When building a deck, I usually save 36 slots for lands and refine it afterwards. I’m glad to see that it’s seems like a sweet spot for you guys and others.
Agreed; I go to 33 if the average cost is on the low end and 35 is high. In some cases I go to 33 + 1 utility land if it boosts the strategy. In cases of 2 or 3 color decks I try for 26 or 24 basics (7x3 / 12x2) then use the remaining slots for duel lands and any color lands like command tower
wow! this video.. i've always struggled with this.. really helped out.. I usually use 35 lands at least and have noticed getting mana stuck a lot. The Moxfield mana average section is great.
I like the hypergeometric distribution method to determine how many lands you should put in your deck, as well as turn 2 mana ramp cards. Mine came out to 37/11
Finally started using Moxfield and love it so much! Got all my decks loaded and starting on my trade binders. It’s super awesome and wished I had done it sooner
I counted the decks I had on Moxfield and I average 30.5 lands. Seems about right for me as my curve is way lower at an average cmc of 2.4 . I range anywhere from 27-38 lands in a deck depending on how the deck is structured and what I need most. This is definitely not the normal amount of lands an average deck should have. I play low curve and efficiency so my decks can function on less land in order to mitigate the negative impact of not having enough mana. It does also mean I get hurt the most when mana flooding.
Moxfield ad guess: 7:17 Edit: so close. I usually start at 40 lands (including mdfc lands) before I even start building the deck, then I go down one land for every three rocks that cost two mana or more, and then one land for every two mana accelerants that cost less than two mana. It usually leaves me at about 36-37, depending on how spiky I feel like being with that deck.
The count changed for me with mdfc's. I was a 36-37 land guy, but I now tend to run closer to 40 since I can literally replace slots with quality cards that also ensure I curve out. I only play three color or less and I don't spin my wheels, so I want to hit a land every turn in the early game without having to jump through hoops. Of course aggro decks and green decks can shave a few.
@@satsuki5679 I see it this way. I would have always liked to play close to 40 lands, but you couldn't afford the dead draws. With Mdfc's I can guarantee I curve out and have a big bomb like Sea Gate as a backup
Hard disagree on playing less lands if you're playing more ramp spells. If you're playing ramp spells, it's to get ahead of your normal curve, so if you're missing land drops to do that then you're effectively paying mana for lands that you would normally play for free. Otherwise, agree on everything you said :)
36 is my default. Then I judge about going above or below that based on: number of ramp spells, deck curve, commander cost and relevant abilities, and finally how much draw/looting there is in the deck.
Love the channel nerds. And you have tapped into niche magic discussions (such as this one). The shorts are great as well (comming from someone who doesnt generally like shorts) Keep up the good work!
Honestly, I was playing a lot with 33 lands (WITH mdfc). After playing a lot, I'm playing 37-38 Lands unless I've a ton of ramp and mana dork like 13-15 total. There is nothing worse than having a bad hand, then mulligan and still having a bad one again.
I had someone say 50 lands in a deck, I then played against them, a board wipe later and they just drew land after land. He was saying how low my land count was. I had 36 lands and 2 mdfcs.
Awesome video, I needed this, regardless of my deck I always make sure the land count and mana base is well made, it's the most important part of the deck imo
So last night was my first time using Moxfield and no lies were told!!! I managed to brew a new deck in less than an hour!!!!!!! I didn’t even get to tinker with the tabs yet so I’ll make sure to take that force of will down to 0👍🏽
This is probably one of the best videos when it comes to land counts in Commander that I've seen. You shouldn't set an amount of lands for every one of your decks. That being said, I think the best way to figure out how many lands you need in a deck is to go with 35. Then play a few games, if you seem mana hungry, add lands, if you seem flooded, remove some. Over time from doing this you'll get a decent balance of lands. It just takes time. The following are some stats from my own decks. My average CMC across 17 decks is 3, the average land count is 34. My lowest average CMC is 1.93 with 30 lands (Meria with 7 fetch lands, $698), my highest is 4.2 with 29 lands (Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, $1787). My lowest land count is my Daretti, Scrap Savant ($1470) deck with 28 lands and an average CMC of 3.65. In that deck my goal is to just to play mana rocks, toss my high mana cost artifacts in the graveyard and then cheat them out. It makes it where I almost never paying full mana for a spell. My highest land count is Korvold($1276), with 40 lands and an average CMC of 3.12. That is including 13 fetches for the sac triggers and draw. The last time I got mana screwed was playing my The Scarab God deck ($1314). The average CMC is 2.84 CMC with 35 lands. I got a total of 2 lands in six turns and managed to win on turn eight from combat damage in a 3 player game. Rarely do I get overally mana flooded, because I run enough draw that I can compensate for the lands and just end up discarding them if they aren't needed.
An equation of such that I try to utilize L=lands M=mana rock/dork R=ramp spell C=(colors - green) B= base 50 lands A= average (cmc/mana value) D= card draw ÷ 3 (B - R - M) + C + (A × 0.5) + D = L (50 - 7 - 15) + 4 + (3 × 0.5) + 3 = 36.5
This seems weird to me. Usually intense card draw or other ways of card advantage such as impulse draws or graveyard stuff should decrease number of lands instead of increasing because you can quickly delve deeper into your deck to find lands. Shouldn't the last plus be minus instead? Your calculations don't add up(((
30-40 seems fair although it does depend on the type. In my Landfall deck i use 46 lands with Aesi which gives me double land drops and a draw each time. With some large ramp spells that can pull 5-8 lands onto the field and thin my deck before drawing then play impactful spells like tooth and nail or to be able to hard cast huge creatures.
My core decks average land count is 33 (including MDFCs), going as low as 31 But those include a treasure deck (Negan), legendfall (Reki, the History of Kamigawa) and reanimator (Karador, Ghost Chieftain); decks that have ways to mitigate the risk of low land counts.
It’s also important to play your deck and see how it runs. I have a mono G Ghalta deck that runs 32 + 2 0mv rocks and an average MV/CMC of 3.7, but it runs a LOT of ramp, especially in the 1 drops.
Try this: 5 swamp 5 mountain 5 island 8 forest 5 plains Wooded foothills Windswept heath Misty rainforest Verdant catacombs Zagoth, ketria, indatha triome Spara, jetmir, ziatora triome Command tower Wood elves Nature's lore Farseek Three visits This is a greenspine manacore and can run a 5 color deck like wet ice on wet ice. You can run the capenna forest-based fetch's in place of triomes and the basic land type (forest type) duals from kaldhiem(snow) or dominaria united instead of the triomes. The actual fetchlands arent completely necessary but help alot. Then its just adding a few green tap/any color manadorks til your engine is peak. As most manabases are not terribly budget friendly i am submitting this because ur-dragon is BOSS and deserves a high power/highly resistant manabase.
@@Badassest it’s funny because the fetches are really good options in ur dragon. The community has placed them to where wizards will never reprint them in a standard set again. I wasn’t expecting the triomes to be so expensive.
@@jamesgratz4771 yeah its ridiculous. I would like to think if anything- at least invest in one really good 5c manabase because eventually it will take over any format
@@Badassest yeah I’d like to have at least one of every fetch, shock and triome. The pain lands have been great for me too and those are way cheaper ! Dominaria United helped drop the price to a buck or two ! Wizards in general sucks at making mana bases not affordable
@@jamesgratz4771 wotc is printing in ways that make it obvious to me everyone will need a solid 5c manabase and moreso it will allow everyone to play whatever they want
My Eight-and-a-Half-Tails deck runs 31 lands (low to the ground average mana cost, LOTS of land search/ramp) and my Azusa and Kozilek deck each run 39 on the highest end. So many different things in the 99/98 can vary the ideal number of lands in a deck let alone something as important as what the Commander itself is. Crunching numbers and actually playing are super important to the process of figuring out how many lands to run, and information sources like the Nerds are huge aids, especially for newer players. Good stuff!
One of the little pleasures of running a Yuriko deck is knowing you only ever really need 3 mana: one to cast an unblockable dork, and the other 2 to ninjutsu Yuriko. Everything else is just kinda icing on the cake, lol. :^)
I base land base off first style of play, casual, higher power, or cedh. I typically run 28-34 depending on the style of play but typically run a minimum of 10 rocks and maximum 14
As a guy who mostly plays W/U/x value piles 37 or 38 is usually my sweet spot Pack enough early card draw to make sure I hit the critical land drops, and put enough utility in the mana base to keep my mana busy during a flood.
From my personal experience with one free mulligan there is rarely any reason to ever run more than 34 lands. Pretty much all my decks run 32-34 lands (2.7-3.2 cmc) and I have very good experience when playing all of them. I have one clunky 35 land Timmy deck, but that one is just goofiness. Ramp is usually about 10 and I run 0 mana ramp in like 1 of 10 decks, yes I have a lot.
yea i'm on this number and reasoning, as well. Outside of lands-matter decks, if a deck has more than 34-35 lands (35 maybe for sans-green 3-4 color decks), that deck is typically running not enough ramp and has other mana base issues to begin with.
35-37 depending on CMC of the deck. Plus 10-15 ramps cards. I think it's important for any commander deck to have half of your deck, or little under to be lands and ramp. You'll have smoother plays for sure.
I want to shout out the Ixalan flip lands. The white one is good ramp in white, and the tokens it makes can be turned into angels with the enchantment. Treasure map is the best, and if used with smothering tithe it is an excellent source of card draw in white
When building I always plug in my mana base pretty much first with 37. Then when I get my first 100 I check the curve and subtract lands if it's a low curve. My lowest is Edric at 34. My Lord Windgrace and my Birgi burn decks both have 40. Windgrace is lands matter and Birgi has a bunch of X spells. I count MDFC's as spells first and don't include them in my land count. However if I draw them in my opening hand I play the land side.
Your commander definitely matters when weighing your aCMC - my Grenzo cheats creatures with massive cmc's in for 2 generic. while my Anje has 2 special considerations: madness means a much lower true cmc, and her whole thing is tossing cards until a win-con pops up, so I really just need to make sure I have consistent gas for the engine at hand, which is basically my point, so... ... great video guys!
I have a general starting chart for lands. It flexible based on deck, but this is how I start 2C w G - 36 2C no G - 37 (Not RW) 3C w G - 37 3C no G 38 4C w G - 38 WUBR - 39 5C - 39 RW - 40
I basically run 40 with 10 mana rocks in every deck (with 3-15 fetch lands and a wayfarers bauble, for deck thinning) but I also tend to favor commanders with strong card draw and search engines, or lots of mana sinks
I run about 28-30 lands in my Kozilek deck. You can obviously run less when half of the remaining 70 cards are mana rocks. And colorless is cool because your lands can help make up for the loss of colored effects.
My personal rule of thumb (let me know if it's crap) is: 40 land starting base For every 2 cards of ramp, remove 1 land. This could be anything from rocks to growth. Minimum 33 lands (one in three).
All 10 of my decks run 30-33 lands (the 2 with 33 include Maze of Ith) and 10+ pieces of 2 drop or less ramp. To be fair though all my decks are 3+ colors, run all their off-color fetches, and have pretty optimized mana bases (minus OG duals). I also pay attention to my mana curve and avg. cmc with all my decks coming in between 2.5 and 2.9.
So, before i watch fully. I saw a table on reddit where someone did the math on the statistics and percentages for optimal lands in a deck. 36 was the best optimal number from it. If i can find the link i sent to my friend, i can send it to anyone interested
I'm not very tech savvy, but I have my decks on Moxfield and have tried to tinker. A little video on some tips and tricks one day would be great! Don't know if that's possible or not? Either way keep the streak going! 💪
When you say lands does that meam Basic lands with no added effects? Or do things like nomad outpost or Bloodfell Caves count as well? I'm working with 21 basic lands and the rest are those extra effect types, either or mana, and so on to a total of about 40 ways to get land.
I try and avoid lands that come into play tapped, which is my gripe against MDFC’s. I still run a few and consider them in the same category as Cycle lands.
My Feldon deck can run smoothly with 33 lands. If you have enough rummaging or wheel effects, you don't need to bother with land drops. Feldon is also cheap, so most of the extra land is relatively useless.
I start with a 35 base line, then look at the average curve of my deck (minus the lands) and then add or subtract based what that number is. If it's less than 3.0, remove 1 land for each .5 it is. If it's above 3.5, add one for each one it is. This doesn't take into account for landfall decks.
Whats the right land count for commander? Depending on the Average CMC of your deck and the CMC of your commander. I tend to go for 35-40, av:37 with my standard ramp package of 7-10 cards averaging 2 cmc each. 3 examples of my decks with quite different strategies and land bases: - My lowest deck is 33 lands, FBL-OOPS Mono Blue, the low land count is fixed via card draw in general. - My highest is 40 lands, Korvold Landfall. LOL I recently added the Cultivator Colossus combo to draw out my deck for lots of landfall triggers and a well played Concordant crossroads to make my army of landfall tokens have haste... last game I got Scute Swarm to 100+ tokens in a single turn and swarmed my opponents. - My Raggadragga deck is 35 lands, mana dork tribal X spells. I could probably lose 2 more lands but I don't like being too dependent on one thing or another, 35 seems like a good balance. X spells are great for Raggadragga because they are variable in cmc, they can be used pretty much anytime, your not stuck with high cmc spells in your hand yet you can still cast the X spell for 7 cmc and trigger Raggdragga. According to the Prof. Tolarian academy your average commander deck should: Land: 37-38 Ramp:10+ Draw:10+ Removal: 6-8 Single target, 5 min boardwipes Creatures: 25+ Good video I was going to suggest a video about High cmc commanders and how to build accordingly. I have seen so many comments about high cmc commanders not being viable, they are fine you just have to build your deck a little differently like setting up an early game or boardwipes that will help your late game commander :P
My deck is a cmc of 2.7 not reducing things like blasmouous act or reduced costs on cards… im running i think 33-34 lands, but im thinking of going one more lower to add in one more mana elf… what do
my veyran storm deck runs 26 lands with like 5 or 6 mana rocks. and somehow wins consistently… why? i have no clue. i shouldnt get lands as often as i do
Moxfield gives two average mana values: one that includes lands and one that does not include lands: "The average mana value of your mainboard is 2.4 with lands and 3.22 without lands. This deck's total mana value is 238." I use the one the includes lands but I don't know if that's correct.
You probably want to be looking at the number without lands, as that'll give you the best idea of what an average spell costs to cast, so you know what number you need to be reliably getting to (as the nerds were talking about) :)
I aim for 38 to 40... usually I run 60 cards with about 30 being a mix of ramp draw and interaction. 30 being deck related, then commander plus sol ring plus 38 lands
Great content! Most of my decks have 37 lands including MDFCs. I have trouble finding that 3rd MDFC that really fits the deck, but I don't have any green decks yet.
My decks go from 32-34 lands, depending on number of colors and amount of ramp. My mono-red deck runs 31, but it has plenty of mana rocks and makes lots of treasures. Going over 36 lands is just asking to be mana flooded.
I find myself being super greedy. I run around 33 and 5 color is my favorite to run 🤣 the crazy thing is I don't struggle as much as you would think because of correct fixing and ramp
I have a Yarok deck that's got about 39 to 41 lands because of it being a landfall/permanent based deck. Most of my decks run 32-36 either way and I've seen one of my decks(which is my teetering cEdh deck) have less than 30 which worried me so I edited it a little.
Honestly the numbers that I'm seeing is crazy to me, I run between 28 and 33, I'm usually playing just fine, I also run a bunch of ramp usually though aswell (artifacts, mana dorks, and ramp spells too)
@@NitpickingNerds definitely true! I just feel like you're if you're only playing one mana per turn you're going to be behind, ramp is so important in that sense because it basically puts you a turn ahead every time
I tried to convince someone who didn't run a lot of mana dorks or rocks that ran less than 30 lands to run more. Couldn't convince him despite him complaining about being consistently mana screwed
Due to me aggressively mulling (even down to 5) and having a bunch of tutors (sword of the animist, tithe, land tax etc) my medomai deck ends up being at like.. 28-29 lands?
Nowadays I have a better respect for lands so typically run 35-38 depending on commander cost but ususlly don't go under 35. The ONLY exception was my higher powered magda deck because she only costs 2 and creates treasures.
I often have 34 to 37 lands in most decks Less if you have cheap consistent ramp and or card draw and artifact mana More if you have landfall or lands matter decks
Hi! new to magic, how do mdfc work? you can cast them as lands and then as spells? do you have to choose wich side to play when deckbuilding? thanks for the help!
I know this is controversial, but I consider hitting your land drops to be completely different than ramping. Ramping costs mana and gets the attention of your opponents (even if you are just trying to keep up with them), while hitting your land drops is free and normal. I even have opponents that will interact with my green ramp after I've missed land drops, because they assume I'll eventually catch up at some point. I wouldn't really add more ramp with the intention of running fewer lands unless my deck had some crazy synergy with the way I am ramping, or I had major color fixing needs. I think card draw is more effective at letting you successfully run fewer lands, since you see more of your deck in general, and it can find you something to mitigate the attention you are going to get. A lot of this comes down to playstyle and meta, but I figured I'd throw this idea out there. My general/generic land count is 37, while I have higher power decks with curves of 2.4-2.6 that run 33 or 34. I have a Kamiz Obscura Oculus deck that only runs 33 as well, since Connive lets me sift through my deck so much and I want to make sure I can take advantage of the ability (Raffine or Kamiz are great commanders for people who want to successfully get away with running a scandalously low number of lands btw 😉).
i started learning magic 5 hours ago and the correct answer is 99 lands.... because they are very cheap and you just summon the commander boy
So my friend. May I recommend the commander, child of alara? And mdfc cards?
I started playing Commander with the D&D set last year, so deck building videos are always appreciated!
(Moxfield @ 11:16)
Glad you enjoy the content
When building a deck, I usually save 36 slots for lands and refine it afterwards. I’m glad to see that it’s seems like a sweet spot for you guys and others.
36 is my fall back number
I also use 36. It is the number that has been the most consistent and backed up with math to boot.
Me too!
Mine used to be 36 for years. I found going up to 37 usually worked better for me though so that's my go-to these days.
I was literally going through my land counts this morning....good timing, appreciate it guys - I'm usually between 33 and 35 myself (modals included)
Same here. 33-35 feels like the magic number. Plus ramp, rocks ect.
Agreed; I go to 33 if the average cost is on the low end and 35 is high.
In some cases I go to 33 + 1 utility land if it boosts the strategy.
In cases of 2 or 3 color decks I try for 26 or 24 basics (7x3 / 12x2) then use the remaining slots for duel lands and any color lands like command tower
@@Holdendave1 Good Lord that's a lot of basics
@@Squee_666_9 thier playgroup may have a "back to basics" meta.
@@Radicalbeast Perhaps. I hope that it takes care of the mana fixing. There's really no reason to run spells to achieve that. It's just a waste.
I would love to see another 10 episodes of Shuffle Scuffle before the new year, pretty please!
Check out Friday!
wow! this video.. i've always struggled with this.. really helped out.. I usually use 35 lands at least and have noticed getting mana stuck a lot. The Moxfield mana average section is great.
Glad to have helped! :D
Moxfield is a god send!
I like the hypergeometric distribution method to determine how many lands you should put in your deck, as well as turn 2 mana ramp cards. Mine came out to 37/11
Sounds fancy☺️
Agreed, 37/10 seems to be the sweet spot
How does this work?
Finally started using Moxfield and love it so much! Got all my decks loaded and starting on my trade binders. It’s super awesome and wished I had done it sooner
Another happy customer!
I counted the decks I had on Moxfield and I average 30.5 lands. Seems about right for me as my curve is way lower at an average cmc of 2.4 . I range anywhere from 27-38 lands in a deck depending on how the deck is structured and what I need most. This is definitely not the normal amount of lands an average deck should have. I play low curve and efficiency so my decks can function on less land in order to mitigate the negative impact of not having enough mana. It does also mean I get hurt the most when mana flooding.
Moxfield ad guess: 7:17
Edit: so close.
I usually start at 40 lands (including mdfc lands) before I even start building the deck, then I go down one land for every three rocks that cost two mana or more, and then one land for every two mana accelerants that cost less than two mana. It usually leaves me at about 36-37, depending on how spiky I feel like being with that deck.
The count changed for me with mdfc's. I was a 36-37 land guy, but I now tend to run closer to 40 since I can literally replace slots with quality cards that also ensure I curve out. I only play three color or less and I don't spin my wheels, so I want to hit a land every turn in the early game without having to jump through hoops. Of course aggro decks and green decks can shave a few.
That is how I feel about them as well!
shouldnt mdfcs make your land count lower not higher? i don't get it. you can afford to run 33 lands + couple mdfcs
@@satsuki5679 I see it this way. I would have always liked to play close to 40 lands, but you couldn't afford the dead draws. With Mdfc's I can guarantee I curve out and have a big bomb like Sea Gate as a backup
the best ads are when its 50% ad, 50% still the video 😆
Hard disagree on playing less lands if you're playing more ramp spells. If you're playing ramp spells, it's to get ahead of your normal curve, so if you're missing land drops to do that then you're effectively paying mana for lands that you would normally play for free.
Otherwise, agree on everything you said :)
36 is my default. Then I judge about going above or below that based on: number of ramp spells, deck curve, commander cost and relevant abilities, and finally how much draw/looting there is in the deck.
Love the channel nerds. And you have tapped into niche magic discussions (such as this one). The shorts are great as well (comming from someone who doesnt generally like shorts) Keep up the good work!
Thank a million 🥰
Honestly, I was playing a lot with 33 lands (WITH mdfc). After playing a lot, I'm playing 37-38 Lands unless I've a ton of ramp and mana dork like 13-15 total. There is nothing worse than having a bad hand, then mulligan and still having a bad one again.
I had someone say 50 lands in a deck, I then played against them, a board wipe later and they just drew land after land. He was saying how low my land count was. I had 36 lands and 2 mdfcs.
The mana value changing part of Moxfield is amazing. Whole site is.
Awesome video, I needed this, regardless of my deck I always make sure the land count and mana base is well made, it's the most important part of the deck imo
It does help your deck function!
So last night was my first time using Moxfield and no lies were told!!! I managed to brew a new deck in less than an hour!!!!!!! I didn’t even get to tinker with the tabs yet so I’ll make sure to take that force of will down to 0👍🏽
This is probably one of the best videos when it comes to land counts in Commander that I've seen. You shouldn't set an amount of lands for every one of your decks. That being said, I think the best way to figure out how many lands you need in a deck is to go with 35. Then play a few games, if you seem mana hungry, add lands, if you seem flooded, remove some. Over time from doing this you'll get a decent balance of lands. It just takes time.
The following are some stats from my own decks.
My average CMC across 17 decks is 3, the average land count is 34. My lowest average CMC is 1.93 with 30 lands (Meria with 7 fetch lands, $698), my highest is 4.2 with 29 lands (Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, $1787). My lowest land count is my Daretti, Scrap Savant ($1470) deck with 28 lands and an average CMC of 3.65. In that deck my goal is to just to play mana rocks, toss my high mana cost artifacts in the graveyard and then cheat them out. It makes it where I almost never paying full mana for a spell. My highest land count is Korvold($1276), with 40 lands and an average CMC of 3.12. That is including 13 fetches for the sac triggers and draw.
The last time I got mana screwed was playing my The Scarab God deck ($1314). The average CMC is 2.84 CMC with 35 lands. I got a total of 2 lands in six turns and managed to win on turn eight from combat damage in a 3 player game. Rarely do I get overally mana flooded, because I run enough draw that I can compensate for the lands and just end up discarding them if they aren't needed.
An equation of such that I try to utilize
L=lands
M=mana rock/dork
R=ramp spell
C=(colors - green)
B= base 50 lands
A= average (cmc/mana value)
D= card draw ÷ 3
(B - R - M) + C + (A × 0.5) + D = L
(50 - 7 - 15) + 4 + (3 × 0.5) + 3 = 36.5
This seems weird to me. Usually intense card draw or other ways of card advantage such as impulse draws or graveyard stuff should decrease number of lands instead of increasing because you can quickly delve deeper into your deck to find lands. Shouldn't the last plus be minus instead? Your calculations don't add up(((
30-40 seems fair although it does depend on the type. In my Landfall deck i use 46 lands with Aesi which gives me double land drops and a draw each time. With some large ramp spells that can pull 5-8 lands onto the field and thin my deck before drawing then play impactful spells like tooth and nail or to be able to hard cast huge creatures.
When building decks I like to count ramp as half a land and aim for a number around 40.
I can just picture Jimmy Wong furiously writing notes on this one.
My core decks average land count is 33 (including MDFCs), going as low as 31
But those include a treasure deck (Negan), legendfall (Reki, the History of Kamigawa) and reanimator (Karador, Ghost Chieftain); decks that have ways to mitigate the risk of low land counts.
It’s also important to play your deck and see how it runs. I have a mono G Ghalta deck that runs 32 + 2 0mv rocks and an average MV/CMC of 3.7, but it runs a LOT of ramp, especially in the 1 drops.
Very true! Testing helps a lot
I’ve been thinking about this for my Ur Dragon deck all day… thank you for the information as always. You guys are awesome!
Try this:
5 swamp
5 mountain
5 island
8 forest
5 plains
Wooded foothills
Windswept heath
Misty rainforest
Verdant catacombs
Zagoth, ketria, indatha triome
Spara, jetmir, ziatora triome
Command tower
Wood elves
Nature's lore
Farseek
Three visits
This is a greenspine manacore and can run a 5 color deck like wet ice on wet ice.
You can run the capenna forest-based fetch's in place of triomes and the basic land type (forest type) duals from kaldhiem(snow) or dominaria united instead of the triomes. The actual fetchlands arent completely necessary but help alot. Then its just adding a few green tap/any color manadorks til your engine is peak.
As most manabases are not terribly budget friendly i am submitting this because ur-dragon is BOSS and deserves a high power/highly resistant manabase.
@@Badassest it’s funny because the fetches are really good options in ur dragon. The community has placed them to where wizards will never reprint them in a standard set again. I wasn’t expecting the triomes to be so expensive.
@@jamesgratz4771 yeah its ridiculous. I would like to think if anything- at least invest in one really good 5c manabase because eventually it will take over any format
@@Badassest yeah I’d like to have at least one of every fetch, shock and triome. The pain lands have been great for me too and those are way cheaper ! Dominaria United helped drop the price to a buck or two ! Wizards in general sucks at making mana bases not affordable
@@jamesgratz4771 wotc is printing in ways that make it obvious to me everyone will need a solid 5c manabase and moreso it will allow everyone to play whatever they want
I need Cherries to start saying “Wellllcome to Nitpicky Nerrrrdddsss” again.
My Eight-and-a-Half-Tails deck runs 31 lands (low to the ground average mana cost, LOTS of land search/ramp) and my Azusa and Kozilek deck each run 39 on the highest end. So many different things in the 99/98 can vary the ideal number of lands in a deck let alone something as important as what the Commander itself is. Crunching numbers and actually playing are super important to the process of figuring out how many lands to run, and information sources like the Nerds are huge aids, especially for newer players. Good stuff!
Got a list for Tails?:)
Exact video I needed right now. Like you read my mind.
Coincidence? Or not 👀
One of the little pleasures of running a Yuriko deck is knowing you only ever really need 3 mana: one to cast an unblockable dork, and the other 2 to ninjutsu Yuriko. Everything else is just kinda icing on the cake, lol. :^)
The “Saved It” earned you guys a new Patron. Love you guys! 😂
Just for clarification, do you count mana value with land or without land on Moxfield?
Wanting to know this also 😆
I base land base off first style of play, casual, higher power, or cedh. I typically run 28-34 depending on the style of play but typically run a minimum of 10 rocks and maximum 14
As a guy who mostly plays W/U/x value piles 37 or 38 is usually my sweet spot
Pack enough early card draw to make sure I hit the critical land drops, and put enough utility in the mana base to keep my mana busy during a flood.
love the new lighting!
From my personal experience with one free mulligan there is rarely any reason to ever run more than 34 lands. Pretty much all my decks run 32-34 lands (2.7-3.2 cmc) and I have very good experience when playing all of them. I have one clunky 35 land Timmy deck, but that one is just goofiness. Ramp is usually about 10 and I run 0 mana ramp in like 1 of 10 decks, yes I have a lot.
yea i'm on this number and reasoning, as well. Outside of lands-matter decks, if a deck has more than 34-35 lands (35 maybe for sans-green 3-4 color decks), that deck is typically running not enough ramp and has other mana base issues to begin with.
35-37 depending on CMC of the deck. Plus 10-15 ramps cards. I think it's important for any commander deck to have half of your deck, or little under to be lands and ramp. You'll have smoother plays for sure.
I play a 69 land Azusa lost but seeking deck
Edit another guy who plays a true 99 lands deck so I’m the second highest land at the table sometimes
I want to shout out the Ixalan flip lands. The white one is good ramp in white, and the tokens it makes can be turned into angels with the enchantment.
Treasure map is the best, and if used with smothering tithe it is an excellent source of card draw in white
Okay then NN, I'm going to guess on your NEXT video, the Moxfield ad will be at 16:47.
It'll be up to you to let us know how you did
@@NitpickingNerds just make sure it's at least a 20 minute video 😅😅
When building I always plug in my mana base pretty much first with 37. Then when I get my first 100 I check the curve and subtract lands if it's a low curve. My lowest is Edric at 34. My Lord Windgrace and my Birgi burn decks both have 40. Windgrace is lands matter and Birgi has a bunch of X spells. I count MDFC's as spells first and don't include them in my land count. However if I draw them in my opening hand I play the land side.
Your commander definitely matters when weighing your aCMC - my Grenzo cheats creatures with massive cmc's in for 2 generic. while my Anje has 2 special considerations: madness means a much lower true cmc, and her whole thing is tossing cards until a win-con pops up, so I really just need to make sure I have consistent gas for the engine at hand, which is basically my point, so... ... great video guys!
Great comment Gil 😉
When you guys talk about the average mana value, are you referring to the "including lands" or the "without lands" version? cause moxfield shows both
without lands :)
@@NitpickingNerds thanks! :)
Would love to see you guys do a video sharing your personal tips and tricks to optimize your use of Moxfield
A love letter to moxfield!
I have a general starting chart for lands. It flexible based on deck, but this is how I start
2C w G - 36
2C no G - 37 (Not RW)
3C w G - 37
3C no G 38
4C w G - 38
WUBR - 39
5C - 39
RW - 40
How does ledger shredder work with no max hand size? Do I have to discard?
I basically run 40 with 10 mana rocks in every deck (with 3-15 fetch lands and a wayfarers bauble, for deck thinning) but I also tend to favor commanders with strong card draw and search engines, or lots of mana sinks
I run about 28-30 lands in my Kozilek deck. You can obviously run less when half of the remaining 70 cards are mana rocks. And colorless is cool because your lands can help make up for the loss of colored effects.
My personal rule of thumb (let me know if it's crap) is:
40 land starting base
For every 2 cards of ramp, remove 1 land. This could be anything from rocks to growth.
Minimum 33 lands (one in three).
also, how do we count flip lands from ixalan ?
I need Amber cat tokens for my Rin and Seri deck. I use between 34 and 36 unless it's a landfall deck then it's 40+
That would be awesome!
I don't have a landfall deck, so my go to land count is 35 with a couple MDFC lands in the 35.
I have a lord windgrace deck with 50 lands. 6 cycle, 3 channel, a couple draw cards, some are fetches and a couple are win cons.
All 10 of my decks run 30-33 lands (the 2 with 33 include Maze of Ith) and 10+ pieces of 2 drop or less ramp.
To be fair though all my decks are 3+ colors, run all their off-color fetches, and have pretty optimized mana bases (minus OG duals). I also pay attention to my mana curve and avg. cmc with all my decks coming in between 2.5 and 2.9.
So, before i watch fully. I saw a table on reddit where someone did the math on the statistics and percentages for optimal lands in a deck. 36 was the best optimal number from it. If i can find the link i sent to my friend, i can send it to anyone interested
Would love to see that share In the NN discord
@@NitpickingNerds I just found it. Will join the discord sometime today and link it in the appropriate areas if you have a channel designated for it
I'm not very tech savvy, but I have my decks on Moxfield and have tried to tinker. A little video on some tips and tricks one day would be great! Don't know if that's possible or not? Either way keep the streak going! 💪
The streak will never die!
I run 40 to 45 depending on curve. I have a few decks that run 33 to 36 but I've found that more has been better as of late.
When you say lands does that meam Basic lands with no added effects? Or do things like nomad outpost or Bloodfell Caves count as well? I'm working with 21 basic lands and the rest are those extra effect types, either or mana, and so on to a total of about 40 ways to get land.
Esper how many lands does esper needs I need to know because my aminatou deck sucks at fixing and ramping
I’ve been waiting for this video 😅
well here it is!
Really depends on power level and number of mana rocks. CEDH i run 28-32 and regular EDH i run 33-35 plus mana rocks for both.
I try and avoid lands that come into play tapped, which is my gripe against MDFC’s. I still run a few and consider them in the same category as Cycle lands.
My Feldon deck can run smoothly with 33 lands. If you have enough rummaging or wheel effects, you don't need to bother with land drops. Feldon is also cheap, so most of the extra land is relatively useless.
I start with a 35 base line, then look at the average curve of my deck (minus the lands) and then add or subtract based what that number is. If it's less than 3.0, remove 1 land for each .5 it is. If it's above 3.5, add one for each one it is.
This doesn't take into account for landfall decks.
All true, I am having a hard time getting my Feldon of the Third path deck to run as smoothly as possible.
Does the Moxfield average lands in opening hand count MDFC lands or just strictly land cards?
Do the “quality” of the lands count? Untapped v. Tapped; colorless utility, field of the dead, etc.?
Can you guys do like a visual tutorial type video of the "more advanced" features of moxfield?
In 2 color i usually run 37 with 6 mdfcs, but then i like go out of my way to not run etb tapped utility lands aside from mdfcs.
Whats the right land count for commander? Depending on the Average CMC of your deck and the CMC of your commander. I tend to go for 35-40, av:37 with my standard ramp package of 7-10 cards averaging 2 cmc each.
3 examples of my decks with quite different strategies and land bases:
- My lowest deck is 33 lands, FBL-OOPS Mono Blue, the low land count is fixed via card draw in general.
- My highest is 40 lands, Korvold Landfall. LOL I recently added the Cultivator Colossus combo to draw out my deck for lots of landfall triggers and a well played Concordant crossroads to make my army of landfall tokens have haste... last game I got Scute Swarm to 100+ tokens in a single turn and swarmed my opponents.
- My Raggadragga deck is 35 lands, mana dork tribal X spells. I could probably lose 2 more lands but I don't like being too dependent on one thing or another, 35 seems like a good balance. X spells are great for Raggadragga because they are variable in cmc, they can be used pretty much anytime, your not stuck with high cmc spells in your hand yet you can still cast the X spell for 7 cmc and trigger Raggdragga.
According to the Prof. Tolarian academy your average commander deck should:
Land: 37-38
Ramp:10+
Draw:10+
Removal: 6-8 Single target, 5 min boardwipes
Creatures: 25+
Good video I was going to suggest a video about High cmc commanders and how to build accordingly. I have seen so many comments about high cmc commanders not being viable, they are fine you just have to build your deck a little differently like setting up an early game or boardwipes that will help your late game commander :P
Quick question, when calculating average cmc of a deck should I be including the lands or not including the lands?
Not including lands yes
when you say "play 35 things that are lands with 3 mdfcs" do you mean including 3 mdfc's or 3 additional mdfc's?
My deck is a cmc of 2.7 not reducing things like blasmouous act or reduced costs on cards… im running i think 33-34 lands, but im thinking of going one more lower to add in one more mana elf… what do
my veyran storm deck runs 26 lands with like 5 or 6 mana rocks. and somehow wins consistently… why? i have no clue. i shouldnt get lands as often as i do
Moxfield gives two average mana values: one that includes lands and one that does not include lands: "The average mana value of your mainboard is 2.4 with lands and 3.22 without lands. This deck's total mana value is 238." I use the one the includes lands but I don't know if that's correct.
You probably want to be looking at the number without lands, as that'll give you the best idea of what an average spell costs to cast, so you know what number you need to be reliably getting to (as the nerds were talking about) :)
I aim for 38 to 40... usually I run 60 cards with about 30 being a mix of ramp draw and interaction. 30 being deck related, then commander plus sol ring plus 38 lands
Must play casual or landfall if you can afford to run 40 lands
Huh, I start at 35 and increase/decrease by 1 for every 0.2 MV above/below 3.0 average MV. Works for me!
When you refer to Average Mana Value when it comes to how many lands to use do you mean with or without lands according to Moxfield?
Oh we use that number without lands
@@NitpickingNerds Ah crud in that case I've got some real clunkers in the ol' brew closet. Time to make some adjustments. Thanks Nerds!
Great content! Most of my decks have 37 lands including MDFCs. I have trouble finding that 3rd MDFC that really fits the deck, but I don't have any green decks yet.
Jeez yall really firin with lots of lands
Pretty sure i have like, one, deck with more than 30
@@V2ULTRAKill Are you playing cEDH? I mostly play Level 6-8 decks.
@@Vyse86 even if I wasnt running fast mana or efficient 2 drop rocks drastically cuts down land needs my weakest deck runs 32, and its elves
My decks go from 32-34 lands, depending on number of colors and amount of ramp. My mono-red deck runs 31, but it has plenty of mana rocks and makes lots of treasures. Going over 36 lands is just asking to be mana flooded.
I find myself being super greedy. I run around 33 and 5 color is my favorite to run 🤣 the crazy thing is I don't struggle as much as you would think because of correct fixing and ramp
I have a Yarok deck that's got about 39 to 41 lands because of it being a landfall/permanent based deck. Most of my decks run 32-36 either way and I've seen one of my decks(which is my teetering cEdh deck) have less than 30 which worried me so I edited it a little.
Honestly the numbers that I'm seeing is crazy to me, I run between 28 and 33, I'm usually playing just fine, I also run a bunch of ramp usually though aswell (artifacts, mana dorks, and ramp spells too)
We do say that ramp, fast mana, and curve can lower land count
@@NitpickingNerds definitely true! I just feel like you're if you're only playing one mana per turn you're going to be behind, ramp is so important in that sense because it basically puts you a turn ahead every time
Treasure decks, especially mono color decks (Magda for example) needs much fewer lands, I have 32 in my Magda deck.
I tried to convince someone who didn't run a lot of mana dorks or rocks that ran less than 30 lands to run more. Couldn't convince him despite him complaining about being consistently mana screwed
LOL we had a friend who would always keep 1-2 landers because he "didn't feel like mulliganning" and would complain the entire time
How many tap lands do you play on average? How many are utility lands? Just curious.
Due to me aggressively mulling (even down to 5) and having a bunch of tutors (sword of the animist, tithe, land tax etc) my medomai deck ends up being at like.. 28-29 lands?
Oh and the moxfield promo is definitely at 4:20. Could never cheat on this, it's almost as serious as a game of magic. 😂
Oh my gosh I was so close. You actually said moxfield at 4:20! I'm going to be inside 5 seconds one day🤞🤞🤞
Inside five seconds is the sweet spot, because you're still wrong but we won't call you a cheater
Nowadays I have a better respect for lands so typically run 35-38 depending on commander cost but ususlly don't go under 35. The ONLY exception was my higher powered magda deck because she only costs 2 and creates treasures.
I cannot afford to be a patron but I watch and like every video. You guys are awesome 😎
That's good enough to us
I often have 34 to 37 lands in most decks
Less if you have cheap consistent ramp and or card draw and artifact mana
More if you have landfall or lands matter decks
I have 39 lands in my scarab god deck. It’s hard to cut some of these sweet lands :)
7:03
Does it count if we guess at some point in the add, or does it have to be when the add starts to nail it? Lol
Hi! new to magic, how do mdfc work? you can cast them as lands and then as spells? do you have to choose wich side to play when deckbuilding? thanks for the help!
I know this is controversial, but I consider hitting your land drops to be completely different than ramping. Ramping costs mana and gets the attention of your opponents (even if you are just trying to keep up with them), while hitting your land drops is free and normal. I even have opponents that will interact with my green ramp after I've missed land drops, because they assume I'll eventually catch up at some point. I wouldn't really add more ramp with the intention of running fewer lands unless my deck had some crazy synergy with the way I am ramping, or I had major color fixing needs. I think card draw is more effective at letting you successfully run fewer lands, since you see more of your deck in general, and it can find you something to mitigate the attention you are going to get. A lot of this comes down to playstyle and meta, but I figured I'd throw this idea out there.
My general/generic land count is 37, while I have higher power decks with curves of 2.4-2.6 that run 33 or 34. I have a Kamiz Obscura Oculus deck that only runs 33 as well, since Connive lets me sift through my deck so much and I want to make sure I can take advantage of the ability (Raffine or Kamiz are great commanders for people who want to successfully get away with running a scandalously low number of lands btw 😉).
I usually make my High power decks with like 30-32 lands but all my mid-power decks are land decks so they run like 40
Cedh standard is ~27+2mdfc
My landfall deck is gonna run like 45-46. My lathril deck is 34-36. I'd say low cmc with ramp can go as low as 32. High cmc I'd say at least 36 or 37.
It would be very nice to know how many ramp spells (signets etc) do you play on avg with your avg Lands? :)