@rboland2173 shabibo: religious shit sill make you struggle miserably! Thats about it benny boy.. lol it will also make everyone around you strugglr n be miserable too XD
This was me. For 40+ years. I questioned all of it. Even atheism(and at a point what I called agnosticism). I still wonder about things, but doubt? I don’t think I have.
Oh boy, I love that! Isn't it true. I often think Gang Bangers must be theists, b/c in spite of life of crime and murder, I wonder if any really take the time to look at their beliefs?
I personally have at times wondered if there is a god. I can't remember any point in time in which I seriously considered a _religion_ being true, though. If I ever change my mind, I will at most become a deist. I was raised in an atheist household though, so that definitely colours my perceptions.
While I don't believe in a God or gods, I also don't believe there is no God or gods. I just haven't seen any objective evidence that convinces me that a god or Gods exist. I wouldn't have raised my hand, but only because the question makes no sense. Atheism is not a "faith" and requires no faith, so there is nothing to doubt.
What raises a red flag for me is when I hear someone saying that ALL of that bad group believe exactly the same bad things while ALL the good group believe exactly the same good things. I have learned over my 76 years that everything is complicated. No two people in any group think exactly alike. That’s life.
Asking a question of the audience in a debate is just Rhetorical B/S and like a fortune teller doing a warm read on the crowd. Let the Cult Propagandist PROVE his case, not just go into a conversion shuck-and-jive.
I don't want to sound condescending. You always present well-though and researched views, and your presentation is first class. It's just that the title of this video made me laugh out loud: " Dennis Prager & Ben Shapiro Are Not Being Honest" Yeah, and in other news, water has been found to be wet.
ha! Got me. It is funny and also sad. there are actually things about some of these men, that I really enjoy/respect, but some like their take here, just kill me.
@@MindShift-Brandon I have been engaged in theological/philosophical discussions online now for more than twenty years, and about another twenty years before that in a less universal setting. I have met a lot of believers with whom I might disagree in central points, but who I can still respect for their sincerity, or their strength of character. But in the same way - sadly even more so - I have found the most annoying, arrogant, dishonest and despicable people claiming to "speak for God", and, just as sad, these tend to be the loudest and most prominent. How am I to respect anyone claiming to present "the Truth" when they constantly lie in that presentation?
@@MindShift-Brandon People have a lot less clarity of thought than we often think. I remember how sharp I was at work or college in my early 20s and now at 40 my mind is so muddled and my memories so unreliable I feel like I'm just winging it in every meeting. I think in particular public people have to wing it so much that they forget they are even doing it.
@@MindShift-Brandon I don't see the title as dishonesty. I see it as the truth even if we know that of course they are dishonest. I would (but I am not the gentleman you are) have added that they are morons. I do not respect anyone who talks that way.
JP is so fake. Have you ever heard him supposedly debate about god? All he does is use a massive ridiculous vocabulary and then look really serious and never just give yes or no answers and reasons he just gets into psychology and literally you can't follow it I've tried like three times on one of his debates and it wasn't even a debate it literally made no sense and then he keeps on saying god with that Canadian accent and I'm thinking to myself man you don't even believe in God you just like the idea and want to but have to fake it for your followers
Bottom line is that apologists *have* to strawman non-believers (even literally demonizing them), otherwise it would seriously undermine a large part of their dualistic good vs. evil narrative.
Actually, they sometimes also say that God is "working through" whoever, even someone indifferent or hostile to their beliefs. They want it both ways. Perhaps this is to reduce the dissonance they might feel over some such people encountering a ghastly fate upon their death.
This question of if we doubt when we see nature or a newborn baby is a catch 22. If we say we have doubts about our atheism, then they get to say, "See? Atheists know that God is real. They're just too stuborn to admit it." But if we say we don't have doubts, then they say, "See? They're closed minded. They can't even consider the possibility that they're wrong." You can't win with these people.
I don't agree that the birth of a baby or sunsets or the colors of flowers or new-fallen snow are miraculous. That's what the apologists seem to imply. Nature puts on some awe-inspiring shows, but they aren't miracles.
@@IheartDogs55 - I agree. It's inconsistent to see the good stuff in nature as "miraculous" while ignoring all of the ugly parts of nature. If a birth of a healthy baby, with no issues with the mother, is a miracle, then what do we call it when lions rip open a pregnant boar and eats its young?
I think nature is pretty incredible and does imply something higher and beyond that we don't understand. Whether or not that's Christianity is a totally different question. They always want to conflate the two, as if if a god exists, then it MUST be the Christian god, which does not follow at all.
They might as well ask, "do you ever doubt your atheism when you see your own shit in a toilet?" Seriously, the process that produces it is AMAZING, digesting and extracting what you need to stay alive from food. If babies are a miracle from God, so is shit, but they never talk about that. Making a baby is just another bodily process like digestion. No miracles, we know exactly what they are.
Most of us are actually among those believers who did question their beliefs until we became atheists or agnostics. So we’ve already been there, done that and got the T-shirt.
It's actually hard to be an atheist. It's hard to do the research and deep introspection before walking away from the faith you were raised in. It's hard to figure out what person you want to be in this world without an external framework telling you what you should be. There's no easy list to fall back on.
@@MindShift-Brandon If someone is utterly certain he is right and he's scornfully told he's full of shit by a lot of people, he's going to feel persecuted and that other people with the same conviction are too. He COULD consider that maybe he's wrong, that scornful disagreement is not persecution, or that the scorn he gets may be from something other than kneejerk hatefulness - but any of those are difficult and uncomfortable things to consider and he's not paid for that.
I literally had this thought the over the weekend...repeatedly. In church, they tell you what to think, how to feel, what to do....they manage every single detail of life. Now, I've gotta figure this out myself and what if I'm wrong...I've wasted so much time in religion, I don't have a lot of time and chances to get it wrong. This is truly exhausting!
Prager is a smart man until he addresses questions of religion. He claims he knows what God thinks and wants. Don't trust him. And he certainly does not understand that it is a lack of valid evidence that leads to atheism.
After I left, I never looked back or felt insecure about my step. There are too many gods and religions for any of them to be “true”. They are just another product of culture and history.
Yep. The common thread here is people. Brains are wacky and imprecise and lazy and we're all stuck with one. The fact that so many people believe in the supernatural isn't surprising or indicative of anything other than the duct tape and chewing gum nature of our cognition and the work that it takes to avoid falling victim to it.
Even as a life-long atheist, I often ask myself if I might be missing something and there might be something out there that is real that leads all these billions of people to believe in some sort of god. But for all of my 35 years on this world, I have never seen anything even halfway concrete that points in that direction. It doesn't stop me from questioning myself, though. I'm fairly certain I'll keep questioning all of my convictions until I'm either dead or senile.
yes indeed. I get those of us who are so sure or it was never real to them enough in the first place to make it to a point of consideration. Thats very fair, but its such a base of my life for so long, that i will probably always gut check myself, not just on this but on everything.
I have spent the last few years listening to scholars such as Bart Ehrman and James D. Tabor, along with ReligionforBreakfast, UsefulCharts, etc. Once you understand the 5 W's (and H) of the biblical Canon and combine that knowledge with the skeptical philosophical arguments - you sit firm in your atheism. Sure, there is always the curiosity of not knowing for certain, but the only thing that could change my mind is an indubitable personal experience.
@@andrewc1205 : personal experience can definitely be supremely convincing, but if I am to believe an all powerful god exists, I'm expecting *everyone* to share the same personal experience that will end centuries if not millenia of disagreements (if not worse) on the nature and even existence of said god.
Having been "liberated" from the brainwashing and conditioning of society (for both religious and animal right aspect) recently, sometimes I question if those apologetics are sincere in making their argument, or they are just "trapped" and must prevail with their defense of religion. The level of dishonesty is beyond comprehension.
yes, thats kind where I arrive toward the end of the video. Theres only two options left at this point, you know you are wrong (at least about atheists) so you are just lying, or you dont know you are wrong, and that would take massive levels of bias and willful ignorance imo.
@@MindShift-Brandon Ben Shapiro is lying, knowlingly, all the time though and so is Prager. Ban Shapiro has been going on about how the left goes after the person, while the right doesn't care about your feelings. In seminares where he teaches people to discuss their views, he said that you had to go after the person and not the argument. There are videos online. Benny boy also has videoes where he explains topics where he wilfully goes out of his way to create a false narrative, on topics that he has spoken closer to the truth before. Prager has MODIFIED studies in his videoes! You cannot edit what studies say and have doctorated images in your video and then claim ignorance. They are just hacks that know that they have to lie to keep their base happy. They might even believe they serve the greater good in doing so, but they cannot claim ignorance. They both create narratives and choose their arguments depending on the viewing demographic of the video. Shapiro to a higher degree than Prager. Peterson is even worse. He goes from the bible being a book of events that happened, ALL of them, to some have happened some have not, to that they might have happened but who can say, to they are nice stories that he of course does not believe is true except for the wisdom the stories can teach us. Peterson, with the right audience, is an atheist. With another audience he is a creationist. There people should not be taken serious in any setting.
@@ChillAssTurtle hahahaha.. or simply decent character deficient (a.k.a extreme ignorance and utter low self awareness) which imo is the most likely and common cause of these "unbelievable" biased arguments
He's a classic example of what a dumb person thinks a smart person sounds like. His delivery can seem thoughtful and patient, but the content may as well be coming from Rush Limbaugh.
@@MindShift-Brandon hes essentially a conservative grifter lolcow. None of his fellow conservatives actually take him seriously, especially after what hea said about p*rn in this series, and further on his interview with @PintsWithAquinas
@@MindShift-BrandonJust a heads-up - doing a deep dive on Dennis will be something akin to Andy Dufresne's escape from Shawshank 😂. Make sure to pack some mind-cleanser.
When I was deconstructing my beliefs, my father once asked asked me "What you you think about people who deconstruct their beliefs?" I started to get really nervous because I thought he had noticed a change in me or something. But I answered with something to the effect of "I think they are people who are examining their faith and are trying to figure out what is true." His response was "I think they are people who listen to devils instead of listening to God." Yikes!
When I deconstructed I can't tell you how many times I had people say that Satan got me or something similar. It's soooo sad how deeply brainwashed they are.
That is an implicit admission that those beliefs won’t withstand questioning. If there was confidence that the examination of the belief would strengthen the belief, the questioning would be framed as righteous.
Satan got Adam and Eve to sin by questioning God's Word. If it is God's Word, it's not good to question it. That thought process is logical. There are many good reasons to believe it is God's Word, the most substantial of which is fulfilled prophecy like Isaiah 53 or Daniel's prophecy of four empires.
Morning! I have no idea why this launched an hour early today, but thanks for being here! Also wanted to say. I love that we all don't agree on the poll question. We don't have to. Both answers are valid, and a lot of it comes down to the impreciseness of the question. Anyways, I'm just happy to be on a side that doesn't require full agreement and where can still be civil about any disagreement. Cheers!
I've never been a theist. I can't say that I've ever had doubts about my position. What exactly would I be doubting? "That Beethoven sure could compose a damn symphony, maybe there is an all powerful being that loves us." "Oh that was a horrific tragedy, maybe I'm wrong and demons are real." Being an atheist frees me from doubt as I have no belief that relies on faith to remain solid.
Imagine arguing that "doubt" adds validity to your claim. I bet flat-earthers experience more doubt than round-earthers, too. I wonder why that is. Must be that flat-earthers are more sincere in searching for truth, right? Couldn't be that they doubt because their position isn't supported with evidence!
@@vickigroesbeck1104 I mean doubt does add credibility and validity to your claim: a scientific theory is a hypothesis that’s has failed to be rejected, not a a hypothesis that has been demonstrated to be fact. The pinnacle of our knowledge is borne of constant doubt in the form of testing and trying to force a hypothesis to fail until we simply run out or ways to disprove it. And as we come up with new ways to dismantle hypotheses we try again over and over: doubt is PRECISELY how we arrive at truth. Without doubt how else could one shed the unnecessary baggage of gods, magic, and the supernatural in general? Doubt, properly performed, is just a great filter of knowledge.
@@ToastUrbath Yes, you are absolutely correct. The "problem" of course is that literally _nobody_ is capable of doubting and questioning and testing everything. I'm pretty sure that Australia exists, but I don't spend _any_ time considering how I could verify that it's not some elaborate global joke or conspiracy (let alone doing any actual experiments). Nobody has the time and resources to verify _everything,_ we all must accept _some_ things - and the less spare time someone has, the less they can spend it on such explorations, the more they just have to accept (when it comes to topics where they have to make a judgement that is, otherwise, one can simply dismiss claims as irrelevant and not care whether they're true or false - for me, that'd for example be String "Theory"). And just in case someone reads this and wants to point out that belief in their god - or rejection of those claims - _of course_ has a huge impact on my life: Well, so does belief in the interdimensional monster that pops up at random under your bed and will eat you alive if you haven't cleaned it's spot that very day. You could suffer a horrible death any day if it were true. But I very much doubt there is _anyone_ on this planet who has spent any time whatsoever "doubting their disbelief" in that.
@@ToastUrbathtotally agree, the problem only emerges when you ignore the introspection that comes with doubt and dismiss all the questions by taking faith in some higher power
@@jj_verona I think I would argue that doubt which fails to result in introspection does not qualify as doubt. What good is it to have questions if they warrant no consequence? Even if nothing actually changes, you have doubted wrongfully, there should be some amount of weight attributed to the changes which may be necessary and if that weight scares you into conforming the previous ideas(confirmation bias) then you probably never had any doubt in the first place. You sought answers without any respect for the consequences that may arise. This is not doubt, this is the opposite: it is a rhetorical question. It is an assertion that the question only serves to arrive at bad answers or at least answers we don’t want to accept. It is an assertion of apathy: it is a fruitless question and therefore purposeless as it makes no difference had you not questioned in the first places.
The persecution complex some christian in the US have is is baffling to me, beacuse its the group doesnt face such a thing at all while being the loudest about it. This is while there are tons of christian and other religious ppl around the world who are actually being murdered for their beliefs. Suffering that is sometimes furthered, ironically, by the US.
I laugh each Winter Holiday Season when the inevitable “War On Christmas” gets trotted out! 😆 Is Santa still waiting for his Purple Heart for all the Xmas ornament shrapnel he’s taken? 😆
The sheer existence of any alternative belief system, without groveling deference, feels like persecution to those Christians. That's the standard they expect in the U.S. - likely because they've HAD that environment here for centuries and the American historical perspective tends to be really, really near-sighted.
I was at the mechanics getting an oil change and this complete stranger announced to all of us sitting quietly waiting room that god was "punishing her right now". She was so proud, so happy about her "trials and tribulations". At the time I was still going to church, I looked at her, thinking to myself "something's wrong, I gotta re-think this".
When he said " we struggle, you don't " it almost fealt like a dehumanizing statement aimed at people who have never been of faith or are formerly of faith. I cannot tell you how much I've struggled with my deconstruction. I've connected the dots and I didn't like the image that it created. I think it's a common tactic of organized religion to dehumanize people's and groups that it doesn't agree with. Just more proof of how insidious it can be in my opinion.
I had a coworker who I discussed Christianity with on occasion.He outright said to me towards the end of a conversation that he too has doubts and it's part of being a Christian. But at some point you have to just believe. You can't go too far down that rabbit hole because it leads to bad places. I know it sounds like I'm making that up. But I swear he said it. They are trained to not follow their doubts. And I asked him why not seek out those lines of thought. Clarify them, wouldn't it make your faith stronger to face those questions. Nope. Leads to bad things. But that's where the conversation ended. Don't know if he thinks that doubt is a product of Satans deceit, or if hes just repeating words he was told when he was younger. It's ok to doubt but don't stray too far kinda stuff.
I have had doubts, but only because the thought of hell was so traumatic that it took into my mid 20s to shake. I remember being a teen and Pascal’s Wager made so much sense. Then realizing that’s not the way to think, and learning about other hells from different religions helped me finally shake it off for good
I never believed and was brought up in a somewhat religious home. Hey maybe should start a religion called "I am better than vincentclark" At least I wont threaten to kill you if you are wong about something. Something happens when atheists debate Prager on his show. They become cowards and forget their best arguments. Saw this with a few top Atheists. It was unbelievable. Harris and Dawkins I think. Prager is reckless and better than everyone, he thinks. Smug. How could a good god want non-believers to suffer? Well if god is malevolent... that's the answer or he doesn't exit. Prager may not believe all atheists to be evil, but he just really does not understand how easy it is for us "non-wired" to see the hundreds of flaws in the Bible and Quran. No proof of god. Maybe a Big Bang god with terrible or no Morality? Jesus wanted eternal hell, supported slavery, made no predictions that came true, divided families, knew nothing of Germ Theory or DNA or the Planets or that earth was the third stone from the Sun (Jimi Hendrix knew that). If abortion is so Bad why does Jesus and his slaughter of innocents not get scrutinized.
My parents didn't raise me under a religion, so I never really gave it much thought until much later. I witnessed my Dad, who was raised Catholic, waffle on what he believed especially when things were hard. But he doubted those beliefs since being a kid himself (got in trouble for asking questions). I think any personal leaning started when a kid in high-school invited me to Easter service. I went and saw them so into the ceremony (raised hands, closed eyes) and thought that so curious. But the sermon was about how "we can only have success through Jesus, our good works only but through him" and I was offended by that idea. Why does Jesus get credit for my work? Afterward the kid asked me what I thought and I said "it was ok. I didn't agree with everything the pastor said though." The look of bafflement on her face..... Like it would/could never occur to her to actually have an opinion on what the pastor preached. I think that disturbed me a bit.
I love how "struggling with one's believe" is supposed to be a sign of honesty. Like: "Oh yeah, those people with spoons never question their way of eating soup. Us fork-users struggle often with the question of whether we should use a spoon, but we always come back to our fork!" Meanwhile, a spoon-user: "So, I have tried using a stick, a fork, a knife, a straw, my hands, two chopsticks, a really small sieve, an eyedropper, and sheer force of will, and so far the way to eat soup that makes the most sense to me is using a spoon. Sometimes I think about using a straw, but then I notice the vegetables swimming in the soup and quickly realise that it wouldn't work as good."
"What would it take for you atheists to believe in a Santa Claus that lives in the North Pole and flies in a sled pulled by reindeer to visit every house on Christmas to come down the chimney and leave presents?" "I honestly can't think of anything that would convince me that's true" "You are so closed minded!"
ha! yes though there is a difference between believing and having doubts, but i get it. For many of us, theres jjust no possibility and thus no doubt. just
@@MindShift-Brandon the issue is that they are treating absurdity as a possibility. They are asking you to believe, not just in some intelligent cause of existence, but in a talking donkey, worldwide flood, a guy who was executed by Romans and who then came back to life and flew into a cloud, and other nonsense.
@@hamobu And if you could believe all that - you really would have to admit to an ability to be wrong about _everything_, not in a merely intellectually humble sort of way but in an abandon all rationality way. And if you get that far, if you cannot trust any inference from any experience, you AGAIN have no grounds for believing in their religious account. If I COULD sincerely be a biblical literalist, I'd reasonably have to consider also that I've had a total mental breakdown that would account for that set of beliefs, and of the two, the total mental breakdown is at least as reasonable.
Daniel predicted the rise and fall of four empires. Isaiah named Cyrus before Cyrus was born. Isaiah also predicted someone would die for our sins. Jesus Christ appeared to over 500 eyewitnesses following His resurrection. The technology is here for people to pay for things using an implant in their right wrist, which means the mark of the beast may not be far off. Etc. etc. etc.
Funny, it is always the beautiful things that people cite as reasons for believing in God. They never mention the horrendous parts of life like parasites, natural disasters, birth defects, cancer, etc.
Yep, the same people (or, at least the more tolerant Christian types) who think that Jesus was a 1st century Gandhi preaching nothing but tolerance, love, and peace. They ignore all the intolerance, exclusivism, hate, and violence he preached in other places. The takeaway: people make god in their own image, because they ultimately just worship their own ego.
Exactly. Fine-tuned when you are the 1% and are resting on the shoulders of masses of generations that died trying to make this little percentile of the earth habitable.
@@MindShift-Brandonespecially when just a short time ago we didn’t get the opportunity to view nature as beautiful. Every tree, bush etc, every moonless night was a threat to survival and might harbor our death in myriad ways.
A biblical worldview accounts for the things we know in this life. It does not shy away from any of the realities that men face--the good and the bad. God created men to have perfect fellowship with him; man's sin brought his judgment into the world (see Romans 5:12). He gives us good things alongside which we also know suffering, disease, decay--all outcomes of men's rebellion against him (see James 1:17, Genesis 3:16-19). Both point us to God and our need to be reconciled to him through the only Savior of men, Jesus Christ, lest we perish in our sins (see 2 Corinthians 5:18-21).
@@smpittsburgh264 There's no such thing as a "biblical worldview." My challenge to you is to name something in this "biblical worldview" that all Christians would agree on across all denominations. A little more concretely: can you Christians name a single ethical principle that all Christians ultimately endorse and agree that it comes from (their) god? Outside of the virtue of believing without evidence, what is there? For example, even among Christians there has ALWAYS been moral disputes, and too many to mention. (Just look at the 10,000+ denominations!) Let’s talk about slavery, for example and turn the clock back to the 19th century (and earlier) and consider the stark moral difference between those Christians who declared that (their) God was on the side of slavery, and those who claimed (their) god was on the side of abolition. Both sides INSISTED that "the biblical worldview" was what THEIR side upheld! But did their god ever step in to make his views apparent? Nope. Of course not. He left it to the pro- and anti-slavery Christians to kill each other to settle the issue of what god apparently thinks is the right position.
Dennis Prager, Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson are probably the three most intellectually dishonest people you could ever get on a stage together. Entertaining video, of course, but it's a legit struggle to watch this from the cringe overload. Also, I would love to watch a debate against any of these guys, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Kyle Kulinski of Secular Talk has had an open invitation to Ben Shapiro to debate for years and it's been crickets from Ben.
That's because Kyle isn't an 18-22 year old that Ben can steamroll with his rapid fire BS and gish-gallop. He hasn't done much, if any debating, after he got laughed out of the room after trying to run his crap past a BBC commentator (a really conservative one no less).
I agree where Prager is concerned, and perhaps also Shapiro. Peterson, on the other hand, is honestly intellectual inasmuch as he reads and studies widely. I’ve spent almost 25 years in academia, and it’s clear when someone (whether teacher or student) is reading widely and when they’re thinking carefully about what they’re reading; Peterson shows this regularly. There is an arrogance to Prager, and Shapiro appears to be more interested in being right, but Peterson has shown again and again that he listens and is willing to have a conversation rather than patronise or shut down the other person.
@thefuturist8864 we must be seeing very different videos of Peterson if you really believe he's above patronizing or shutting down someone. He may be widely read, I'll give you that for sure, but he's 100% arrogant when he pretends to be an expert in fields he knows very little on, and when he straight up lies about his experiences and qualifications.
Thank you! The three of these guys are intellectually dishonest. I've seen them do this in debates. Also, it's obvious to me that their end goal is just to get to heaven, not that "doing good for others out of love" stuff. It's selfish and it's their selfishness that plays out in their mental gymnastics to twist meaning to fit their narrative, not listening to facts in the face of their interpretations. Intellectually and morally dishonest.
Btw, Peterson is an atheist 😂 His "God" is the Divine Level of his hierarchy of values. He won't come straight out and say it, most of the time. Depends on his audience.
@@misanthropicmusings4596 Shapiro sort of confuses me on this point. I'm not sure if he's advocating for Christianity or just religion (Abrahamic) in general. He runs in the same crowd.
This talk of uncertainty reminded me of a part of a song by Tim Minchin: "So I resist the urge to ask Storm whether knowledge is so loose-weave of a morning when deciding whether to leave her apartment by the front door Or the window on her second floor."
Not gonna lie, I'm really sick of being told that life is meaningless, or that my life "has no meaning" as an atheist. Life having no inherent meaning or purpose means that no one is imposing a meaning on me. I decide for myself. That's LIBERATING! I have autonomy over how I see my own life! Why would religious people see this as a bad thing?
I consider myself an atheist yet my belief system includes how much more beautiful the process is when experienced in reality. I know what a rainbow is and how they are created and that still amazes me every time I see one.
I'll stop my car to get out and look at a rainbow. I loooove rainbows, even though I have known the Noah story is bullshit for quite a while now. They are just fucking cool.
Let's be clear here: Dennis Prager pulled a bait and switch. He asked if people doubted, and then when they said no, used that to say that they never reflect on their beliefs or understanding, or consider new information. Those are NOT the same thing. There was a video I watched some time ago, I believe from Logicked, that covered a man addressing and assuaging the doubts of a girl who'd emailed him. He quotes the message she sent him, and it wasn't some idle curiosity, some casual self-reflection. Doubt was eating this person alive. She had found aspects of the faith that didn't add up with each other, and had no way of addressing them, but was desperate to hold onto what she'd known her entire life. So she sent her email hoping that someone had answers for her, that they could explain what she'd missed that made it all make sense despite the glaring problems she had discovered for herself. While it may be an extreme example of it, the fact remains that THIS is what Doubt is. I self-reflect regularly. Whenever I watch one of these videos where they try to say "here's a good reason to believe", I think it through and judge for myself whether it's a good reason or not, giving it a fair shot. But I have NEVER, not ONE time, doubted the nonexistence of the Christian God. No one has ever given me a reason that was actually good. Or even decent. I've seen flaws with every bit of logic thrown my way, and that over the course of months and years of listening to what people claim is their best work. I've also seen flaws in the logic people use to try to prove evolution and other secular concepts wrong, and again have never had cause to think "wait, is it actually incorrect?" It's all cohesive and works cleanly with all the other pieces, including from entirely unrelated fields of study. What's there to doubt? There are no seeming contradictions like there are all across religion. No need to create fanciful stories to explain away discrepancies. Everything fits together like a perfect little jigsaw puzzle. The more I learn, the more things click. Whereas my experience coming across countless religious and ex-religious people is that the more they learn about THEIR topic, the more they notice how poorly everything fits, and can't find ways to connect things up without stretching the imagination to breaking point. The fact that so many Christians regularly experience this kind of doubt, not casual self-reflection but unnerving unease, a feeling of the ground shaking beneath their feet, is a sure sign of its failure to reflect actual truth. Doubt in the sense used by people actually experiencing it is a warning sign, your subconcious screaming at you that something is wrong. When doubt creeps up on you, go out of your way to listen to it. Let it ask the question, and then go try to answer it. If the doubt is unfounded, an answer will appear, your unease will vanish, and you'll be more knowledgeable and more confident as a result. But if the "answer" you get is "don't think about it, I'm sure it makes sense to someone", or "how dare you question someone as awesome as God?", that should be a pretty good sign that there IS no answer, and they want you to ignore your unease so that you don't recognize it for what it is: A neon sign that your belief does NOT add up.
@leob3447 Very well said, and I'm glad to hear the world makes more sense to you now. I also have to draw particular attention to the phrase "doubts of any significance". That's really the heart of what I was driving at. While there's a definition or two in the dictionary that supports the "just checking my ideas on the off-chance" usage of the word Doubt, it's mostly used to convey doubts strong enough to cause discomfort or hesitation. Doubts of significance. So rewording my main point using these terms: We may all doubt sometimes, but the truth will never give you cause for doubt of any real significance. If it's causing you trouble, it's significant doubt, and significant doubts are the warning sign of untruth that I spoke of. Thanks for that wording, it really helps to have this on hand for people who do use the word doubt that way, which I wouldn't even consider unreasonable, despite personally disagreeing. Better to meet them where they're at, so long as their definition isn't wildly off the mark.
Hey there, I've recently started my deconversion journey and your videos have been of great help! As you can imagine, most of my inner circle of people is very religious and I've felt so lonely because I don't have anyone to talk to about my feelings. Your videos show me that I'm not alone and that I'm on the "right" track. Thank you so much for the amazing work that you do and all the time and effort you pour in your content, I really appreciate it. Cheers from Uruguay 🇺🇾
Yup, many atheists know how hard this is for you having been there. I debate and checkmate thiests all the time. It's cathartic, amusing and educational. I write "Checkmate routines" and checkmate one after another as they go down in howls of protest. Here's one such example I wrote that anyone can use. 100% checkmate, right off the bat, every time: *Question:* Does this omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent presuppositional, so-called "god…" …that you want us to believe in… _…know…_ *…who* will go to "heaven"… …and _who_ will go to "hell"… *_👉 before_* 'he' "creates" each person? *It's yes or no.* WHEN they try to immediately dodge the question, *pin them* as you're one move from putting them in oh so satisfying *checkmate.* You say this:" Why ya dodgin' the question Pilgrim❓ *Then repeat the question.* and just keep doggin them and chasing them 😂 The second time they try to dodge you say: "I didn't think so. I got you scared and runnin', boy. *Checkmate.* Or something like that. But it needs to be a ruthless, cruel, stately-eyed, no holds barred, vindictive approach, depending on the individual debate. That's how I roll and I kick theists asses daily. I have written scores of C&P checkmate routines and I gave a 100% win rate.
For the pol I've never doubted my atheism, if something confuses me I try to look it up and find the answer. Though I have doubted naturalism cause I find it hard to believe ghosts or some super natural beings exist.
i think both answers make a great deal of sense. So many of us struggle and doubt so much for so long, that once we finally reach a conclusion, theres not much reason to still doubt. Others have been so indoctrinated for so long or are so truly skeptical that there will always be doubt etc. Thanks for being here!
If I'm not voluntarily engaging about religious belief, and if it's not being shoved into my face in violation of my boundaries, then the best way to describe my attitude toward religion and god-belief is "disregard." I just don't care about it that much. I was raised secular, and I've always thought the stories and such were silly and can't believe people take them seriously.
Again another awesome video. I have stopped sharing or even asking my old Christian friends to watch your videos I presented them and tell me what they think. No one wants to talk About these issues or just totally come up with excuses as to why they are right and we are wrong. Love ya brother keep it up. Warrior on 👍🏼😁
I notice that they are talking about how Christians question and struggle, and how it is the hard way, but they are famous people patting themselves on the back rather than digging into each other’s ideas. This was a great opportunity for them to question and be as precise as possible, but that was not on any of their agenda.
Imagine being in a place with a large number of people seated around you and the speaker starts saying: "Raise your hand, if ..." Nope. I won't raise my hand. I won't stand up. I don't want to greet those around me. Please don't count on my participation. I am perfectly fine quietly listening.
Since I reached the point where I was comfortable calling myself an atheist, I've never doubted. I spent some time as an agnostic, and during that time I was unsure - that's why I was agnostic.
Great video! I appreciate your candor and venerability. I went from an evangelical Christian, to a “ freelance monotheist”, to an agnostic , to finally an atheist. I spent so many years as an agnostic because I thought there must be a god out there somewhere if nearly every culture has some sort of concept of a god. But I eventually realized I did not believe a god existed and admitted to myself that I was an atheist. I sometimes wonder, because I am a big science-fiction fan, if there is a god beyond time and space. But then I think, why would there be? God is simply an idea to explain the unexplainable. He gets more and more remote and small the more we learn.
Personally, I wrestled with my doubts until I was as sure as I could be before deciding I was an atheist. And that took decades. - btw another great video, this channel is a tremendous asset to dialogue on religion.
I've just found your channel and wanted to say that, in addition to the concise and well-spoken analysis in your videos, I really appreciate the overall tone of your presentation. It's gentle but not patronizing, pointed but not smug, and able to express frustration without being antagonistic. They're the kind of videos I love because they feel like something that I could potentially show to my Christian parents to talk about atheism and that they would actually be open to hearing (esp. given their age). I feel like a lot of other content is made with a 'by athiests for athiests only' mindset, that I can watch on my own, but I would never show to a Christian that I wanted to start a productive discussion with.
I was a believer and attended practically every church service for the first 23 years of my life. The preachers and Sunday school teachers continually made blanket assertions about various aspects of our thinking or our character or accusing us of doing things that were against god's will, and then they lectured us that we should change or quit doing these things. The funny thing was that most of what they accused us of did not apply to me and did not apply to most of the people I knew; or, as far as I could see, it was entirely harmless. But the preachers and Sunday school teachers never asked us--they simply made assumptions. Finally getting tired of that and the manipulation and hypocrisy of the churches, I quit going to church but kept my faith. I reduced my religion to reading the Bible, praying, and witnessing. I did this for an additional 6 years. The more I did it, the more ridiculous it all seemed--especially what the Bible said. And no results whatsoever were forthcoming from prayers--not even a word from god that he was not going to answer this or that prayer. I finally de-converted more than 40 years ago and have never looked back.
New subscriber here. Great point you made toward the end of the vid, that when they meet former church-goers who are now atheists, believers fear that they might also lose their faith, and this causes a denial/defense mindset to kick in.
Admittedly, I thought a bit differently about Prager’s question at first. His major assertion from the very start is that something being beautiful (i.e. babies being born, paintings, etc.) implies the existence of a god and as such should make atheists question themselves.
Building a studio!!! Ahhh!!! I remember when your channel was just starting out with a few videos and a few thousand subs. It’s been so rewarding to watch you grow and gain the audience you deserve!! Looking forward to your future on this platform 😊🎉
I was raised mostly secular, so I never had active faith in the Christian god. When my mom got into religion, I had to decide what I believed. I still lacked faith no matter what my mom said or how often we went to church. During the past 10 years, I've thought a lot about my atheism. I wish I believed in a god or whatever but I just don't. I can't force myself to be convinced or force myself to believe.
It would really be a terrific landmark in broadcasting/media/internet history if Peterson did another roundtable, or just a conversation, about biblical issues or religion in general where he also invited you to be part of it. I guess that at 25k your pull isn't huge yet, but man what I wouldn't give to see you invited onto JP's podcast or him on your channel so that he could face a very smart, respectful and extremely knowledgeable atheist for once...
Oh my Force! I would LOVE to see Brandon debate Peterson. And for the exact reasons stated above, Brandon is incredibly knowledgeable, polite, respectful, WELL-RESEARCHED… and then there’s Jordan Peterson. Peterson’s hubris is what really gets me though, and his reach. With his credentials, speech (specifically pauses) patterns, and choice of words; it’s so easy for less educated or easily manipulated people to just accept what he spouts off as fact.
When I was a believer, especially as a child, I was told that asking for explanations of things I didn't understand was a lack of faith, and sinful, and it was not important that I understand it, only that I believed it.
As a thinking being, it's part of my job to doubt myself, to self-check my ideas and beliefs about the universe and myself. Sometimes I have to shelve an idea because I can't tell if it's true or not, or even useful or not; sometimes I have to change my mind about something because it doesn't jibe with other ideas or it just doesn't work at all, and that changes a whole lot of other ideas. Sometimes an idea doesn't get checked at all, just because I haven't thought about it for a while. It would be a blessing and a curse to believe some things I don't _have_ to check, but any collection of ideas that contains the idea that I don't have to check it is almost certainly full of error, because nobody ever checks it.
Today i read 1Cor and started to evaluate the idea that Paul might have invented the cross and crucifiction in the mid 40s, while in 1Thes, which sounds like another gospel, he is silent about most things. I know what you mean by self check. But i also have to state, that you only do that in a certain context, when it seems important to you. But how much do we simply believe without ever being aware? Do we even know what we believe? Those blind spots which hide the question: was mark even a christian by the time of writing? Question everything and realise that you just question the outermost peel of the onion. Am i even alive? I need a beer now. Some things must not be questioned.
"I see a beautiful sunset therefore I doubt my atheism" isn't remotely positive evidence for Prager's YHWH deity. His statement is a massive leap of logic. Thank you very much for your thoughts, Brandon.
This one got me. I really hope you get to have a conversation with more people “on the other side.” You are so articulate and when you say things I always think “yes, exactly!” But rarely get the chance to speak my thoughts and never so well as you. Thank you 😅 keep it up! I always look forward to your videos.
That story from 15 years ago? Yeah, that has all the earmarks of an "and everyone clapped" tale. If you have "That never happened" on your bingo card, you can mark it now.
I don't know how applicable this is, but another problem of the question is that "not doubting" does not mean "firmly believing/not believing". Some non-believer are just born into it, and didn't put too much thoughts in it. And from my personal (AKA not representative) exprience, "born-into" non-believers can be technically doubting their non-belief while having a subjective feeling more like "curious about faith(s)". Then again, the OG question was so unclear, the 399 did not raise their hand might just be waiting for Prager to elaborate...
When phrased as "Have you ever doubted your lack of belief in Christianity, Islam, Hindusim, -etc-- basically any religion currently known to us", I have never doubted my atheism. When phrased as "Have you ever doubted your lack of belief in a god ,any god?" then of course I have. I'll never understand the type who claims all god are impossible. Sure, we don't have evidence of one, but its's not 100% impossible that there could be some kind of god not described in any currently known holy book. Unlikely, but not impossible.
Right, I've finally caught up on all of your videos. Excellent job! I'm looking forward to watching your channel continue to grow and to what you'll do next. Thanks, and keep up the great work! 👍
This is the same question as ... "Do you doubt a lack of evidence?" Which of course no one doubts it, since its a statement of the "state" of things, not a belief.
It takes a lot of courage to admit we could be wrong, especially when most of our friends disagree us. If I point out a discrepancy in the Bible, my friends get upset with me rather than admit the problem. Then, to keep the peace, I quit talking about it. But I admire people who are brave enough to confront reality and then confront their friends about the inconsistencies....but I'm not that brave yet. Your videos are so helpful to people like me. Thank you so much for speaking out about the truth...it helps me be a little braver.
Since my beliefs now match my reality and I’m not constantly trying to make my mind believe things that are physically impossible, I’m no longer plagued by doubts!
As much as I love my partner and kid, the birth was SO FAR from a spiritual or rapturous experience that I have no idea what these guys are talking about. It was exhausting and messy in all the ways that evolved life is expected to be.
I love this channel. This guy is right on and says it how it is. I look at myself and cannot believe I use to believe in the irrationality of Christianity.
Brandon, once again you are right on the mark. You should have 100 million subscribers, because there is no doubt that at least 100 million people would agree with you. The problem being, of course, is that most people that share this general viewpoint (ie, religion is placebo for the masses) simply go on with their lives and don’t give much thought/attention to what the religious of the world are up to. It’s those of us that either have crawled out of the cults or have been harmed at the periphery of them that are here. And I personally am getting to the point where I realize that I simply need to move on and live my life and not pay any more attention to the insanity of Christianity let alone any other religion.
There was this one time when I tried to doubt my atheism. The event is more commonly called the big bang. Needless to say, some people didn't like the results.
I'm 60 years old. I came to my atheism by questioning my faith and understanding of religion. I've already gone through the "doubt" phase. I now become stronger in my belief and have lost my doubt.
Dave Allen: First day at School. “If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That’s the difference between me and your God.” Tracie Harris.
I have Beethoven to think for Beethoven's symphonies, not god. This is the problem with religious folk, they will cite things entirely unrelated to god as proof of their god's existence.
I’m really pleased you reviewed one of “the gangs” videos. I am a 2x cult survivor and the second cult I got pulled into was the alt right manosphere of Jordan Peterson. It’s so important to dismantle the bad ideas and beliefs that make the foundation for manipulative groups and influencers, lest you get sucked back into another one with a different facade. After coming out of a new age spiritual cult. I somehow found Peterson on RUclips. Probably because of my love for psychology. Probably because deep down I craved security and order. And that is what Peterson serves up, that is what Christianity serves up. There’s always “the good” part. We tend to forget that when we wake up and realize that as a whole it’s toxic. There’s always, always, those truths threaded in. That’s part of what draws you in. I’ve watched the Alt Right Playbook on YT and I understand what happened now and I continue to heal from the damage that both groups caused me. I continue to watch Christian deconstruction and research manipulation, abuse of power and what our exploitable vulnerabilities are so that I can identify people and institutions who use manipulative tactics for myself but most importantly so I can teach my daughter how to identify them. Religion is a big one, but if I nail that one and she goes off to be in an abusive relationship or join an MLM then I’ve failed. It never ceases to amaze me how the mechanisms for control and abuse are always the same.
My favorite comment of the day. Thanks so much for sharing. Your daughter is lucky to have such a responsible and considerate mother. Loved all this. Thank you!
I was raised Atheist. I "searched" for god when I was a kid but no one gave me any answers that made any sense. I had more than one religious leader tell me that their congregation was probably not right for me. They just wanted to stop me from asking questions that they themselves couldn't answer. I think that I would have become an Atheist even if I was raised religious. I have always been skeptical.
One other thing I will add to this conversation. There probably are a lot less atheists who doubt their atheism, but the reason is: Atheism doesn't describe how the world should be without a god. Christianity, Islam, etc. all describe what they should experience. When someone doesn't experience those things, they have reason to doubt the message. Since atheists were never told what they should be experiencing there is no incongruence with reality that they experience.
As a Black South African woman who's an atheist, I don't wanna lie I do sometimes doubt. As an African we have African spirituality [doesn't fall under theism IK] which creates a split in my brain sometimes but I think it's a lack of knowledge on the African spirituality part but with Christianity, the more information I get about the religion the less I doubt my choice
I honestly never question my atheism. I wasn't really raised religiously, at most performative Christian. There was a brief period in my early teenage years (around 11 years old), where I got curious what that was all about because a good friend of mine at the time was from a very religious family. They did Bible study after dinner that I sometimes participated in when I was staying at my friend's place. Some of the Bible quotes were really beautiful, and as an avid reader I decided that I would read the whole thing. I gave it a good try over a few months, and I think in the end I read about 3/4 of it (I skipped some parts of the OT). I had known before I started that I couldn't make myself believe in something just because I wanted to. You either do, or you don't. After reading the thing, I was 100% certain that I didn't want to, either, and I haven't had any reason to change my mind about that since. That's just to provide some context to where I'm coming from when I say this: I never made a decision not to believe in God. I haven't been raised to believe in God, and I never did. I do not doubt my non-belief in the God of the Bible (or any other God), just like Dennis Prager doesn't doubt his non-belief in Zeus. As the quote goes, I just believe in one fewer God than him. Can I completely exclude the possibility that there is some form of higher being? No. But I haven't seen any evidence that there is one, much less that there's one that gives a fuck about us. Not believing in things you have no evidence for is the norm. It is the default position, the null-hypothesis. I don't need faith to "believe" in atheism, it is not a belief; it is the absence of belief. Therefore, no, I do not question my "faith" (which is what Prager really is asking) like a Christian might do, because I have none. It is a nonsensical question to me. "I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ...Stephen F Roberts
Thanks for the link. I went to the site and gave them a blast:- "Jordan, Dennis and Ben ought to be ashamed of themselves at their portrayal of atheists. Plenty of us doubt our atheism. Besides I know of many believers who when asked "Could you be wrong?", answer "No". I know this because it's a question I often ask believers. (Most go silent. Very few answer "Yes"). I suspect all three men know better. In the context of Christianity, there is an irony when people who claim to love the truth, show a willingness to mischaracterise their opponents and critics. Besides, how do any of those three happen to know what God wants? It's always fallible humans telling other humans what God thinks, wants and does. As if they'd know." If you want to read a book which demonises atheists, have a go at Barak Lurie's "Atheism Kills". Ugh. What a book. Prager wrote the introduction. I used to post on Barak's forum for a while until he seems to have become annoyed enough to block me. The problem was, he'd write the silliest of things. And he's a lawyer with, I think, a PhD from Stanford.
Dear Brandon I wasn't raised in anything. I did go pretty deep into Christianity. I have beliefs. I have doubts. Your helping me. I will continue to watch your work.
"doubt" is inherent to a scientific approach to life. Atheism includes an acknowledgement that we don't know everything. As opposed to religious thinking.
I questioned the reality of God/Holy Spirit/Jesus and most of what is in the Bible regularly; I have only momentarily questioned my atheism a couple of times. No one can know either way 100% but, knowing the history of religion, basic science and a fair amount of world history indicates the probability of the existence of God is incredibly slim.
They're trying to portray Jacob wrestling with God as an exercise in philosophy--even though Jacob suffered a wrenched hip during the wrestling. Liars with ZERO integrity, the lot of them.
right! i actually had a huge segment on that part, but cut it. That story is very literal when convenient, but even when its taken as metaphor, its typically about prayer. It was funny to see Ben say it was about doubt, then Jordan said it was about orienting yourself against evil lol, and then they both agreed with each other. Oh, ok its jut a free pass to insert whatever you need!
👍 LOL. I about spit my coffee when I heard Ben try to go metaphorical on this one. Gen 32:32. “Therefore to this day Israelites do not eat the thigh muscle that is on the hip socket…..”
How did a panel consisting of Prager, Shapiro, and Peterson not spontaneously collapse in on itself into a blackhole of infinite grift and smug?
Not to mention how dense.
😂😂🤣🤣
Climate change is communist propoganda and jesus wants you to marry that 16 yr old n it should be illegal for a wife to not have sex with her husband.
Valid question!
@rboland2173 shabibo: religious shit sill make you struggle miserably!
Thats about it benny boy.. lol it will also make everyone around you strugglr n be miserable too XD
Maybe the 399 atheists who weren’t questioning their atheism had just spent decades QUESTIONING THEIR FAITH🤣🤔🤦♀️
yes! its very fair if some people who took so long before finally making their mind up, have it truly made up!
This was me. For 40+ years. I questioned all of it. Even atheism(and at a point what I called agnosticism). I still wonder about things, but doubt? I don’t think I have.
I felt being called out. Hello guys!❤
This is what I was thinking!
Exactly! I spent the better part of a decade slowly deconstructing and rebuilding.
One does not arrive at atheism by examining atheism. One arrives there by examining religion.
Such true words.
For them to even mention “doubting atheism” is to show a fundamental misunderstanding about so many of the words they’re using.
Yea, it's just the whole claiming anything that some atheists may think, is atheism type logic.
@@coruscanta Agnostic.
Oh boy, I love that! Isn't it true. I often think Gang Bangers must be theists, b/c in spite of life of crime and murder, I wonder if any really take the time to look at their beliefs?
I’ve never doubted my atheism.
To use the Wizard of Oz analogy…
Once you’ve seen the man behind the curtain, there’s no going back
Yup.
Amen! No pun intended! LOL! Such an accurate statement!
I personally have at times wondered if there is a god. I can't remember any point in time in which I seriously considered a _religion_ being true, though. If I ever change my mind, I will at most become a deist. I was raised in an atheist household though, so that definitely colours my perceptions.
Exactly. I saw that Fucker when I was a kid.
While I don't believe in a God or gods, I also don't believe there is no God or gods. I just haven't seen any objective evidence that convinces me that a god or Gods exist. I wouldn't have raised my hand, but only because the question makes no sense. Atheism is not a "faith" and requires no faith, so there is nothing to doubt.
What raises a red flag for me is when I hear someone saying that ALL of that bad group believe exactly the same bad things while ALL the good group believe exactly the same good things. I have learned over my 76 years that everything is complicated. No two people in any group think exactly alike. That’s life.
When I hear the words, good, bad or truth in a debate, I know its not.
Asking a question of the audience in a debate is just Rhetorical B/S and like a fortune teller doing a warm read on the crowd.
Let the Cult Propagandist PROVE his case, not just go into a conversion shuck-and-jive.
The only simple truth is this; "it's complicated"
I don't want to sound condescending. You always present well-though and researched views, and your presentation is first class.
It's just that the title of this video made me laugh out loud: " Dennis Prager & Ben Shapiro Are Not Being Honest"
Yeah, and in other news, water has been found to be wet.
ha! Got me. It is funny and also sad. there are actually things about some of these men, that I really enjoy/respect, but some like their take here, just kill me.
@@MindShift-Brandon I have been engaged in theological/philosophical discussions online now for more than twenty years, and about another twenty years before that in a less universal setting. I have met a lot of believers with whom I might disagree in central points, but who I can still respect for their sincerity, or their strength of character.
But in the same way - sadly even more so - I have found the most annoying, arrogant, dishonest and despicable people claiming to "speak for God", and, just as sad, these tend to be the loudest and most prominent.
How am I to respect anyone claiming to present "the Truth" when they constantly lie in that presentation?
@@MindShift-Brandon People have a lot less clarity of thought than we often think.
I remember how sharp I was at work or college in my early 20s and now at 40 my mind is so muddled and my memories so unreliable I feel like I'm just winging it in every meeting.
I think in particular public people have to wing it so much that they forget they are even doing it.
😂😂😂😂
@@MindShift-Brandon I don't see the title as dishonesty. I see it as the truth even if we know that of course they are dishonest. I would (but I am not the gentleman you are) have added that they are morons. I do not respect anyone who talks that way.
Thanks for listening to Prager , Peterson and Shapiro...
I couldn't have done it without vomiting 🤮🤢 😂
here to serve, lol!
And tearing my hair out. Totally bald in 60 seconds.
@klarmy8824 why do you think that MindShift is bald 😂😂
@ThAdversary lol!
JP is so fake. Have you ever heard him supposedly debate about god? All he does is use a massive ridiculous vocabulary and then look really serious and never just give yes or no answers and reasons he just gets into psychology and literally you can't follow it I've tried like three times on one of his debates and it wasn't even a debate it literally made no sense and then he keeps on saying god with that Canadian accent and I'm thinking to myself man you don't even believe in God you just like the idea and want to but have to fake it for your followers
Bottom line is that apologists *have* to strawman non-believers (even literally demonizing them), otherwise it would seriously undermine a large part of their dualistic good vs. evil narrative.
its true, its baked in for them. What a shame.
Actually, they sometimes also say that God is "working through" whoever, even someone indifferent or hostile to their beliefs. They want it both ways. Perhaps this is to reduce the dissonance they might feel over some such people encountering a ghastly fate upon their death.
Yep.
I’m an atheist and I have no doubts.
This question of if we doubt when we see nature or a newborn baby is a catch 22. If we say we have doubts about our atheism, then they get to say, "See? Atheists know that God is real. They're just too stuborn to admit it." But if we say we don't have doubts, then they say, "See? They're closed minded. They can't even consider the possibility that they're wrong." You can't win with these people.
agreed, they would twist it either way.
I don't agree that the birth of a baby or sunsets or the colors of flowers or new-fallen snow are miraculous. That's what the apologists seem to imply. Nature puts on some awe-inspiring shows, but they aren't miracles.
@@IheartDogs55 - I agree. It's inconsistent to see the good stuff in nature as "miraculous" while ignoring all of the ugly parts of nature. If a birth of a healthy baby, with no issues with the mother, is a miracle, then what do we call it when lions rip open a pregnant boar and eats its young?
I think nature is pretty incredible and does imply something higher and beyond that we don't understand. Whether or not that's Christianity is a totally different question. They always want to conflate the two, as if if a god exists, then it MUST be the Christian god, which does not follow at all.
They might as well ask, "do you ever doubt your atheism when you see your own shit in a toilet?"
Seriously, the process that produces it is AMAZING, digesting and extracting what you need to stay alive from food.
If babies are a miracle from God, so is shit, but they never talk about that.
Making a baby is just another bodily process like digestion. No miracles, we know exactly what they are.
Most of us are actually among those believers who did question their beliefs until we became atheists or agnostics. So we’ve already been there, done that and got the T-shirt.
lol yes~!
It's actually hard to be an atheist. It's hard to do the research and deep introspection before walking away from the faith you were raised in. It's hard to figure out what person you want to be in this world without an external framework telling you what you should be. There's no easy list to fall back on.
right! that was such a wild and inaccurate remark from Ben.
I struggled with that, too. In time, I just realized that you don’t need religion to be a good person.
@@MindShift-Brandon If someone is utterly certain he is right and he's scornfully told he's full of shit by a lot of people, he's going to feel persecuted and that other people with the same conviction are too. He COULD consider that maybe he's wrong, that scornful disagreement is not persecution, or that the scorn he gets may be from something other than kneejerk hatefulness - but any of those are difficult and uncomfortable things to consider and he's not paid for that.
I literally had this thought the over the weekend...repeatedly. In church, they tell you what to think, how to feel, what to do....they manage every single detail of life. Now, I've gotta figure this out myself and what if I'm wrong...I've wasted so much time in religion, I don't have a lot of time and chances to get it wrong. This is truly exhausting!
@@anita10674 You are capable of deciding how to live your life.
Honesty and Prager go together like orange juice and toothpaste
ha! dont know that much about him yet, but based off this, id agree.
Exactly 🤢🤮
🤣🤣
Prager is a smart man until he addresses questions of religion. He claims he knows what God thinks and wants. Don't trust him. And he certainly does not understand that it is a lack of valid evidence that leads to atheism.
After I left, I never looked back or felt insecure about my step. There are too many gods and religions for any of them to be “true”. They are just another product of culture and history.
Makes total sense. I really see both sides here.
Yep. The common thread here is people.
Brains are wacky and imprecise and lazy and we're all stuck with one.
The fact that so many people believe in the supernatural isn't surprising or indicative of anything other than the duct tape and chewing gum nature of our cognition and the work that it takes to avoid falling victim to it.
Even as a life-long atheist, I often ask myself if I might be missing something and there might be something out there that is real that leads all these billions of people to believe in some sort of god. But for all of my 35 years on this world, I have never seen anything even halfway concrete that points in that direction. It doesn't stop me from questioning myself, though. I'm fairly certain I'll keep questioning all of my convictions until I'm either dead or senile.
yes indeed. I get those of us who are so sure or it was never real to them enough in the first place to make it to a point of consideration. Thats very fair, but its such a base of my life for so long, that i will probably always gut check myself, not just on this but on everything.
I wondered that too! Then I became a born again Christian, truly came to understand it, and realized it's a bunch of abuse.
I have spent the last few years listening to scholars such as Bart Ehrman and James D. Tabor, along with ReligionforBreakfast, UsefulCharts, etc.
Once you understand the 5 W's (and H) of the biblical Canon and combine that knowledge with the skeptical philosophical arguments - you sit firm in your atheism.
Sure, there is always the curiosity of not knowing for certain, but the only thing that could change my mind is an indubitable personal experience.
@@andrewc1205 : personal experience can definitely be supremely convincing, but if I am to believe an all powerful god exists, I'm expecting *everyone* to share the same personal experience that will end centuries if not millenia of disagreements (if not worse) on the nature and even existence of said god.
@nicolasandre9886 agreed!
A universal experience, so to speak.
Yet, all we have is "Divine Hiddeness" and favoritism from this Christian god.
Having been "liberated" from the brainwashing and conditioning of society (for both religious and animal right aspect) recently, sometimes I question if those apologetics are sincere in making their argument, or they are just "trapped" and must prevail with their defense of religion. The level of dishonesty is beyond comprehension.
yes, thats kind where I arrive toward the end of the video. Theres only two options left at this point, you know you are wrong (at least about atheists) so you are just lying, or you dont know you are wrong, and that would take massive levels of bias and willful ignorance imo.
@@MindShift-Brandonliars or idiots.
Neither being eniviable XD 'tips fedora and goes back to reddit to decry all theism just as they said i would'
@@MindShift-Brandon Ben Shapiro is lying, knowlingly, all the time though and so is Prager. Ban Shapiro has been going on about how the left goes after the person, while the right doesn't care about your feelings. In seminares where he teaches people to discuss their views, he said that you had to go after the person and not the argument. There are videos online. Benny boy also has videoes where he explains topics where he wilfully goes out of his way to create a false narrative, on topics that he has spoken closer to the truth before.
Prager has MODIFIED studies in his videoes! You cannot edit what studies say and have doctorated images in your video and then claim ignorance.
They are just hacks that know that they have to lie to keep their base happy. They might even believe they serve the greater good in doing so, but they cannot claim ignorance.
They both create narratives and choose their arguments depending on the viewing demographic of the video. Shapiro to a higher degree than Prager.
Peterson is even worse. He goes from the bible being a book of events that happened, ALL of them, to some have happened some have not, to that they might have happened but who can say, to they are nice stories that he of course does not believe is true except for the wisdom the stories can teach us.
Peterson, with the right audience, is an atheist. With another audience he is a creationist.
There people should not be taken serious in any setting.
There is too much money at stake for them. Tax exemption on churches in USA is a gate wide open for businesses.
@@ChillAssTurtle hahahaha.. or simply decent character deficient (a.k.a extreme ignorance and utter low self awareness) which imo is the most likely and common cause of these "unbelievable" biased arguments
I love how you spoke about the importance of nuance with atheists. Our lack of belief is definitely more of a journey than an event.
Thanks, Chas!
Dennis is such a duplicitous person. Pretending to run a university even though he's been called out.
I don't know all that much about him, planning a deep dive!
He's a classic example of what a dumb person thinks a smart person sounds like. His delivery can seem thoughtful and patient, but the content may as well be coming from Rush Limbaugh.
@@MindShift-Brandon hes essentially a conservative grifter lolcow. None of his fellow conservatives actually take him seriously, especially after what hea said about p*rn in this series, and further on his interview with @PintsWithAquinas
@@MindShift-BrandonJust a heads-up - doing a deep dive on Dennis will be something akin to Andy Dufresne's escape from Shawshank 😂. Make sure to pack some mind-cleanser.
Point of interest: some of his videos are now part of the Florida school curriculum.
The few I’ve seen are riddled with historical RetCons.
When I was deconstructing my beliefs, my father once asked asked me "What you you think about people who deconstruct their beliefs?" I started to get really nervous because I thought he had noticed a change in me or something. But I answered with something to the effect of "I think they are people who are examining their faith and are trying to figure out what is true." His response was "I think they are people who listen to devils instead of listening to God." Yikes!
Holy shit! Yikes indeed. Even more proud you were able to break free
When I deconstructed I can't tell you how many times I had people say that Satan got me or something similar. It's soooo sad how deeply brainwashed they are.
@@billguthrie2218same. It’s all they got.
That is an implicit admission that those beliefs won’t withstand questioning. If there was confidence that the examination of the belief would strengthen the belief, the questioning would be framed as righteous.
Satan got Adam and Eve to sin by questioning God's Word. If it is God's Word, it's not good to question it. That thought process is logical. There are many good reasons to believe it is God's Word, the most substantial of which is fulfilled prophecy like Isaiah 53 or Daniel's prophecy of four empires.
Morning! I have no idea why this launched an hour early today, but thanks for being here! Also wanted to say. I love that we all don't agree on the poll question. We don't have to. Both answers are valid, and a lot of it comes down to the impreciseness of the question. Anyways, I'm just happy to be on a side that doesn't require full agreement and where can still be civil about any disagreement. Cheers!
It didn't.
It is because of daylight saving time.
In India, it launched at usual time
Yes, once again, if you didn't have children and if you weren't married and if you were homosexual I would ...oh, wait...
I’m okay with that! Perfect way to start my work day. :-)
thanks!@@CharlieEarthRoast
I've never been a theist. I can't say that I've ever had doubts about my position. What exactly would I be doubting? "That Beethoven sure could compose a damn symphony, maybe there is an all powerful being that loves us." "Oh that was a horrific tragedy, maybe I'm wrong and demons are real." Being an atheist frees me from doubt as I have no belief that relies on faith to remain solid.
Imagine arguing that "doubt" adds validity to your claim. I bet flat-earthers experience more doubt than round-earthers, too. I wonder why that is. Must be that flat-earthers are more sincere in searching for truth, right?
Couldn't be that they doubt because their position isn't supported with evidence!
@@vickigroesbeck1104 I mean doubt does add credibility and validity to your claim: a scientific theory is a hypothesis that’s has failed to be rejected, not a a hypothesis that has been demonstrated to be fact. The pinnacle of our knowledge is borne of constant doubt in the form of testing and trying to force a hypothesis to fail until we simply run out or ways to disprove it. And as we come up with new ways to dismantle hypotheses we try again over and over: doubt is PRECISELY how we arrive at truth. Without doubt how else could one shed the unnecessary baggage of gods, magic, and the supernatural in general? Doubt, properly performed, is just a great filter of knowledge.
@@ToastUrbath Yes, you are absolutely correct. The "problem" of course is that literally _nobody_ is capable of doubting and questioning and testing everything. I'm pretty sure that Australia exists, but I don't spend _any_ time considering how I could verify that it's not some elaborate global joke or conspiracy (let alone doing any actual experiments). Nobody has the time and resources to verify _everything,_ we all must accept _some_ things - and the less spare time someone has, the less they can spend it on such explorations, the more they just have to accept (when it comes to topics where they have to make a judgement that is, otherwise, one can simply dismiss claims as irrelevant and not care whether they're true or false - for me, that'd for example be String "Theory").
And just in case someone reads this and wants to point out that belief in their god - or rejection of those claims - _of course_ has a huge impact on my life: Well, so does belief in the interdimensional monster that pops up at random under your bed and will eat you alive if you haven't cleaned it's spot that very day. You could suffer a horrible death any day if it were true. But I very much doubt there is _anyone_ on this planet who has spent any time whatsoever "doubting their disbelief" in that.
@@ToastUrbathtotally agree, the problem only emerges when you ignore the introspection that comes with doubt and dismiss all the questions by taking faith in some higher power
@@jj_verona I think I would argue that doubt which fails to result in introspection does not qualify as doubt. What good is it to have questions if they warrant no consequence? Even if nothing actually changes, you have doubted wrongfully, there should be some amount of weight attributed to the changes which may be necessary and if that weight scares you into conforming the previous ideas(confirmation bias) then you probably never had any doubt in the first place. You sought answers without any respect for the consequences that may arise. This is not doubt, this is the opposite: it is a rhetorical question. It is an assertion that the question only serves to arrive at bad answers or at least answers we don’t want to accept. It is an assertion of apathy: it is a fruitless question and therefore purposeless as it makes no difference had you not questioned in the first places.
The persecution complex some christian in the US have is is baffling to me, beacuse its the group doesnt face such a thing at all while being the loudest about it. This is while there are tons of christian and other religious ppl around the world who are actually being murdered for their beliefs. Suffering that is sometimes furthered, ironically, by the US.
Agreed!
I laugh each Winter Holiday Season when the inevitable “War On Christmas” gets trotted out! 😆 Is Santa still waiting for his Purple Heart for all the Xmas ornament shrapnel he’s taken? 😆
The sheer existence of any alternative belief system, without groveling deference, feels like persecution to those Christians. That's the standard they expect in the U.S. - likely because they've HAD that environment here for centuries and the American historical perspective tends to be really, really near-sighted.
This seems to be a very American thing. I call it, “oh you have cancer? Well, I got a hangnail! What about ME!!!!!!”
I was at the mechanics getting an oil change and this complete stranger announced to all of us sitting quietly waiting room that god was "punishing her right now". She was so proud, so happy about her "trials and tribulations".
At the time I was still going to church, I looked at her, thinking to myself "something's wrong, I gotta re-think this".
When he said " we struggle, you don't " it almost fealt like a dehumanizing statement aimed at people who have never been of faith or are formerly of faith. I cannot tell you how much I've struggled with my deconstruction. I've connected the dots and I didn't like the image that it created. I think it's a common tactic of organized religion to dehumanize people's and groups that it doesn't agree with. Just more proof of how insidious it can be in my opinion.
Agreed! That was the worst part
I had a coworker who I discussed Christianity with on occasion.He outright said to me towards the end of a conversation that he too has doubts and it's part of being a Christian. But at some point you have to just believe. You can't go too far down that rabbit hole because it leads to bad places. I know it sounds like I'm making that up. But I swear he said it. They are trained to not follow their doubts. And I asked him why not seek out those lines of thought. Clarify them, wouldn't it make your faith stronger to face those questions. Nope. Leads to bad things. But that's where the conversation ended. Don't know if he thinks that doubt is a product of Satans deceit, or if hes just repeating words he was told when he was younger. It's ok to doubt but don't stray too far kinda stuff.
I have had doubts, but only because the thought of hell was so traumatic that it took into my mid 20s to shake. I remember being a teen and Pascal’s Wager made so much sense. Then realizing that’s not the way to think, and learning about other hells from different religions helped me finally shake it off for good
I never believed and was brought up in a somewhat religious home. Hey maybe should start a religion called "I am better than vincentclark" At least I wont threaten to kill you if you are wong about something.
Something happens when atheists debate Prager on his show. They become cowards and forget their best arguments. Saw this with a few top Atheists. It was unbelievable. Harris and Dawkins I think. Prager is reckless and better than everyone, he thinks. Smug. How could a good god want non-believers to suffer? Well if god is malevolent... that's the answer or he doesn't exit.
Prager may not believe all atheists to be evil, but he just really does not understand how easy it is for us "non-wired" to see the hundreds of flaws in the Bible and Quran.
No proof of god. Maybe a Big Bang god with terrible or no Morality? Jesus wanted eternal hell, supported slavery, made no predictions that came true, divided families, knew nothing of Germ Theory or DNA or the Planets or that earth was the third stone from the Sun (Jimi Hendrix knew that). If abortion is so Bad why does Jesus and his slaughter of innocents not get scrutinized.
My parents didn't raise me under a religion, so I never really gave it much thought until much later. I witnessed my Dad, who was raised Catholic, waffle on what he believed especially when things were hard. But he doubted those beliefs since being a kid himself (got in trouble for asking questions).
I think any personal leaning started when a kid in high-school invited me to Easter service. I went and saw them so into the ceremony (raised hands, closed eyes) and thought that so curious. But the sermon was about how "we can only have success through Jesus, our good works only but through him" and I was offended by that idea. Why does Jesus get credit for my work?
Afterward the kid asked me what I thought and I said "it was ok. I didn't agree with everything the pastor said though." The look of bafflement on her face..... Like it would/could never occur to her to actually have an opinion on what the pastor preached.
I think that disturbed me a bit.
I love how "struggling with one's believe" is supposed to be a sign of honesty.
Like: "Oh yeah, those people with spoons never question their way of eating soup. Us fork-users struggle often with the question of whether we should use a spoon, but we always come back to our fork!"
Meanwhile, a spoon-user: "So, I have tried using a stick, a fork, a knife, a straw, my hands, two chopsticks, a really small sieve, an eyedropper, and sheer force of will, and so far the way to eat soup that makes the most sense to me is using a spoon. Sometimes I think about using a straw, but then I notice the vegetables swimming in the soup and quickly realise that it wouldn't work as good."
"What would it take for you atheists to believe in a Santa Claus that lives in the North Pole and flies in a sled pulled by reindeer to visit every house on Christmas to come down the chimney and leave presents?"
"I honestly can't think of anything that would convince me that's true"
"You are so closed minded!"
ha! yes though there is a difference between believing and having doubts, but i get it. For many of us, theres jjust no possibility and thus no doubt. just
@@MindShift-Brandon the issue is that they are treating absurdity as a possibility. They are asking you to believe, not just in some intelligent cause of existence, but in a talking donkey, worldwide flood, a guy who was executed by Romans and who then came back to life and flew into a cloud, and other nonsense.
@@hamobuExactly
@@hamobu And if you could believe all that - you really would have to admit to an ability to be wrong about _everything_, not in a merely intellectually humble sort of way but in an abandon all rationality way. And if you get that far, if you cannot trust any inference from any experience, you AGAIN have no grounds for believing in their religious account. If I COULD sincerely be a biblical literalist, I'd reasonably have to consider also that I've had a total mental breakdown that would account for that set of beliefs, and of the two, the total mental breakdown is at least as reasonable.
Daniel predicted the rise and fall of four empires. Isaiah named Cyrus before Cyrus was born. Isaiah also predicted someone would die for our sins. Jesus Christ appeared to over 500 eyewitnesses following His resurrection. The technology is here for people to pay for things using an implant in their right wrist, which means the mark of the beast may not be far off. Etc. etc. etc.
Funny, it is always the beautiful things that people cite as reasons for believing in God. They never mention the horrendous parts of life like parasites, natural disasters, birth defects, cancer, etc.
Yep, the same people (or, at least the more tolerant Christian types) who think that Jesus was a 1st century Gandhi preaching nothing but tolerance, love, and peace. They ignore all the intolerance, exclusivism, hate, and violence he preached in other places. The takeaway: people make god in their own image, because they ultimately just worship their own ego.
Exactly. Fine-tuned when you are the 1% and are resting on the shoulders of masses of generations that died trying to make this little percentile of the earth habitable.
@@MindShift-Brandonespecially when just a short time ago we didn’t get the opportunity to view nature as beautiful. Every tree, bush etc, every moonless night was a threat to survival and might harbor our death in myriad ways.
A biblical worldview accounts for the things we know in this life. It does not shy away from any of the realities that men face--the good and the bad. God created men to have perfect fellowship with him; man's sin brought his judgment into the world (see Romans 5:12). He gives us good things alongside which we also know suffering, disease, decay--all outcomes of men's rebellion against him (see James 1:17, Genesis 3:16-19). Both point us to God and our need to be reconciled to him through the only Savior of men, Jesus Christ, lest we perish in our sins (see 2 Corinthians 5:18-21).
@@smpittsburgh264 There's no such thing as a "biblical worldview." My challenge to you is to name something in this "biblical worldview" that all Christians would agree on across all denominations.
A little more concretely: can you Christians name a single ethical principle that all Christians ultimately endorse and agree that it comes from (their) god? Outside of the virtue of believing without evidence, what is there? For example, even among Christians there has ALWAYS been moral disputes, and too many to mention. (Just look at the 10,000+ denominations!) Let’s talk about slavery, for example and turn the clock back to the 19th century (and earlier) and consider the stark moral difference between those Christians who declared that (their) God was on the side of slavery, and those who claimed (their) god was on the side of abolition. Both sides INSISTED that "the biblical worldview" was what THEIR side upheld!
But did their god ever step in to make his views apparent?
Nope. Of course not. He left it to the pro- and anti-slavery Christians to kill each other to settle the issue of what god apparently thinks is the right position.
Dennis Prager, Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson are probably the three most intellectually dishonest people you could ever get on a stage together. Entertaining video, of course, but it's a legit struggle to watch this from the cringe overload.
Also, I would love to watch a debate against any of these guys, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Kyle Kulinski of Secular Talk has had an open invitation to Ben Shapiro to debate for years and it's been crickets from Ben.
That's because Kyle isn't an 18-22 year old that Ben can steamroll with his rapid fire BS and gish-gallop. He hasn't done much, if any debating, after he got laughed out of the room after trying to run his crap past a BBC commentator (a really conservative one no less).
I agree where Prager is concerned, and perhaps also Shapiro. Peterson, on the other hand, is honestly intellectual inasmuch as he reads and studies widely. I’ve spent almost 25 years in academia, and it’s clear when someone (whether teacher or student) is reading widely and when they’re thinking carefully about what they’re reading; Peterson shows this regularly. There is an arrogance to Prager, and Shapiro appears to be more interested in being right, but Peterson has shown again and again that he listens and is willing to have a conversation rather than patronise or shut down the other person.
@thefuturist8864 we must be seeing very different videos of Peterson if you really believe he's above patronizing or shutting down someone. He may be widely read, I'll give you that for sure, but he's 100% arrogant when he pretends to be an expert in fields he knows very little on, and when he straight up lies about his experiences and qualifications.
"Doubt is uncomfortable, certainty is ridiculous." Voltaire
Thank you! The three of these guys are intellectually dishonest. I've seen them do this in debates. Also, it's obvious to me that their end goal is just to get to heaven, not that "doing good for others out of love" stuff. It's selfish and it's their selfishness that plays out in their mental gymnastics to twist meaning to fit their narrative, not listening to facts in the face of their interpretations. Intellectually and morally dishonest.
my pleasure, thanks for watching and the input!
Btw, Peterson is an atheist 😂
His "God" is the Divine Level of his hierarchy of values. He won't come straight out and say it, most of the time. Depends on his audience.
Does Judaism have a concept of Heaven? Exactly how do orthodox Jews view the afterlife?
Prager and Shapiro are Jews. Never heard them say that they accept Jesus as their lord and savior.
@@misanthropicmusings4596 Shapiro sort of confuses me on this point. I'm not sure if he's advocating for Christianity or just religion (Abrahamic) in general. He runs in the same crowd.
This talk of uncertainty reminded me of a part of a song by Tim Minchin:
"So I resist the urge to ask Storm whether knowledge is so loose-weave of a morning when deciding whether to leave her apartment by the front door
Or the window on her second floor."
Not gonna lie, I'm really sick of being told that life is meaningless, or that my life "has no meaning" as an atheist. Life having no inherent meaning or purpose means that no one is imposing a meaning on me. I decide for myself. That's LIBERATING! I have autonomy over how I see my own life! Why would religious people see this as a bad thing?
I consider myself an atheist yet my belief system includes how much more beautiful the process is when experienced in reality. I know what a rainbow is and how they are created and that still amazes me every time I see one.
love that.
I'll stop my car to get out and look at a rainbow. I loooove rainbows, even though I have known the Noah story is bullshit for quite a while now. They are just fucking cool.
@@yzettasmith4194not bullshit it actually happened....
@@ttdttd4211except it's impossible for two of every unclean animal and 7 pairs of every clean animal to fit into a 300 cubit ark.
Most of us left religion through questioning. Why would we suddenly stop?
Exactly!
Let's be clear here: Dennis Prager pulled a bait and switch. He asked if people doubted, and then when they said no, used that to say that they never reflect on their beliefs or understanding, or consider new information. Those are NOT the same thing.
There was a video I watched some time ago, I believe from Logicked, that covered a man addressing and assuaging the doubts of a girl who'd emailed him. He quotes the message she sent him, and it wasn't some idle curiosity, some casual self-reflection. Doubt was eating this person alive. She had found aspects of the faith that didn't add up with each other, and had no way of addressing them, but was desperate to hold onto what she'd known her entire life. So she sent her email hoping that someone had answers for her, that they could explain what she'd missed that made it all make sense despite the glaring problems she had discovered for herself. While it may be an extreme example of it, the fact remains that THIS is what Doubt is.
I self-reflect regularly. Whenever I watch one of these videos where they try to say "here's a good reason to believe", I think it through and judge for myself whether it's a good reason or not, giving it a fair shot. But I have NEVER, not ONE time, doubted the nonexistence of the Christian God. No one has ever given me a reason that was actually good. Or even decent. I've seen flaws with every bit of logic thrown my way, and that over the course of months and years of listening to what people claim is their best work. I've also seen flaws in the logic people use to try to prove evolution and other secular concepts wrong, and again have never had cause to think "wait, is it actually incorrect?" It's all cohesive and works cleanly with all the other pieces, including from entirely unrelated fields of study. What's there to doubt? There are no seeming contradictions like there are all across religion. No need to create fanciful stories to explain away discrepancies. Everything fits together like a perfect little jigsaw puzzle. The more I learn, the more things click. Whereas my experience coming across countless religious and ex-religious people is that the more they learn about THEIR topic, the more they notice how poorly everything fits, and can't find ways to connect things up without stretching the imagination to breaking point.
The fact that so many Christians regularly experience this kind of doubt, not casual self-reflection but unnerving unease, a feeling of the ground shaking beneath their feet, is a sure sign of its failure to reflect actual truth. Doubt in the sense used by people actually experiencing it is a warning sign, your subconcious screaming at you that something is wrong. When doubt creeps up on you, go out of your way to listen to it. Let it ask the question, and then go try to answer it. If the doubt is unfounded, an answer will appear, your unease will vanish, and you'll be more knowledgeable and more confident as a result. But if the "answer" you get is "don't think about it, I'm sure it makes sense to someone", or "how dare you question someone as awesome as God?", that should be a pretty good sign that there IS no answer, and they want you to ignore your unease so that you don't recognize it for what it is: A neon sign that your belief does NOT add up.
thanks for this! well put and appreciate your thoughtful reply.
@leob3447 Very well said, and I'm glad to hear the world makes more sense to you now. I also have to draw particular attention to the phrase "doubts of any significance". That's really the heart of what I was driving at. While there's a definition or two in the dictionary that supports the "just checking my ideas on the off-chance" usage of the word Doubt, it's mostly used to convey doubts strong enough to cause discomfort or hesitation. Doubts of significance.
So rewording my main point using these terms: We may all doubt sometimes, but the truth will never give you cause for doubt of any real significance. If it's causing you trouble, it's significant doubt, and significant doubts are the warning sign of untruth that I spoke of.
Thanks for that wording, it really helps to have this on hand for people who do use the word doubt that way, which I wouldn't even consider unreasonable, despite personally disagreeing. Better to meet them where they're at, so long as their definition isn't wildly off the mark.
@@MindShift-Brandon Love your channel ● just found you today • subbed❤
@riluna3695 Wonderfully put❤❤
Hey Amber, Welcome! So glad to have you here.
Thank you for another well thought out presentation. It is a pleasure to see a rational logical mind at work.
Thanks so much, Tony!
Hey there, I've recently started my deconversion journey and your videos have been of great help! As you can imagine, most of my inner circle of people is very religious and I've felt so lonely because I don't have anyone to talk to about my feelings. Your videos show me that I'm not alone and that I'm on the "right" track. Thank you so much for the amazing work that you do and all the time and effort you pour in your content, I really appreciate it. Cheers from Uruguay 🇺🇾
Thats lovely to hear. I am so happy to be able to help in any way. Reach out if you need anything
Yup, many atheists know how hard this is for you having been there. I debate and checkmate thiests all the time. It's cathartic, amusing and educational.
I write "Checkmate routines" and checkmate one after another as they go down in howls of protest.
Here's one such example I wrote that anyone can use.
100% checkmate, right off the bat, every time:
*Question:* Does this omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent presuppositional, so-called "god…"
…that you want us to believe in…
_…know…_
*…who* will go to "heaven"…
…and _who_ will go to "hell"…
*_👉 before_* 'he' "creates" each person?
*It's yes or no.*
WHEN they try to immediately dodge the question, *pin them* as you're one move from putting them in oh so satisfying *checkmate.*
You say this:" Why ya dodgin' the question Pilgrim❓
*Then repeat the question.* and just keep doggin them and chasing them 😂 The second time they try to dodge you say:
"I didn't think so. I got you scared and runnin', boy. *Checkmate.*
Or something like that. But it needs to be a ruthless, cruel, stately-eyed, no holds barred, vindictive approach, depending on the individual debate.
That's how I roll and I kick theists asses daily.
I have written scores of C&P checkmate routines and I gave a 100% win rate.
For the pol I've never doubted my atheism, if something confuses me I try to look it up and find the answer. Though I have doubted naturalism cause I find it hard to believe ghosts or some super natural beings exist.
i think both answers make a great deal of sense. So many of us struggle and doubt so much for so long, that once we finally reach a conclusion, theres not much reason to still doubt. Others have been so indoctrinated for so long or are so truly skeptical that there will always be doubt etc. Thanks for being here!
If I'm not voluntarily engaging about religious belief, and if it's not being shoved into my face in violation of my boundaries, then the best way to describe my attitude toward religion and god-belief is "disregard." I just don't care about it that much. I was raised secular, and I've always thought the stories and such were silly and can't believe people take them seriously.
Thanks, Brandon! You're the best! ❤
Thank you very much!
Again another awesome video. I have stopped sharing or even asking my old Christian friends to watch your videos I presented them and tell me what they think. No one wants to talk About these issues or just totally come up with excuses as to why they are right and we are wrong. Love ya brother keep it up. Warrior on 👍🏼😁
appreciate that. Thanks so much!
I notice that they are talking about how Christians question and struggle, and how it is the hard way, but they are famous people patting themselves on the back rather than digging into each other’s ideas. This was a great opportunity for them to question and be as precise as possible, but that was not on any of their agenda.
that, i think, was my biggest disappointment. What a missed opportunity.
Imagine being in a place with a large number of people seated around you and the speaker starts saying: "Raise your hand, if ..." Nope. I won't raise my hand. I won't stand up. I don't want to greet those around me. Please don't count on my participation. I am perfectly fine quietly listening.
💯👍 Its a form of manipulation and treating the audience like school children. They can go ____ themselves.
Since I reached the point where I was comfortable calling myself an atheist, I've never doubted. I spent some time as an agnostic, and during that time I was unsure - that's why I was agnostic.
Thanks! You have been incredibly helpful to me in my life. Keep up the good work
Thats so lovely to hear. Thank you for the kind support!
Great video!
I appreciate your candor and venerability. I went from an evangelical Christian, to a “ freelance monotheist”, to an agnostic , to finally an atheist. I spent so many years as an agnostic because I thought there must be a god out there somewhere if nearly every culture has some sort of concept of a god. But I eventually realized I did not believe a god existed and admitted to myself that I was an atheist.
I sometimes wonder, because I am a big science-fiction fan, if there is a god beyond time and space. But then I think, why would there be? God is simply an idea to explain the unexplainable. He gets more and more remote and small the more we learn.
Agree! And thanks for the kind words
From now on I start my day with one of your videos, you restore the faith in myself every time I listen to you. Thank you
That is so kind to hear. Thank you for the encouragement!
Personally, I wrestled with my doubts until I was as sure as I could be before deciding I was an atheist. And that took decades. - btw another great video, this channel is a tremendous asset to dialogue on religion.
I've just found your channel and wanted to say that, in addition to the concise and well-spoken analysis in your videos, I really appreciate the overall tone of your presentation. It's gentle but not patronizing, pointed but not smug, and able to express frustration without being antagonistic. They're the kind of videos I love because they feel like something that I could potentially show to my Christian parents to talk about atheism and that they would actually be open to hearing (esp. given their age).
I feel like a lot of other content is made with a 'by athiests for athiests only' mindset, that I can watch on my own, but I would never show to a Christian that I wanted to start a productive discussion with.
Thats hugely encouraging! Im heartened to hear it also as thats a large part of my goal
I was a believer and attended practically every church service for the first 23 years of my life. The preachers and Sunday school teachers continually made blanket assertions about various aspects of our thinking or our character or accusing us of doing things that were against god's will, and then they lectured us that we should change or quit doing these things. The funny thing was that most of what they accused us of did not apply to me and did not apply to most of the people I knew; or, as far as I could see, it was entirely harmless. But the preachers and Sunday school teachers never asked us--they simply made assumptions. Finally getting tired of that and the manipulation and hypocrisy of the churches, I quit going to church but kept my faith. I reduced my religion to reading the Bible, praying, and witnessing. I did this for an additional 6 years. The more I did it, the more ridiculous it all seemed--especially what the Bible said. And no results whatsoever were forthcoming from prayers--not even a word from god that he was not going to answer this or that prayer. I finally de-converted more than 40 years ago and have never looked back.
Richard Feynman said, always leave room for doubt.
New subscriber here. Great point you made toward the end of the vid, that when they meet former church-goers who are now atheists, believers fear that they might also lose their faith, and this causes a denial/defense mindset to kick in.
Hey David! Welcome, and thanks for being here. Appreciate that!
One key thing. To question something is not the same as to doubt something.
Do it! Deconstruct the WHOLE thing!! I'd watch every minute .... episode!?
Maybe... Thanks!
Sounds like a recruitment slogan “become an atheist, never worry about anything ever again! Zero stress, zero indecision!”
Admittedly, I thought a bit differently about Prager’s question at first. His major assertion from the very start is that something being beautiful (i.e. babies being born, paintings, etc.) implies the existence of a god and as such should make atheists question themselves.
Building a studio!!! Ahhh!!! I remember when your channel was just starting out with a few videos and a few thousand subs. It’s been so rewarding to watch you grow and gain the audience you deserve!! Looking forward to your future on this platform 😊🎉
That’s incredibly kind of thank you very much!
I was raised mostly secular, so I never had active faith in the Christian god. When my mom got into religion, I had to decide what I believed. I still lacked faith no matter what my mom said or how often we went to church. During the past 10 years, I've thought a lot about my atheism. I wish I believed in a god or whatever but I just don't. I can't force myself to be convinced or force myself to believe.
It would really be a terrific landmark in broadcasting/media/internet history if Peterson did another roundtable, or just a conversation, about biblical issues or religion in general where he also invited you to be part of it. I guess that at 25k your pull isn't huge yet, but man what I wouldn't give to see you invited onto JP's podcast or him on your channel so that he could face a very smart, respectful and extremely knowledgeable atheist for once...
man, i just sent Peterson's contact an email actually. I am sure I am not a big enough fish yet, but I would love to speak with him about atheism!
Do everything in your power to achieve that! Bribe them if you must haha but that would really be HUGE. Thanks for doing this!@@MindShift-Brandon
@@MindShift-BrandonIf you were able to debate Jordan Peterson, I believe you would be providing a public service. You are well reasoned & polite.
If there's anything, we as your supporters can do to help make that happen, I know I would and I'm sure others would as well.
Oh my Force! I would LOVE to see Brandon debate Peterson. And for the exact reasons stated above, Brandon is incredibly knowledgeable, polite, respectful, WELL-RESEARCHED… and then there’s Jordan Peterson.
Peterson’s hubris is what really gets me though, and his reach. With his credentials, speech (specifically pauses) patterns, and choice of words; it’s so easy for less educated or easily manipulated people to just accept what he spouts off as fact.
When I was a believer, especially as a child, I was told that asking for explanations of things I didn't understand was a lack of faith, and sinful, and it was not important that I understand it, only that I believed it.
Dave Allen: First day at School 😵💫
@@hellepost1439Dave Allen is hilarious!
That is truly sad - to discourage a child from curiosity and learning.
"Doubt all you want but never dare to change your mind"
As a thinking being, it's part of my job to doubt myself, to self-check my ideas and beliefs about the universe and myself. Sometimes I have to shelve an idea because I can't tell if it's true or not, or even useful or not; sometimes I have to change my mind about something because it doesn't jibe with other ideas or it just doesn't work at all, and that changes a whole lot of other ideas. Sometimes an idea doesn't get checked at all, just because I haven't thought about it for a while.
It would be a blessing and a curse to believe some things I don't _have_ to check, but any collection of ideas that contains the idea that I don't have to check it is almost certainly full of error, because nobody ever checks it.
agree!
Today i read 1Cor and started to evaluate the idea that Paul might have invented the cross and crucifiction in the mid 40s, while in 1Thes, which sounds like another gospel, he is silent about most things.
I know what you mean by self check. But i also have to state, that you only do that in a certain context, when it seems important to you.
But how much do we simply believe without ever being aware? Do we even know what we believe?
Those blind spots which hide the question: was mark even a christian by the time of writing?
Question everything and realise that you just question the outermost peel of the onion.
Am i even alive? I need a beer now. Some things must not be questioned.
"I see a beautiful sunset therefore I doubt my atheism" isn't remotely positive evidence for Prager's YHWH deity. His statement is a massive leap of logic.
Thank you very much for your thoughts, Brandon.
right, just silly nonsense.
Ben, David, and Jordan sure don’t seem to struggle with knowing exactly how everyone else should live their lives.
This one got me. I really hope you get to have a conversation with more people “on the other side.” You are so articulate and when you say things I always think “yes, exactly!” But rarely get the chance to speak my thoughts and never so well as you. Thank you 😅 keep it up! I always look forward to your videos.
That made my day. Thanks for the kindness! Hopefully as the channel grows, i’ll get those kinds of opportunities.
That story from 15 years ago? Yeah, that has all the earmarks of an "and everyone clapped" tale. If you have "That never happened" on your bingo card, you can mark it now.
I don't know how applicable this is, but another problem of the question is that "not doubting" does not mean "firmly believing/not believing". Some non-believer are just born into it, and didn't put too much thoughts in it. And from my personal (AKA not representative) exprience, "born-into" non-believers can be technically doubting their non-belief while having a subjective feeling more like "curious about faith(s)".
Then again, the OG question was so unclear, the 399 did not raise their hand might just be waiting for Prager to elaborate...
yes, many layers here for sure.
When phrased as "Have you ever doubted your lack of belief in Christianity, Islam, Hindusim, -etc-- basically any religion currently known to us", I have never doubted my atheism.
When phrased as "Have you ever doubted your lack of belief in a god ,any god?" then of course I have. I'll never understand the type who claims all god are impossible. Sure, we don't have evidence of one, but its's not 100% impossible that there could be some kind of god not described in any currently known holy book. Unlikely, but not impossible.
Right, I've finally caught up on all of your videos. Excellent job! I'm looking forward to watching your channel continue to grow and to what you'll do next. Thanks, and keep up the great work! 👍
Holy cow! thank you for this level of support to the channel! I Appreciate you being here so consistently.
Well said. Thank you.
Thank you much!
This is the same question as ...
"Do you doubt a lack of evidence?"
Which of course no one doubts it, since its a statement of the "state" of things, not a belief.
I just discovered your channel and am really enjoying it so far. Thank you for what you are doing!
Welcome!thats great to hear. Thank you!
Just as an idea or suggestion, an interesting video expose you could do would be a full book report on Prager's so called Rational Bible series.
It takes a lot of courage to admit we could be wrong, especially when most of our friends disagree us. If I point out a discrepancy in the Bible, my friends get upset with me rather than admit the problem. Then, to keep the peace, I quit talking about it. But I admire people who are brave enough to confront reality and then confront their friends about the inconsistencies....but I'm not that brave yet. Your videos are so helpful to people like me. Thank you so much for speaking out about the truth...it helps me be a little braver.
That is very very kind of you to say. Thanks for the encouragement
Since my beliefs now match my reality and I’m not constantly trying to make my mind believe things that are physically impossible, I’m no longer plagued by doubts!
Thats a great way of wording it. Thanks!
@@MindShift-Brandon Thank you! I really enjoy your videos and your perspective!
As much as I love my partner and kid, the birth was SO FAR from a spiritual or rapturous experience that I have no idea what these guys are talking about. It was exhausting and messy in all the ways that evolved life is expected to be.
Very fair presentation and good points. You have stomach to listen to those folks talking. I cannot put up with them.
I love this channel. This guy is right on and says it how it is. I look at myself and cannot believe I use to believe in the irrationality of Christianity.
Thats very kind. Thank you. And me too!
"it's hard to do what we do, it's easy to do that thing they do that we have never done or have any experience with"
Brandon, once again you are right on the mark. You should have 100 million subscribers, because there is no doubt that at least 100 million people would agree with you. The problem being, of course, is that most people that share this general viewpoint (ie, religion is placebo for the masses) simply go on with their lives and don’t give much thought/attention to what the religious of the world are up to. It’s those of us that either have crawled out of the cults or have been harmed at the periphery of them that are here. And I personally am getting to the point where I realize that I simply need to move on and live my life and not pay any more attention to the insanity of Christianity let alone any other religion.
So aptly named Exodus. Exodus from reason, rationality, logic and epistemological thought.
Yo Brandon I love your videos!
Thanks so much!!
There was this one time when I tried to doubt my atheism. The event is more commonly called the big bang. Needless to say, some people didn't like the results.
I'm 60 years old. I came to my atheism by questioning my faith and understanding of religion. I've already gone through the "doubt" phase. I now become stronger in my belief and have lost my doubt.
Dave Allen: First day at School. “If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That’s the difference between me and your God.” Tracie Harris.
I have Beethoven to think for Beethoven's symphonies, not god. This is the problem with religious folk, they will cite things entirely unrelated to god as proof of their god's existence.
I’m really pleased you reviewed one of “the gangs” videos. I am a 2x cult survivor and the second cult I got pulled into was the alt right manosphere of Jordan Peterson. It’s so important to dismantle the bad ideas and beliefs that make the foundation for manipulative groups and influencers, lest you get sucked back into another one with a different facade.
After coming out of a new age spiritual cult. I somehow found Peterson on RUclips. Probably because of my love for psychology. Probably because deep down I craved security and order. And that is what Peterson serves up, that is what Christianity serves up. There’s always “the good” part. We tend to forget that when we wake up and realize that as a whole it’s toxic. There’s always, always, those truths threaded in. That’s part of what draws you in. I’ve watched the Alt Right Playbook on YT and I understand what happened now and I continue to heal from the damage that both groups caused me.
I continue to watch Christian deconstruction and research manipulation, abuse of power and what our exploitable vulnerabilities are so that I can identify people and institutions who use manipulative tactics for myself but most importantly so I can teach my daughter how to identify them. Religion is a big one, but if I nail that one and she goes off to be in an abusive relationship or join an MLM then I’ve failed. It never ceases to amaze me how the mechanisms for control and abuse are always the same.
My favorite comment of the day. Thanks so much for sharing. Your daughter is lucky to have such a responsible and considerate mother. Loved all this. Thank you!
@@MindShift-Brandon and thank you for all your hard work. I can’t get enough of your videos.
I was raised Atheist. I "searched" for god when I was a kid but no one gave me any answers that made any sense. I had more than one religious leader tell me that their congregation was probably not right for me. They just wanted to stop me from asking questions that they themselves couldn't answer. I think that I would have become an Atheist even if I was raised religious. I have always been skeptical.
I would approve of you speaking for us, Brandon. I hope you are invited to such a discussion, someday.l!
Very kind. Thank you so much
One other thing I will add to this conversation. There probably are a lot less atheists who doubt their atheism, but the reason is:
Atheism doesn't describe how the world should be without a god. Christianity, Islam, etc. all describe what they should experience. When someone doesn't experience those things, they have reason to doubt the message. Since atheists were never told what they should be experiencing there is no incongruence with reality that they experience.
Thats a great point
I have doubts about EVERYTHING! But I would be reluctant to respond as an audience member to any question posed by prager
As a Black South African woman who's an atheist, I don't wanna lie I do sometimes doubt. As an African we have African spirituality [doesn't fall under theism IK] which creates a split in my brain sometimes but I think it's a lack of knowledge on the African spirituality part but with Christianity, the more information I get about the religion the less I doubt my choice
I honestly never question my atheism. I wasn't really raised religiously, at most performative Christian. There was a brief period in my early teenage years (around 11 years old), where I got curious what that was all about because a good friend of mine at the time was from a very religious family. They did Bible study after dinner that I sometimes participated in when I was staying at my friend's place. Some of the Bible quotes were really beautiful, and as an avid reader I decided that I would read the whole thing. I gave it a good try over a few months, and I think in the end I read about 3/4 of it (I skipped some parts of the OT). I had known before I started that I couldn't make myself believe in something just because I wanted to. You either do, or you don't. After reading the thing, I was 100% certain that I didn't want to, either, and I haven't had any reason to change my mind about that since.
That's just to provide some context to where I'm coming from when I say this: I never made a decision not to believe in God. I haven't been raised to believe in God, and I never did. I do not doubt my non-belief in the God of the Bible (or any other God), just like Dennis Prager doesn't doubt his non-belief in Zeus. As the quote goes, I just believe in one fewer God than him.
Can I completely exclude the possibility that there is some form of higher being? No. But I haven't seen any evidence that there is one, much less that there's one that gives a fuck about us.
Not believing in things you have no evidence for is the norm. It is the default position, the null-hypothesis. I don't need faith to "believe" in atheism, it is not a belief; it is the absence of belief. Therefore, no, I do not question my "faith" (which is what Prager really is asking) like a Christian might do, because I have none. It is a nonsensical question to me.
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
...Stephen F Roberts
"The easiest thing to say is theres no meaning to anything"said no atheist.
Right!
Thanks for the link. I went to the site and gave them a blast:-
"Jordan, Dennis and Ben ought to be ashamed of themselves at their portrayal of atheists. Plenty of us doubt our atheism. Besides I know of many believers who when asked "Could you be wrong?", answer "No". I know this because it's a question I often ask believers. (Most go silent. Very few answer "Yes").
I suspect all three men know better. In the context of Christianity, there is an irony when people who claim to love the truth, show a willingness to mischaracterise their opponents and critics. Besides, how do any of those three happen to know what God wants? It's always fallible humans telling other humans what God thinks, wants and does. As if they'd know."
If you want to read a book which demonises atheists, have a go at Barak Lurie's "Atheism Kills". Ugh. What a book. Prager wrote the introduction. I used to post on Barak's forum for a while until he seems to have become annoyed enough to block me. The problem was, he'd write the silliest of things. And he's a lawyer with, I think, a PhD from Stanford.
Dear Brandon I wasn't raised in anything. I did go pretty deep into Christianity. I have beliefs. I have doubts. Your helping me. I will continue to watch your work.
Appreciate that very much. Thanks!
"doubt" is inherent to a scientific approach to life. Atheism includes an acknowledgement that we don't know everything.
As opposed to religious thinking.
I questioned the reality of God/Holy Spirit/Jesus and most of what is in the Bible regularly; I have only momentarily questioned my atheism a couple of times. No one can know either way 100% but, knowing the history of religion, basic science and a fair amount of world history indicates the probability of the existence of God is incredibly slim.
very well said, Beggee!
We can certainly say our uncertainty is the better uncertainty out of the uncertainties to choose between.
lol i can dig that.
They're trying to portray Jacob wrestling with God as an exercise in philosophy--even though Jacob suffered a wrenched hip during the wrestling.
Liars with ZERO integrity, the lot of them.
right! i actually had a huge segment on that part, but cut it. That story is very literal when convenient, but even when its taken as metaphor, its typically about prayer. It was funny to see Ben say it was about doubt, then Jordan said it was about orienting yourself against evil lol, and then they both agreed with each other. Oh, ok its jut a free pass to insert whatever you need!
👍 LOL. I about spit my coffee when I heard Ben try to go metaphorical on this one.
Gen 32:32. “Therefore to this day Israelites do not eat the thigh muscle that is on the hip socket…..”
If you listen to Viced Rhino, the hip-thing could be an ancient euphemism for “hitting below the belt”. Which is a euphemism for a dick-punch…