“Stop the takeoff”. Departure after collision | ITA Airways 611 Airbus A332 | New York, Real ATC
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- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2024
- THIS VIDEO IS A RECONSTRUCTION OF THE FOLLOWING SITUATION IN FLIGHT:
17-JUN-2022. An Air France Boeing 777-200 (B772), registration F-GSPQ, performing flight AFR008/AF8 from Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport (France) to New York John F. Kennedy International Airport, NY (USA) being at the gate called Ground controller and reported that they have been hit by ITA Airways Airbus A330-200 (A332), registration EI-EJL, performing flight ITY611 /AZ611 from New York John F. Kennedy International Airport, NY (USA) to Rome Fiumicino International Airport (Italia). They wanted the controller to cancel takeoff of ITA Airways 611. As a result, ITA Airways 611 departed and continued the flight to Rome.
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PART OF TEXT VERSION OF COMMUNICATIONS THAT I'M ABLE TO INCLUDE HERE. Do you want more? Write in comments and I'll give you remaining part of text communications (Read if subtitles in video were fast):
COMMENTS: Air France 008 just arrived from Paris. ITA Airways 611 after push back called Ground controller.
ITY611: Ground, good evening, Itarrow 611 Heavy…
GROUND: Itarrow 611 Heavy, RW 31L, taxi left B, hold short G.
ITY611: Left B, hold short G, Itarrow 611 Heavy.
COMMENTS: As it was reported ITA Airways 611 struck Air France 008 during taxi and continued. Continue watching.
COMMENTS: About 27 minutes later Air France 008 called Ground controller.
AFR008: Ground, from Air France 008.
AFR008: Air France 008, is calling Ground.
GROUND: Say again.
AFR008: Ground, from Air France 008, please, answer.
GROUND: Hello, good evening, how can I help you? This is your first time calling me?
AFR008: Yes, it is Air France 008. We are on stand 9. And there is an Alitalia passing behind us that hit our aircraft. …not to takeoff.
GROUND: Can you say this again, please? You’re saying that Alitalia aircraft hit you? Where are you?
AFR008: … Alitalia about to take-off. … to cancel take-off.
GROUND: Okay, where are you?
AFR008: Did you copy for the Alitalia? I don’t know which Alitalia.
GROUND: Okay, where are you, Alitalia?
AFR008: This is Air France 008, we got a damage from the Alitalia passing behind, on stand 9. I‘m not aware if the pilot aware of the damaged aircraft.
GROUND: Are you sure it was Alitalia?
AFR008: Yes, the ground staff told me it was Alitalia.
GROUND: Air France, where are you?
AFR008: We are at the gate number 9, gate number 9.
AFR008: Gate number 9.
JBU2864: JetBlue 2864, approaching G, for gate 1.
262N: … good evening, 262N.
GROUND: Please stop calling me. I’m gonna talk to Air France now.
GROUND: Air France 008, I would like you to call the Tower, please.
GROUND: You are on Ground, please, check your frequency.
AFR008: Yes, Air France 008, at the Ground and for you to stop the takeoff of Alitalia, because he has damaged aircraft.
GROUND: Air France 008, please call… Are you ready to copy a phone number?
AFR008: Air France 008, please.
GROUND: Area code…
COMMENTS: Ground controller gave them the phone number.
AFR008: Okay, thank you.
COMMENTS: At that moment ITA Airways 611 was at holding point RW 31L.
------ This is maximum I can write here. Do you want more? Write in comments and I'll give you remaining part of text communications ------
THE VALUE OF THIS VIDEO:
THE MAIN VALUE IS EDUCATION. This reconstruction will be useful for actual or future air traffic controllers and pilots, people who plan to connect life with aviation, who like aviation. With help of this video reconstruction you’ll learn how to use radiotelephony rules, Aviation English language and general English language (for people whose native language is not English) in situation in flight, which was shown. THE MAIN REASON I DO THIS IS TO HELP PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND EVERY EMERGENCY SITUATION, EVERY WORD AND EVERY MOVE OF AIRCRAFT.
SOURCES OF MATERIAL, LICENSES AND PERMISSIONS:
Source of communications - www.liveatc.net/ (I have a permission (Letter) for commercial use of radio communications from LiveATC.net).
Map, aerial pictures (License (ODbL) ©OpenStreetMap -www.openstreet...) Permission for commercial use, royalty-free use.
Radar screen (In new versions of videos) - Made by author.
Text version of communication - Made by Author.
Video editing - Made by author.
HOW I DO VIDEOS:
1) I monitor media, airspace, looking for any non-standard, emergency and interesting situation.
2) I find communications of ATC unit for the period of time I need.
3) I take only phrases between air traffic controller and selected flight.
4) I find a flight path of selected aircraft.
5) I make an animation (early couple of videos don’t have animation) of flight path and aircraft, where the aircraft goes on his route.
6) When I edit video I put phrases of communications to specific points in video (in tandem with animation).
7) Together with my comments (voice and text) I edit and make a reconstruction of emergency, non-standard and interesting situation in flight.
Air France acted extremely professional despite the lackluster response from the ground controller. I hope AF filed a report on the controller.
Lackluster is being polite. The guy was completely asleep at the switch.
Yes, they did, but their English and communication skills were very poor, making things harder for ATC tu understand
@@Thecloudsshepherd I am not an English native and yet I could understand all the important bit quite clearly. This failure goes after the ground controller who almost sounded annoyed that people want to talk to him.
@@DavidRelich good point.
He was busy eating his hoagie.
Unbelievable to me that a controller received a report from an aircraft about potential damage to an aircraft about to takeoff and did not IMMEDIATELY take steps to at least inform the other flight crew about the report prior to them taking off.
At 0:40 it seems that the AF crew was notified 27 minutes after the crash happened. What I really don't understand is why the ground staff that saw it and notified later to the AF crew, did not notifiy it to ground or tower...
Yes.
@@morpheus117 Indeed. There should be definetely an investigation.
💯 That’s a huge risk (and we are talking about lives (onboard that flight)) to take to proceed to take off and fly when the plane may have been damaged.
@@TeamTLJ Yes.
Legend has it that the JFK ground controller is still asking Air France "where are you" to this very day.
nobody uses the term "stand" in north america, or the americas
@@brianlacroix822 We sure use the number 9
@@brianlacroix822 Not smart. This is an International Airport, correct?
What's the difference "stand at 9" and "shit Gate 9" ?
I can't believe what I just heard. There NEEDS be a review of this incident asap.
Yes.
Legend has it Air France 008 is still calling JFK Ground.
Air France Pilot was so professional.
👍
Except, they really need to learn to speak better English. I think the message here was clear enough that the controller should have gotten it, but the language barrier clearly contributed.
@@torben777 The AF Pilot spoke good enough English to understand what was being said. As a Brit I can tell you first hand that he probably speaks really good English, it's just French people always have a strong accent and can sometimes be a little bit hard to understand no matter what they do, it's not their fault. Partner that with talking on a radio instead of in person and it would make sense why a French pilot at JFK might struggle to be heard properly. But in this guy's case, he spoke clearly enough for the point to be understood.
@@cheman579 I think you misunderstand my comment. It was not the AF pilots that could not understand the controller. It was the controller who potentially had a harder time understanding the AF pilots due to the heavy french accent that you yourself mention.
@@torben777 Why didn't he understand the ATC English ?
Wasn't he a Air Traffic Controller on International Airport ?
He should talk and hear the ATC English, NOT the Native English.
Other than a language issue it appears the Air France pilot acted correctly and the ground controller either dismissed him or did not understand him. Could have been a dangerous situation for the passengers on the Aliitalia.
If the controller cannot read him, he should ask for a repeat. Do like they have read but not react is the controllers fault.
@@RubenKelevra He did ask them to repeat it, which he did, but the atc was so slow on getting info to the other flight. sad
Sounds like there was a party going on in ground, judging by all the background noise
THERE WAS NO LANGUAGE PROBLEM...just an ignorance problem by the ground controller.
Air France where are you? At Gate 9! Air France where are you? Holy shit, what an unprofessional controller.
I lost my patience listening to that and this was just a recording, bravo to the pilot for keeping his cool. Ground was completely oblivious.
GATE NINE. GATE NUMBER NINE. GATE NUMBER NINE.
In defense of the controller, the AF pilot said "stand 9" several times instead of "gate 9". Also, a couple of his transmissions were stepped-on. Remember - the receiver which is the source of our audio here is not the same one the controller was hearing. It is possible that some of the simultaneous transmissions where we can still hear Air France were actually inaudible to the controller.
Stand 9 is standard phraseology across the world.
Yet another demonstration of fundamentally poor controlling at Kennedy.
To the point of arrogance I’d say…
Wow. The lack of urgency / comprehension / communication on the part of the ground controller could have been disastrous.
How could the passengers on the other plane not be losing their minds that the plane was not stopping and returning to the gate? If I saw the wing of the plane I am sitting on clip something and we continued to taxi to the active there is no way I would remain seated. I would do anything and everything to make sure the plane returned to the gate even if it meant arrest.
litterally just punch another passenger .. and they will return to the gate, then explain why you did it.. to the other guy you punched, and you will most likely get away with it,.
@@BlueberryWizard Lol well that's one way to escalate things
@@toddsimone7182 you gotta do what you gotta do lol.
That was embarrassing for the AT Controller. First of all he said it was the first time calling and it clearly wasn't. Secondly he wasted time not paying attention to the Air France pilot. As soon as the call came in, even if he was just receiving info he should have stopped the ITA flight to have it checked. He could have then got all the other info he needed. The Air France pilot made it clear where he was and being the ground controller he should have known where he was.
Absolutely shocking. Don't the ground controllers have a local comm loop that can push a button and go HEY TOWER STOP THE ALITALIA? Stop everything first - ask questions later, right? Boom, done, problem solved. The ground controller really really screwed the pooch here.
🇬🇧🙋🏾♀️This 🙌🏾 Even though he had an accent there was nothing wrong with his English! Perhaps ATC was not primarily focused on this situation 🙄
He meant first time calling bc he hadn't called since they last landed so was probably trying to make sure it wasn't an active plane making a call. That's why the French pilot said yes when he asked that. Still embarrassing though, hope he's seen this and been talked to and that he's doing a better job lmaoo
I was waiting for the ground controller to say “it’s not my job.”
Also, how rude is this ground controller from NYC... what a grumpy guy... "Please stop calling me.. I'm "gonna" talk to ...." and "Call this number"... it is so hard for him the ground controller to take care of this? YIKES!
Have you been to NYC ? Everyone is like that.
Sounds like it was the ramp controller, not the ground controller. The ramp controller typically has much more going on with a much more intricate responsibility and likely not as much time to deal with this himself, which may be why he passed it along. Still could’ve been more polite about it, though
@@johnnyfive1412 saying EVERYONE is a big no-no... too broad and certainly not true. Lots of friendly and professional folks in NYC.. even in the airport towers...
@@pesto12601 -- Did I strike a nerve?
Take some time and listen to any of the KJFK liveatc feeds..
Ground be like: "Why use radios if I can just give Air France an US number for him to call international to Tower"
Even better, he could have asked them to write a report and he would have a look at it.
This makes me really angry the Ground controller was absolutely completely useless. Totally incompetent. Potentially life threatening and disasterous outcome.
Yes.
I know , right!?
The ground controller is beyond stupid. Needs to be benched. 🤦🏻♂️
Sorry, I disagree. I believe that this was an English language issue for that AF pilot. His English skills were rudimentary at best, and far below those of most European pilots, including AF pilots. I speak as someone who (a) is a native English speaker, (b) lived in a Francophone country and was not fluent but very proficient in French, and (c) flies with AF not infrequently. It’s not the responsibility of a JFK ATC controller to understand French - it was the responsibility of the AF pilot to be understandable by the controller.
We have the benefit of subtitles here and presumably not being in a loud environment, so have a much better chance of comprehending the AF pilot than he did.
@@gregheyheyhey the pilot was speaking English, with an accent yes but it was both correct and understandable. It's the controller's job to understand the different accents of all around the world he has to work with, and generally speaking he understood the plane was hit etc just seemed like he couldn't get arsed with it. And if he didn't, in doubt safety first, stop departures until it's sorted out if an aircraft tells you to stop departures...
@@gregheyheyhey You clearly didn't speak to any French people in France then, or you didn't live in France since you said Francophone and French accents outside France are different to ones in France. As a Brit (we border France by water and I know a lot of French people) I can tell you it wasn't a language issue, it was a mix of French people having strong accents when speaking English (which isn't their fault and doesn't reflect English skill) and the fact that he spoke over a radio. Baring this in mind, I still understood everything he said. You're being a dick, the AF pilot didn't speak French he spoke English so you saying "not the responsibility of a JFK ATC controller to understand French" is just you being a nobhead cos he wasn't speaking French.
Thank you very much for picking this incident up!
Thank you for watching.
At 1:02 it sounds like the ground controller is at a party or radioing in from a sports bar. wtf.
Wow very alarming by almost all parties involved 1. Ground Controller didnt call the tower and relied on air france with broken english. Also ground acted like it wasnt a big deal. 2. Air France did not have great english, but they were persistent. 3. Tower didnt inform the crew until airborne. 4. New york departure asked the question “did you sustain damage?” but was not persistent. 5. Crew on Alitalia dismissed the issue without question. Can you imagine if they had a fuel leak over the middle of the pond? No I’m not an expert, but this does not sit right.
Air France's English was not "broken."
@@gomerromer7708 yeah I tink that's called an accent
familiar with the Swiss chese model ? .. this is a prime example mate.
Why is everyone calling their English broken as if they'd be allowed to fly into JFK not knowing English. Dude just has an accent
The AF pilot spoke good English, French people just have very strong accents. So many people in these comments are saying the same thing and have clearly never met and spoken to a French person
So many holes in the cheese:
* No direct line of contact from the ramp person who saw the impact to any emergency frequency.
* AF always speaking French on frequency over France. So they end up having quite low English skills for any non standard phraseology like here.
* Ground not immediately calling tower.
ITA deciding to continue after report of potential damage to the aircraft.
* Ground being too busy in general
Saved by the engineering and toughness of the airframe I guess.
That's a very good sum-up!
AF's English was quite adequate but not for the idiot that was handling Ground...
@F. A. True. Air France had actually given his location a few times, but apparently ground controller didn't note it.
I'm sorry but the Air France crew had perfectly good english to communicate what happened to them, that was not the issue.
Yes, exactly. The last slice of cheese finally holded the line. But I definetely don´t wanted to be a passenger on board of this ITA A 330 at this flight. Luckily they didn´t ended up in the Atlantic Ocean.
Good lord the ground staff who didn’t tell the tower immediately and the controller need to be suspended pending a investigation… So much wrong here.
Ground controller quite clearly went into 'panic mode' and their default response was to repeatedly ask the same few idiotic questions. And once they figured out hey, maybe something needs done about this, then rather than calling tower themselves, pass the problem back to Air France. The ground controller gets a 0 from me.
I disagree. It is much better to let the actual witness talk to the tower rather than try to play middle-man. It would be different if the Air France crew knew exactly which aircraft hit them or if the ground controller could figure it out, but it seems that he didn't show any Alitalia aircraft near the Air France plane so he wanted Air France to talk directly with the tower in case it was one of the aircraft which was in the process of taking off.
@@sbreheny Not when timing is critical, like in this instance. That plane got of the ground with damage.
Was the ground controller asleep... surely on a precautionary principle it would ring alarm bells and he'd at least pass a message on to Tower and then get more info? Anyway, I'm just a dude sat in an armchair!
Armchair away on this one, as a pilot that controller was not paying attention to what Air France was saying. Who cares where he was? Like 5 times checking his gate? Making him switch tower, what? Just relay the information.
All that back ground noise from the ground controller sounds like he was either at a bar or a party
I am absolutely livid. Enraged. Infuriated. I’m so incensed that I got out the thesaurus.
For some reason I thought you were making a joke and thesaurus was a type of dinosaur, then I realised, because I live in England, that thesaurus is the name of the book not a dinosaur that has a similar name
What a cluster! It illustrates beautifully how easy it is to get comm's all messed up and how human error can cause catastrophes. Thank God nothing serious happened here, but it seems like the confusion of what airline hit him, the useless ground controller, the language issues, etc. all could have conspired to cause a disaster. I hope that there are consequences for all parties that did not do the right thing here.
I hope that there will be at least an investigation.
I don't see how the controller was useless.
I doubt tower can be blamed for a call coming 27 minutes after the collision, them giving him an airline that doesn't even exist anymore to look for, the AF pilot speaking with very poor English. The controller clearly did in fact react quickly by first calling any "Alitalia" on the frequency, we don't know if he also told other controllers to look for an "Alitalia" to stop, and then he gave the AF call priority and gave them a phone number through which they can get to the bottom of what exactly happened.
Language issues? He was speaking English. The Americans should learn to speak it too. *I* have trouble understanding US comms at times, especially NY and English is my first language.
@@pistonburner6448 the plane still had an Alitalia livery. Maybe a little confusing for the ground staff...
Ground controller: "Are you even at the airport? Quit pulling my leg. oh, they are about to take off? It's lunch time buddy, brb."
I think ground controller was asleep... AF008 called ground controller several times but he didn't respond...
To me it sounded like a party or TV show in the background on the first radio response …
@@rorymeyer Yes.
Yeah at 1:02 that immediately stood out. And then said “this is your first time calling me” just to add insult. Really hope there was an investigation on this. I wonder what impression the other pilots on frequency had on this, though wisely they didn’t try and cut in themselves.
Ok, but if ground crew *saw* the Airitalia hit Air France during the taxi, why didn’t they stop the taxi then and there? Was there damage to the 777? I can’t imagine how the Air France pilot would have felt if the A330 had gone down.
The didn’t notice it immediately. They were warned by ground crew and then had to relay the information. If my memory serves.
Frustratingly enough, this matches my experience: I often got the feeling that if (american) english isn't your first language and you speak english with any kind of accent, a lot of people refuse to understand you out of sheer principle... :/
No that's not it. What the real problem is, is that people in New York CAN'T speak English.
The pilot had an extremely thick accent and was not speaking clearly. I took 3 years of French and had a hard time understanding half of what he said.
@@cruisinguy6024 Ive taken 0 French and fully without a doubt understood everything he was saying.. the controller needs to stop being destracted by the people in the background at the tower
@@st8ks967 you’re being disingenuous. Rewatch without reading the subtitles. There’s absolutely unintelligible moments in his radio traffic.
@@cruisinguy6024 @Cruisin Guy just rewatched the video and i stand by my statement. he called 3 different times all clear and fully understandable. after an answer you hear people basically screaming in the background. After he pilot described the problem quite clear (maybe some words are broken). and you can def make out "stand 9" "Aircraft hit us" "cancel the takeoff" second time he was asked the controller stepped on him for most of the transmission. the third time the pilot was clear enough for any reasonable pilot to put context clues on "damage to aircraft" "stand 9" "cancel takeoff", a controller MUST be able to bring those words together. I agree some words might have been unreadable but in my opinion those were "filler" words anyway and had no affect in getting the point across. That controller failed to act in a timely manner that could have had a big impact on both parties. Also i would not say the word "disingenuous" is used in the correct context here.
This ground controller MUST be dismissed immediately. His situational awareness is non-existent.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH yea right iam sure the FAA will get right on that one HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The incompetence is just staggering..
Ground controller was an ass, I think the Air France pilot woke him up.
From the first call at 1:02, it almost sounds like they were having a party and were rudely interrupted by some plane trying to talk to them about some boring airplane crap or something. "Wooooo!"
@@jonathankleinow2073 I mean that's kind of a common thing. Other controllers talking or having fun in the background.
@@jameshee-jaehan7399 The ATC at Tenerife had a soccer match on the radio in the background.
@@jonathankleinow2073 Yes. It sounded strange.
I was expecting the Ground controller to start saying, "You talking to me? You talking to me?"
Ground controller sounds pretty dense.
Was the ground controller going out for a smoke break and didn't much care?
Sounds like it was the ramp controller, not the ground controller. The ramp controller typically has much more going on with a much more intricate responsibility and likely not as much time to deal with this himself, which may be why he passed it along. Still could’ve been more polite about it, though
Why couldn't the ground controller pass the message over to tower himself?
I don't know. Probably the controller didn't get what they wanted.
At first I was confused by that but it appears that it was a request for AirFrance 008 to call (telephone) the tower to give them more details. Perhaps ATC needed more clarification about the situation. It keeps the frequency less congested.
Sounds like it was the ramp controller, not the ground controller. The ramp controller typically has much more going on with a much more intricate responsibility and likely not as much time to deal with this himself, which may be why he passed it along. Still could’ve been more polite about it, though
He was probably totally confused because:
-Air France 008 has landed quite a long time ago, so he had no flight strip anymore and didn't know who the hell he is speaking to.
-The Air france pilot keept saying 'Alitalia' out of habit. For the most time of his pilot career the large italian airlines was called alitalia.
But after Alitalia went bankrupt the new airlines that was created out of it is called ITA Airways not Alitalia anymore.
So the ground controller might have searched for an alitalia jet on his ground radar or flightstrips and found none, since he probaly forgot Alitalia is now ITA.
And he probaly didnt look out of the window if EI-ElJ still has the old Alitalia paintjob.
Alitalia ICAO code on radar and on the Flightstrip: AZA
Callsign: Alitalia
ITA Airways ICAO code on radar and on the flightstrip: ITY
Callsign: Itarrow
I think thats the main reason for the total confusion. The ground controller could have passed the info within seconds to the tower controller, since they sit litteraly next to each other in the same room within the tower.
I guess that's what created such confusion, a mysterious Air france talking about a seemingly non existent Alitalia Jet.
@@ax.f-1256 Thank you very much, that is indeed plausible. And adding to this: The Air France Pilot obviously had difficulties to remember what the English word is which explains the number nine - he repeatedly called it "stand" from "standing" = "we´re standing at number nine" - and with his French accent it sounded like "stonde" - and the ATC, maybe from downtown Brooklyn, had difficulties to understand what a "stonde" should be - and therefore inquired and inquired and inquired until the Air France Pilot finally got the right English term: "gate nine".
But I´m not sure if the ATC really doesn´t understood what the French Pilot tried to say or if he played the game: I will not understand you until you speak Standard American English.
The plane continued to ROME?? After hearing they hit someone? how can the pilots be 100% sure they had no damage... and that awful response from the ground controller. Poor efforts from KENNEDY AND aLITALIA.
Is this considered a hit and run ? Or a hit and fly?
Although I feel that the Ground Controller was very unprofessional, once Tower heard of the potential issue, he should have told the Alitalia flight to land immediately and NOT pass him on to Radar/Approach.
If it’s on the ground for 46 hours, it definitely sustained damage.
Not necessarily. They may just have to disassemble large portions of the aircraft to make sure that there's no damage, as the regulations requires. May be just some scratches on the paint visible etc.
@@RubenKelevra Are you serious? planes NEVER get grounded for paint scratches. That plane was surely damaged and NYC ground & air control are unfit for their jobs. ITA flight should have never been allowed to get airborne before a specialized check - pilots are not qualified for that
@@sfrenato you cannot determine the level of damage below the paint scratches without doing a check. So if the impact force is not known you need to analyse that.
@@RubenKelevra so you are not talking only about paint scratches
@@sfrenato I think you just have a hard time understanding what I wrote. So again: If there is damage, and even just paint scratches, you need to investigate if the damage goes beyond that behind the scratched paint. This takes time.
Why was it not reported sooner, than the 27 minutes later, as stated in the clip?
Wow. That ground controller is a real piece of ....
“she’ll be right” love it
"Air France, what gate are you at?". "GC Gate 9". "Air France, where are you at?". "GC Gate 9. Stand 9". "Air France, what was your position on the field when you were hit?". "GC, Gate 9". "Air France, what gate are you at now?". "GC, Gate 9". "Air France, Where did the collision occur?". "GC, Gate 9. Stand nine. On the ground. Where we are now parked. Where we are supposed to be parked. At gate nine. That is between gates 8 and 10. Also between gates 7 and 11. Also between gates 6 and 12. In New York State. In the USA. Gate nine. November India November Echo. Nine." "Air France, I did not copy that. What gate are you at?". "Argh." "Air France, please answer in English".
The Air France Boeing is still on the ground in New York about 64 hours later.
That means the controller should have been walked out 64 hrs ago.
What was up with that ground controller? Talk about dragging your feet. He seemed more annoyed that he was being bothered with a problem than facilitating communication for a potentially life threatening situation. That could have been a disaster.
Do we know if the Alitalia plane was checked for damage once they got to their destination?
Also, the ATC was seriously inattentive.
4:10 I think if it was on the ground for 46 hours, I'd say there was probably some minor damage. Nothing public on it though I don't think
It will be interesting to see if Aviation Herald has a report on this incident.
@@dalydegagne1839 Yes, it has. According to it the Air France 777 is still stucking in JFK.
Yep was just about to come back and comment that. The Air France 777 (F-GSPQ) has been at JFK since this incident so it suggests there was a bit of damage
@@NicolaW72 Thanks - that's good to know.
The controller should consider himself lucky the ITA flight continued with no issue. If there was an issue, this controller would share part if not most of the responsibility.
AH no he would not
Sometimes you post the most professional people and then you have this controller. frustrating.
I think the air controller had just come off a snooze and was miffed that he had to go back to work.
When ground finally answered it sounded like there was a party going on in the background. 😳 Air France had his hands tied. By the end he was repeating everything he said several times - and I understood him the first time. Ground acted like they were sleeping. Then told Air France to call the tower!? Wtf YOU DO IT! In the time it took him to get already busy pilots to take down the number, he could have radio’d tower and tower would be speaking to the other plane before it took off. 🤦🏼♀️
I hope Air France reported this controller. Imagine if something had happened and the repercussions then…. awful job by the controller!
why did it take Air France 20 minutes to call in the collision?
Probably because they were unaware till the ramp crew called them about it.
I believe they did post-flight inspection and asked ground crew if there was someone behind them after they reached the gate.
Hit and Run?
You would expect that sort of thing at O’Hare.
That ground controller would make one helluva firefighter or an emergency rescue team responder.
Wonder what happened with the aircraft in the said 46 hours that it allegedly spent on the ground.
Rude and unprofessional ATC at JFK? Shocking, I tell you. Just shocking. *heavy sarcasm*
Is this classify as a hit and run?
Does the ground controller not have a phone to the Tower?
Never fly with ITA. A few years ago, I was trying to fly to Rome from Tokyo with Alitalia but the flight was delayed and we were grounded for hours because of technical issues. I had a chance to talk to the Captain when he came out of the cockpit because I was sitting in the business class and I was close to him. He told me that their computer was not working. So I asked him if it is the FMS and he said yes and he also said "Don't worry, we can still fly with another auto pilot control panel." So I asked him if it is the MCP and he said "Yes, you know airplanes well" and I was so shocked. He was trying to fly without the FMS. The plane never took off and the flight got cancelled on that day because it didn't get airspace authorizations from some countries. But this just proves the whole Alitalia has no sense of safety and the culture passes on to the ITA.
They also have the best pilots in the world so…
That wasn't very professional
A half hour after Air France has parked they call ground. That flight is so far out of ground control's memory at that point, that he has no idea who is calling him. He was probably scanning the taxiways and searching his strips looking for a non-existent Air France aircraft and was confused who was calling him. The ramp workers should have immediately told their station ops or Alitalia's station personnel and have them contact ATC or the flight directly.
That's not an excuse to react the way he did, seemingly with complete indifference of the situation once it was explained and his delay directly lead to ITA being able to takeoff before being notified which could have been fatal.
@@BChandl13 I don't think he understood what AF was trying to tell him.
@@TheTuebor No excuse. Air France was quite clear about what happened, and asking that the other aircraft not be allowed to take off, which was a reasonable request.
@@dalydegagne1839 I couldn't understand what he was saying without the captions on the video.
@@TheTuebor work on your english...
Geezus that ground controller was seriously dense.
How simple this could have been "Alitalia that just passed gate nine, this is Airfrance 008 at gate 9, we had a collision. I repeat Alitalia near gate 9, this is air France 008, we had a collision with you, please check your aircraft before departure"
ITA has to bring up some seriously good ideas to get out of the media. Another close call in such a short period of time.
Yes.
I’ve read that it was an mistake of the pullback car that left them too near the airfrance airplane while neither the airfrance and the ita plane noticed the contact
KJFK ATC doesn’t have the same fun energy it used to have since Kenny Steve retired
Dreadful ground controller lmao
Ground controller says stop calling me…WTF…the France pilot was not that difficult to understand …the controller needs to be fired
Holy heck that ground controller was terrible
That controller sucks and should be fired
AT 1:02 we can hear people partying in the background. No wonder the Ground crew was so inattentive and nonchalent.
Man this controller sucks. Retained 0 information. Was definitely having sidebar conversation.
hi yeah this is air france another plane hit us and hes about to take off the whole back of the plane is hanging off. Controller: uhm yeah uhm ok where are you? Airfrance: stop the plane from taking off there might be damage. Controller: yeah where are you? Are you hungry? How was ur day?
In my opinion the ground controller should be fired! When anyone says an aircraft might be damaged before takeoff it should be handled like a mayday call! He has the power to call the tower and stop all takeoffs till they figure this out! It worked out great! But what would the conversation be if 300 died? This is a serious lapse in safety and someone should be held accountable!
It should at least be investigated, yes. The people on board of the ITA A 330 had very good luck - but you cannot rely on that for the next time.
It’s not even calling the tower he is standing next to him. Like no more than 15 feet..
FIRE A CIVIL SERVENT HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA what planet you from
Never mind phone call. The ground controller is standing in the same tower cab as the local (Tower) controller. Spoken word mouth to ear does the trick.
The slow bureaucratic procedures, the lack of understanding a foreign accent, the complete idiocy of the controller- I may never fly again.
That controller could have cost a lot of lives! Lucky he didn’t
Yes.
Let's put the ATC aside for a second. I was wondering : the Alitalia aircraft had already taken off, but did anybody check the AirFrance aircraft (which was still at the gate and so entirely available for inspection) for any evidence of a possible collision ?
good point
They did check the AF plane. The Alitalia plane was inspected when it landed in Italy, it did have wing damage.
The AFR 777 was, eight days later, still at JFK. So yes, there was enough damage to make repairs necessary.
Failure from all parties... good thing nothing bad came out of it. The AF 772 is still under repair, the ITY A332 just returned to service yesterday.
- Air France should have pushed the matter harder. perhaps even use PAN PAN PAN to alert the controller quicker.
- the ground controller didn't bother relaying the message directly to the tower and gave AF a phone number to call (and also instead of a frequency). Also pretty rude to everyone.
- ITY crew should have returned after hearing that. How are they so sure? Did they visually checked from the window (would be hard at night)?
It's New York so......
AF did the best they could - controller was behaving like they were interrupting his smoke break. It is impossible to rule out damage to an aircraft whilst in flight (this has been shown by many many incidents in the past) normal instrumentation does not mean that there is no damage.
@@tomriley5790 Indeed.
i find it amazing how the same info is trasmitted 5 times before anyone understands, i dont feel safe flying.
Horrible ground ATC. Needs suspension and retraining. Miracle no crash. Unbelievable,
I find it tough to believe that NO ONE noticed the damage for 27 minutes. Surely someone in the 772 would have felt it, or a ramp agent would have seen+heard it. Add to that Air France's lack of capability in the English language (LH pilots always have great English, why doesn't AF train to the same standards?), I can see why the controller was frustrated.
As a side note, I often hear French ATC tapes with the locals speaking French, while in Germany it's almost always English. Guess the Germans like to play by the rules a little more than the French.
there's a very old joke about German pilot's speaking English at German airports that would possibly get me a ban
@@stevenbowers4164 I think I know the one you're referring to 😂
It's possible that the AF crew were running checklists at the time, AND the contact happened while cargo & luggage was being loaded -- which can be rather loud. After the preflight checklists were done, the co-pilot did the walk-around and noticed the damage to their tail.
By the time the IDIOT ground controller woke from his nap, it was too late -- AlItalia was already on the roll when tower was notified. IMHO, the IDIOT ground controller should be pulled from the line until he completes corrective remedial training.
I'm willing to bet that the AlItalia plane sustained damage, and its arrogant pilot/co-pilot was unaware of the damage. I was surprised on how quickly he answered Tower, "Negative!" -- instead, he should have had one of the flight crew check the left wing from inside the cabin, THEN report back.
My guess is that the AlItalia pilots were in CYA mode, so that they had "Plausible Deniability" IF there was any damage. However, I find it hard to believe that the Alitalia pilots didn't hear/feel the contact.
I'm glad this didn't end in a disaster.
@@hack1n8r for someone who seems to have missed a pretty major factor, you throw around the word "idiot" a lot.
The AF crew had arrived at their gate. They weren't departing.
@@madrockxvx Justv2 times.
Everyone giving atc the business doesn't understand that this recording isn't live, it's just the aircraft and atc's interaction, not every ground control transmission made on JOHN F KENNEDY AIRPORT. There's likely one or two DOZEN aircraft talking to ONE ground controller. Usually ground isn't going to give much priority to aircraft at a ramp making accusations, in this event specifically its probably easier and safer for the pilot to call the tower and speak to the supervisor off ground frequency
Frustrating ground controller
Everyone blaming the atc. What about the Alitalia pilot? Does he expect everyone to believe he didn’t realize he clipped that Air France jet?
The ground controller really blew this.
But even when AF called town how did ITARROW not hear this.
Having said that AF for these reasons really needs pilots that can string an emergency sentence better.
GROUND AF on GATE 9, GROUND CREW HAS REPORTED AIR ITALIA HIT US AND COULD BE DAMAGED STOP HIS TAKE OFF IMMIDATELY......
That would have gotten a response from another plane if not ground ATC
Wow 😮
What a f... is that ground controller thinking?!? And the tower ?!? Just called me by phone...
On beautiful calm sunny days somebody always pops emergency exit for no reason so you mean to tell me there was a collision and not one passenger said anything🤔😳
00:09 find the error in the description ;)
I like to know why it took AF 27min to call the ground. They have marshals at their stand and should've been informed immediately. The second thing is the stupid question of controller to ITA : Do you have a damage on your aircraft? Dude ! the guy is heavy just leaving his stand. do you think his plane was shaken by a small contact? Just cancel the damn takeoff, send fire services to catch up with him on taxi way and inspect his aircraft ! This could've ended in a disaster
That controller should be removed and retrained ASAP
This is the most incompetent, dismissive and rude ground controller I've ever heard on this videos.
Man... I'm not sure if AF hit the other plane or not... I'm lost XD
I guess there's a reason this "controller" is only allowed to park 'em when they show up. It's a good thing the damage wasn't worse because there's no way this guy could have done anything meaningful to help.
Sounded like the ground controllers were in the middle of a party when Air France first contacted them. Like they were shocked to get a call! Yikes 😊
Ground and tower dropped that ball about as bad as possible. So happy all the innocent lives on both planes plus all the souls they flew over are safe and alive.
I wouldn’t hire that ground dude to work the drive through window at McDonald’s. Wtf man?
So the airplane remained on the ground for 46hours? It was damaged then
Someone said here in the comments that it was damaged.
@@YouCanSeeATC yes it was ITA's wing
@@HoneyQuint thank you.
What an incompetent controller.
Honestly it's probable that the push back truck driver left the ITA 330 left the centerline and the 330 crew, even if aware of their vicinity to the Airfrance 777, wouldnt have had enough space to come back on the centerline, further from the triple seven. And it was a minor collision that no flight crew even realized of. The ground controller, on the other hand, was an absolute ass! If it were something more serious probably the crew would have realized the collision and, if not, a serious ground controller would have immediately passed the info to tower to stop the az crew from departing
the ground controllers on Vatsim seem more experienced than this guy, or at the very least, they would be more concerned
This is JFK ... unfortunately
Damn, the controllers here were terrible! They barely acted that and that other plane took off, thank God the damage, if there was any, was minimal and didn't affect the flight. Could have been a disaster!
The Airfrance pilot confused ITA for Alitalia which seized operations a year earlier, and the ground controller thought the Airfrance saw a ghost of the past hit them.