Thank you so much for this! I recently got stuck while learning to compose 2 part invention like pieces, but your advice about "spinning foward" the melodies with previous material made it much, much easier to give coherence to my piece. Would love to see more practical advice for composition. I specially have a hard time with diminutions and making the rhythm "feel" right.
Thanks a lot, I'm really happy this was useful for you! Yeah, the rhythm thing is tricky ... I haven't given much thought on how to codify the intuition on that one. The best bet (and the same is true for most things...) is to copy an example you admire and change a variable or two. For example, keep the shapes the same but vary your rhythm, or vice versa, or try to mix up the diminutions of a composer within the same piece (i.e. use this decorated fourth here instead of there, etc.).
Was a great presentation. At 26:35 I definitely agree that there is a connection to linguistics and human language. I've been studying formal language theory and I can't help but wonder if there could be approaches to analyze music using similar constructs for natural language(i.e. as context-sensitive grammars). The fughetta at the end was lovely. Following the suggestion in 9:55, I could imagine the final cadence being followed by a sequence based on the runs of sixteenths from the soprano in measure 8 if the piece were to be extended. One thing I've noticed in Bach at least is that at cadences he often uses the specific shape of on of the voices at the cadence as a springboard for a figurative or harmonic sequence afterwards. Sometimes one sequence gets "fragmented" and then "spun forward" into another sequence.
You're describing precisely this technique I mentioned with the Bach Violin Sonata. Something new is introduced at a point of freedom: a cadence, an episode, perhaps even just a decorated repetition of an idea, and then this "new" thing is used as a gestural baton to pass across the section or phrase. Re: linguistics you may be interested in a few books on the topic: Music, Language and the Brain by A. Patel and Music in the Human Experience by D. Hodges. The latter I have yet to read all the way through but I met the author recently and he strikes me as a very intelligent and earnest man. The former is a tome filled with the latest research on the intersection between neuroscience and music. It is dense, but worth reading, re-reading, and annotating.
19:35 Wouldn’t you mind doing a video explaining how to form subjects suitable for contrapuntal transformation (and how to use them in improvised fugues)? Since documentations on this matter are pretty hard to find.
See my videos on improvising fugues parts 1 and 2. The short answer is to follow the usual rules of thumb for good melody and to simply decorate a cadence. But an in-depth treatment is definitely missing and a good idea. Thanks for the suggestion, Michael.
@@parallelfifths2824 it’s been only guitar lol - had some dental work at some point that kinda botched that up 😅 your videos are really great - always learn something new!
Do you have any suggestions (e.g. books) for learning about form or rhythm in the Baroque era? I think you mention "resting points", phrase construction (illustrated with shapes), hyper-measures. I'm especially interested in rhythm, and harmonic rhythm. I was wondering how it's possible for there to be so many possibilities under the strict restraints of tonality and counterpoint. I've been thinking it's because of the variation possible in phrasing/rhythm - i.e. instead of do-re-mi, you could have do-re re-mi. That would be variation on the level of the scaffolding, then there's further variation possible on the level of figuration or compound melodies.
Following on from this - originally I thought of composition as something that you do by reading theory, and then applying that theory to create something "from scratch". But recently I'm thinking that the Baroque and classical styles are so constrained that composition ends up being more like reverse-engineering the "recipe" and then applying that recipe in different ways. The recipe might be the "form" of a particular invention - plugging in new harmonies/voice leadings to the pipeline. Or the recipe might be fixing the harmony and rhythm, but varying the figuration as is done for partimenti. Or it might be on the level of contrapuntal scaffolding, e.g. something similar to the Gjerdingen schema, but not necessarily in 2 voices - you could vary the arrangement of voices, or the rhythm/phrasing. In this way music becomes like learning a language. We learn from examples, but often we develop our own speech patterns. You develop a mental library of forms (e.g. of an invention, the organization of a fugue), voice leading formulas, methods of figuration, etc. Learning this language doesn't involve doing 1000s of counterpoint and harmony exercises, and checking if you've followed all the rules, but actually emulating existing compositions directly, but learning how to vary the composition in different ways. That seems to be what Bach did by candle light with his forbidden scores.
I can’t speak to the “right way” to think about this, I think we could all agree that’s not a useful goal. But I can tell you the general approach I use with my students which is to 1. Tell them what is important in music and show them what that looks like (basically, clarity of intent) 2. I show them a few basic structures which accomplish the things outlined in 1. 3. I give etudes to help with problems that arise over the course of 2. 4. I expand the basic structures in 2 and the etudes in 3 coupled with repertoire to show how these things play out in more and more complex scenarios. But at the root of it all is the old German concept of statement-explanation-conclusion. If you can figure out how to do that “idiomatically”, you will have success. I think doing 1000s of counterpoint exercises, you’re right, will not teach you the important things about good composition. People adore Vivaldi (and so do I) whose music is riddled with contrapuntal slobbery and haste (we forgive him, he was *very* busy and did not have a huge workshop of helpers like Bach). That said, they can’t hurt either unless you’re hoping to learn things except counterpoint from them. By the way I think reading and listening to things about composition is not very helpful at all unless you already have struggled with it for some time. So your past approach of theory first I think is totally backwards and I’m happy to hear you’ve abandoned it.
@@parallelfifths2824 Thanks so much for the reply :) I'll pay particular attention to the "statement-explanation-conclusion" recipe. On a finer level of detail, I've recently had success at paying attention to harmonic rhythm and motivic analysis. Previously I had only payed attention to the figured bass for an analysis of form, which partimento pedagogy encourages us to do. In the case of motivic analysis, of course imitation/canon are methods of providing form to music. And sometimes you find sentences and periods in Bach and Handel melodies. In other cases a single inner voice has a coherent motivic structure - with the remaining voices playing free counterpoint. And then you have the Schenker type "slow" stepwise melodic skeletons (e.g. French Suite No.5 "Allemande" - bass/soprano move in parallel 10ths with diminutions) that provide "directedness" to the lines, with no other motivic coherence present. I guess in summary, you have the Renaissance/Fux method of giving form on one end with imitation/canon/Schenkerian stepwise melody. And on the other hand you have the classical/galant method of giving form on the other with sentences/periods. And Baroque is right in the middle. In both cases, the bassline/harmony always provides form.
@@parallelfifths2824 It speeds up at predictable places, e.g. towards the end of a phrase, or even in a sequence. For example, in Invention 13 in A minor, bars 3-6 (first circle of fifths sequence), you can call bar 3-4 "stage 1" and the harmonic rhythm is on the level of half notes. Then in bar 5, we enter "stage 2" and the harmonic rhythm halves to the level of quarter notes, just before the final V->I cadence. In this case, the motivic grouping matches the change in harmony. Stage 3 would be the bars leading to the final cadence. There's a similar pattern in invention 6, bars 9-17, where the harmonic rhythm lasts a bar for two bars (bars 9-12). Then in bar 13, there's no change in harmonic rhythm, but instead of an abab motivic grouping, you have aaa - which has a similar effect to halving the harmonic rhythm (making the music sound "pushy" - increasing the rhetorical tension). Rather than keeping the bass/harmony fixed, as is the case for partimento basses - I've had success keeping the motivic length and grouping harmonic rhythm the same, leaving the rest flexible.
2 года назад
That was great! Thank you for sharing it with public. Do you still have that 1h version? I would love to hear that one... It's never enough! :D
Hah, I do, but it's really just filled with rambling. So glad you got something out of it.
2 года назад
@@parallelfifths2824 Well, I can only encourage you to upload it, maybe as unlisted... I really enjoy listening to your nerdy ramblings about composition and improvisation, because I always learn new things and get a fresh perspective on things I already know.
@ That's very kind of you, thanks so much. PS I'm also an ocarina player ;). Do you know the excellent Giorgio Pacchioni?
2 года назад
@@parallelfifths2824 Oh, really? That's awesome! Yes, I know Giorgio, about a decade ago, we used to talk quite a bit. I've met him personally in Budrio during one of the ocarina festivals. I have a dozen instruments he made. One of my most precious possessions is a very simple, but special little bird-shaped water whistle he gave me as a gift -- it's the one he plays on his profile picture, here on RUclips. It has great sentimental value to me.
11:08 I agree, what do you think of this guy? ruclips.net/user/locutuspicard1. I've noticed that when the instrument has constant velocity/volume, the musical expression is demonstrated through timing and rhythm instead of how hard you hit the keys.
Thank you so much for this! I recently got stuck while learning to compose 2 part invention like pieces, but your advice about "spinning foward" the melodies with previous material made it much, much easier to give coherence to my piece. Would love to see more practical advice for composition. I specially have a hard time with diminutions and making the rhythm "feel" right.
Thanks a lot, I'm really happy this was useful for you! Yeah, the rhythm thing is tricky ... I haven't given much thought on how to codify the intuition on that one. The best bet (and the same is true for most things...) is to copy an example you admire and change a variable or two. For example, keep the shapes the same but vary your rhythm, or vice versa, or try to mix up the diminutions of a composer within the same piece (i.e. use this decorated fourth here instead of there, etc.).
I'm always excited when I see a new upload of yours. Thanks for sharing this presentation with us!
Thanks, Jeffery! Tons of resources here including the conference this was a part of: improvplanet.thinkific.com
Was a great presentation. At 26:35 I definitely agree that there is a connection to linguistics and human language. I've been studying formal language theory and I can't help but wonder if there could be approaches to analyze music using similar constructs for natural language(i.e. as context-sensitive grammars).
The fughetta at the end was lovely. Following the suggestion in 9:55, I could imagine the final cadence being followed by a sequence based on the runs of sixteenths from the soprano in measure 8 if the piece were to be extended.
One thing I've noticed in Bach at least is that at cadences he often uses the specific shape of on of the voices at the cadence as a springboard for a figurative or harmonic sequence afterwards. Sometimes one sequence gets "fragmented" and then "spun forward" into another sequence.
You're describing precisely this technique I mentioned with the Bach Violin Sonata. Something new is introduced at a point of freedom: a cadence, an episode, perhaps even just a decorated repetition of an idea, and then this "new" thing is used as a gestural baton to pass across the section or phrase. Re: linguistics you may be interested in a few books on the topic: Music, Language and the Brain by A. Patel and Music in the Human Experience by D. Hodges. The latter I have yet to read all the way through but I met the author recently and he strikes me as a very intelligent and earnest man. The former is a tome filled with the latest research on the intersection between neuroscience and music. It is dense, but worth reading, re-reading, and annotating.
19:35 Wouldn’t you mind doing a video explaining how to form subjects suitable for contrapuntal transformation (and how to use them in improvised fugues)? Since documentations on this matter are pretty hard to find.
See my videos on improvising fugues parts 1 and 2. The short answer is to follow the usual rules of thumb for good melody and to simply decorate a cadence. But an in-depth treatment is definitely missing and a good idea. Thanks for the suggestion, Michael.
Great video and advice!!
Thanks for watching!
Sounds like a game of musical telephone ☎️ I like the idea of using the inertia of introduced melodic precedence. Nice video. :)
Hey, thanks Jake! I'm so touched that you watch my videos. You still playing the trumpet? Or is it mostly guitar these days?
@@parallelfifths2824 it’s been only guitar lol - had some dental work at some point that kinda botched that up 😅 your videos are really great - always learn something new!
Do you have any suggestions (e.g. books) for learning about form or rhythm in the Baroque era? I think you mention "resting points", phrase construction (illustrated with shapes), hyper-measures.
I'm especially interested in rhythm, and harmonic rhythm. I was wondering how it's possible for there to be so many possibilities under the strict restraints of tonality and counterpoint. I've been thinking it's because of the variation possible in phrasing/rhythm - i.e. instead of do-re-mi, you could have do-re re-mi. That would be variation on the level of the scaffolding, then there's further variation possible on the level of figuration or compound melodies.
Following on from this - originally I thought of composition as something that you do by reading theory, and then applying that theory to create something "from scratch". But recently I'm thinking that the Baroque and classical styles are so constrained that composition ends up being more like reverse-engineering the "recipe" and then applying that recipe in different ways. The recipe might be the "form" of a particular invention - plugging in new harmonies/voice leadings to the pipeline. Or the recipe might be fixing the harmony and rhythm, but varying the figuration as is done for partimenti. Or it might be on the level of contrapuntal scaffolding, e.g. something similar to the Gjerdingen schema, but not necessarily in 2 voices - you could vary the arrangement of voices, or the rhythm/phrasing.
In this way music becomes like learning a language. We learn from examples, but often we develop our own speech patterns. You develop a mental library of forms (e.g. of an invention, the organization of a fugue), voice leading formulas, methods of figuration, etc. Learning this language doesn't involve doing 1000s of counterpoint and harmony exercises, and checking if you've followed all the rules, but actually emulating existing compositions directly, but learning how to vary the composition in different ways. That seems to be what Bach did by candle light with his forbidden scores.
I can’t speak to the “right way” to think about this, I think we could all agree that’s not a useful goal. But I can tell you the general approach I use with my students which is to 1. Tell them what is important in music and show them what that looks like (basically, clarity of intent) 2. I show them a few basic structures which accomplish the things outlined in 1. 3. I give etudes to help with problems that arise over the course of 2. 4. I expand the basic structures in 2 and the etudes in 3 coupled with repertoire to show how these things play out in more and more complex scenarios. But at the root of it all is the old German concept of statement-explanation-conclusion. If you can figure out how to do that “idiomatically”, you will have success.
I think doing 1000s of counterpoint exercises, you’re right, will not teach you the important things about good composition. People adore Vivaldi (and so do I) whose music is riddled with contrapuntal slobbery and haste (we forgive him, he was *very* busy and did not have a huge workshop of helpers like Bach). That said, they can’t hurt either unless you’re hoping to learn things except counterpoint from them.
By the way I think reading and listening to things about composition is not very helpful at all unless you already have struggled with it for some time. So your past approach of theory first I think is totally backwards and I’m happy to hear you’ve abandoned it.
@@parallelfifths2824 Thanks so much for the reply :) I'll pay particular attention to the "statement-explanation-conclusion" recipe.
On a finer level of detail, I've recently had success at paying attention to harmonic rhythm and motivic analysis. Previously I had only payed attention to the figured bass for an analysis of form, which partimento pedagogy encourages us to do.
In the case of motivic analysis, of course imitation/canon are methods of providing form to music. And sometimes you find sentences and periods in Bach and Handel melodies. In other cases a single inner voice has a coherent motivic structure - with the remaining voices playing free counterpoint. And then you have the Schenker type "slow" stepwise melodic skeletons
(e.g. French Suite No.5 "Allemande" - bass/soprano move in parallel 10ths with diminutions) that provide "directedness" to the lines, with no other motivic coherence present.
I guess in summary, you have the Renaissance/Fux method of giving form on one end with imitation/canon/Schenkerian stepwise melody. And on the other hand you have the classical/galant method of giving form on the other with sentences/periods. And Baroque is right in the middle. In both cases, the bassline/harmony always provides form.
@@selfreferentialhumor And what exactly did you notice about harmonic rhythm?
@@parallelfifths2824 It speeds up at predictable places, e.g. towards the end of a phrase, or even in a sequence. For example, in Invention 13 in A minor, bars 3-6 (first circle of fifths sequence), you can call bar 3-4 "stage 1" and the harmonic rhythm is on the level of half notes. Then in bar 5, we enter "stage 2" and the harmonic rhythm halves to the level of quarter notes, just before the final V->I cadence. In this case, the motivic grouping matches the change in harmony. Stage 3 would be the bars leading to the final cadence.
There's a similar pattern in invention 6, bars 9-17, where the harmonic rhythm lasts a bar for two bars (bars 9-12). Then in bar 13, there's no change in harmonic rhythm, but instead of an abab motivic grouping, you have aaa - which has a similar effect to halving the harmonic rhythm (making the music sound "pushy" - increasing the rhetorical tension).
Rather than keeping the bass/harmony fixed, as is the case for partimento basses - I've had success keeping the motivic length and grouping harmonic rhythm the same, leaving the rest flexible.
That was great! Thank you for sharing it with public.
Do you still have that 1h version? I would love to hear that one... It's never enough! :D
Hah, I do, but it's really just filled with rambling. So glad you got something out of it.
@@parallelfifths2824 Well, I can only encourage you to upload it, maybe as unlisted... I really enjoy listening to your nerdy ramblings about composition and improvisation, because I always learn new things and get a fresh perspective on things I already know.
@ That's very kind of you, thanks so much. PS I'm also an ocarina player ;). Do you know the excellent Giorgio Pacchioni?
@@parallelfifths2824 Oh, really? That's awesome! Yes, I know Giorgio, about a decade ago, we used to talk quite a bit. I've met him personally in Budrio during one of the ocarina festivals. I have a dozen instruments he made. One of my most precious possessions is a very simple, but special little bird-shaped water whistle he gave me as a gift -- it's the one he plays on his profile picture, here on RUclips. It has great sentimental value to me.
11:08 I agree, what do you think of this guy? ruclips.net/user/locutuspicard1. I've noticed that when the instrument has constant velocity/volume, the musical expression is demonstrated through timing and rhythm instead of how hard you hit the keys.
Better to spin the wheel rather than re-invent it, eh? ;)