Melkor | The Power of Creation and the Secret Fire
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 14 июн 2024
- Of Melkor and the Secret Fire discusses the complex relationship between Melkor and the mysterious power of Eru in Tolkien's Legendarium. Why did he want it? Why couldn't he obtain it? Why did his motives change with the coming of Elves and Men into the world? I explore the Dark Lord's history with the Secret Fire.
► Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
1:41 - What is the Secret Fire?
3:01 - Impatience and Sub-creation
5:08 - Eru and the Flame Imperishable
5:59 - The corruption of the Sun/Arien
9:53 - Melkor and creation
11:12 - Examining the Music of the Ainur
13:43 - The arrival of the Children of Ilúvatar
15:59 - Melkor declaring war
17:52 - Dwarves, Orcs, and puppet races
21:13 - Melkor's vision of Eru's world
► Support the Channel:
Support the channel through Patreon - / stevengibb
Support the channel through RUclips - / @theredbook
View Members-only Videos - • Members-only videos
► Supporters:
Patricia, Dovid Nachson Albright, Moses Gunn, ncv1993, Oliver Falangan, Seraphim38, Victus Schmmidtt, Douglas Harley, Ian Haydel, Joe Raffurty, Master of Dungeons, TB, Adam Dallas29, Carden, Carson Miller, Catherine G White, Connor Mulders, David Lafferty, Ess Jay Dubs, Jim Loughlin, Molly Barger, Nima, Ryan H, Sko, VoxPhantom, InconceivableDreamer234, boi sophies
► On-Screen Notes:
Not included
► Artwork:
All artists, images, and links to sources are found by following the link below. If you would like to see your artwork appear in videos or discuss the use of your artwork on the channel, please get in touch.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
► Thumbnail art :
The Music of the Gods - KipRasmussen ( kiprasmussenart)
► Audio:
The following music was used for this media project:
Virtutes Vocis by Kevin MacLeod
Link: incompetech.filmmusic.io/song...
License: filmmusic.io/standard-license
The Reason for Haunting - Royalty-Free Horror Music by Ghost Stories Incorporated (ghoststoriesincorporated.band...)
Licensed under Creative Commons BY Attribution 3.0 License
(creativecommons.org/licenses/...)
► Disclaimer:
All videos are the result of my own research into the works of Tolkien unless otherwise stated. I do not claim rights to any audiobooks, music, or artwork used. All scripts and editing are my own work. Permission has been requested from all copyright holders.
#melkor #tolkien #secretfire #legendarium #lotr #melkor #valar #silmarillion 
Развлечения
Does anyone else consider that the decision of Eru to give true life to the creations of Aule was partly an attempt to show Melkor his error? Both Aule and Melkor were impatient and desired to create for themselves, but Aule was rewarded because he desired children to teach to serve Eru's creation, and accepted Eru's will that he could not create life on his own. Melkor desired subjects to rule over, essentially slaves, and rejected the idea that any power was beyond him.
That was always how I interpreted it, that Aule was simply impatient to spread his love.
Yes, I mention this briefly in the video when I talk about Melkor making war on Aule. Aule made a mistake but admitted it, was willing to fix it, and even 'made' the Dwarves out of impatience without any malice or offence intended. Melkor desired to be a Lord of wills and none of his acts were to further Eru's glory.
@@vartanpapazian8342 😢
@@TheRedBook Melkor was just made too powerful, which made him ultimately want to become like Eru himself. And because this was impossible he would become completely insane and became Morgoth.
@@morgothfromangband6082 That's what I thought, too. If Eru is all-knowing and Melkor is closest to him, it would make sense if he has the same desire to create, but not the power to do so. And so, is almost doomed to go his path.
This is why I love Gandalf’s reveal in the confrontation with the Balrog:
“I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn.”
Literally he’s listing who this balrog is picking a fight with: a servant of Eru and the Flame Imperishable, wielder of one of the three elven rings of power. He even calls out the balrog as one of the cowards who hid in Utumno when Melkor was trounced by the Valar.
Sure, if the Balrog managed to escape, he’d have a big secret about Gandalf, but the wizard is putting it all on the line and nobody else in the story even realizes it. Nor do most of the readers who just think all the language sounds cool but meaningless.
I disagree about Gandalf's words having any relation to his Ring of Power but I agree with the rest. I've been meaning to do a Gandalf's words explained video since starting the channel and haven't gotten round to it yet. I've got my videos planned out for November and December but perhaps it will be after that.
That was a great line
But I don't know if it was much of a reveal to be honest
The Balrog probably already knew who gandalf was
Or atleast that he's a maiar
Some of the Elves too knew he was old, very old and where he came from
They could probably guess the rest
As for the Dwarves, men and hobbits
It matters little what they heard as they wouldn't have realised anything and even if they did, little could they do in their lifetimes which are but a fraction of the wizards and the elves
Those were not days where information spread easily
Also, Servant of secret fire maybe loosely interpreted as being on the "good" side
The side of life and Valar
It doesn't exactly say he's a maiar
I also don't think he was mocking the balrog as a coward
Although it would be fair
Balrogs were jailers occasionally and sometimes were basically Bouncers and were seen walking around the walls of uttumno resembling something like a fire wall seen from afar
That's why they are called flame of udun ( uttumno)
Totally agree about the rest and most readers not catching it
I don't know about the ring of fire
I thought he references that but some people think otherwise
I haven't given it enough thought
He does it to stop the Balrog in its tracks. When he says "You cannot pass" he's not Telling the Balrog to stop, he's commanding him to stop in the name of Eru, so the Balrog literally cannot pass and attack the fellowship. It's similar to the casting out of demons in Christianity. In addition his choice of words make clear Gandalf cannot be harmed by the Balrog's fire.
So cool man thanks 😁
I’ve always felt that Gandalf is declaring to the Balrog that he knows what he really is, a Flame of Udun; a servant of Melkor and a traitor of the Maiar and Eru. While he declares himself as: A Servant Of The Secret Fire. A servant still of Eru as the Balrog once was and a fellow Maiar. Serving as a warning to turn the Balrog back, less they were both to be destroyed battling one another, which Gandalf was more than willing to do to protect the Fellowship and his friends from the Balrog.
I love the nuance between Melkor and Aulë. Aulë is almost like a boy trying to imitate his father out of respect, admiration and love, as well as anxiety for beings he's already cares for before they even came to being. And upon being caught and chastised, he's willing to destroy the fruits of his work before Eru even demands it--which I think Tolkien realizes is extremely painful for any creative mind, let alone a craftsman. Melkor on the other hands always plays the usurper. He's unable to humble himself, he must replace Eru or destroy himself trying to pervert creation. And that seems to spill over into the corruption of Sauron--both creation of Eru and follower of Aulë. You could probably write a thesis on the family psychology of Eru and the Valar.
Beautiful irony that Melkor's tune probably was the first act of Free Will in all of Creation. Leading directly to the next Melody, now including the Children gifted with such power. And he did not understand of course, that he helped create something even more awesome. Eru seems to love Free Will. Powerful lesson there, Professor :)
You know, I’ve found that so many Tolkien channels are hesitant to delve into the esoterica, so called “deep lore,” of the legendarium, as it can be so hard to digest for casual viewers who simply want their questions answered. And yet, you my friend are a shining example of why that is regressive. Here, your channel seeks the many different “deep places” of Tolkien lore, while also delving into the reasons The Author might’ve had for different choices he made. I respect and find it extremely refreshing. I must say, I’m loving this channel and patiently await more content.
Well said! Couldn’t agree more
The depth this video goes into is impressive and it really makes one thing absolutely clear..Tolkien was a genius
Agreed, Greg. So much so that I've read plenty of other interpretations that differ from mine and find a lot of them to be fascinating. That level of depth is unfathomable to me.
Yeah you said that correctly That's for sure. The depth of these videos is extremely impressive and I think Tolkien would be impressed with them himself. Too bad RUclips wasn't around when Tolkien was amending a lot of his works. Who knows the amount of content we would still have to go through. One brain I wish we had the technology to preserve would have been his.
The BEST Tolkien related channel. Phenomenal presentation, incredible usage of the music, as well as the artwork, and a remarkable pacing. I love that you capture the seriousness within the works of Tolkien. KEEP UP THE GREAT JOB!
Thanks a lot Nathan :D
There are several really good channels but I have to admit this one is probably close for number one. The professionalism and work they put into these kind of things is unbelievable. I guarantee you Tolkien is proud or would be. The amount of work he put in to the history of Middle Earth is just staggering. It gives me motivation to put to script some of the things I have learned that nobody else has. Unfortunately I do not have the command of the English or any language that Tolkien does.
You've just helped me gain more perspective as to the orcs - why they hate Morgoth so much, even if their fear of him has the mastery. Thanks for the video - awesome, and now subscribed
Thanks, Mike. And yes, I didn't even mention here about Orcs hating Morgoth, but they certainly did and Tolkien did say as much. Creatures of hate, hating the one who 'made' them. A vicious cycle of corruption.
Thanks for subscribing too, much appreciated :)
@@TheRedBook Genuine pleasure.
Things I appreciate about your videos, compared to others: the depth and nuance of the analysis - your grasp of the extended materials (both knowledge and understanding) - your choices of interesting and challenging topics (vs the typical descriptive overviews and FAQs) - the soothing voiceover and relaxed pace - the b/w images and selective transitions to colour - the fact that you always credit the artist - the graphics and overall presentation. Thanks and keep it up!
As a Roman Catholic I really feel that Tolkien imbued so much truth into his work which is why it has stood the test of time.
He created a mythology that makes a lot more sense than the bible.
Although more influenced by christianity than not, Middle earth is a bit more nuanced and incorporates atleast some eastern ideas beyond mere abrahamic ones
If Tolkien was born in better, less warring times, perhaps he could have incorporated even more cultures and new concepts
@@Phoenix-King-ozai For example? just curious.
By touching on such deep topics, you set yourself apart from other channels. Congratulations.
Thank you for saying so :)
What a joy to come back from work to :-)
When I was at University in Kingston I found that they had the complete History of Middle Earth and I went through the whole thing over a year (didn't put as much effort into my degree, unfortunately).
Thank you for exploring these ideas so thoroughly and thoughtfully, it's genuinely refreshing.
A fellow reader of the History of Middle-earth. Interesting that you read it through from start to finish. I jumped around the volume depending what I was interested in but I think it's a must read. These days I tend to focus on the final 3 volumes but my Archives series makes use of the Book of Lost Tales most of the time.
I hope you enjoyed the video :)
By far one the best channels on YT who covers Tolkiens works.
Thanks :) nice to receive such high praise!
wow. just wow. of all the lotr channels out there, you are honestly above and beyond them all. So much more substance and backstory. so enjoyable. Bless you!
Thank you Gabe! Not to sound arrogant but I do hope the channel stands out in that way. Less about the facts and more about what the facts mean.
Another video about Melkor as voted for by you. I hope you enjoyed it and will check out the community posts in the coming days for updates about future videos. Upcoming content includes a response to theories about the Mouth of Sauron, a video on Dragons and the Door of Night, as well as my next part in my series about the One Ring of Sauron.
If you want to get involved in helping to decide on interesting topics to cover or if you want early access to videos, consider joining the channel - ruclips.net/p/UUMOPOz2P0OxWp0ij0K4BsLsRw
*7:50** wait, wait: so he rxped her to death?* hope thats in the amazon show. _JC
A huge thank you for the video on my favourite topic! I always take the Melkor topic too close to my heart, and you digged so deep into it that I think I'll have to watch it several times to get my own thoughts back in order.
I think that Melkor's loath to other's creations in general and to the children of Illuvatar in particular, and his subsequent obsession with the desire to corrupt other creatures' free will is not the result of his lack of understanding of the idea of free will in general, but the act of vengeance for the fact that he was robbed of that free will - as a creator.
It seems logical to me that a person with so much creative potential will feel inferior and eventually will fall into jealousy or rebelion, being deprived of the ability to bring to life what his imagination can create or being obliged to lay his ideas on the Procrustean bed of someone else's strict plan. It is in the nature of all highly creative persons to always be devoured by the desire to bring their ideas to life. Maybe you know that feeling: when you have an idea or an image that seems so cool and complete to you, it is itching your brain, as if it has its own will to live, and it ia almost painful if you can't let it out.
Melkor is like an artist who has talent, brushes and canvas, and is sorely lacking in paints.
Thus, a question: why creating someone so mighty and leave him without a tool to realize his potential?
Since I got acquainted with the idea of "evil for good", I started thinking that Eru knew exactly how painful it was and deliberately pushed Melkor to the point of "breaking bad" to use him for the purposes of progress of "good" afterwards (which is a very cruel idea, but Eru's statement that Melkor's rage did not disrupt his plans proves that). I wonder what the story would have been if Eru hadn't tried to put pressure on Melkor and had chosen to support his original creativity instead.
But I also had a theory that through this Eru wanted to teach him to balance things so that Melkor could invent his own paints - awaken his own Flame Imperishable within his spirit, because the flame that feeds the creation is probably something that you can share only with the creation - not with other authors.
As always, I accept the possibility of being too loyal a judge in this subject, so objectively I may be wrong.
I think there's a part of the script that I am not happy with the way I worded it. At one point I said his lack of understanding of the power and purpose of Eru, and his own free will, led to his anger towards the Children. This makes it seem like I'm saying he didn't understand free will. I was meaning his lack of understanding of Eru, coupled with Melkor being allowed to rebel in the first place due to free will. I recorded that part a few times and should have changed it :D . But anyway, I do agree with your assessment. He wished to be able to create and he could..to a point, and that would infuriate him. Why would he be allowed to wish to create like that without being able to.
I've said something similar for many years now about Melkor. He was created as the mightiest of his peers. To the point where Tolkien says that in his making he had to be so great that the rest of the Valar combined wouldn't be able to stop him. There is a purpose behind making one of them so powerful. It was for him to use that imagination to devise and create. Someone like Manwe was then to carry out and improve upon those ideas. It seems plausible that Eru would know that Melkor holding such power and imagination would then think above his own position. The disparity then leading to conflict, and in conflict comes the devising of things no one thought of before. The discord of Melkor gets adopted into the Music and those creations of the rest of the Ainur are even changed through it. The creation of greater wonders. There has to be that purpose. I suppose it's an excuse for me at some point to make more videos about Melkor and his purpose.
@@TheRedBookYes, looks like I misunderstood that part, thank you for the detailed explanation :)
Are you sure that Melkor actually did not understand Eru and his plan? It seems more likely to me that he did, but he was not eager to participate in it. Imagine a creature with so much knowledge, skill and might: I'll bet he felt like a professor involved in the construction of a sand fortress together with kids. What he really wanted, in my opinion, is a piece of canvas for his own to do what was more interesting for him. It is not that he was displeased with Eru not taking care of the Void - it is more like he wanted to reserve it for his own creations, since he had so many ideas that one world could not comprise. Their conflict with Eru reminds me of Chaos and Order. Chaos is multiplicity, order is singularity. Eru wanted just one but thoroughly thought-out world, and those who were devoted to him accepted this idea. While Melkor was an experimenter and wished to create many things - maybe imperfect, but absolutely exciting.
I agree with you that Melkor's rebillion was the original plan of Eru, since I cannot imagine why a wise creature like Eru could not come up with the idea of a compromise, like "you work for me now, and I will give you freedom to bring your own ideas to life afterwards". To me it is just as simple as this - and no wars would follow. I know highly creative people that cooperate perfectly well on that condition. But instead, Eru decided to simply knock off his arrogance - clearly the way to nowhere...
Ad oh, the idea to make more videos about Melkor and his purpose sounds absolutely great :) I'm a bit hooked on this topic.
@@neant2046 - Certainly plausible. I suppose I interpret it as if he understood then he wouldn't have rebelled in the first place. Or at least he wouldn't have continued to rebel. Even during the Music, the new theme starts and he instantly rebels, and this is repeated. Eru being able to adopt it for the greater glory is Eru being a God beyond comprehension. At least that's how I view it. If he understood Eru, then he could have still failed while being forgiven and having his creations adoped, like with Aule. He had no faith in Eru, and if you don't have faith in Eru, surely in Ea that means you don't understand him?
Well, I suppose with your second point it's that we can't really grasp the mind of Eru. He can't impart some free will. If Melkor keeps choosing to rebel, he has to be allowed to. Eru can't force him to a choice. He has to be given the freedom to return to the fold. Eru seems to step in when it comes to the banishment of Melkor, at least according to Morgoth's Ring. Perhaps the only necessary step to allow the continued freedom of the rest of creation.
My next Melkor video will probably be based on my article in the latest Amon Hen, which I didn't know they were going to use because I submitted it about a year ago. It is about the redemption of Melkor and exactly what we are talking about...why he was allowed to be so evil and why he wasn't stopped earlier. I don't think I'll squeeze it into the schedule for the rest of 2021 but I don't wait too long between Melkor videos!
I find it interesting that we have somewhat different views of Melkor and Eru in regards to the text but that I find your view completely valid as well. The strength of Tolkien's writing at work.
@@TheRedBook It sounds very logical when you put it this way.
Now I can't but admit that I have problems with accepting Eru as an absolute authority beyond comprehension, hm. My vision of him and Melkor is very personal, while yours is more objective - and much closer to what Tolkien imagined, I guess.
Tolkien created a great story indeed, and you succeeded in understanding of his vision. But it is nice to hear that you are open to alternative interpretations. I believe that disagreement with the author at some points only means that he wrote the right story, since the right story, in my opinion, should not only provide answers, but also raise another bunch of questions. It should make you think and doubt, and look deeper into things around you and within you. And probably even wright another story that raises your own questions. Tolkien's books still make me reconsider things every time I re-read them, even after so many years.
@@neant2046 - You've hit the nail on the head when it comes to what I attempt to do here. I try to talk about what Tolkien imagined, if the text is there for me to interpret it that way. My personal views on Eru, the actions of the Valar, and Melkor, etc, are quite far from what Tolkien imagined but I want to talk about it as close to what he intended. That still leaves a lot of room for my own interpretations to come through. Some then mistake it for my personal views in my own life...which really isn't the case (especially when it comes to the idea of Eru).
Different interpretations are always welcome. The only thing I hate is when someone reinterprates straight facts. I get quite a few comments like that, picking and choosing which text to include and exclude in their opinions, all while saying I'm wrong - I will admit I loathe that. Someone is free to interpret Eru as the true evil of the world but if they start trying to justify it through the text then that's a bit silly because he clearly wasn't according to the guy who wrote it. If you disagree with my view on purely subjective matters then it would be strange to get upset about it. I'm no authority :D .
Im about to watch this while sipping a freshly made coffee and some choc biscuits! PERFECTION!
I really love how Eru takes even Melkor's Discord and makes it part of the music. He doesn't throw it out and begin anew, in which Melkor could claim a kind of victory. Even Melkor's attempt to ruin or twist the music is used to increase the music's beauty.
Watching this makes me think of Melkor not as a terrible Dark Lord but of an angry child who runs down an isle of a grocery store knocking items off the shelves cause his parents won't give him what he wants.
Exactly! Even though most of us love the evil characters and Dark Lords, Tolkien clearly didn't mean for us to find them admirable. They are highly flawed and troubled figures with severe emotional problems :D
In the name of Eru, i do declare this the greatest Tolkien channel i have ever stumbled upon. Very very pleasant to listen to you and your thoughts of the Tolkien world and works. Very thoughtful and great insight into the tales.
Such fantastic content, this delves so deep into Tolkien's work in a way which I've never seen before. Makes me realise that this man has created the greatest fiction ever made, and that's no hyperbole
Thanks! And I agree. There's a reason I can't stop reading :D
Your channel is a master class in the analysis and reflection of Tolkien’s work. I look forward to every episode for the artistry, depth and range you bring to each topic. Without speculating, you bring your audience the experience of thinking after Tolkien’s thought, for me best understood as it aligns with the Myth That Is True. Tolkien has helped me better understand my own faith. Thank you so much, as always, for an episode I’ll be listening to again. I am waiting (patiently, because such good work takes time) for your episodes on Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, a story of immense beauty and importance. May you have joy in your work!
Just imagine if Melkor wouldn't have grown impatient. Imagine the great feats that he could have accomplished alongside Manwë and Tulkas. I mean i know that there wouldn't be the true story that professor Tolkien wrote and thought about, but just to think that Melkor was the greatest of the Ainûr really gets my thinking gears going about a parallel/different story
great channel man, Love to see more Tolkien Lore channels popping up. Keep the Vids up!
Among the many influences for the secret fire concept, i think it is similar to the Christian Holy Spirit.
Reference from the history of middle earth: "Only one thing i have added, the fire that giveth life and reality, and behold, the secret fire burnt at the heart of the world - Ilúvatar". And i think that the flame imperishable is a standing power creating life in other planets-quote: "Others there were, countless to our thought know each and numbered in the mind of Ilúvatar, whose labour lay elsewhere and in other regions and histories of the great tale, amid stars remote and worlds beyond the reach of the furthest thought. But of these we know nothing and cannot know, thouth the Valar of Arda, maybe, remember them all". And expanding the universe-Ëa - quote: "(...) or who consider only the immeasuble vastness of the World (universe), which still the Ainur are shaping".
Hm... Good observations, but I would guess that the Flame Imperishable (= the Secret Fire?) is more comparable to the Logos, i.e. the Son, in Christian theology. Like the logos in the Gospel of John, the Imperishable Flame "is with" Ilúvatar.
@@benthomas7629 Regarding the Secret Fire, or Flame Imperishable, Tolkien's Note 11 in the History of middle earth:
"This is actually already glimpsed in the Ainulindale', in which reference is made to the 'Flame Imperishable'. This appears to mean the Creative activity of Eru (in some sense distinct from or within Him), by which things could be given a 'real' and independent (though derivative and created) existence. The Flame Imperishable is sent out from Eru, to dwell in the heart of the world, and the world then Is, on the same plane as the Ainur, and they can enter into it. But this is not, of course, the same as the re-entry of Eru to defeat Melkor. It refers rather to the mystery of 'authorship', by which the author, while remaining 'outside' and independent of his work, also 'indwells' in it, on its derivative plane, below that of his own being, as the source and guarantee of its being".
About Jesus - the son:
"What then was this hope, if you know?' Finrod asked.
'They say,' answered Andreth: 'they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This they say also, or they feign, is a rumour that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing."
And I think that Jesus is quoted in the Silmarillion:
"Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not yer conceived be brought into Ëa, and evil yet be good to have been".
There are many Tolkien channels. Most are very good. Yours goes a level deeper that makes it special.
Red Book, superior video! You really bring out the mythic wonder of Tolkien's work. Sincerely
Great video, I love this stuff about the creation of the universe and timeless halls, it's like learning the metaphysics of arda.
Couldn't agree more. I hope to do another video at some point on what all these terms mean; the likes of the void, Ea, Arda, Timeless Halls, etc.
I've enjoyed every video you have put out but this one may well be your finest.
Thank you :D . It certainly took the longest to make but I love talking about Melkor and put a lot of thought into his character.
beautiful work! i actually never knew this what if about Morgoth and actually creating his own creatures instead of corrupting others, very interesting
Thanks! Glad you found something new to ponder from the video :D
16:06 I always found it interesting that both Sauron and Saruman were originally serving aule.
Very interesting indeed. I feel like I say it all the time to people but I 100% have a video planned for the future discussing that exact thing.
Yes, I always felt like Tolkien was making an indirect comment here about science/technology/industrialisation for its own sake. Not surprising given his experience in the war and his well-known nostalgia for more pastoral times (or at least an appreciation for an idealised version thereof).
@@unregisteredalien I feel you are likely exactly correct. Sure himself always means well? But his “creations” (not literal) and his endeavors are the ones that eventually, inevitably always lead down a dark road, even though they are also unavoidable.
And Feanor. Three very willful, ambitious persons.
@@TheRedBook I feel that it is no accident that Aule’s wife is Yavanna. With his distaste for industrialization its clear to me at least that Sauron and Saruman as Aule’s Maiar show the evil corrupting extent to which industry can go without a love for nature holding them back.
Meanwhile the dwarves, created by Aule who presumably loves nature as he loves his wife, enrich the world and try to bring out the natural beauty of their caverns as demonstrated by Gimli discussing the crystal caverns.
Told you we'd be waiting! Top level content as always
Yes, it's good seeing all the familiar faces :D thanks!
Great Video! Detailed and lots of food for thought, much appreciated 🍺
Glad you enjoyed it!
Nicely done!
Nice work dude thanks
You have a knack for picking the most interesting parts of the stories.
Happy to hear that !
I think a fascinating video would be one focused entirely on the relationship between Melkor/Morgoth and Mairon/Sauron.
When I do my "motives of Sauron" video (whenever that will be) it references Melkor a lot. I also have an idea about Melkor's hypothetical thoughts on the One Ring. You are right though, that would be an interesting video to make!
Simply brilliant presentation
Thank you :D
the first video i watched and learnd somenting i didnt know for melkor. Cheers!
these are great videos, I’ve watched a tonne of Tolkien lore and thought i might stop at in some other content creator. But i really think your analysis is one of the best though, really good!
Glad to hear that Marcus, thanks for the comment :D
19:30 Great distinction!!! It illustrates Melkor’s complete corruption 💯😈📝
New video and omg this topic
Very enjoyable thanks
Amazing channel and videos thank my friend greetings from Canada 🙃
Thank you for the video
Heard so many new things and learned so many new aswel
I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten
Is that you Gandalf? :D
Thanks Montie!
Awesome as usual
👍Thanks Dovid 👍
Right on, been looking forward to this!
Took me a bit longer than usual to make but I think it's a good one :D
@@TheRedBook
I agree, excellent and informative.
Plus, your style of narration is a bit hypnotic. ✌
Hypnotic could been boring and monotone, which some have accused me of on here :D
Aule: Wants to make life.
Eru: You little scamp.
Melkor: Wants to create life.
Eru: I'm going to lock a very big chain around you until time ends.
I enjoyed the video and was impressed.
Thanks!
I'll say it again, you are so much better than the other Tolkien channels. You're more of an academic than a fan.
PS, ScreenRant only exists to meme. They are to literary analysis as the Marvel cinematic universe is to literature.
LMAOOOOO That last part made me physically die.
cool video mate really enjoyed it
Glad you enjoyed it
Great work cheers
Thanks 👍
Great video!
Thanks Robert :D
Never read the books, but now I don't need to. These vids are awesome. Keep it up!
Oh no, that's the opposite of what I want to do with these videos. Please read them...but also keep watching the videos haha .Thanks a lot!
Another great video thx a lot
Glad you enjoyed it
Watching some of these videos a second time and by God they are good! You definitely pick up the underlying themes in Tolkien's work. You mentioned towards the end of this video Melkor's nihilism, that is something else which Tolkien Lore commented on, and it's almost sad what Melkor had become were it not for all the suffering he caused.
But since Melkor is an expression of Illuvatar's thought, is Melkor what an evil God would look like? Or is Melkor literally necessary evil to ensure there can be good?
Melkor is necessary to understand what 'good' is and how turning from that path is essentially, 'evil', For goodness to prevail, there has to be something against it. It's interesting to imagine Melkor as being what an evil God would be like - because many of his actions and goals were due to his position, his lack of total power, control, and authority. If he had all of that, what would he have done with it? But as we are told numerous times, nothing is evil in the beginning, Melkor included. All have a choice and Melkor chose to abuse the power he held and turn from those of his Order and from Eru himself - but he was free to do so. I can't say he is what an evil God would be because if he truly was a God he would be able to do those things that made him turn from good in the first place.
SImply watching this video makes it much more clear how much Gandalf's remarks to the Balrog must have stung:
"I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor! The Dark Fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun!"
Excellent.
Many thanks!
Thanks!
Too kind Thomas, thanks a lot for the support :)
As a writer who has just begun to flesh out the mythology of my fantasy trilogy, I am once again reminded that I stand on the shoulders of giants - particularly Tolkien's.
The tallest giant of them all!
The best channel best video. ♥️♥️♥️♥️
Superb video!
P. S. Gosh, need to re-read Morgoth's Ring.
The first volume of HoMe I always recommend to people :D
@@TheRedBook It'll have to wait until I finish 7000 words on capital budgeting. Right now my brain is full of things like capital adequacy ratio, counter-cyclic buffer, risk-weighted assets and other scary words. :D But if there are people who actually enjoy doing their homework, I am one of them, at least with respect to this particular one. :D
I have a question, though:
When Eru says "you will see there is nothing you do that has not its uttermost source in me" (sorry if inaccurate, quoting from memory), had he already written the history of the world before the Music began? Or did he write it as the Music unfolded? Sometimes I am under the impression that the second and third themes were ad hoc decisions to incorporate the discord of Melkor. In the former case it would mean Eru knew he needed someone to mess things up for it all to play out as he intended and he chose Melkor to be this someone and for this very reason made him the most powerful. In the latter case, perhaps initially he had other plans for Melkor or no particular plans?
Anyway, even if Eru initially hadn't thought of his children, they came with the music and the music came from Eru, so technically it's not contradicting the concept, but was the coming of the children planned out before the music, or was the third theme only created when Melkor arose?
I always personally theorized that the secret fire is free will, and that this was why melkor would never be able to harness, grasp, or understand it, even though he himself was kindled by it, just as everyone else. The very nature of what melkor wanted (subjugation, adoration, and dominion of all sentient life) goes against, and even defeats the purpose of it. The very thing u want requires you to stamp your coveted prize out of existence to attain it. Would be ironic and amusing, were that the case. Just my personal interpretation tho
Love the videos Red Book......Anyone else here ever thought of the Demi Gods - Valar - as each one representing a different faculty of a person and Eru being the "self" almost in a Jungian way? I thought thats what they were supposed to represent... So Ulmo would be the intuition - god of the depths - talks to people in dreams; Manwe is inspiration - God of lofty things and knowing most the mind of Eru; Tulkas being playful competition; Nienna being compassion, empathy and sorrow; Mandos would be memory and his spouse the maintainer of life story coherence and meaning making(but his capacity of doom sayer confuses the shitt out my conceptualization though); Orome would be competive competion or serious competition; Aule is the drive for learning and skill development; And the dreadful Melkor would be anger and the shadow - one who arises in might and fucks everyone up. I know i missed some but, to be honest, my take only makes sense for some of the valar. Whats more, the role the Ainur would as subsidary faculties, completely derails that train of thought for me. But idk, inspiration knowing the will of the self the most; Mandos the "keeper of the dead", being married to the goddess of narrative coherence, just kinda seems to beg that interpretation.....my comment is kinda late to the game but, if amy fellow straglers read this.
Wonderful theological perception and grasp of a wide range of facets of Tolkien’s legendarium. I believe he drew upon many existing pre-traditions, as you know, but chiefly upon Christian/Catholic dogma regarding the creation, and also some very key motifs from early (2nd Century BCE-2nd Century CE) rabbinical Jewish, Jewish-Christian, and so-called “Christian gnostic” speculations about the Genesis myths and the involvement of both a demiurge, an Archon, and various angels in the primeval creative act(s). Tolkien’s depiction of Aule’s secret creation of the dwarves and his inability to impart true independent life/will to them, apart from Eru, is highly reminiscent of somewhat obscure Christian-esoteric narratives hailing from the 2nd Century CE-narratives translated by some of Tolkien’s rough contemporaries. He would have known about these documents and early studies, as well as the unique motifs. Fascinating. At all events, yours is the most insightful and probative Tolkien scholarship I have ever encountered to date. A true delight and presented superbly. Well done!
"Deep in their dark hearts they loathed the Master they served in fear."
11:36 text "Their thought was distrubed". Art imitates life, subcreation imitates the corruption of the original?
When I think about Melkor, I'm reminded of how each of the Ainur were born out of some aspect of Eru's mind or thought. Melkor strikes me then as a paradox, because it seems he was born out of the part of Eru that desired to create. But the nature of what he was precluded that as something he could do. So I ask myself, if God suddenly couldn't be God, or something else took the mantle from him (and his ability to create), would he end up like Melkor? Like, is Melkor the inevitable consequence of being Not-God but born out of the thought of God that likes being God? 🤔
I have two new suggestions for the orcs' origins. At least, they're new to me, and I'd like to know if others have offered them, as well as what people think. Both respond to Tolkien’s discomfort with the idea that orcs are corrupted elves - and to my discomfort too. Here’s the first:
Ilúvatar gave the orcs life after Morgoth created them - just as Ilúvatar gave life to dwarves after Aulë’s creation and to ents at Yavanna’s request.
Cooperation between Ilúvatar and a Vala is the only certain path Tolkien reveals for the creation in Arda of life, other than elves and men. And this would explain why we know nothing of orcs’ creation. It was between Melkor and Ilúvatar, with no witnesses. Further, this theory would fit Tolkien’s original idea that Melkor created orcs from stone. Aulë created dwarves of the stuff of earth too - and each Vala would have needed Ilúvatar’s help to give them real life.
Further, Aulë and Melkor were the most alike of the Valar. It follows that they created similar things with similar aid from their Father.
We may recoil at the thought of Ilúvatar participating in the creation of evil. But He created Melkor himself and much other evil, directly or indirectly. And His mind is unknowable. (“The Lord works in mysterious ways.”) Plus, we don’t know if orcs are utterly evil.
God these videos are so well done.
Thank you very much!
I want to recommend a topic which is Tolkien's alternative ending for Smeagols redemption, I think you'd really enjoy covering this
Yes, that's a very interesting topic of discussion. That will be getting covered when I get round to a Gollum redemption video. I've been covering a few characters in that way and he's on the list as well :)
Here's the second of two new (to me) ideas on the origin of orcs. Again, I’d like to know if anyone else has suggested them - and what you think.
The orcs are half-Maia, half elf - like Lúthien.
Melkor could not create utterly new beings without the Flame Eternal, but all sorts of crossbreeding is possible. We see that in Middle Earth’s many half-elf / half-man crosses and in Saruman’s half orc / half man crosses. More importantly, Luthien’s parentage tells us that the Maia can breed with mortal beings. Maybe Melkor captured some of the earliest elves and forced them to breed with Maiar in his service.
Luthien’s Maiar heritage seems to elevate her above other elves, yet the orcs are not “elevated.” But we don’t know the range of Maiar stature. Some could be very “small” and weak. And if Melkor were to choose parents from among his servants, he’d probably choose the least of them, not wanting any risk of creating rivals. And he'd hope to avoid independent thinkers, choosing the least independent of the Maiar.
Ungoliant's role also suggests that a Maiar’s descendants need not retain much of their ancestor's power. She is a Maiar and ancestor of the giant spiders. But while Ungoliant herself could challenge the might of Melkor himself, the spiders of Middle Earth can be felled by the likes of hobbits. So the great spiders inherited little of their Maiar grandmother's power, and orcs could have inherited very little of their original Maiar - or elf - ancestors' power. Or they could have lost power through generations of breeding or corruption, again like the spiders.
The same origin could explain the trolls. And perhaps Maiar could cross-breed with ... ugh ... animals. That could explain Ungoliant's descendants. And it would give Melkor a path for creation of dragons, among others: breeding Maiar with animals.
I always thought Melkor was somewhat of a tragic figure. Eru being Creator, he could not be unaware of Melkor's prospective trajectory. Yet at no point, other than the public rebuke served right after the Music was ended, did Eru try to reason with Melkor as he did with Aulë. At least that we are shown. But who knows? Perhaps there were long discussions between both of them, while Melkor roamed the Void... And Melkor having free will, chose to ignore those lessons. Still, it was as if Melkor had been created flawed, by design. The proverbial 'engine of history'?
Not created flawed, created with free will and the potential to get prideful rather the humble.
I can think of Melkor as like one of the Forgotten Realms of D&D. The Draconic Pantheon is what I mean. My thoughts on that is Eru Ilúvatar is like Asgorath The Cration Deity/God. While the Supreme Deities/Gods are beings of the Concepts such as Death, Life, Fate, Time, Space, Order, Chaos, etc. Death for an example is Námo and Null of the Dracoic pantheon. But Melkor is of Necessary Evil. For example I think of Null as like on Lawful/Chaotic Evil and Death. Think if Eru Ilúvatar and Asgorath created three branches of their Valar and Draconic Pantheons respectively. Manwë Súlimo of the Valar being on the side of Good, Light, Order, etc. While Melkor of the Valar and Null of the Draconic Panteon being on the side of Evil, Darkness, Chaos, Etc. And the Mediators aka the ones that watch the Balance of the two other sides.
I also have a pet peeve with Eru Ilúvatar though. It is about his staunch opposition of humanity and giving humanity magic. Cause if I was on Arda and human I without magic I would have joind Melkor/Sauron immediately.
Or Ao from Faerun. As for Melkor he is for me an archetype of chaotic evil and force of destruction like Talos. Sauron is more cunning and planning like archetype of lawful evil
@@Erintii That is true
@@DARKMalice9000 also I would say Melkor's hatred is hot like Avernus, he seeks destruction for the sake of destruction whereas Sauron was cold and manipulative like Stygia for example. They were evil but differently. They are both Dark Lords but not identical.
Nom nom nom, another delicous, eh fiery, piece of lore.
Steven, how far did you advance with Nature of Middle-Earth?
Hello again. Well, I finished it and enjoyed it. One or two parts were quite tough to get through - mostly the material related to ages, dates, and time. I love dry material but that was pretty heavy going. I've incorporated a little bit into past videos but I will be aiming to quote more of it in the future. The problem has been that some of my sources can be found in NoMe but are also in old essays and material that Carl then put into that book. I have the sources written down the old way and haven't updated to say Nature of Middle-earth yet. Did you read it? If so, how did you find it?
@@TheRedBook I barely started with the section on the Elves' migration. Very interesting and time-consuming, not hard to read but sometimes hard to understand. And it's the first time I read Tolkien in English 😅 I bought most books like a decade ago as a teenager and in German, I'm from Switzerland then.
@Crafty Spirit - Yes, I think it's very well presented and none of the sections are too long. It's very digestible. There's a lot of good stuff in thee though.
Interesting, I am always interested in translations of The Lord of the Rings to see how they interpret Tolkien's style. I don't speak German but I am a speaker of Danish and Swedish. I have read The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit in Danish and it was great seeing just how it varies from the original. It seems that everyone should learn English just to experience the "way it was intended" :D
@@TheRedBook You know I've noticed that in the few passages of LotR and the Silmarillion that I saw in parallel, that some terms and sentence structure reads better in English, but others sound more epic in German; for example that sentence where Sauron is introduced as having followed his master on a ruinous path reads a bit better in German, it's a "Trümmerpfad hinab in die Leere", i.e. "path of ruin into the void", I am quoting from memory though
It seems to me that Melkor, by design of Eru, was a manifestation of Will. Melkor's discourse in essence was the creation of Free will against the will of Eru. Without Melkor would there be any rejection of the Will of Eru? Or would all within Arda be an extension of Erus will? Could this be the beauty and majesty Eru speaks of when he scolds Melkor's discourse. The very thing Melkor created within Arda was Free Will of its inhabitants. It's something I have pondered upon for a long while. Since the Ainur are in part made from the thought of Eru, Melkor is simply an extension of Erus will; and Eru willed those with life to have free agency to reject him. All the perceived weaknesses of Melkor exist within Elves and Men; Jealousy, corruption, fear, domination etc. Melkor balanced the tranquility of Arda and it's inhabitants with his strife.
That is a very intresting and good take. Melkors true ability and gift to the world could be that he was the one powerfull and knowledgeable enough to have the first disagreement with Eru. Eru gave the Ainur free independent will when he created them but Melkor had the first creative disagreement on what the beauty of the world could entail and gave the other Ainur the idea of questioning and comparing opinions instead of echoing Erus original idea. In a way he made life truly independent since he gave the free willed beings the idea of finding other inspirations than Eru, now all life wasn't simply following the suggestions of Eru anymore.
In a way he fit some eariler versions of Satan(literaly means the accuser) the Angel that acts like a prosecution attorny and questions the wisdom of god so that perspectives other than god's can be heard and deliberated on by god before he makes a decision. If Melkor had been more humble or maybe wiser maybe he could see that while he could never make a world of his own the increased beauty and majesty Eru speaks of being added to the song by the initial discord could mean that Eru alone could never make a world as majestic as one made with Melkors help. He could never be the original creator but he could be the second most important cocreator and one Eru couldn't have created this beautiful world without.
Sadly his pride got in the way of that. But Eru's values are hard to grasp, he considered giving humans and dwarves finite lives a gift. Because that scarcity of time and the value it would give every moment was something he in his infinite existence could never have so he wanted some beings to experience it so they could appreciate it.
It's like Iluvatar went oops, made that first one too strong 😬. Then he got the swing of things.
Haha, well, I hope in the future to explain just why Melkor was created so much greater than everyone else. Any excuse for Melkor content!
@@TheRedBook yeah sorta half-joking but who knows, maybe not at all. To be totally serious, I suppose it's about peoples thoughts on divine plan being flawed. Like with Greek gods, they're obviously very human and capable of human folly, whereas Christian thought is that God always has a plan and reason. My guess would be Tolkien being so Christian, he would think it was Iluvatars master plan and knew full well the result. A more interesting result for fantasy purposes is that it was an amalgamation of the two.
@@MikeTheD
I don't think that is the case much. Though I would agree on a part that he gave Melkor too much freedom and liberty in his world even if it's only temporary within the physical world unlike what the Biblical Elohim does to limit Satan's authority on earth. Such as not being capable of causing willing physical harm upon those on Earth by his own will.
I guess it all comes down to if you believe Illuvatar has truly seen the entire future, and allowed Melkor to do what he did to cause challenges to Elves and Men. Why create free will if they never have to use it to overcome and just live in pointless paradise?
@@vartanpapazian8342 yeah exactly. It's pretty serious theological questions lol, makes your head spin a little bit, especially as it pertains to Christianity.
Sauron probably was bothered that the rings he gave the Dwarves did not make them wraiths or servants such as the Nazgul. Nor could Melkor subdue their wills, although he could turn them towards evil.
So, were the Dwarves a part of the Third Music of the Ainur, perhaps retrospectively? And what of Ents or the great Eagles, or Hobbits?
6:40 Do you mean an earlier version of the legendarium? The quote seems to imply the sun existing from the start, which isn't what I've heard being the case.
No, these were later ideas from Tolkien himself. He was changing the cosmology of the world, including the Sun existing earlier and being central to it. He was also changing the idea of the flat world to round world as well. His son didn't use these versions in The Silmarillion.
@@TheRedBook Wow, huh, cool to know. Thanks.
There are supposed to be 9 perfect tones in music and one of them is discordant. I thought it would relate to the number of Valar but that would make 16 pairs, not 14. Maybe the final pair is Eru.
I never thought to include actual music in the discussion but that's a cool idea. I am a musician myself and I think that could be good to explore. I've always just associated the numbers with Tolkien's religion and "numerology". 7 appears so often in Christianity and it does in the Legendarium as well. I would like to cover it in a video.
@@TheRedBook The ancients could only see 5 planets. Combined with the sun and moon they made up 7. There are also 7 colours of light when broken up through a prism and 7 chakras. I know numbers are associated with letters and the sections of the bible as well. I wonder if he used these base mathematical rules from these sources to form the structure. I don't know enough about music or Tolkien's knowledge of it to say.
@@TheRedBook Was the Second Viennese School the model for Melkor's contribution to the Music of the Ainur?
My theory is that Melkor did not not have free will - nor any of the Ainur. His initial desire to corrupt was a craving for free will and later self pity that Iluvatar’s children had something he could never attain.
Morgoth and later Sauron are not villains in the traditional sense, they are there precisely to create conflict and “shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined”. Everything that played out in later ages are peoples of free will evolving into something more wonderful because of choices made during conflict - something I believe sits at the heart of all tolkiens work.
Can that be a theory though if Tolkien says they do have free will? To say the Ainur have no free will means no creature made by Eru has free will and it goes agains the idea behind the Secret Fire in the first place.
I haven’t read Tolkien saying that, could you help reference please? My understanding is Ainur have “tasks” and clearly make choices in line with those tasks. My reading is that this isn’t free will but Iluvatar’s intent - imprinted during the Great Song. If the secret fire is the source of creation, I can still see elves, men & dwarves later having free will, but the Valar and Maiar being extensions of Iluvatar’s will.
@@dixieflatline1189 Of course, it's in The Silmarillion - Ainulindale
"And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will."
They are kindled with the same individuality that Elves and Men are kindled with - the Flame Imperishable. They are just greater spirits.
The Ainulindalë is literally the symbolic story for all stories to come afterwards, they always come in three stages: the first the ideal world or an untested character, then second the adventure, chaos and violence (discord) which the characters encounter, and then the third stage being the resolution and how the resolution, even if the characters have a good or bad ending, yields a greater good.
So Melkor was deliberately created by Eru to be that one being who would fall into absolute darkness and attempt to ruin everything. It was Melkor's attempts to ruin everything that brought new things -- good and bad -- to the original, harmonious version of Arda. Also, since the Children of Illuvatar are prone to good or evil or both, Melkor's discord was necessary to ensure that good and bad existed in the material world.
Every failure of Melkor brings out the good in those Ainur, Elves and Men who are true, honest and virtuous- by overcoming the evil which Melkor brought the world. Melkor is literally necessary evil and no wonder he became nihilistic!
I think the difference is free will, Wru didn't create Melkor to fall, it was Melkor who was too blinded by his pride to accept his limitations. And freely act upon those emotions.
I believe that Melkor guessed that Eru placed the sacred fire at the heart of the earth. And this is what the nameless things encountered by Gandalf are doing. They were created by Melkor to Gnaw the earth until they find the sacred fire. It would make sense seeing as Gandalf said "even Sauron knows them not for they are older than he". Sauron existing before time means they could only be older in the sense that they were in the physical world before Sauron descended into Arda. We know Melkor had been corrupting creatures and other life for quite some time before Sauron left Aule to openly join with him. It would makse sense that Sauron wouldn't be aware of every single one of them.
If you haven't watched it yet, I recommend my Nameless Things video. You may enjoy it! Fun theory there Stuart :)
@@TheRedBook I watched that one a couple of days ago and very much enjoyed it! Your videos are brilliantly done 😁
So if all of the ainur rejoice at the children…. Save 1. But others had already attuned to Melkor, the balrogs for example. And I seem to recall readings that it was during the music where their corruption happpened. Seems a bit inconsistent, not a criticism. The Ainulindalë has the earmarks of what I consider to be the same inconsistencies as the story of the Garden.
I wish Melkor had found the secret of the fire.
But the discord of Melkor was an important part of the creation of Arda. Because the Valar where of Iluvatar all of their creation was in his image. Even the turmoil of Melkor's music was of Ilu will- like when a snow storm freezes mountain tops only to bring life to the valleys below in spring or how the churning fires of the earth create new islands for life to grow. I think it's important to remember that Melkor (and all that he represents) is in deed part of the world itself and despite having many negative aspects, also has positive ones even Melkor could not precieve.
Of course but I don't remember saying otherwise? Is this a response to something in particular I said??
@@TheRedBook No, not at all. I just wanted to put more emphasis on the fact that try as he might to go against Iluvatar, Melkor's discord was a contributing factor to the beauty of Arda- for without darkness/turmoil/struggle/even violence & evil, the world would not be so special.
@@nfragala cannot have the peaks without the valley's.
Holy Crap you did this! I bet Men of The West loved it!
Oh? Did Men of the West cover this topic or something?
@@TheRedBook No, IDK, I just thought they'd like it, sry. Just a big silly Tolkien fan here! XD
@@penelopegreene - No need to be sorry, was just confused for a second :D . I don't know if MotW watches my videos, I know a few of the other channels do though and they usually comment :)
@@TheRedBook Well, at least Nerd Cookies should! XD
Oh I've not heard of them. Tolkien channel or covering a lot of topics?
I know questioning the mind of Iluvitar is akin to questioning the mind of the Abrahamic god, or Odin, or Zeus or whichever deity someone chooses to worship… but I can’t help but wonder if Iluvitar felt a sense of guilt for Melkor’s corruption. After all, the Ainur were all essentially aspects of Eru Iluvitar’s own psyche. So when the other Ainur rise against Morgoth, is this symbolic of an internal struggle in Iluvitar’s mind?
I've thought about the idea of Melkor being a symbol/device of an internal struggle as well, my personal theory is that Iluvatars powers and supreme status are less about him being truly omnipotent and omniscient (though of course he's still powerful and wise beyond anyone else's comprehension) and more about being all-encompassing. Evil and desire for power contribute to and can be nurtured by all other things, which is why Melkor uniquely has access to all other powers of the Ainur, and even Iluvatar can't change the fact that evil can and will exist so long as there are beings with free will.
His mind is too all-encompassing to create a universe devoid of evil, so he creates the children of Iluvatar, accepting they will live in a marrad world, where they will have to face all of the evil inherent to unlimited free will and experience the suffering it entails and in the end use their free will to reject evil, so when the time for the second music of the Ainur comes he will only teach them the power of creation and lets them imprint their minds, now free of evil, onto the world instead of his own. Melkor plays a big part in that, all the suffering he causes shows the children of Iluvatar what is good and evil, what to reject and why it must be rejected.
At least to me, if we accept the idea Iluvatars mind has this shortcoming of necessarily being all-encompassing which makes it impossible for him to create a perfect world for his children to live in directly, the purpose of Arda becomes much more understandable.
What if Melkor was doing the will of Iluvatar? In secret from the rest of the Valar. The struggle of Light and darkness is life.
If this is true, then I am sincerely sorry for Melkor. Because of his love for his father, he became an outcast.
I know in the Abram religions god just was but I would like to hear of where Eru came from. Maybe he just was. I thought it would make a good topic.
Eru Iluvatar is quite similar to the Biblical Elohim Yahuah.
Though there maybe a few differences their natures, personalities, and how they see what creation should be like is quite similar.
With some of the largest exceptions being on the factor of death for Man, of the latter which Yahuah made in his image and he has a great absolute burning hatred for abominable evil that seek to corrupt his creations such as what occurs within the book of Enoch and Jubilees.
👌
😎
👍👏
👍👍
Melkor tried to steal for himself what was given freely by Eru to all of creation. But one cannot steal what is a gift.
Finally, I found the comment that said what I wasn't able to put into words. That's probably why he was punished for his choice and others pardoned, spared or redeemed... Melkor already had a share of everyone's gifts and wanted a gift everyone was suppose to share for himself.
Humans and Elves can attain to any gift by our will but we don't start out that way but our lives and wills are limited. That's probably why we empathize with him but we also feel really bad for him.
And that just makes him want to destroy and corrupt Elves and Men more. Melkor doesn't mind if you give up or play along with him but you can't be like him, worse than him and do whatever you want...
Probably that's why God smiled. Eru was like... Well Melkor if you want kids so bad... Here you go, they are just like you. I don't think things are so bad with Melkor, his fate is undecided. It's worse for Sauron, Saruman, Feanor and the Numenoreans. We should probably be more concerned for our individual choices. Than thinking too much about his.
Suggestion to another video: the relation between astral projection and time travel in Tolkien's writings.
It's certainly an idea I've never thought about making into a video. I'll have to think on that for sure because it would be interesting!
@@TheRedBook a quote from the Akallabêth: "For the Dúnedain held that even mortal men, if so blessed, might look upon other times than those of their bodies' life (...)". It's like a mind time travel power. Think about Leto II Atreides in God Emperor of Dune when he made his journeys to other planets and ages with his memories. Tolkien embedded time travel in The Lord of the Rings too (see Lothlorien). You will find Tolkien's writings by two unfinished time-travel novels: The Lost Road and The Notion Club Papers. Both texts make use of variants of the character Ælfwine to provide a frame story for the time travel.
Great video, forgive my ignorance though but are Dragons not a race wholly original from Melkor’s mind? Or are they analog mockery of something else? They’re clearly above Eagles in intelligence and abilities, so they don’t seem to be a diminished form of them. Likewise they exist and procreate long after Melkor was removed from the world, and give no heed to Sauron or other lieutenants of Melkor.
The origins of dragons is quite a mystery. Personally, I like the idea that Melkor experimented with small reptils and endowed them with a spirit, akin to Werewolves. Not much clue though on the origin of said spirits. Or maybe they are just dwarves transformed since Tolkien knew Germanic myths well :D
@@Crafty_Spirit I think it’s the biggest mystery in all of Tolkien’s work honestly. They’re so high above every other living creature, including Men and Elves, and there’s no real contradiction that they’re above even Maiar like Balrogs and Sauron. They have psychic ability, can brainwash with a gaze, are supremely intelligent, have advanced language and reasoning, and are all powerful. I remember the first time reading Silmarillion thinking wow, Melkor just proved Eru wrong. Since dragons carry the natural malice of Melkor, it’s hard to deny they’re an original race of his creation, similar to dwarves and their natural love of Aule’s crafting. It’s telling to me also that Tolkien says irredeemable is too far when describing orcs, but dragons he depicts as evil wholly. Typically when something is twisted into an evil form it seems to diminish in its ability, orcs are inferior to elves etc. So how dragons could be twisted from anything already existing in the animal kingdom seems unlikely to me personally.
Learning on this channel that Melkor’s essence in middle-earth is most concentrated in gold blew my mind.
@@vartanpapazian8342 Gold - Michael Martínez published this idea that Dragons actually need Gold to survive longtime, it could be their resource to fuel up on Melkor's malice else it dilutes with time...
@@Crafty_Spirit Either way it’s an awesome link, the only way they can feel close to him after he was ripped from the world.
The result of my last poll had "What are Dragons?" fairly low down on the list. I will make a video about them though. I disagree about the comment in regards to the Eagles. I think the Dragons have cunning, malice, and a corrupt sort of intelligence...not necessarily MORE intelligent than Eagles, if that makes sense? I do have my theories about Dragons, with close links to the will of Melkor himself. As Crafty Spirit, they are very mysterious. The "empowered beasts" theory is probably a strong contender but ...I will make a video on them in the future.
How was morgoth able to create the orcs? I know its fantasy but wouldnt 2 corrupted elves still make elf babies because of genetics? Has this been explained any further by tolkien?
It's a surprisingly complex question which is still unanswered. As I said in my "How long do Orcs live?" video, Tolkien didn't settle on an explanation but many people accept what his son included in The Silmarillion. Tolkien says the Orcs are a corrupted form of "rational incarnate life" meaning Melkor wouldn't have created them but would have 'made' them from what already existed. I'll be doing an Orc video about it in the future with some theories and what Tolkien said.
@@TheRedBook ah so basicslly he was able to create other lifeforms out of allready existing ones
Yes, well Tolkien would say "make" instead of "create" but you are right . Melkor would twist existing lifeforms into abominations , not being able to fully create from his own mind as Eru could. Tolkien calls these mockeries or counterfeits.
@@TheRedBook On the subject of creation, are the Ents similar to the dwarves as being "adopted Children to Ilúvatar", since they share the features of self-awareness and independent cognitive thought and freedom of action that was reserved solely for the creations of Eru (unlike the plants and lower animals that the Valar could create)? The Great Eagles also fit into the category of beings that would be in the creation purview of Ilúvatar instead of the Valar. Or are one or both embodied lesser Maiar spirits?
@@tominiowa2513 intresting question. I think ents are the creation of eru. But better leave the answering for the expers
In my opinion the Secret Fire is and is not Eru himself. Eru is the center of the world of Arda. The Secret Fire has in my opinion a similar nature with the Holy Spirit.
So if only Eru can create life how come many other valars creat animals dwarfs ents. Everyone but melkor..except dragons
It depends on the nature of creation. Aule made Dwarves but they were soulless and only obeyed him. It was Eru who gave them souls and independence. Creatures like the Eagles, Ents, etc, seem to be spirits taking shape, or consequences of the Music of the Ainur and the pure creative thought of the Ainur being manifested. Yavanna wished for protectors of the Trees and her desires were shown in the creation of Ents. She didn't hide away and shape them herself and attempt to create independent life. Big difference there.