Decidedly avoiding highlighting, or using in any way, Harvey Dent's DID/repressed split personality ('Big Bad Harv') while prosecuting the trial of Arthur Fleck is a MASSIVE missed opportunity for deeper thematic exploration. Instead, we get an incredibly smug, sanctimonious, antagonistic Harvey that's entirely 1-dimensional and just casually has half his face burned (?) at the end, with no follow-up.
What could upset people so much about the "real" Joker being in the Asylum killing Arthur at the very end is the lack of setup. As someone on the panel said, the series is called Joker, and Arthur is the protagonist, leading us to identify him as Joker, or even a Joker inspiration, but HE is Joker for all intents and purposes because HE is whom the movie is about. Then, you blindside the audience with another mysterious, random, no-name figure at the very end who you now suppose is the real one. In terms of storytelling structure, it doesn't work, and I think most of the audience that imagines Arthur being an inspiration for "the real one" imagines him taking up more time because, if Joker's what your movie's about, then you should include more of this character than a 30s-2m scene at the end of the 2nd movie. On the note of a depressing movie that's satisfying to watch, look at something like Oldboy or A Tale of Two Sisters. Those two have something for the audience, but from what I've heard here, there's not really anything the audience can take away from this movie, leaving it feeling somewhat empty, even compared to the previous movie. Unfortunately, I will now spoil both of those, so if you're at all interested, now's your warning. I recommend both. Oldboy and A Tale of Two Sisters both end on a very depressing, dour note of the main characters losing something very important to them, but ultimately coming away with some sort of lesson that the audience can take away as well. Oldboy's antagonist tries to teach the main character about what happens when you bully someone so hard, they take their own life, in turn infuriating someone else. The antagonist then sets the protagonist up with his own daughter, and reveals it to him in hopes that something he deems morally reprehensible would shock him into accepting that bullying the antagonist and his sister out of their incestuous romance was wrong, or at the very least, too far. One moral you could take from that is "be nicer to people, because you could ruin lives to the point of death". The only partial victory here is the villain's. In A Tale of Two Sisters, the eldest despises her father and his mistress because of the affair currently occurring while the mother still lives with them. The whole movie shows that the eldest is very protective of her youngest while utterly despising the mistress, but the ending reveals that the youngest has been dead most of the film, and a lot of blame lies with the eldest. The mistress saw the youngest suffocating under a fallen wardrobe, and thought about getting help, but when the eldest walks up and sees the mistress, she denies the mistress's right to her family or house and says "I can't think of anything worse than being here with you" and walks out, prompting the mistress to keep silent. The ending shot even is the eldest walking away from the house, her family, and her sister, leaving the audience with a distinct feeling of tragedy, but it meant something and re-contextualizes the whole film.
I don’t have an issue with the fact it’s a musical. Arthur clearly had a connection with music and dancing in the first movie, so I think it’s fair to assume that the sequel would involve it too. However, there’s tons of times where the songs feel like filler and don’t tell us anything new about the characters or their situations
How i think Joker 2 slots perfectly with Joker 1 and doesn't ruin it: Arthur has 3 modes, not 2. They're _all_ him, just him trying a different format of interacting with the world. Mode 1 is his toxic positivity. Always putting on a happy face, always being nice. Never standing up for himself. Begging for a scrap of decency. Mode 2 is his toxic arrogance. His "Joker" persona. Always drawing a big show about himself. Provoking people for the sake of provoking people. Playing with a friend who's clearly terrified of him. Drunk on a false sense of power. That's the him that the crowd imagines him to be. Mode 3 is Arthur's authentic self. Vulnerable, self-aware, but brave and honest. That's the part of him that shot those 3 Wayne employees; not because it was funny or a big show, but because he deserves to defend himself. And that's the part of him that says "There _is_ no Joker. It's just me. _I_ did those things, and _I_ will accept the consequences, such as they are. Arthur rejecting his Joker persona is _not_ a downgrade. It's not him regressing to the weak timid Arthur. It's him bravely accepting responsibility. The timid Arthur would've promised Harley he'll be Joker again because he's so scared of losing her. The REAL Arthur stands up for himself "I'm the real Arthur. Talk to _me."_ I never saw Joker as the real him. To me this ending was bang-on. The guy who shanks him _is_ the monster who will go on to hunt Batman. Arthur was _never_ that Joker. The movie's an hour too long and dark as fuck, but i stand by the point it's making about the dangers of an alter-ego sacrificing the part of you that's _actually_ strong. The part of him who realized he did Gary wrong and decides to set it right and take the L. This is not a fun movie, or that good for that matter. And Dev's defense of this was ASS. "JOkER iS HiM WIthOuT hIs MEdS." Fucking, no. Wrong. But I don't see it as an antithesis to the first one; it's a last-minute memoriam for the _real_ Arthur before his Joker persona snuffs him out.
Of course Dev liked the movie. Smh.
To be fair Dev is a political philosopher or something of the sort so like old Benny Shapiro he's got funny ideas about entertainment 😅
@@NoahSpraguedude, Dev is classic lib, Shapiro is an orthodox neocon, it's like apples to oranges
@@DjMaxi005I believe he's merely stating political people have weird media takes
I enjoyed the movie for what it was. Though it needs a lot of editing, I like the point of the ending.
The fact that Dev is on my team makes me sad.
You need to bring Jon for episode 117 if you know what i mean
T I P P L E S
You should’ve kicked Dev early when you had the chance Mootal!
I like Joker 2, but holy shit does Dev's "defense" actively make me like it less. Please never let Dev defend anything again
They should have put the Why So Serious Beatbox in the film
Decidedly avoiding highlighting, or using in any way, Harvey Dent's DID/repressed split personality ('Big Bad Harv') while prosecuting the trial of Arthur Fleck is a MASSIVE missed opportunity for deeper thematic exploration. Instead, we get an incredibly smug, sanctimonious, antagonistic Harvey that's entirely 1-dimensional and just casually has half his face burned (?) at the end, with no follow-up.
Today we've learned making a bad movie on purpose is like crapping your pants on purpose. I will not elaborate.
I don't think you need to , very well put.
yep its the same, dev will eat it all up
Has anyone seen Dev and Destiny in the same room? I don't think so...
Look Back is in theaters sooo I'll be seeing that.
8:28 to skip Dev's Nintendo ramble and start the actual topic
What could upset people so much about the "real" Joker being in the Asylum killing Arthur at the very end is the lack of setup. As someone on the panel said, the series is called Joker, and Arthur is the protagonist, leading us to identify him as Joker, or even a Joker inspiration, but HE is Joker for all intents and purposes because HE is whom the movie is about. Then, you blindside the audience with another mysterious, random, no-name figure at the very end who you now suppose is the real one. In terms of storytelling structure, it doesn't work, and I think most of the audience that imagines Arthur being an inspiration for "the real one" imagines him taking up more time because, if Joker's what your movie's about, then you should include more of this character than a 30s-2m scene at the end of the 2nd movie.
On the note of a depressing movie that's satisfying to watch, look at something like Oldboy or A Tale of Two Sisters. Those two have something for the audience, but from what I've heard here, there's not really anything the audience can take away from this movie, leaving it feeling somewhat empty, even compared to the previous movie. Unfortunately, I will now spoil both of those, so if you're at all interested, now's your warning. I recommend both.
Oldboy and A Tale of Two Sisters both end on a very depressing, dour note of the main characters losing something very important to them, but ultimately coming away with some sort of lesson that the audience can take away as well. Oldboy's antagonist tries to teach the main character about what happens when you bully someone so hard, they take their own life, in turn infuriating someone else. The antagonist then sets the protagonist up with his own daughter, and reveals it to him in hopes that something he deems morally reprehensible would shock him into accepting that bullying the antagonist and his sister out of their incestuous romance was wrong, or at the very least, too far. One moral you could take from that is "be nicer to people, because you could ruin lives to the point of death". The only partial victory here is the villain's. In A Tale of Two Sisters, the eldest despises her father and his mistress because of the affair currently occurring while the mother still lives with them. The whole movie shows that the eldest is very protective of her youngest while utterly despising the mistress, but the ending reveals that the youngest has been dead most of the film, and a lot of blame lies with the eldest. The mistress saw the youngest suffocating under a fallen wardrobe, and thought about getting help, but when the eldest walks up and sees the mistress, she denies the mistress's right to her family or house and says "I can't think of anything worse than being here with you" and walks out, prompting the mistress to keep silent. The ending shot even is the eldest walking away from the house, her family, and her sister, leaving the audience with a distinct feeling of tragedy, but it meant something and re-contextualizes the whole film.
'Interested to hear your thoughts on this.
03:33:51
WHY WAS IT A MUSICAL?
They wanted to appeal to the gahye gaze. What better way to do that than to make it a musical as well as make a guy on guy graep scene
@@FactoryDan😮
I don’t have an issue with the fact it’s a musical. Arthur clearly had a connection with music and dancing in the first movie, so I think it’s fair to assume that the sequel would involve it too. However, there’s tons of times where the songs feel like filler and don’t tell us anything new about the characters or their situations
Kick Dev
Ah, was gonna watch this vod, but sfo is here, so guess I'll skip it.
How i think Joker 2 slots perfectly with Joker 1 and doesn't ruin it:
Arthur has 3 modes, not 2. They're _all_ him, just him trying a different format of interacting with the world.
Mode 1 is his toxic positivity. Always putting on a happy face, always being nice. Never standing up for himself. Begging for a scrap of decency.
Mode 2 is his toxic arrogance. His "Joker" persona. Always drawing a big show about himself. Provoking people for the sake of provoking people. Playing with a friend who's clearly terrified of him. Drunk on a false sense of power. That's the him that the crowd imagines him to be.
Mode 3 is Arthur's authentic self. Vulnerable, self-aware, but brave and honest.
That's the part of him that shot those 3 Wayne employees; not because it was funny or a big show, but because he deserves to defend himself.
And that's the part of him that says "There _is_ no Joker. It's just me. _I_ did those things, and _I_ will accept the consequences, such as they are.
Arthur rejecting his Joker persona is _not_ a downgrade. It's not him regressing to the weak timid Arthur. It's him bravely accepting responsibility.
The timid Arthur would've promised Harley he'll be Joker again because he's so scared of losing her. The REAL Arthur stands up for himself "I'm the real Arthur. Talk to _me."_
I never saw Joker as the real him. To me this ending was bang-on. The guy who shanks him _is_ the monster who will go on to hunt Batman. Arthur was _never_ that Joker.
The movie's an hour too long and dark as fuck, but i stand by the point it's making about the dangers of an alter-ego sacrificing the part of you that's _actually_ strong. The part of him who realized he did Gary wrong and decides to set it right and take the L.
This is not a fun movie, or that good for that matter. And Dev's defense of this was ASS. "JOkER iS HiM WIthOuT hIs MEdS." Fucking, no. Wrong.
But I don't see it as an antithesis to the first one; it's a last-minute memoriam for the _real_ Arthur before his Joker persona snuffs him out.