Sinclair ZX81 (Timex Sinclair 1000) System Review
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
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A system review of the Sinclair ZX81 (Timex Sinclair 1000 / TS1500)
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Such a beautiful and elegant designed piece of gaming history.
Love the new intro and the fantastic review.
Bravo!
I've owned three Timex/Sinclair 1000s, one was my first computer. My dad wired up a battery pack, so that when paired with a portable 12 volt TV, and a battery powered tape deck, I had computing on the go, more or less. I've never had problems with overheating, though they do get quite warm to the touch. The big problem with this machine in the States was a lack of peripherals and software. It did however teach me to program, which were I able to buy some of the great games I've recently seen for it, I may not have been motivated to do.
Oh the memories. My first computer. We sure have come a long ways and its just starting to get real exciting.
Brilliant review. Remember seeing these in my local Boots store when I was younger. Forgot just how small they were!
Well, I for one started on a ZX81 at school in 1981 and I've been comfortable with virtually any system since then. And my brother went on from these and Speccies to a PhD in software engineering! So they really did spark a talent in him - and you make a really excellent point.
I had the TS1000 version. It was one of the first computers I owned. I spent hours programming it. Loved this machine.
Wow i loved my zx81 so many old classic games, then i was lucky enough at my young age to get the 48k+. Your a true gamer when you experience these classics.
I was the proud owner of a Z81 back then... with a stunning 32K RAM extension. These were the times... For what it's worth, I am know computing on SUMMIT, the world's most powerful supercomputer at ORNL, in the US. Nonetheless, everything I did, I owe it to the ZX81. ...
this was my 1st computer when i was 6 years old i always remember getting the 16k ram pack it was £60 back in 1982,with the ram pack you could play fory niner which was amazing for its day.
We had one of these as our school computer in my primary school circa 1981 - 82. We were the first school in Northern Ireland to have a computer LOL. Just bought myself one of these on ebay and had to come and watch your review again :)
A great system for its time. I never did own a ZX81 we were to poor to buy one, but a friend had one and I enjoyed programming it. Luckily I managed to talk my dad round and he finally bought me a ZX Spectrum + which was my first Sinclair machine. The edge connector was always a flimsy affair. A nice system review. It is a shame Sinclair didn't fully test their machines before releasing them.
The keyword entry scheme was actually required to reduce the Basic to fit in the small ROM that the system had. Most micro's of the time would tokenize the program, using one byte per Basic reserved word to save space and increase the speed programs would run. Other systems would tokenize the words when a line was entered, requiring a parser to scan the line and recognize the key words before storing the line in memory. By putting one keyword per key (with shift and function to extend the effective number of keys), the tokenization was not necessary, saving space in the ROM.
One other effect of this is that lines were syntax checked as they were entered, not when the program was run. It was almost impossible to enter a syntactically incorrect line into a program (although that did not prevent logic errors!)
Very interesting system review, thanks Steve. I agree, this is one of my favourite computers from the day, beautiful to behold and it had so much character with its touch-sensitive keyboard and matching touch-sensitive 16K RAM pack! The manual for the ZX81 was probably the best written manual on any 8-bit machine - it was actually FUN to read! And the artwork on the manual cover was thrilling to look at... to me it looked like a couple of spaceships that had landed on a chip inside the computer!
My first computer as well. Bought it in 1981 and bought the 16K rampack about 3 months later. I wrote a lot of programs on that ZX81 and saved to cassette tape. I hated the rampack and the leads, which were not gold coated and the slightest pump and you'd lose everything - including any programming you had done and not saved to tape. But hey.. what a machine!
ZX-81, one of the first computers thanks to my dad, was able to play with. Great one and great memories :)
Cheers...
The Zincler zx81 was my first computer. My first programming experiences in Basic language, however, the Casio FX-502P calculator I start in the logical programming, I still keep the two as relics of my past. Initially came with a RAM of 16 KBites and then I bought a "powerful" 64 Kbites, what a wonder! Cali, Colombia
My ZX81 was extended with a QuickSilver sound card and the multi-expansion adapter, together with an extra modulator that multiplexed the sound onto the TV signal. QS also did a hi-res graphics board and a joystick adapter, but I did not have either of those.
Normally, when the 16K ram pack was plugged in, it turned off the 1K internal ram. I added a circuit to my ram pack that enabled the 1K ram in a different memory location when the ram pack was plugged in, which I used for machine code assists for my Basic programs. I then added another 1K of static ram on the ULA side of the bus isolation resistors that allowed me to change the character set (by changing the I register was used to hold the base address of the character table in ROM). I think my ZX81 was the only 18K one in existence.
I also added a modified a Tandy keyboard which I remapped using conductive paint, and fitted a power switch to it. No ram pack wobble for me!
The edge connector that the ram pack (and the printer) connected to was just tinned, not gold plated. This was an additional cause of ram pack problems when the connector oxidized.
I loved the review. I'm from Poland and nearly ended up becoming a 10-y.o. owner of one of these in 1989 (surely not for my own pocket money, though :)). Being the second ever computer I've seen or touched in person, it was just magic and absolutely mesmerizing. The reason I eventually broke the trade with a person who was to sell it to me was the wobbly-memory issue, which indeed was rendering it unusable. Great childhood memory, nevertheless.
My first computer was one of these. Had its limitations, but can do some great stuff for its day.
ZX81 was my first computer too. There were some great games for it, even without the RAM pack.
My very first computer! We used to input pictures from MAD Magazine etc. and also learned how to program on it by messing around with the existing code for other programs.
Mine went back for repairs twice due to the keyboard wearing out. The little touch pads didn't fare well under heavy use. Or at least mine didn't...
Thanks for the video!
I had a ZX81 with a beautiful keyboard. It was a proper, full size keyboard made by quackshot (I think.). I can say it made a hell of a difference. The guy I got it from was a genius. He also built the 16K ram pack inside the keyboard body so it was all contained. I loved that computer ( my 2nd ever one. My first was a Zx81 membrane. :)
You express a love for this computer. What is the nature of this admiration? Was it your first computer? Do you admire the minimalism of a computer that had been engineered down to four chips? It's blocky retro graphics? Perhaps, because of it being an extremely low budget computer, in a time when Britons were struggling economically.
I can appreciate the Sinclair ZX81 for these qualities. When I was young, I was able to touch both the Sinclair ZX80 and ZX81. I was not allowed to program them because the man who owned them thought they were fragile machines.
I spent a few days going over ZX81 videos, including all your ZX81 gaming videos. The reason: I had the opportunity to buy 3 or 4 ZX81s with books (no expansion) about a month ago. I'll give you my reasons for not buying them in the next comment.
It's the underdog thing. It's a machine of very limited capability, built down to a very low price, yet it manages to produce a level of entertainment well above what you might expect.
Martin Hollyer I worked really hard for a quid an hour, from a working class family as a post guy to save up and buy my first computer, my parents from the 1970s didn't have a clue. so laugh if you want.
I just bought a TS 1000 ($38) and the 16k rampack (about $12). Now I just need to get a $.50 adapter from Radio Shack and I'll soon be tapping out some good ol' BASIC. I really do want to try my hand at some assembly as well. 80's computers never die! My Atari 400 is pining away in my attic waiting to play Star Raiders again. :)
Great review of a very humble but historic computer. Great to see reviews like this and I look forward to watching your others.
I remember reading an article in a magazine circa 1981 where someone complained to Sinclair that their kit form ZX81 simply would not work. They had checked, checked and checked again that everything was put together correctly. They were invited to send their completed kit back to Sinclair for checking... and they agreed it was completely accurate and one of the most neat assemblies they'd seen. Except it was put together with superglue and not not solder!!! hahahahahaha
This was the first computer I ever owned and I wrote lots of programs with it. That memory pack had a bad habit of shifting hours into a session and the computer would reset. I used a regular cassette recorder to save programs.
What pissed off a lot of people like myself who upgraded from the ZX80 was the fact that Clive went to the trouble and hefty expense of designing and making the ULA chip and didn't bother to make any significant improvement in the way the computer produces video. The 8k ROM worked fine in the ZX80 so the main difference in the ZX81 was that it would run slower - a lot slower. The ULA only needed a counter and it could have offloaded the video processing so that the ZX81 would have been both fast and flicker free. The word "fast" being a relative term.
Great stuff Steve! I had the Spectrum, but my friend had a ZX81 that his Dad made from the kit. He always reckoned it was 'a proper computer and not just a stupid games machine like the Spectrum'. He won, he's a high-flying doctor now :)
I had the Mempak 16K RAM pack which had a lower profile and was the full width of the ZX81 and fixed with velcro along its length. Rarely had the memory wobble problem with that.
Steve, you have a great conversational style of presentation. Really enjoy watching these videos. Keep up the good work.
Thank you :)
Many years ago I got a book for programs that would only use 1K of ram, it was amazing how many 1K programs that was used back in the day.
+Mike Lee There was a 1k Chess available.
That's a very good video Steve. One thing, - you identified the ROM and RAM chips the wrong way round. Also, the extra chip location next to the RAM chip is for a second RAM chip as some units had two 1/2 K RAM chips instead of one 1K RAM chip. The 1/2 K ones were a smaller gauge and one of them sat where the 1K one is.
We used to have a computer shop in the 80s - we made a lot of money out of repairs - spares for the ZX81, Speccie etc. They were incredibly unreliable. Great review by the way.
My first computer. The RAM pack was badly connected, so I taped it down. Remember writing my own games in basic :)
100% excellent review! Great info, lots of stuff I didn't know about. Was never aware of the Timex 1500, I'll have to keep a lookout for one of those. I have some software for the 2068 (48k clone) which works on my Speccy, so I wonder if 1000 or 1500 software would work on the ZX81? Hope to find out someday.
There were some differences in screen size because of the higher scan speed of TV in the US and the crude way that the TV signal was generated by the CPU . This makes it difficult for programs that used the whole screen to run.
The Spectrum had a bigger and more advanced ULA that contained the scanning hardware for the screen, so this means that it was more likely that the programs would run unmodified on Timex and Sinclair systems.
A good friend had one of these back in the day. I felt sorry for him because it had no sound or color. I felt pretty badass because I had a TI 99/4A, lol.
So many memories of my zx81 !!! The good old days ...
I has a zx81 when it first went on to the market. With reference to the heat myth problem. When using it for more than an hour , the keyboard got quite warm, but it did not affect the machine in anyway. I also had a wobbly memorex 16k ram pack.
I gave my friend a kit version of the ZX81 which he was able to assemble and get working.
The first computer I ever got to play with, I was 9 and it was the only computer in school until they bought a zx spectrum.
awesome piece of old technology.
However interrupt service routine (you said that you don't know what it is), is, at least in microcontrollers, a routine that contains instructions that are executed when there's an interrupt request. If an interrupt is called (for example by pressing a key or a for a timer) the program counter,after the save in a stack area of the current program position, will jump to the "interrupt vector" immediately (where's contained the "interrupt service routine") to execute the instruction contained in that routine. At the end, the "program counter" returns to the location saved in the stack area and the program continues his cycle.
Basically, the interrupt is used to have a faster response than polling because the instruction on the ISR are executed immediately and in any position of the program.
Sorry for my english, I'm Italian, but i hope this can help.
Your English is commendable, and I understood you very well. Thank you for the information :)
I bought one in 1982 at Sears for $99.95. Kept it for two days and returned it. Now, all these years later I repurchased one on eBay with the 16K Ram upgrade and printer for $100. I will enjoy it much more now.....now that it is a computer collectible.
Thanks for the awesome review. It was really good to see inside one as well. They really were an engineering marvel of the day. I did not realise they were available in kit form. The initial Microbee (Aus) machines were also available only in kit form initially. I like the Sinclair machines as they made a proper attempt at having a language you could do something with (even with only 1k), where as the Commodore machines Basic was much more primitive and thus less accessible.
Dont forget the Acorn Atom Computer,
Which came before the BBC Model A.
The ZX Printer was actually pretty good and print was much more durable than you've been led to believe. I have some listings in a drawer somewhere that are still quite legible. For writing programs it was quite handy to print it all out and look at it "offline" to get the big picture. It photocopied very well too.
The smell as the print stylus vapourised the coating was quite unique, until I took welding classes anyway!
Wow, i loved my ZX81 back in the day, so many memories
10 PRINT "Hi my name is MARK"
20 GOTO 10
RUN
4 out of memory!!
D'oh
best review i seen,ever on the zx81...A classic computer that withstood the hands of time!!
@SteveBenway It never ceases to amaze me how much of this stuff goes on in the computer industry (and still does). How did this ever make it to market? They must not have done adequate testing. Probably didn't want to spend the money on the prototypes.
Im really glad you did this reveiw Steve as iv never seen the Sinclair ZX81 or the 80 before great video
while huming and haring about buying a phone (5" 960*540) ie "low resolution".
I wondered what the resolution of my first computer was.
Thanks for the answer and memories.
Ram pack wobble fixed with blu tack or a match stick.
I also recall recording programs from radio broadcasts but that was probably the zx 48 or 128.
@SteveBenway The detail I keep forgetting is the cost and how much cheaper than other computers it was at the time.
Of course you are right. :)
Great review, it's always good to see these old machines still in use. I have one of these, still unassembled in the box. Part of me wants to get the soldering iron out and the other wants to keep it in pristine condition. I think the Newbrain machine was first made by a company called Newbury Labs. Acorn's BBC Micro was a worthy winner in the TV programme race, they were sturdier than the ZX81 and better to use than the Newbrain.
Great System review. And Moosies back!!! You had me worried there when you were listing the computers it was more fun than playing, but you stopped at the Amiga :) phew heart attack over....lol
ive come to the conclusion why i like the zx81 so much: its just so bloody aesthetically pleasing! one of those wouldnt look out of place on the table of a trendy bar as an ornament.
Nice video, thanks for uploading! That brings back memories :)
This was basically my first computer on which I've learned to code. I did have a 'real' external (quite sturdy and useful) keyboard peripheral and a 16k expansion from another brand (I think they were from a brand called 'Memorex') that was actually quite reliable. All velcro'd to the machine itself :)
Programming machine code on it was quite 'fun'. IIRC there was basically no way to save binary data, so you'd basically just create REM statements where you'd poke your machine code into (written beforehand on paper) and then add a 'USR' line at the end (if I remember correctly) to call your machine code. That way you could save it as a BASIC program.
There was probably a better way, but that was the only way I knew! :)
Anyway I got so proficient at it that I learned to read/write machine code without mnemonics; just reading the numbers. Fun times :)
that was my first computer black and white with 1k ram,quality,i remember saving up for the 16k ram pack.
The hardware and ROM software were cleverly designed. There was only the Z80, the ROM chip, RAM, and a Ferranti chip that made it all work. When you study how the ROM was programmed to maintain graphics on the screen at all times plus do everything else, you realize how clever it was done.
Thank you for the excellent review, I think you were quite objective to the highs and lows of the system specs. The dual function keyboard kind of makes me wish my keyboard had other functions attached to my letter keys. I have only had brief experiences with tape loading which was slow but still better than manually inputting pages and pages of code to play Frogger. I enjoy seeing the ZX81 through your eyes but I like the ZX Spectrum more. ;)
Great review Steve, would of liked to see the printer again as i always found it very amusing. My Secondry school had one one these in their Computer Room. Fortunately they had some BBC computers to. :)
Good Lord...I rem late nights sitting there punching keys to do some Basic entry...and a lot of words called... And, Or, Goto to Line, Repeat.......it is the reason I have gray hair now. But I loved it, simply loved it. Never go the RAM upgrade pack, what, 16K? it was fun to see what you could do with 1K of RAM...helped to understand DOS a little better. Long Live Sinclair !
Great review.. I wanted the TS1000 back then, but I think my family was a bit concerned about it's durability and I ended up with a Vic-20. Always appreciated the TS-1000/ZX81 tho...
Ahh, back when computers were a thing you owned and got your hands dirty with! Those were the days. I wish fixed-architecture computing would make a comeback, but I suppose the retro scene is all we really need for now. (Untill all the old computers break, lol)
Ohhhhh yes does any one remember the infamouse ram pack wobble?
After many hours of typing it all in, then lose it because the ram pack would slightly move.
I remember that problem very well. I had the ram packs, a tape drive and modem that all connected to it. Eventually bought a keyboard kit that replaced the membrane board and everything then connected to a ribbon cable.
+ciscoglenn I eventually got some double sided tape and used that to cure the Rampack wobble. The most amount of ram I got was 16K, great days eh!!
WOW - this brings back memories - this was my 1st computer :)
+Jimyjames73 I had a clone back in the day. It was my first computer too. I ended up hacking it in two cool ways: I tapped a "video out" signal to send video directly to to TVs that had AVIN , bypassing the RF modulator which increased video quality, and made myself a real keyboard. I purchased discrete key modules at a keyboard factory and designed the PCB and exterior enclosure myself. The people at the keyboard factory liked the project so much they engraved all the keys, with multiple functions, etc, in each key, for free!
Wow - good for you
Jimyjames73 Thanks - those were fun projects.
I never had one of these back then, only in more recent years thanks to eBay. I was certainly aware of them, but the Spectrum was due shortly & I almost ended up going that route. In some ways I wish I had, as it would have been used more than the computer I ended up with (Sharp MZ80A). So though not an 'original user' of the ZX81, I have a certain fondness for it; I like its futuristic looks, and appreciate its influence & impact. Now I have 2 working models (1 boxed, 1 loose), & 1 dead.
Re: BBC computer literacy project. As I understand it (and I could be wrong) while Acorn were first to market, both the Spectrum and Proton were presented to the BBC and the BBC went for the Acorn design. In truth this was probably a blessing for the Sinclair team in the long run as it gave them time to refine the design. That said, the skill and talent that went into it can't be underestimated. Chris Smith's "The ZX Spectrum ULA" is a great read & showcases the genius work of that time.
Maybe there was some truth to the claim about the ULA chip overheating; in the Timex-Sinclair 1000, they put a heatsink on the ULA chip. Timex also redesigned the connector on the RAM expansion to reduce "memory wobble".
From my experience, it was the 1st generation (the ones with the light gray keys rather than blue/green/grey) Sinclair Spectrum 48K machines that used to overheat. This was because the 16K and 48K machines were the same board, but the 48K version had an additional daughter board sitting above the main board to hold the extra 32K of memory.
This restricted air flow and generated more heat in the first place, causing those machines to overheat, at least in my experience. It also made the system much heavier. I think I still have one of these early machines knocking around somewhere, although I believe Sinclair eventually offered to swap systems with serious overheating problems.
As large(r) memory chips became available, the Spectrum was re-designed to put all 48K on the main board, eliminating the daughter board. I believe that they eventually had 64K (8x64Kbit chips) of memory, with 16K disabled and overlaid with the 16K ROM.
Thankyou...so many memories, I have 3 but 2 are not working.
1 of them when I attach the power supply warms up and started smoking ?? So I pulled and left until I can find a solution.
Excellent upload...many thx really enjoyed.
ZX81 had the best keyboard ever made, never lost a key !
:o)
I had a bit of Xmas money and feeling a bit light in the head (see my two previous comments below), I bought a Timex Sinclair 1000 from eBay (something I never do because of shipping costs). I've been watching the machine for a couple of weeks (only $27 CDN but the shipping cost was $56 CDN) too pricey. Then I took a look today at the shipping price and they had lowered it to only $26 CDN.
Bidding item prices for other TS1000s were 2 to 3 times the amount and often did not have a stupid power supply, 16K memory, TV connection or cassette cables! I figure it was selling so low because it had fossilized blue tack and hadn't been cleaned up or tested. We'll have to see if this thing works after it's sent through the mail.
This is an exception to your BUY THROUGH BIDDING strategy. The buy it now price was much lower than a lot of items up for bidding "current auction price" without all the pieces. The only thing it didn't come with was the tutorial book by Vickers and the original boxes. Once the shipping became moderately acceptable, I bought the sucker. Total cost 45 GBP.
Steve, I believe it was the Spectrum, not the ZX81 that was up against the BBC for the computer education scheme. If it had been the ZX81 it wouldn't have been much of a competition! ;-)
"Micro Men" - There was a programme that brought back memories! Obviously there was a bit of dramatic licence taken (not as much as you would think though) but generally accurate and affectionate. Required viewing for anyone interested in that era!
Where I used to live Ferranti was just down the road from me.
Just noticed the Rex Maze cassette - best game on the system! 'Rex is hunting you'
Great system review, Steve! :D
It certainly had its place in history, going by this review and does seem quite impressive on the whole, relative to its day.
I now know where the Facebook: "poke" function originated from! :P
I'm glad you picked up on the double entendre when you said Rob gave you a ZX81 as that made me chuckle too. :D
May I offer a piece of constructive criticism? Re: your intro, I think you should make it a touch shorter (not necessarily a lot) and at the end of the (continued)
Just started watching The IT Crowd (a British comedy series) on netflix and this was mentioned in the first episode.
Great vid, most informative. I have to say, i was lucky enough to have one when they came out, and the rampack. After that, an atari800xl, and then, and then, and then, hehehe, and now i buid my own.
But i have to say, the zx81, with its tape fails, rampack fails, terrible keyboard ( which i peeled off and stuck to something else, silly young boy ) was and is still my favourite.
Oh, and the Basic language was so so easy and fun to learn.
I learned machine code on the ZX81. I wrote a space invaders game that worked great. It was better than the space invaders that was on the Atari game console at that time. In machine code the ZX81 had plenty of speed for video games with fast-moving graphics.
My first ZX81, I taught my self to program and I did burn my leg as the heat sink did melt into my clothing and I still have the burn to prove it oh by way Newbury Newbrain by the way and not too sure but the Acorn Atom was the original prototype they produced for the BBC but good video (y)
@senorverde09
Yeah I bought a ZX81 and 16KB RAM pack for approx £35 which said untested, and yes both were totally dead upon arrival and plugging in. So I could not really return it due to the untested disclaimer.
Nice review Steve!! Nice new intro too!!
It was Ram Pack Wobble not memory wobble,
Everybody called it Ram Pack Wobble,
Ram Pack Wobble was not fatal but was frustrating,
I had a proteck fullsize keyboard for mine,
Which caused major problems with using my,
Experimental 16K Rampack,
Great video by the way !
Great review as all ways. I like computers from back then, they where definitely more intresting then todays. But dont get me wrong I love how much more powerful they are now, but something about the innocence back then intrestest me.
Hey Steve guess what? when i type nothing but 'zx81' this is the first video that comes up. You practically own the zx81 scene on youtube! ;D
@SteveBenway I guess this must be to some people what the C64 is to me. I would love to get my hands on one of those again and figure out how to get some of the great games I used to play like Ninja and Tass Times in Tone Town.
I'd like to get one of these (Timex 1000 here in the states), but I'm a tad dubious. Most auctions I've seen always come with everything you need to hook it up (mains adapter, RF switchbox, &c.) but the seller always lists it as 'untested,' even though everything's there for it to be tested.
I think it would have been possible to have sound from a ZX81 since it has a audio out for saving data, with some kind of clever coding I dont see any reason why that couldn't have been used that way and maybe be as good as the beeeper on the spectrum. I always found basic hard on the spectrum becuase of how the keyboard is set up (never had a ZX81), but learning basic on my first ever computer, an Amstrad CPC464 was easy as pi.
Very good review, I can't believe I found your channel recently! I love your voice :D You sound like an instructor from a document movie from the 40s :D (no offense). Keep up the good work and now I go and hit the subscribe button!
I liked the intro. It could use some swimsuit models holding and licking the consoles though :)
@SteveBenway Keep in mind that all of the companies that were run that way are out of business or no longer in computers.
Great review thanks-I loved mine!It died after a couple of years,not sure why.
@MaximumRD Lol, yes I guess mostly people from the UK will have some nostalgia for the Sinclair systems they did better over here. Timex released them in the U.S not sure about Canada though.
I had a zx81.
bought from UK.
I actually did machine language programming.
until the memory module "crashed".
@SteveBenway Yeah, It's tough dealing with union's and all :)
Had a few of these when i was a kid ,had no idea how to use em though & the manuals didnot help me at all . still loved everything about the zx81 though ,ZEN beuty of a machine
The new intro is good, though as you mentioned elsewhere, it could use some trimming. :)
I bet the Spectrum would have done even better than it did if it was colour clash free like the ZX81 but had the 128k always from the start and of course it's sound chip.
* Expanable to 64k i had a 32k ram pack my father had 64k. If you are good with a soldering iron ive heard you can even socket 16k internally
@AtsumaKarin slideshow, have a still image of the system you're reviewing along with a bit of text stating what it is. :)
I know what you were going for, though. I'm guessing that that's everything in your collection in the slideshow and it doesn't overly bother me, personally, just offering advice based on others' views, really. :)
I feel strangely compelled to buy a t-shirt now as I don't have access to a bunker to hide from the rampaging moose! :P
I have a TV for it , after watching the Game Play - I,m interested - it only came with the Starter Load Life , Math or Averages - I have a Cassette - I'll try those :) QC