Heavenly Father give me your strength being a single mother is one of the most difficult job in the world. Not only do I have to raise my children on my own, but I also have to make all of the decisions for my sons and both have special needs. Please help me to be more patient with myself and with my kids. Lord I will lean on you to renew my soul each and every day. Lord I’m also struggling to support my sons. Every month is a struggle. Please help me to make wise decisions as a single mother. Guide me in all I do, and help me to always put your will first.
I thought I had the hardest job in the world taking care of a handicap husband and being 80 years old. But to you single mother you Trump at all you are the rock star and I will pray for you
I hope that your ward is involved in your welfare. Your sons will learn generosity at a young age under your leadership. Sending love and prayers your way.
It was good to go to the St. George Tabernacle on Friday and listen to D. John Butler, and get a copy of his book afterward. I appreciate the work that you do. Thank you for sharing.
So that went too quick, give us more, I need more. You can see Mike and Dave are just scraping the surface. I can't wait for the next 1. Great discussion, I lap it all up, and Scooby's got the twinkies.
We believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly! We've been taught this for almost 200 years. Thank you so much for proving our claim. Yes, the Bible is the word of God and it is most important to our spiritual progression today. However, by the hands of powerful evil men that would change, edit, jumble or completely throw out books or sections that didn't reinforce their views, things were lost or not copied correctly. You guys are awesome!
I love the Stick of Joseph broadcasts and I could listen to Mike and Dave all day long. Nice to have Brad join in. We can just consider him one of the Paul brothers!
Dave casually says "I need to learn German" I spent two years there and still could not speak or understand the blasted language. love your guy's insight and conversation.
There's a channel on here called UsefulCharts and he has a two and a half hour video explaining the documentary hypothesis, and going through each book of the Bible and where we think it may have come from (or the three or four theories for where they came from). I would definitely recommend it for anyone who wants to learn more about the topic.
I thinks that it’s also super interesting that the story of Noah’s Ark and the story of the City of Enoch are the same story. Both a boat and a city are feminine entities into which the righteous are gathered. Both are lifted up into the heavens above the chaos waters brought upon the earth by wickedness. And both are brought back down in the end times when the earth was to be renewed. Noah means “rest” and Enoch means “initiated, inaugurated”, both terms are very much temple related. In Enoch’s vision in the book of Moses, as Enoch sees the wickedness/chaos waters play out on the earth in front of him, he asks “when will the earth REST?” Or when will the earth Noah? When will Noah be brought back down to the earth? Both stories are packed with temple imagery.
"Both a boat and a city are feminine entities" That's some cringe zeitgeist non sequitur non biblical nonsense. We don't worship gender. We are not saved by "feminine" anything. Nowhere does any scripture allude to worshipping or noticing or yielding to or being saved by "femininity" other than family roles. We are saved by Jesus alone. He was a man, not a woman, not feminine, calling Himself repeatedly "the Son". Not the "daughter".
Mike Day and David Butler are going to be household names amongst the mormon peoples. Their ability to absorb information and then synthesize those ideas into an easily digestible framework is such an important skill, necessary for the next generation of mormon scholars and philosophers. Thank you to everyone involved. I'm grateful that the Paul brothers started this channel, I'm grateful they interviewed Mike and Dave and started their publishing company. I'm grateful for Mike and his vast knowledge of all things near east and his ability to make connections that others can't. I am grateful for his ability to make scripture study fun, and interesting and meaningful. I'm grateful for Dave and his eclectic knowledge, and for his crazy insights into language and cultures, and beliefs. Like Mike, Dave is fantastic at making scripture study meaningful and fun. Alright I'll quit waxing poetic, but before I do, I want to make my stance on the subject VERY CLEAR! Brad Witbeck 2028
I think what's so great about having the different editors of the Bible is that they each give us a composite sketch from a different perspective. When you layer the different perspectives together, you get depth and a more panoramic view of our history and relationship with God.
Friedman has a third book "The Hidden Book in the Bible" in which he propses that J was the work of a single author, is the oldest prose (not poetic) narrative in the world and actually extends from Genesis to the establishment of Solomon as king. The book includes his whole extracted narrativ
I just realized that I’m way less intelligent than I previously thought. I’ll need to read the book to understand. All these initials are over my head.
This is fascinating dialogue. I particularly love the mention of and analogy to the Civil War and who influenced the history books. My husband and I moved from Utah to South Carolina two years ago, and living here, we have learned an entirely different way of viewing the Civil War. Truly, the victors write history, but there are gems of information to be had that can yield an entirely different perspective from the more obscure side. We have been enlightened by what we have learned here.
Thank you for the video and discussion. I didn't realize that there are probably two different accounts of the flood. What stood out to me a lot was the question about the 2 pairs or 2 and 7 pairs of clean and unclean animals.
You guys need to get on Dallas Jenkins round table discussions, he could learn a lot from you guys and make The Chosen that much better. Why not have all faiths pull together, we all learn from one another, and my best guess is Dallas doesn't include LDS people in his research discussions for his writers. So excited to listen to this podcast for the next hour - your intro got my attention!
If you pay close attention Brother Jenkins is a deuteronomist and disparages the temple each chance he can. See episode with woman at the well. Also when they sit shiva for John the Baptist among others.
For all the times Dallas has had to defend the Chosen NOT having any LDS influence..... People wild quit watching the Chosen altogether if he had these guys as a part of his ring table.😅
@@kimberlylawson8240 Maybe so, but he would gain a lot more😍 knowledge seeing the Bible for what it really is - flawed. The point these guys made that the writers of the Bible were the same guys who wanted Jesus gone, I wouldn't take too much of what they said at face value. The bible is not completely accurate, too many cooks in the kitchen changed the recipe. I still believe Dallas should include an LDS scholar at his round table, there are some brilliant LDS scholars that have studied ancient scrolls, theology, etc., and he would benefit having more narrative. But, for now I guess the LDS people are the only privileged people to have the extra knowledge that we do - this was a great podcast.
I understand the Dallas Jenkins does have some LDS input but doesn't rely on them solely. He was granted access to the Church's land near Gunnison Utah to film much of the series
If I remember correctly from an interview of the Angel brothers with Dave Rowe their was an agreement upfront that no LDS scholar would be on that round table as part of the agreement that Jenkins would have full license to write the script as he saw fit. To the comment on the LDS sweetie’s it’s true that they have access to the set in Gunisson which he complains publicly about the COVD testing cost to use it and he developed the new investment group to build his own set in Texas. I like the Chosen too don’t get me wrong but they have written the story as anti temple and now that they have split with Angel and feelings are hurt I would expect to see them double down on the anti temple or temples are not needed anymore rhetoric. I’m not saying it is not great entertainment but it has become unfortunately an anti LDS perspective undertone presentation. That’s just the facts
I love your guys content, always bringing so much clarity to the deeper meanings of scripture! I was wondering if you guys are going to do a deep dive of the book of Abraham because I have a lot of questions about it and there’s a lot of controversy surrounding the book. So it would be awesome to hear you guys break it down! 👍
1:00:59 this makes me think of the meaning of Noah is Rest, we get this in Egyptian with Hotep. Finding rest is by covenant and generally refers to few being preserved and moved to another place. Whereas the backward reading of Noah in Hebrew would be Jonah/Jonas/John/Jonathan, which would refer to Grace and used when we see many saved where they are and not displaced. We are to find “rest” in the Lord by and through covenant (Ark) and it is by and through His “Grace” all may be saved. Even in the BoM we see King Noah and the temple and priests had neglected covenants and were destroyed, likely on the very Tisha b’Av day that the other Temples were destroyed. After that we have Tu b’Av when a tribe would go to “steal away” daughters of another tribe who would be found dancing in a vineyard/orchard, which is what we see happen with the priests of Noah taking Lamanite 24 daughters. Shortly after we have Alma do a priestly ritual washing of himself as he baptizes others at a spring of living and flowing water. “Restoring” likely during Yom Kippur, all at a placed Called waters of Mormon, Mormon meaning “more good” which is what man or Adam was as a “new creation.” Native American tradition is that when tribes split it is a “new creation” and they have a new creation story. Husband and wife have their own “new creations” when they establish a home. Every Creation story is or should be a new beginning for a covenant family. As husband and wife, ward or tribe, and people. Being fruitful is more than just having children but of also spreading of the covenant, which is order. The Noahide laws are the more root of these records, and again we have these rhyming records to recognize one another, and it is by the records we have that we gather all who will let God prevail in their lives, those who seek higher holier ways, or dry ground, even the tops of mountains, all those who flee the waters of chaos but instead will be reborn by living water. Makes me think of how Christ has an affinity for Jonas, John the Baptist, John the Revelator, even mentioning of Simon son of Jonah. Meaning how grace is there even for those who do not find rest in the Lord, going back to the plan of salvation. Sorry that may seem scattered but it’s purposeful.
@@Steelblaidd How many millions of innocent kids were needlessly murdered by flooding the earth and killing all except a handful of people? We should be thankful it was a myth.
@@ericreed4535 burden of proof rests upon you. We have multiple records and even records outside of the canon of scripture that relates these stories from across multiple cultures and continents.
@@kz6fittycent Extraordinary claims require at least credible and testable evidence. The burden is on who makes the extraordinary claims. Stories of localized floods aren't evidence for a global flood that wiped out all life except a handful who survived on a boat. The data are clear and there isn't any evidence of a global flood. The dispersal of the species, the fossil record, and other strong evidences against this. I suggest you search Dan McClellan, global flood. He's LDS btw.
On the subject of who bought Joseph, I know Egyptologists have suggested that these were Amorites which may have been recognized as a Hyksos by Egyptians.
Very interesting! An organization called Answers in Genesis has done some very good work on Noah's Ark and the flood. They have actually built a replica of the Ark, built to the real specifications in the Bible. They explain what animals would have been taken on the Ark and how long the flood lasted and how the flood affected the geology of the Earth. Their research takes the "Fairy Tale" aspect out of the flood and shows how it actually happened. Also a group called Is Genesis History have done great work! They both have RUclips channels.
The Old Testament tells us it's been changed, all throughout the Old Testament you see phrases like Unto this day or Until the captivity (which could only be the Babylonian Captivity). That includes where it tells us that God buried Moses "and no man knows of his sepulchre Unto This Day." The Old Testament also tells us to read books by Prophets and Seers for a better understanding of things that aren't included in or barely mentioned by the Old Testament.
My friend inspired me to ask the Lord to visit other planets. I still don't have the desires at the level of him. I can share a limited information that can help, most to know privately, a few things you can share and Hebrew that backs it up. The Lord judges our hearts, so he only showed me what was in my heart to see.
One of the challenges I find with the documentary hypothesis is that it seems to ignore what Jesus says about the bible. Jesus quotes extensively from the book of Deuteronomy and attributes it in multiple places to moses. That doesn't necessarily mean there weren't changes made after the days of moses.
I notice the arc has three levels: perhaps illusion to the three degrees of glory. Are we sure this is a boat? I just kept getting this image of a temple. Which makes way more sense than a boat of that size which is really hard to build? Either way, it just gives me this focus that we go to the temple two by two (family or husband wife) to be protected from the floods of the earth.
Google "biblical criticism", "higher criticism", "text criticism". This has been a well established field of study outside of the LDS bubble for over two hundred years now.
Ive been really diving into tithing in the old testament and how similar our practises have evolved into today. A question I have been pondering about the deuteronomic reforms is "is there evidence that the law of tithing in the five books of moses was corrupted/changed?" Does Dave Butler or Mike Day know much about this topic?
@@guardianzforzion I’ve been on a study of tithing also , while investigating the church (4th discussion) I had gone on a trip to Hawaii and was able to visit the temple, while walking towards the temple ( took the bus and got off at the highway) had a incredible spiritual experience by the time I got to the gates I knew I definitely found home , and without a doubt I was going to be baptized when I returned home, that night I had a dream of a war in heaven and which side I chose, then had a dream about tithing ! I started paying tithing when I got home . The Bible dictionary has some very interesting messages in regards to tithing and footnotes to study !
Bummer it's sold out! We live in Missouri and will be in Utah, literally driving through Orem as the event is going on. My kids heard the announcement and that it was during our time in Utah and got really excited. Alas, it was not meant to be this time
I read Friedman's book in the 1990s. In the version I read, Friedman stated that Jeremiah wrote D. So the version I read was earlier than the others. I found it interesting, but the proofs were very weak. I have seen in my career many examples of my own reports and colleague's report that can be broken down into assumed "sources" as well. When LDS scholars started getting interested in the DH and in the Deuteronomic reform and wondered how to resolve Jeremiah as D and Nephi. But that was resolved with Friedman changing from Jeremiah and saying that D edited Jeremiah. That said, I had long recognized (back in the 70s) that Joshua, Judges, 1st and 2nd Samuel, and 1st and 2nd Kings, were probably written by the same person, but that 1st and 2nd Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah sound like they were written by the same person (Nehemiah as that one is in first person). Thus D made sense to me. I did try to figure out how Deuteronomy fit into it. P is also quite distinctive. The latter half of Exodus and all of Leviticus clearly fit the P pattern, which can also be seen in Genesis and Numbers. E vs. J made sense. Another book that is intriguing is "Who Really Wrote the Bible?" by Clayton Howard Ford. This is another book with intriguing ideas that also has very week proofs. Also this book has been updated as well since I read it. He lays out an organization for Genesis that I found very intriguing--into 12 parts separated by the generations texts. And the pattern is very interesting. He then argues that this is what an author would do. The thought I had in reading this was "this is also what a redactor might do."
The Mormons are so dumb when the Bible speaks about Ephraim it's just talking about the northern kingdom Ephraim is just another name for Israel has absolutely nothing to do with the Book of Mormon which is 50/50 half Joseph Smith took from the Bible another half he made up as a fairytale nothing but garbage
The Mormons hate to admit that Adam and eve were two black people and God said let us make man in our image Adam was black so what color was God he was black also
What's important is the messages in the Bible. We have it as a testimony of Christ. Isaiah is quoted in the Book of Mormon, as well which proves the importance of much of the Old Testament. We have to be careful about going down rabbit holes.
I thought this was an AMAZING conversation on the nature of historical evidences. I tend to sum it up this way. Alma taught us to "experiment upon the word". That had to come FIRST BEFORE it was to begin to grow. Only after we do the thing do we know if it is going to be a good seed or a bad seed enough to know what to do with it. In this example of Alma's, the experimentation is desire TO believe. You have chosen NOT to doubt but to trust the process and see where it leads. In the context of the conversation on the true narrative of the bible, I think it's important to note that the same approach must be made. That we must determine that the bible IS true and then to do the work to discover HOW it is true for each one of us. And we will know the truth of the thing by its fruits. For truth is, by its nature, absolute. So that when I discover a truth and you discover a truth, there is no difference in the understanding of it. But truth always comes with a desire to change and a motivation to do so. So discussing the concept that the bible has questionable characteristics (not negative and not positive), one must understand that Almas question runs eternal and we must seek out what will make us into "Sons and Daughters of God". I know so many people who watch for the signs of the times as if just by knowing them, they qualify to escape the consequences of their arrival. For me, I am not wanting to have anything to do with the things those signs portend. Rather, I want to navigate past them and be safe from them if I can. So my conversations must be different. The same holds true with the Bible. I must do my own due diligence and exercise my own experimentation (the directions for doing this are there) in order that I might, with my family, be safe from the coming storms. Again, I LOVE the conversation and the unanswered points of "Where did Cain come from?" or the name "Adonai". That name is female, if I am remembering correctly. Strange that the Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (and many others) knew this female so well that it just went without saying that she was a SHE. LOL. Anyway, you guys tend to ask better questions that me sometimes and I just thought I would take the shot at the question Hayden posed of "Why should any of this matter?" I hope it was understandable. LOL
I noticed that there are two creation accounts, one in Genesis one and one in Genesis too. However, in the book of Moses in the pearl of great Price these two repeated stories are preserved as one is speaking to spiritual creation and to physical creation. How does this fit into this paradigm?
So I have a question for Dave and Mike. It isn't related to this book of your discussion. I am wondering about something else I have seen online. What can you tell me about the Adam-God Theory? Maybe it could be a topic of short discussion if need be. I come across channels that make my spirit feel uneasy and when I go in to investigate the channel there is little information. I know there is a lot of deception and false teachings out there even with active members. I so appreciate those active members who always express their channels stating that what they are expressing is their opinion as they understand things.
This is an entirely new topic, but have you or Dave or Mike considered a program about Richard Elliot Friedman's other similarly interesting "The Exodus". In this book he argues that the Exodus was not of over one million Hebrews escaping Israel but rather just the Levites. By whatever means those Levites managed to link up with tribes of Israel and became both the 12th tribe but also the priestly caste. As the priests and teachers of the nation they had hundreds of years to tell the Hebrew history so that it included them legitimate sons since they were also the teachers of the young.
Thank you for the 80's references! Bill and Ted are terrible movies but hilarious and who will ever forget the Circle K 😂😂😂. Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts on the gospel. It is very enlightening and is great mental food to chew on.
I wonder what version that the Native Americans have on Noah and the flood. Might ask Chief Midegah! Would love to know what they know. Where it was not published for a particular audience.
How do we know that these traditions are the same as they held prior to their Babylonian captivity? Is that why there is a duplicity? How are these stories represented in writings prior to 600 BC?
Deuteronomy 22:30 = "A man shall not take his father 's wife, so that he does not uncover his father 's nakedness. Canaan was an illegimate child born of incest who was not in the priesthood line. that was thee curse.
The Book of Mormon explicitly states that the brass plates has the five books of Moses. To imply that nearly the whole Torah was put together by various unconnected sources, therefore discrediting Moses as the primary author is going to hurt the autheticy of the Book of Mormon and the jst inspired verison of Genesis. Try to be careful to not insert completely naturalistic assumptions into history and please be aware that scholarships makes a lot of guesses that are not concerted.
I still enjoy this channel and a lot of what Dave Butler has to say about temple worship and the deuteronomic reforms. It has changed how I read the Book of Mormon.
The general contention is that the editing happened post exile, so after Lehi left. This in no way discredits the Book of Mormon it shows its absolute purpose which is to be a lens through which we can interpret the bible.
My understanding is that each tribe had a book of genesis, a book of exodus, ... with each tribe having things that are important to their tribe and having left out items that did not matter to their tribe.
@@thestickofjoseph What do you mean by editing? The brass plates were before the exiled. Are you referring to the Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles and everything else after the book of Moses? Don't mean to get into a debate.
Dave Butler is one of my favorite brains. ☺
Agree!
@@curious.learner24who are the companions of Ephraim in Ezekiel 37:16
Heavenly Father give me your strength being a single mother is one of the most difficult job in the world. Not only do I have to raise my children on my own, but I also have to make all of the decisions for my sons and both have special needs. Please help me to be more patient with myself and with my kids. Lord I will lean on you to renew my soul each and every day. Lord I’m also struggling to support my sons. Every month is a struggle. Please help me to make wise decisions as a single mother. Guide me in all I do, and help me to always put your will first.
God bless you ❤
God bless you sister!
Bless you 🙏🙏🙏
I thought I had the hardest job in the world taking care of a handicap husband and being 80 years old. But to you single mother you Trump at all you are the rock star and I will pray for you
I hope that your ward is involved in your welfare. Your sons will learn generosity at a young age under your leadership.
Sending love and prayers your way.
It was good to go to the St. George Tabernacle on Friday and listen to D. John Butler, and get a copy of his book afterward. I appreciate the work that you do. Thank you for sharing.
I was there too! Very cool experience.
We saw him in El Paso a few days earlier 🥰
Best title for a show in LDS RUclips space, hands down.
One of the most interesting things about the Book of Mormon is that it is the history of the losing side.
That hit me hard about 6 months ago. very unique.
Never thought this way...awesome!
So that went too quick, give us more, I need more. You can see Mike and Dave are just scraping the surface. I can't wait for the next 1. Great discussion, I lap it all up, and Scooby's got the twinkies.
We believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly!
We've been taught this for almost 200 years.
Thank you so much for proving our claim.
Yes, the Bible is the word of God and it is most important to our spiritual progression today.
However, by the hands of powerful evil men that would change, edit, jumble or completely throw out books or sections that didn't reinforce their views, things were lost or not copied correctly.
You guys are awesome!
I love the Stick of Joseph broadcasts and I could listen to Mike and Dave all day long. Nice to have Brad join in. We can just consider him one of the Paul brothers!
Dave casually says "I need to learn German" I spent two years there and still could not speak or understand the blasted language.
love your guy's insight and conversation.
LOVE this episode! You are making this significant scholarship so accessible and interesting!
Thank you…
There's a channel on here called UsefulCharts and he has a two and a half hour video explaining the documentary hypothesis, and going through each book of the Bible and where we think it may have come from (or the three or four theories for where they came from). I would definitely recommend it for anyone who wants to learn more about the topic.
We’re so lucky to have this channel. Thank you guys so much for sharing your knowledge.
I thinks that it’s also super interesting that the story of Noah’s Ark and the story of the City of Enoch are the same story. Both a boat and a city are feminine entities into which the righteous are gathered. Both are lifted up into the heavens above the chaos waters brought upon the earth by wickedness. And both are brought back down in the end times when the earth was to be renewed. Noah means “rest” and Enoch means “initiated, inaugurated”, both terms are very much temple related. In Enoch’s vision in the book of Moses, as Enoch sees the wickedness/chaos waters play out on the earth in front of him, he asks “when will the earth REST?” Or when will the earth Noah? When will Noah be brought back down to the earth? Both stories are packed with temple imagery.
Nice catch!! I never made that connection about Enoch asking when the earth will rest. Great find!
"Both a boat and a city are feminine entities"
That's some cringe zeitgeist non sequitur non biblical nonsense. We don't worship gender. We are not saved by "feminine" anything. Nowhere does any scripture allude to worshipping or noticing or yielding to or being saved by "femininity" other than family roles. We are saved by Jesus alone. He was a man, not a woman, not feminine, calling Himself repeatedly "the Son". Not the "daughter".
So, it turns out that the book is available as an audio book, and resides in my library. And I'll get the paperback too!
it took me a second to realize it was Brad not Hayden 😂
Very exited for a new episode!
Mike Day and David Butler are going to be household names amongst the mormon peoples. Their ability to absorb information and then synthesize those ideas into an easily digestible framework is such an important skill, necessary for the next generation of mormon scholars and philosophers.
Thank you to everyone involved. I'm grateful that the Paul brothers started this channel, I'm grateful they interviewed Mike and Dave and started their publishing company.
I'm grateful for Mike and his vast knowledge of all things near east and his ability to make connections that others can't. I am grateful for his ability to make scripture study fun, and interesting and meaningful.
I'm grateful for Dave and his eclectic knowledge, and for his crazy insights into language and cultures, and beliefs. Like Mike, Dave is fantastic at making scripture study meaningful and fun.
Alright I'll quit waxing poetic, but before I do, I want to make my stance on the subject VERY CLEAR!
Brad Witbeck 2028
Me too!
Please release this show as a regular podcast as well! I'd love to just be able to listen to this in the car using Android Auto / Carplay.
We are working on making our episodes podcasts - thanks for your patience!
I could listen to David and Mike everyday.
“Mom! Mom! Another Stick of Joseph episode dropped! Mooooom! Grab the chickie nuggies and pizza rolls!”
Hahah I’m glad we give you a reason to indulge in Pizza rolls! 😂
@@thestickofjosephwho are the companions of Ephraim in Ezekiel chapter 37 verse 16
Excited to hear this!
Thanks. This is useful education about the Bible and scripture in general.
Mike: “We want you to have a life”
Me: “Mike, this is my life!”
Or rather, this gives me life.
Excellent episode. I learned a lot. Thanks to all 4 of you!
You guys make geeky nerdom cool again.
Official member of the Dave Butler Sect!
I think what's so great about having the different editors of the Bible is that they each give us a composite sketch from a different perspective. When you layer the different perspectives together, you get depth and a more panoramic view of our history and relationship with God.
Another great video!
Friedman has a third book "The Hidden Book in the Bible" in which he propses that J was the work of a single author, is the oldest prose (not poetic) narrative in the world and actually extends from Genesis to the establishment of Solomon as king. The book includes his whole extracted narrativ
I just realized that I’m way less intelligent than I previously thought. I’ll need to read the book to understand. All these initials are over my head.
This is fascinating dialogue. I particularly love the mention of and analogy to the Civil War and who influenced the history books. My husband and I moved from Utah to South Carolina two years ago, and living here, we have learned an entirely different way of viewing the Civil War. Truly, the victors write history, but there are gems of information to be had that can yield an entirely different perspective from the more obscure side. We have been enlightened by what we have learned here.
Ahhh! I am so excited to watch this!
Sorry, I just started the video!!!
I love your program and learn so much.
It's a shame I can only subscribe to this channel once. It's sooooooooo good, *every single video* they've put out.
So good you guys! Thank you!❤
Thank you for the video and discussion. I didn't realize that there are probably two different accounts of the flood. What stood out to me a lot was the question about the 2 pairs or 2 and 7 pairs of clean and unclean animals.
You guys need to get on Dallas Jenkins round table discussions, he could learn a lot from you guys and make The Chosen that much better. Why not have all faiths pull together, we all learn from one another, and my best guess is Dallas doesn't include LDS people in his research discussions for his writers. So excited to listen to this podcast for the next hour - your intro got my attention!
If you pay close attention Brother Jenkins is a deuteronomist and disparages the temple each chance he can. See episode with woman at the well. Also when they sit shiva for John the Baptist among others.
For all the times Dallas has had to defend the Chosen NOT having any LDS influence..... People wild quit watching the Chosen altogether if he had these guys as a part of his ring table.😅
@@kimberlylawson8240 Maybe so, but he would gain a lot more😍 knowledge seeing the Bible for what it really is - flawed. The point these guys made that the writers of the Bible were the same guys who wanted Jesus gone, I wouldn't take too much of what they said at face value. The bible is not completely accurate, too many cooks in the kitchen changed the recipe. I still believe Dallas should include an LDS scholar at his round table, there are some brilliant LDS scholars that have studied ancient scrolls, theology, etc., and he would benefit having more narrative. But, for now I guess the LDS people are the only privileged people to have the extra knowledge that we do - this was a great podcast.
I understand the Dallas Jenkins does have some LDS input but doesn't rely on them solely. He was granted access to the Church's land near Gunnison Utah to film much of the series
If I remember correctly from an interview of the Angel brothers with Dave Rowe their was an agreement upfront that no LDS scholar would be on that round table as part of the agreement that Jenkins would have full license to write the script as he saw fit. To the comment on the LDS sweetie’s it’s true that they have access to the set in Gunisson which he complains publicly about the COVD testing cost to use it and he developed the new investment group to build his own set in Texas. I like the Chosen too don’t get me wrong but they have written the story as anti temple and now that they have split with Angel and feelings are hurt I would expect to see them double down on the anti temple or temples are not needed anymore rhetoric. I’m not saying it is not great entertainment but it has become unfortunately an anti LDS perspective undertone presentation. That’s just the facts
I am super excited!
This book is on audible!😊
Excellent book. You guys are picking good ones!
I love your guys content, always bringing so much clarity to the deeper meanings of scripture! I was wondering if you guys are going to do a deep dive of the book of Abraham because I have a lot of questions about it and there’s a lot of controversy surrounding the book. So it would be awesome to hear you guys break it down! 👍
“In order for a seed to grow it has to break” WOW
1:00:59 this makes me think of the meaning of Noah is Rest, we get this in Egyptian with Hotep. Finding rest is by covenant and generally refers to few being preserved and moved to another place. Whereas the backward reading of Noah in Hebrew would be Jonah/Jonas/John/Jonathan, which would refer to Grace and used when we see many saved where they are and not displaced. We are to find “rest” in the Lord by and through covenant (Ark) and it is by and through His “Grace” all may be saved. Even in the BoM we see King Noah and the temple and priests had neglected covenants and were destroyed, likely on the very Tisha b’Av day that the other Temples were destroyed. After that we have Tu b’Av when a tribe would go to “steal away” daughters of another tribe who would be found dancing in a vineyard/orchard, which is what we see happen with the priests of Noah taking Lamanite 24 daughters. Shortly after we have Alma do a priestly ritual washing of himself as he baptizes others at a spring of living and flowing water. “Restoring” likely during Yom Kippur, all at a placed Called waters of Mormon, Mormon meaning “more good” which is what man or Adam was as a “new creation.” Native American tradition is that when tribes split it is a “new creation” and they have a new creation story. Husband and wife have their own “new creations” when they establish a home. Every Creation story is or should be a new beginning for a covenant family. As husband and wife, ward or tribe, and people. Being fruitful is more than just having children but of also spreading of the covenant, which is order. The Noahide laws are the more root of these records, and again we have these rhyming records to recognize one another, and it is by the records we have that we gather all who will let God prevail in their lives, those who seek higher holier ways, or dry ground, even the tops of mountains, all those who flee the waters of chaos but instead will be reborn by living water. Makes me think of how Christ has an affinity for Jonas, John the Baptist, John the Revelator, even mentioning of Simon son of Jonah. Meaning how grace is there even for those who do not find rest in the Lord, going back to the plan of salvation. Sorry that may seem scattered but it’s purposeful.
@@Thehaystack7999 You know Noah wasn't real, right? There was no global flood, no Adam and Eve, no Tower of Babel, etc.
@@ericreed4535That is entirely irrelevant to what he is saying.
@@Steelblaidd How many millions of innocent kids were needlessly murdered by flooding the earth and killing all except a handful of people? We should be thankful it was a myth.
@@ericreed4535 burden of proof rests upon you. We have multiple records and even records outside of the canon of scripture that relates these stories from across multiple cultures and continents.
@@kz6fittycent Extraordinary claims require at least credible and testable evidence. The burden is on who makes the extraordinary claims. Stories of localized floods aren't evidence for a global flood that wiped out all life except a handful who survived on a boat. The data are clear and there isn't any evidence of a global flood. The dispersal of the species, the fossil record, and other strong evidences against this. I suggest you search Dan McClellan, global flood. He's LDS btw.
Well I listened to this book on audible. Now I have a thousand questions for Mike Day
On the subject of who bought Joseph, I know Egyptologists have suggested that these were Amorites which may have been recognized as a Hyksos by Egyptians.
Very interesting! An organization called Answers in Genesis has done some very good work on Noah's Ark and the flood. They have actually built a replica of the Ark, built to the real specifications in the Bible. They explain what animals would have been taken on the Ark and how long the flood lasted and how the flood affected the geology of the Earth. Their research takes the "Fairy Tale" aspect out of the flood and shows how it actually happened. Also a group called Is Genesis History have done great work! They both have RUclips channels.
I can't make it to Orem. Will it be recorded, please?
Following
@brad on SoJ is great. Manages to get some words in 😂 - sage advice. Very cool.
You'll see more of him soon!
Excellent! Making the complex simple.
Fantastic, I’ll be in that area during that time .
The Old Testament tells us it's been changed, all throughout the Old Testament you see phrases like Unto this day or Until the captivity (which could only be the Babylonian Captivity). That includes where it tells us that God buried Moses "and no man knows of his sepulchre Unto This Day." The Old Testament also tells us to read books by Prophets and Seers for a better understanding of things that aren't included in or barely mentioned by the Old Testament.
A new video! Gotta make time for this today
Incredible stuff, guy!
1:06:22 that Bill and Ted reference was perfect 🤣
My friend inspired me to ask the Lord to visit other planets. I still don't have the desires at the level of him. I can share a limited information that can help, most to know privately, a few things you can share and Hebrew that backs it up. The Lord judges our hearts, so he only showed me what was in my heart to see.
One of the challenges I find with the documentary hypothesis is that it seems to ignore what Jesus says about the bible. Jesus quotes extensively from the book of Deuteronomy and attributes it in multiple places to moses. That doesn't necessarily mean there weren't changes made after the days of moses.
Wishing there was an event in AZ! I can’t wait to read Jonah’s book!
Just love this feast!
I notice the arc has three levels: perhaps illusion to the three degrees of glory. Are we sure this is a boat? I just kept getting this image of a temple. Which makes way more sense than a boat of that size which is really hard to build?
Either way, it just gives me this focus that we go to the temple two by two (family or husband wife) to be protected from the floods of the earth.
Google "biblical criticism", "higher criticism", "text criticism". This has been a well established field of study outside of the LDS bubble for over two hundred years now.
Ive been really diving into tithing in the old testament and how similar our practises have evolved into today.
A question I have been pondering about the deuteronomic reforms is "is there evidence that the law of tithing in the five books of moses was corrupted/changed?"
Does Dave Butler or Mike Day know much about this topic?
@@guardianzforzion I’ve been on a study of tithing also , while investigating the church (4th discussion) I had gone on a trip to Hawaii and was able to visit the temple, while walking towards the temple ( took the bus and got off at the highway) had a incredible spiritual experience by the time I got to the gates I knew I definitely found home , and without a doubt I was going to be baptized when I returned home, that night I had a dream of a war in heaven and which side I chose, then had a dream about tithing ! I started paying tithing when I got home . The Bible dictionary has some very interesting messages in regards to tithing and footnotes to study !
@@denisekyle6603 that's awesome to hear you are getting baptised.
What have you learned about tithing?
Bummer it's sold out! We live in Missouri and will be in Utah, literally driving through Orem as the event is going on. My kids heard the announcement and that it was during our time in Utah and got really excited. Alas, it was not meant to be this time
How big is your family?
@@thestickofjoseph 6, one's a baby though
I read Friedman's book in the 1990s. In the version I read, Friedman stated that Jeremiah wrote D. So the version I read was earlier than the others. I found it interesting, but the proofs were very weak. I have seen in my career many examples of my own reports and colleague's report that can be broken down into assumed "sources" as well.
When LDS scholars started getting interested in the DH and in the Deuteronomic reform and wondered how to resolve Jeremiah as D and Nephi. But that was resolved with Friedman changing from Jeremiah and saying that D edited Jeremiah.
That said, I had long recognized (back in the 70s) that Joshua, Judges, 1st and 2nd Samuel, and 1st and 2nd Kings, were probably written by the same person, but that 1st and 2nd Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah sound like they were written by the same person (Nehemiah as that one is in first person). Thus D made sense to me. I did try to figure out how Deuteronomy fit into it.
P is also quite distinctive. The latter half of Exodus and all of Leviticus clearly fit the P pattern, which can also be seen in Genesis and Numbers.
E vs. J made sense.
Another book that is intriguing is "Who Really Wrote the Bible?" by Clayton Howard Ford. This is another book with intriguing ideas that also has very week proofs. Also this book has been updated as well since I read it. He lays out an organization for Genesis that I found very intriguing--into 12 parts separated by the generations texts. And the pattern is very interesting. He then argues that this is what an author would do. The thought I had in reading this was "this is also what a redactor might do."
Nice velvet underground reference. My radio show is named from one of their songs!
Paradigms, love it.
Ok, I’ve got Oct, 1st 7:00 saved on my calendar. What’s the address?!
I don’t want to miss this!
Click the link in the description to register!
Is Doctor Jack gonna be at the live event!?
It is interesting that the debate over who is to rule, Judah or Ephraim, bleeds over to the Book of Mormon.
The Mormons are so dumb when the Bible speaks about Ephraim it's just talking about the northern kingdom Ephraim is just another name for Israel has absolutely nothing to do with the Book of Mormon which is 50/50 half Joseph Smith took from the Bible another half he made up as a fairytale nothing but garbage
The HIS-story of the first dysfunctional family. My heart is aching for Mother Eve.😢
The Mormons hate to admit that Adam and eve were two black people and God said let us make man in our image Adam was black so what color was God he was black also
1:13:57 Jesus talks about how seeds have to die before the plant can grow!
Does this same method of the potential different authors work with the KJV Bible and the NIV Bible? This is from the RSV version correct?
Maybe there is no conflict with animals going in pairs into the ark. The 7 x 7 animals can still enter the ark in pairs.
Mike and Dave should do a reaction video to Dr. Jack Logan the ancient tradition podcast. Mike made a shout-out and I want to hear his comments on it.
Did you get a link to the pdf? Am I missing it? Great discussion by the way!
www.ldsscriptureteachings.org/2018/08/genesis-6-9-rsv-with-sources-revealed/
Here you go
What's important is the messages in the Bible. We have it as a testimony of Christ. Isaiah is quoted in the Book of Mormon, as well which proves the importance of much of the Old Testament. We have to be careful about going down rabbit holes.
Very interesting, is it possible that the reason that the two kingdoms split ultimately breaks down to the differences between J and E
I thought this was an AMAZING conversation on the nature of historical evidences.
I tend to sum it up this way.
Alma taught us to "experiment upon the word". That had to come FIRST BEFORE it was to begin to grow. Only after we do the thing do we know if it is going to be a good seed or a bad seed enough to know what to do with it.
In this example of Alma's, the experimentation is desire TO believe. You have chosen NOT to doubt but to trust the process and see where it leads.
In the context of the conversation on the true narrative of the bible, I think it's important to note that the same approach must be made. That we must determine that the bible IS true and then to do the work to discover HOW it is true for each one of us.
And we will know the truth of the thing by its fruits. For truth is, by its nature, absolute. So that when I discover a truth and you discover a truth, there is no difference in the understanding of it.
But truth always comes with a desire to change and a motivation to do so.
So discussing the concept that the bible has questionable characteristics (not negative and not positive), one must understand that Almas question runs eternal and we must seek out what will make us into "Sons and Daughters of God".
I know so many people who watch for the signs of the times as if just by knowing them, they qualify to escape the consequences of their arrival.
For me, I am not wanting to have anything to do with the things those signs portend. Rather, I want to navigate past them and be safe from them if I can. So my conversations must be different.
The same holds true with the Bible. I must do my own due diligence and exercise my own experimentation (the directions for doing this are there) in order that I might, with my family, be safe from the coming storms.
Again, I LOVE the conversation and the unanswered points of "Where did Cain come from?" or the name "Adonai". That name is female, if I am remembering correctly. Strange that the Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (and many others) knew this female so well that it just went without saying that she was a SHE. LOL.
Anyway, you guys tend to ask better questions that me sometimes and I just thought I would take the shot at the question Hayden posed of "Why should any of this matter?"
I hope it was understandable. LOL
I noticed that there are two creation accounts, one in Genesis one and one in Genesis too. However, in the book of Moses in the pearl of great Price these two repeated stories are preserved as one is speaking to spiritual creation and to physical creation. How does this fit into this paradigm?
For the next Mike and Dave Read Books, can you do: God: An Anatomy
Book by Francesca Stavrakopoulou
So I have a question for Dave and Mike. It isn't related to this book of your discussion. I am wondering about something else I have seen online. What can you tell me about the Adam-God Theory? Maybe it could be a topic of short discussion if need be. I come across channels that make my spirit feel uneasy and when I go in to investigate the channel there is little information. I know there is a lot of deception and false teachings out there even with active members. I so appreciate those active members who always express their channels stating that what they are expressing is their opinion as they understand things.
And everyone rushes to download Velvet Underground albums.......
This is an entirely new topic, but have you or Dave or Mike considered a program about Richard Elliot Friedman's other similarly interesting "The Exodus". In this book he argues that the Exodus was not of over one million Hebrews escaping Israel but rather just the Levites. By whatever means those Levites managed to link up with tribes of Israel and became both the 12th tribe but also the priestly caste. As the priests and teachers of the nation they had hundreds of years to tell the Hebrew history so that it included them legitimate sons since they were also the teachers of the young.
I got my ticket last night! ❤❤❤
My daughters and I are going as well.
Thank you for the 80's references! Bill and Ted are terrible movies but hilarious and who will ever forget the Circle K 😂😂😂.
Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts on the gospel. It is very enlightening and is great mental food to chew on.
But I already bought the book, can I get in for free?
Gosh. If Mother Eve witnessed Her progeny being destroyed like that, there would be wailing in Heaven!
Are they saying D and E? I looked up on talking scripture and didn't find what Mike was talking about
I love how Dave is ripping on the lawyers and scribes when he is a lawyer. I guess it takes one to recognize one? :D
What were the five books of Moses on the brass plates?
How do we know that 7 pairs doesnt mean "perfect" pairs?
I wonder what version that the Native Americans have on Noah and the flood. Might ask Chief Midegah! Would love to know what they know. Where it was not published for a particular audience.
can we get mike day a white t shirt? he blends in with the studio too much
How do we know that these traditions are the same as they held prior to their Babylonian captivity? Is that why there is a duplicity? How are these stories represented in writings prior to 600 BC?
CANNOT WAIT TO LISTEN TO THE BALLERS READING THESE BOOKS
Deuteronomy 22:30 = "A man shall not take his father 's wife, so that he does not uncover his father 's nakedness. Canaan was an illegimate child born of incest who was not in the priesthood line. that was thee curse.
P sounds like the portrayal of Matthew in The Chosen.
Sad…. The event is sold out! You guys obviously need bigger venues. 😢
Were there even “clean” animals in the days of of Noah?
The Book of Mormon explicitly states that the brass plates has the five books of Moses. To imply that nearly the whole Torah was put together by various unconnected sources, therefore discrediting Moses as the primary author is going to hurt the autheticy of the Book of Mormon and the jst inspired verison of Genesis. Try to be careful to not insert completely naturalistic assumptions into history and please be aware that scholarships makes a lot of guesses that are not concerted.
Please don't ignore this fact.
I still enjoy this channel and a lot of what Dave Butler has to say about temple worship and the deuteronomic reforms. It has changed how I read the Book of Mormon.
The general contention is that the editing happened post exile, so after Lehi left. This in no way discredits the Book of Mormon it shows its absolute purpose which is to be a lens through which we can interpret the bible.
My understanding is that each tribe had a book of genesis, a book of exodus, ... with each tribe having things that are important to their tribe and having left out items that did not matter to their tribe.
@@thestickofjoseph
What do you mean by editing?
The brass plates were before the exiled. Are you referring to the Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles and everything else after the book of Moses?
Don't mean to get into a debate.
To answer the question, we don't know who.
Dear Mike, I am kluged as well Brother.
Just bought it.