Have seen a few comments questioning the physics behind this. Some comments contain questions, others assertions of how 'the physics are wrong'. To understand the basics of gyroscopes and precession, watch this wonderful lecture with Walter Lewin, former professor of physics at MIT. ruclips.net/video/XPUuF_dECVI/видео.html Specifically look 35 minutes in, where Walter spins a bicycle wheel and hangs one side of its axle on a string. The wheel stays upright and rotates around. It rotates in different directions depending on which way he initially spins the wheel. This should help you understand how a reverse rotating crank cancel out some of the gyroscopic effect of the wheels. The wheels will precess in the opposite direction of the crank, because they respond opposite to the torque applied. Spinning the crank in reverse is not some new invention, nor new realization. From what I can find precession was discovered by Greek astronomer Hipparchus around 190-120 BC. Some motorcycles that have had reverse rotating cranks include: Yamaha TZ700, Honda NSR500, Honda RC166 etc. Boxrepsol talks about introducing a reverse rotating crank in the NSR 500 in 1987. They were of course not the first ones to use this. "Another important adjustment made was the direction in which the crankshafts rotated to counteract the gyroscopic effects of the wheels, improving the bike-s performance in run-off areas. Even though the bike’s manoeuvrability improved, it did create the need to add an additional shaft to invert the spin direction at the engine’s exit, which slightly decreased its power." www.boxrepsol.com/en/technology/the-honda-nsr500-engine-evolution/
BTW since you shared that video I'm eagerly watching not only that lecture on gyros of (uppercase) Professor Walter Lewin, but hist other lectures as well. aside the wheel he hung from the string, what impressed me the most was watching him rotating in his chair... by only applying torque to the wheel spinning he was holding in his hands!? man, that was crazy. astonishing. Again thank you.
Perhaps I'm a bit older, but I remember Eric Laithwaite, he made a gyroscope made of lots of little weights on thin spokes, so you could see the deflection as it resisted movement.
Gyroscopic precession is not rocket science and has been known for a VERY long time. A ton of engines have used this counter rotating crankshaft design this is not new.
Only 2 current production bikes have reverse rotating crankshafts. The Ducati Panigale V4's, and MV Agusta F3 800/675. So if you're looking for the closest thing to a MotoGP bike any Ducati V4 variation is going to be your best bet. They're 5 years into the development of the V4 engine in production form and has the most GP derived technology. Truly a incredible and also beautiful engineering.
I’ve been riding 50+ years and never knew about the backwards crank direction or gave it a thought, as you said….there’s always something to learn! BTW, you explained it all very well in a concise manner……which is a nice change on a RUclips video!
I have a friend, that's a mechanic. Everytime I ask a question, he responds just to like this!! Very analytical! He is going to love this!!! Thank you!!! 😃
counter rotating crankshaft also reduces inertia to changing direction - not just lean angle. On motogop bikes they don’t care as much about longitudinal stability as much as the ability to change direction quickly. For road bikes, safety demands the opposite.
I'd have to agree there also.. these bike are fast. Don't get me wrong my little baby 300 ninja is no liter bike.. but I promise 113 on a flat out is just as fun as 135 when my helmet starts choking me from lift.
@@Gh..o..s..t It just isn't. And there's pretty much no way your little 300 can even do 113... My '14 Brutale 675 on the other hand. 135 is definitely more fun than 113!
@@XtreeM_FaiL It may say that on the dash but it absolutely does not go that fast! I work at a motorcycle dealership in sales and have ridden literally hundreds of different bikes. A stock Ninja 300 will not do 170km/h. The only possible way for that, shy of some great mods, is a monster downhill with a strong tailwind! I've ridden a 2014, 2017 and 2019 Ninja 300, they take forever just to get up to 140. Once you introduce a slight incline or a headwind, you're clapped out. The Ninja 400 will go that fast but not the 300. You're talking out of your ass if you say any different! It may go that fast on paper but not on asphalt!
@@jbb3675 That's not true I had 2014 stock ninja 300 and on the gps it tops at 177kph on the straight road and 193kph on the dash of course it take long time to reach there but it does it.
Nice video, I see a man of culture if you read Tony Foale book. The only part I left for understanding later was the suspension part.. soo tough. Could you please make a video on how boxer engine gyroscopic behavior affects motorcycle stability. Thanks and thumbs up on your work!
Totally agree, huge amount to be learned from Foales chassis design. The suspension part is a rewarding read; particularly the 'tyre versus suspension' part about the upwards movement of forks and wheels. Well worth a read!
Hello Mike. This is a very good and informative video. Make me realize how much we don't even realize about some technology that has been in plain sight. I am also really interested in the showcased books. Whenever I get some time I will try to buy and read those, they look really interesting. Meanwhile keep making these informative videos filled with passion for motorsports.
i went from the panigale 1199 to my current panigale v4s . the difference is inmense , the direction changing the v4s does is realy mindblowing . mind you my 1199 wasnt a s model so i went to a backward rotating engine and lighter wheels . dont know whats responcible the most for it tho . got some vids of my bike , maybe you like em
Ducati Panigale V4 street engines are counter rotating. Almost all professional reviewers "complain" that they can't wheelie like they can on the KTM. They also don't use chain to drive the valve train allowing for higher RPM. These engineers don't get enough credit.
MV Agusta has been doing this since 2014 or 2017 in their street bikes if memory serves me well. I must add that the video was very good and informative, Mike. Cheers!
I heard the Suzuki MotoGP team came up with the idea of the backward spinning crankshaft. They said that it counter-acts the centrifugal forces of the wheels to provide better stability and handling in corners, which is why the Suzukis in MotoGP have become known over recent years for being excellent in corners.
surly the engine rotation depends on the primary drive. If the clutch is gear driven from the crankshaft the engine will rotate forwards. If chain driven the engine has to turn backwards. As smaller engines tend to be gear driven and larger chain, it follows that larger bikes will normally have backward turning crank shafts.
Not very complex for 2 strokes (which I found slightly annoying when I had to mirror my motorbike designs switching from chainsaw engines vs grass trimmers, but it wasn't worth the small effort of switching engine direction mostly because the specific clutch it had on that particular engine was directional and I didn't feel like changing it out with a symmetrical one). Since those don't have cams you really just move the magneto pickup to the other side and spin it backwards when starting, that's literally it.
I do need to think of it tomorrow morning! After working on my projects for 14 hours, I feel what you say is kinda upside down! Nevermind, I'm way toooooo sleepy to argue! GN
That HUGE 2 liter triple longitudinal crank 3 cylinder must be a handful in the corners? What about a lawnmower style vertical shaft engine? Saw some bike with a new type of front suspension that uses vertical springs, front wheel vertical turn axis and braking forces transferred longitudinally as it should (Far less brake dive). A totally new 2 wheel vehicle dynamic.
Simple test, get on any bike. Apply front brake try to do a burnout. or even film a hard take off, the rear will rise. --Gyro force from reving, Yes!!!. ---Gyro force via a chain to a sprung rear wheel.... no Hence dragging rear brake drag squats the rear mid corner. KEITH CODE "twist of the wrist" video actually shows this with video and physics explanation
One slight issue, wouldn't the effect change with what gear you're in ? As far as I can remember, inertia increases as the square of the speed, so even a tiny change in ratio would have a pronounced effect. But then I guess it making loads of tiny improvements to ad up to a big one, like on track ( pedal ) bikes one team had the chain on the left hand side, requiring lots of non standard parts, and the only TINY advantage I can think of, is because the bikes only turn left, the chain on the left would very, very, very slightly reduce the drag.
You are talking about a completely different inertia. You are talking about the inertia of moving the whole bike, that would be mv^2/r. That would not change with this modification, only thing that matters is the mass, speed and the radius of the turn, it doesn't matter what is happening inside of the bike. He is talking about the inertia of rotation of the bike along the axis perpendicular to the bike, this is where rotation in reverse cancels out the inertia of rotating wheels.
Big [X] the Yamaha bike uses a very similar to factory engine that I've seen and it doesn't run backwards, they'd have to redesign their entire cam system and accessory drives. The Ducati runs backwards, and I think another bike does but not the big four bikes. Honestly thinking about the transmission it's just straight impossible
i would say price is not a factor, one or more wheel in the gearbox would not be that much. Reason is probably that you want the customers bikes be rather more stable than less - easier for amateur drivers.
What happened to your hand ?also thanks for your vids , can you suggest few reading material I would love to learn more ( i am a budding track enthusiast )
If you made a custom sport bike frame, could you put the engine in backwards and accomplish this? Like, yeah the manifolds are all facing the wrong way, and nothing would line up, a dozen other things, but sans all that technical poo-pooing, wouldn't it rotate backwards in this way? Also, if you got your valves and your ignition and all that sorted, why can't an engine, unconnected to a transmission, just spin backwards, leaving the block orientated the way it is?
yes, all the Yamaha Vstar crusier bikes have reverse rotating crankshafts it makes the bike more nimble at speed - cruiser bikes tend to have heavy tires they are no longer in production, but you can find them for less than $3k with less than 10,000 miles on the odo if you look around - even the big ones like the V4 Royal Star, 1300, water cooled shaft drive
@@gurnblanston3210 more nimble than if the crank was spinning in the same direction as the wheels they are designed for long distance riding - not for doing wheelies
A reverse-rotating crankshaft on a GP bike is not exactly new. The unraced 1954 horizontal works Norton would have been reverse rotation. There are probably other engines of the same period which did, too
Most street riders don’t ride fast enough to notice any benefit from a counter-rotating crank. Most don’t even notice the benefit from lightweight aluminum wheels!
Have seen a few comments questioning the physics behind this. Some comments contain questions, others assertions of how 'the physics are wrong'.
To understand the basics of gyroscopes and precession, watch this wonderful lecture with Walter Lewin, former professor of physics at MIT. ruclips.net/video/XPUuF_dECVI/видео.html
Specifically look 35 minutes in, where Walter spins a bicycle wheel and hangs one side of its axle on a string. The wheel stays upright and rotates around.
It rotates in different directions depending on which way he initially spins the wheel.
This should help you understand how a reverse rotating crank cancel out some of the gyroscopic effect of the wheels.
The wheels will precess in the opposite direction of the crank, because they respond opposite to the torque applied.
Spinning the crank in reverse is not some new invention, nor new realization. From what I can find precession was discovered by Greek astronomer Hipparchus around 190-120 BC.
Some motorcycles that have had reverse rotating cranks include: Yamaha TZ700, Honda NSR500, Honda RC166 etc.
Boxrepsol talks about introducing a reverse rotating crank in the NSR 500 in 1987. They were of course not the first ones to use this. "Another important adjustment made was the direction in which the crankshafts rotated to counteract the gyroscopic effects of the wheels, improving the bike-s performance in run-off areas. Even though the bike’s manoeuvrability improved, it did create the need to add an additional shaft to invert the spin direction at the engine’s exit, which slightly decreased its power."
www.boxrepsol.com/en/technology/the-honda-nsr500-engine-evolution/
BTW since you shared that video I'm eagerly watching not only that lecture on gyros of (uppercase) Professor Walter Lewin, but hist other lectures as well. aside the wheel he hung from the string, what impressed me the most was watching him rotating in his chair... by only applying torque to the wheel spinning he was holding in his hands!? man, that was crazy. astonishing. Again thank you.
Perhaps I'm a bit older, but I remember Eric Laithwaite, he made a gyroscope made of lots of little weights on thin spokes, so you could see the deflection as it resisted movement.
Gyroscopic precession is not rocket science and has been known for a VERY long time. A ton of engines have used this counter rotating crankshaft design this is not new.
Man out here answering questions that I didn't even know
Ikr? 🤯🤯
Me too…and I LOVE IT! XD
true words
fax
Only 2 current production bikes have reverse rotating crankshafts. The Ducati Panigale V4's, and MV Agusta F3 800/675. So if you're looking for the closest thing to a MotoGP bike any Ducati V4 variation is going to be your best bet. They're 5 years into the development of the V4 engine in production form and has the most GP derived technology. Truly a incredible and also beautiful engineering.
Thank you. I was about to ask that question.
The V4 S or also the V4 ?
@@brunomartin7798 All currently in production V4 motorcycles from Ducati, including the V4 Streetfighter ;-).
TVs apache rr310
@@o73venky wrong! reverse inclined engine is not same as counter rotating crank.
I’ve been riding 50+ years and never knew about the backwards crank direction or gave it a thought, as you said….there’s always something to learn! BTW, you explained it all very well in a concise manner……which is a nice change on a RUclips video!
I have a friend, that's a mechanic. Everytime I ask a question, he responds just to like this!! Very analytical! He is going to love this!!! Thank you!!! 😃
counter rotating crankshaft also reduces inertia to changing direction - not just lean angle.
On motogop bikes they don’t care as much about longitudinal stability as much as the ability to change direction quickly.
For road bikes, safety demands the opposite.
I'd have to agree there also.. these bike are fast. Don't get me wrong my little baby 300 ninja is no liter bike.. but I promise 113 on a flat out is just as fun as 135 when my helmet starts choking me from lift.
@@Gh..o..s..t It just isn't. And there's pretty much no way your little 300 can even do 113... My '14 Brutale 675 on the other hand. 135 is definitely more fun than 113!
@@jbb3675 300 Ninja goes over 170.
@@XtreeM_FaiL It may say that on the dash but it absolutely does not go that fast! I work at a motorcycle dealership in sales and have ridden literally hundreds of different bikes. A stock Ninja 300 will not do 170km/h. The only possible way for that, shy of some great mods, is a monster downhill with a strong tailwind! I've ridden a 2014, 2017 and 2019 Ninja 300, they take forever just to get up to 140. Once you introduce a slight incline or a headwind, you're clapped out. The Ninja 400 will go that fast but not the 300. You're talking out of your ass if you say any different! It may go that fast on paper but not on asphalt!
@@jbb3675 That's not true I had 2014 stock ninja 300 and on the gps it tops at 177kph on the straight road and 193kph on the dash of course it take long time to reach there but it does it.
Nice video, I see a man of culture if you read Tony Foale book. The only part I left for understanding later was the suspension part.. soo tough. Could you please make a video on how boxer engine gyroscopic behavior affects motorcycle stability.
Thanks and thumbs up on your work!
Totally agree, huge amount to be learned from Foales chassis design. The suspension part is a rewarding read; particularly the 'tyre versus suspension' part about the upwards movement of forks and wheels. Well worth a read!
Another great Vid :) Thanks and what’s the news on that Cast?
Hello Mike. This is a very good and informative video. Make me realize how much we don't even realize about some technology that has been in plain sight.
I am also really interested in the showcased books. Whenever I get some time I will try to buy and read those, they look really interesting.
Meanwhile keep making these informative videos filled with passion for motorsports.
i went from the panigale 1199 to my current panigale v4s . the difference is inmense , the direction changing the v4s does is realy mindblowing . mind you my 1199 wasnt a s model so i went to a backward rotating engine and lighter wheels . dont know whats responcible the most for it tho . got some vids of my bike , maybe you like em
I like your username. Maybe I'll create a new account, PutWessies, or something.
@@N0t4v41l4ble ok SicMuff
You should ask Ana Linvader first.
Hope your wrist gets better soon Mike!
Never had any idea about this but I'm happy I learned something interesting to use as an icebreaker.
Great to see one of your videos again!
Your videos have great production value and are always interesting and informative
Mike going for the santa look? 🎅
Ducati Panigale V4 street engines are counter rotating. Almost all professional reviewers "complain" that they can't wheelie like they can on the KTM. They also don't use chain to drive the valve train allowing for higher RPM. These engineers don't get enough credit.
Yeah you're right only Italian bikes , if they do it at all
Ducatis are not built for wheelie. They are usually not ridden by hooligans.
You forgot to write right a word "professional reviewers"
@@ardmrad9278 cough cough.. hypermortard rider cough cough..
@@chronophobic Haha, I know, but they are nowhere near the orange bike riders.
MV Agusta has been doing this since 2014 or 2017 in their street bikes if memory serves me well.
I must add that the video was very good and informative, Mike. Cheers!
Gotta be against the law to remove that classic outro music
Hey Mike, great video! What with your arm, hope nothing serious
The Harley Davidson Sprint, which was made in Italy by Armachi in the 60s, also had a reverse rotating crank.
I heard the Suzuki MotoGP team came up with the idea of the backward spinning crankshaft. They said that it counter-acts the centrifugal forces of the wheels to provide better stability and handling in corners, which is why the Suzukis in MotoGP have become known over recent years for being excellent in corners.
please this topic deserves a more in deep video! 🙏
The thumbnail literally showed me everything I need to know lol.
Man finally you're back, hope your arm heal soon.
Stay safe buddy and keep it rolling.
surly the engine rotation depends on the primary drive. If the clutch is gear driven from the crankshaft the engine will rotate forwards. If chain driven the engine has to turn backwards. As smaller engines tend to be gear driven and larger chain, it follows that larger bikes will normally have backward turning crank shafts.
I love your channel
dude , i just discover this thing with my bike a while ago .. then the algorithm hit me with this 🤯
So much knowledge in just 2 minutes thank you. Is there a way to buy or make a bike have a crankshaft that spins backwards?
buy a Ducati Panigale V4
Not very complex for 2 strokes (which I found slightly annoying when I had to mirror my motorbike designs switching from chainsaw engines vs grass trimmers, but it wasn't worth the small effort of switching engine direction mostly because the specific clutch it had on that particular engine was directional and I didn't feel like changing it out with a symmetrical one). Since those don't have cams you really just move the magneto pickup to the other side and spin it backwards when starting, that's literally it.
Plenty of engines are like this
all the Yamaha Vstar cruiser bikes have reverse spinning crankshafts, including the insane V4 Vmax
You can build a motorcycle with a bicycle engine kit, that engine rotates in reverse too.
Thanks to the point info no to fluff or bs
Cool, talk about anti squat
I finally understand why rear tires on cars squat even on a dyno.
I do need to think of it tomorrow morning! After working on my projects for 14 hours, I feel what you say is kinda upside down!
Nevermind, I'm way toooooo sleepy to argue! GN
make a video about standard parameters between wheelbase, center of gravity and rake
boi do I love your videos. Keep up the good work and the beard!!
So is that why I find my MV Agusta rivale is a little bit tricky to pull wheelies with, or at least more than most bikes I've riding 🤔
Wheelies are useless but learning how to control them in racing is a must.
That HUGE 2 liter triple longitudinal crank 3 cylinder must be a handful in the corners? What about a lawnmower style vertical shaft engine? Saw some bike with a new type of front suspension that uses vertical springs, front wheel vertical turn axis and braking forces transferred longitudinally as it should (Far less brake dive). A totally new 2 wheel vehicle dynamic.
Simple test, get on any bike. Apply front brake try to do a burnout. or even film a hard take off, the rear will rise. --Gyro force from reving, Yes!!!. ---Gyro force via a chain to a sprung rear wheel.... no
Hence dragging rear brake drag squats the rear mid corner.
KEITH CODE "twist of the wrist" video actually shows this with video and physics explanation
You can also have anti squat occur with traditional street bike correct? I remember something about it being mentioned in A Twist of the Wrist II
Anti-squat is generated by swing arm angle & chain pull.
@@MikeonBikes I wonder which electric bikes spin their motors backwards and which don't.
Great video! thanks for the lesson
I love your series so much
And he kept it short, bless you Mike 🤘
Well explained thanks
Beard is looking great there, Brother!
One slight issue, wouldn't the effect change with what gear you're in ? As far as I can remember, inertia increases as the square of the speed, so even a tiny change in ratio would have a pronounced effect. But then I guess it making loads of tiny improvements to ad up to a big one, like on track ( pedal ) bikes one team had the chain on the left hand side, requiring lots of non standard parts, and the only TINY advantage I can think of, is because the bikes only turn left, the chain on the left would very, very, very slightly reduce the drag.
You are talking about a completely different inertia. You are talking about the inertia of moving the whole bike, that would be mv^2/r. That would not change with this modification, only thing that matters is the mass, speed and the radius of the turn, it doesn't matter what is happening inside of the bike.
He is talking about the inertia of rotation of the bike along the axis perpendicular to the bike, this is where rotation in reverse cancels out the inertia of rotating wheels.
Thanks Mike. I had been wondering about this for the longest time. One less question to ponder now.
It would only need extra gear wheel which inverse the direction from where output would come out.
Nice video! Always super interesting! But what happened to your arm? Yoga injury? 😛
Big [X] the Yamaha bike uses a very similar to factory engine that I've seen and it doesn't run backwards, they'd have to redesign their entire cam system and accessory drives. The Ducati runs backwards, and I think another bike does but not the big four bikes. Honestly thinking about the transmission it's just straight impossible
Have any motocross manufacturers ever tested this engine config on a MX bike?
Never knew that 👍🏻 thanks for the info
Does that awesome viking beard add to the gyroscopic effect?
Motogp bikes have more engineering than the space ship these days. Good vid. What happened to the wrist u take a spill riding?
i would say price is not a factor, one or more wheel in the gearbox would not be that much. Reason is probably that you want the customers bikes be rather more stable than less - easier for amateur drivers.
Gr8 vid, mike. Ride safe, god bless u.
BRILLIANT explanation...
Mikes on beard!!
Great video as always btw.
I have one more question
Why don't we see flat plane inline 4s on the motogp grid?
They're all either V4s or crossplane inline 4s
Panigale v4 crank spins backwards, honda cbr rrr has timing chain and cams spin backwards.
Another new thing to learn 😄
What happened to your hand ?also thanks for your vids , can you suggest few reading material I would love to learn more ( i am a budding track enthusiast )
What do you want to learn more about? Physics or riding skills?
Maybe great for protoypes, but hopefully will never enter series production, except the primary drive features a chain again.
key word "Backwards" got u
Very interesting, Thanks 👍
Dude, I love that beard you got there! You look like a Norse god of bikes lol
I think the new Ducati v4s also use reverse rotating crank
And it counters the tendency to highside.
Great info
Your videos are great!
If you made a custom sport bike frame, could you put the engine in backwards and accomplish this? Like, yeah the manifolds are all facing the wrong way, and nothing would line up, a dozen other things, but sans all that technical poo-pooing, wouldn't it rotate backwards in this way? Also, if you got your valves and your ignition and all that sorted, why can't an engine, unconnected to a transmission, just spin backwards, leaving the block orientated the way it is?
Ah nevermind.
Cool stuff. Never crossed my mind.
well, those engineers are nuts!
Now if it counter forces from the reverse force the back wheel... doesn't it affect braking. It is the reason the MotoGP bikes front wheelie well?
Honda ST1300 enters chat.. am i a joke to you?
LOVE FROM INDIA :)
What about the BMW g310 or tvs rr310 with inclined reverse engine ???
what a production!
Snyggt skägget! Hoppas att din hand kommer att läka snabbt.
Wow! Didn’t know this! Makes sense…..
Informative!
Are there any street bikes that do have a contra-rotating crank?
yes, all the Yamaha Vstar crusier bikes have reverse rotating crankshafts
it makes the bike more nimble at speed - cruiser bikes tend to have heavy tires
they are no longer in production, but you can find them for less than $3k with less than 10,000 miles on the odo if you look around - even the big ones like the V4 Royal Star, 1300, water cooled shaft drive
@@gurnblanston3210 more nimble than if the crank was spinning in the same direction as the wheels
they are designed for long distance riding - not for doing wheelies
Haha, Thumbnail is informative enough to get the idea of why is that, just clicked on this video to write the comment
Get well soon Mike!
in The video he turning the wheel in the same direction ? twice clockwise or Iam blind ?
Big brain time!
Pee Wee MX bikes with backward rotating engines had a tendency to fall over when jumping.
A reverse-rotating crankshaft on a GP bike is not exactly new. The unraced 1954 horizontal works Norton would have been reverse rotation. There are probably other engines of the same period which did, too
"Jack Shaft" would be an excellent pork name...
You the best... Thanks
Street Bike: We want stable! Race Bike: We want cornering! And what you said about cost.
They turn backwards to crank the wheel forward
thanks Bro
Most street riders don’t ride fast enough to notice any benefit from a counter-rotating crank. Most don’t even notice the benefit from lightweight aluminum wheels!
70 mph compared to 180mph on the track? Well.... YES!
counter rotating crank.
awesome video as usual.
all hail the algorithm
Thank you moto guru
Why are they all using unified software?
Whoa!!! Mind blown!!!
Master teach me more😮
Awesome beard ❤
Love that beard, also nice video😅
Make a video about rear shock settings
What happened to your arm? :(
He wrapped it up
En ve chiang em?