Episodes like this one always hit so hard for me. As a lifelong member in my 50's these men--these venerated Priesthood leaders-- were held up as heroes in my home by my parents. Their books filled our shelves. Their teachings were in every manual and quoted often. I know it's a hugely overused cliché, but it's just like the scene in the Wizard of Oz when the curtain gets pulled back to reveal the weak and tiny man. Church history, changing doctrine, Book of Mormon historicity, etc etc etc all broke my shelf. But learning the dark sides of my childhood heroes is breaking my heart. But as always, RFM, I truly appreciate the work you are doing. I'm a monthly donor. It's worth every penny.
I was born in Utah to U.K. parents in the 80s. The Bishop and 13 members my dad hired , Robbed us and stole his business and reported that he had stole hundreds of thousands in tithing money. It was later dismissed by the court but at that time it was enough for immigration to kick him out. ( it was tougher then) I’ll never forget how malicious Mormons can be. Makes me laugh when other people say they are nice to deal with.
Wow! You have my condolences for your father's past legal difficulties. Glad that you have dual citizenship & a healthy dose of cynicism about religious affinity groups.
@@gladtobefreeagain7375 thank you. it’s handy to have duel citizenship but when you don’t know anyone there , it’s difficult to live there. Sadly that wasn’t my only experience, growing up Mormon has been rocky.
The Members are innocent!!! They’re literally the BANK for the High Ranking, Quorum Of The Twelve, ON UP. The One’s that get a Paycheck. Apparently, the 10% Tithe off your GROSS MONTHLY INCOME wasn't enough. The Members don’t know, until they know. GOD BLESS YOU.
I grew up in the church in the 70's and 80's. I distinctly remember being told that we pray to God only and that we don't talk to Jesus. We only end our prayers in his name. I never understood that, but I did what I was told. I never felt very spiritual as a Mormon, but I believed my mother, who was very faithful, wouldn't lead me astray, so I leaned on her testimony for all those years until I became inactive at age 19, never realizing why our church seemed to devalue Jesus so much compared to other religions.
@@VickiRobison-o8b I grew up on the 50’s and 60’s. I was raised mormon with my bishop father. My girlfriend’s mother prayed to the Virgin Mary. I thought that was cool. I related to her more than god.
Listening to RFM is the highlight of my week! But I have to say this was one of the most painful episodes to watch. These people leading the church are despicable and disgusting (IMO) I personally know of other good people who were devote members, teaching at BYU whose lives were forever altered because of jealous petty men. This is so sad and shameful. Thank you RFM for assisting in my realization of how much of this corruption has always existed in the Mormon church and helping on my road to recovery from the hurt. It is my pleasure to be a monthly donor and in some small way a part of this community.
I think the leaders are despicable... but so are non- leaders. The problem is that the LDS church leaders are elevated to a god- like status and they think they speak for God... but they are just regular humans.
RFM, Called of God, Obviously the Real General Authority of Community, Common Sense, Truth, History, Suttle Comedy, Friendship, Longsuffering & breaking down Convoluted Moron Gaslit History. Your a Great Man, we are all so happy you're helping us with our later, Latter Day Saint Recovery Therapy! Helping us understand what the CULT thing just happened to us for decades. Pulling great souls out of the matrix one at a time!
Thank you RFM for the whole presentation and especially the George Pace part. McConkie beat him up badly saying it was because Pace vigorously taught ‘you should have a PERSONAL relationship with the Savior.’. McConkie went after him ostensibly for that. Never had a Pace class but so shocking was the cruelty of the attack it left me VERY afraid of any and all of the Q15. It also left me confused about the Savior/ God relationship for years! I was always one taught by my parents to pray to God. So vicious was this talk though, I really backed away from anything that could be construed as lopsided attention to the Son. And now our leaders want us to seek to infiltrate evangelistic religions , wear cross jewelry and show investigators all the nice pictures of Jesus in our church buildings????? Whiplash!!! I send my profound sympathies, sorrows and regrets to all the family members and all of Bro Pace’s students for that horrible public shaming. Heartbreaking and embarrassing.
Excellent episode. We have a very recent affinity fraud situation with Tim Ballard and ELder Ballard. Church members, en masse, supported them and Underground Railroad.
Yeah...and now the main value of McDonkie's books are that they serve as a record of things that were once taught as "doctrine" that have since been downgraded to "disavowed policy". He was a master bloviator, who had a combination of authoritative-sounding confidence and arrogance in his proclamations....the kind of confidence and arrogance one gets from being a "special boy": (1) whose father (Oscar) was a prominent Utah politician and judge; (2) whose brother (Oscar Jr.) was a prominent Utah politician and the founder of the Church's law firm (Kirton McConkie); and (3) whose father-in-law (Joseph Fielding Smith) was an "apostle" who was the son of a Mormon church president and "prophet" and who also later became the president and "prophet". One of those classic "do you know who I am?" types. He was probably madder about young people not worshiping him as much as he wanted than he was about anybody worshiping Jesus instead of "the Father".
Bruce's poem, I believe in Christ, wasn't just written and made into a hymn later, he read it in the April 1972 General Conference. His hypocrisy should have been pointed out back then. The hymn, I Believe in Christ, was then sung at the April 1985 GC, the same conference where Bruce gave his final testimony. That final testimony, which was similarly worshipful of Jesus, was later used in a song called, In A Coming Day.
I remember learning at some point while growing up that we only worship God the Father. The topic came up at one time with a mission companion. I studied it for a couple weeks and concluded that doctrinally we do worship Jesus Christ.
Are the senior leaders in this church uniquely petty and jelous amongst the membership? Perhaps it's just the same old "power corrupts" process and absolute power currupts absolutely... the human condition...
@jac9366 absolutely! Uchtdorf is an example of that petty jealousy. Getting too liked and the popular speaker along with speaking a gentler version got him demoted from the First Presidency. No revelation there. Only nepotism and favoritism.
Never heard of that about Bruce R. McKonkie and his Involvement with investments. I was in the conversation and personally heard a regular member of the church speak to a General Authority (from the quorum of the Seventy) about a multi-level business they were both involved in.
The Lowest of Lows when you Scam people in the Name of Jesus Christ and that’s on top of the Monthly 10% gross Tithe!!!! Truly the First Prosperity Church / Cult. GOD BLESS YOU RFM.
Great episode! Disgusting to know other general authorities were scammers and church money donated by faithful members was used to bail out the corrupt entities!
The whole we worship God the Father, in the Name of Christ, by the Power of the Holy Ghost thing was one of the pillars of BRM's famous Seven Deadly Heresies talk that he delivered countless times. To worship Jesus or desire a personal relationship with Him was one of the deadly heresies apparently.
"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son." Jn. 14:13 Not only are we to pray in the name of Jesus, Jesus promises to answer our prayers made in his name!
Hi RFM. I served a mission in Japan too (May 1980-Nov 1981). Tokyo North. Hey I loved your “Cry Redemption” article in the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies (1994). I’ve shared it with several people over the years. Is part 2 available anywhere? (the one they refused to publish?) Isn’t it funny how few of the ever-changing doctrines, teachings & practices of the LDS Church from the mid-1830s onward have any resemblance to what their own scriptures teach? Indeed “the Book of Mormon is not (LDS) Mormonism”. Funny that their church is like a huge elaborate spacious building/façade that’s just floating in the air, with no foundation at all. An ongoing con game. Unfortunately fraudsters, conmen & scam artists crept in among LDS leadership ranks almost from the beginning, caused all sorts of mischief & mayhem, and then 100% hijacked the church after Joseph’s death. Thousands and thousands of good people have been and are being scammed by LDS inc. from that day until this. It’s a tragic mess. Leaders & members alike have been unwittingly defrauded. Contrary to exmo’s & anti-mo’s & the Church’s own accepted narratives, imho Joseph Smith was a good, selfless, inspired, Christian, non-polygamous, honest man, but he was unfortunately a very easy target for conmen to manipulate and take advantage of. He & Hyrum were the religious scammers’ first victims. Read “Brigham Young’s Hostile Takeover” (2017, Pure Mormonism) and “Who Killed Joseph Smith? (hint: it was an inside job). Joseph’s biggest weakness was naïvely trusting his associates too much, and believing they were sincere whenever they acknowledged wrongs and begged his forgiveness. He forgave them too easily, charitably kept their sins private, and continued to trust them, which led to his murder. Unscrupulous men like John C. Bennett, the Laws, Fosters, Brigham Young, Willard Richards, Heber C. Kimball, William Clayton, & others were two-faced liars who used Joseph Smith’s name to gain LDS members’ trust, victimizing both JS and church members for their own gain and advantage. The pattern of deception they instituted keeps cropping up within Mormonism to this day. A big housecleaning is coming soon though.
Tim Ballard used the same method as AFCO, setting up Elder Ballard as the bait ..and didn't Elder Ballard do something similar with his music hall? I think that was from another Packer story...
Ok now I’m confused. I watched this episode for the affinity fraud but I got caught up in the comments you shared from your previous episode. I was a student at the Y but had graduated by the time . I still lived in town however. The way I remember it was that it was Eugene England BRM had lambasted. And the issue was praying to Christ instead of HF. Oh well I guess time muddles memories. Its make believe apostles spouting make believe doctrine anyway.. Maybe I’ll go listen to that episode.
This is so sad. I cannot throw Bruce R. away, some of his sermons and books hold great value. The fact that he is mortal and made financial mistakes is sad, but unfortunately this is the case so often when power or influence is available. But throwing out the Messiah Series or his last Testimony seems heretical. Oh, an I am a nuanced member that does not attend and feels the church is in apostasy, so do not get me wrong, I was just impacted by the seemingly good things that man did.
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![Mike Lee & The First Amendment [The Mormon Newscast: 042]](/img/tr.png)
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I’m hearing more and more stories about the church sending its leaders on missions to avoid legal repercussions.
Hence we should question who’s teaching these missionaries.
Episodes like this one always hit so hard for me. As a lifelong member in my 50's these men--these venerated Priesthood leaders-- were held up as heroes in my home by my parents. Their books filled our shelves. Their teachings were in every manual and quoted often. I know it's a hugely overused cliché, but it's just like the scene in the Wizard of Oz when the curtain gets pulled back to reveal the weak and tiny man. Church history, changing doctrine, Book of Mormon historicity, etc etc etc all broke my shelf. But learning the dark sides of my childhood heroes is breaking my heart.
But as always, RFM, I truly appreciate the work you are doing.
I'm a monthly donor. It's worth every penny.
What do people mean when they say "broke my shelf"?
I was born in Utah to U.K. parents in the 80s. The Bishop and 13 members my dad hired , Robbed us and stole his business and reported that he had stole hundreds of thousands in tithing money. It was later dismissed by the court but at that time it was enough for immigration to kick him out. ( it was tougher then) I’ll never forget how malicious Mormons can be. Makes me laugh when other people say they are nice to deal with.
Wow! You have my condolences for your father's past legal difficulties. Glad that you have dual citizenship & a healthy dose of cynicism about religious affinity groups.
@@gladtobefreeagain7375 thank you. it’s handy to have duel citizenship but when you don’t know anyone there , it’s difficult to live there. Sadly that wasn’t my only experience, growing up Mormon has been rocky.
So very sad what happened to your father. I sure hope that things were able to be at least somewhat restored
The Members are innocent!!! They’re literally the BANK for the High Ranking, Quorum Of The Twelve, ON UP. The One’s that get a Paycheck. Apparently, the 10% Tithe off your GROSS MONTHLY INCOME wasn't enough. The Members don’t know, until they know. GOD BLESS YOU.
Thank you RFM for this important discussion! 👍🏻🇺🇸🙏
The LDS old-boy-band of the 1970s: Marky Petersen, ET Benson and Bruiser McConkie, The Apossums.
You are always bringing us wonderful and enlightening stories
Thank you so much RFM
And thank you for speaking the Truth .😊
I grew up in the church in the 70's and 80's. I distinctly remember being told that we pray to God only and that we don't talk to Jesus. We only end our prayers in his name. I never understood that, but I did what I was told. I never felt very spiritual as a Mormon, but I believed my mother, who was very faithful, wouldn't lead me astray, so I leaned on her testimony for all those years until I became inactive at age 19, never realizing why our church seemed to devalue Jesus so much compared to other religions.
@@VickiRobison-o8b I grew up on the 50’s and 60’s. I was raised mormon with my bishop father. My girlfriend’s mother prayed to the Virgin Mary. I thought that was cool. I related to her more than god.
John 14:6 KJV Jesus saith unto him; I Am the Way, The Truth and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by ME!!!
GOD BLESS YOU.
Listening to RFM is the highlight of my week! But I have to say this was one of the most painful episodes to watch. These people leading the church are despicable and disgusting (IMO) I personally know of other good people who were devote members, teaching at BYU whose lives were forever altered because of jealous petty men. This is so sad and shameful.
Thank you RFM for assisting in my realization of how much of this corruption has always existed in the Mormon church and helping on my road to recovery from the hurt. It is my pleasure to be a monthly donor and in some small way a part of this community.
I think the leaders are despicable... but so are non- leaders. The problem is that the LDS church leaders are elevated to a god- like status and they think they speak for God... but they are just regular humans.
Awesome awesome job RFM! 👍✨👍
So much of this scamming episode made me think of Tim and Russell Ballard … great work RFM
Exactly what I was thinking!
@@orisonorchards4251 instead of going on a mission to Australia, Ballard just up and died.
FOLLOW THE PROFIT! You'll have the song stuck in your minds now. 😅
Oh, you are so mean, girrrl!🤓
😂
I won’t ever be able to sing that hymn again. 🤐
😎@@mortenle
Not a song. A cult-like chant.
RFM, Called of God, Obviously the Real General Authority of Community, Common Sense, Truth, History, Suttle Comedy, Friendship, Longsuffering & breaking down Convoluted Moron Gaslit History.
Your a Great Man, we are all so happy you're helping us with our later, Latter Day Saint Recovery Therapy! Helping us understand what the CULT thing just happened to us for decades. Pulling great souls out of the matrix one at a time!
Thank you RFM for the whole presentation and especially the George Pace part. McConkie beat him up badly saying it was because Pace vigorously taught ‘you should have a PERSONAL relationship with the Savior.’. McConkie went after him ostensibly for that. Never had a Pace class but so shocking was the cruelty of the attack it left me VERY afraid of any and all of the Q15. It also left me confused about the Savior/ God relationship for years! I was always one taught by my parents to pray to God. So vicious was this talk though, I really backed away from anything that could be construed as lopsided attention to the Son. And now our leaders want us to seek to infiltrate evangelistic religions , wear cross jewelry and show investigators all the nice pictures of Jesus in our church buildings????? Whiplash!!! I send my profound sympathies, sorrows and regrets to all the family members and all of Bro Pace’s students for that horrible public shaming. Heartbreaking and embarrassing.
Commenting to help.
Excellent episode. We have a very recent affinity fraud situation with Tim Ballard and ELder Ballard. Church members, en masse, supported them and Underground Railroad.
I'd like to know more about that.
Scammers pretending to be your pals
And As if, Bruce R McCrazy, didnt make enough dough off of all his many church books! We all bought them.
Yeah...and now the main value of McDonkie's books are that they serve as a record of things that were once taught as "doctrine" that have since been downgraded to "disavowed policy". He was a master bloviator, who had a combination of authoritative-sounding confidence and arrogance in his proclamations....the kind of confidence and arrogance one gets from being a "special boy": (1) whose father (Oscar) was a prominent Utah politician and judge; (2) whose brother (Oscar Jr.) was a prominent Utah politician and the founder of the Church's law firm (Kirton McConkie); and (3) whose father-in-law (Joseph Fielding Smith) was an "apostle" who was the son of a Mormon church president and "prophet" and who also later became the president and "prophet". One of those classic "do you know who I am?" types. He was probably madder about young people not worshiping him as much as he wanted than he was about anybody worshiping Jesus instead of "the Father".
Bruce's poem, I believe in Christ, wasn't just written and made into a hymn later, he read it in the April 1972 General Conference. His hypocrisy should have been pointed out back then. The hymn, I Believe in Christ, was then sung at the April 1985 GC, the same conference where Bruce gave his final testimony. That final testimony, which was similarly worshipful of Jesus, was later used in a song called, In A Coming Day.
I remember learning at some point while growing up that we only worship God the Father. The topic came up at one time with a mission companion. I studied it for a couple weeks and concluded that doctrinally we do worship Jesus Christ.
Thank you
Are the senior leaders in this church uniquely petty and jelous amongst the membership? Perhaps it's just the same old "power corrupts" process and absolute power currupts absolutely... the human condition...
I thought the one true Church led by Jesus Christ would know better
@jac9366 absolutely! Uchtdorf is an example of that petty jealousy. Getting too liked and the popular speaker along with speaking a gentler version got him demoted from the First Presidency. No revelation there. Only nepotism and favoritism.
Never heard of that about Bruce R. McKonkie and his Involvement with investments.
I was in the conversation and personally heard a regular member of the church speak to a General Authority (from the quorum of the Seventy) about a multi-level business they were both involved in.
This kind of thing happens all the time. Thanks
Thanks
The Lowest of Lows when you Scam people in the Name of Jesus Christ and that’s on top of the Monthly 10% gross Tithe!!!! Truly the First Prosperity Church / Cult. GOD BLESS YOU RFM.
He probably also collected a life insurance policy on the poor old lady too!
Spot on RFM! I thought the apostles were above being petty, apparently not.
Ever since I was a kid, I thought "I Believe In Christ" was way too long and kind of exhausting to sing.
Thanks!
Is this the same guy who wrote the infamous Glen L Pace Memorandom during the Satanic Panic?
Loved this!
Great episode! Disgusting to know other general authorities were scammers and church money donated by faithful members was used to bail out the corrupt entities!
The whole we worship God the Father, in the Name of Christ, by the Power of the Holy Ghost thing was one of the pillars of BRM's famous Seven Deadly Heresies talk that he delivered countless times. To worship Jesus or desire a personal relationship with Him was one of the deadly heresies apparently.
Often wrong but never unsure. Amazing add, PT!
Maybe should change “often” to “usually”😛
So then why aren't they called The Church of Heavenly Father of Latter-day Saints if worshipping Jebus is a deal breaker?
"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son." Jn. 14:13 Not only are we to pray in the name of Jesus, Jesus promises to answer our prayers made in his name!
They don't apologize
Lynn is a national treasure!
Hi RFM. I served a mission in Japan too (May 1980-Nov 1981). Tokyo North. Hey I loved your “Cry Redemption” article in the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies (1994). I’ve shared it with several people over the years. Is part 2 available anywhere? (the one they refused to publish?)
Isn’t it funny how few of the ever-changing doctrines, teachings & practices of the LDS Church from the mid-1830s onward have any resemblance to what their own scriptures teach? Indeed “the Book of Mormon is not (LDS) Mormonism”. Funny that their church is like a huge elaborate spacious building/façade that’s just floating in the air, with no foundation at all. An ongoing con game.
Unfortunately fraudsters, conmen & scam artists crept in among LDS leadership ranks almost from the beginning, caused all sorts of mischief & mayhem, and then 100% hijacked the church after Joseph’s death. Thousands and thousands of good people have been and are being scammed by LDS inc. from that day until this. It’s a tragic mess. Leaders & members alike have been unwittingly defrauded.
Contrary to exmo’s & anti-mo’s & the Church’s own accepted narratives, imho Joseph Smith was a good, selfless, inspired, Christian, non-polygamous, honest man, but he was unfortunately a very easy target for conmen to manipulate and take advantage of. He & Hyrum were the religious scammers’ first victims. Read “Brigham Young’s Hostile Takeover” (2017, Pure Mormonism) and “Who Killed Joseph Smith? (hint: it was an inside job).
Joseph’s biggest weakness was naïvely trusting his associates too much, and believing they were sincere whenever they acknowledged wrongs and begged his forgiveness. He forgave them too easily, charitably kept their sins private, and continued to trust them, which led to his murder.
Unscrupulous men like John C. Bennett, the Laws, Fosters, Brigham Young, Willard Richards, Heber C. Kimball, William Clayton, & others were two-faced liars who used Joseph Smith’s name to gain LDS members’ trust, victimizing both JS and church members for their own gain and advantage. The pattern of deception they instituted keeps cropping up within Mormonism to this day.
A big housecleaning is coming soon though.
If BRM got the Second Annointing, he's good with God regardless of who he hurt. 😂🙄
Tim Ballard used the same method as AFCO, setting up Elder Ballard as the bait ..and didn't Elder Ballard do something similar with his music hall?
I think that was from another Packer story...
Ok now I’m confused. I watched this episode for the affinity fraud but I got caught up in the comments you shared from your previous episode. I was a student at the Y but had graduated by the time . I still lived in town however. The way I remember it was that it was Eugene England BRM had lambasted. And the issue was praying to Christ instead of HF. Oh well I guess time muddles memories. Its make believe apostles spouting make believe doctrine anyway.. Maybe I’ll go listen to that episode.
Great info, as always. But, for some reason, the last few broadcasts have some dropped omitted words. ???
Hmm. On replay. For some reason, I do not get notifications
This is so sad. I cannot throw Bruce R. away, some of his sermons and books hold great value. The fact that he is mortal and made financial mistakes is sad, but unfortunately this is the case so often when power or influence is available. But throwing out the Messiah Series or his last Testimony seems heretical. Oh, an I am a nuanced member that does not attend and feels the church is in apostasy, so do not get me wrong, I was just impacted by the seemingly good things that man did.
Is there a way to read the full text without having to go to the UofU library?
What camera do you use RFM?
Lds arent allowed to sue other members right? Were the victims penalized for suing?
Where’s the previous episode you referring to?
I think it was an LDS broadcast episode.
You didn’t give Bob the money? Tell me you didn’t? Not you RFM?
Thank you