a creative/imaginative idea in general, just want to make it as difficult as possible for anyone with an actual imagination to make money off of it
Their ideal reality is no creatives existing. They don't respect the art and think it's just "stuff" that anyone could produce, and the real "art" is in their ability to drain money from people who did all the work
that's far too exciting. they have spreadsheets with a column called something like "profit" and their job is to make the numbers there get higher. if they can do that by charging merch fees, fine. if they can do it another way, also fine. they'll just do both and make the profits go up even more.
@@JamesKovacic nah, its been predatory like that for a much longer time. just see what they did with black jazz and blues musicians in the first half of the 20th century. its unfortunate, but it isnt a downfall like you said. I wish it was, cause if it was then once it falls we can build someting better back up. no, its always been like that and always will (at least with capitalism as an economic system lol, but thats a whole other discussion).
@@RainFall2112yeah, exactly. Like I agree that pulling money from artists’ merch sales is wack, but the venues have to make money too, and they use those alcohol sales to cover an artists’ ridiculous guarantee, rider and whatever other hospitality shit they need. It’s not really profitable on either end when you’re looking at smaller clubs. Also, Anthony says fans would go see their favorite artist in an alley, which, sure. But your favorite artist sure as shit doesn’t want to play in that alley. They want green rooms and a good sound system
@@MarshallMathers3000It’s not the artists responsibility to make sure the venue is at its profits. Venues trying to accumulate cuts from merchandise sales is all in all completely wrong.
@@zezezezezezezezezezeze im not disagreeing with that. I’m saying it’s a symbiotic relationship. One can’t survive without the other, and neither side seems to be doing very well right now, for a lot of reasons external to their relationship
...who are these ppl trying to stop you? are they in the room with you right now? can you see them? oh so theres no one actually trying to stop you.....damn you really showed those ppl who arent trying to stop you that they cant stop you. well done.
makes me glad my local venue puts a lot of work into staying local. tickets are never over $25, normally $15, they've turned down working with livenation, let the acts do pretty much whatever they want (enough that the bassist for model/actriz was kind enough to sell me a cd for $5, shoutout)
Spotify and bandcamp: we want our platform to promote small artists and give them a fair chance. Also spotify and bandcamp: ok so we've made some changes/come under new management meaning we're giving you less exposure and little to no revenue.
Everyone wants to use musicians to make money off of, no one wants to get money to artists for their work. There are a myriad of services across the internet luring in young artists to use them and take their money with little return or value to the artist. Many venues don't pay at all or ask ridiculous things of the aritst like audience minim requirements before they start making money for playing the show - and then they take money off the merch. Honestly 98% or more of the music business is about exploiting artists and finding ways to make money off of other people's talent and draw.
Musicians have it the worst. They’re workers-for-hire who get paid pennies to create a product for labels to sell and reap the majority of rewards. Now they’re getting shaken down even more by venues? Smh
That’s true for most industries. Most artists fail so how do companies recoup? Same with books, chefs working in restaurants, computer engineers. It’s not the labels it’s the public that refuses to buy music.
I have such a disdain for many venues already. Have to pay for parking, have to deal with their garbage ticket provider, have to pay $5 for a water bottle. So greedy
Living in Aus I'm lucky to have seen the amazing artists I have so far but more and more international artists are curving our entire continent because of the spiraling costs of committing to a tour of this place. Our music industry is in decline, our once great cultural institution Triple J is on the back foot and the outlook for the next gen of Aussie acts is pretty bleak. With the world of music simultaneously becoming more oversaturated and less rewarding than ever we will see less talent break through and our own voices will be drowned out by content from the US, and that's just the situation I can speak on here.
Lemmy Kilmister told a story of Chuck Berry demanding a bag of cash ON TOP of the artist fee had been paid or else he wouldn't go on stage. I thought Berry was an asshole for that but it sounds like what we need to go back to.
Thank you so much @fantano for putting up this topic. I am working for a young and independent Orchestra in Germany. In Germany we have a lot of cultural financing through the state - which is awesome. But here is the thing: we played at the Berlin philharmonics this year and they wanted to make us pay 400€ fix PLUS 20% for sold merch products. So we decided not to sell anything there, because break even was very unlikely. I found this unbelievable because the philharmonics receive per year 7.5 Mio. € from the German government and 19.5 Mio € from Berlin (as a state). Why the hell do even those players have to milk young artists in such a way. WE did the DVD recordings, WE designed and produced the merch, WE are the staff that is selling these after the concerts. Btw the artist fee we received for the concert was also insanely low!
One of my favorite bands Slaughter Beach, Dog has a Patreon membership program. You can support them monthly, and get some extra exclusives like videos / unreleased tracks / QA sessions. Just monetizing in a way really similar to RUclipsrs or other non music creators do. I think it’s a great idea to avoid all this LiveNation bs
yeah but that is extra work that takes a toll on the artists' capacity to keep creating good work and put on good shows. musicians exist to make music and they should get paid for live and recorded music, not give away their music to get people to buy some random extra content
Might be alone in this, but I'm totally for venues earning 50% and more off merch. They just need to first buy it off the artists. No worries if they don't sell out.just hold on to the merch when the artists are back in town. ❤❤
I worked for one of the companies you mentioned and collecting merch cuts sucked sometimes. The cut is typically 80/20 PLUS we collect an 8% sales tax. Want a seller? $150. I definitely let a lot of smaller acts and openers haggle or not even collect. For most shows the merch money we collected was insignificant. The bar is how make the bulk of profits.
Few musicians will stand against these practices so im not shocked. There is no artist solidarity. No act should be selling merch at a show that has fees if the venue itself isn't running the booth. No one should be signing record contacts or 360 deals. No one should be paying to play or going into debt on tour, but everything is about self interest and not the greater good.
Or maybe they have bills to pay and take the short term option because they have no other option, you’re not as smart as you think you are, things are never that black and white
Wait what? No shit the musicians aren't taking a stand cause they can't do anything lol. The only artists with a lick of power are the huge ones who are being selfish, but most artists would do something if they could, but they can't. Why would you blame artists for shitty industry practices instituted by non-artists?
This sucks so much. My whole life I wanted to be an artist, but each time a year pass by I just feel that it gets more and more impossible. I'm still going to try to make music --- just as a way to prove to myself as well I am capable and can do something that I love, but it does feel bleak and hollow.
Bizarrely we seem to have a music industry that only generates money via artists hard work but has also managed to make the artist feel indebted to the industry that grew out of the people’s desire to see and hear touring artists. It really is quite incredible how it has been twisted, and now in an age where we had the means to be completely self sufficient, no need for labels and 360 deals and tour support loans etc etc the rug has been pulled again. Spotify could afford to lose money hand over fist for a reason.
Tour, tour, tour.....that's what you do if you're a musician. It used to be CDs, records, and merch plus paid promotions with radio stations. Not no more.
Depressing, shocking, but also unsurprising. Without concerted, organised, collective efforts to fight for what you have, and what you need, the powers that be will do what's most beneficial for them to do (in the short term, cos they only see the short term profit gain and don't care this way of doing things is literally unsustainable) - take it away from you. That goes for all workers and career musicians are no exception, and should not be treated as such.
if venues want a cut of merch sales, artists should get a cut of the bar sales. it's only fair, those people wouldn't have bought drinks if they weren't there to see the artist
The first time i was made aware of this was when the band Alpha Wolf made a statement about merch cuts at one of their shows. Glad to see some more awareness. Tank the Tech has also gone over this topic in much greater detail if you wanna check his stuff out
Adding to that, I worked in a venue in London for about 4 years, at the bar (pre Covid). The profit they made just by selling beer is huge. Like, I got paid about 7 pounds an hour, and some nights I sold more than 2.000 pounds (the max was 4.000). Now, asking for a cut from the artist is absolutely ridiculous. Some opening artists sometimes tour with the main band and don't have the same structure. There was a singer from Texas one night which was heartbreaking, he barely had cash for the flight ticket (we had a shot together- great fella).
Any other venue in any other situation would charge you a single flat fee to vend. It shouldn't be any different for an artist at a venue. It should be included with the booking price.
Live nation isn’t doing that all their venues but rather select venues and it only last a certain amount of time. They’re just using at for good PR and a tax break.
These venues percentage are utter bullshit! I'm a musician from Brazil, I've played in some South America and Europe countries and never ever had to share any of my merch stuff to the venues, this is pure US scam. The gig promoter pays for the venue and that's it! Period.
Most venues don’t make much to keep the lights on especially if they are independent. One thing left out is that livenation venues are practically monopolized in every major city for music consumption and are the main proprietors of this merch fee!
Music is a broken industry. Work in doesnt = payout and the people at the top are raking in absurd money and everyone else is lucky to be surviving off peanuts. A massive chunk of those at the top are just industry plants with marketing teams behind them with the budget to push their music everywhere. I would never try to make a career off music it's not fair at all
There's a local venue here that, ontop of a merch fee, they charge the audience membership fees to get in the door. So even if you bought a ticket, you can't watch the show until you also pay the $20 membership fee, that expires after 6 months
Merch veneus , promoters, visual artists etc etc etc. And people getting all pumped up because some random bedrrom music dude doesn t get his 50 bucks in the end of the year from spotify. I hope people focus in the real life changing stuff of music artists.
Some venues have tried to take 30% at times. When that happens we sell the merch on the sidewalk and put of the van, people love it Livenation is still shit.
Now I’m just wondering if this whole scheme by venues to take money directly from artists through merch sales, was an idea they just stole from conventions. Like an anime convention, Or technology convention, RUclipsr/Twitch convention, do these massive venues also take a massive percentage off of the merch sales of the many many artists, booths, hosts, and performers they have at these conventions? I imagine they would, so my conclusion with no basis in evidence is that these smaller venues simply saw the convention profit model and just stole from that, but didn’t bother putting in any amount of effort that might have made their theft of artists tolerable, such as all the ways conventions keep their guests on property. Not that I think there is any way for anyone to tolerate their theft, there isn’t. But you would think instead of going for the easy artist profit grab, these venues could go with the myriad of other ways conventions make lots and lots of profit.
Wtf? I’ve somehow never heard of this being done before, that is actually insane & infuriating, I can’t believe anyone ever agreed to such a dumb deal like that it makes no sense this is such an absurd capitalism moment. Imagine you’re the artist & after paying the merch manufacturer & the shipping fees & the guys that run the merch booth & the payment processing services & also paying TAXES on the sales, you lose ANOTHER chunk of profit for no good reason just because the venue feels entitled when you’re the one bringing them business. I hope more artists start refusing to play these greedy venues
The people who run the music business proving once again that they are there 100% for the business and 0% for the music. Also rich people in a suit willing to step on anyone to get just a little bit more.
perhaps non-artist vendors should be forced to give a % of revenue, but they have presumably paid to sell their wares at a show .. ticket prices are already outrageous to mainstream shows and ik many refuse to pay venue prices for alcohol... are we back at ticket master taking an unfair cut for sales?
Just saw something where Corey Taylor talked about tour profits and said they barely make much off of it was kind of surprising to me. Even freakin Slipknot has trouble with finances. Smh
I feel its honestly very risky for Jeff Rosenstock to tell on this publicly. I happy they did but fearful of venues blacklisting bands that tell. People in the music discussion bubble may be furious but the avarage person enjoying concerts andmusic won't know why Band X Y never plays their area because they tried to make a living. :( Music "buisness" is such a fucking scam.
tbh it would be better to not offer anything at the venue and have your own online merch only OR if you’re small enough just sell your shit somewhere else outside the venue and meet fans or something
or it would be cool if artists could offer a special ticket pricing that meant you pre pay for a shirt and then claim it at the door but ig that would be stolen from venue too damn
Just a few weeks ago the band TesseracT was bitching about how they should be allowed to dip into the merch counter's tips and got clowned on by all of metalcore twitter
Probably because when I went to see them, the line for intervals merch was 3 times longer and band members were signing records and such. TesseracT probably just wanted to make some extra cash off of Intervals great fan interaction and merch
May I suggest you an ( in my opinion) amazing artist but very little known ( no not a friend of mine) . His stage name is Pitta and the album is Be Free. Please could let me Know if you read this comment 🙂
Music and cinema are disappearing into a world of indifference more and more each day. And it is certain humans who have willing molded such hell for creatives who weren't born with a silver spoon in their rectums. If you don't have certain connections, you MIGHT have luck with ONE TikTok song going viral..... whatever....I don't care to finish this statement..I'm going to sleep. Such a cold world....for everyone....just keeps growing colder. Try to keep fighting out there guys.....whats the other option? NOT creating? Impossible for anyone who feels it In their souls. Just remember that there's a large chance that you will not be successful even WITH extraordinary measures of luck. A generation of Edgar Allen poes awaits you
Frankly we just need to have a union. We actually used to have one until the US decided that unions were evil and destroyed most of them within 30 years. Honestly I can see it happening though. Especially the US really has a huge movement with striking and unionizing, so it could be only a few years before we are actually provided protections
If artists got a cut of parking, concessions, alcohol, etc; then I think the venue could take a cut from merch sales at the venue. That said, no artist is getting any cut of those things that the venue supplies, so why should the venue get any cut of the sales in which the venue isnt providing anything at all for either, such as merch.
Fuck man thats going to be my response if a venue asks a cut of my merch
Soon artists are gonna need tip jars on stage to break even.
And then venues gonna take 20% because they "wouldn't have gotten those tips without them" lol
have you ever seen a live jazz band?
As an artist I really just want to thank all of you who aren’t artists but are music fans and genuinely care about the artists you listen to, like for real without you all of this would be pointless just thank you for having an open heart and appreciating the art and those that dream to create it
It's insane how difficult it has gotten to attempt to make any money as an artist to the point that I hope to see actual legal regulation regarding some of these behaviors. At a certain point if you do not have stream payout requirements by law, companies will try to get away with not paying. Touring will only improve if we have laws regarding venues not fucking over artists, because the practice of price gouging them into the yellow/red if they aren't managed by some bigger label is anti-trust behavior at this point. I'm not expecting that underground artists pull an Eras tour, I just want artists to see at least enough of a profit from their touring
Artists need a coalition of lobbyists to make this happen and lobbying is a dirty word for many creative types.
@@technopriest8686they probably think it’s dirty cause most lobbyists are dirty, or at least the successful ones. While i agree with your premise and it’s intentions, i think the best (read: richest) lobbyists most likely aren’t going to be pro labor, and will side with those that can grant them the biggest payout, music corporations and the like. The power just isn’t balanced in artistic favor sadly
I agree. It’s frustrating when I see people say things like an artists/bands real profit comes from touring. It’s the perfect reaction for the meme “Well yes, but actually NO”.
Anthony mentioned merch fees ranging 10%-20%, but Tank the Tech has mentioned hearing some venues going as high as 35%-40%! Hell, there’s even some venues that demand a cut up front on top of their merch cut for the night and lie that it’s in the contract, pressuring inexperienced touring artists to pay out.
It’s sad because some of the biggest rock and metal artists of the last 15 years barely make anything on their music or touring. It’s the main reason why most of them end up promoting gear products, make their own gear companies, or become content creators, because that’s about the only way they can make money.
It’s funny, I remember the Billy Corgan interview on JRE talking about how record companies back in the day basically told artists “You need us, we don’t need you.” Ironic being that record companies depend on the artists music to make them that money lol. Not only has that mentality not changed, it’s only gotten worse.
@@technopriest8686I think the correct term you’re referring to is a union/guild.
@@assata5174 honestly both lobbying and a union would have to occur. A union is important for internal support within an industry, but external support from policy makers and representatives is what would establish the laws that actually make predatory industry practices illegal. The main problem with either is the social alienation and atomization between all music artists. How do you organize millions of musicians across the globe when there isn't one particular institution they can target? The writers and actors had the advantage of targeting a central grouping of geographically locked and financially woven companies + there is the history of their work being understood as labor from a social and historical context. I'm struggling to see how the same can be achieved for Spotify when its content creators operate internationally at varying scales from small town to local to national to international fanbases. And lets be real: there is little to zero solidarity between the Jay Zs of the market and the MIKE or Little Sims types. Unlike the actors guild which has big players willing to stand up for a part-timer struggling to get healthcare. Perhaps its part of the culture for all commercial art, but especially for musicians ---it seems like a lot operate as competitors with one another. Sadly the streaming stuff only seems to engender that ...
The fact that there is a lack of protest similar to the writers strike over these issues happening in the music industry is very disappointing and frightening. Maybe it’s just wishful thinking on my own part.
The writer's strike involves an actual writer's union. If there were a comparable musicians union of similar membership and unity, then the same thing would be possible.
@@Dynamic_Editor do you think it is possible for such union to be formed? I’m not from the US, so I don’t know how this works
@@Dynamic_EditorAlso hey I recognize you from Brad streams lol
@@brendanang6570 Perhaps. I wouldn't know the start of it. Unions are about collective action and shared struggle in your work. So, absolutely, it is possible, as many musicians, big and small face issues regarding venues, sales cuts from their music, etc.
@@brendanang6570There has been one example, look up the American Federation of Musicians strike of 1942
with any job that people like doing, the industry treats you as if having a fun job is the only reward that you need, and if you can be taken advantage of, you deserve to be. this is why actors have such a strong union, musicians need their own thing too.
Well said
yes. generally speaking, whatever the industry, you will find that the people who have the tolerance to sit around with a bunch of financial spreadsheets until 2am instead of doing doing the math, instead of having fun, they gonna make the money, because they are making the decisions about where it goes.
you just hit bullseye on the topic David Graeber discusses on "B*llshit Jobs" (that we act as if having an interesting job that's a net positive for society is enough and you don't need a decent pay). If you haven't, go read it, thank me later :D
im starting to get convinced that Suits and Execs who are seething with jealousy that someone can have a creative/imaginative idea in general, just want to make it as difficult as possible for anyone with an actual imagination to make money off of it
Their ideal reality is no creatives existing. They don't respect the art and think it's just "stuff" that anyone could produce, and the real "art" is in their ability to drain money from people who did all the work
They wish all art was content they could fit into their monetization frameworks
that's far too exciting. they have spreadsheets with a column called something like "profit" and their job is to make the numbers there get higher. if they can do that by charging merch fees, fine. if they can do it another way, also fine. they'll just do both and make the profits go up even more.
I might be years late here, but "B*llshit Jobs" by David Graeber 100% supports that thesis :)
The music industry is really doing its everything to make it look like it hates music and musicians.
That's because it does lol
The industry response to Napster was the beginning of its downfall
@@JamesKovacic nah, its been predatory like that for a much longer time. just see what they did with black jazz and blues musicians in the first half of the 20th century. its unfortunate, but it isnt a downfall like you said. I wish it was, cause if it was then once it falls we can build someting better back up. no, its always been like that and always will (at least with capitalism as an economic system lol, but thats a whole other discussion).
If you're gonna charge $20 for a Dos Equis I feel like not extorting the artists is the least you could do lmao
You'd be surprised how unprofitable running clubs are. Many are even subsidized as hobbies by rich owners.
@@RainFall2112yeah, exactly. Like I agree that pulling money from artists’ merch sales is wack, but the venues have to make money too, and they use those alcohol sales to cover an artists’ ridiculous guarantee, rider and whatever other hospitality shit they need. It’s not really profitable on either end when you’re looking at smaller clubs.
Also, Anthony says fans would go see their favorite artist in an alley, which, sure. But your favorite artist sure as shit doesn’t want to play in that alley. They want green rooms and a good sound system
@@MarshallMathers3000It’s not the artists responsibility to make sure the venue is at its profits. Venues trying to accumulate cuts from merchandise sales is all in all completely wrong.
Literally this
@@zezezezezezezezezezeze im not disagreeing with that. I’m saying it’s a symbiotic relationship. One can’t survive without the other, and neither side seems to be doing very well right now, for a lot of reasons external to their relationship
I've decided to call the process of venues siphoning revenue away from artists "moochandising" and you can't stop me.
That's a great phrase
@@markshortall3384 moochandise I like that
Yeah you ate with that one
...who are these ppl trying to stop you? are they in the room with you right now? can you see them? oh so theres no one actually trying to stop you.....damn you really showed those ppl who arent trying to stop you that they cant stop you. well done.
It's actually called rent-seeking but moochandising is a good word too.
If venues are getting a cut of merch sales, then artists should get a cut of drink sales.
makes me glad my local venue puts a lot of work into staying local. tickets are never over $25, normally $15, they've turned down working with livenation, let the acts do pretty much whatever they want (enough that the bassist for model/actriz was kind enough to sell me a cd for $5, shoutout)
What venue?
Spotify and bandcamp: we want our platform to promote small artists and give them a fair chance.
Also spotify and bandcamp: ok so we've made some changes/come under new management meaning we're giving you less exposure and little to no revenue.
Everyone wants to use musicians to make money off of, no one wants to get money to artists for their work. There are a myriad of services across the internet luring in young artists to use them and take their money with little return or value to the artist. Many venues don't pay at all or ask ridiculous things of the aritst like audience minim requirements before they start making money for playing the show - and then they take money off the merch. Honestly 98% or more of the music business is about exploiting artists and finding ways to make money off of other people's talent and draw.
Not to mention that a lot of these services have ties to criminal gangs who view music as nothing but a very lucrative money laundering scheme
Wild how decades of "progress" has just looped around to a digitized version of artists getting screwed
Musicians have it the worst. They’re workers-for-hire who get paid pennies to create a product for labels to sell and reap the majority of rewards. Now they’re getting shaken down even more by venues? Smh
That’s true for most industries. Most artists fail so how do companies recoup? Same with books, chefs working in restaurants, computer engineers. It’s not the labels it’s the public that refuses to buy music.
I have such a disdain for many venues already. Have to pay for parking, have to deal with their garbage ticket provider, have to pay $5 for a water bottle. So greedy
Living in Aus I'm lucky to have seen the amazing artists I have so far but more and more international artists are curving our entire continent because of the spiraling costs of committing to a tour of this place.
Our music industry is in decline, our once great cultural institution Triple J is on the back foot and the outlook for the next gen of Aussie acts is pretty bleak.
With the world of music simultaneously becoming more oversaturated and less rewarding than ever we will see less talent break through and our own voices will be drowned out by content from the US, and that's just the situation I can speak on here.
Lemmy Kilmister told a story of Chuck Berry demanding a bag of cash ON TOP of the artist fee had been paid or else he wouldn't go on stage. I thought Berry was an asshole for that but it sounds like what we need to go back to.
Thank you so much @fantano for putting up this topic.
I am working for a young and independent Orchestra in Germany. In Germany we have a lot of cultural financing through the state - which is awesome. But here is the thing: we played at the Berlin philharmonics this year and they wanted to make us pay 400€ fix PLUS 20% for sold merch products. So we decided not to sell anything there, because break even was very unlikely.
I found this unbelievable because the philharmonics receive per year 7.5 Mio. € from the German government and 19.5 Mio € from Berlin (as a state). Why the hell do even those players have to milk young artists in such a way.
WE did the DVD recordings, WE designed and produced the merch, WE are the staff that is selling these after the concerts.
Btw the artist fee we received for the concert was also insanely low!
I wholeheartedly support artists saying "fuck that" to venue merch fees. It's the 21st century, we'll buy the merch on their websites.
some artists, especially openers for bigger artist literally only make money off their merch sales. this is insane
If they’re asking me for merch cuts, I’m asking for private parking cuts
Take the same % of their drink sales. it's only fair
One of my favorite bands Slaughter Beach, Dog has a Patreon membership program. You can support them monthly, and get some extra exclusives like videos / unreleased tracks / QA sessions. Just monetizing in a way really similar to RUclipsrs or other non music creators do. I think it’s a great idea to avoid all this LiveNation bs
yeah but that is extra work that takes a toll on the artists' capacity to keep creating good work and put on good shows. musicians exist to make music and they should get paid for live and recorded music, not give away their music to get people to buy some random extra content
i love slaughter beach dog! what's your favourite album by them?
Might be alone in this, but I'm totally for venues earning 50% and more off merch. They just need to first buy it off the artists. No worries if they don't sell out.just hold on to the merch when the artists are back in town. ❤❤
I worked for one of the companies you mentioned and collecting merch cuts sucked sometimes. The cut is typically 80/20 PLUS we collect an 8% sales tax. Want a seller? $150. I definitely let a lot of smaller acts and openers haggle or not even collect. For most shows the merch money we collected was insignificant. The bar is how make the bulk of profits.
BACKYARD CONCERTS GONNA MAKE A COMEBACK SOON!!
Music, movies, film, art, books, every form of creative is now being completely exploited. It's disgusting.
Few musicians will stand against these practices so im not shocked. There is no artist solidarity. No act should be selling merch at a show that has fees if the venue itself isn't running the booth. No one should be signing record contacts or 360 deals. No one should be paying to play or going into debt on tour, but everything is about self interest and not the greater good.
Or maybe they have bills to pay and take the short term option because they have no other option, you’re not as smart as you think you are, things are never that black and white
Wait what? No shit the musicians aren't taking a stand cause they can't do anything lol. The only artists with a lick of power are the huge ones who are being selfish, but most artists would do something if they could, but they can't. Why would you blame artists for shitty industry practices instituted by non-artists?
This sucks so much. My whole life I wanted to be an artist, but each time a year pass by I just feel that it gets more and more impossible. I'm still going to try to make music --- just as a way to prove to myself as well I am capable and can do something that I love, but it does feel bleak and hollow.
A purely voluntary musician's union. Problem solved. Said it to every artist I know years ago
Bizarrely we seem to have a music industry that only generates money via artists hard work but has also managed to make the artist feel indebted to the industry that grew out of the people’s desire to see and hear touring artists. It really is quite incredible how it has been twisted, and now in an age where we had the means to be completely self sufficient, no need for labels and 360 deals and tour support loans etc etc the rug has been pulled again. Spotify could afford to lose money hand over fist for a reason.
Sarah from Illuminati Hotties has been doing merch cut breakdowns of their last few shows, very illuminating (get it?)
Tour, tour, tour.....that's what you do if you're a musician. It used to be CDs, records, and merch plus paid promotions with radio stations. Not no more.
That doesn't even work with the ticketmaster monopoly. They suck up money from venues, venues take from merch sales, it's hopeless until that's fixed
@@BrofUJu No argument there. They still have to make a healthy proportion of money through touring to survive, though.
Depressing, shocking, but also unsurprising. Without concerted, organised, collective efforts to fight for what you have, and what you need, the powers that be will do what's most beneficial for them to do (in the short term, cos they only see the short term profit gain and don't care this way of doing things is literally unsustainable) - take it away from you. That goes for all workers and career musicians are no exception, and should not be treated as such.
if venues want a cut of merch sales, artists should get a cut of the bar sales. it's only fair, those people wouldn't have bought drinks if they weren't there to see the artist
The first time i was made aware of this was when the band Alpha Wolf made a statement about merch cuts at one of their shows. Glad to see some more awareness. Tank the Tech has also gone over this topic in much greater detail if you wanna check his stuff out
literally what are artist supposed to do. gonna start fucking tipping them and hopefully the venues dont catch on or theyll want 20% of that too
Adding to that, I worked in a venue in London for about 4 years, at the bar (pre Covid). The profit they made just by selling beer is huge. Like, I got paid about 7 pounds an hour, and some nights I sold more than 2.000 pounds (the max was 4.000). Now, asking for a cut from the artist is absolutely ridiculous. Some opening artists sometimes tour with the main band and don't have the same structure. There was a singer from Texas one night which was heartbreaking, he barely had cash for the flight ticket (we had a shot together- great fella).
I love your videos Anthony. They make my day everytime I watch em; never stop creating!
Any other venue in any other situation would charge you a single flat fee to vend. It shouldn't be any different for an artist at a venue. It should be included with the booking price.
I'd happilky give 15% if the venues were providing a merch table and someone to sell the merch, so I don't have to hire someone to do it.
MUSICIANS NEED TO UNIONIZE PERIOD
(spits morning coffee) VENUES ARE TAKING MERCH CUTS????????
You’re so much more chill then when you were straight
When it comes to the Movie industry and Music industry, music’s art is much greater but the money is we’re it’s at in acting and the movie industry.
Live nation isn’t doing that all their venues but rather select venues and it only last a certain amount of time. They’re just using at for good PR and a tax break.
Late Stage Capitalism at it again.
Yup.
Being an artist is already hard to make money but between Spotify, Bandcamp and now this it feels impossible. This really sucks man....
Thanks for speaking to the struggle. I know you are busy, even for a music nerd, but get some rest. We all need it.
These venues percentage are utter bullshit! I'm a musician from Brazil, I've played in some South America and Europe countries and never ever had to share any of my merch stuff to the venues, this is pure US scam. The gig promoter pays for the venue and that's it! Period.
Most venues don’t make much to keep the lights on especially if they are independent. One thing left out is that livenation venues are practically monopolized in every major city for music consumption and are the main proprietors of this merch fee!
Music is a broken industry. Work in doesnt = payout and the people at the top are raking in absurd money and everyone else is lucky to be surviving off peanuts. A massive chunk of those at the top are just industry plants with marketing teams behind them with the budget to push their music everywhere. I would never try to make a career off music it's not fair at all
There's a local venue here that, ontop of a merch fee, they charge the audience membership fees to get in the door. So even if you bought a ticket, you can't watch the show until you also pay the $20 membership fee, that expires after 6 months
Merch veneus , promoters, visual artists etc etc etc.
And people getting all pumped up because some random bedrrom music dude doesn t get his 50 bucks in the end of the year from spotify.
I hope people focus in the real life changing stuff of music artists.
Some venues have tried to take 30% at times. When that happens we sell the merch on the sidewalk and put of the van, people love it
Livenation is still shit.
Now I’m just wondering if this whole scheme by venues to take money directly from artists through merch sales, was an idea they just stole from conventions. Like an anime convention, Or technology convention, RUclipsr/Twitch convention, do these massive venues also take a massive percentage off of the merch sales of the many many artists, booths, hosts, and performers they have at these conventions? I imagine they would, so my conclusion with no basis in evidence is that these smaller venues simply saw the convention profit model and just stole from that, but didn’t bother putting in any amount of effort that might have made their theft of artists tolerable, such as all the ways conventions keep their guests on property. Not that I think there is any way for anyone to tolerate their theft, there isn’t. But you would think instead of going for the easy artist profit grab, these venues could go with the myriad of other ways conventions make lots and lots of profit.
Wtf? I’ve somehow never heard of this being done before, that is actually insane & infuriating, I can’t believe anyone ever agreed to such a dumb deal like that it makes no sense this is such an absurd capitalism moment. Imagine you’re the artist & after paying the merch manufacturer & the shipping fees & the guys that run the merch booth & the payment processing services & also paying TAXES on the sales, you lose ANOTHER chunk of profit for no good reason just because the venue feels entitled when you’re the one bringing them business. I hope more artists start refusing to play these greedy venues
The people who run the music business proving once again that they are there 100% for the business and 0% for the music. Also rich people in a suit willing to step on anyone to get just a little bit more.
perhaps non-artist vendors should be forced to give a % of revenue, but they have presumably paid to sell their wares at a show .. ticket prices are already outrageous to mainstream shows and ik many refuse to pay venue prices for alcohol... are we back at ticket master taking an unfair cut for sales?
Just saw something where Corey Taylor talked about tour profits and said they barely make much off of it was kind of surprising to me. Even freakin Slipknot has trouble with finances. Smh
very glad to hear you address this
I love the drunk tone in the beginning
They should give 20% of bar sales if they’re gonna ask for that much merch
This has been going on since Johnny didn't give Markey his share of the Ramones t shirt sales
I love that Alpha Wolf called out venues for taking 20% of their merch sales during a show.
I haven't watched the vid yet but that hoodie goes hard as fuck
I feel its honestly very risky for Jeff Rosenstock to tell on this publicly. I happy they did but fearful of venues blacklisting bands that tell.
People in the music discussion bubble may be furious but the avarage person enjoying concerts andmusic won't know why Band X Y never plays their area because they tried to make a living. :( Music "buisness" is such a fucking scam.
I like your shirt- where'd you get it?
Making it so only people with money can afford to do music as a career
Paid $28 for 2 drinks at a show last month. These venues don’t need merch sale percents.
the most that venues do to help sell the merch is have two people hand the merch out lmao. no way they should be taking 20 percent
tbh it would be better to not offer anything at the venue and have your own online merch only OR if you’re small enough just sell your shit somewhere else outside the venue and meet fans or something
or it would be cool if artists could offer a special ticket pricing that meant you pre pay for a shirt and then claim it at the door but ig that would be stolen from venue too
damn
God damn...never knew about that until now. Really leaning into making folks starving artists as much as possible.
That hoodie goes crazy
Strike against Spotify
I hope some venue owners hear your excellently worded argument 👏👏👏
The labor of artists is simply not valued unless you're like.. playing in a fucking stadium.
Just a few weeks ago the band TesseracT was bitching about how they should be allowed to dip into the merch counter's tips and got clowned on by all of metalcore twitter
Probably because when I went to see them, the line for intervals merch was 3 times longer and band members were signing records and such. TesseracT probably just wanted to make some extra cash off of Intervals great fan interaction and merch
that hoody is sick i had to watch the video twice - only saw hoodie at first lol
Every day we get closer to the Carole & Tuesday future
People should start throwing money at the stage instead of phones and stuff
this is nothing new. There was a joke about it in the 1986 Tom Hanks film, Money Pit.
Rocking that Teddy Fresh represent!!!
Sweden should nationalize Spotify
That would be so sexy
Too bad this will never happen, as both our government and our media have been completely austerity-pilled since the 2008 financial crisis
@@UnfortunatelyTheHunger that is fucking sad
Flower-ty Hoodie-tano, internet's most flamboyant music nerd.
Money ruins everything
Wow life not fair. Who would have thought
The fundamental issue is someone else being able to claim the fruits of another’s labor by virtue of simply owning capital.
May I suggest you an ( in my opinion) amazing artist but very little known ( no not a friend of mine) . His stage name is Pitta and the album is Be Free. Please could let me Know if you read this comment 🙂
That hoodie is fresh as HELL
Hi how's it going watching from Broomfield Colorado
Why can't I find that hoody on Teddy fresh? I NEED it
Music and cinema are disappearing into a world of indifference more and more each day. And it is certain humans who have willing molded such hell for creatives who weren't born with a silver spoon in their rectums. If you don't have certain connections, you MIGHT have luck with ONE TikTok song going viral..... whatever....I don't care to finish this statement..I'm going to sleep. Such a cold world....for everyone....just keeps growing colder. Try to keep fighting out there guys.....whats the other option? NOT creating? Impossible for anyone who feels it In their souls. Just remember that there's a large chance that you will not be successful even WITH extraordinary measures of luck. A generation of Edgar Allen poes awaits you
Stop robbing me then, Fantano!
Live Nation gives shell gas cards and cash paper and their venues are confused lol
This why I make music for fun, if anything I’m losing money doin this shi & idc cuz I’m having fun :))
is anyone organizing anything that could push back on this? and push back on the music industry's greed in general?
Frankly we just need to have a union. We actually used to have one until the US decided that unions were evil and destroyed most of them within 30 years. Honestly I can see it happening though. Especially the US really has a huge movement with striking and unionizing, so it could be only a few years before we are actually provided protections
Where did you get that hoodie?