Mormonism Grooms Compliance | Mormonism LIVE! 087
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- Today we dive deep into the idea that Mormonism grooms compliance. We start by showing it is the baseline of our theology and belief system. We show how it is reinforced by our stories and songs, show all the pervasive ways it shows up in our faith system. And even how the Leaders impose such on each other. And then discuss how unhealthy such is.
A.) Obedience is the First Law of Heaven or the ground zero of theology/commandments
B.) The constant teaching that answering NO is not allowed and how it is a “Thought Stopping Technique”
C.) We make heroes out of those who proceed with the horrific and label people bad or sinful who might object out of conscience
E.) Leadership teach each other to be compliant
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“Submissive women enable unhealthy men to continue to be unhealthy”
Good quote from Bill
Honestly this quote applies to all kinds of social situations. It applies to abusive women as well. It's a great point on Bill's part
It's like the other side of "well-behaved women rarely make history"
This episode could have been entitled:
“Tell me you are in a cult, without telling me you are in a cult..”
Mavin!!! you rocked the misogyny dogma and compliance documentation. This could be a youtube of its own. This peter priesthood control & dominance impacts more than 1/2 the church by the minority men. Well done, Mavin. Thank you.
Love you Maven! Keep reminding the men in the room to stop cutting you off!
I'm only half an hour in, but I had to make this comment--whenever I was a child, and I talked about what I wanted to be when I grew up, my mom would always without fail, asked how I'd be able to balance that job with having kids. My mom was always critical of the women at church who worked (if their husbands were making enough to support them).
Your comment connects me to the soundbite with Dehlin where maybe she was trying to lower your expectations so that you could tolerate being a Mormon woman. Sad that women have to help their daughters see that there is a low ceiling for Mormon women and one must get ready for the disappointment.
Yes! Whenever I would talk about going on a mission or college or travel, I'd be interrupted at some point to be asked, "but what about marriage?" Or "don't be so focused on those other things that you miss out on a wonderful guy!"
Sheesh. Even a kid's dream has to be "corrected" to constantly tell her she has to have kids.
@@Tartarsauce84 I'm so sorry 😢
As a never-mo, i always got the message that i was *required* to do both. You have to get the best education and job you can AND cook and clean and raise a family and please a husband and not stab him when he treats you like a maid and a nanny and sex bot ... No to all of that, thanks.
Statement of the show: Bill Reel ", Every member of the church is being played". Absolutely!
Anyone who develops a very rudimentary level of "street smarts" can see how these apostles of fraud are playing everyone. The basic elements of every con and scam are all there. Unfortunately, a lot of people are conditioned and groomed into it from an early age or from situations of vulnerability, and they haven't yet developed the healthy level of cynicism and skepticism necessary to recognize a scam for what it is, even when they are right in the middle of being scammed and scammed hard.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N I'm a convert. The information you need to make an informed decision is kept from you and by the time you find out enough to be concerned it is difficult to unpick
Thankfully the accessibility of information via social media is undermining the church's iindoctrination strategy as well as other societal changes.
“Peter and the apostles answered, ‘We must obey God rather than men.’” -Acts 5:29
A covenant is a type of contract - 8 year olds can’t sign contracts. It violates informed consent as well even if a kid could make a decision to turn over 10% of their income for life.
Most of the kids really wouldn't even understand the words of the baptism prayer. As for the part about "keep the commandments" in the prayer, the kids would generally just understand it (to the extent they understand it at all) to refer to the basic stuff they learn in Primary. The usual "be nice" stuff. Tell the truth. Don't be mean. They would never think that it could be twisted into a lifetime commitment to obey the dictates of a bunch of strange men in suits who work out of an office building in SLC. Maybe at one point they would have received a lesson about tithing, where a teacher gives them 10 jelly beans and then asks them if they would give one of those jelly beans to Jesus if Jesus asked.
Of course, the guys in suits also hope that nobody will notice that there actually is ZERO evidence that they have any authority at all to interpret for other people what "keep the commandments" means (or even any proof that the baptism prayer is anything but man-made wording). No doubt, they do try to support their authority claims with the "heads I win, tails you lose" Holy Ghost formula. If you get good feelings, that's the Holy Ghost telling you the church leaders are the real deal. If you get bad feelings that means that you're being acted upon by evil spirits, so....that also means, in a reverse engineering kind of way, that the church leaders are the real deal. I was going to say "you can't make this stuff up"....but they actually made this stuff up.
I’m soooo disturbed by Bednars talk. I listened to this 3 weeks ago and it has lived rent free in my head!!
Great episode. Really resonated with me, the whole time. All the callers, everything. Thank you.
It's funny that the first thing he mentions when "breaking a covenant" when we misuse out agency is about not paying tithing. Church of latter day corporatism...
Also, if the baptized person was 8 (or under 18) when they made the covenant, it can't be legally binding. They didn't even know long division yet.
For real it shows us what the church's priority actually is. They just cover everything up with religious lingo
Do you covenant to PAY TITHING when you’re baptized? The temple rites demand EVERYTHING so tithing would be covered but not at baptism that I recall.
It’s funny he’s talking about tithing while he gets a stipend from the church which money comes from the members.
So glad I interpreted the stories in Nephi as it is perfectly okay and our responsibility to question church leadership when it doesn’t feel right by taking it to the Lord and then following the direction of God even when it counter dictated the church.
Hey, Hey,! Be fair! The Church has made progress, We use to keep our women barefoot and pregnant, now we keep them pregnant and in sensible shoes. We are progressing! Thank you very much!
Interesting what Bill Reel said about the interaction between the Bednars. She always looks distressed. There’s definitely something off about their relationship.
I love Maven’s input in this discussion, especially regarding women’s position in the church. Early on in my adult years when I listened to general conference it always bothered me when “The Brethren” said things like “We love our Sisters. We honor them, etc. . .”, but I didn’t really know why. I finally had a light bulb moment when I realized that it was blatant condescension.
Here’s my last point, again thanks to Bill Reel. I never understood why the conference talks given by our Women’s Leaders bugged me so much. Now I realize that it’s because they use a “Primary” voice! It’s just another form of condescension.
Yeah and their talks are almost never about anything introspective or interesting, it's almost always about encouraging women to be overly submissive. I can't stand that. However, I also don't like how women are being taught that being cooperative is the same as being submissive. They're different. The problem with the church is that they want you to be submissive. But granted, they want everyone to be obedient and submissive
The primary voice really grates on me.😬
Hypocrisy alert -- Not one member of the current First Presidency ever served a mission.
Love this episode. Truth stands and shines a flashlight on LDS methodology. Questions made up and the points don't matter. Good one!
Great show. Fascinating topic to discuss. The LDS Mormon Church does the same thing that cults, abusive parents, and any unhealthy group does: violate personal or individual boundaries. That is something I realized after leaving the church. The church leaders place themselves as God, and that is the key to controlling the members. I know that certain apologists and or believing members would argue against this, but this episode does a great job examining all the aspects of how the LDS Mormon Church is a very unhealthy institution.
I really liked maven talking about setting boundaries and saying no in intimate situations. I know exactly where she’s coming from. I’m also grateful that I was never put in a position like that, but I imagine my life would’ve played out differently if I would have been put in a situation like that because I was never taught it was OK to say no and set boundaries. I am sad to say, though that I was in a very unhealthy relationship at 21 and I went to the bishops office to try and find my now ex-husband a new place to live and instead we walked out engaged because the bishop convinced me that the spirit of contention was disappear, if we weren’t living together. I had no clue how to navigate that conversation. I tried my best to say no and re-explain and in the end we ended up married and it was a horrible 17 years so again, love your videos. maven was a great asset to this conversation.💙❤️
Your caller Cynthia. Oh man... my story. 28 yes. of marriage. Luckily school worked out for me and I am financially stable.
I kept thinking something was wrong with me since being a housewife with 5 kids I was unhappy. Oh.....my cheating ex was coddled by priesthood leaders and I was told I have to stay with him and my wanting a divorce shows I can't forgive It was abusive. My ward threw me away after I separated and divorced. Remember...why was my life exploding if I had kept all my covenants. It was a nightmare. .
I remember a woman in my stake who is in single adults. She opened up to me and told her life story. She had done all the right things the church told women to do. She went to BYU, married a RM, had seven kids. So after being a homemaker for over 20 years and passing on a career, the husband cheated and left her for a woman half the wife's age. So here she is with seven kids still at home, no recent work experience, no recent postsecondary education or trade to fall back on, and left in bad straights financially. Her whole life fell apart.
@@scottbrandon6244 I can feel her pain. Luckily school for me worked. But.... my ward treated me and my daughter like lepers. She no longer could play with her friends. They passed over both of us in callings. My ex was called to a bishopric after he received his restoration of blessings.
Our happiness has never mattered much. I'm sorry you weren't through all that. I hope you feel so much lighter now after losing the dead weight of a cheating husband!
@@amazinmaven for sure. Crazy part...I reconnected with the guy I didn't marry because he wasn't a mormon. We've been together 11 years. Not perfect with all the baggage we both collected after 30 years apart but it's nice.
The ex husband pain partly is the whole doormat feeling that comes along with P=hood leaders telling me horrible stuff. What a relief to be out from underneath it all.
P.S. I was surprised with you so much younger than me, how similar your experience is to us "mature" ladies. It has not improved for women.
@@karencross3815 Yay! A happy ending! ❤
It makes me so mad that the church tricks so many people 😒 I wish in had woken up years ago.
Amazing episode! Seen this my entire life! Been out 7 yrs and never looked back!
Thanks guys. A really interesting episode. How many times have we seen women appologing all the time because they are doing something that is against the norm. I always used to argue at church against women giving up careers for marriage. That was in 1980s and 1990s.
Jordan Peterson talks about this in the workplace. Women are expected to have a high degree of agreeableness. They otherwise get passed up for promotion and salary increases. They also get labelled as "Karen" or other terms if thy are not compliant. In the church I have seen varying levels of feminism. The career woman versus homemaker is still a contentious issue in the church. More women have careers today. But there are still women who stay at home to raise children. I haven't heard a GA talk about women in the home since 2002. They now expect a woman will work outside the home. So when you took flack back in the 1980s and 1990s it does not surprise me. At BYU back in the 1990s all they talked about was eternal marriage to the single students, especially the RMs.
I'm glad someone was already doing it then!
Absolutely loving this video. The part where Jon Jen and. Maven are talking in that clip about not going to college. It resonated with me so much. I was kind of always sort of expected to go to college but nobody prepared me for it. I honest to God when I graduated high school I seriously thought you just applied to college like you did high school you know you fill out the paperwork like registration you send a transcript and voilà, your in I had no idea about qualifications or essays or volunteer work or money or loans or housing or GPA or SAT test none of it, anything like that. I just kind of figured you just went just like going from middle school to high school. I remember discussing my stepfather and he looked at me like I was an idiot and then turn around and just walked off. It was very much emphasized that I would become a mother and wife, and there was no greater calling, but then when college was brought up, I was made to feel like the moron because I hadn’t been prepared for it. Great video great content thank you for all your time effort and energy that was putting into this
Elder: "if you wanna see what happens to covenant breakers...I don't wanna scare you, hehehe" Oh yes he does. Definitely. It's a threat.
4 1/2 minutes in, I wanna comment this
My mom showed me an interesting way of looking at the condition for going to outer darkness: assuming it really is apostasy that gets you to Mormon hell, unless you have walked and talked with Jesus and felt the imprints from the nails and thrust your hand into his side etc, and still deny him and God and everything God has done, you're not going to Mormon hell.
I love this interpretation of this and I'm gonna keep it!
That's mine too. Apostasizing isn't enough in my book. You have to see Jesus at least.
Bednar's "representative agency" notion is a preposterous proposition from top to bottom. What he wants is more deference, respect and obedience to him and the other men in suits who conduct their business out of an office building in SLC. But he wants people to mistakenly believe that obedience to him and his fellow "apostles" (and whatever policy du jour the LDS church happens to be espousing at the moment) is always the same thing as being a "representative of Jesus"...and I guess for faithful Mormons that also somehow means that you're breaking your covenants and failing to represent Jesus if you have a cup of weak, unsweetened green tea, but you're representing Jesus competently if you eat a dozen cheeseburgers everyday and wash them down with half a gallon of carbonated sugar water. Apparently, when you were baptized, you "covenanted" not to drink green tea. But cheeseburgers and carbonated sugar water were not anywhere in the fine print regarding "commandments". So you have some choice there. (One cheeseburger or five? It's up to you. Freedom! But a thimble of green tea? That's breaking a covenant, baby!) The whole deranged belief system is riddled with such nonsensical "commandment" versus "permissible personal decision making" scenarios. BTW, according to these afterlife insurance salesmen masquerading as "apostles" your covenants include wearing official Jesus-approved underwear. (Of course, Jesus actually never said anything about underwear, but the "apostles" don't want you to know that.)
Representative agency is between a principal and a representative appointed by that principal. If Jesus wants to deputize individuals to be his personal representatives acting according to his instructions and being authorized to make certain decisions on his behalf, he can do what other people do. He can create a binding power of attorney (or visit his law firm...McConkie something...and get them to draft a copy for him), name the appropriate individual, specify the scope of representation of his representative, get it notarized and we're all set for a "representative agency" situation.
But this nonsense of a bunch of corporate-type guys in suits going around claiming to be "special representatives" of Jesus without having anything at all in writing to validate their claims? No video. No notarized documents. Not even an e-mail from Jesus's official e-mail account. And then people are supposed to think that these clowns are in a position to act as intermediaries to tell other people what Jesus wants them to do? Heck, they trace their authority claims back to a clown prophet who claimed that the entire church worshiped Adam and that Adam was the only god to be worshiped by them. And he was formally sustained in General Conferences by the entire generation of "priesthood" holders who were alive then, including at General Conferences where he preached the Adam is God doctrine. The current collection of clowns derive all of their "authority" from that generation of clowns. Jesus was nowhere to be seen in any of it. So we have a case of "representative agency" without any evidence that the named principal (Jesus) ever authorized any of the "covenants" that comprise the so-called "covenant path" that, according to Bedknob, constitute the basis of the "representative agency".
I guess Bednar has inherited Packer's role of being the hard-a** pseudo-intellectual disciplinarian diligently stamping out independent thought and freedom to behave according to conscience (instead of mindlessly following poorly designed dogma) wherever it can be found. I'm glad I don't have to attend any meetings where he speaks. I wouldn't be able to not laugh uncontrollably. And that would create an awkward and unpleasant situation for all concerned.
You've really outdone yourself on this one, Poseidon. Bravo!
I really enjoyed this podcast. My biggest takeaway is this:
God can't make a law about something and only make it fully applicable to one group of people; if serving the Lord through a mission is a requirement because of your baptismal covenant, then EVERYONE would be held to that law not just males! Of course I don't believe anything that comes out of David Bednar's mouth. I watched the edited version of that talk last year and was blown away by the giant balls that guy has for literally changing church doctrine right before our eyes!
I was shocked when the bishop asked me if I wanted to be baptized. I was never told it was a choice, but the thing that happened when you turned 8, just like you go to young womens when you turn 12.
Darth Bednar will oversee the decline...get your popcorn ready folks :)
Great show. Great research. Great points. Loved it. Thank you for keeping me geounded and giving mw courage to stand up for TRUE agency
A year ago I did not know you folks existed. Thanks for your insight!
Tithing and the endowment are extraordinary examples of financial domination. I’m so glad to be free from their control.
I said no to baptism. I don’t remember why but I told my mom I didn’t want to be baptized. She told me I could have a party if I was.
1:03:08 "the moment they enter the waters of baptism, their agency is gone." That makes it sound like their free will was dissolved in acid or something. Sheesh.
Substitute the word "agency" with the word "soul" and that's probably closer to what's happening.
Rewatched this a year later since it popped up in my feed. Obedience absolutely is important, but it’s not the first law. The Bible very clearly states the first law is Love the Lord thy God, and the second is like unto it: Love your frigging neighbor.
Before one can obey the commandments of God, one must discern the commandments of God, and that is where the rubber meets the road with fallibility. The Church couldn’t care less about personal conscience and discernment. Compliance is what matters, and if that resonates with your conscience, what a nice extra.
The church saying to substitute their instructions for your own thoughts is absolutely ridiculous.
RFM was great at Sunstone. I was honored to help in the queens on top card trick. Great show and lots of laughs!
Who would WANT this God??????
I guess mostly the guys who get the most status and money out of pretending to be this god's spokesmen. The other people are just fear-motivated...usually due to being told stories about this god being real and a harsh punisher of disobedience. This god is a combination of goblin and Santa Claus. If you do what his special representatives tell you to do, he will reward you (usually after you die) for your obedience. He's got a list and he's checking it to see whether you've been naughty or nice. If you've been nice, you get to meet Santa Claus...I mean God...in heaven and you'll get all kinds of goodies. If you've been naughty...well...just be afraid! Be very afraid!
Of course, nobody ever meets this God. They just have to believe the special spokesmen for God. And you know they are God's special spokesmen because they told you they are. And they decide what "naughty" means and what "nice" means.
Unfortunately, the whole afterlife insurance business is built on the understanding that masses of humanity are super gullible. Gullibility is a renewable resource.
"we have enough scholarship, we need more subservience"
As a fellow Washingtonian, I wanted to say WELCOME BAAAACK!
I get such a "creeper" vibe from Bednar. I feel for his wife. She looks "beat down" to me. I imagine before and on the way to any church event, he is telling her how to speak (but not too much), how to look, how to act, etc. She looks SO miserable to me.
Poor Susan looks like she's dealing with decades of CPTSD from being married to him.
@@scandia67 When I was growing up, in all the Mormon families I knew the husbands and wives all had pretty decent relationships. I never saw any husbands bossing their wives around. If anything, it was often the other way around in a good-natured way. So when I would hear people going on about patriarchy and domineering men, I thought it must be some kind of exaggeration. But I got a rude awakening when I once visited the home of a CES employee (a seminary teacher). They had recently adopted a child from overseas and I was there to help translate some things for her. The whole time I was there, the guy was bossing his wife around so rudely that I was actually shocked. And the wife basically had the same look and demeanor of Susan. I had not witnessed anything like that before. I've since seen a few other examples, so I know that it can be a real thing. Sadly, Bednar reminds me so much of that abusive guy that it's remarkable. That was the first thing that came to my mind previously when I watched videos of Bednar in action. My first thought was: "Hey, Bednar reminds me of that creepy CES guy!"
If anyone ever talked down to me the way Bednar did to these youth, I would get up and walk out. If there any LDS youth reading this please don't subject yourself to this kind of abuse. Can you honestly imagine Jesus saying these kinds of things?
Yes. Both the content and the delivery style are obnoxious. Basically, he's saying: "You guys are too stupid to have figured out what I'm going to tell you now and are maybe even too stupid and immature to take it well. But I'm so smart that I've known it all along and now I'm going to explain it in simple baby words for you. You. Don't. Have. Any. Choice." Of course him pretending to be smart doesn't make him smart. But it's really obnoxious when somebody who thinks that they're the smartest person in the room is speaking in condescending tones to everyone around them. Elder Bedbug is in serious competition with Boyd K. Packer for the title of most condescending, arrogant and always wrong General Authority. A lot of others are in the running too. But Bedbug is definitely one of the strongest contenders for the crown.
GREAT episode!!!!
I just think President Nelson looks scary...
At 28:34. I have seen this problem of women and lack of education or career backfire in cases of divorce or widowhood. Becoming a widow unexpectedly at age 40 can have devastating effects on the family. Women can find themselves without recent job experience, credentials, degrees, trades, or references to go easily into the workplace. The LDS culture will tell women to be stay-at-home moms, but what happens if that world falls apart with death of a spouse?
So many in Christian faiths carry and promote this same "stay home, raise kids and support your husband". Many women left in horrible situations when their husband die or leave them, or when their husband exert power and manipulate through finances.
Missions at 1:23:23. I never figured out why men are supposed to serve missions and yet women are allowed to treat serving as a decision.
@1:58:57 I feel like you were trying to say "send us a recurring donut 🍩"
Who says God is checking our checklists? No one speaks for God!!!!
What Maven discussed about women who don't conform is why I get grumpy when I see the laurel thatcher Ulrich quote everywhere about 'well behaved women.' Because the irony is that LTU *must* be a well behaved woman wo still be in good standing with the church. 😏
The condescending way elder Bernard speaks to these s Spanish speaking members and scares them into compliance is just chilling and how a cultists would speak to members into compliance and sister Bebnard acts like an abused wife.
Whatever you think of Bruce McConkie, his final testimony at General Conference in 1985 is a sincere statement of trust in, and gratitude for, the Lord Jesus Christ, his atonement and the cleansing from sin by His Blood. LDS people would do well if that is the focus of their hope in their final days.
Bruce at least had some zing and zest to him! All the apostles nowadays are terrified to say anything at all. It's so boring
@@jonbaker476 I admire the man, even if I disagreed with some of the tenets of LDS doctrine. There was a real Christian faith in there, especially at the last. That gives me hope for my LDS friends.
I’m supposing heavenly father up in his celestial kingdom has no use for his wayward children after testing their loyalty and finding them so disappointing. No point visiting. Shunning goes on even in the afterlife.
Also I would assume hitler would choose the church in the afterlife just like all the other dead people who didn’t have the “privilege“ of receiving the gospel while living. 💩
Atilla the Hun, Stalin, Mussolini, Vlad the impaler, Dahmer…The list goes on and on. They ALL could be in the celestial kingdom pumping out new spirits with multiple wives.
What absurdity. 🙄
Thank you Bill and RFM for keeping it real and making it fun!
I’ll be happy joining you in outer darkness Bill when my time comes.😉
Yes. And the whole "testing" thing is just an illogical pile of steaming nonsense. According to Mormon teachings, the "test" consists of: (1) giving a case of total amnesia to the hapless soul to be tested; (2) sending the hapless soul into a world full of people claiming to speak for god, while teaching contradictory and illogical things about what "god wants"; (3) testing the hapless soul to see if they have faith that god exists, which is something that should be entirely irrelevant to anything in the spirit realm, unless god is hiding there too (so the test is basically pointless); (4) god never actually appearing directly to anyone or saying anything to anyone in any clear and unmistakable way; (5) god's representatives being a bunch of guys who are indistinguishable from run-of-the-mill business hustlers, frauds, ponzi scheme operators and insurance salesmen; and (6) the method for knowing truth being good and bad feelings, wherein good feelings about what the aforementioned bunch of guys are trying to sell you means some gas entity called the "Holy Ghost" is telling you that it's true and bad feelings means that some gas entity called "Satan" is trying to lead you away from the truth.
What a wonderful belief system!
Bednars voice is dominant, authoritarian. Not loving. I chose to serve a mission over 40 yrs ago of my own free will. I was so happy I was a girl and asked to go. I went because I loved God. I felt his love and guidance growing up. To have NO choice sounds like Satan talking.
That's what I was taught and I graduated from high school in 2002
I can remember at 8yo saying i dont want to be baptised and was told your doing it anyway
Thank you for giving time and emphasis to to the harmful ways in which women only are required to submit and conform.
Mormons are not Christians, and that is a given. However with this talk on “agency” it is clear Mormonism is much closer to Islam than any other cult , since only Islam requires submission to a higher authority, and in addition to God, Mormons are required to submit to prophetic whims.
Lowest Level of Heaven, reserved for murderers and until 1978 , black people--even the most devout LDS member.
In the LDS church women may get the get the power of the Doughnuts 🍩 someday!
I don't know if anyone goes back and reads comments on these old videos, but I would be very interested if someone could get @DanMaklelan 's input on bednar's interpretation of agency 51:36. He would have possibly worked on translating that concept for official church translations and might be able to shed some light on the meanings they used to intend by "Agency"
Those anti depressants are necessary when you are in a very controlled prison which at times activity in the church was,
An additional comment, I think baptism should be done at age 18+.
or 25 once the brain is fully developed
@@MormonDiscussion 😂. I still go to church once in a while...bleh, anyway this is one of the things I bring out from time to time and I'm serious about it. People just don't know how to respond. I love it.
@@ZachBrimhall There is no logic in it, except that the underlying tradition is that people who die without baptism can't be saved (from whatever hell they are supposed to be saved from). That's why there is infant baptism in Catholicism and other Christian offshoots. Mormons just adopted an "age of accountability" doctrine that arbitrarily selected the age of 8 as the earliest age for baptism. They also brought in the "baptism for the dead" thing to help sort out things for those who otherwise would not be "saved" due to dying without having a chance to be dunked in a Mormon jacuzzi. I guess it works out a bit better for Bednar. What he's saying about 8-year olds is ridiculous. But imagine him trying to sell that nonsense if Mormons had infant baptism. Like "when you were 3 months old, you covenanted to obey the Lord, pay tithing and serve on a mission and....blah, blah, blah." There would be a lot of angry infants...or former infants.
Star Wars isn't real now you've ruined my life
Perhaps this is unfair, but I don't trust men in suits that wear rings in addition to their wedding rings. Especially when it's bigger. 😬
It would take some explaining, but in short the LDS church was what tried to make me deny my experiences with the Holy Spirit.
That same talk at 51:58 is where the famous discussion of same sex attraction occurred. An audience member asked the question and Elder Bednar gave the response.
My almost ex-husband was told to find and marry a wife within being home from his mission before 6months went by
I need a new tattoo that says APOSTATE
Free agency at 49:34. Free agency was regularly used by GAs. It is not favored today for the reasons outlined in Bednar's talk. The church prefers agency or moral agency. I haven't seen a GA use free agency in a talk for at least ten years.
This is off of the subject mentioned but I have found the LDS people do not even know their own doctrine, even the teachers of their doctrine, they have different definitions of the birth of Christ, and also the Trinity. I do not know why they do not come out and tell the truth about their doctrine of the birth of Jesus. The historical belief is that Jesus was sired by God our Father, the literal Son of God, that God is the parent of Jesus. but then some say he was incarnated; it is very confusing. Thank you for the truth!!
So the liars go to the telestial kingdom but the liars for the Lord go to the celestial kingdom !
Bednar is such a self righteous dude! Condescending plus passive aggressive talk to scare people! If Mormon God is like that, I am better off staying away from that cult!
Catholicism and the Catholic Church are looking better and better. And Judaism even better than that. And the self-impressed and self-important Bednar is making it worse and worse for the Mormon church.
But Anglicanism must be better than Catholicism because it has 1,200 years less historical baggage. It has fewer centuries of slaughtering and persecuting others.
It is sometimes described as "Catholicism light."
Well, historically and in their most orthodox forms they're all still very rigid and basically have the same types of issues as Mormonism. Mormonism is just so much newer that the evidence of fraud and inconsistency in its history is much more abundant and easily accessed. The branches of the other religions that have largely morphed into non-demanding religions are at this point essentially functioning as social clubs that enjoy the superficial themes and trappings of religion. Religious traditions are more of a theme for costumes, decorations and theatrical rituals, while adherents of the "religion" are free to do whatever when the weekly show is over.
To a large extent, Bednar's obsession with the concept of strict covenants and obligations, as well as deference and obedience to leaders, is entirely consistent with traditional religions. (One reading of the Old Testament should be enough to prove that point.) The problem is that he's actually a leader in an obviously fake organization that has no mandate from any supernatural, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent deity. And he has every reason to know that this is the case. Plus he is contradicting teachings about "free agency" that prevailed in his organization for generations. Personally, I would apply the same criticism to other religions that seek to rigidly bind and control people and force them to follow irrational dogma, while suppressing contrary views. As for the watered-down modern versions of traditional religions, I don't have any use for them. But if some people enjoy belonging to religion-themed social clubs, that fine too.
25:30
44:00
56:06 I love how they all say no
1:00:00
1:22:22
1:32:00
Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet, don’t do a mission.
My TBM wife has a bit of awareness that her frank and direct personality would not work with a staunch Mormon husband. She's better off with this laid back culturally liberal old agnostic! 30 years getting along.
This is my first show. Interesting
What do women want? King Arthur and Sir Gawain learned seven centuries ago: SOVEREIGNTY. TO MAKE OUR OWN DECISIONS. And that hasn’t changed.
They just don't look good or inspiring...nothing but scary.
In regards to gender equality within society or within religious confines, I'm actually a bit unique in the exmo community because I actually don't think we should have true equality. I've personally found that when men and women mix together and have the exact same positions and/or roles, things tend to get pretty messy. However, I don't at all agree with how the church (for example) pretends to value women but really gives them no voice at all. To get what I mean, I'd like to bring up certain tribal techniques that have been used in the past. For example, every tribe had a chief, but many tribes in human history also had a wise woman, which basically held the same power as the chief. Both the Chief and the Wise Woman had different roles, but both were valued and both voices were heard equally. But the roles were still divided, which kept people from stepping on each other's toes. Equal status but different responsibilities.
Different "sets" of responsibilities means women typically don't get out of the house as much as the men do.
A couple of thousand square feet of space in your home doesn't compare to the square footage outside the home. The church has pushed for women to stay in the home, and when you have babies and tots, you're not getting out much.
I don't think you've thought this through. "Different but separate responsibilities is not healthy for women or men.
Having a job with a paycheck is sometime a real upper and lifter of spirits for women. And men need to get some homemaking and nurturing skills.That offers wonderful experiences for the men.
Let's share responsibilites. It's a good learning experience for everyone.
My husband gripes because he has to work from home during the pandemic due to health issues. I've literally told him to zip it. I've lived in this kitchen for decades and my husband gripes about three years working from the kitchen. Welcome to my stay at home world and man up.
@@annwood6812 you're literally turning my comment into a completely different discussion about homemaking and then you're acting like I haven't thought things through...
They also say that if women were given the priesthood they’d take over all the jobs and purpose men need.
Jesus is not mormon. HE is the truth. ❤
Men and women have VERY different experiences with the church, and both are valid and both are difficult. As a man, I can easily say that the most difficult thing is that you're constantly on call. Due to how we have the priesthood, it's our responsibility to make sure that everyone else is blessed by God. This dynamic creates a much more intense feeling of compliance in regards to accepting callings. Women can pretty much reject a calling and they'll just get a bit of gossip about them (which is def irritating), but men will often be seen as an absolute failure. It's very stressful. It's why I really don't buy into the whole "give women the priesthood" thing, because the only reason you'd ever want that responsibility is because you're power-hungry or because of the whole "I want it because he has it! It's not fair!" thing. Having the priesthood isn't fun. It's only fun for the top view men who make it into the hierarchy of the church, such as Russy Nelson.
Yes, for a man the priesthood is a very public function and that presents a lot of pressure. It's a real problem for the men. But when you say you're not into "give the women the priesthood thing", you are deciding what women should want. And you are kind of making a decision for half the congregation. And the truth is some women would relish the priesthood and some would not want it. (Also it's not fair to close opportunities for service in the priesthood for all women because some women woudn't want it.--not that you said that...) The priesthood should be an option, so men and women can opt in or opt out as they wish.
@@annwood6812 Yes. In any organization, there are some who will want leadership positions, counseling positions, high-status positions, while others don't value those things as much and see the associated responsibilities as being undesirable burdens. The top leaders of the church seem to be mainly ego driven and for them being in positions of authority and high status in the organization outweigh the burdens of any associated responsibilities. (I call these the "aspiring leader" personalities. I've met several of them. From an early age, they expressly aspire to high leadership, based on their personalities, family expectations and so on. They'll often put on a humble-brag show in public. ("I feel humbled that the Lord has seen fit to call me to this position of authority and responsibility blah, blah, blah....") But they reeeeaaaallly want it bad.
For the sake of women in the church, I think it would be great for them to have the same range of options. OTOH, as someone who finds it odd that anyone can buy into the belief system, it just seems counterintuitive that someone would want to have a fake priesthood. For 2 centuries, the church has taught that priesthood is not for women, from day one up until the present day (with a few historical carve-outs for a limited kind of priesthood). This makes it a teaching that is part and parcel of the belief system. Demanding that the Church give the priesthood to women at this point is tantamount to either demanding that God change his mind or acknowledging that the leaders of the Church have been dead wrong for more than 2 centuries. Either way, it would be irrational to continue believing in such a god or such a church.
The fact that for women to receive the priesthood will require some men who are fake apostles to decide to grant it to them is just another bit of evidence that the whole thing is false. So getting a fake priesthood is a kind of hollow achievement. I guess as non-believers, we can still advocate for it for the benefit of those who are for whatever reason committed to staying inside the community of believers and make-believe believers. But there's a bit of a jarring logic disconnect to it. But I can get behind it. My bumper sticker is: "Every woman has just as much right as any man to hold the fake priesthood!"
@@annwood6812 I'm not deciding what women should want, I'm giving an opinion on why it's stupid to want something. There's nothing wrong with having that opinion so I shalt not apologize. But appreciate the insight
@@TEAM__POSEID0N but that's the problem. The people who want leadership positions are almost always the people who shouldn't have them
@@jonbaker476 Exactly! If the church was the real deal, you'd think there would be plenty of examples of callings to General Authority positions going out, as a result of divine inspiration, to highly competent, unassuming, decent, very intelligent and deeply spiritual people who never sought high status or power over others, while possessing a high level of wisdom and conscientiousness, that would become ever more evident, remarkable and impressive throughout the entirety of their leadership stewardship. These people would be found in obscure locations. They would often be people who were only known to local people who had dealings with them.
But in reality, leadership callings are almost always easily seen as crass examples of the worst kind of nepotism and cronyism. You have a McConkie becoming an apostle to take a slot made available when his father-in-law was elevated to President status. You have Monson riding his mentor and friend Hinckley's back all the way up the ranks from their days of being buddies employed in church businesses. You have Nelson's son-in-law and Huntsman corp. executive being fast-tracked into GA status. You have Spencer W. Kimball's nephew Eyring moving smoothly up the ranks to the top, while his kids get cushy jobs in church-affiliated operations. You have Hinckley's son being made an official GA just in time to retire with emeritus status and collect a pension. You have Hinckley's cousin's husband being named an Apostle to fill the slot that becomes available when Hinckley is elevated out of the Q12. One could go on for days with examples.
The top leadership positions basically constitute a club of lifelong friends and relatives. The humble unassuming servant laboring in obscurity in the vineyard, who does not aspire to power and dominion and does not seek out adulation, as I spoke of earlier, will never be admitted to the club...and probably would not want to be in it if they knew what it was really all about.
I had a bishop at BYU who said THERE ARE NO CAREER GALS IN THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM - ONLY WIVES AND MOTHERS. so what were all us “gals” doing going to college. Oh right. To land an RM and make babies. The nicest thing my ex husband (the RM I landed) did for me was insist I get my degree. Well that was actually the only nice thing he did for me but it gave me a head start when he left me for his 24 year old assistant.
Sister Bed nar doesn't look happy at all. She almost looks scared and for SURE subservient. I use to love this man and quote his words all the time.. No more!! Watching him speak ..argue.. Makes me sick 🤢. More time in the temple. ..chanting and making masonic symbols!! Who is that golden angel?? Sound familiar Golden angel.. golden calf?? Holiness to the Lord. Who is that Lord?? Who appeared to JS?? Sat an??
The Q15 are well educated to grow their institution, but really are the ones that Jesus was critical of.
There's a good book by Anne Summers called "damned whores and God's police". It was part of my sociology study. In '80s Australia. It cover's the same subject. I'm reflecting the LDS church attitude is very much olden days worldly. No enLightenment.
A thought..sustaining children , providing them with sustenance, it doesn't mean letting them live on ice-cream and lollies. Sustaining the priesthood...besides the fact that men aren't the priesthood, it's just something they're given, false as it is. Sustaining the priesthood does not mean letting men run roughshod and do whatever they want with no opposition.
Test the Google algorithm for “Did Russell M Nelson serve an LDS mission?”
Spoiler alert: the Wikipedia article highlights RMN’s volunteer hours at Temple square. Sorry R. Marion Nelson, that’s not a mission.
1 hour a week for 10 years in a place he could have been sleeping on the job during the restoration video.
Wow. Never heard that talk from Bednar. 🤯🤯🤯 so fucked
Until all 15 apostles are teaching what Bednar taught in that clip, we are not obligated to heed it. Right? Isn’t that what has been taught? So essentially these one-off trips the 12 do and teach anything, it needs to be already taught by all 15.
Yes. Basically, they should just be ignored on anything they say until it's confirmed in writing by all 15. But then...when you think about it...it doesn't seem like the notion that all 15 have to teach something for it to be the real deal was ever confirmed and signed off on by all 15. So I guess that gets us back to the chaotic stew of contradictory and constantly morphing "teachings" and "doctrines" that the Mormon church tries to pass off as a belief system. It's a game of Simon Says. And each of the General Authorities wants to be Simon.
When Brigham Young taught in General Conference that Adam is our god and the only god to be worshiped by us, he was also sustained by all of the General Authorities as the President, Prophet, Seer and Rev'lator for the whole church. Seems like that should count as much as an endorsement of his teachings by the "All-15" club as anything ever could.
Well they don't scare me but they don't look healthy. Inbreeding? I dont know...something is way off.....
If motherhood is the essence of who we are as women... I guess i no longer identify as a woman 🤷 i don't think that's how they intended to "convert" me 🤣
i understood hitler was baptized after death by the mormons. so he tecnically, if repented he could be in at least the terrestial place if not the celestial kingdom/
Not if your ex wives or current fiancee are listening RFM!
his comment on tithing choice is rich considering he hasnt paid any for years.
Oaks and Nel son both married VERY educated and rich women. SD also is worth a lot of money!!
The man is the king of the household. ugh
You make a lot of good points in this toward the middle and end; and to be honest, I almost turned it off due to the beginning. I actually trust both you men more than I do the Q15 now, because you speak truth. I understand the angst one has against the lds church and its leaders . . . I have it myself with all their lies and deceit and "the rules for thee, but not for me". Yet I disagree about all the negative talk with mothers.
Men and women are different, and women are usually more naturally nurturing. Just looking at mother nature and how things work in watching the creatures of the world, the females are to take care of their children -- they are the only ones that can feed them in the beginning (yes, yes, us humans have screwed everything up and feed garbage to infants now, I get it -- and I know some cannot feed their children so I'm thankful for that garbage to keep infants alive -- I've used it myself due to issues -- and this is not the point I'm honing in on) -- they are the ones to be with their children, nurture, take care of, and raise their children into adults (again, look at the creatures in nature). So, it's not terrible the church teaches and prepares females for motherhood and frames it in a lovely way.
Yes, I get what you're saying that they seem to downplay women and yes, I get what you're saying about them telling women they have "limits"; but what are you criticizing them for -- due to them creating the lovely part of being a woman and her meeting her obligations when she chooses to have children? She needs to feel valued in what she's doing, as it IS true that the work she's doing IS more valuable than any job our male counterparts can do in the business world because she is shaping children into adults in whom will either tear down society or help build it up.
So, this part I didn't care for. They are not wrong about everything. And quite frankly this is what breaks my heart and causes me tears to flow (I love their goodness, just not their lies). And lds life can be a very good life and I've had a very good life due to living by the precepts and principles I've been taught vs my other family members who did not keep a form of gospel in their life to help in guiding them to make good/healthy choices that would give them a better life rather than the "trailer trash" stereotype type of life.
I'm thankful for all I've been taught through being lds in how to be a good person and doing my best to "choose the right", even if I don't always.
There are so many things to deconstruct, and I've not had the freeness or relief of feelings that leaving has provided you that you speak of. I'm wandering around in the desert and now I get to understand how the Israelites must have felt to one degree or another.
The lds church, aka its leaders, should have told the truth, they should have lived and followed what they taught. IF it is the true church on the face of the earth with "the restored gospel" as they claim, they would hold up to scrutiny. The truth does not mind being questioned, it's the lie that does. They should not have lied!!!
For my husband, it was church history he was studying that caused him to question years and years before I did. It was the last two years for me with nothing making sense and then the ridiculous way the lds church responded (and lack thereof) and all the absolute WHOPPER of LIES they told over and over and over again and not following their own doctrine and counseling people to do the opposite of what we've been taught all our lives that made me start questioning; and it's been a heartbreaking - heart torn in two - experience for me and has been very difficult.
I've had so many lively debates with my husband (after he felt it was safe to finally tell me what he's been thinking the previous many years due to my being disillusioned) that he "just didn't have the faith" and "how do you really know, you weren't there" type of discussions. . . yet realistically, he can give in to this or that or even 10 things I would tell him, but all 100 points he makes about how things just don't add up? I couldn't disagree with him any longer. I will stand up for truth regardless of who or what it makes look good or bad and to my deep despairing sorrow, he was correct.
Now we're wandering in the desert reframing so many things, seeking truth and no longer making "the church" or "the prophet" our false god as we had before . . . like so many do in the lds church and just don't know it . . . we didn't.
Now I go to God directly to get answers, just like the lds leaders tell us to do (even though they don't believe it since the answer we may get from God may be different than what "the leaders" would say to do . . . arm of flesh there -- so we're pitted as "apostate" when, clearly, we are NOT apostate from God, just from the lies we've been fed all our lives. That's what the lds brainwashing cult-like teachings do -- is have others discount us because we left "the truth" when, really, we left the lies.
I understand just how much harder it might be for someone in whom has a great support system in the lds church. I didn't have that and truthfully, I was labeled as "inactive" for 1.5 years before the plandemic hit; BUT I was NEVER inactive in my heart!!!!! I believed full well and secretly hoped to move so I would start attending again and/or secretly wished my husband would make a stink about it and want me to start coming again. So it wasn't hard to leave when there were not many reasons to stay relationship wise.
We still want to "choose the right" and follow God and learn the bible (as the "mormon" way is to neglect the bible we've discovered, as we're surprised to learn what's in there we've never been taught before and it's like what in the world!?!).
No one will ever convince me there's not a God. I know Him, I have a relationship with Him, I have heard His voice, I know when He is speaking to me, and I've followed His direction and received the positive consequences from doing so. I believe there is a Christ/God's son who came to earth to provide a way for me to be redeemed if I so choose "in" to being redeemed. Everything else is a question mark that I get to do the work to study and pray and find the answers that come from God directly to me to confirm what is true.
Again, a lds life isn't a bad one when lived correctly and I really don't have anything better to offer anyone else who's still enamored by it. "Wandering around in the desert" having full freedom can be seen as refreshing, yet all survival (so to speak) depends upon ourselves. Being in the zoo having shelter, being fed, having "safety", . . . feels secure. Now we don't have any of that; but it's okay, because I don't want all that with a main course of their lies.
I WANT TRUTH and nothing less than the TRUTH will do from here on out.
Anyway, I would have enjoyed this better if you'd see the value in the many things they say and do that really are good and make sense. I don't mind at all calling them out on all the absurdities, as the Lord knows (and so do we) they have SO MANY. There's no need to sound like John Dehlin; I don't mind truth being spoken, just the toxic/satanic/blatantly bias angst isn't needed. Speaking the truth does enough damage without all the additional accoutrements ol' johnny always likes to add. Y'all are better than that and I like and appreciate you both a ton more.
Listen to that little speech and every time he says agency replace it free will and see how ridiculous he sounds.
Free agency versus moral agency. This is new. Touch of LDS hail Mary pass. Hope this works. Spiritual desperation sweat. And no tou r not crazy Bill. This is new strategy.