Building an ALUMINUM Sailboat Pt 8 - HYBRID Power on a Sailboat: Will it Work for Long Distance?
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- Опубликовано: 15 июн 2024
- #sailing #hybridpower #powermanagement
This time on Distant Shores we're planning out the energy requirements of our new Enksail Orion 49 custom aluminum sailboat. Will a hybrid power system allow us to achieve the passages we're planning from Europe to the Arctic Circle as well as long ocean passages around the world? We examine our power usage from past voyages made on previous boats and talk to the crew of S/V Delos about their experiences with electric cooking.
Delos Propane Video • Hello LITHIUM, Goodbye...
00:00 Introduction - Hybrid Energy Requirements for a Cruising Sailboat
01:18 Energy Requirements for Electric Cooking
03:30 Energy Requirements for Propulsion
06:10 Regeneration
06:39 Energy Requirements for Water Heating
07:47 Energy Requirements for Air Conditioning
09:26 Energy Requirements for a Watermaker
10:22 Energy Requirements for Cabin Heating
12:42 Energy Requirements for Caribbean Cruising
13:54 Sail with us in the British Virgin Islands (Feb./Mar. 2023)
14:40 Energy Requirements for an Atlantic Crossing to the Caribbean
15:20 Energy Requirements for Cruising Norway and the Arctic
16:18 Conclusion
16:39 Next Time - MetsTrade Marine Equipment Trade Show and Sailing RUclipsrs Visit
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Sheryl and Paul
I would approach the electricity requirements of a yacht in the following manner:
A- Broad categories of electricity usage on a yacht:
1- Lighting, fans, and communications gear: I think these can be easily supplied from solar panels and from wind turbines at night. Except for the doldrums, you should have wind/breeze on an ocean/coastline almost all the time.
2- Heating and cooling/refrigeration: The most efficient way to do this might be via heat-pumps, some of which even work in sub-zero temperatures(but you could still have problems in deep Arctic or the Antarctic). You might still need backup diesel/conduction or electric/convection heaters.
These days, there are solar panels that you can even walk over, so those should take care of even heating and refrigeration needs, and if the chamber is well-insulated, you could retain the energy provided during the day through the night.
A very large wind-turbine would be a hassle, unless some anchorages don't provide shore power.
If you're under sail, then regenerative electric power from the propeller could even take care of this without requiring batteries for back up, so you don't need to store energy for voyages. You can continue to make and consume energy under voyage without storage, provided the drive is large enough for those needs.
The yacht's ballast would be in the keel, so that is a problem, otherwise, you can directly store energy from any source, as heat by heating water or sand, but unless the keel is very well insulated, this might not work, so you'd lose it to the ambient ocean
The greatest amount of electricity in air conditioning and refrigeration is consumed by the compressor, which heats the Freon, ammonia or other gas, so instead of using a reciprocating or a rotary compressor, if you have oil or water at very high temperature, you could directly use that heat without converting it into electricity, so you'll need electricity for just blowing the fan(which needs very small quantities of electricity that any other source can easily provide).
Fresnel solar-thermal solutions can directly heat water to 500 degree Celsius( for steam generation to run a turbine) by focusing the Sun's light on a tank of water. Running a turbine would be very impractical on cloudy days or in rough seas, where it would be impossible to keep the mirrors focused on the tank, but could perhaps heat oil or water at lower temperature for heating and cooling systems, still unpractical on rough seas and cloudy days.
Hybrid solar-thermal solutions can directly heat water for bathing and heating, but not for steam generation. If you have good insulation to retain this heat, you could even use it for heating and air conditioning, but the the micro-piping inside the solar-thermal panels wouldn't be practical if you're walking over those parts of the yacht.
3- Propulsion: Solar and wind Turbine electricity will never be enough for propulsion of a sufficiently useful duration, so when you don't have wind for your sails, the best option would be to use either a diesel engine or a hydrogen or ammonia fuel cell or internal combustion engine. They have internal combustion engines that run on ammonia, but those aren't very efficient, yet. Ammonia is much safer than hydrogen, which is very volatile, but since you'd also have regenerative power, while under sail, the best option would be to generate hydrogen/ammonia from seawater and store it for a fuel cell for propulsive and other needs.
I don't like batteries, except for backup systems, like the communications and navigation gear, which need very small banks.
Being an engineer it will be great to see your real life results to the planned estimates. Your videos have great information at a good pace.
I have enjoyed your productions from the start, that tells you that I’m not a kid.
That said I have considered you guys the benchmark for information that is reliable and well researched.
I now have 33,000 NM under my keels ( catamaran) and always watch your productions right to the end.
No clickbait and a huge amount of respect for the time taken to produce your channel.
I had a RUclips channel for 5 years and Covid was to much for me to carry on with it.
Currently in Sydney Australia anchored in a safe Harbour with 30 knots.
All is well and thanks you for your informational video ( I’m an electrician)
Cheers Scott and Kat
S/V MUSKOKA
Is your channel still available? Would love to check it out.
Good video. I like how thorough you have been assessing your energy balance. Concur with the hybrid setup. It allows to go full electric when circumstances allow, but provide the diesel backup when they don't. Plus the additional redundancy in propulsion (sail/diesel/electric) which increases safety. Stepping away from propane is a good idea; use widely available diesel instead that can be bunkered quayside, free up space by eliminating a propane locker (another safety benefit), and reducing the amount of moisture in your cabin from burning the fuel (significant in cold climates where you may want to keep ventilating cold air to a minimum). Believe you 're the fifth sailing channel that's going hybrid for their new boat, Graeme's going to be busy.
I agree with your choice of not going electric only. For my wife and I safety is first. If diesel means getting ahead of a storm or arriving to an unknown anchorage or marina before dark, or giving us options in the event of a serious rig problem, we’ll take it. We have our 2nd boat build underway and have made some different choices this go-round. When we commissioned our first boat, a new 2018 48ft monohull, we specified a generator and typical lead acid batteries. The generator had to be used for washing clothes, making water, and at times, charging the batteries (we had no AC) when no shore power was available. When we brought the boat from Sweden to the Chesapeake in 2019, we were advised to not use water maker in the bay so our generator saw even less use.
This time around we have downsized to a 45ft monohull and opted out of the generator, opting instead for a system of almost 1,000ah of lithium for the house, and two high output alternators on the engine, and some solar. No water maker but have added AC for those “special” occasions. For water in the Bahamas we will purchase a portable water maker.
Considerations: the cost of a high Kw generator offset the batteries and removes the maintenance of same. Also we are notfull-time cruisers, so our choices might very well be different if we were living aboard. We take delivery in June of next year (Sweden) and it will be interesting to follow you and compare notes 😊 Thanks for a great series and inspiration.
I would exchange the central diesel heater with a Refleks stove. This oven doesn't need power only diesel and they are common in Scandinavia because of reliability. Some of them coming with a copper pipe which can be used to build a central heating.
Great choice for cooler climates!
Best combined with warm water provided for radiators around the boat and warm water tank and a stove top to get the chance for some cooking as well.
It's good that somebody understands the difference between energy (KWH) and current (Amps)
Leo from Tally Ho I believe installed a Beta hybrid. It's untested but I believe he has an episode describing it's values.
Yes, we've been following Leo from Tally Ho with regards to the hybrid system he is installing. Great videos and always informative. 👍🏻
That was based on experience by someone who had a hybrid beta and sailed it a good while cross atlantic. There was an article published on that, prompting Leo to contact that skipper directly. Think the fact that he could drink two large mugs of tea every half hour on regen power may have swung it.
@@DistantShoresTV sq ses sqqq
Quality episode with very helpful data. Thanks!
I was investigating hybrid propulsion a few years ago. We're in a catamaran and the best solution I came up with was a single hybrid diesel and an all electric side. With that you could have the option of running all electric, diesel only which is then a big generator. With regeneration and plenty of solar I figured that was the only way to still travel as we do with diesel only. We do start the engines to make time and the thought of being out of power at sea or at anchor is, I feel, unacceptable and unsafe.
I have a friend whose 60' wooden sailboat has two engines. One large one for normal use and a small one which he uses to aid maneuverability.
I mention this because I wonder if a similar setup might be feasible on your boat. A. Single hybrid and offset a second electric motor. You would then have the benefits I mentioned above and the added maneuverability.
Will definitely start seeing more monohulls with two electric motors. You have redundancy, twice the regen and great maneuverability. No more bow thrusters needed. In some cases a second motor will be less expensive than a bow thruster.
Fantastic video. Technical details presented with complete clarity. You obviously have a real command of the subject.
Paul and Cheryl, fantastic break down on power uses per day and methods of making said power. 10 golden stars for certain. Thanks Jim Rodgers
Happy New Year to you both from Victoria BC. Thank you for taking time to bring all of us along. Like Leo’s video I am amazed at the regeneration from the prop. Like you, I started sailing with my father in the late 70’s with none of these issues but still enjoyed the adventures. That being said, all the new equipment is fabulous and makes a safe comfortable time on the ocean or land.
Hi! I’m gonna put electric propulsion to SeaCamel with probably smallish DC-diesel generator and heater for colder climates. Electric propulsion is fast and easy to adjust and makes the regen possible. Also it can be used for light wind sailing to gain that extra knot with very little power. I’ve had smallish electric sailboat for four summers now here on the lake and it’s just awesome.
The need of power really depends the speed you’re looking for. Even big boat will move 2-3 knots with really low power that can be gained mostly from decent solar array. Thinking of those calm sunny days. But there should be enough juice to get yourself out from tight situation of course.
One thing for lowering the energy consumption would be to install couple of solar heat collectors for hot water. Harvesting only heat is pretty easy and efficient and would remove quite big portion electric consumption from the equations.
Also for AC I think I’m gonna explore possibilities of using passive evaporation techniques utilizing seawater.
Consider using a marine heat pump for heating and cooling both air and water. This is similar to a ground source heat pump on land, but uses a thermal plate or seawater exchange for heat source and sink. As on land they can be 300 to 500% energy efficient in heating mode since they can transfer a lot more heat energy than the electrical energy they use.
Beautiful boat. Great, informative videos. Thanks
Great video, nice to see the clearly explained kWh in/out.
Glad it was helpful!
Great video. Well explained. It seems a lot of sailing channels are moving to hybrid drive. Happy New Years Paul and Sheryl 🥂🍾🇨🇦
Still catching up. Love the detail you have shared with us.👍⛵️
I agree with you 💯 👍 👌.
Awesome video, full of good ℹ 💁♀️ . Thank you for sharing and wishing you all very happy new year 🎉 🎊🎁✨🍾✌💝🍀
Great information! Here I've been pondering a change from FLA to AGM and an externally regulated alternator. Now that doesn't seem complicated at all ! Looking forward to another good year of your informative and entertaining videos. Thanks.
Thanks @Rboyd
I am not sure you will be better of with AGM. We did not find them better than Flooded-Lead-Acid batteries. The only big improvement was the lack of gassing...
Another good one with great realistic power usages. If only we all were this conscious ashore....
Looking forward to watching the progress.
I aim to get a new to me boat soon and hybrid drive and all electric cooking is my aim.
Solar cookers are great too.
Great video again. Best wishes and safe sailing from 'the rudderless crew" (ARC+ 2015)
Another fantastic video! A late Happy New Year!
Absolutely would go for hybrid!
Happy new year Archibald!
Paul and Sheryl, Excellent video!! You hit a home run dealing with two topics at once: energy consumption budgeting and energy production and storage alternatives. I particularly appreciated the comparison of stored energy between propane, diesel and electricity. I don't believe I've seen it presented so clearly before. Again, great job and thanks! On a completely unrelated topic, this Wednesday, Sally and I are headed to Marsh Harbour in the Abacos to pick up a Mooring 4200 for a two week charter in the Exumas. Both our sons and their families, including two three-year-olds, will be joining us for the charter. We won't be able to make it as far south as Georgetown or Long Island on this trip, but it will certainly bring back many fond memories of our sail aboard with the two of you.
Thanks for sharing. Happy new year!
You are welcome! Happy new year to you too!
I love your series. It is both quite informative as feeding our dream to once also build a aluminium yacht. We live in the Netherlands and the Orion 49 is also very high on our shortlist when the money train would arrive. We just came back of a short cruise to Terschelling, where we spend X-mas and New-Years eve with family and friends. Socius the first Orion 49 build was only moored a couple of yards from our boat. I made some nice pictures of her, she is beautiful.
Awesome, and informative video!
Great show :-)
Thanks 4 sharing
Jay
Thanks Jay! Glad you enjoyed it
I would say your numbers are about right.
You may have overestimated how much the regen slows the boat.
Ive been running 2 ocean volt servo prop 15s for nearly 18months on a 46foot cat with a serial hybrid config.
I have more solar.. 3.2kw peak.
For me regen slows me by about 0.25knot.
I need to be moving at 5knots for regen to be usefull.
I just did my anual service on the generator.. 34h was my anual run time for this year cruising Alaska USA.
I spent 21days at marinas where I crammed up the batteries. Got a few odd comments comming in to 'refule' and taking 8h at 220vac.
Heat is reverse cycle heat pump and cooking is all electric.
Heading south for warmth now.
The two change i made to my setup are.
1) a full rated auto switching shore power transformer.
I tend to go to marinas to recharge more that i did before.
2) I added some software that auto engages the regen at 5.5knots and stops it at 5knots.
Scavaging power in those gusts made a lot of difference. When your in marginal conditions on AP you dont necessarily remember to switch on regen.
Such an awesome video! Really appreciate you breaking down your expectations and approaches. I just really never see anybody else doing that, and it's been so frustrating playing guesswork as I've outfitted my own liveabord with electric drives and infrastructure.
I'm also installing around 30-40kWh of batteries, with what I'm calling a hybrid system as well. I've gone with a US motors, 350 HP equivalent 24 volt electric engine, a Cummins MDKDK 9kw generator, about 2 kWh in solar panels. I'm also going to be installing a redundant generator but I haven't figured out what I'm going to use for the space I have.
Based on what I've seen in your video, we're coming up with some pretty similar numbers and ranges. I suspect it's because we are doing this around the same time, with a similar style of ship. This is exciting because I've mostly been trying to reinterpret results that friends have had on their catamarans.
The technology is always advancing, and I have friends with electric drives they installed around 2019/2020, that already seem extremely outdated and inefficient.
Thankfully, their early adoption helped me learn a lot. You guys, and Sailing Uma have also been so helpful. 🙏
Most of my tests have me running between 5 and 6 knots, at about 400w as well. I have an experienced skipper helping me with changing my prop to hopefully get better speeds at 800w. I really only got up to about 7.5 last time I tested that. Still learning over here.✌️
At first I really only anticipated using the electric drive to get in and out of marinas or to get ahead of weather, but spending more time with friends who are using electric hybrid approaches already, I see them motor sailing significantly more than just sailing alone. Even with only about 10 kWh in batteries.
Some people just want to have completely silent motoring, and they can pull it off for a few hours. I just don't find that as appealing, and with the quality of sound reinforcement now, I can barely hear the generator anyway so I'm fine running in hybrid mode, to get the most out of all the regen and propulsion.
I'm a novice at sailing with only a few years under my belt, but I very much want to become a proficient and efficient sailor. I look at the hybrid electric drive as a supplement. I'm looking to do longer sailing trips instead of just puttering around from island to island in the Caribbean.l
I gotta tell you, I really appreciate you guys creating practical breakdowns of what your expectations are on sailing across the Atlantic, through the Med, and colder waters. I also very much appreciate you breaking down what your expectations are for air conditioning use. I don't suspect I will be spending much time in Northern / colder waters; my wife would hang me from the mast. I'm really hoping to use the HVAC efficiently in warmer waters (currently in California) because my wife wants us to spend most of our time in the Mediterranean. I think with similar numbers to yours, I'll be able to meet our needs.
Anecdotally, everyone I've seen also loses about 1 knot when using regen mode. I'm about to spend a few weeks on a 50 ft monohull that uses regen props they tow behind them, instead of being attached to their main prop. I'm very curious to see how these work. I don't have any of the range anxiety or concerns I had when I first started planning this approach, because I still have a large fuel tank.
I'm not sure what your results have been but I spent a lot of time trying to find a way to use modern wind turbines on a boat, with little success. I have yet to find any that provide meaningful power generation that are also rugged enough for marine use. Every turbine that told me it could generate 400w in 15mph winds, couldn't squeeze out more than 100w in a hurricane. Subsequently, I have abandoned this approach in favor of installing significantly more solar, which gets cheaper by the day.
Seeing you guys undertake the hybridization approach is very encouraging because I believe it is the best approach for the next few years. Obviously solar and battery technology keeps advancing by leaps and bounds, but I just don't want to wait another 5 years for what I think will be a truly useful 100% electric drive.
I also want to have the added safety and security of a very reliable set of redundant generators. I'm just not yet convinced 100% electric is viable.
I am so looking forward to seeing you guys advance further with this. It's such an exciting time. Thank you again ✌️
Really good video! I learned a lot about the process of energy budgeting. WRT heating: I loved the Espar hydronic on our 38’ mono on Vancouver Island. It absolutely MADE the winter or wet weather sailing trips great. BUT It would quit working sometimes (blowing vast quantities of smoke then shutting itself off) and the diagnostic computer would call for replacement of the combustion can when all the culprit was actually the igniter.
In the interest of power budgeting and especially reliability, I second the suggestion for a serious look at a diesel drip heater, as a stand alone or backup. They can have quirks too: on a spring sail from Halifax to St Johns, the skipper couldn’t get it to light. It would ignite with an explosive bang which was most unacceptable. It seems that with chimney mounted on the center line of the boat, the heater was always required to exhaust into the high-pressure zone on the windward side of the mainsail. Placing the chimney ahead of the mast might have corrected the issue, but it’s something best planned early in the build.
Great videos. Thank you
Great Video as always. I'm able to receive such great knologe from your videos. It's very appreciated. Myself I like diesel. Cheap & reliable. I like simple systems I can trust. Lithium bank is great for the capacity, but for my bugit I would never get rid of old faithful. Watching all of Dan and Kika's Vidios, a lot of their misrible days were trying to get around. I'm loving the Orion 49's re-gen system. I think that is a perfect happy medium. Thank you once again for such great videos.
Merry New years , strong winds and flat sea's for your 2023 adventures and enterprises
Thanks Joris! Seasons greetings to you also!
I think full electric makes more sense for smaller sailboats (like Uma), more so for even smaller boats, particularly when prepared to let the weather dictate (and revise) schedules.
A big problem in many parts of the world when sailing offshore in light winds is the seastate.
Particularly in larger oceans, it is very challenging to keep the sails full, which is essential to speed and (physical and auditory) comfort .
It is also essential to keeping the sails in good shape: flapping and slatting sails wear out the stitching in short order.
Here are some options i've found helpful: heeling the boat to leeward with water ballast tanks, reducing righting moment if a suitable lifting keel permits it (eg dagger style) and/or consider hoisting ballast aloft, boom- and guy-out a "fish" (low drag flopper stopper, designed for mobile use) to leeward; swap to a light-air main of spinnaker cloth with ultralight full length battens and an elastic preventer, and use a small amount of electric boost to maintain speed through brief lulls, or to rebuild speed and apparent wind after long ones.
A hull with a narrow waterline beam will do much better at partially isolating the rig from the seastate under rolling conditions, with the help of these techniques. Experimenting with the "radius of gyration" using vertically movable ballast can also help to change the resonant period of rolling so it does not coincide with the athwartships component of the wave period.
I make a practice of always sailing, provided the average speed can be kept above around two knots. If not, on a long passage, I will drift or (if the wind is variable and disruptive) heave to, as I do not enjoy motoring for long periods, nor does my energy or financial budget permit it. Some of the methods above can be useful, while hove to, to prevent slatting. There are five or six different options I'm aware of for heaving to, one of which will usually work.
The scenario you described is perfect for electric propulsion. On a boat there size, 500 watts can take you from bobbing around at two knots to making 3+ knots and keeping your sails full.
@@sunlightconversions828 Agree motorsailing with an electric motor powered from sunlight works and is desirable, but I think a boat that size and mass would require more than 500 Watts to do 3 knots. That said, the amount of power needed to go a few knots is surprisingly small.
@@LoanwordEggcorn Would take more than 500 watts on motor alone for sure. The comment was about motor sailing. On very light wind days it, a tiny amount of power makes a huge difference. It keeps your sails full and helps maintain course.
@@sunlightconversions828 We 100% agree about the concept, but maybe not about the amount of power. Still, completely workable with enough solar, which many boats these days have.
Very interesting video - Happy New Year as well !
Many thanks Brian!
The numbers you have come up with for electrical
Use age. I would double them. And yes definitely a
Hybrid system. All the best….
Hybrid Marine from the UK is a good source for hybrids with regeneration. Best Wishes From the South of Chile
Thanks guys, very interesting, well researched video
Glad you enjoyed it!
Interesting video thanks.
There is many upsides to go full electric, weight, through wholes, silence, space, service etc. look at sailing Uma.
It consumes way less at lower speed, at 3-4 knots you can go on for hours.
It would be better to use a fisher panda generator when you need the extra W and heat.
Up here in the north you can find power outlet everywhere, there is lots of marinas also.
Don’t forget the insulating, good both in summer and winter.
Good luck and happy new year.
Great info as always.
Glad it was helpful!
Hi Sheryl & Paul, thank you both for sharing your journey with everyone, your passion and energy is truly inspiring. I am very grateful for the content you are sharing, the construction of the new Distant Shores IV, Orion 49 has been eye opening. The timing could not have been better as my wife and I are looking to embark on a similar journey. We are particularly interested in implementing a parallel hybrid marine diesel and we were wondering if you had refined your thoughts on what you will be going with? Thank you both again for all you share, fair winds, Shane & Mel
one major benefit with an air heater is that you get a lot of dry air, compared to heating via water or elctricity. I live onboard a 40 ft boat, and when at anchor i use the diesel heater, which uses around 5 liters per day a 0 celsius, and using 30 watts, without the need to run a demunityfyer. Also today you can get a combi diesel heater, making hot air and water at the same time.
Also reagaring the solar setup, remember that in the north the days are longer doing the summer, here in DK its only dark for around 4-6 hours, so the solar system is giving a lot. But a key point is that you can change the angle of the setup doing the day, so that you can optimise the output. That should give plenty of power to run a water heater with a 1-2kw system doing summertime.
Excellent video as always… We are building our Irwin 38 with a hybrid electric plan of generator and electric drives with electric systems and using “Uma” as primary example… just think “Two Step” with regeneration as the primary generator and sails are the primary drive… Your best boat still in our opinion, we like to say, BFT (built for two) as Two step got you there safely and if need be, Sheryl could handle her safely in all situations in the unlikely case of Paul’s incapacitation… we are also Inspired by “How to SAIL oceans” and the Pardey’s… We aren’t looking for the glitz of every mod-con available to mankind… I still put my beer in a net and hang it in the water… The Northwest passage is a noble endeavor and all, but we aren’t 30… (I love the Netherlands)❤
Thanks very much Alberto! Good luck with your Irwin 38 Hybrid. There is a lot to be said for the smaller simpler solution! When do you plan to launch ?
@@DistantShoresTV We are in the yard, having moved onto the Tennessee River from Kemah, TX. I am just about to purchase our systems but having some supplier issues… to answer your question, I hope to be in the water this year and fully rigged on the coast by the 2024 season… Structure is done, paint is on, now comes insulation and the fun part, systems…!
Hi Guys great video on the hybrid electrical system. After living and working in the Caribbean for many years now I have gotten to see and be part of the installation of many hybrid systems from a residential and commercial point of view, some very interesting stuff happening out there. Anyway there are many controllers and inverters on the market that can now handle multiple input of power at the same time. For example the system you have talked about in your video is a two input system which will work great. But you can add a third where two or more inputs can charge the batteries banks at the same time. So you talked about solar and diesel generation as your two inputs, if you added a wind turbine you might not need to use the your diesel engine for generation. The wind turbine can be engaged when sailing or at anchor and provide power at the same time as your solar system. Hope this helps and maybe gives you another option to look at. If you would like to discuss this further please feel free to contact me. Cheer Brad
Great informative content!
We have a fully electric Fountaine Pajot Athena including electric motors for propulsion. I agree with your numbers. We use about 1.5 Kw for cooking and about 450 w for making 45 liters of water with our Echotec Water maker. Our total consumption for the house is about 4.5 kw per day. We have a small two gallon hot water tank that we use primarily for dishes. We might have a hot shower just once a week but we are in the tropics so a cool shower is normally just fine.
We have 20kw of Lithium battery but they only cost us about $6000 including shipping etc. We can motor about 15 miles maximum on those batteries and so just perfect for most day to day sailing like getting in and out of the harbor or marina and perhaps a little motor sailing if the wind dies. For any serious motoring requirements we depend on a generator to produce 6kw/hr. This will let us motor indefinitely at just over 5 knots. We have 2700w of solar and so we can produce from 9 - 13 kw of electricity per day if it is sunny and as low as 3 kw if it is rainy. Since our batteries of 20 kw and our requirements are about 4.5 kw we can go for a few days of rain with no problems. If we need more power we can run the generator for an hour and produce 6kw to fill in the gaps.
I love sailing with the electric motors since there is this silent and seamless transition from lifting the anchor and getting out to sea and sailing and then ultimately coming into a new anchorage. I love that reliability and minimal maintenance the motors require (about 30 minutes) every time we haul the boat out to change the oil in the sail drive unit. Last season we went 52 days without running the generator. I hope to do the same this year. I do like to run the generator once a week for maybe 30 minutes only to keep the generator healthy and ready.
I'm happy getting the range I need when I need it and I love that when we have lots of power I can motor sail, run the AC, have a hot shower and it is all run on completely renewable, free energy. I'm liking it.
One last thing i'd like to call out - It would be awesome if you could collaborate and chat with Matt and Janneke over at The Duracell Project - on their last boat Matt installed a hybrid electric system designed by him if i recall correctly. Met them while they were cruising - lovely couple who has an awesome project on goign and Matt & Janneke might be able to provide some good real work experiences!
I motor when I want to without any guilt at all. A hybrid wing motor makes perfect sense to me.
In 1979 I worked for Durbec yachts where we built a world 🌎 cruiser with a excellent generator that could power the electric wing motor. We didn’t have the battery technology in those days. 😊
mounting a 353 superwind turbine on the top of the main mast provides a lot of power......i have seen it done on a pair of froggy cruising yachts (mum and dad on one and son and wife on the other) that stopped into Dunedin New Zealand a few years back...... they each had 900 of solar on a rear arch and the mast top turbine and got most of their power from the turbine......had no problems with noise or anything like that.....with the turbine being so high up meant it was in useful wind even when there was very little at deck level, particularly noticeable when at anchor.
Wonderful analysis of your electrical needs and requirements! As for me, I have no diesel on my sailboat. I could probably go all electric but my 4 hp Evinrude Yachtwin two cycle gasoline outboard works well on my 20 foot pocket yacht. Last year I never started the motor. All wind power on my local lakes. : - )
Happy New Year, and God Bless!
Happy new year and fair winds to you as well Derk!!
My boat design incorporates a lot of batteries/electricity etc. 140KW SLA, 40KW lithium, inverters. Its a 25 metre boat, using the SLA for ballast 3000kg. the system is charged by 15-20KW of solar (not a sail boat), wind turbine, buoyancy generator, exercise equipment and also the alternators. You have a keel, so most ballast will be inside, but if you can use lead batteries for ballast. My wind drive is a hydrogen filled kite for gentle propulsion, hydrogen made from electrolysis. Design also has two 1200KW jet drives with two 200kw jet or propeller for slower cruise/manoeuvring with electric motor assist. Mine is aluminium hull also, the best choice for many reasons. I am incorporating a little greenhouse for fresh greens. I was looking at two 10 kw electric motors for drives, but they would only be for short use, or to reduce fuel consumption if plenty of sun is out. Electric drive for continuous use is not a good design, even lithium batteries do not like to go from 0-100% charge regularly. Also lithium has some dangers to it, if the batteries became submerged, the safety circuitry would not stop them igniting from short circuit causing a fire you can not extinguish. Heaps of options for charging your battery system though. Biggest mistake is people choose a system to small and it fails after a few years. As for stove, induction is the most efficient, but keep a simple gas bottle and resistive element stove handy also.
I can tell from experience that the Sebastopol works well we had 22 degrees inside at 20 minus outside our 50 ft. Good choice.
But since we live in the tropics… with airco on 24/7😅
Thanks for this super nice episode. A very educational “lecture” that makes people think.
In the question “ when will you motor ….” Obviously this depends where you sail.
We agreed to stop sailing if wind is above force 6 and make way to shelter. This as we sail at the Dutch waters and the North Sea. These water can be unpredictable and very uncomfortable. Obviously we train to sail rough waters and hard wind just to prepare. In most cases the engine is running too if we are near the coast and shelter.
At no wind conditions we use the engine at low setting to move.
Running the engine towards the shelter makes E power, hot water truster and anchor winch power.
Really good tempo on this video, thanks for controlling the delivery and organising it so well
I think you have a great system planned, 30kwh of battery sounds great, I think alot of implementations skimp a little bit on the storage which can lead to a bit too much active power management, having the buffer will let you use the flexible power generation options you have in a more comfortable and stress free way.
Glad you enjoyed it! Yes the cost of battery has come down but is still pretty expensive for a big bank so I think many people skimp a bit - perhaps hoping to increase capacity later...
Wife and I live aboard our 42 footer in the PNW - on a mooring ball and at anchor 100% of the time - winter and summer. We have two 350w solar panels on an atlantic tower arch on the stern of the boat. As PNW does not generate a lot of solar in winter, we have a small portable generator that us used to push into our Firefly batteries(440ah total). Winter time I run our batteries down to about 11.8-11.6v before I start up the generator(in the mornings - about day 3 from last run time). Every 3rd time we draw down to this level, the generator + the engine is used to charge batteries at a higher rate during bulk phase to help keep the batteries healthy. We are 100% reliant on propane during this season in the PNW.
However during late spring, summer and early fall - we are completely capable of running of solar and we rarely see 12.2v. During this time of year we break out our single burner counter top induction unit and we cook 100% of our meals on this. We are not talking about a can of soup or just boiling water for ramen - this is a full on meal that we cook - 3 meals atleast a day. I work from home and love to cook. I'm sure people are going to give me a hard time about how i'm "treating" my batteries - but I'll say in the 3 years of doing this on these batteries we have not seeing any sort of loss of capacity. The induction is completely reliable and is our "backup" if our propane system goes down or like last summer - could not find a single person to fill our bottles in 2 months. We were in an area with limited service and they had struggled at getting a new supply.
If i hadn't just bought my Firefly batteries 3 years ago, i would very much be upgrading to lithium and to an induction stove & oven. So far it has worked incredibly well for me - I am hoping that my batteries burn out at the 5 year mark so i can replace them and switch over to lithium - i think at that time I will probably install a small genset that I build myself(DC genset)
I want to add that we also do have a 5 gallon hot water heater that is rigged to our inverter - In summer its wonderful being able to look at our battery SOC and see that we are in float by 11am AFTER cooking breakfast on our induction stove (we also have a freezer and refer unit that runs 24/7 in summer) - and by 11am-12pm we are able to kick the breaker on for the water heater and start dumping power to our hot water tank. After an hour we can shut it down, give a break on the batteries and repeat after about an hour of recharge and by then we've got more than enough hot water for the remaining day(shower/cleaning)
Good video. I saw that some people are adding spare alternator belts to their prop shafts and tying them out of the way for the future.
Check out the hybrid HPV water cooled panels ..to preheat your water..
Hull Insulation works in both extremes and good passive ventilation saves lots of energy..
There are new technologies occurring daily...one is wave powered desalination buoys.
At higher latitude you can use a secondary solar array like the Flynn sail. Where the panels can be pitched to the optimum performance.
The heat pump concept works extremely well with water rather than air and the French have developed a high temperature heat pump using Ultrasound..
I genuinely don't think there are many already around, but- most of the tech needed has been around for almost 15 years (except Integral alternator). It's impressive to see how many of us want it right now
Excellent presentation. I think you may have over estimated your northern trip demand. If your running cabin heat then you should be able to reduce draw for heating water.
Paul and Cheryl, we have spent our second summer moving slowly to electric cooking. I agree with Delos's numbers, we need about 1.6kW but only had 300w of solar, so needed to top up with the engine every 3 days or so. That's fine, we are coast sailing a 31ft yacht. However, November was spent upgrading to 600w of solar which in England during the summer should be more than sufficient for power the yacht and an electric galley. But, we are also minimise the energy we use. So whilst we use a 2Kw kettle at home, on board the little 0.8L 1 kW kettle half full will make to large mugs of tea slightly quicker than using gas. The toaster is the same and lets be honest yacht gas grills are rubbish at making toast. The induction hob is also frugal but the real killer appliance is a Remoska. If you can cook something in an oven then it can be cooked in a Remoska and at 580Wh very frugal. We did the full Christmas dinner this year in the Remoska as an experiment. cooking Lemon drizzle cake is super easy and even something simple like a pizza cooks well.
We have replaced the old cooker with just a gas hob and grill just in case it all goes pear shaped but we sail during the English winter. Solar doesn't work at all then, but we benefit during long summer days.
Were are we going next? probably an air fryer, they cook so quickly power isn't an issue even on a small yacht. However, our biggest problem is lots of European yachts have 450mm wide cookers and there isn't a sensible double induction hob that will fit and be gimballed in this space. What a shame. Still we really enjoy cooking on solar.
Thanks @Pete9501 ! I hadn't heard of a Remoska but we did just purchase an "Instant Pot" to test it out. For the galley we will have space for the GN-Espace induction hob but their smaller one is 500mm wide. We had GN-Espace gas unit on the last boat and it was amazing!! Even did great making toast since they have a system that has a large grilling surface over to whole top of the oven compartment!
@@DistantShoresTV Independently from sailing I came across the Insta-Pot as an affordable option for cooking souis vide which it is fantastic for (beef checks OMG) and once I had it in a house with a full oven and hob I found I used it a lot for stews as it’s one pot system you can brown everything in the pot then add water and switch it to it meat / pressure cook setting and in 40 minutes your eating what once took 3/4 hours. I’m looking at buying a mid sized monohull cruiser circa 2000 and going fully electric with an oceanvolt system most likely it’s regenerate is impressive and the 0.5 knot speed reduction you’ve referred to doesn’t apply especially if your mid 40ft. We need to stop using hydrocarbons and you are roll models that can afford a custom aluminium yacht. My challenge to you is to inspire us all and get rid of the internal combustion engine although what you learn will influence countless others
I love the boat and wow all that experience over all those years, amazing you are. God bless you. Please listen to what I am saying below. Power Queen for batteries. Victron for inverters and if you have a lot on your boat and doing many things 2-3k inverters will not handle it you need 2 5k inverters at 48V. save yourself the headaches.
I think I'm going to eventually do something like this, but I'm waiting for a free-piston hybrid car range extender to get another 30-40% efficiency and go pure electric drive. Also, in the US, if the boat is purely "wind powered" one can 6-pack charter with no license, so if a wind generator and regenerative is all you normally use that should work. A short pair of heavy "emergency jumpers" could be used between the range extender and the battery pack while cruising under diesel or petrol for extended periods without paying guests which should still keep her under that exemption.
Our Fontaine Pajot had propane when we bought it. Even just cruising the US east coast and Bahamas we discovered it was more difficult to find refill options than we were interested in dealing with. We installed 1200A of 12V lithium house batteries, 2100w solar, and had two 3000w inverters. We replaced the propane oven with a convection microwave oven and the stove with an induction stove. This freed up counter space from a countertop microwave as well.
We also had three air conditioners on board and often ran the master cabin unit in the evening to bring cabin temperature and humidity down.
The water heater was a 900w 10G unit and ran it from the inverter as well.
We did not have a generator and only used main engine alternators for house battery charging a few hours in 4 years of operation.
Thanks @PaulSmyers
I appreciate the real-world numbers especially on the A/C and cooking and remarkable that you also ran the water heater. I'm jealous of the 2100w of solar :-)
Which inverters did you use? I guess they were paralleled when you needed full power? I assume you could switch one off much of the time to save wastage of running one large unit.
Cheers! Paul
@@DistantShoresTV The boat had a Magnum 2812 (I guess it was actually 2800 watts) and I added a Victron 3000. I just manually segregated the loads. One inverter in each hull. If we had kept it another season I was going to swap the original Magnum for a matching Victron and wire them for load sharing.
On our mythical future boat I intend to make it 48vDC house batteries so all the big cables can be less big. I've already seen manufacturers are making 48v accessories like windlass and winches. Then a simple dc-dc converter can take care of the rest of the stuff like lights and navigation.
Now where did I leave my winning lottery ticket ... :D
Thank so much. Clear calculations and technical specs. And a sympathic moderation. Wish you and your team on board always safe travel and a HNY2023
Happy New Year to you also Helmut! Glad you liked the show!
Just doing a dump (+ translation to English) of what i'm planning for a 43ft sailing cruiser. Maybe something is usable, or might spark an idea.
For a less pricey option you could check prismatic 280Ah or 320Ah (3.2v nominal) lifepo4 cells. ~7.5kWh costs ~$1k. You would have to manufacture your own casing, preferably watertight, for them but would allow for any size battery you might like and basically any voltage and in whatever layout that fits the boat best.
Planning for a 32s2p setup (102v nominal & 57kWh) myself and that will run me in total around $12k if i do most of the work myself. Recommended discharge rate is 0.5C for max longevity (2p = 0.5*280*102v*2 = 28.5kW) but can safely be used at 1C (57kW in my setup) at the expense of lifespan (6000 cycles @ 0.5C until it reaches 80% of manufactured capacity)
BMS is not required but balancing is. A low-current BMS can be used for balancing and to control a master-relay (no usage-current passes thru the BMS) for a simple high/low voltage cutoff.
For me it's mainly to allow motoring for almost a day in canals and such (calculated to around 2kW for 3knots on flat water) and reduce the frequency of having to fire up the generator when there is no sun. This setup will outlast the boat if i charge the batteries 0 to 100% every 5 days. ( 6000*5/365 = 82 years :)
Engines will be dual-electric motors (15kW continuous each) that drives a single shaft/prop via belts and each engine will has it's own controller. This in combination with the two battery strings then allows for some really nice redundancy if anything should fail when underway.
If a 48v setup is wanted you could do a 16s4p instead. Same power-draw and kWh as specified above would apply, but it may be an issue to get high-powered engines at 48v.
Great to involve us but I’d imagine your main decisions are done. However if not here ya go.
1. Go design and install a two (2)motor hybrid drive for redundancy and that would allow you to charge a 2 bank system at the same time.
2. Deisel heating ductwork doesn’t always need to be round so it’s possible to lay flat and be designed into cabinet soffits or behind light rails if you choose the Espar type system again. Your aluminum boat will be a big heat sync for the Northern cooler waters and leave you with more heating days needed than a fiberglass boat would comparably.
3. Cooling can be an induction cooling system through your ductwork via a hull cooling system while in the hot zones. The coils for it would need to be in or near the keel to have the effect I’ve used before on a similar system. I may add on the warm days or nights you would would be better to also have a cool air draw and warm air vent to the exterior mainly in the cabin and sleeping quarters.
4. Power in general at rest with lithium-ion 200 amp hour batteries.
5. Insulation the hull and headboard big time with rigid board vacuumed to the primed and painted raw sections of the hull and or deck, preferably with one that won’t mildew up.
6. Solar (Just an idea) to add to the one on the aft awning/roof
Can you develop a solar array that unfolds from the life-line stations of the new boat with the newer semi-ridged panels? Or possibly a fold out system that would be self powered and rotate to the sun for better efficiency to be used while underway or at Anchor?
Cheers you all..
Hi there. I see you have a lot of comments. Your reasoning around the pv production of kWh in the north, I believe has an error. In the summer there are much more sunlight in the north than in the Med or the Caribbean. Lower air temperature also enhance the efficiency. Solar panels will also improve significantly in the years to come. So basically I think you will use less diesel for power production. In the summer. Not in the winter. Diesel-electric propulsion using large azipods is frequent in the cruise-industry, so getting a good diesel-generator able to work 24-7 in combination with a system similar to what Dan and Kike experienced in the Salona 465E, will perhaps be even more energy efficient. You have chosen a very interesting design and in the years to come there will be lots of new ways to optimise the use of electric propulsion. Greetings from Oslo, Norway
I really liked your explanation of energy comparisons thanks for that. I am wondering if you could use a windmill-like generator for replenishing your batteries?
The key point of hybrid is virtually free energy lifestyle with regen and diesel back up when required plus no need for a separate generator
We have gone electric cooking and HW gen as first step with Yanmar hybrid on the horizon as ph 2. Costs need to come down to make it viable.
Great video, thanks! I wonder did you ever consider intalling heat pump for heating, perhaps even cooling?
The same question occurred to me. It seems like a heat pump would be more efficient. Especially considering you can use the ocean for your heat source/ heat sink. It would have the added benefit of dehumidifying the boat. Thoughts?
Thank you for a very informative episode! I am not a cruising sailor but I have several decades of experience designing and using electric propulsion out of rechargeable batteries.
I was wondering if you did a formal analysis of the consequences of single point failures, meaning how do you cope with the failure of any single component in the whole system under the worst realistic environmental conditions. I can imagine one reasonable additional backup system could be an additional small portable generator that could deliver about 2kW into your shore power inlet.
Generally speaking I think on a comfortable cruising sailboat hybrid propulsion is a good idea if it is implemented smartly.
The hybrid system they are showing schematically is a parallel hybrid which can drive the prop directly via either Diesel or electric motor (which appears to be clutched to the prop shaft). It should be highly reliable and not have the overall system single points of failure of a serial hybrid. Most commercially available marine hybrids appear to be parallel.
Most road vehicle hybrids are parallel since it's more efficient for both motors to be able to turn the wheels directly, in addition to being more reliable since in principle either motor can turn the wheels.
On the ocean, the reliability of parallel arguably matters more than efficiency, but a parallel gets both maximum reliability and efficiency.
The schematic shows the Diesel being able to turn the motor as a generator, but the prop would still turn when doing so. Presumably one could feather the prop when doing so for minumal net thrust.
That said, many electric boats have a lot of solar (and are sailed in sunny places like the tropics), and the generator is seldom used in practice.
IMO, the best system would be for an all electric boat with a second high output (>150A) 24V alternator on the main engine for charging batteries. I would go with 8 24V/200A LiFePO4 batteries and as many solar panels as you can fit, 2400W of panels should work. The battery bank would be 39 kWh which should be plenty of reserve power for everything electric on the boat. A couple of 3 kW inverters would be ideal for the water maker and for other 120V AC loads. I would definitely go with a hydronic diesel heater for hot water and cabin heat that is also plumbed to the main engine. A hybrid drive is nice but to me, it's only useful for short periods of propulsion in the harbor. The regeneration while sailing doesn't give you a lot of power. I much prefer solar power over hydro-generation. If you need extra energy for a long trip, carry extra fuel in diesel cans. It's hard to beat the energy density of diesel fuel for heat and hot water. I do get that solar at high latitudes isn't very good, that's why I would recommend extra diesel fuel. FWIW, I'm no expert but that's how I see things. I love your project and follow every episode. Thanks for sharing your adventure.
Your website is not updated with the current dates for the sail-away. Great job and enjoy your videos!
5:20 Один литр дизельного топлива не может быть равен 3,5 кВт. Дизельное топливо и сжиженный газ почти равны по удельной теплоте сгорания. Если вы, дизельное топливо сжигаете в генераторе и расчет идет от полученной электрической энергию на выходе из генератора, то расчет не корректен тоже. Расход топлива составит (в хорошем генераторе, не одно цилиндровый...) 271 грамм -1 квт.ч. Один литр при 20 градусах весит 840 грамм. Итого 3,09 кВт.
А так... мне ваша новая лодка нравится)))
Excellent and well thought out analysis from the cruising legends. Humbly if I were planning on heading north perhaps I might add a refleks type drip heater with a low amp draw water pump added to the radiator water circuit. Thanks for taking the time to help us all
Refleks / Wallis hob - heater for the WIN!
For big battery banks you should build your own pack. It's more energy dense. I helped a friend convert to all electric propulsion on a 41' with 47Kwh bank for $7k.
WARNING: FROM THE DARK SIDE. Thanks for your in-depth examination of the power requirements of your lives afloat. Even on our small trawler, energy is a major consideration. We have learned that, for us, the best formula for extensively cruising (2 to 4 months/year) in the Pacific Norhwest is to equip and manage our trawler (Iron Wind) in the proven manner of a cruising sailboat. That is especially the case with electricity. Ours is basically a sailor's powerboat, reflecting our attitudes and practices derived from our sailing (and powering) esperiences over the years.
We greatly appreciate your experience and ideas about power sourcing and the major electricity demands you need to consider. A topic you didn't cover in this video is how, given that you are building new, you will set up, equip, and manage your background electricity demand as well as the major intermittent loads: basically the electricity demands of simply being. PLEASE CONSIDER DOING A SEPARATE VIDEO ON THAT TOPIIC. Your ideas for minimizing your background power demands on the new Distant Shores would be instructive.
We have set up our systems to be as efficient as possible, although we are motor cruising rather than coastal sailiing or voyaging. Our power demands and resources naturally differ from yours. We haul a total of 1275 hours of AGM 12v power around on our little boat, which provides a solid foundation for our power needs when we are away from the dock. We are often on anchor for up to a week, usually in some small cove in coastal British Columbia. The 165A alternator on our trusty Lehman-Ford main engine (Bob) is our sole electricity source when away from shore power. So careful management of electricity is a priority for us too, even though we are a power boat. And, over days on anchor, much of that demand is background rather than intermittent. It also drives our quipment choices. For example, since we only produce electricity from the main engine, we are still have a propane galley stove and have Espar forced-air diesel heating.
We have done virtually everything we can to reduce our background energy demand when we aren't underway or on shore power. For example, every lamp in the boat, save one I can't part with for reading, is LED. A major upgrade minimizes engine time for boosting the batteries when on anchor, by DOWN-SIZING our primary water heater to what our uses really require. We installed tandem water heating, with a 4-gallon primary tank (first in line for hot water demand) which is backstopped by a 17 gallon secondary heater. If we are underway, all that water is getting heated. But, if we are on anchor, the big advantage now is that we don't have to run the main engine for 2 or 3 hours to heat the water in the 17 gallon tank just to have a shower or do the dishes. Those purposes don't require 17 gallons: 4 gallons of water is plenty for those purposes. That translates to much less engine time. (The inflow water to the smaller primary tank is from the 17 gallon tank, which gets at least a little heat when we run the main engine on anchor.) Only running the engine for an hour when at anchor rather than 2 or 3 hours just to have a hot shower or do the dishes is a big deal over the course of several months of off-grid cruising. It also makes us less irritating to the sailors anchored near us. (The powerboaters don't care - they are all running their gensets. LOL)
Anyway, please consider telling us how you are setting up the systems on your new boat, especially if minimizing your electricity demand is a consideration in those decisions.
As I stated above; there is NO real world substitute for the power produced from diesel.
Warped to a harbor wall with snow covering the decks, dozing in the glow of the Refleks back-boiler.
Thanks for the suggestions Hector! Also for the detailed observations on your trawler.
I am indeed planning a series of additional videos on the power system management. I know from previous boats that seemingly small parasitic loads such as inverters, chargers etc can add quite a lot to unnecessary power waste!
Thank you. Happy New Year.
Think the cruising type sailors way forward with a specific all electric hybrid system. Huge battery packs as the center of the setup. Solar and regenerative (prop and wind) sources being a big part of the mix. The fossil sources genset or main engine alternator. Most likely with electrical propeller drives; ie decoupled from the main engines.
I thought it would be a neat idea to have ventalated bench seat couchons, similar to having a new vehicle that has ventilated seats. Probably take more power than a fan.. but way less than A.C. Also, it would help the seat couchons breathe, helping prevent mold.
Great to see the boat is coming along, and a really interesting video…
I am wondering why you haven’t (?) considered wind generators to add another method of charging the batteries…
I am still not convinced that electric propulsion is mature enough for any serious sailing, especially for extended periods in high latitudes. The energy efficiency of diesel and the reliability of diesel engines are hard to beat. I would also be interested in seeing data on the actual benefits of any electrical propulsion system when the environmental effects of mining lithium and the short lifespan of these batteries are taken into account.
Hi Mike. I agree diesel reliability is hard to beat. Our parallel hybrid system is basically a standard diesel installation with the hybrid bolted on the back. So we basically have the advantages of a conventional diesel plus option to regenerate and generate , and still use the E-drive unit when practical.
We did try wind power many yers ago on our first boat but didn't get on with both noise and safety. We're sticking with solar then there won't be any shading from the wind rig.
Kind regards Paul
the hybrid propulsion sounds very interesting! Can the shaft be de-coupled from the propeller to use the diesel engine purely as a generator, for example at anchor when there isn't enough solar power coming in?
I would like to say that this video sparked quite a discussion between Socks and me (it even involved a "robust" whiteboard session). We have been looking at converting from our Yanmar 85 to a 35KW electric with a battery bank of substantial size, and a 48 volt generator and solar for generation (See SY Elysium). The propulsion system that you showed excited Socks more than I thought possible. We would both love more information about the specs of the build so we can compare.
Check out also the Beta Marine hybrid drive HH is using.
Do it already! We spoke last spring. Let me know if you need some more convincing.
@@sunlightconversions828 I always do double the research on things like this. If you still have my number give me a shout so we can talk about some options.
Parallel hybrid is probably the best solution for propulsion right now, especially for global cruising. It offers the most reliability via redundancy, and the most efficiency due to being able to drive the propeller directly by either diesel or electric motor.
Thanks for a great summary of typical electrical loads and an energy budget for them.
Also liked the different energy budgets for different cruises.
My key takeaway is to get more solar, but I'm also thinking in terms of catamarans, which have a lot more roof space for solar.
Electricity is the most diverse energy source since it can come from solar, windmill, regeneration, shore power, generator, engine alternator, parallel or serial hybrid motor, etc. In many ways it's the best energy solution for a boat.
For heating and cooling both air and water, please consider a marine heat pump. This is similar to a ground source heat pump on land, but exchanges heat with seawater, either by circulating seawater (an open loop system) or a thermal plate in contact with seawater (closed loop). These systems can be several hundred percent energy efficient when pulling heat from seawater. As on land, these are one of the best and most ecological ways to heat and cool air and water. (Canadians on land should be pretty familiar with ground source heat pumps, sometimes incorrectly called geothermal energy, which more usually refers to much deeper and hotter heat sources in the Earth's crust.)
One source for marine heat pumps is Kensa in England, and they have done marine applications.
I think some of the mainstream marine air conditioning companies also have marine heat pumps.
Thanks for your thoughtful responses on this forum @LoanwordEggcorn. I do agree with your idea of more solar if possible. We are travelling to Netherlands in a few weeks and will be discussing final thoughts for deck layout. We'll try to find more room for solar!
@@DistantShoresTV Thank you for superb videos with very thoughtful and accurate content. As you can see, the topic of boat electrification is very popular, and rightly so.
Being able to essentially motor on wind via batteries, electric propulsion and regeneration is an ideal synergy for a sailboat, and much better for the environment due to needing Diesel much less often.
Thank you for doing that and showing how it can be done, and showing some of the details. More detail may help more people with the electrification process, so I'm looking forward to future videos, and so it seems are many others.
I think i prefer serial hybrid, due to reduced complexity, and ideally elimination of a gear box. Downside is it's less efficient and you have less power to play with.
@@N330AA A serial hybrid can be simpler and can work for coastal cruising and day sailing, but also introduces multiple single points of failure so is inherently less reliable than a parallel hybrid.
For long distance cruising a parallel hybrid is currently a better solution. I mention more of the reasons above.
@@LoanwordEggcorn Yes that's a good point.
I think the hybrid drivetrain is very neat, but trying to go fully electric is not feasible for propulsion. Even if you had 5KW worth of solar panels which you cannot possibly have in a reasonably sized monohull, it may just be overcast esp. when you are trying to avoid a coming storm.
So it's great to be able to avoid spending diesel when conditions allow it, as a second fallback from wind itself, but diesel is just too good to completely avoid in a yacht, and that's not even considering things like webasto heating in colder weather and water makers.
EXACTLY!
Regeneration has to be done with dedicated devices giving by far better wattage with less drag than done by the propulsion system.
Two devices with 0.5 KW should be great for this job.
3 advices for better eficiency:
1- (this a defenetly a must) use in combinaton of fotovoltaic solar panels, you must use 1 square meter of solar panels for water heating like modern houses have. almost 90% eficiency compared with realistic 15% of fotovoltaic to heat water... and much cheaper for same power ratting
2- use in combination with warm water cilinder acumulator an instant water heater like bosch TR 1000. this saves a lot of energy since energy to heat the water because is not wasted in acumulation, is just used for necessary instant water 99% eficiency. and very cheap and compact
3- instead of air condition, to cool down around 10ºC compared to outside , use an humidifier like : Viesa Holiday IIIS (this is not for sailboats, just example. for sailboat should beat custom made for especific dimensions) . It uses very low power at 12V and a few liter of water. simples and eficient ...
There are a few more ways to improve efficiency , but it needs longer explanations. not suitable for coment section.
Congratulations for this video, very useful for sailing comunity
Great video
What about refrigeration?
HH Catamarans has a hybrid power system in their new 44. Antares Catamarans also has hybrid power systems. Both have large solar arrays. 1:11
Thanks for your thoughtful comments Mr Ben.
Yes I have been looking at both HH And Antares since they are using a similar parallel hybrid design. And of course as catamarans they have plenty of space to put solar panels on.
What about reflex heater or another diesel heater. They are very popular in cold climates. Even on the famous Pelagic boats the skipper Skip Novak dont want another system. They are reliable. The bigger ones of reflex diesel heaters have even a connection so u can connect it to water radiador/ heat exchanger. They need to be placed correctly because of the ventilation and they need a chimney but this is on aluminium boats no problem to install it. Then u can use special small ventilator and place it on top of the stove. The uprising warm air will be turning the propellers to warm up the saloon faster. No electricity needed. Works great on boats in norway
Utilisation of regeneration sounds like a really great idea. However, reliance on a functioning propeller becomes critical. Do you worry about the prop getting jammed and the consequences?
Two engines, two props, and two hybrid electric motors are the way to go. That way you have a backup if anything fails.
Sailing Uma shows you can do an electric only. But they do have a portable generator. I do agree going hybrid is safer right now. Lets see what you choose for your hybrid. I am early into this right now. I ama solar battery guru.
I am now mostly 'off-grid' solar in my land home. I monitor every watt, as it comes and goes. The numbers for a family of 4 with no frugal sailing energy needs are quite different (e.g. we have 27kw solar, & 164kwh lithium and a separate solar hot water system because we don't live in the tropics, have a greenhouse with pumps, etc), but one thing I would strongly consider in your budgets is that there are inefficiencies in the systems. So making 1kwh of energy from photo voltaic panels needs to be stored in lithium and that process is not 100% efficient, so you might only get 950-980W. Then to get that energy out of the lithium there are more losses - especially if converting over to AC. I have a reasonably efficient setup with short wires and big copper wires, yet I only get about 90% when comparing measured inputs and outputs.
I'd also point out the need for redundancy. Sometimes its a nice day and you get more sun than you need and the batteries can't take any more. Then a storm comes in and it's penny pinching where all that 'average sun' doesn't matter because the bank is dry after yesterday drawdown + overnight. Larger battery banks can help here, but as you note - this is very expensive. So my prediction is that you will be running your diesel more than you project. Make sure you have large enough diesel tanks, and in a pinch can run the entire system off the gen-set.
Thanks M&M for your detailed notes. So great to be able to have so much solar with your setup. I do agree with you we will have many days where we can't make do without a popup from the generator. The boat is specced with 700l of diesel (roughly what we had in the last boat) so we will be fine. My hope is that it will last a fair bit longer than without the regeneration.
@@DistantShoresTV With a diversity of energy sources, including solar and regeneration, in addition to using the diesel as a generator, you should have much less need to actually use the diesel than ever before, not only for propulsion, but also for house loads, heating, etc.
Hi,
Happy new year 2023 to come to both of you.
We are also Canadian sailors, and man a Boréal 47.2 named Fabule.
I have the same conclusion as you that cooking a meal requires about 1kWh of energy on Fabule. So 1.5 kWh is a good number that I too use.
But I wonder about hybrid propulsion, as you will need significant battery banks, as well as diesel for autonomy.
What is the mass penalty that an hybrid propulsion imposes on your boat compared to a conventional diesel approach please?
Hope to see you on the sea.
Yan
Fantastic break down of the uses and generation options. I would love to have electric / hybrid drive on our HR 31 Monsun, even for very limited local Scandinavian cruising. Being able to do moter assist to gain 5-10 degrees to the wind without the noise of running the engine ... However the budget for an installation like that can't be justified on our boat - it would cost more than what we paid for it and the hulls is not compatible with folding prop. Perhaps if we upgrade to something closer to 40 ft. :-)
@mufflejoy Yes go for the 40 footer :-)
We have an induction cooktop and small convection "air frier" oven and we don't see a reason to go back to propane. For emergencies - where maybe we could experience a power issue- we still have our propane grill/BBQ but have not had to resort to that. We also have a "george foreman"- type griddle, an Instapot, a breadmaker (make bread about once a week), a coffee machine, and our hot water heater runs off the inverter so we don't need to run a generator on the engines on days we want a hot shower. Our bank is only 10,152 Wh (our average discharge is 4,980 Wh a day) but its enough to get us through with our 2000 W of solar. If we are presented the opportunity to expand our lithium bank we will probably do that so we can get through several days of no sun because we generally must run the 5Kw genny on cloudy days. I still think that wind generators have a place on boats and we think that with lithium the value proposition is higher because it can take every bit juice and at night it would top out our batteries in the trades. We may add a D400.
Thanks @JostVanDykeFan for the details! Specific numbers like yours make it easier for us to plan! I assume you have catamaran since you have 2000W of solar power. I'd love to hear later if you like your wind generator. We tried one years ago but it was noisy and didn't produce very much. Perhaps they're worth it now... Fair Winds! Paul
Happy New Year to all.
Same to you Carl!
With hybrid you get the best of both worlds