Is Smoking Inherently Immoral? (Trent Horn)
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- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2024
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Trent Horn and Matt Fradd talk about the morality of smoking. Trent talks about his troubles with the morality of smoking based on Natural Law
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Sounds like a debate needs to happen between Trent Horn and Jimmy Akin on this.
Yeah, we as Catholics need more to disagree internally about. (I kid, I kid. It would be fun.)
But I believe Jimmy only has advocated pipe smoking. Not sure what his position is on cigars and cigarettes.
This would be great
@@TheJmlew11There isn't much difference between pipe smoking and cigar smoking. Both are smoked for the aroma and flavor and neither are smoked for inhaling smoke into the lungs in order to get a buzz or fix. That being said Pope Benedict smoke cigarettes and several other Catholics including saints enjoyed all varieties of tobacco
Forget vegans... I've never met a (TLM) cigar smoker who didn't insist on telling me how moral it is...
Truth!
Any substance abuse is a sin of gluttony.
…you mean usually in response to a teetotaler who first insists that it’s wrong?
I’ve seldom met anyone who, unprompted, begins to defend tobacco use… but if I had a dime for every person who’s gone out of their way to making remarks objecting to smoking and make me feel like I’m bad, I’d have enough cash to fund Thursday’s year-end bonus
@@its-thom how about the guy complaining about trads "forbidding what is permissable" simultaneously raising "serious concerns" on cigar smoking.
I've literally never had someone come up to me and unprompted start defending cigar smoking....As a matter of fact, I've never had anyone unprompted just start talking cigars in general with me.
What are you doing to get people to defend smoking to you?
I am with Trent. So many Catholics act like it's a virtue to smoke.
It's definitely not a virtue, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's sinful either. The church has never condemned smoking to my knowledge except Marijuana
@@thejcatholicIt has never condemned drinking wine either. And alcoholic is one thing and drinks alcohol for pleasure on occasion or what have you is not problematic. Yet even wine has suspected carcinogens. Onions have suspected carcinogens.
@@thejcatholic True
And, unfortunately, Matt is one of them.
@@NickyMetropolis1313 Unfortunately, among most people, it's a lot easier to develop a nicotine addiction than a dependency on alcohol. Nicotine is a stimulant, and many smokers enjoy the feeling of being alert throughout the day. Alcohol is a depressant, and very few people want to feel drowsy throughout the day, particularly employed people. Consequently, more people become chain-smokers than alcoholics.
It's not that complicated. Moderation is a virtue. Excess is a vice. This applies to smoking, drinking and all sorts of activities. There is simply no Biblical or theological basis for the prohibition of either one.
I’m 34 years old and have lived with progressive interstitial lung disease for the last 10 years. I only smoked a bit as a teenager so it’s probably not the cause but I can safely say that lung disease is NOT something you want to mess around with. I see no benefits to smoking.
It is written, all things are permissible but not all things are beneficial, food for the stomach and stomach for food but I shall be a slave to neither.
@@TempleofChristMinistries Amen
Its true you can have " unhealthy" food in moderation as long as its offset with healthier choices, it will not do any damage to your genes or your general health.. problem is nicotene creates lifelong addicts so its not a matter of choice to eat something or not or willpowers or abstinence but a virtual compulsion fueled by changes in brain and body because of nicotene . its a poison and you by smoking are poisoning others around you who have no choice its a disgusting habit
@@heartofpuregold I agree with what you were saying but is it immoral.
@@TempleofChristMinistries my comment disappeared
Subjecting other people to second hand smoke because it’s your own vice is immoral
Amen brother!
I wish that more people would vape instead of smoking. Unfortunately, many smokers say that "traditional coffin nails" contain more nicotine, so they're more satisfying than e-cigs.
@@Scorch1028 vaping can also be a great step in weaning off of nicotine
Nothing says (performative) masculinity quite like a good cigar...
They are relaxing. Not everyone is an Andrew Tate about it lol
@@friendlyolbum Thank you for your advice. I shall keep an eye out for these non-AT cigar smokers in future.
I smoke cigars only on special occasions. When the sun comes up, when the sun goes down, when I hear a dog bark,etc.etc.
I smoke about 15 cigars a day, and I inhale.
I heard Freud smoked 20 cigars a day and it cost him his lower jaw
I hope Trent gives us an expansive video on cigar smoking with proper reaserch sources and stuff. I'd love to hear it.
I usually find it unpersuasive to use scientific studies to bolster moral arguments. Is it immoral for me to spend more than 15 minutes in the sun during peak UV without slathering myself in SPF 50? Should I reject as immoral a diet heavy in red meat because “studies” tell me to prefer plants for my own health and for the environment?
Besides, cigar smoking can contribute greatly to conviviality, which is great for the soul.
I largely agree with you but I do think that there's a clear difference between minor sunburns or eating red meat and smoking cigars/cigarettes in terms of overall health risks.
@@IntegralistRevival I have read studies proving 2 cigars a day have no negative health effects. I’ve read countless studies in the benefits of red meat (contra the mainstream narrative). Or what about sleep? Is it immoral for me to routinely sleep less than 7 hours a night, or fail to wear blue light blocking glasses begging 3 hours before bed? Besides, all these studies tend to implicitly reduce us to our bodies and don’t (can’t) take into consideration our hylomorphic makeup. For these and many more reasons I just find using scientific studies a good basis for moral judgments. God bless you brother. Now GO SMOKE A CIGAR. 😂😂
@@IntegralistRevivalNo there isn't because smoking one or two cigars per day is a minor risk. Just like getting too much sun is a minor risk overall.
As I have said elsewhere the list of Saints who have smoked tobacco products of all sorts is very long. Smoking cigars for example generally relieves stress and helps in relaxation. Well the number one killer by far is heart disease from too much stress.
There are increasing studies showing how sugar is bad for you. This means that every Christmas party when we eat sugar cookies or other variety we are engaging in a unhealthy behavior that can contribute to gluttony and also cause cancer and/or diabetes. These arguments against smoking really don't stick. Red wine has suspected carcinogens as do onions yes onions. None of these health arguments really stick the landing.
That's what im sayinnnn
It is not what goes in that defiles a man but what comes out
It’s the effects of smoke on others who are not smoking. All those combustion products are not good for people
The fact that the Catechism speaks of moderation when it speaks of tobacco use (as well as alcohol use) means that it's not intrinsically disordered. There can't be a moderate amount of murder or adultery because those things are disordered and thus always and everywhere wrong.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s intrinsically immoral, but I also think it’s likely that many people who tote the “moderation” line are actually exceeding it.
I mean, even a daily cigar seems quite excessive. I also think having a glass of whiskey or fast food every evening is probably excessive.
@@Deuterocomical I agree. Honestly I don’t know anybody who smokes who isn’t an addict. I’ve met folks who can moderate alcohol, but I’ve never met anyone who smoked who could take it or leave it. You’re either smoking everyday (or more) or not at all. At least that’s my anecdotal experience.
@@christopherponsford8385I smoked socially when I was in college, and did it in moderation. I was never addicted.
@@christopherponsford8385almost every cigar smoker I personally know smokes only occasionally, usually when men get together.
@@christopherponsford8385 I smoke about 1 cigar a month, so maybe Im biased because I think I have mastered moderation lol
Exactly. The issue lies in what is moderate for the individual. It will certainly vary a lot based on tons of factors. Knowing where to stop can be hard if one already has a habit of engaging in the near occasion of sin. It would be better to avoid such things even if they aren't intrinsically immoral if you have a bad history to go with it.
I love a good cigar or smoking pipes. It’s not an addictive activity, it’s not giving you any high, it’s just an activity. Most cigar and pipe smokers are not dying sooner, because they don’t inhale. Also, many doctors say HPV viruses are more dangerous for mouth cancers. Look, my grandmother died at 99 after needing 10 years of help because dementia. Is that the way to go? Anyway, at the end of the day it is no one’s business other than God in relation to me. I know I’m a good man, so I don’t worry one bit about this.
People have been cooking over open fires like forever, that’s natural law. Smoke doesn’t matter because we’re all coming to a certain end anyway. Fear of that should worry you more.
It's relaxing!
All tobacco contains nicotine and nicotine is addictive. It is an addictive activity, and any addiction is a form of slavery. You can lie to yourself and claim it isn't addictive, but don't lie to other people. Also, people who cook over open fires die earlier than people who don't.
Yes, we are all going to die, but dying not because of but with a disordered worldly attachment can affect the state you die in. And encouraging others to die in that state is something you don't want to do. It's the thing that it you should be afraid of.
I disagree. It always gives me a high -- but its less potent than the high I used to get from weed
lol Trent was totally avoiding the cannabis question
I wonder how you would defend drinking alcohol (a poison) along the lines of a general thought like Trent’s initial proposition. It’s clearly allowed in scripture, has negative health effects, etc
Sugar has negative health effects. It's a rabbit hole. The test ought to be whether your body actually utilizes it for anything positive (calories) or is it a pure vice. Even good and necessary things in excess are sinful (gluttony).
@@flamingdragon3861 Seems to be more the idea of losing yourself to the addiction is the sin, putting the sin before God.
Some limited alcohol intake (particularly in red wine) can actually reduce stress.
I'd say an occasional drink 🍷🍻 or two, fine. Drunkenness EVER, bad.
@@kdmdlocigar smoking and pipe smoking and cigarette smoking absolutely 100% reduce stress.
Alcohol, smoked meats, plastics, certain cosmetics, plenty of day-to-day things are carcinogenic. It may be unwise to willingly expose oneself to it, it can be imprudent, but sinful? I doubt it. Consequences don't define the morality of a behavior.
I smoked for years and I wasn’t going to church for years which I now regret . I kept praying to God to please help me stop smoking because I became a lector at church ⛪️ and I felt it was wrong to smoke and standing in the alter . God answered my prayer 🙏 after the 4th covid vaccine 💉 I have because allergic to alcohol, nicotine and cannabis which I was using for my fibromyalgia. I now thank God because I can stand on the alter clean and without vices but I’m also allergic to many meds that I need for my different medical conditions. I just say Jesus Christ help me 🙏 regarding the medical pills but I go forward with the help of God 🙏
That's weird. I've used cannabis for about 10 years I'm in my 60s. I think I'm getting allergic to it. It's hard to find cannabis where I live now, they have legal gummies. I really seem to be allergic to them. It gives me hives.
I started smoking cigarettes and drinking about that time. I NEVER drink now but I'm done with cigarettes for sure. If I get the urge to smoke. I do a one hitter of tobacco. It seems to help. I'm so done with smoking, I don't care if it's sinful or not. It's a horrible habit I don't want!
@@Whereempathsgather all this happened after 4th covid vaccine. I didn’t know I had dormant urticaria and for 3 yrs it’s 24/7. I’m also allergic to any med that can help for the chronic urticaria. I finally found an allergist that found the problem because nobody knew for 2 years what was wrong and I have suffered a lot. There was only 1 option left of a monthly injection of Xiolar and last injection I almost passed out or dying because my breathing stopped for a few seconds and I started hearing things far away . Now I have to avoid the triggers such as sun, heat, spicy 🌶️ foods and can’t take a bath with hot water. It’s gotten better but not gone yet . It’s suppose to go back dormant eventually but when only God knows. It’s been hard. All those things activate the urticaria. I used cannabis for my fibromyalgia and worked very well but after a while I would break out in hives and itch all over . I had to change all the meds I was taking because would also activate my urticaria. I’m down to bare minimum and my fibromyalgia is strong . I just keep praying and having faith that it will go back dormant
Any substance abuse is a sin gluttony.
@@les2997 yes I know that but I needed to stop completely because I felt it was wrong of me as a lector at church to get up on the alter with a vice .
@@soniatorres5227 I never took the jab.... They would have to hog tie me.
They had me on antidepressants for 30 years. 5 attempts because the drugs worked against me. Cannabis help me 100%.
If that's a sin, I'm a huge sinner and God will deal with me later. It's natural, people think it's like alcohol. Alcohol ruined my life! Lost a job because cannabis but it was fine for me to be a drunk, smh! I could go on and on!!
I've been a Christian since I was 12 years old. A bunch of stiffed neck people I run in to. We are all sinners, get the log out of your own eye before you judge people.
I'll pray for you! Don't eat sugar...one of the worse thing you can do, especially, forms of arthritis. Detox with lemons. I also use vinegar in a glass of ice water. It helps with stomach issues.🙏🙏🙏🙏 For you.
I smoked a cigar while watching UFC 307 this past weekend… guess I’m screwed…
😂😂😂
But why would you spend your time doing that?
@@michaellemmenrelaxation is good and everybody should have hobbies
@michaellemmen because it's entertainment. 🤷 Which before you say it, is not sinful.
@@Adam-ke6uh based. 🗿🗿🗿
Are we really making the claim that boxing and UFC are sinful? So ridiculous. Martial arts teach young men the responsibility of being able to use violence, this is a fundamental issue in manhood. Just because something has risk doesn’t mean it’s sinful. The (male) human body was made for combat, higher brow ridges, thicker bones, faster reaction times and the weight distribution of a male body is optimized for warfare. Such things aren’t present when it comes to cigarettes or other smokables. Martial arts can be a good exercise as they’re mentally stimulating as well.
Yes!
In the Age of Christendom, we had a strong tradition of combat competition between boys and between young men (even if some persons objected to some specific sports such as jousting)
Combat sports are not novel modern inventions.
According to the Church, combat sports are not inherently evil, nor is watching them, but many Catholic theologians have discussed whether prize fighting is sinful. Something like the UFC itself could definitely be considered sinful, even if the combat sports used in it are not by design evil. Self Defense is good. Some wars are morally acceptable. Getting enjoyment from and betting on two people beating the crap out of each other walks a line that some theologians believe to be immoral. Are you enjoying the skill involved, or the violence? Are you training combat sports specifically to hurt people, or simply to be fit and be able to defend yourself? The intentions always matter. "Made for combat" doesn't necessitate being used for combat. We were "made for combat" in order to protect each other and hunt food, not to hurt each other.
@@holdintheaces7468 I agree that the intentions matter, I suppose the question is where does one draw the line. Is one glorifying violence when one eats a chicken wing? Arguably, more violence was done to enable that enjoyment than allowing to prize fighters to duke it out. Same argument for a salad as plants are also living things, not making an argument for veganism, just that I don’t see many people liking a sport merely because there’s violence involved, rather the violence heightens the need for skill and ability. Some individuals may like it for violence’s own sake but that is an issue between them and God and therefore I don’t believe that is cause enough to condemn the enjoyment of a combat sport.
There was a christian judo practitioner who was disciplined in the olympics for making a sign of the cross, should he not been a practitioner of said sport?
@@EUSA1776 Come now. Those aren't analogous situations at all and you know it.
Don't take my argument personally. I wasn't saying you were sinful in enjoying them (I didn't even state that it's definitively sinful, merely pointed out that some theologians have argued it can be). But you have to admit that there are most definitely people out there that enjoy things like the UFC solely for the violence. If the violence didn't play a role, fencing would be more popular.
I literally would be a zombie without tobacco. Lesson here is: be careful with prescription drugs because you might just need tobacco and red bull in opium doses just to get out of bed.
Zyn my man
@@hamie7624 I tried, there is something in tobacco that adds something extra. Nicotine comes to the brain faster when inhaled. Sorry, I am not making excuses for myself, I am just trying to describe my state of mind as honestly as possible.
@@DumbellGoblin I didn’t smoke anything, but there are some positive effects of smoking tobacco.
Snus is tobacco. Better than zyn. But you will not be able to stop.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
To quote Kipling, "A woman is only a woman, but a good cigar is a smoke".
If smoking cigars is immoral, why haven’t the bishops condemned it? ;)
That’s the biggest dagger in the inmorality argument. Tobacco use, and smoking, has been around for Catholics for several hundred years. It’s not a new or novel moral issue. And yet the Church has been clearly permissive about it. The Church has never condemned smoking or tobacco, the theologians and manualists never decried it, and many saints, clerics, and popes smoked and used tobacco.
If this were a new issue, then yes the question would be more open. But the argument from silence is very strong when it’s been the silence is permissive for hundreds of years now.
@@CatholicSamurai That argument cuts both ways For most of history nobody knew how bad smoking was for you. It has always be wrong to abuse your body and your health, not only for practical reasons but also because our bodies are gifts from God that ought to be respected.
The argument from silence doesn't work because most of that silence happened before the better information about smoking's negative effects came out. In fact, the Church was equally silent during the push to eliminate smoking after its negative effects were exposed.
This isn't to say that I know for certain smoking is always and everywhere immoral, but recent research makes it a new issue and has opened a question that we must work to answer with faith and reason.
There have been several studies that show that headgear when boxing doesn't protect you, in fact they encourage more severe concussions.
I confess it in confession
Why? Pope Benedict loved Marlboros.
Pope St Pius X smoked
@@MrMustang13Didn't he live hundreds of years before the discovery of the Americas?
(I joke)
@@Malygosblues no, like the last Pope Benedict lol the one before Pope Francis
Edit: I see your joke lmao I get it lolol
I have seen plenty of data that indicate cigars, pipes, and chewing tobacco significantly increase your risks for mouth cancer.
This episode sucked
@@georgekaftan2000 maybe the one thing I somewhat agree with Trent on
I think addiction is the issue? For instance what about anything with added sugar?
Sure, that’s true in extreme cases. But we’re talk about smoking specifically. And at least with sugar it naturally occurs in the body, and you need some. Smoking literally has no intrinsic value or need
@@thewalruswasjason101average sugar intake is way worse than moderate smoking
Some cancers are worse than others. Lung cancer is specifically one of the worst; mouth cancer is moderate and skin is one of the best. At our current technological capabilities, lung cancer will prematurely take 45% of victims within 12 months. After a decade, only 10% of lung cancer victims will survive. Whereas skin cancer can be safely removed in 30 minutes after scheduling a dermatologist appointment the next day, if caught early enough.
Drinking and eating drugs recreationally will not give you lung cancer, but smoking will. Eating and drinking drugs is a natural thing for us, so much so that God even made us a dedicated organ in our body to safely ingest toxic liquids or solids: the liver. He didn't do this for toxic gases.
Quite literally nothing but air and in some cases warm water vapor is supposed to be in our lungs, they are an incredibly fragile organ. And even warm water vapor for too long a time is bad. Hot water vapor is always bad (what Juuls et al. do).
If you are properly smoking cigars, ie. you don't inhale into your lungs, then fine. Throat (esophageal) cancer *is* worse than mouth cancer, but it's still *much* better than lung cancer. But then I must say, high moderate risk to your body (smoke going into one's esophagus) vs. completely natural and safe recreational use (drinking alcohol or marijuana, eating nicotine or marijuana) should be an obvious calculus as to which is on the definitively bad side vs. definitively neutral side.
What that means: If you truly want to properly smoke cigars, then fine. But what absolutely should not be done is portray properly smoking cigars as a cool thing to audiences. Quite plainly it is irresponsible. This reminds me of back when society was pushing cigarette use as cool and even good.
And I also must question what % of regular cigar smokers are even smoking correctly (not inhaling into lungs). I have talked to cigar users before who basically imply that "yeah, sometimes I'll inhale a little into my lungs just for some extra nicotine," which is certainly bad.
With all of that being said, of course, any substance addiction is a sin. Regulated recreational use of alcohol, marijuana, and nicotine (and coffee and tea, etc) is neutrally fine, but developing an addiction to is alcohol or coffee is wrong. As well if one is eating or drinking too high a dosage of recreational drugs in a session such that they are being poisoned, it is wrong.
I have been smoking cigars for 10 years and anytime I have accidentally inhaled smoke into my lungs the smoke is so thick that you immediately call off and choke. The smoke is not thin like a cigarette and is actually not designed to be inhaled. For those who can inhale the cigar smoke I don't know about them. Smoking the occasional cigar or two per day is a minor risk just like sitting out in the sun everyday for 20 minutes is a minor risk. Do you know what is a major risk? Extreme stress and being overworked. That is a major risk and that's why heart disease is by far the biggest killer in America yet again. Heart disease and bad food and being overweight of which the majority of Americans now are.
That line of thinking begs the question whether receiving the Blood of Christ is immoral, since its accidents contain the poison of alcohol.
I don’t understand why you reference a “natural law” argument for homosexuality, but then you are talking about the purpose for which certain body parts were created. Just use a theological argument, it is more coherent.
The Bible contains multiple references to unnamed plants routinely burned as incense in spiritual contexts.
Matt, this was brutal to watch as you kept interrupting Trent and changing the topic.
The most shocking part of this video is that australians call peppers Capsicum
I don't think smoking is sinful per se. But it can become sinful if 1) you are making others uncomfortable with the smoke (Mt 5, 21-22 ; Romans 14,13 ; Gn 13,8) CCC 2284, 2) you put yourself at risk for addictive use (thou shalt not kill, CCC 2288) 3) you become attached to wordly things to the point you spend your money, time and heart in smoking (Dt 6,5 ; CCC 2405)
Thou shall not murder. Killing is fine murder is not.
spot on
Now it’s getting ridiculous 😂
I think the smoking part is a good debate to have- i could get on board with it being considered some sort of venial sin. But UFC and boxing? Considering that sinful is a horrible take
My personal opinion is that anything that you smoke can be harmful to anyone else around you, whereas when they were talking about alcohol, alcohol can be peer pressured but when you drink you’re not making anyone else drunk, it’s up to the consumer so we have more of a choice there, I dunno 🤷♀️
Tell that yo the abusive mother who gets drunk and beats her kids or husband
Lives have been and continue to be ruined by alcohol. Theres a reason AA exists
I don't believe that smoking is inherently immoral. When it comes to substances its the abuse of the substance I regard as immoral. I define abuse as the use of the substance to satisfy a disordered desire. I havn't really delved deeply into this line of thought, but that's my surface level analysis.
People drank wine or beer because the water was so bad
I only smoke Liturgical: Good smelling incense!
Lets be honest, it's immoral to smoke and certainly to support it. Matt's 100% biased. Dude has a business on it.
One of the worst aspects of smoking is that is slows the body's recovery time with illness and injury. You would think that nobody would have started smoking after the COVID pandemic. Unfortunately, many dullards have taken up a smoking habit that makes them more vulnerable to dying from COVID, a few years after the pandemic was over.
As a Christian of over 50 plus years……I don’t think smoking is immoral/sin ……used to smoke myself years ago but quit because a preacher told a funny quip about smoking…..it’s a habit (ie) cigarettes……cigars are a different matter I suppose, basically it’s up to the smoker and his/hers own conscience?
I think smoking is bad. It's not just about the person but the family members who they harm via second-hand smoke. My friends dad smoked all throughout her childhood - she always had issues with breathing that disappeared the second she moved out. Same with my dad. His father smoked, and he had constant issues with asthma. all of that disappeared the moment he moved out to get married. I think we just don't hold this predominantly male hobby to the same standard because dudes don't want to admit the negative affect they have on the health of those around them.
I'm gonna say Trents pretty wrong here. His argument is similar to saying it's immoral to eat lobster or another animal. Or to use salt because it has to be found and impacts cholesterol, its just knit picking stuff to label as immoral or sinful.
Not to mention, his argument or "lack of justification" is exactly what fundamentalists use to condemn alcohol. Whereas, the catholic faith absolutely does not condemn alcohol consumption nor do most christian denominations, because it is not inherently immoral
False, salt is a necessary ingredient to our lives. You’re coping be you don’t want to give up your vice. Why don’t you man up and be a little stronger
I'm listening to this having just bought a few cigars and donuts holes...
Moderation is key, if something like Alcoholic beverages, which are both purely recreational and carcinogenic are are allowed within moderation I fail to see any signifigant moral difference with cigars which are purely recreational and carcinogenic.
Great topic. Thanks
When it comes right down to it, if you "overthink" it, everything is sinful , especially when it is overly done. But when you sit and analyze and think and think , you fall into the vicious cycle . You can't even watch TV or videos much less RUclips without seeing a photo that is inappropriate ... so is opening our eyes to the world sinful ? Just depends how much you think about it .
I like Trent, but he gives far to much deference to scientific studies and makes an unfounded leap that cigar smoking is bad based on studies to do with cigarettes
"Yes, gluttony does apply to substance abuse. It's a destructive sin that can lead to addiction, decline in health & even death. The sin's impact on one’s will & life can manifest in behaviors such as substance abuse, making it relevant to the context of addiction & overindulgence"
Fr. Robert Spitzer
Magis Center
My stance is a bit complicated and I’m not good at summing it up. I am fine with Natural Tobacco use. But habitual or addictive use to me is Sin. We have to be managers of our facilities. I also feel we can’t use it for escapism. But rather just something to just do because you want to just do it. It also has to be legal usage.
Stimulants and depressants both limit the fullness of consciousness. Those who argue that stimulants like nicotine bring the fullness of consciousness out are missing the fact that they essentially make one inpulsive and risk exposing you to vices of impulse more. They should be used with calculation like on a long car ride to safely stay awake or to treat extreme pain.
How about socially as well?
Nicotine doesn't make anyone "impulsive," that is a really bizarre claim.
@@evankalis including caffeine ?
@InFideScientiam I suppose you impulsively smoke? Even then, that's a matter of discipline, which if you are incapable of doing, you should quit. Don't blame the cigar or cigarette for your inability to control yourself.
@@LoganJP0120 You are replying to the wrong person, I agree with your take lol
Thanks Matt and Trent, may I add a personal point, a close family member of mine smoked all her life (moderately, 20 cigarettes = 2days) and could not completely give them up due to anxiety and nervousness when trying to do so. Sometimes it may be virtually impossible to quit due to a persons disposition.
As someone who has struggled with the vice of cannabis smoking, I’m really disappointed in Trent for completely ignoring the question.
I guess some people want to smoke and drink because they think it makes them look cool?
Pipe smoker here. To my understanding, nicotine isn't the problem as it's only a stimulant (like caffeine) and isn't in fact dangerous (in proper dosage, like anything). It's the other things found in tobacco leaves that (when lit and inhaled) are dangerous. The nicotine creates the addiction, which brings one back to the tobacco thus exposing him to more harm from the other things found in the tobacco leaves. If someone knows more than me, feel free to correct me.
If you have to question if it’s moral, then maybe you just shouldn’t do it. You don’t have to question buying your wife flowers or helping an old lady cross the road or stopping to help someone who is injured. There’s no question if those are good things to do. If you have to question, then just avoid it.
I have a problem with the term it being "immoral". Are we trying to adapt to the world accepted norms? If you're Catholic or "Christian" you should be holding yourself to a higher standard. Since Protestants generally don't believe or follow the "saints", and Catholics do, aren't we supposed to be pursuing sainthood. I don't recall any saints being smokers. And to be realistic, smoking is done to "replace" something which is now directing us away from from God. I grew up surrounded by smoking aunts and uncles, most of which died from illnesses relaated to smoking. Thank God my dad gave up smoking before I was born. The only smoker I had in my family (and I did not know it until late in life) was my uncle Al who had to be the "cleanest" smoker on the planet because I never smelled any hint of it on him. One important reason for this, most likely, is that he was a "social" smoker and according to my dad , may have smoked a pack per week. Smoking is done to fulfill some pleasurable "need" and again this is not a path to God. It is also a stimulant, like alcohol, again to satisfy or alleviate some sort of stress, and in those times we need to turn to prayer. I'm sorry Trent Horn, I like you but be the strong apologist I have come to appreciate and put Matt Fradd in his place and make him realize he has a weak relationship with Jesus and God. Smoking does not lead you to a relationship with God. Matt Fradd, I'm disappointed in you, which is why I don't usually follow you any more. But as a good Catholic, I will pray for you.
As far as I know until the recent health fascists got in charge the Vatican had the highest % of smokers of any state, I also remember a phot of a bishops conference from the 50's, there was not one without a cigarette , cigar or pipe. So to sum up ' smoking is immoral' = 90 % of the clergy have been immoral for the past 500 years. I think not.
They’re not god. Man is sinful. Your straw man fails…
Blessed (soon to be Saint) Pier Giorgio Frassati smoked pipe tobacco
Saint Pius X smoked cigars
People who say that boxing is immoral because it's so terribly violent are like people who say that God doesn't exist because the world is so full of evil. They've formed an opinion that lacks adequate investigation
Matt let Trent talllllllllk
Would love for Trent to do a whole video on this topic
Wirh all love and respect sir, please may the guest speak without disruption
✅️
For real
He barely interrupted, and it was always to talk about something Trent just said.
A conversation is a two way exchange, not a 20 minute monologue. This isn't a structured debate.
@@holdintheaces7468 Meh. The calling to the crew to look things up caused a few cringeworthy moments. You could even see the disapproval on Trent's face, as polite as he was about it.
Going down this rabbit hole is stupid because of the points made at 5:15 with chemicals in foods. If smoking cigars is immoral (which nicotine has been proven to have many positive neurological benefits) than so is obesity and being overweight because that isn’t natural to the human condition. And by Trent’s logic only inhaling smoke is immoral and since tobacco is a plant it’s totally acceptable to chew it
It’s crazy because 350.000 child immigrants have gone lost into a horror situation. Let’s talk about that.
No you passive aggressive weirdo 😂
obesity and being overweight is sinful though. It's a mix of gluttony and sloth.
@@CarDevourer 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.” All else is rumor isn’t it? Just be a good man, do as well as you can, but let’s not act as fools by going over silly details.
@@denniskatinas Take your pseudo-arguments somewhere else prot. Don't play mind games with me.
Here's a more thought out response --> mattfradd.locals.com/post/6200826/cigars-and-christianity-why-moderation-makes-all-the-difference
I'm on the drawing line as far as Nicotine is concerned myself. I use Zyn pouches or other things like them. As far as I can look into the ingredients, none of them seem to be carcinogenic. Most cans dont even have a cancer warning on them, just the general warning of "Addictive substance". The reason I began using was to help my attention and eating problems. Nicotine suppresses the appetite, and helps me stay on task throughout the day. All that being said, I don't think it's intrinsically evil, but definitely is a crutch for me personally.
When more people smoked the obesity epidemic was not nearly as bad as it was. Nobody's arguing that eating bread is immoral. The list of saints that smoked cigars pipes or cigarettes or used nasal snuff is very long
All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be dominated by anything
I will counter Trent in that I don't think he understands why many people smoke. (particular response to him saying he doesn't know of any good that comes from it) Im in the military, and I smoke small cigars on an infrequent basis, maybe two times a week at most, and I only do so for the simple reason that Nicotine both calms and focuses me. It also provides a social activity that is sadly becoming less common these days. Compared to other people I work with, my intake is pretty low, with some of my fellows needing nicotine just to get through the day. So in this case one could argue that the sinfulness of nicotine usage is in its excess. I would be inclined to agree with this, so long as there is no hypocrisy and we treat other substances the same. (alcohol as the primary example) But more often than not the people I see who complain the most about its usage have no qualms about people having a drink on the weekend.
I guess If I had a final thought it would be; Why do people suddenly care so strongly about this? I've seen many good Catholics who smoked a pipe or cigars and it never occurred to me as being some sort of vice. What's with the sudden teetotaler attitude, are we Catholics or American evangelicals?
That's actually an interesting topic that I rarely think about when it comes to morality. My mind is not made on this, but it was funny to see you both really trying to find the actual answer to the question.
I think that the carcinogen argument only goes so far. Because the risk is present but it can be reasonably mitigated. I don’t think anyone should chain smoke, certainly. But there’s a point at which I think well I could get mouth cancer, Lord forbid, from smoking a pipe with my brother every once and awhile-maybe once a week at most-or I could develop esophageal cancer from GERD, or lung cancer from the pollution in the Salt Lake Valley. Now, if I get cancer from smoking I’m going to wish that I didn’t smoke but I’m also going to say “okay, this is fair. I knew the risks involved.” But if I spend my entire life denying myself the pleasurable effects of nicotine in order not to develop cancer and I get cancer anyways, I’m going to be frustrated.
I think what I’m saying is that I don’t believe the effects of tobacco are direct and certain enough to make it inherently immoral. Like smoking meth is immoral because everyone I’ve ever known to smoke meth has ruined their lives. But you can use tobacco to where your chances of dying of anything else are still higher than cancer. Like honestly because of my temperament, I’m more likely to die of stress related illnesses which are relieved by tobacco.
Further more I would refute the natural law argument by saying it’s the administration of a drug. Just as sodomy is disordered but a suppository is not. And yes there is a health risk but as Trent said, a lot of medicine is just diluted poison. I take Concerta for my ADHD and that’s basically just time released micro-doses of meth and it does put me at risk of cardiovascular problems but the therapeutic effect it has on my executive dysfunction and my ability to get stuff done outweighs that.
We had a priest who frequently smoked outside. He even put up an ash tray/cigarette butt collector thingy close to the church entrance. This was 10-15 years ago. I think he quit after his bypass.
I can't say if it's a sin or immoral, it's just an unhealthy habit. There is nothing beneficial about it. When I was in school, the only kids that smoked were the "bad" kids.
What bothered me, was the pervasive lie that began in early 2020 that: "Smokers are better protected from COVID than non-smokers". The opposite was true, because all else being equal, smokers have weaker immune systems than non-smokers do.
i think it's about whether you can consume it responsibly without wrecking your life. you can enjoy alcohol responsibly; it's just when you start drinking for the sole purpose of getting blasted that it becomes a problem. you can play a round of poker or shoot a few rounds of craps and be fine. but, when you start gambling your entire paycheck away at the casino every payday, and you have a wife and two kids who rely on you that it becomes a problem.
Will always wildly disagree with your stance on boxing/mma
I agree with Trent that dose moderation is an important principle in this discussion.
But I also wanted to mention that, according to what I've seen, boxing helmets don't really mitigate concussions, they just reduce external face damage. And there have been several studies that have been released recently showing that alcohol is never "safe". And it seems that Christ multiplying wine for a party in which people had already been drinking seems to lend support to the idea that Christ was not opposed to partaking in activities/substances for the sake of pleasure (within reason of course).
The body is a temple. Deliberately and pointlessly breathing those toxins in of course is an insult to Our Creator. Smoking is a stupid, vain and unnecessary habit.
Like my old pastor used to say- smoking won't send you to hell, but it will make you smell like you've been there. XD That being said, I have one or two cigars a day. ;)
Wait. What are we saying? Cigars maybe not, but Spiked Brownies yes?
As an occasional pipe smoker, I feel like pipe and cigar smoking is very different from cigarettes. I mean look at a cigarette smokers lungs, theyre black with tar, are pipe and cigar smokers lungs like that? I'm not sure but it would be interesting to have a look
Um, I think the occasional cigar (or any tobacco product use) would qualify as low risk and responsible tobacco use. Smoking them round the clock would be maybe disproportionate ridk and intemperance
The mouth wasn't designed for cigar smoke... I think you do have an issue of asking what is the mouth designed for.
I don't mean that in an antagonistic way, I mean does the mouth only exist for utility? Do you really need to kiss your wife to give her pleasure?
I'm not being a goofball. I'm simply pointint out the mouth of all body parts in its frankly infinite facets, its hard to really say what its well defined purpose is. It was not designed to consume medicine, and yet we can and are good to do so.
I wouldn't ascribe virtue to a cigar anymore than I would to benadryl or desert.
Bad diet kills most people, far more than substances, and yet we don't ascribe mortal sin to being 10% overweight, though it kills more people.
Just got to have a balanced view of things.
Commercial Cigarettes are horrible for you, I can't be near them because you inhale all this second hand smoke cigarette smokers are chugging those things. But cigars with my asthma... my body does not react badly to them, I don't know what to say beyond that. It reacts like I'm taking in nurishment. I at most smoke once a week, more commonly every other month, but my body responds very well to a cigar in that context.
I think this is a very interesting topic but also falls in line with “moderation” for a solution, if there is any, because if you have one cigar a week or even less and take care of brushing your teeth, your chances of having mouth cancer are nearly identical to someone who doesn’t smoke at all. Cigarettes are worse because they have are more likely to be addictive and are smoked differently (inhaled to the lungs). Cigarettes are where I draw the line as well as constant smoking in general.
I remember my teachers in my catholic La Salle schools. Most of them were heavy smokers. I dont think it is a moral issue as long as you dont create a vice.
You 100% inhale into your lungs when you smoke cigars. No way around it. However why I’m not sure about Trent’s argument on natural law, is that I’m not sure lungs are only made for oxygen. Ex forest fire smoke. However my caveat would be MODERATION. Smoke here and there, but not habitually. I might be wrong on this, but that is my reasoning.
Do you mean like second hand smoke?
guys, are you on purpose avoiding THE actual issue? The issue of addiction?
Intentionally exposing oneself and others (sometimes by example only) to harmful, highly addictive substance (nicotine) is a sin.
Simple as that.
Feel free to dance around the issue some more.
But is smoking while praying immoral? What about praying while smoking?
Please host michael knowles - trent horn debate
3:04 I think there's a difference between UFC and football in that UFC (and boxing) are geared toward causing injury, whereas football has it as a consequence. Combat sports which have as their object to cause injury are disordered, but football isn't ordered toward causing injury, and to do so can in fact cause one to be penalized while playing football. You win at boxing by causing harm, you can be ejected from football for intentionally causing harm.
Vice is always sinful.
That being said not all nicotine products are vices.
My own personal consumption of tobacco is oriented around this governing ethos "absence makes the heart grow fonder."
But I'd also point out that I do personally think that irregular consumption of say pipe or cigar tobacco can be medicinal.
Any inhaled nicotine can have detrimental nerological impacts by penetrating the blood brain barrier. One should not inhale cigar or pipe smoke. Cigars are intended for inhillation. But oral absorbtion seems to be more mild and not as detrimental, hence the favoring of cigars and pipe smoke. I tend to find them also aeromatic and pleasant second hand, and cigarrettes not so. Chew also seems to be rather disgusting frankly. I find the carcinogen effect of a cigar or pipe tobacco is also a limiting mechanism. If you smoke irregularly your ability to overcomsume basically does not exist.
I would ascribe some beneficial results to my irregular cigar consumption, a relatively fast boost to testosterone. I can also see this reflected in blood work a week after smoking one cigar. I've struggled with Low T through covid times and irregular cigar consumption I'd say was the corner stone in my recovery. The boost for me was irrefutable. I didn't smoke my first cigar until I was 36, just to color my perspective a bit more.
I would say smoking 24 times/cigars a year or so is about where I would draw the line of avoiding habbituation. That's one every other week, or you could smoke twice a week with long brakes.
I think of my own consumption as both medicinal and recreational and a useful tool. It balances me very well, if I'm anxious it helps me relax, If I'm unfocused it helps me contemplate, if I'm tired it stimulates me. The way I use cigars always appears to bring me back to center, and the less is more ethos also rewards me in the direction of limiting smoking as much as possible, sometimes leading to long periods of abstinance.
This is getting a bit absurd.
I generally take Trent's opinion seriously, but it does seem like he hasn't fully fleshed this out. Possibly needs to refine his arguments more.
I think the case could definitely be made that certain activities are permitted, but morally questionable due to the level of harm the activity could bring you. Cigarettes, if freely chosen (not due to addiction), is probably a bad idea due to the known issues with addiction, lung cancer, etc.
But then, I wonder what would Trent say about other risky activities? Many people find meaning and joy in rock climbing, skydiving, scuba. And yet, these are completely unnecessary activities that may shorten your life. Would these activities then be immoral? I would be interested in hearing what the moral difference is.
Trent also seems to have some misconceptions about cigars/pipes. Tasting smoke, while not completely harmless, is enormously less risky than filling your lungs with it, filter or not. As far as I'm aware, there is only one smoking-related study that did not lump in other forms of tobacco with cigars. This study (performed by the CDC), found that the cancer rate of cigar smokers was a small fraction of a percent higher than non smokers. Anecdotally, I always hear about someone's old grandpa who did pipes or cigars, but usually not the old grandpa who did cigarettes.
As far as the argument that it's unnatural, I wonder what Trent would say about fine wine tasting where the wine is spit out after tasting. Also, the argument that it's unnatural didn't seem to bother a number of saints. It could be argued that they weren't aware of the health risks, but I would think they would have considered the nature argument.
I'm not above changing my opinion, and maybe I would if Trent gave solid answers to the above. Very curious.
Let God alone speak to the heart of each person.
But when someone smokes a cigar, are they doing it with the intent to damage their body? Probably not - they are probably smoking it for the sake of enjoying/relaxing. So if it was done with the intent of hurting yourself then I suppose this would be evil. But then should we avoid all alcohol? Like just because something is "bad" for our body does that automatically make it immoral? Aren't we all going to die anyway? 🤷 (Don't get me wrong I also don't like second hand cigarette smoke - parents smoked around me my whole life and I hated it. It made me smell at school and all the kids bullied me for it :c )
I think every once in awhile is fine or to celebrate something like a promotion, baby, wedding, etc.
But making a consistent habit of either alcohol, smoking anything, or even getting addicted to the feeling of being hurt or the feeling hurting others in the fighting sports seems wrong 🤷🏻♀️
Do you smoke 3 cigars a day because you love nicotine? That is probably wrong. Do you smoke a cigar occasionally as a way to destress and have a moment to yourself? That is probably okay. It's all about why you are doing it. I enjoy cigars and pipe. I do it to relax. I contemplate and sometimes pray while I am doing it. To each their own.
So much for the Pint, the pipe, and the Cross.
Every day here, literally every day I do this. Does anyone truly believe God disagrees with this with all the madness in the world?
@@denniskatinasyes. Evil is still evil no matter how small it is
@@JeffersonElder What evil? The evil you and others made up out of thin air? 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.” Just be a good man, don’t go crazy about detail while the world is burning.
@denniskatinas If those are the only applicable rules ever then God really went overboard with all 10 of the commandments huh?
@@DumplingRabbit Thats not the point. The point is that if you believe God is upset with you over smoking the pipe on your porch at the end of a long day, then you are lost in details. Someone smoking a pipe says nothing at all.
Never stick a lit-cigar anywhere inside the human body 😮
Your body is a gift from God. It is where the holy spirit dwells. You have a resposibility to look after it and keep it holy.