As someone who played Warcraft 3 during the early 2000's, to add to Grubby's point of what people love about RTS. I remember back then I would spend HOURS on giant maps, using cheats to keep the Hard AI stuck to just their one starting building and then proceed to build a Campaign style base with even outposts on Gold Mines I didnt plan to use cause that'd use em. So I kept using Greedisgood, had a couple grunts on hold position around my enemies main to auto kill any workers with whosyourdaddy. That way I didn't use all the maps resources! I spent whole days making these maps and then I'd pull back, turn off cheats and just watch the AI try to take on my Campaign style super base with me just holding on with the few units I would on purpose make. Most insane fun I had as a kid back then.
WinterStarcraft did this a lot of times where he limited his APM to a certain amount depending on the ladder rank he had and proved numerous times in SC2 that you do not need more than 130apm to reach Master league. I'd LOVE a series by you doing a 100-120 APM limited challenge ranking up into the highest rank on ladder in WC3. That would truly show on what level you actually have to care about surrounds etc and have a higher APM to achieve victory.
i had about that and i was masters for the two weeks that i played ranked. i qualified already in masters and i didn't lose a single time, even though a lot of the games were close calls. back then masters was the top league too. but ranked RTS games made me super nervous and i thought it was more stressful than fun so i stopped and never looked back. that said the gap to a pro was monstrous.
@@landi2244 My disability is weed xD sorry do not want to joke over your handicap but honestly drugs also slow you down in your actions very much. Hope I did not hurt you :)
Love the idea of the series! Personally I struggle a lot with RTS but not because of APM, but rather because I have poor motor coordination and so it's very difficult for me to precisely click on things, move the camera smoothly and hit the right hotkeys without having to look at the keyboard. With action games I can usually set things up so that I can just keep my hand in a fixed position where all the keys are right under a fingertip, and with that I can manage quite intensive things (such as harsh platformers or spectacle hack n' slash, etc), but RTS, MOBA and even some action RPGs at high challenge levels just have too many buttons for that to work. In fact, even just switching weapons in a shooter can be a problem for me if there are more than a couple I really need to use... as soon as my hand has to move, I risk losing track of where everything is unless I look at it. It's funny since I'm a guitar player, but it did take me 20 years of training to get to a point where I can play without constantly looking at my hands XD
I've actually started playing WC3 melee games for the first time ever last week because your games sparked my interest. Just finished my UD placement matches and lost every single one. More noob and new player focused videos are very welcome
Hehe, me too. The trick is enjoying and learning. And finding your style. For me the revelation as undead who lost all placements.. was to play aggressive. I'd lvl 1 hero them with dagger and staff maybe skull and 4 ghouls. Suddenly I didn't need to worry about creeping faster, putting up and defending fast expo from behind... game became systematic. I'm now looking forward to tracking enemy creep camps more and playing banshees. ^^ And Pitlord second!
I want to share some thoughts and experiences with my own struggles with APM in WC3 and Starcraft 2, and what went wrong, and how it felt, when I messed up the micro or decisions, and what change was important, to perform in the same situation with the same, or less, APM far better. For me, it's a lot about focus, experience, practice and mindset. The comment is a bit longer, I try to give examples and go into details and specific situations: For me, the problem, when I started RTS, was, I was kind of overwhelmed by the information. I didn't know, what to micro, and ended up microing nothing. Same with attacks in multipe places. The first RTS I really played was SC2, protoss, and f.e. Mutas in your expo and lings in your 3rd was difficult for me. However, you can reach a pretty high level with under 100 APM, even in SC2. I hadn't that many problems to micro a single fights while I macro, f.e. blink stalker micro while I produce more immortals and take a new base, because the fight went well, but I can't finish my enemy yet, but up to dia, it really was enough to macro up and a-move, at least with protoss. Later I became way faster, but I never struggled with blink stalker micro, because it's so simple: you have 1 unit type, you have 1 ability, you just click low stalkers and blink them back, and if you lose one, it doesn't have a huge impact. Also focus fire is very easy, so, in general, you don't get overwhelmed by information, and I could perform great with under 100 APM with over 20 stalkers vs f.e. 25 - 30 roaches, because it's simple and easy to understand, what you should do, even for beginners. There aren't that many options, what to do. WC3 is different, you don't have that many units to micro, and you can micro well without using that many APM, but again, it's a lot about staying level headed and knowing, what to micro. In WC3, you don't have many units, but a lot of different units, and a lot of them have different abilities. You have a lot of options, what to do, and I personally struggle less with huge armies with different unit types, but just some of them have abilities, that often times aren't even too impactful, than with small armies, where you have 2 or 3 different heroes, meele and range units and a caster, or 2 and a "special unit", like Kodo, and the casters and heroes have different abilities. Sometimes you have multiple solutions for the same problem, and that can be too much. Some examples: A simple one: headhunter gets focused, and you have low APM. Should you pull it back or use your SH to heal it, if you are too slow to both? Without practice, I would end up thinking too much about it, and doing none of it, even with enough APM to do, at least, one of both tasks. Also I sometimes hesitate at the beginning of the fight, and that can be a big problem: So in WC3, I feel like, some of the problem is, you have, in theory, a lot of things to do, and you can't figure out in time, should I use the hero abilities first, should I focus units with my range units, should I pull back a unit, that has low HP, and that's difficult if you aren't used to it, so you first hesitate, than you try everything, you try to pull back your low unit, but it's already to late, you try to cast a spell, but the opponent moved and your shockwave doesn't hit, you try to focus a unit with headhunters, your oppo pulls it back, and suddenly your HHs are at the front, and that's frustrating. Meanwhile, if you know, what to prioritize, and without this initial hesitation, the first split second, where I feel overwhelmed, when I didn't play for a long time, the fight goes totally different, and I usually end up with lower APM, but they are far more effective, because I stay focused, and micro the fight step by step. That's at least my experience, why I sometimes struggle with my APM, and sometimes I am fine. It's because of too much information and not knowing, what to do. In SC2, attacks with mutas and lings in 2 bases, and I don't know, should I pull workers back first, warp in stalkers against mutas, warp in zealots against lings, place cannons, or move the army and so on, in WC3, should I micro my units back, micro my heroes, use my casters for spells, my range units to focus something, and what should I focus? Having a clear picture, how the fight should go, and a good idea, what to prioritize, right from the beginning, makes a huge difference for me, and if I know, what to do, I don't need high APM to fight a good fight. So as conclusion, imo it's not that important, to have a lot of APM, but to not get overwhelmed by the information, and with that, practice helps, and also to know, what to do with the APM you have. Edit: just to make the scenario clearer, with the difference, between being overwhelmed by information and being cool minded: F.e. I have grunts and HHs and a SH, and a HH gets low. Should I pull it back, should I heal it, should I take my HHs to focus something? There are usually 2 outcomes for me: 1. Outcome. I hesitate, because the information is overwhelming. Then I try to micro the HH back. It's not enough, he will die. I try healwave, but the split second before I could click him, he died. Now I have my SH with healwave selected, and have to either cancel it or cast it f.e. on the grunts. Then I select my HHs to focus a enemy's unit, that's low, but he already microes it back, and now my HHs are at the front, and then my SH gets focused and I panic. 2. Outcome: I don't hesitate. I click the HH, pull it back, select SH and healwave. I didn't hesitate, so the HH still has higher HP, moved closer to the SH, and the healwave hits in time, and heals the HH and some grunts up. Now I take the HH and focus some low units, and the fight goes great, and now I feel more like, I did all the important things already, the fight goes great, so what else could I do? Then I place f.e. some snake wards and win the fight step by step. I feel much more relaxed, the mindset is totally different. I don't have more APM in the 2nd scenario, I just know better, what to do. I don't have this initial hesitation, that messes everything up, and that makes the difference, not the APM.
Thanks! This made me realize that high APM isn't exactly daunting because the act of doing things fast in itself is daunting, people can do that. It's more that a new player can't "do things fast" bc of mental blocks, lack of info, and decision paralysis, so they sit there trying to figure out what to do, while doing nothing, which drags their APM down. So in a way, it's more about learning what to do at any given time than doing the lil' stuff you know "faster". But in RTS you can make up for the lack of speed with superior knowledge or vice versa which is why the "real time" part is so exciting. It's very likely (even featured in this video) that when someone loses they're going to blame "I was slower" rather than the more likely reason of "I knew the game less".
Think for most players attention and mental capacity for decision making are more limiting than APM. You get faster as you stop wondering what to all the time. The more automated the decision-making process, the more you can focus on being faster, more precise and making small optimizations. But when you first start playing a game against other people you have multiple areas that by themselves are overwhelming but all compete for your attention at the same time. You can see that in League/Dota with laning. Even silver-gold level players can last hit decently well if left alone, but once they have to lane and play the macro game at the same time as last hitting creeps they start to fall apart. They don't need to just get better at killing the minions, once they feel comfortable playing the lane match-up they will have more CS without investing any focus into that area specifically.
Never played RTS in my life. I've just recently felt curious towards WC3 and tried it out. Wanted to play campaign and try to have fun, I often focus too much on trying to perform and that makes my experience something unenjoyable. Watching games from you playing at a more slow pace and having a strong game really appeals to me
Just got back into bw and wc3. played one game of bw and lost in 8 minutes with 38 apm (used to average 200 in sc2 when i was 14) but it was the most fun i ever had with starcraft, and just played my first game of wc3 about an hour ago and lost in 8 minutes with 2000 gold saved up. i have a lot more to say about it but i'll get off track, so i just want to say this series could not have come at a better time for me and im sso excited for it edit: I also just realized this past week watching your videos that there's something about wc3 that was having me feeling a little disillusioned and it was the single player parts that were added, i just didin't hasve the language for it, it felt impure as an rts compared to starcraft because there was a target other than the other player. Having gone through this video, a) I never thought about dota that way despite it also having creeps, and b) i was also thinking this week that just because the creeps are a resource you "mine" with HP, doesn't make it any less of a resource to manage in comparison to starcraft. There's still something i find pleasant aboout the simplicity of resources there are in starcraft coompared to wc3, but that's more my nostalgia speaking, and i love the warcraft universe too much to convince myself to enjoy wc3 less because "it's impure" i just need to get to the midgame more often lol
i can get 200 APM just grabbing my whole army and right-clicking a single enemy unit to infinity. That doesn't mean that i got a better play for having high apm, nor that i played well. The other guy, with just 2 right-clicks, can win against that, and those 2 actions would generate him only 30 APM. he would win. Also i can get apm by changing the position of the spawn flag (where units go when spawn), by right-clicking 2-4 four times in the same spot to send a unit there (gets me nothing, except more apm), etc. example: 4:49 even while trying to stay at low apm, he right-clicks 2 times in the same position to send a peon there, that's an extra action that did nothing, except losing time, effort and gaining APM.
This makes the barrier of entry for me personally into WC3 much less intimidating to give the game a try. I love watching all of your videos and it makes me want to try, but seeing how high your APM is, I know that’s something I couldn’t do so I stayed away. But after this, I’ll try it now! Thanks for this!
I have a quick random thought on the matter but I think it may be an interesting angle for you to consider. Behind Grubby's (or any hardcore / experienced / very good player's) low APM will still be a giga brain that knows what and when to do, how to react in many scenarios, expected or unexpected. They would always know what and how to do, and doing it slower is a minor drawback. While a more casual player would panic, or make wrong decisions, or just make each decision slower, as if needing to process many solutions instead of just going with the gut feeling (which is built as a result of experience and training). Another example of my thought would be Dune Spice Wars, where the APM requirement is arguably lower, but the amount of different complex mechanics to handle at once can easily overload a player with less experience and game knowledge, no matter their processing speed. tl;dr There's a lot of talk of mechanical / physical quickness (literally actions of your hands on keyboard and mouse) but less on mental processing power which is as important. This might be an interesting issue to tackle during your research.
I played Starcraft II on ladder back in WoL. My idle apm was around 60-65, with a peak of around 100-110. I am not sure 90 apm is really all that "slow". Keep in mind that i got to the 2nd highest rank at the time fairly easily (Diamond rank). The problem is that we have all watched KTFlash or someone like you play at super high-level, so i think a lot of people think they have to be competetive and be able to beat someone like you in order to have "Fun", this sets the bar very high. I grew up playing command and conquer back in the 90's, where the flashy effects and giant battles was the appeal. Your point about not needing as much apm if you can compensate in other areas do not hold at high-level play, everyone is at least A-tier in everything. I think RTS games need to focus on single player or coop to move forward, that is where the largest playerbase is. The competitive side is far less important than most think. Starcraft II is also a good example of an RTS that is way too fast, the entire gameplay builds up to one big decisive battle that is over in seconds and punishes you hard for even slight misstakes. The harassment is also incredibly stress full. /End rant
Grubby, this was lovely, but another video idea you can do is an introductory video into HOW to start playing WC3, as in where to get it, what ladders and modes there are as well as 3rd party programs etc. Cheers.
I never known the Ctrl+1 was a thing and or that buildings had their button on the keyboard. So i played wc3 as a kid just as i play it now, only with a mouse. Using keyboard for the menu only. Ill try playing the game with the keybinds in mind and see how much it improves my game. I beat the campaing and after that i played custom maps but vs bots and they always stomped my head in coming to my base with 2 heros and bunch of units while i was not even close to being ready. Grubster just came up one day on youtube and i started watching, almost every vid. I love how he explains every single thing, because i am sorta like him, meaning i dont know if i am stupid or something but i need detailed explanation to figure something out. Specialy if it is something new to me. I love your wc3 vids i watched some of your dota2 shorts and started playing dota2. I quit LoL for 3 months now and started my adventure on wow retail. Would love to if you made some coaching for dota2 if posible and would love to play with you because i just love your attitude towards the game, you try your best e every time no flameing, his bm-ing is on point every time. So hopefuly, when i get enough hours into dota 2 i run into you. Anyways i love all ur vids i love u Mr.Grubby hope your days are long and hardships few.
Should do an APM challenge where you have a metronome every 0.5 seconds where you can only take an action at that frequency (~90 APM with human+network latency) which would also kinda simulate massive lag. WC3: Rhythm game edition
I've thought for some time, after reflecting on my experience with playing online games before and after, that maybe an opportunity can be lost in only playing ranked matchmaking. League of Legends was the first game I played that I'm aware of having RMM. Prior to that, I feel I became a much better player over time by joining random Counterstrike, Dystopia, etc. lobbies through a server browser and, after being owned by the better players in that session, I was able to learn not only what was possible (by having it done to me) but also watching how those players played when I had downtime, e.g. watching from a better player's perspective in first-person perspective while I was waiting for a round to finish in Counterstrike (or any other game that offered a similar feature). I suspect that when a matchmaking algorithm successfully keeps you with people around your own skill level that you are less likely to see novel strategies or be exposed to the playstyles of much better players that you could then learn from to get better.
As an absolute noob i am mostly trying to remember the correct beginner build order execution and trying not to be consumed with army micro to the point of neglecting my building. :D And trying to build stuff beyond the w3 gym list. xD Took me a long time to figure out grubby was using control groups to keep and eye on build timers!
okay so here is my experience Watched this video Opened WC3 and started a unranked match as random First game - guy complains about lag and leave Second game - "sry I gotta go, - draw" and leaves Third game - Orc vs Orc... he rushed my base with a bigger army while I was creeping - I lost :) Did I enjoy? yea, I managed to kill some of his units while defending with my small army and burrows loaded with peons so yea, worth the try Edit: Started another game Undead vs NE - I rushed ghouls with Crypt Lord, scarabs and skeletons and won lol, wasn't expecting to go that well
Best low APM RTS I can think of is Supreme Commander Forged Alliance. It is entirely possible to play most of the game using base templates and factories set to autobuild with rally points. Since rally points can be set to go directly into patrol routes, you can have defensive and even offensive actions controlled entirely from the factories without ever needing to select the units being built.
I would agree and disagree at the same time. It is not all about APM but if you do it right this is the most important stat. Of course everything is correct you said but the weighting of each of the points you mentioned (tactics, decision making, build order, item luck and usage, e.t.c) is different. A bad decision making and tactics and really good apm vs bad apm and good decision making would be a 7/3 for the first one. There are so many tools you have with great apm, when I see how you block injured enemys with just one unit or worker, whill fighting and building and making your expo and harass with a second hero. This gives you so more advantage when done right than everything else.
I generally hang around 70 apm when playing casually in most rts games. Whenever in pvp or intense situations I can manage bursts of 120ish. I find myself unable to maintain that level or go much beyond that 70-120 range. I am embarrassed to admit this to folks, tho non-gamers have told me they think I move super fast when playing. It's definitely an interesting topic. I do think it has been a limiting factor for me as I do find pvp to be stressful and thus I avoid it usually. I'll have to give it another few goes I suppose! Best I managed ranking wise was around 100 on the WC3 ladder back in 2005ish. Only made it to around gold/ low platinum level in Starcraft 2. My favorite pvp has been 2v2 in WC3, I wish that had become more popular in it's life span. :)
Cool video Grubby! Really interested to hear your overall conclusions about what an RTS is. I'd challenge your statement about taking away base building, resource management and base management to get a moba though. Take a look at company of heroes, that doesn't really have any meaningful base building, definitely not a moba. Likewise for the Eugen system games, Warno and Wargame series. Also think of World in Conflict. Maybe you could call them real time tactics? I'd still argue they're RTS and definitely not a moba.
The thing about APM is...I've played against some players that are actually at the top of their game in war3 (at least back when I played), such as F-L-Y in Free For All, or TekkVicious in 1v1, and what they're capable of is just...on another level. It isn't that 200 APM goes to waste issuing the same order 5x over, but to things like multitasking, cycling through various unit abilities, etc. The thing about APM is...most of us have it in ourselves to reach 300-400 APM. For instance, I've taken typing tests recently and gotten up to 100 words per minute. and with an average word length of 4.7 characters, that's around 470 APM--theoretically. But in a game like warcraft 3, the question is: how well can you actually get the most out of that APM? Watching Grubby's games, he's base-managing WHILE creeping (and microing there!) WHILE harassing with, say, a Demon Hunter, or lategame, he's holding off steam tanks at an expansion WHILE skirmishing with the main army WHILE keeping macro up, and as army and inventory sizes grow in war3, how well can you keep up doing everything you need to? Building units at base, microing your heroes, cycling through your manual abilities (poly with sorcs, cyclone with druids of the talon), etc.? Mastery in RTS is the ability to manage an ever-increasing amount of options, and to be able to know what to do constantly, and to have your hands actually execute those things. It's...*tough!* It's why watching high level play? Amazing. But trying to *do* those same things? It's just a humbling experience when you're not used to remembering AND doing all the things you need to do.
I recall the viper (aoe) also played a low APM challenge. Seems it is more commonly in that franchise. But I'd like to see it more in W3 as well. In AoE they even have a tool that caps out their APM so the game doesn't execute commands when APM threshold is met, that be nice for these challenges I guess as it takes away some mental burden/risk to surpass the set (said) limit.
I get overwhelmed easily with multitasking and playing against others stresses me a lot. However, I still really love Warcraft III; I find it a lot of fun
Grubby : “You don’t have to be fast to enjoy RTS.” Me : Feeling excited.🤩 Grubby : “You just have to be smarter than the opponent.” Me : Cry in the corner.😢
To be true, my main issue with returning to WC3 is that I could only get 10% out of the games potential with my low apm (I’m even to stupid to use hotkeys). It’s like playing chess but only knowing how to move the pawns 😂 This video is really inspiring for low apm folk like me.
You dont need high apm to have fun. You may not be playing against top rank players, but you can still have a good time fighting AI without high apm. My brother, my dad, and i are casual players that get together and slay some insane teams. None of us have high apm cause its that sweaty for us. Its a fun, casual experience
Great video. If being able to have pro-like mechanical skill was necessary to enjoy a game, there would be no such thing as recreational sports. Trying to take the APM out of RTS is like trying to make soccer without needing speed, body control, or shot power. If you want to play soccer for fun, you join a league at your own level. For RTS, this matchmaking is done for you! Any game is not "too hard" if you're playing against a well-matched opponent. If i want to play a pure strategy game ill play Prismata, which i do. But i also like RTS.
Do you remember the undead player Space? His motor skills were limited due to a muscle disorder and he was still able to compete at pro level. He proved that high APM is not what determines a good RTS player.
It's definitely not about APM. What's the point of clicking speed if u don't know where to click. This video actually inspired me to try wc3 1v1 one more time, and it was really painful. I had w3champions launcher so decided to try it. Picked orc, started game, took Far Seer, creeped a little, opponent destroyed my army, i wrote gg and went next game. It was pretty much the same. Realised that after 2 games lost only 100 mmr from 1500 basic, so decided to instantly quit next 3 games, to reveal my rank and not waste my time and time of my opponents. Rating dropped only to 1200, and got small timeout for quiting, not big deal. Next game trying with BM, opponent scouted me with peon that already gives me bad vibes, and when i went to creep his Far Seer was already there, so he killed some my units, destroyed shop and i quit totally. I'm and no other sane person would never go to concede 30 games in a row to even start playing a game. Why can't i start from lowest rank, when i almost never played online wc3? If i had a lot of time MAYBE i'd go read some tutorials on how to build, upgrade, look for timings, counters etc. But it's just impossible for new players to get into the game, that has mostly players with up to 20 years of experience ahead of you. Maybe if it had better rank system, or some in-game tutorials. I'm not considering that i wanna start the game and win my first match, but at least to have chance to get out of my base, so i could start learn the game.
Sadly war3 doesn't show current apm, cause when your openent attacked your avg, pretty much got 10 higher 80 -> 90. You kinda did what the the SC2 AI did when it got it's apm restricted, and played slow, to unleash all the apm in the fight. I agree with you btw, but there is a minimum you should reaching whitch is about 120-150 with good decisions. In sc2 just playing macro with zerg is +250 (that not a requirement, this is the number you get if you play without an opponent to practice maxing out. As you said APM blaming is just an excuse
This is a perfect analogy. When I had lots of friends finally join me in the fgc after tekken 8 came out, I banned them from labbing combos until red-ranks and they're all there now!
I honestly think that you don't need high APM to do well on ladder and enjoy in general RTS games. However, I am pretty sure high APM is required to win a competition.
Either way APM is not what matters, EPM is. And even then apm is a weird way to look at it because it's not about how fast you click, it's about knowing what you're supposed to do and jumping between tasks quickly. If I press 6 which is my recruitment hotkey, then I need to quickly press the correct hotkeys to get the right units, and the hard part isn't pressing the keys quickly, I can easily smash my keyboard to get a random assortment of units and open up 20 random menus at the same time. Instead the speed is limited by that I have to know which units I want to recruit, whether I need to tab to reach the right building, which hotkey I need to press for that unit and then remenbering where on the keyboard that key is. When you get really good at that because youve played the game a lot it manifests as having higher EPM
just started to play wc3 a week ago and i gotta admit i have not won a single game on battlenet soo far :D. Cant rly seem to find a player as low of a lvl as me... Nice to see that can be ''slow'' and win, but you have to invest a lot of time into research to stand a chance
Imagine if wc3 had just frame inputs lol. If you perfectly cancel hero animations, the auto attack/spell does extra(more damage, lower cd, less mana used etc.)
Along with my 40-50 APM I also still have bad knowledge and build order despite playing since RoC launch. At this point I'm just old. Sometimes I get a nice carry in 4v4.
I think apm requirements are extremely fustrating, because a lot of the time (mostly in starscraft) you are using your apm on trying to get your base to do what you want. My favourite part of rts has always been large scale strategy and unit interactions and having to remember to come back and tell my buildings to make another unit to remain effective is unnessesary and is an artifical limitation in the design of the game that is just memorisation which i think adds unessesary cognitive stress to players (especially newer ones) I think the game should add more options to autobuild units when a building is finished, like the rightclick option in dawn of war. Maybe even let players plan out when and where buildings should be placed before the match, then let the player once they are in game make impactful informed decisions on how to modify their plan instesd of making them perform a challenging repetitive task to even get to the point of making a decision
My laptop is broken and I really want to play wcr sb it’s been another world for me I can’t wait to surrender myself to the Heart of the community again, I miss it ❤
Hard to play and hard to watch low apm. I wonder what the Median APM is and wheather or not people fail in RTS due to APM inability or the low effort of trying to understand the game. Game knowladge, buildorders, strategy etc.
I think its not problem if you have 40 apm as a beginner i been there before when i started to play Warcraft 3 online, like 3000 years before, you getting faster if you play more.
I tend to think you fill in your spare time with high APM because of attention span. The game is too slow for you and you anticipate events too soon, so your brain get bored and you fill the extra time up with random or multiple clicks/button presses.
I feel like there are a lot of similarities between fighthing games and rts. Both of them where super popular in the past but died off, they both have a reputation of being extremely hard, they both have they bullshit stats that blind people on what the game actually is about (apm, super long and complicated combos). Fighting games are having a revival lately but I am not sure about rts. Does anyone have more insight on this topic?
To be fair, look at faker, 4x world champion, he has the highest APM in the world, and I am not saying APM is the reason he reached his level but it definitly played a really big part in him being so good
Yes but you dont need to be in the top 100 of all players to enjoy the game, thats the point. These things just come with time. Its like fighting games where you can stick to just proper spacing and fundamentals before going to combos in the first place. Theres even a game called footsies that has no combos whatever, just the basic fighting game fundamentals and it makes you realise how you win games even without knowing said combos.
Someone should make a mod for competitive RTS games where you insta lose if you cross a certain APM. It'll add a tightrope intensity to the game and could corner us into new, unimaginable levels of efficiency and creativity.
I don't think you can "simulate" low APM just by clicking less. People click less, because they can't figure out what to do so fast. I don't think it's the actual clicking that's the problem.
The problem is a lot of people associate high apm with being good at the game, and this then forms a pseudo gatekeeping element for people that want to get into the game
Man this seems like a hot topic lol even your in-game chatters suddenly activated their braincells for a heated debate and I guess it will be the same here on RUclips.
You realize that average people have way less than 50 amp, right? And to build up to 100 you have to be trained, especially in older age. I made this path and strongly believe this was a bad time investment. Would be way happier to train flamenco guitar for example.
Almost every video, Grubby viewers donate unrelated stuff of whats going on, sometimes makes me think that they either are trolls or very stupidly annoying
Personally I don't think you need high APM to win (as I think strategy, and knowing the game, counters, timing etc., is more important) but it would definitely be considered an asset assuming players are of relative skill level. I think this is due to the real time related elements with which high APM can assist with multitasking, and getting back to your units to micro them/maneuver them more effectively, managing your multiple bases efficiently or when some players try to attack with different squads of units at multiple different locations either to distract you, etc. Higher apm I think can potentially allow you to respond more quickly resulting in the loss of less units. Having the capacity to do more action per minute as the game begins to ramp up can definitely win you fights in my opinion. In the early game it matter less i think. Higher apm can also help with microing especially when you start having a larger army and need to micro and/or manage them.
i think you dont need high apms and insane micro with 300 apm but, with less then 50 you should consider maybe going into a other online Strategie game just for your own sanity and fun. But when you have fun it its perfectly fine, just think it wont be for most player escpally in a game like wc 3 where you encounter most likely players that played for Years and are more skilled since its so old.
APM is a very simple and visible metrics. It is quite spectacular so you admire it instantly when you see pro players while the intricacy of the decision-making is by nature much more difficult to appreciate and comprehend. When the average players has a bad game, it is quite easy for him to see that he missed a surround or was too slow to cast a spell while he may miss the fact that those mechanics were only required because of a poor decision he made. Another aspect is the fact that the games that we watch are mostly played by "elite" players which is a sample highly affected by the survivorship bias as becoming an elite players with a low APM count is insanely difficult.
@@xelinco3005 The impact is just bigger. To turn it around there will no pro player with bad apm. You see it even in games like LoL or Dota which are just focused on one unit to controle, what difference it makes to have great apm. If you weight every aspect of the game, you will have a different factor for each component and APM is the biggest one. When people like Grubby can just block away my units the complete fight and build in this time in base and attack at a third front, it does not matter how good my strategy is my units will not even be able to do damage just to the fact that I get outplayed so hard. And even if I can stand up in battle, his macro game is so much better due to his apm that I already lost the game in long term.
@@jesuseinstein4706 APM alone is quite meaningless but yes you definitely need high APM to be the best in the world and good decision-making won't carry 30 APM.
@@xelinco3005 exactly thats my point, for the top everyrhing has to fit. But my assumption would be that someone with Just great apm will reach Higher mmr than someone with just game knowledge and 30 apm. Which mmr that would be is Up for a different discussion.
Grubby, you're failing to realise that you're fluctuating between very high and low APM. You're lowering your APM during less important moments only to turn up your APM on highly critical moments. The average player can't do this, they will have a generally lower APM across the board. This is not a good example of overcoming low APM with skill/knowledge (other advantages).
As someone who played Warcraft 3 during the early 2000's, to add to Grubby's point of what people love about RTS. I remember back then I would spend HOURS on giant maps, using cheats to keep the Hard AI stuck to just their one starting building and then proceed to build a Campaign style base with even outposts on Gold Mines I didnt plan to use cause that'd use em. So I kept using Greedisgood, had a couple grunts on hold position around my enemies main to auto kill any workers with whosyourdaddy. That way I didn't use all the maps resources! I spent whole days making these maps and then I'd pull back, turn off cheats and just watch the AI try to take on my Campaign style super base with me just holding on with the few units I would on purpose make. Most insane fun I had as a kid back then.
man, the day you discovered world edit, you prob shat ur whole ass
This is like Warcraft 3: Watch your Blood Pressure edition.
WinterStarcraft did this a lot of times where he limited his APM to a certain amount depending on the ladder rank he had and proved numerous times in SC2 that you do not need more than 130apm to reach Master league.
I'd LOVE a series by you doing a 100-120 APM limited challenge ranking up into the highest rank on ladder in WC3. That would truly show on what level you actually have to care about surrounds etc and have a higher APM to achieve victory.
i had about that and i was masters for the two weeks that i played ranked. i qualified already in masters and i didn't lose a single time, even though a lot of the games were close calls. back then masters was the top league too. but ranked RTS games made me super nervous and i thought it was more stressful than fun so i stopped and never looked back.
that said the gap to a pro was monstrous.
@@GraveUypodude I'm the same way. Only RTS games give me such a feeling
Thats pretty motivating since my movement declines due to disability, fingers included. Guess game sense is everything!
what disability do you have?
I thought i was the only one with disability.
@@landi2244 There are far more out there, but unnoticed. Only love!
@@landi2244 My disability is weed xD sorry do not want to joke over your handicap but honestly drugs also slow you down in your actions very much.
Hope I did not hurt you :)
@@jesuseinstein4706 Not hurt whatsoever. I like the weed joke. Hahah
Love the idea of the series! Personally I struggle a lot with RTS but not because of APM, but rather because I have poor motor coordination and so it's very difficult for me to precisely click on things, move the camera smoothly and hit the right hotkeys without having to look at the keyboard. With action games I can usually set things up so that I can just keep my hand in a fixed position where all the keys are right under a fingertip, and with that I can manage quite intensive things (such as harsh platformers or spectacle hack n' slash, etc), but RTS, MOBA and even some action RPGs at high challenge levels just have too many buttons for that to work. In fact, even just switching weapons in a shooter can be a problem for me if there are more than a couple I really need to use... as soon as my hand has to move, I risk losing track of where everything is unless I look at it. It's funny since I'm a guitar player, but it did take me 20 years of training to get to a point where I can play without constantly looking at my hands XD
I've actually started playing WC3 melee games for the first time ever last week because your games sparked my interest. Just finished my UD placement matches and lost every single one.
More noob and new player focused videos are very welcome
Hehe, me too. The trick is enjoying and learning. And finding your style. For me the revelation as undead who lost all placements.. was to play aggressive. I'd lvl 1 hero them with dagger and staff maybe skull and 4 ghouls. Suddenly I didn't need to worry about creeping faster, putting up and defending fast expo from behind... game became systematic. I'm now looking forward to tracking enemy creep camps more and playing banshees. ^^ And Pitlord second!
Try 4v4, its a good way to get started and use !mute 2 / 3 etc might come in handy
I want to share some thoughts and experiences with my own struggles with APM in WC3 and Starcraft 2, and what went wrong, and how it felt, when I messed up the micro or decisions, and what change was important, to perform in the same situation with the same, or less, APM far better. For me, it's a lot about focus, experience, practice and mindset.
The comment is a bit longer, I try to give examples and go into details and specific situations:
For me, the problem, when I started RTS, was, I was kind of overwhelmed by the information. I didn't know, what to micro, and ended up microing nothing. Same with attacks in multipe places. The first RTS I really played was SC2, protoss, and f.e. Mutas in your expo and lings in your 3rd was difficult for me.
However, you can reach a pretty high level with under 100 APM, even in SC2. I hadn't that many problems to micro a single fights while I macro, f.e. blink stalker micro while I produce more immortals and take a new base, because the fight went well, but I can't finish my enemy yet, but up to dia, it really was enough to macro up and a-move, at least with protoss.
Later I became way faster, but I never struggled with blink stalker micro, because it's so simple: you have 1 unit type, you have 1 ability, you just click low stalkers and blink them back, and if you lose one, it doesn't have a huge impact. Also focus fire is very easy, so, in general, you don't get overwhelmed by information, and I could perform great with under 100 APM with over 20 stalkers vs f.e. 25 - 30 roaches, because it's simple and easy to understand, what you should do, even for beginners. There aren't that many options, what to do.
WC3 is different, you don't have that many units to micro, and you can micro well without using that many APM, but again, it's a lot about staying level headed and knowing, what to micro.
In WC3, you don't have many units, but a lot of different units, and a lot of them have different abilities. You have a lot of options, what to do, and I personally struggle less with huge armies with different unit types, but just some of them have abilities, that often times aren't even too impactful, than with small armies, where you have 2 or 3 different heroes, meele and range units and a caster, or 2 and a "special unit", like Kodo, and the casters and heroes have different abilities. Sometimes you have multiple solutions for the same problem, and that can be too much.
Some examples:
A simple one: headhunter gets focused, and you have low APM. Should you pull it back or use your SH to heal it, if you are too slow to both?
Without practice, I would end up thinking too much about it, and doing none of it, even with enough APM to do, at least, one of both tasks.
Also I sometimes hesitate at the beginning of the fight, and that can be a big problem:
So in WC3, I feel like, some of the problem is, you have, in theory, a lot of things to do, and you can't figure out in time, should I use the hero abilities first, should I focus units with my range units, should I pull back a unit, that has low HP, and that's difficult if you aren't used to it, so you first hesitate, than you try everything, you try to pull back your low unit, but it's already to late, you try to cast a spell, but the opponent moved and your shockwave doesn't hit, you try to focus a unit with headhunters, your oppo pulls it back, and suddenly your HHs are at the front, and that's frustrating.
Meanwhile, if you know, what to prioritize, and without this initial hesitation, the first split second, where I feel overwhelmed, when I didn't play for a long time, the fight goes totally different, and I usually end up with lower APM, but they are far more effective, because I stay focused, and micro the fight step by step.
That's at least my experience, why I sometimes struggle with my APM, and sometimes I am fine. It's because of too much information and not knowing, what to do. In SC2, attacks with mutas and lings in 2 bases, and I don't know, should I pull workers back first, warp in stalkers against mutas, warp in zealots against lings, place cannons, or move the army and so on, in WC3, should I micro my units back, micro my heroes, use my casters for spells, my range units to focus something, and what should I focus?
Having a clear picture, how the fight should go, and a good idea, what to prioritize, right from the beginning, makes a huge difference for me, and if I know, what to do, I don't need high APM to fight a good fight.
So as conclusion, imo it's not that important, to have a lot of APM, but to not get overwhelmed by the information, and with that, practice helps, and also to know, what to do with the APM you have.
Edit: just to make the scenario clearer, with the difference, between being overwhelmed by information and being cool minded:
F.e. I have grunts and HHs and a SH, and a HH gets low. Should I pull it back, should I heal it, should I take my HHs to focus something? There are usually 2 outcomes for me:
1. Outcome. I hesitate, because the information is overwhelming. Then I try to micro the HH back. It's not enough, he will die. I try healwave, but the split second before I could click him, he died. Now I have my SH with healwave selected, and have to either cancel it or cast it f.e. on the grunts. Then I select my HHs to focus a enemy's unit, that's low, but he already microes it back, and now my HHs are at the front, and then my SH gets focused and I panic.
2. Outcome: I don't hesitate. I click the HH, pull it back, select SH and healwave. I didn't hesitate, so the HH still has higher HP, moved closer to the SH, and the healwave hits in time, and heals the HH and some grunts up. Now I take the HH and focus some low units, and the fight goes great, and now I feel more like, I did all the important things already, the fight goes great, so what else could I do? Then I place f.e. some snake wards and win the fight step by step. I feel much more relaxed, the mindset is totally different.
I don't have more APM in the 2nd scenario, I just know better, what to do. I don't have this initial hesitation, that messes everything up, and that makes the difference, not the APM.
Yes, it often times is very overwhelming, and you don't know, what exactly to do, during a battle.
TLDR, but thanks for sharing.
Glad to hear, or sorry that it happened.
Thanks!
This made me realize that high APM isn't exactly daunting because the act of doing things fast in itself is daunting, people can do that.
It's more that a new player can't "do things fast" bc of mental blocks, lack of info, and decision paralysis, so they sit there trying to figure out what to do, while doing nothing, which drags their APM down.
So in a way, it's more about learning what to do at any given time than doing the lil' stuff you know "faster".
But in RTS you can make up for the lack of speed with superior knowledge or vice versa which is why the "real time" part is so exciting.
It's very likely (even featured in this video) that when someone loses they're going to blame "I was slower" rather than the more likely reason of "I knew the game less".
Think for most players attention and mental capacity for decision making are more limiting than APM. You get faster as you stop wondering what to all the time. The more automated the decision-making process, the more you can focus on being faster, more precise and making small optimizations. But when you first start playing a game against other people you have multiple areas that by themselves are overwhelming but all compete for your attention at the same time.
You can see that in League/Dota with laning. Even silver-gold level players can last hit decently well if left alone, but once they have to lane and play the macro game at the same time as last hitting creeps they start to fall apart. They don't need to just get better at killing the minions, once they feel comfortable playing the lane match-up they will have more CS without investing any focus into that area specifically.
Never played RTS in my life. I've just recently felt curious towards WC3 and tried it out. Wanted to play campaign and try to have fun, I often focus too much on trying to perform and that makes my experience something unenjoyable. Watching games from you playing at a more slow pace and having a strong game really appeals to me
Wc3 is great good choice to try it out! You can be very free in how you play the game in wc3
Just got back into bw and wc3. played one game of bw and lost in 8 minutes with 38 apm (used to average 200 in sc2 when i was 14) but it was the most fun i ever had with starcraft, and just played my first game of wc3 about an hour ago and lost in 8 minutes with 2000 gold saved up. i have a lot more to say about it but i'll get off track, so i just want to say this series could not have come at a better time for me and im sso excited for it
edit: I also just realized this past week watching your videos that there's something about wc3 that was having me feeling a little disillusioned and it was the single player parts that were added, i just didin't hasve the language for it, it felt impure as an rts compared to starcraft because there was a target other than the other player.
Having gone through this video, a) I never thought about dota that way despite it also having creeps, and b) i was also thinking this week that just because the creeps are a resource you "mine" with HP, doesn't make it any less of a resource to manage in comparison to starcraft. There's still something i find pleasant aboout the simplicity of resources there are in starcraft coompared to wc3, but that's more my nostalgia speaking, and i love the warcraft universe too much to convince myself to enjoy wc3 less because "it's impure" i just need to get to the midgame more often lol
i love this idea. it's not just encouraging but much easier to follow what you're doing and learn stuff = )
i can get 200 APM just grabbing my whole army and right-clicking a single enemy unit to infinity. That doesn't mean that i got a better play for having high apm, nor that i played well.
The other guy, with just 2 right-clicks, can win against that, and those 2 actions would generate him only 30 APM. he would win.
Also i can get apm by changing the position of the spawn flag (where units go when spawn), by right-clicking 2-4 four times in the same spot to send a unit there (gets me nothing, except more apm), etc.
example: 4:49 even while trying to stay at low apm, he right-clicks 2 times in the same position to send a peon there, that's an extra action that did nothing, except losing time, effort and gaining APM.
This makes the barrier of entry for me personally into WC3 much less intimidating to give the game a try.
I love watching all of your videos and it makes me want to try, but seeing how high your APM is, I know that’s something I couldn’t do so I stayed away.
But after this, I’ll try it now! Thanks for this!
Thank you Grub. Always enjoy your videos.
I have a quick random thought on the matter but I think it may be an interesting angle for you to consider.
Behind Grubby's (or any hardcore / experienced / very good player's) low APM will still be a giga brain that knows what and when to do, how to react in many scenarios, expected or unexpected. They would always know what and how to do, and doing it slower is a minor drawback. While a more casual player would panic, or make wrong decisions, or just make each decision slower, as if needing to process many solutions instead of just going with the gut feeling (which is built as a result of experience and training).
Another example of my thought would be Dune Spice Wars, where the APM requirement is arguably lower, but the amount of different complex mechanics to handle at once can easily overload a player with less experience and game knowledge, no matter their processing speed.
tl;dr There's a lot of talk of mechanical / physical quickness (literally actions of your hands on keyboard and mouse) but less on mental processing power which is as important. This might be an interesting issue to tackle during your research.
I played Starcraft II on ladder back in WoL. My idle apm was around 60-65, with a peak of around 100-110. I am not sure 90 apm is really all that "slow". Keep in mind that i got to the 2nd highest rank at the time fairly easily (Diamond rank).
The problem is that we have all watched KTFlash or someone like you play at super high-level, so i think a lot of people think they have to be competetive and be able to beat someone like you in order to have "Fun", this sets the bar very high. I grew up playing command and conquer back in the 90's, where the flashy effects and giant battles was the appeal. Your point about not needing as much apm if you can compensate in other areas do not hold at high-level play, everyone is at least A-tier in everything. I think RTS games need to focus on single player or coop to move forward, that is where the largest playerbase is. The competitive side is far less important than most think.
Starcraft II is also a good example of an RTS that is way too fast, the entire gameplay builds up to one big decisive battle that is over in seconds and punishes you hard for even slight misstakes. The harassment is also incredibly stress full.
/End rant
Grubby, this was lovely, but another video idea you can do is an introductory video into HOW to start playing WC3, as in where to get it, what ladders and modes there are as well as 3rd party programs etc. Cheers.
I never known the Ctrl+1 was a thing and or that buildings had their button on the keyboard. So i played wc3 as a kid just as i play it now, only with a mouse. Using keyboard for the menu only. Ill try playing the game with the keybinds in mind and see how much it improves my game. I beat the campaing and after that i played custom maps but vs bots and they always stomped my head in coming to my base with 2 heros and bunch of units while i was not even close to being ready. Grubster just came up one day on youtube and i started watching, almost every vid. I love how he explains every single thing, because i am sorta like him, meaning i dont know if i am stupid or something but i need detailed explanation to figure something out. Specialy if it is something new to me. I love your wc3 vids i watched some of your dota2 shorts and started playing dota2. I quit LoL for 3 months now and started my adventure on wow retail. Would love to if you made some coaching for dota2 if posible and would love to play with you because i just love your attitude towards the game, you try your best e every time no flameing, his bm-ing is on point every time. So hopefuly, when i get enough hours into dota 2 i run into you. Anyways i love all ur vids i love u Mr.Grubby hope your days are long and hardships few.
Should do an APM challenge where you have a metronome every 0.5 seconds where you can only take an action at that frequency (~90 APM with human+network latency) which would also kinda simulate massive lag. WC3: Rhythm game edition
I've thought for some time, after reflecting on my experience with playing online games before and after, that maybe an opportunity can be lost in only playing ranked matchmaking. League of Legends was the first game I played that I'm aware of having RMM. Prior to that, I feel I became a much better player over time by joining random Counterstrike, Dystopia, etc. lobbies through a server browser and, after being owned by the better players in that session, I was able to learn not only what was possible (by having it done to me) but also watching how those players played when I had downtime, e.g. watching from a better player's perspective in first-person perspective while I was waiting for a round to finish in Counterstrike (or any other game that offered a similar feature).
I suspect that when a matchmaking algorithm successfully keeps you with people around your own skill level that you are less likely to see novel strategies or be exposed to the playstyles of much better players that you could then learn from to get better.
This was a great video, apm is the most intimidating part of rts for a long term novice like myself.
As an absolute noob i am mostly trying to remember the correct beginner build order execution and trying not to be consumed with army micro to the point of neglecting my building. :D
And trying to build stuff beyond the w3 gym list. xD Took me a long time to figure out grubby was using control groups to keep and eye on build timers!
Good idea, would like to watch more, hopefully with all the races
okay so here is my experience
Watched this video
Opened WC3 and started a unranked match as random
First game - guy complains about lag and leave
Second game - "sry I gotta go, - draw" and leaves
Third game - Orc vs Orc... he rushed my base with a bigger army while I was creeping - I lost
:)
Did I enjoy? yea, I managed to kill some of his units while defending with my small army and burrows loaded with peons so yea, worth the try
Edit: Started another game
Undead vs NE - I rushed ghouls with Crypt Lord, scarabs and skeletons and won lol, wasn't expecting to go that well
Cool series man, I was always wondering if my apm is just too low to be good, now i know its not the apm but the skill issue xD
High peak APM is somewhat a measure of skill.
High constant APM is somewhat a measure of waste
Best low APM RTS I can think of is Supreme Commander Forged Alliance. It is entirely possible to play most of the game using base templates and factories set to autobuild with rally points. Since rally points can be set to go directly into patrol routes, you can have defensive and even offensive actions controlled entirely from the factories without ever needing to select the units being built.
I would agree and disagree at the same time. It is not all about APM but if you do it right this is the most important stat.
Of course everything is correct you said but the weighting of each of the points you mentioned (tactics, decision making, build order, item luck and usage, e.t.c) is different.
A bad decision making and tactics and really good apm vs bad apm and good decision making would be a 7/3 for the first one.
There are so many tools you have with great apm, when I see how you block injured enemys with just one unit or worker, whill fighting and building and making your expo and harass with a second hero. This gives you so more advantage when done right than everything else.
I generally hang around 70 apm when playing casually in most rts games. Whenever in pvp or intense situations I can manage bursts of 120ish. I find myself unable to maintain that level or go much beyond that 70-120 range. I am embarrassed to admit this to folks, tho non-gamers have told me they think I move super fast when playing. It's definitely an interesting topic. I do think it has been a limiting factor for me as I do find pvp to be stressful and thus I avoid it usually. I'll have to give it another few goes I suppose! Best I managed ranking wise was around 100 on the WC3 ladder back in 2005ish. Only made it to around gold/ low platinum level in Starcraft 2. My favorite pvp has been 2v2 in WC3, I wish that had become more popular in it's life span. :)
Cool video Grubby! Really interested to hear your overall conclusions about what an RTS is.
I'd challenge your statement about taking away base building, resource management and base management to get a moba though. Take a look at company of heroes, that doesn't really have any meaningful base building, definitely not a moba. Likewise for the Eugen system games, Warno and Wargame series. Also think of World in Conflict. Maybe you could call them real time tactics? I'd still argue they're RTS and definitely not a moba.
Decisions, decisions … he's been playing 5D chess all this time.
The thing about APM is...I've played against some players that are actually at the top of their game in war3 (at least back when I played), such as F-L-Y in Free For All, or TekkVicious in 1v1, and what they're capable of is just...on another level. It isn't that 200 APM goes to waste issuing the same order 5x over, but to things like multitasking, cycling through various unit abilities, etc.
The thing about APM is...most of us have it in ourselves to reach 300-400 APM. For instance, I've taken typing tests recently and gotten up to 100 words per minute. and with an average word length of 4.7 characters, that's around 470 APM--theoretically. But in a game like warcraft 3, the question is: how well can you actually get the most out of that APM? Watching Grubby's games, he's base-managing WHILE creeping (and microing there!) WHILE harassing with, say, a Demon Hunter, or lategame, he's holding off steam tanks at an expansion WHILE skirmishing with the main army WHILE keeping macro up, and as army and inventory sizes grow in war3, how well can you keep up doing everything you need to? Building units at base, microing your heroes, cycling through your manual abilities (poly with sorcs, cyclone with druids of the talon), etc.?
Mastery in RTS is the ability to manage an ever-increasing amount of options, and to be able to know what to do constantly, and to have your hands actually execute those things. It's...*tough!* It's why watching high level play? Amazing. But trying to *do* those same things? It's just a humbling experience when you're not used to remembering AND doing all the things you need to do.
I recall the viper (aoe) also played a low APM challenge. Seems it is more commonly in that franchise. But I'd like to see it more in W3 as well. In AoE they even have a tool that caps out their APM so the game doesn't execute commands when APM threshold is met, that be nice for these challenges I guess as it takes away some mental burden/risk to surpass the set (said) limit.
I get overwhelmed easily with multitasking and playing against others stresses me a lot. However, I still really love Warcraft III; I find it a lot of fun
Grubby : “You don’t have to be fast to enjoy RTS.”
Me : Feeling excited.🤩
Grubby : “You just have to be smarter than the opponent.”
Me : Cry in the corner.😢
To be true, my main issue with returning to WC3 is that I could only get 10% out of the games potential with my low apm (I’m even to stupid to use hotkeys). It’s like playing chess but only knowing how to move the pawns 😂
This video is really inspiring for low apm folk like me.
You dont need high apm to have fun. You may not be playing against top rank players, but you can still have a good time fighting AI without high apm. My brother, my dad, and i are casual players that get together and slay some insane teams. None of us have high apm cause its that sweaty for us. Its a fun, casual experience
Great video. If being able to have pro-like mechanical skill was necessary to enjoy a game, there would be no such thing as recreational sports. Trying to take the APM out of RTS is like trying to make soccer without needing speed, body control, or shot power.
If you want to play soccer for fun, you join a league at your own level. For RTS, this matchmaking is done for you! Any game is not "too hard" if you're playing against a well-matched opponent.
If i want to play a pure strategy game ill play Prismata, which i do. But i also like RTS.
One of the best videos you ever posted. Thanks grub!
Do you remember the undead player Space? His motor skills were limited due to a muscle disorder and he was still able to compete at pro level. He proved that high APM is not what determines a good RTS player.
Maybe a mouse only challenge would be fun?:D
It's definitely not about APM. What's the point of clicking speed if u don't know where to click.
This video actually inspired me to try wc3 1v1 one more time, and it was really painful.
I had w3champions launcher so decided to try it. Picked orc, started game, took Far Seer, creeped a little, opponent destroyed my army, i wrote gg and went next game. It was pretty much the same. Realised that after 2 games lost only 100 mmr from 1500 basic, so decided to instantly quit next 3 games, to reveal my rank and not waste my time and time of my opponents.
Rating dropped only to 1200, and got small timeout for quiting, not big deal. Next game trying with BM, opponent scouted me with peon that already gives me bad vibes, and when i went to creep his Far Seer was already there, so he killed some my units, destroyed shop and i quit totally.
I'm and no other sane person would never go to concede 30 games in a row to even start playing a game. Why can't i start from lowest rank, when i almost never played online wc3? If i had a lot of time MAYBE i'd go read some tutorials on how to build, upgrade, look for timings, counters etc. But it's just impossible for new players to get into the game, that has mostly players with up to 20 years of experience ahead of you. Maybe if it had better rank system, or some in-game tutorials.
I'm not considering that i wanna start the game and win my first match, but at least to have chance to get out of my base, so i could start learn the game.
It's not about how big it is, it's how you use it.
Sadly war3 doesn't show current apm, cause when your openent attacked your avg, pretty much got 10 higher 80 -> 90. You kinda did what the the SC2 AI did when it got it's apm restricted, and played slow, to unleash all the apm in the fight.
I agree with you btw, but there is a minimum you should reaching whitch is about 120-150 with good decisions.
In sc2 just playing macro with zerg is +250 (that not a requirement, this is the number you get if you play without an opponent to practice maxing out.
As you said APM blaming is just an excuse
I'd say this is the RTS equivalent of playing without combos in fighting games and just focusing purely on fundamentals.
This is a perfect analogy. When I had lots of friends finally join me in the fgc after tekken 8 came out, I banned them from labbing combos until red-ranks and they're all there now!
Or playing chess without opening theory
I have max 90 apm in rts so idk
I honestly think that you don't need high APM to do well on ladder and enjoy in general RTS games. However, I am pretty sure high APM is required to win a competition.
Either way APM is not what matters, EPM is. And even then apm is a weird way to look at it because it's not about how fast you click, it's about knowing what you're supposed to do and jumping between tasks quickly. If I press 6 which is my recruitment hotkey, then I need to quickly press the correct hotkeys to get the right units, and the hard part isn't pressing the keys quickly, I can easily smash my keyboard to get a random assortment of units and open up 20 random menus at the same time. Instead the speed is limited by that I have to know which units I want to recruit, whether I need to tab to reach the right building, which hotkey I need to press for that unit and then remenbering where on the keyboard that key is.
When you get really good at that because youve played the game a lot it manifests as having higher EPM
Next challenge: win the w3champions ranked game without hotkeys or using only a standard one hotkeys
i had a really low apm like 70-80 on average and was able to get to rank 1 on the random team ladder back in the day.. was a lot of fun
1:09 grubby has a chess board on his shirt
Grubby: "its really hard to stay at low APM"
me: "dont know man, ita really easy for me to stay at low APM"
super helpful for nervous newer players like me!
just started to play wc3 a week ago and i gotta admit i have not won a single game on battlenet soo far :D. Cant rly seem to find a player as low of a lvl as me... Nice to see that can be ''slow'' and win, but you have to invest a lot of time into research to stand a chance
My APM is a solid 70, I think 70 APM is optimal most of the time.
i was going to uninstall wc3 for the simple reason that i sucked at micro and macro.Your video made me want to give it one more chanse.
Grubby could you talk about apm requirement between different games, like apm wc3 vs sc2?
Grubby may create a bigger, formal, video that stands out from regular W3 content so that non-rts fans will notice it.
I am now more confident thank you Mr. Grubby
Grubbytalks stealth uploaded a video to this channel under the guise of a game xD
Great video! :D
Imagine if wc3 had just frame inputs lol. If you perfectly cancel hero animations, the auto attack/spell does extra(more damage, lower cd, less mana used etc.)
Along with my 40-50 APM I also still have bad knowledge and build order despite playing since RoC launch. At this point I'm just old. Sometimes I get a nice carry in 4v4.
I think apm requirements are extremely fustrating, because a lot of the time (mostly in starscraft) you are using your apm on trying to get your base to do what you want.
My favourite part of rts has always been large scale strategy and unit interactions and having to remember to come back and tell my buildings to make another unit to remain effective is unnessesary and is an artifical limitation in the design of the game that is just memorisation which i think adds unessesary cognitive stress to players (especially newer ones)
I think the game should add more options to autobuild units when a building is finished, like the rightclick option in dawn of war. Maybe even let players plan out when and where buildings should be placed before the match, then let the player once they are in game make impactful informed decisions on how to modify their plan instesd of making them perform a challenging repetitive task to even get to the point of making a decision
My laptop is broken and I really want to play wcr sb it’s been another world for me I can’t wait to surrender myself to the Heart of the community again, I miss it ❤
Hard to play and hard to watch low apm. I wonder what the Median APM is and wheather or not people fail in RTS due to APM inability or the low effort of trying to understand the game. Game knowladge, buildorders, strategy etc.
I think its not problem if you have 40 apm as a beginner i been there before when i started to play Warcraft 3 online, like 3000 years before, you getting faster if you play more.
A low APM game with only group hotkeys (group 1 to 8) would be better, because a casual player does not use the other spell or build hotkeys.
I tend to think you fill in your spare time with high APM because of attention span. The game is too slow for you and you anticipate events too soon, so your brain get bored and you fill the extra time up with random or multiple clicks/button presses.
Wonderful talk, thank you
You know all the hotkeys. I would get lost😂
I feel like there are a lot of similarities between fighthing games and rts. Both of them where super popular in the past but died off, they both have a reputation of being extremely hard, they both have they bullshit stats that blind people on what the game actually is about (apm, super long and complicated combos).
Fighting games are having a revival lately but I am not sure about rts. Does anyone have more insight on this topic?
To be fair, look at faker, 4x world champion, he has the highest APM in the world, and I am not saying APM is the reason he reached his level but it definitly played a really big part in him being so good
Yes but you dont need to be in the top 100 of all players to enjoy the game, thats the point. These things just come with time.
Its like fighting games where you can stick to just proper spacing and fundamentals before going to combos in the first place. Theres even a game called footsies that has no combos whatever, just the basic fighting game fundamentals and it makes you realise how you win games even without knowing said combos.
That APM is put to effective use, though. Apparently, Faker is constantly F1-F5'ing to keep tabs on his teammates, last hitting, moving around, etc.
It makes me really curious what Uncapped Games showed you to make you introspect so much haha.
Haha indeed
Someone should make a mod for competitive RTS games where you insta lose if you cross a certain APM.
It'll add a tightrope intensity to the game and could corner us into new, unimaginable levels of efficiency and creativity.
That's an amazing idea. Like the runaway bus that can't go under a certain speed or it'll explode but the opposite. lol
I suspect that we are receiving less warcraft 3 videos since the grubby talks aggressive promotion
Total war warhammer multiplayer isn’t something you pause either, but not sure if that’s more apm or decision making either.
I don't think you can "simulate" low APM just by clicking less. People click less, because they can't figure out what to do so fast. I don't think it's the actual clicking that's the problem.
The problem is a lot of people associate high apm with being good at the game, and this then forms a pseudo gatekeeping element for people that want to get into the game
that's exactly how me and my friend play this game xD
One of the best video where we can learn way easier)
I remember you said, that you know how your viewers have 40 apm, when you play blindfolded for the video 😅
Man this seems like a hot topic lol even your in-game chatters suddenly activated their braincells for a heated debate and I guess it will be the same here on RUclips.
Indeed an interesting phenomenon. From the view numbers so far, people do not like this concept as much xD
lovely video 🔥☺
Elite content
I cant really explain why, but wc3 was always far more stressful for me to play than sc2.
Nooo Grubby you should spam the rally button
APM? At the moment I count Actions per Hour and it won't get better the older I get.
Deliberate actions > spamming
You realize that average people have way less than 50 amp, right? And to build up to 100 you have to be trained, especially in older age. I made this path and strongly believe this was a bad time investment. Would be way happier to train flamenco guitar for example.
I’d like to see AI play the game at different apm restrictions
Almost every video, Grubby viewers donate unrelated stuff of whats going on, sometimes makes me think that they either are trolls or very stupidly annoying
Hey Grubby I play slowly!! 😅
Personally I don't think you need high APM to win (as I think strategy, and knowing the game, counters, timing etc., is more important) but it would definitely be considered an asset assuming players are of relative skill level. I think this is due to the real time related elements with which high APM can assist with multitasking, and getting back to your units to micro them/maneuver them more effectively, managing your multiple bases efficiently or when some players try to attack with different squads of units at multiple different locations either to distract you, etc. Higher apm I think can potentially allow you to respond more quickly resulting in the loss of less units. Having the capacity to do more action per minute as the game begins to ramp up can definitely win you fights in my opinion. In the early game it matter less i think. Higher apm can also help with microing especially when you start having a larger army and need to micro and/or manage them.
i think you dont need high apms and insane micro with 300 apm but, with less then 50 you should consider maybe going into a other online Strategie game just for your own sanity and fun. But when you have fun it its perfectly fine, just think it wont be for most player escpally in a game like wc 3 where you encounter most likely players that played for Years and are more skilled since its so old.
APM is a very simple and visible metrics. It is quite spectacular so you admire it instantly when you see pro players while the intricacy of the decision-making is by nature much more difficult to appreciate and comprehend. When the average players has a bad game, it is quite easy for him to see that he missed a surround or was too slow to cast a spell while he may miss the fact that those mechanics were only required because of a poor decision he made. Another aspect is the fact that the games that we watch are mostly played by "elite" players which is a sample highly affected by the survivorship bias as becoming an elite players with a low APM count is insanely difficult.
@@xelinco3005 The impact is just bigger. To turn it around there will no pro player with bad apm. You see it even in games like LoL or Dota which are just focused on one unit to controle, what difference it makes to have great apm.
If you weight every aspect of the game, you will have a different factor for each component and APM is the biggest one.
When people like Grubby can just block away my units the complete fight and build in this time in base and attack at a third front, it does not matter how good my strategy is my units will not even be able to do damage just to the fact that I get outplayed so hard. And even if I can stand up in battle, his macro game is so much better due to his apm that I already lost the game in long term.
@@jesuseinstein4706 APM alone is quite meaningless but yes you definitely need high APM to be the best in the world and good decision-making won't carry 30 APM.
@@xelinco3005 exactly thats my point, for the top everyrhing has to fit.
But my assumption would be that someone with Just great apm will reach Higher mmr than someone with just game knowledge and 30 apm.
Which mmr that would be is Up for a different discussion.
Rip apm70 for those who remember
i don't think any blizzard game is really an RTS. they're more... RTT - real time tactics.
Save that for CoH and DoW 2.
Cool!
The GOAT
Next play with mouse only
Grubby, you're failing to realise that you're fluctuating between very high and low APM. You're lowering your APM during less important moments only to turn up your APM on highly critical moments. The average player can't do this, they will have a generally lower APM across the board. This is not a good example of overcoming low APM with skill/knowledge (other advantages).
Yea but ur 90apm is super precies because of ur natural high apm