Cybermen fussing about in the land of fiction that would never work, he said wryly. (Legend of the Cybermen for those unaware) You would think if they’re doing a Wizard of Oz thing they could do a parallel of how seven has lost some of his heart.
Didn't World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls establish that the Cybermen had multiple origins and that they weren't a single race of beings with a coherent history, but rather a stage in technological development that different societies arrive at independently? I think that might put to bed any attempt at making sense of Cyber continuity. Great video, by the way - I'm always glad to see this series is still going strong.
I'd kind of assumed that the people on the ship in World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls had come from Mondas originally, and that the creation of the Cybermen on their ship was just another branch of the same experiment that was being undertaken on Mondas itself. I could be wrong though.
The Doctor has this to say about the Cybermen in The Doctor Falls: "They happen everywhere there's people. Mondas, Telos, Earth, Planet 14, Marinus. Like sewage and smartphones and Donald Trump, some things are just inevitable. " That's what suggests that the Cybermen are an evolutionary process, not a single race with one origin.
Ah, yes, I'd forgotten that line. I still think that the Cybermen we see in that story are an offshoot of the original Mondasian experiment, but certainly that would seem to suggest that other, wholly unrelated, Cybermen could well exist.
@@roryahconnolly or (and hey if you like it that’s great) it’s a lazy throwaway like that’s only there because Moffat can’t be arsed with continuity and has always looked down on those elements of the franchise and it’s fandom.
@@dommoore6180 Blaming Moffat for Who's lack of continuity seems more than a bit flawed to me, the show has never worked looking at it through a continuity focused lens and Moffat dropping a throwaway remark to address the 'Cyberman Question' seems like doing the opposite of what you've said. What else could he do, other than laboriously go through the series and tie every Cyberman appearance together in service to hardcore fan-wankery?
Something I love about the Cybermen is how they beautifully yet inadvertently wound up as perfect parallels to the Daleks. The Daleks were allegories for Nazis snd more broadly exclusionary ideologies like fascism. The Cybermen were allegories for the Soviets (or politically were the opposing force to the Nazis pre-WW2) and more broadly collectivist ideologies like Communism. The Daleks were born from the mind of a singular madman and the Cybermen were created through parallel evolution. There is even a certain elemental symbolism to them. The Daleks are associated with fire and passion because their debut implied they were born from the radioactive fallout of nuclear war and are defined by hatred of other life forms. In their debut the Cybermen are associated with ice and coldness because they debuted amidst snow (appropriate given the Soviet allegory beneath them) , their most famous story has them awaken from an icy sleep and their M.O. is that they are incapable of love, pride, hate, fear or any emotion. A Song of Ice and Fire if you will! The Daleks are monsters because they are so extreme in what they feel but the Cybermen are monsters because they so extremely DON'T feel anything. In this sense they reflect the horrors of what humanity could become if we don't temper our emotions and hurt outwardly OR if we suppress our emotions and hurt inwardly.
But seriously, great job as always. This has become one of my favorite subscriptions on RUclips. Very much appreciated the use of all the Cybermen tunes from over the decades.
This novel takes place in 2006, and in between 'The Invasion' (the 70s) and 'The Wheel in Space' (21st century) from the Faction-Cybermens' point of view, according to Banks' version of the timeline. This story is supposed to feature the 'Wheel'-versions of the Cybermen. It is said that they have only three fingers (eliminating all but the 'Moonbase' and 'Wheel'-designs), but also tear drop-eyes, which leaves only the 'Wheel' ones. While I find Banks' take on Cyber-chronology interesting, I agree with what was said in the video - it is no longer up to date. A lot of stuff that has come out since seems to contradict it
It’s one of those novels which stands out know mainly cous it’s the one with the Cybermen in it and written by David Banks but that’s only really why so can’t wait to learn what this story is actually about
I also noticed that weird, unfinished theme of fiction and reality coming together. Both it and the whole Wizard of Oz thing felt really forced. In general, Iceberg feels like they threw a bunch of good ideas together but didn’t know how to fit them into each other. It's a book I don't think anyone would care about if David Banks hadn't written it. Also, there's that one comic where the Cybermen are actually the Voord from Keys of Marinus...it even got a shoutout as one of the various places Cybermen evolved on in NuWho.
Wait, is this the first Iceberg review not to mention that its '"F**k you, you f**king w**ker!" He was angry.' and that it killed swearing in the books lol?
I loved Banks's _Cyberman_ reference book when I was getting into _Doctor Who_ fandom in the early 1990s, and I was eagerly looking forward to _Iceberg_ as a result. It... didn't particularly impress me. In addition to everything you mentioned, it was one of the earliest books in the Virgin New Adventures range where the overwhelmingly dark/depressing atmosphere just turned me right off. It becomes something of a trend at this point, and I'm still not a huge fan of it.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the profanity (at least on par with Transit) and ridiculously OTT (for Who) sex scenes and overall soap opera vibe of the Antarctica base.
I read this when it was released. I agree the story is a bit of a mess, although at its core it was not that bad. The issue is that individual characters don't really tie together and their relative importance to the narrative comes into and then fades out of importance. What I really liked at the time was the seriousness in the way the Cybermen were treated and the process of conversion, the storage of organs and body parts and the mixture of biological and technology that Kit Pedler theorised the creation of the Cybermen on. Classic who never really focussed on this (Attack of the Cybermen excepted). RTD with his log saw machine chambers got the idea, but This has largely been missed subsequently. Just taking a body and wrapping it in an external protective coverall (as the Mondas/World and Time enough episodes seem to suggest) would not create much in the way of special strength or abilities without an external exoskeleton.
Cybermen fussing about in the land of fiction that would never work, he said wryly. (Legend of the Cybermen for those unaware)
You would think if they’re doing a Wizard of Oz thing they could do a parallel of how seven has lost some of his heart.
Didn't World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls establish that the Cybermen had multiple origins and that they weren't a single race of beings with a coherent history, but rather a stage in technological development that different societies arrive at independently? I think that might put to bed any attempt at making sense of Cyber continuity.
Great video, by the way - I'm always glad to see this series is still going strong.
I'd kind of assumed that the people on the ship in World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls had come from Mondas originally, and that the creation of the Cybermen on their ship was just another branch of the same experiment that was being undertaken on Mondas itself. I could be wrong though.
The Doctor has this to say about the Cybermen in The Doctor Falls: "They happen everywhere there's people. Mondas, Telos, Earth, Planet 14, Marinus. Like sewage and smartphones and Donald Trump, some things are just inevitable. " That's what suggests that the Cybermen are an evolutionary process, not a single race with one origin.
Ah, yes, I'd forgotten that line. I still think that the Cybermen we see in that story are an offshoot of the original Mondasian experiment, but certainly that would seem to suggest that other, wholly unrelated, Cybermen could well exist.
@@roryahconnolly or (and hey if you like it that’s great) it’s a lazy throwaway like that’s only there because Moffat can’t be arsed with continuity and has always looked down on those elements of the franchise and it’s fandom.
@@dommoore6180 Blaming Moffat for Who's lack of continuity seems more than a bit flawed to me, the show has never worked looking at it through a continuity focused lens and Moffat dropping a throwaway remark to address the 'Cyberman Question' seems like doing the opposite of what you've said. What else could he do, other than laboriously go through the series and tie every Cyberman appearance together in service to hardcore fan-wankery?
Wonderful video as always man. It's such a joy to see someone sifting through such a obscure era of doctor who in which I hold a lot of affection for
Something I love about the Cybermen is how they beautifully yet inadvertently wound up as perfect parallels to the Daleks.
The Daleks were allegories for Nazis snd more broadly exclusionary ideologies like fascism. The Cybermen were allegories for the Soviets (or politically were the opposing force to the Nazis pre-WW2) and more broadly collectivist ideologies like Communism.
The Daleks were born from the mind of a singular madman and the Cybermen were created through parallel evolution.
There is even a certain elemental symbolism to them.
The Daleks are associated with fire and passion because their debut implied they were born from the radioactive fallout of nuclear war and are defined by hatred of other life forms. In their debut the Cybermen are associated with ice and coldness because they debuted amidst snow (appropriate given the Soviet allegory beneath them) , their most famous story has them awaken from an icy sleep and their M.O. is that they are incapable of love, pride, hate, fear or any emotion. A Song of Ice and Fire if you will!
The Daleks are monsters because they are so extreme in what they feel but the Cybermen are monsters because they so extremely DON'T feel anything. In this sense they reflect the horrors of what humanity could become if we don't temper our emotions and hurt outwardly OR if we suppress our emotions and hurt inwardly.
But seriously, great job as always. This has become one of my favorite subscriptions on RUclips. Very much appreciated the use of all the Cybermen tunes from over the decades.
Ultra excited for Blood Heat next time!
DopeyDragon Yeah, Blood Heat is a great book and so is Left-Handed Hummingbird and Conundrum, so we are about to enter an awesome time for the range.
At this rate of posting, it will be a good 10 months for the entire Monk Arc to finish
ICEBERG is a flawed and, as you said, somewhat incoherent book, but, I think, also has many truly fascinating ideas.
This novel takes place in 2006, and in between 'The Invasion' (the 70s) and 'The Wheel in Space' (21st century) from the Faction-Cybermens' point of view, according to Banks' version of the timeline.
This story is supposed to feature the 'Wheel'-versions of the Cybermen. It is said that they have only three fingers (eliminating all but the 'Moonbase' and 'Wheel'-designs), but also tear drop-eyes, which leaves only the 'Wheel' ones.
While I find Banks' take on Cyber-chronology interesting, I agree with what was said in the video - it is no longer up to date. A lot of stuff that has come out since seems to contradict it
Been waiting for this for a looong time!
It’s one of those novels which stands out know mainly cous it’s the one with the Cybermen in it and written by David Banks but that’s only really why so can’t wait to learn what this story is actually about
I also noticed that weird, unfinished theme of fiction and reality coming together. Both it and the whole Wizard of Oz thing felt really forced. In general, Iceberg feels like they threw a bunch of good ideas together but didn’t know how to fit them into each other. It's a book I don't think anyone would care about if David Banks hadn't written it.
Also, there's that one comic where the Cybermen are actually the Voord from Keys of Marinus...it even got a shoutout as one of the various places Cybermen evolved on in NuWho.
Wait, is this the first Iceberg review not to mention that its '"F**k you, you f**king w**ker!" He was angry.' and that it killed swearing in the books lol?
I love these ! When are the next batch coming out??
I loved Banks's _Cyberman_ reference book when I was getting into _Doctor Who_ fandom in the early 1990s, and I was eagerly looking forward to _Iceberg_ as a result. It... didn't particularly impress me. In addition to everything you mentioned, it was one of the earliest books in the Virgin New Adventures range where the overwhelmingly dark/depressing atmosphere just turned me right off. It becomes something of a trend at this point, and I'm still not a huge fan of it.
I litualy can't wait for review 19
Yes!!!
I'm surprised you didn't mention the profanity (at least on par with Transit) and ridiculously OTT (for Who) sex scenes and overall soap opera vibe of the Antarctica base.
I read this when it was released. I agree the story is a bit of a mess, although at its core it was not that bad. The issue is that individual characters don't really tie together and their relative importance to the narrative comes into and then fades out of importance.
What I really liked at the time was the seriousness in the way the Cybermen were treated and the process of conversion, the storage of organs and body parts and the mixture of biological and technology that Kit Pedler theorised the creation of the Cybermen on. Classic who never really focussed on this (Attack of the Cybermen excepted). RTD with his log saw machine chambers got the idea, but This has largely been missed subsequently. Just taking a body and wrapping it in an external protective coverall (as the Mondas/World and Time enough episodes seem to suggest) would not create much in the way of special strength or abilities without an external exoskeleton.
How did I miss this?
You keep saying Exscape. What is that? Is it some spaceship?
Wait it has Wizard of Oz Motifs and it’s not about Ace ?!
1. Very adroit review. 2. David Banks is extremely bangable and I'd bottom for him.
Hard agree.
Any Cybermen story in the Moffat era is super messy
7991 0313 I find he really capture the body horror of the Cybermen.
*Any Cyberman story is super messy
WARNING! WARNING! UNIT DATING CONTROVERSY ALERT!!!