I'm glad that there are people like you who deep dive like this and explain in such a clear manor. It makes me believe you more than some marketing jargon.
It is full of mistakes made to boost sales. I'm surprised Diyre did this because they have some interesting projects like colour modules, bus compressor, 500 series stuff, support, etc.
I just finished building this. It’s the most cleverly designed kit I’ve ever put together and I’ve build many DIYRE and CAPI designs. Every part of this kit was top shelf. I had a lot of fun building it and the PCBs and build instructions were exquisite. Thank you for a fun weekend!
Oh my god this is amazing. You made so much sense out of things that my mentors described to me and also my experience with 1073 clones throughout the years. Thank you!
Wow. Your dedication and passion are palpable. Love that you're selecting parts by ear rather than by spec, too. I've been thinking about putting together a little lunchbox vocal channel strip, the 73P is now at the top of my list. Would love a similar deep dive on the color series!
Thank you for sharing. It’s good to see the results you described on your blog. The analogy of the layers of sonic varnish was so spot on. I happened to come across it after purchasing a pair of colours and have been waiting to see the finished project. This looks very promising. You explained the design and function so well in this video. Please feel free to do more videos like this.
I am so excited for this kit, been meaning to get some 73 style pres, but I am so happy I waited! Definitely going to preorder. Amazing deep dive, please keep them coming. And just saying.. you’ve already got me sold on a 76 style comp when you get around to that too 😉
Best semi-deepdive on the tube. Please keep them coming. I'm still waiting for someone to make a diy'ish 500 series modular console.... I would be 1st in line.
Thanks, I will try to keep them coming! I've also dreamed of a 500-series modular console for 10+ years, but I'll be honest-I don't think the economics work for making it a product. I know that CAPI and Purple and maybe others have had a go at it. There are only so many folks out there with the budget, space, and obsessiveness to build a DIY console.
@@PetersonGoodwyn Maybe a channelstrip would be a cool compromise. Your PreAmp Design, EQP5, OLA5 and 3x Plugin Slots all in one 19“ device. Would be soooo cool!
As a guy with 16 discrete and different microphone preamps in my 500 arsenal, including one I built and designed myself, my favorite thing is showing all my clients that the $200 one sounds as good as some $900 one.
Thanks for sharing, it's very educational. I think we really have to look at the design with the original design intent in mind. Transistor circuits are traditionally conceived in a way that most part tolerances can be compensated. There is nothing magic about it. The "character" of a circuit comes from all the shortcomings. The genius is in making the circuit behave musical when it hits the limits.
I’ll have to save up to get one to go with my AML clone. I can see some differences based on your explanation even with my limited circuit knowledge. I’d love to hear more break downs of circuitry if you’re up for it!
Looks great! Do you think you'll do an EQ that can insert in before the preamp's output? I use Sound Skulptor's version just about daily and I love it. Really cool to see your take on it!
Can you say what your main application of the Tantalums caps were? I'm using NOS film and some Soviet paper-in-oil caps for a preamp design project and am considering Tantalums in feedback part of the op-amp circuitry and in some power decoupling.
Thx for sharing. I'm sure of a nice design. However, does it sound exactly neve 1073?. I've heard warm audio 73 with charnhill transformers, vs. Neve 73LB 500 series. Neve sounded better. It would be nice to hear the difference . Thx.
Thanks! I'm not positive about that. The old transformers will definitely work in the circuit, but I'm not positive that they are the correct dimensions to slip right into place. You could check the dimensions and pinout of the VTB 1148 and VTB 9045 in the Carnhill datasheets to confirm: www.barryrudolph.com/recall/manuals/carnhill_design_guide.pdf
Well, this vintage gear snobbery is really stupid, people buy those old pieces or knock-offs while their music is crap, but if I ever decide to buy a Neve preamp it will be because of this video. Magnificent. 🖖
Great question. Those are also excellent preamps. The 73P and AML are very similar-the main differences are that the 73P has the line in switch, DI, and trim knob. The BAE is different from both in that it's 1272-style (two-stages).
its from the seventies, not from the sixities. most modules are about 50 years old not sixty. then in a typical 80series neve the input module doesn't just go to a passive bus (except bcm). THE typical 80series sound is input module, routing module, output gain module (all active 6pairs of xfmr) for a mixdown or recording over active group modules.
You're absolutely right, 70's is correct, I misspoke. Some of the schematics we referenced were drawn in '69 but didn't see the light of day until '70. And thanks for the additional insight in to the 80-series signal path.
What consequences have merging on the same heatsink the output transistor with the regulator one? I dont know much but I try to separate PSU from audio as much as possible. Does it have any benefit to correlate heat variance from both paths or is it just a compromise of 500 series limited size? Keep up the work! Love your company and really dig all the documentation you give us 🫶
No consequences that we can hear or measure. Using the big transistors and heatsink means both run very cool. So neither transistor is getting into a thermal range where performance is significantly different from the baseline spec.
Cool. But I think i'll wait until version 1.01 of the circuit board, so as to avoid having to tear it apart and cut solder traces like I did on a recent build using 1.0 of a circuit.
Good question. That's how it's designed. Instead of varying the gain of the amplifier stages at every gain step, the switch introduces attenuation between the stages to get the correct net gain. They did this because the amplifier stages are not stable at low gains.
DiyRe Neve "clones" have either class A/B, or class B circuit if power supply sags under dynamic conditions. Another strange thing is calling 1290 preamp 1073 preamp/eq.
You nailed it! All the key factors, and you brought out the 1272 comparison as well. Two gain stages is absolutely not a 1073/1084 preamp; it’s at best a 1272, unless they try to get 70dB gain from 2x stages, at which point it’s completely bastardized. I’m very interested in which transistors of the same part number distort/saturate “the best.” That was news to me but makes sense. The zener based voltage regulator is one I’ve never heard before. Makes sense, and I think it depends on what one would call sounding“better.” Basically almost none of the racked vintage 1073/1084 modules out there have this type of voltage supply. Many of the vintage consoles have had their PSU’s rebuilt to deliver a steady +24V supply regardless of current demand. I want to know what percentage of vintage modules and consoles out there still use this zener regulator topology. But still, it’s an interesting idea.
Thanks very much! You've put your finger on a big difficulty with any clone: which is the "original"? Is it the one from 1971 with an old power supply and electrolytic caps which went bad so long ago it's impossible to test what they sounded like? Or the same desk in the 90s with a cleaner power supply and fresh caps? At the end of the day you do need to make some calls base on what sounds best to you, and that's why we went with the zener/pass-transistor regulator circuit. It adds just at tiny bit more goosh and rounding of transients; that is, a bit more of what the original was known for.
@@PetersonGoodwyn Yep, I bet it sounds “slower” and somewhat“squishy” (whatever that sounds like) compared to a “properly” regulated 24V rail. I can visualize how that would look on a scope though. It will give your clone a unique flavor in a sea of clones. Hey, cool video. I didn’t know about your company prior to this, but now you’re on my radar. I’m a Group DIY guy, so I appreciate the super helpful educational tools you do. I’ll definitely keep you in mind for future needs.
Also, no 31267 XFMR on the line input. Is there any gain/trim adjustment capability? If so, do you just pad the line input signal and run it through the final gain stage at the “trim” block on your diagram?
Good question. No, the line input just engages a balanced pad before the input transformer. So it passes through all the same circuitry as the mic input.
But was it really wise to make it so that the power supply sags in every module? What I mean is that if you were tracking on a Neve, not all channels are going to be drawing tons of current all the time. In other words they're not all on kick drums and such, so the power supply wouldn't sag ALL the time.
That's a great question and gets to the core of the difficulties of trying to replicate part of a console as a standalone unit. In its original format, this preamp would have been part of a larger system (the console) that affected how it sounded. Now we're trying to take out just that one part while recreating the sound of the whole console as much as possible. The power regulator circuitry on the 73P is an attempt to bring the power closer to the original conditions, but it's not perfect. Also I should try to give you a better sense of the scale of what the power regulator does. Much like the transistor distortion, the sag is not present in the linear operating range. It's only when the unit is pushed to extreme levels that the sag begins to affect the sound.
@@PetersonGoodwyn it is the name of the town in England where they were based and they still make under the NKT name. Also a name associated with horse racing. As a designer and tweaker of all things audio I like your approach and you say many things I want to hear about all aspects of this project. Best of luck!
Nice work! but 172 EUR Duties and Taxes + ?Shipping and other crazy fees for one module to EU :( The iron is manufactured in England, so it is more efficient to buy it directly here and avoid paying for shipping and customs duties to the U.S. and back to the EU. Will it be possible to order a kit including PCB, panel, chassis, and Greyhill or full kit without transformers?
I will certainly look into this! I understand it's not ideal getting these things into the UK or EU. But we will be selling some through Link Audion in Germany.
3 preamps are not necessary for different gains. I would prefer only one preamp with a gain control. I don't understand very well this part. May be if I see the schematic I'll figure it out.
Another way to think about it is that there are only 9 transistors in this entire preamp. In even a very simple IC opamp there are 20+. So, while this design does have three amplifier stages, it does not actually have more transistors than a simpler one-stage design.
I'm glad that there are people like you who deep dive like this and explain in such a clear manor. It makes me believe you more than some marketing jargon.
It is full of mistakes made to boost sales. I'm surprised Diyre did this because they have some interesting projects like colour modules, bus compressor, 500 series stuff, support, etc.
I'd love to see design testing videos. Scoping, measuring, trying parts and actual hardcore electronics calculations and stuff. Great vid.
Wow! That's what I'd call a clone! So much details respected! The detail about the PSU is awesome!
I just finished building this. It’s the most cleverly designed kit I’ve ever put together and I’ve build many DIYRE and CAPI designs. Every part of this kit was top shelf. I had a lot of fun building it and the PCBs and build instructions were exquisite. Thank you for a fun weekend!
That's awesome thanks so much!
Oh my god this is amazing. You made so much sense out of things that my mentors described to me and also my experience with 1073 clones throughout the years. Thank you!
That's awesome to hear, thanks so much!
Thank you for presenting this so coherently and in such a down-to-earth manner! Pleasure to follow you. Can't wait to hear the unit
Really appreciate that, thanks!
Wow. Your dedication and passion are palpable. Love that you're selecting parts by ear rather than by spec, too. I've been thinking about putting together a little lunchbox vocal channel strip, the 73P is now at the top of my list. Would love a similar deep dive on the color series!
That's great to hear! Thank you.
Thank you for sharing. It’s good to see the results you described on your blog. The analogy of the layers of sonic varnish was so spot on. I happened to come across it after purchasing a pair of colours and have been waiting to see the finished project.
This looks very promising. You explained the design and function so well in this video. Please feel free to do more videos like this.
Thanks very much, I really appreciate it.
Thanks for making another video like this and love to hear about the design decisions behind your products. Back to working on my G Bus kit now!
Thanks so much for watching!
beautiful explanation - the power supply sagging is especially interesting!
Thank you!
I am so excited for this kit, been meaning to get some 73 style pres, but I am so happy I waited! Definitely going to preorder. Amazing deep dive, please keep them coming. And just saying.. you’ve already got me sold on a 76 style comp when you get around to that too 😉
Awesome thanks! And I appreciate that but I think Hairball Audio already does the 76-style comp as well as can be done.
Best semi-deepdive on the tube. Please keep them coming. I'm still waiting for someone to make a diy'ish 500 series modular console.... I would be 1st in line.
Thanks, I will try to keep them coming! I've also dreamed of a 500-series modular console for 10+ years, but I'll be honest-I don't think the economics work for making it a product. I know that CAPI and Purple and maybe others have had a go at it. There are only so many folks out there with the budget, space, and obsessiveness to build a DIY console.
@@PetersonGoodwyn Maybe a channelstrip would be a cool compromise. Your PreAmp Design, EQP5, OLA5 and 3x Plugin Slots all in one 19“ device. Would be soooo cool!
3 stages of saturation is exciting! It will make everything sound rich.
As a guy with 16 discrete and different microphone preamps in my 500 arsenal, including one I built and designed myself, my favorite thing is showing all my clients that the $200 one sounds as good as some $900 one.
Fascinating! Good luck on your product launch!
Really nice video
Letsgooooooo can't wait to get in on the pre-order for this one!
Fantastic video. Fun and informative. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I love this so much!
Can't wait to have some time and money to get into 500 and make one of these!
Thanks for sharing, it's very educational. I think we really have to look at the design with the original design intent in mind. Transistor circuits are traditionally conceived in a way that most part tolerances can be compensated. There is nothing magic about it. The "character" of a circuit comes from all the shortcomings. The genius is in making the circuit behave musical when it hits the limits.
Very well put!
Such cool video thanks. Big fan of the company and what you do :). Keep it up please. Cheers.
Thanks, will do!
Thanks for the really clear high-level explanation, this kind of video is so valuable!
Glad it was helpful!
So psyched you did this.
Thanks! Us too.
Can't wait to built one! I have your G-Bus and a few other 500 modules, all solid!
I can't wait to get a few of these.
Beautiful work!
Thank you so much 😀
Thats amazing guys!! I cant wait to try a pair of those. And...Im looking forward for a vintage API pre clone next!!
Awesome, thanks! I think CAPI has all bases covered when it comes to the vintage API style.
As soon as I saw the polystyrenes, I knew you were serious about sonics.
I feel comforted knowing that other audio builders also bite their nails.
😬
BEAUTIFUL!!
ANY PLANS TO DO A RACKMOUNT OR DESKTOP VERSION?
Thank you! I would love to do a more full-featured rackmount version someday, well see!
I'm really enjoying your videos. Lots of fascinating stuff. Thanks.
Glad to hear it!
Stoked for these!
Would love to do an in depth build of one of these!
I’ll have to save up to get one to go with my AML clone. I can see some differences based on your explanation even with my limited circuit knowledge. I’d love to hear more break downs of circuitry if you’re up for it!
This is awesome. :)
Hey, thanks!
Nice work!
Thanks!
Awesome video !
You should make an official announcement post for this on Gearspace.
Done! Thanks for the reminder
@@PetersonGoodwyn Awesome! I assume you were probably intending to make a post.. I kind of jumped the gun.. Got excited!!
hoping so bad that this is the first step leading to a 1073 Clone with the full EQ? Would be epic!!
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This video made me respect and love a 1073 even more than I already do ! We’re can I buy this 500 series ?
can't wait to hear this!
can't wait for you to try it!
Great walkthrough, I learnt a lot from this. It would be great to see how modern summing mixers work, are they worth it?
Thanks! And thanks for the suggestion. Explaining how summing mixers work would be very easy. Determining if they are worth it would be very hard ;)
What an incredible video for a deep dive on the circuitry of the 1073. Do you happen to sell these premade?
Beautiful. I'll have to get a kit.
Thank you for this. 👏👍
Super video. Thank you very much
If you are willing to do more deep dive please don't even hesitate !
any chance we'll see a matching EQ at some point?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This is just wonderful! Any chance we get a 1084eq?
Looks great! Do you think you'll do an EQ that can insert in before the preamp's output? I use Sound Skulptor's version just about daily and I love it. Really cool to see your take on it!
Can you say what your main application of the Tantalums caps were?
I'm using NOS film and some Soviet paper-in-oil caps for a preamp design project and am considering Tantalums in feedback part of the op-amp circuitry and in some power decoupling.
These designs used tantalums for A/C coupling. Feedback capacitors were polystyrene and power decoupling were electrolytic by and large.
@@PetersonGoodwyn thank you 🙏
Is the soundskulptor 73 a 2 stage version?
yep
Thx for sharing. I'm sure of a nice design. However, does it sound exactly neve 1073?.
I've heard warm audio 73 with charnhill transformers, vs. Neve 73LB 500 series. Neve sounded better. It would be nice to hear the difference . Thx.
Are we going to get a demo of the unit anytime soon?
Hi Peterson. The web page for the 73 isn’t showing the comments. I’d really like to know what others are saying. Thx
Thanks for releasing this. when will this be available to buy?
Thanks! We'll have more stock in September 2024.
This looks great! Would I be able to replace current transformers with my vintage Marinair i/o transformers?
Thanks! I'm not positive about that. The old transformers will definitely work in the circuit, but I'm not positive that they are the correct dimensions to slip right into place. You could check the dimensions and pinout of the VTB 1148 and VTB 9045 in the Carnhill datasheets to confirm: www.barryrudolph.com/recall/manuals/carnhill_design_guide.pdf
@@PetersonGoodwyn , okay. Thank you!
Well, this vintage gear snobbery is really stupid, people buy those old pieces or knock-offs while their music is crap, but if I ever decide to buy a Neve preamp it will be because of this video. Magnificent. 🖖
Why go with the carnhill output transformer as opposed to something that is closer to the actual marinair transformers like sowter does?
14:34
Really amazing project ! how would it differ form an AML or BAE version of the 1073 for example? The accuracy of teh PSU and transistors?
Great question. Those are also excellent preamps. The 73P and AML are very similar-the main differences are that the 73P has the line in switch, DI, and trim knob. The BAE is different from both in that it's 1272-style (two-stages).
its from the seventies, not from the sixities. most modules are about 50 years old not sixty. then in a typical 80series neve the input module doesn't just go to a passive bus (except bcm). THE typical 80series sound is input module, routing module, output gain module (all active 6pairs of xfmr) for a mixdown or recording over active group modules.
You're absolutely right, 70's is correct, I misspoke. Some of the schematics we referenced were drawn in '69 but didn't see the light of day until '70. And thanks for the additional insight in to the 80-series signal path.
What consequences have merging on the same heatsink the output transistor with the regulator one?
I dont know much but I try to separate PSU from audio as much as possible.
Does it have any benefit to correlate heat variance from both paths or is it just a compromise of 500 series limited size?
Keep up the work! Love your company and really dig all the documentation you give us 🫶
No consequences that we can hear or measure. Using the big transistors and heatsink means both run very cool. So neither transistor is getting into a thermal range where performance is significantly different from the baseline spec.
Awesome! How does it compare to the GAP 73 clone?
Nice. If this was available a few years back I probably would have gotten it instead of a rackmount 1073 clone.
Cool. But I think i'll wait until version 1.01 of the circuit board, so as to avoid having to tear it apart and cut solder traces like I did on a recent build using 1.0 of a circuit.
Woohoo!
I wish I wasn't poor! I need 2 of these to start, and then 2 more!
Will there be an EQ kit?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Oh decisions... Do I want this for the 73 vibe or a CP5 with Royal Blue for an 81 vibe? I know the correct answer is both but...
Great video btw.
learned a lot. please do a shelford clone!
You should do videos on how stuff is made like tires and engines
I don't know anything about those things. I can barely keep my 2007 Honda Fit running. I appreciate your confidence, but I'll stick to audio :)
Where can I hear audio samples of this pre in a practical recording studio environment?
The loss thats occuring between the stages, why is that happening?
Good question. That's how it's designed. Instead of varying the gain of the amplifier stages at every gain step, the switch introduces attenuation between the stages to get the correct net gain. They did this because the amplifier stages are not stable at low gains.
What about de Golden Age Audio Premier PRE-73?
what about the motorola 2N3055?
i need it
Is the Marconi knob metal or plastic? I replaced the plastic ones with metal on the Sound Skulptor clones I built.
This ^ ?
Who makes metal Marconi knobs?
@@dodgedforgottenn CAPI sells them.
Cool vidéo! Thanks!
Looks very nice!!!!
DiyRe Neve "clones" have either class A/B, or class B circuit if power supply sags under dynamic conditions. Another strange thing is calling 1290 preamp 1073 preamp/eq.
Will there be a European distributor? I would buy it instantly, but the extra cost is huge 😢
yes! linkaudiodesign.de is going to carry them!
@@PetersonGoodwyn Fantastic! 😎
@@PetersonGoodwyn Uau you made my day! I hope that happens soon. You are the best, keep doing it! 🔥🧨
Dude I was just about to get a pair of AML's but shipping from the UK is nuts... I guess I will be patient for this instead
This looks like a more elegant design in terms of board placement and ease of construction. I can't wait to get these.
THANKS A LOT
Happy to help!
good job。
You nailed it! All the key factors, and you brought out the 1272 comparison as well. Two gain stages is absolutely not a 1073/1084 preamp; it’s at best a 1272, unless they try to get 70dB gain from 2x stages, at which point it’s completely bastardized.
I’m very interested in which transistors of the same part number distort/saturate “the best.” That was news to me but makes sense. The zener based voltage regulator is one I’ve never heard before. Makes sense, and I think it depends on what one would call sounding“better.” Basically almost none of the racked vintage 1073/1084 modules out there have this type of voltage supply. Many of the vintage consoles have had their PSU’s rebuilt to deliver a steady +24V supply regardless of current demand. I want to know what percentage of vintage modules and consoles out there still use this zener regulator topology. But still, it’s an interesting idea.
Thanks very much! You've put your finger on a big difficulty with any clone: which is the "original"? Is it the one from 1971 with an old power supply and electrolytic caps which went bad so long ago it's impossible to test what they sounded like? Or the same desk in the 90s with a cleaner power supply and fresh caps? At the end of the day you do need to make some calls base on what sounds best to you, and that's why we went with the zener/pass-transistor regulator circuit. It adds just at tiny bit more goosh and rounding of transients; that is, a bit more of what the original was known for.
@@PetersonGoodwyn Yep, I bet it sounds “slower” and somewhat“squishy” (whatever that sounds like) compared to a “properly” regulated 24V rail. I can visualize how that would look on a scope though. It will give your clone a unique flavor in a sea of clones.
Hey, cool video. I didn’t know about your company prior to this, but now you’re on my radar. I’m a Group DIY guy, so I appreciate the super helpful educational tools you do. I’ll definitely keep you in mind for future needs.
Also, no 31267 XFMR on the line input. Is there any gain/trim adjustment capability? If so, do you just pad the line input signal and run it through the final gain stage at the “trim” block on your diagram?
Good question. No, the line input just engages a balanced pad before the input transformer. So it passes through all the same circuitry as the mic input.
But was it really wise to make it so that the power supply sags in every module? What I mean is that if you were tracking on a Neve, not all channels are going to be drawing tons of current all the time. In other words they're not all on kick drums and such, so the power supply wouldn't sag ALL the time.
That's a great question and gets to the core of the difficulties of trying to replicate part of a console as a standalone unit. In its original format, this preamp would have been part of a larger system (the console) that affected how it sounded. Now we're trying to take out just that one part while recreating the sound of the whole console as much as possible. The power regulator circuitry on the 73P is an attempt to bring the power closer to the original conditions, but it's not perfect. Also I should try to give you a better sense of the scale of what the power regulator does. Much like the transistor distortion, the sag is not present in the linear operating range. It's only when the unit is pushed to extreme levels that the sag begins to affect the sound.
@@PetersonGoodwyn Sure. It's all a compromise.
Nice!
Thanks!
Do you ship to the UK? lol
of course! we will also have an EU distributor at linkaudiodesign.de
@@PetersonGoodwyn awesome
cheers
Once I overcome the onslaught of $400 emergencies, I will own one or more of these and I will be happy.
WOW! Pleaaaaase set up an european sales channel :)
Linkaudiodesign.de will have them!
@@PetersonGoodwyn Great news! Keep up the good work!
its really a 1290 and not a 1073 which included eq
The Carnhill input transformer sounds good, but the Carnhill output transformer sounds bad.
The output transformer must be a marinair transformer.
...and then there is a 2N3055 in the line amp branded 'NEWMARKET' hahaha...funny somehow.
It is a funny name. It was a subsidiary of Pye when transistors truly were a new market.
@@PetersonGoodwyn it is the name of the town in England where they were based and they still make under the NKT name. Also a name associated with horse racing.
As a designer and tweaker of all things audio I like your approach and you say many things I want to hear about all aspects of this project. Best of luck!
@@PetersonGoodwyn Interesting, like Pye from the Pye Compressors?
Nice work! but 172 EUR Duties and Taxes + ?Shipping and other crazy fees for one module to EU :( The iron is manufactured in England, so it is more efficient to buy it directly here and avoid paying for shipping and customs duties to the U.S. and back to the EU. Will it be possible to order a kit including PCB, panel, chassis, and Greyhill or full kit without transformers?
I will certainly look into this! I understand it's not ideal getting these things into the UK or EU. But we will be selling some through Link Audion in Germany.
Saludos. Has tutoriales en español por fa...
you are wrong, Carnhill never made Lo 1166..never, Carnhil only made input transformer and their output transformer does not sound same as lo1166r,
3 preamps are not necessary for different gains. I would prefer only one preamp with a gain control. I don't understand very well this part. May be if I see the schematic I'll figure it out.
Then a discrete Neve design is not for you 💁
Another way to think about it is that there are only 9 transistors in this entire preamp. In even a very simple IC opamp there are 20+. So, while this design does have three amplifier stages, it does not actually have more transistors than a simpler one-stage design.