Misquoting Tolkien
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- Опубликовано: 20 мар 2022
- Misquoting Tolkien
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Tolkien didn't think about these things LOL this is a guy who was so detailed that people make jokes about him writing a backstory for every tree branch or blade of grass.
He was also very specific on his word choice leaving very little room for interpretation. He said exactly what he meant.
You might even call him a cunning linguist.
I’ll see myself out.
Erb
@@kyriss12 would that make you a master debater?
@@lizardkid666 you might be to young to remember but yes even before ERB it was a thing 😂
ERB.
I'm glad the fans of Tolkien are letting it be known that Amazon's violation of his work is not acceptable.
They ruined StarWars, they ruined StarTrek, they ruined historically accurate video games, and they're currently trying to ruin 40K, Harry Potter, Comics, and the rest of gaming.
But Lord of the Rings is THE best pop culture icon that exists. I think fans everywhere realize that if this crap flies, anything will.
@@spiffygonzales5160 40k is dead, GW killed it.
I and every other fan will be damned if we let it happen.
A I’m pretty sure that Tolkien would be running cerciles around thes SJws
B this could be strewn as cultural appropriation because Tolkien based it off European mythology but it doesn’t matter
Welsh not ring any bells
Its not fans of Tolkien, it's a bunch of neckbeards who are pretending to be well read scholars, but keep copying and pasting the same quote they read from someone else. Imagine crying because black people are cast in a show.
Funny how the side of "cultural appropriation" goes to these lengths to culturally appropriate European tales and folklore.
The leftists are full of these double standards
Particularly when Tolkien only ever tells us about the West of Middle Earth. The Southrons as depicted are likely the ancestors of the Mediterranean/North African people. The Easterlings are quite clearly the ancestors of the Asian steppe peoples.
If Arda is a flat Earth in a mythical prehistoric age, then that means the Southrons and Easterlings aren't even on the edges of the map in the south and east. There's likely an entire world of diversity beyond the small part that Tolkien was interested in writing about, stretching all the way to the prehistoric Americas in the distant east... or the far west after Iluvatar sinks Numenor and makes the world spherical.
But to write stories about any of that would require people interested in expanding on what Tolkien created with their own creativity - which i think is what he eludes to in his letter - rather than creatively bankrupt people who can only corrupt what others have made.
So far the best thing about this Amazon "Lord of the Rings" series is how all these people are getting called out for what they're doing and trying to do. Keep up the good work, JSG.
@@Mate397 All of it, including the race/skin tone over time. But no worries, it's only okay when they do it. 🙄
JSG has always put out good balanced analyses that are spot on. I don't agree with absolutely everything, nor would I expect to. He has more than earned respect for his views and opinions and is delicious and nourishing food for thought. Politics change, but Tolkien's works were struck out of a very specific unchanging note. To those who would commandeer his works for their own highly dubious political agenda, I would say... much that would cause this comment to become toxic.
They people who’re getting called out are crying into the piles of money they were given to make this.
Considering Mauler has created more hours of content then the sequel trilogy picking it apart, I’d say there will be good things to come of this. Just not from the production company.
Then again, after Dreamworks She-Ra and Smiths MOTU toy line range cartoon it’s was a pleasant surprise to see CGI He-Man hit exactly the right beat between modern update and homage to the originals. Take Robo Orko, he knows he’s not the original and the original is said to accomplished something great deed taking his people home before being lost to history. Robo Orko thus realises he’s a fake, a pretender, someone who stole the originals valour until his friends tell him he’s still unique and original and that they will help him. Orko thus takes the name Orko, but as an homage to the original and the script let’s you understand why. He can’t turn back time he can only go forward and he has so little of his own identity that he needs something to cling onto as a life line as he tries to figure out who he is. A malfunctioning robot or perhaps something more.
TLDR : The point is after two bad series they finally got one right for a modern audience but it took three attempts by different studios, two of which injected woke messaging into their series while the CGI one focused on developing character as it looked at how to make its ensemble work in its new setting. Characters are recognisable even if their motivations have changed. Cringed is now the father figure having come from a tribe of his kind. Trap jaw has a rivalry with Duncan as does Teela and Evil-Lyn. Wonderfully executed, safe for child consumption without woke brainwashing… worthy of the time that went into making it.
If the modern writing for Trek is anything to go by, we’ll not have anything like Peter Jackson’s work that nailed LOTR but dropped the ball on places with the Hobbit on account it was rushed and hurried out the gate by a studio who wanted more but wasn’t prepared to put in the quality control and time to allow the adaptation to be adapted in an overly drawn out trilogy.
Wait your right
"Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."
"We are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and then, when we finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that we were right."
"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them."
- George Orwell, English novelist, essayist, journalist, critic -
All of these quotes apply to current woke Hollywood and Amazon
They're going to be no different from Skynet. The Terminator films (excluding Dark Fate) was a prediction.
They are pretty much using 1984 as an instruction manual. They know how important control of language is.
@@killer_wasmad5721 you mean the anti-grooming bill?
@@GeraltofRivia22
That's being rewritten from a "feminist" perspective aka the very thing it was warning about
Untalented, lazy, unimaginative activists ruining the work of someone way more talented than them! Also Spider-man is a dastardly menace!
there'll be a reckoning and on that dreaded day the Red Lantern Corps will be there to burn em all!!
We've got to stop that web-slinging weirdo!
Also Amazon = woketrash.
Pretty much every show they've ever made except Reacher.
@@theminister1154 Even The Boys? I know the comic and how edgy it is, and sometimes mean spirited, and when the heroes try to be heroic it backfires a lot of the times.
Learn about the ESG Score system and you will find the roots of this poison.
Is there anyone you do trust, jameson???
3:20 Holyshit, for people who are apparently against outdated tropes and stereotypes they sure do love making slavery "references".
They think that it somehow guilts white people over the sins of their ancestor, while ignoring the fact that Africans were not the only race in history to be enslaved, and were not solely enslaved by white people. The trans-saharan slave trade (run by Arabs and africans) both predated and outlasted the transatlantic trade, and still continues today. It was also arguably more brutal, as the Arabs castrated male slaves.
@@addisonwelsh all races have been slaves throughout history and it's still going strong today, be very careful where you travel.
they literally took a story of GREEK mythology and re-wrote it to suit their agenda. because that culture is cleared for appropriating,
this new obsession with black slavery is baffling. i thought they are over it. but no, since BLM happened it all came back. or has this been going on longer? I don't know.
@@addisonwelsh Not to mention, many Africans sold into slavery were sold by Africans……
It saddens me how much they want to try warp and destroy Tolkien's vision,just to push an agenda.
*The Message* is all
@@ryanodom6101 I just read 'The Message' in The Critical Drinker's voice.
@im good i am confused. how is this on topic? or you just fishing?
@@bilwisss ignore. It's a bot.
@@atharvadeshpande4749 i always ask bots questions. its part of the process.
“Tolkien describe dark skinned people”
“Even if he didn’t, it still wouldn’t matter”
Wow. They debunked *their own* argument about him describing something he didn’t describe, by saying “it still wouldn’t matter”, even though it *does* matter. Pick an argument and stick with it, don’t use multiple contradicting arguments. These people are *really* bad at arguing.
It’s cognitive dissonance.
They are not interested in logic or consistency just like most commies.
@@JustAnArrogantAlien Arguing means you’ve had experience encountering DIFFERENT views. It’s like fucking - if there’s not a second party involved, it’s just rubbing one out. That’s why telling these people to fuck themselves is useless - it’s what they’re doing already.
I get the impression from people like this that they didn't do very well in 101 classes in college and don't have a good grasp on logical fallacies (unless it's to consult the list to specifically bash a certain viewpoint with strong emotion).
I really do think they floated through these classes because the standards have slipped so much (especially to accommodate students who wouldn't have qualified to attend that school if it weren't for certain demographic traits)
It doesn't matter.
They don't care about Tolkien. They don't respect art.
They don't respect anything. They hate life
@@Rinesmyth And young generations are expected to look up to them? SMH
They respect art, but only after they have twisted it for their own purposes. Skin-suit series.
That's not respect. Respect is admiring something because it's there, not because it's useful.
It's being used as a vehicle for politics
It's well known Tolkien made this, because he felt his country had no folklore no stories.
The fact is Amazon failed to convince people they owned anything LOTR so anything and everything they do no matter how they try to twist it, no matter how many deals they make to try to spin anything, everything they make from here on out is and forever will be non cannon.
They lost all credibility from the start, and because it's 2022 they can never have that.
The fact is Tolkien works have documented, told, and explored for decades.
They really have picked the wrong Fantasy World to butcher for no reason, and they may have indeed wasted a ton of money on it.
This is why they should have made their own IP, and not do another money burning bait and switch.
So you would think. But this is out there. This show. It has been made. And thus will continue to be.
@@Slitheringpeanut That wasn't it. Tolkien believed that Britain's traditional folklore, the myths and legends that were endemic to the country, were too often overshadowed by foreign ones. Myths which originated from their historical invaders from mainland Europe. And this belief wasn't unfounded; Britain's culture was an oral tradition so by the time Christendom became the dominate religion of Britain, it was speculated that well over half of the country's original folklore went extinct. The ones that did survive were rewritten to fit within the hegemony of Catholicism.
I thought the English were Protestants and not Catholics?
@@Atourq That's after they where Catholic, before that they were Catholic after years of conversion. Possibly after the Romans conquered that land for a while.
What did Tolkien think of Robin Hood and King Arthur?
A comic of your avatar guy as a batman-esque character just following irritated looking villains around and explaining why their plans are going to fail before they inevitably do would be rather amusing.
lol good idea
Actually, wow... that IS a great idea. Granted, LowBrow does something similar in this vein, but I can see his character doing this - in detail! With the villain eventually getting exasperated and just throwing his plans in the trash or sending goons after him. JustSomeGuy, the "super villain consultant".
"I dunno Doc, but if you keep this up, Reed is just gonna box your ears."
"You've insight Just Some Guy. But your powers are weak. Step aside."
*Reed boxes his ears*
"I don't wanna say I told you so...but here you are."
@@YetAnotherTechRaccoon that's grand.
@@TheRealMonkeyrogue Brilliant.
I'm with JSG here. This is the perfect time to make movies or shows based on African culture, mythology or legends. Sure if you're doing a straight retelling you obviously aren't going to have any giant castles but if that's your desire mix legends and make your own story outright. Use all the streaming services to your advantage. You want to do a fantasy series? Sure instead of using vampires and minotaurs use stuff like the Ilomba and Elko, you want giant castles for wars and sieges? Fine Have areas like we saw with egypt where the environment is more consistent thus facilitating the use of castles and kingdoms, you could have some fun with the visuals and shots too. You want big name heroes? the epic of Mwindo is perfect and is so utterly wild it would make for a great movie or show. Tamuras of iranian myth who bound demons to him and used them to build his kingdom and learned writing from them. Or literally anything from Sumerian myth like the epic of Gilgamesh. You want an all black cast? No problem your movie or series is set in africa, iran, Iraq whatever so you would have no reason for there to be any white people. Stop forcing round pegs into square holes that don't fit and use the vast history and mythology you keep patting yourself on the back for.
There was a woman a while back I was watching an interview with who had just written her first novel, a fantasy novel styled after the epics of the greatest western hero's journeys, but framed in and around African mythology. She argued that African mythology is such a wellspring of great storytelling potential and it's tragically remained untapped. I respected that a lot, and really wish I could remember the book and author; I've been finding myself thinking about that interview a lot recently.
They have a “historical” one being made rn that has the protagonists to be the kingdom who were the biggest African slave trading nation in the continent lol. Hollywood can’t even try to put together an African story without idolizing and empathizing with what should be the bad guys of the setting. It’s really telling.
@@roberthesser6402 The wizard of Earthsea series? I know the author Ursula K. Le Guin went out of her way to use mythology, magic and folklore from everywhere in the world except Europe and fought hard to keep the main character of the series his proper skin colour since the publishers kept trying to make him white to sell more books.
You do know African countries had castle like fortifications and palaces right? There is the Fasil Ghebbi royal fortress of Gondar in Ethiopia, Ta'akha Maryam palace, el-Khandaq fort, Taleh Castle, Segou fort, Karanog Castle, Qandala castle, Eyl castle and Toubakouta fort for example. Plus there are fantasies doing this already Amazon just isn't one of the studios adapting those works HBO, Hulu, Warner Bros, CBS, MSNBC, Paramount and Netflix are the ones I know who.have announced adaptations of African fantasies which use African culture from architecture, to clothing, folkloric creatures etc.
@@roberthesser6402 not untapped there are African fantasies out there they just aren't well known as LOTR or ASOIAF, but many of them are being adapted soon.
They certainly don’t care about the cultural background of Arda. That being a mythology created specifically for England & the British Isles.
All that has to be done to debunk this crap os to read Tolkien’s Letters. It’s explicit & inviolable.
You know these same people would be screeching bloody murder if someone was going to “whitewash” African mythology too.
@@roguewasbanned4746 where are the white Wakandans? I don't feel represented!
@@roguewasbanned4746 one of their arguments is that there are black and non white people living in Europe, so its OK to include them in European stories. OK, I'm white and live in Africa. I demand Shaka Zulu be played by a white guy.
@@GeraltofRivia22 There were no white people in Precolonial Africa though. Plus Shaka was black so.yhat would be stupid
But da eval wypipo dun haz no cooture
"He wrote his response in Tolkien's own voice"
That was his formal LotR voice -- if you read some of the words Tolkien has for his critics, he's considerably snarkier. Imagine an Oxford don (as Tolkien was) making trenchant observations on Twitter. (It's really funny.)
“Some who have read the book, or at any rate have reviewed it, have found it boring, absurd, or contemptible, and I have no cause to complain, since I have similar opinions of their works, or of the kinds of writing that they evidently prefer.”
@@ChadKakashi Peter Jackson could probably only make two movies out of it, though.
The usual debates on race in Middle-Earth:
Tolkien never wrote anything about skin colour of Elves!
- Proven wrong by multiple references.
Doesn't mean that all Elves were white!
- Proven wrong by the origin of Elves as well as the way whiteness is treated as default in Tolkien's setting.
That's racist to equal good guys with being white!
- Proven wrong by providing multiple examples of white guys who were NOT good guys.
Skin colour of fictional beings doesn't matter!
- Proven wrong by Amazon bragging about the first black Elf/Dwarf/Hobbit.
Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.
Basically ...
"people thinking they're more intelligent than they actually are" really sums up the issues with these types of "journalists" and"scholars"
Oh yes. You have got no idea how dam right you are
So, Basically the gist of that whole artical was:
"Tolkiens estate sold it. We can do what we want. NahnananaNah!!!"
Lol what? So they casted a guy to play Prometheus just cause he was Black to bring up slavery overtones??? How does that make it more poignant at all?
Short answer? It doesn't It deliberately obfuscates the entire point of the Prometheus story, making it more about the Overtones than the actual message. It's gross to think about as someone who genuinely loves Greek Legends.
@@RotaAbyssian tbf, it's not that dissimilar to out of Africa theory... (which has been taking a lot of hits with new hominids discovered). I'm yet to be explained how sunlight changes craneal features. There must be some Pinocchio effect in the sunrays :) And yet cro-magnon was already a genetically modern human
This is the biggest point for me. Inputting black people into a European folklore story? What ever, they could still stay on track with the plot, at least. Making his backstory have slave-ish overtones? Now they have messed up Middle Earth and the plot.
It's fine so long as that is your purpose, but don't expect it to say anything meaningful about Greek mythology, or claim that it should replace the mythology. That's what Amazon is doing with LOTR.
The big irony is that they outright assume that all the versions of Prometheus are saints, and that Zeus is always being unfair, neither of which are actually the case.
I will not watch this, for the same reason I have never seen ST: Discovery, ST: Picard, or Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. Tolkien's works are pristine in my mind, and I will not have those memories butchered by talentless hacks with modern agendas. I will carry my love for them into the West, there they will be ever green.
"Keep moving the goalpost until you walk right into it, all on your own." Brilliant
If you are a Tolkien fan, go buy the actual books now if you haven't already. These types have a habit to try and rewrite history.
Well then, archive everything unedited get some servers for them just store it don’t touch it ,read only viewing once in, no modifications can be made. Do the same for history books.
I'd love to see Elfquest adapted into a series. It's a perfect example of people creating thier own work instead of adapting an existing one. They wanted multiracial elves and then created a world that reflected that.
The fanbase for Elfquest is fucking horrible. People would bring up casting choices for a hypothetical movie, and god help you if the actor you suggested was 2 shades too light. Meanwhile you would have people suggesting drag queens for an elderly female elf, and that was applauded. Creators are nice enough, and their opinions are reasonable, but their fan base is not.
@@lle.5583 Yeah, the fan community is a nightmare. 😅 They could help that by making it animated, but that really won't stop people from being terrible. Cases in point, SU, She-ra, and Voltron.
Wow I didn't know other human beings actually knew of Elfquest , Kool lol
@@craigdurso3005 I'm a 30 year reader.
Thank God I'm of the race of man, so there's a chance I'll just kick the bucket and not have to see what a mess this show turns into.
Fingers crossed.
Five seasons of this shit 😐
@@theobserver6579 and since it's deep pockets Amazon they'll run all 5 seasons.....if it was netflix, 3 years with 27 episodes [9 a season] and no views....no scratch that they'd bail when season 1 flops.....they'd do the 3 seasons if S1 was mediocre views at best....
It's called the 'gift of men' for a reason.
In my eyes there is only one race, the human race. If anything it's colorist
We can only hope!
I often question the reading comprehension and intelligence of these people. I like to believe they are intelligent and they are just dishonest. Its less disturbing.
@@quaesitorluminis2846 or read from it to type the allegedly memorized qoutes . If you press them on those qoutes the context or what happened before or after. They cant respond usually. ( like a galadriel description in valinor) when i responded he was silent. ( especially as its from unfinished tales draft and they dont have the rights or what about what they leave out ? )
@@Mate397 agreed. Thats way they are dangerous. Its like in game of thrones tywin Lannister to cercie Lannister. ( i dont disrespect you because your a woman i disrespect ypu because your only half as intelligent as you think you are )
Long ago we were taught to absorb knowledge through a variety of books and think critically about them. Now we are taught to read approved books and find whatever grain of truth conforms our bias. College is a cult and social justice is the cool-aid.
Nah, them being stupid is way less horrifying. They know exactly what they're doing. It's gaslighting, plain and simple. They know it doesn't say that, but they'll tell you it does anyway and say you're the one who's wrong. It's their favourite tactic. Again and again, they blatantly state falsehoods, often accusing us of doing exactly what they are doing.
@@sebastiank5934 agreed.
Corsairs in Tolkien's lore seem to be based on Barbary corsairs who were mediterean pirates in the Middle-Ages who abducted hundred thousands of European people into slavery. A historical fact that was very impactful but is unknown by most people nowadays. It is not astonishing that it caused a trauma in the collective psyche which induced some negative stereotypes. From Tolkien's writings we can see that he did not intend to push those stereotypes further but rather supported a nuanced and emphatic perspective.
@Lite-Wing Gift The Barbary _states_ lasted 200 years. Slave raiding in the Mediterranean went on more or less unabated from the times of the Phoenicians until the Victorian Age. In fact, one of the biggest reasons for the expulsion of Jews and Muslims from Spain in the 1490s is that they were accused of aiding and abetting slave raiding by North African sailors throughout the Mediterranean coast of Spain.
@Lite-Wing Gift Moreover, the slave trade on the east coast of Africa is alive and well to this day. It is reduced in scale, though not in suffering, having been revitalized after Europeans pulled out, mostly trading with middle-eastern states.
The British had led the charge in putting an end to the slave trade in Africa, coercing other European nations into following suit and spent the modern equivalent of billions of dollars and thousands of their own lives to do so.
Slavery has never been unique to Europeans, neither in existence, nor in cruelty. However, the fact that the U.S. fought a civil war to END slavery in it's own borders and that Europe went to war with slavers, pirates and raiders to put an END to the slave trade practically everywhere else is certainly unique.
“Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin what good forces have invented or made.”
In this case with Amazon that is completely true, they have defiled Tolkiens work, I want to thank you for being one of the head voices opposed to it, very few people can pull it over quite eloquently and as informatively is you. Thank you.
“You have my sword”.
@@Shadow-gm9ct I know, but it is nevertheless fitting for this circumstance.
"Adaptations are original cultural products."
No. No, they are not. The very word adapted means to modify to a new format not the creation of something wholly new.
These people are so despicable they even abuse and manipulate language to serve their own narcissism.
A wholly original cultural product can stand on its own. It doesn't need an existing fandom because it can create its own. This Amazon dumpster fire can do no such thing. This is pure gaslighting. But what else can you really expect from these types?
Good to see you are still fighting the fight via the comic industry.
@@killer_wasmad5721 what bad take?
@@killer_wasmad5721 I never got recommended any of those videos by him, so I had no idea those existed.
Writers respect writers. A true writer will never take a job that changes and disrespect the original work. But, these people are no writers.
If your content was the only available on the internet, I would be content. Once again, really well researched, and superbly written and vocalised. Thank you
The fact that there are MANY video interviews of Tolkien being very specific about his work completely destroying the bullshit bias of these Amazon fools is just funny and tragic at the same time.
There is so much they could have done to expand the work if they had been vaguely intelligent and honest about it.
A story about the Easterlimgs, Harrad and the Blue wizards that draws on African and Eastern mythology showing an entirely original story with the appropriate Valar being their gods, eventually cumulating in what lies and threats the ones who joined Salron and what they left behind would have been epic.
Thanks to Tolkien, I felt more encouraged to tell my own works of fiction. My fantasy setting is based around the cultures that had a profound influence on my life, like Persians, Mesopotamians, Norse, Greeks, and Native American, and many others. In short I'm utilizing the brilliant observations of Tolkien in how he built his own world, but without ripping off his stories. I'm building a world, that my readers can use as an escape from the bitterness of this reality and maybe inspiring them to be better people. Like yeah, there's diversity in the story, but ones that makes sense for the setting, like Lord of the Rings did. People of unique backgrounds and race coming together to face a threat that seeks to doom their world. But without a magic ring needing to be destroyed, let's be clear about that! Mainly the goal is to stop a faction from corrupting innocent folk to spite against gods/goddesses who the great protectors of their world but also indirectly cause disasters, without even considering peace and understanding as an option. Sound familiar?
Now that's the way to do it!! Let us know when it's done!! Pretty please!!
Nobody cares
Yes, this I want to read!
I am sick of Cultural Marxism. Calling this crap for what it is.
The entire point of the diversity movement to actively *divide* people into separate groups. So theres no unity, no one voice, no common ground, or any kind of agreement over anything. All so those who are behind this bullshit can bother control.the masses while they're all squared off in their little pins.
They want us fighting each other and refusing to come together and forget what makes us different so we're too busy fighting each other to fight The Man. Masses are easier to control if split up
You understand that this ideology is an extension of nazism right? It's not "cultural", it's racial. Just like the Naizs never cared about "whiteness" only Aryanism, these people care about racial purity and put people on hierarchies of value dependent on racial groups. They are deeply anti-semetic to boot, like most socialists. Whiteness is a new catch-all for Jew, perhaps not in the mind of these people specifically, but certainly in the intellectual tradition of their ideology. Save the world from an evil race, destroy capitalism & individualism as they are tools of the evil race, even class warfare is rejected by these types.
Your not alone
@@randomnerd9088 marxism was around during ww2. Maxism and nazism can be the same thing. Nazism simply means you take an ideology, radicalize it and attack all others. In ww2 that was communism, gypsies, jews and black people amongst others. These leftists are radicaly addopting marxism, and silencing anyone else that disagrees with them, aka they are marxist nazis.
@@F0r3v3rT0m0rr0w No... No it doesn't. Nazism itself is an ideology. It comes from "nationalism" in German. Meaning they put the good of their nation (the Fatherland) above everything else. Persecution of the Jews/non-Aryans was framed as being an economic and moral necessity for the good of Germany.
What you see nowadays with SJWs is fascism and communism/Marxism/socialism. Fascism is the one you were talking about where you radicalise an ideology and attack all others.
I hate that everything has to have diversity inclusion thrust into its narrative or casting. At what point did it become racist to write a story based on a certain place in the world, at a certain point in history, and not have any diversity on the cast. Hell, that new Vikings show, which is still dubious in it's historical accuracy, has a black woman cast as the de facto king of Norway. It's not racist to hire an all white cast, if that's what it would have been at the time. When did people lose sight of this
Wait, seriously?
...Like, I know the Vikings did at least a couple raids on Andalusia. Couldn't they have just gotten their woke points by giving the Vikings a scholarly-and-perfect nonthreatening empowered Muslim buddy? Like, got picked up on a slave raid, got popular enough that they freed him and kept him around?
@@nihilvox Yep. Jarl Haakon Sigurdarson, defacto ruler of Norway between 975-995..... Netflix Vikings: Valhalla series, cast a Black woman. Like I said, it's not racist to cast this character as a middle-aged white guy. That's what he was....
they're going to keep trying to get away with it in every way they can and have in the past. saying how it's okay, saying it's not a big deal, and denouncing and othering people that critique it.
but in the end, it will still die
also the bashing of trying to call Tolkein tacist is just as moot as anyone trying to hit lovecraft with that same bat. anyone who says that? didn't even take 5 minutes to look into them
and the one interesting paradox hanging over this entire 'debate' : If even Amazon thought this show was any good, why are they spending money attacking potential customers instead of hyping the show itself? it's almost as if they're trying to set up an external excuse for it's failure as opposed to a fault of the show itself...
A corollary to finding stories that fit the agenda to which you are sold out is not trying to adapt stories that you find offensive. Would you try to make a movie from Mein Kampf? If you think Tolkien's work is riddled with racism, DON"T USE IT!
The simplest answers will always evade the dumbest people
So logical Andrew!
Reminds me of the arguments about teaching Critical Race Theory in schools.
"No one is trying to teach CRT to young children... that's a right wing conspiracy"
"How dare you try to pass that bill outlawing CRT in elementary schools... you're a racist"
At least they are consistent... even if it's regarding their inconsistencies.
Ever looked up how these supposedly racist laws are written? It's quite scary to see what they are rejecting.
CRT has never been taught in school to people under the age of 18. It's a post-graduate law school topic that analyzes the effects of racism in the legal sphere, and how the law has historically been used as a means of oppression; it would, for instance, analyze the war on drug's effects on minority groups who are disproportionately more likely to exist in community's vulnerable to drug pandemics owing to low income, itself owed to having lesser advantages, and so on through the annals of history. This is not the kind of content taught in public schools, and is only truly of interest to those pursuing a law degree. People who attempted to ban it from school, however, used CRT as a bogeyman to drive down a school's abilities to engage with the topic of racism in American history at all. CRT was never the issue, the legislation itself was, because it had a chilling effect on schools, rendering them unwilling to cover the topic of racism in even a historical context for fear of legal liability. Proponents for banning CRT, in short, defined CRT broadly enough in the legislature to make the discussion of racism itself a legal grey area in many school systems, which carries with it a quality of historical revisionism by force. A common argument in favor of banning "CRT" is that schools should not make children feel bad or ashamed of their country, and any such content that can or does make a child feel bad (such as the topic of slavery) could be construed as teaching CRT, whether it is factually definable as equating to CRT or not. And well, there's really no getting around that. It's intellectual cowardice, advocating for schools to be turned into propaganda centers extolling the virtues of America, rather than places of learning. History should never be comfortable. That's why we are supposed to learn from it.
@@Mate397 Double standards shouldn't be considered a standard that has the unfairness of persisting.
@@TRENCHESandTREADS Generally the kinds of people that see different view points in such black and white terms as “evil” are the kinds of people that burnt books, so I know I’m wasting my time by writing the rest of this response, but for the sake of intellectual honesty I am compelled to do so anyway. My intent was only to explain the controversy from a perspective you might not share; I have my own problems with wokism and The way that identity politics are discussed in the modern sphere, and if we are going to actually claim to be interested in the value of open and honest discussion, than that means civilly engaging with topics and points of you that we might disagree with. But racism is a quality of American history, that’s just an inherent fact. And the laws are such that topics related to that racism, which would include things like slavery and the Civil War, are subject to censorship to a degree that results in actual historical revisionism. I know you’re probably going to disagree with me on this, but as an example, Schools teaching that the Civil War was started simply by A disagreement over states rights are being revisionist. The cornerstone of the confederacy was racism. The vice president of the confederacy explicitly states as such in his cornerstone speech in the most blatant possible language.
“Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science….May we not therefore look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgement of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws.”
As such, the Civil War was about slavery, and the racism that justified it. Every single article of secession from every confederate state lists slavery as their primary reason for secession. Erasing that aspect of American history is both revisionist and cowardly. If a student comes away from the discussion of slavery thinking that the African community deserved what it got, than I would argue that there is something broken about their capacity for empathy. And it wouldn’t be on the school to fix him or her. However, such legislation as what has been proposed and passed goes beyond the moralizing of history, and has targeted the ability for it to be taught, period, facts and all. If you are so interested in “facts” being taught in school irrespective of any kind of moral quality, then you should be against these laws, as these laws restrict the ability for the history to be told.
Now I know you’re going to misconstrue everything I say, I know you’re going to laser in on certain points and act as if that was the entire point of my post. I mean you’ve already dismissed my civil response as “evil”, so I’m not expecting any more of a civil response from yourself. But hopefully somebody reading this has learned something, and they can then, as you say, come away with their own conclusions.
@@roberthesser6402 Nice motte and bailey argument there. Not buying it.
Thank you as always, for taking your time to put words on this. It really ruffles my feathers, the levels of antagonism and vilification we are dealing with, for not accepting intellectual dishonesty. Either Tolkien's story matter, and they respect what he build - or they are trying to build something else entirely, covering themselves with his feathers to sell it better. And that begs the questions, what can't they make their own instead then?
*Entertainment now sucks*
🥇👑
It shouldn't be called "entertainment".
They really hate beared ladies, huh?
@@gianna526 yes but they're hypocrites sooo
Africa has a mountain of fiction and folklore... But it's in a tribal setting, and thus 'Depicts the negra in a poor light.'
I can just hear a southern Dixicrat saying that... It's how they think.
Or… make a unique story based off African folklore. Build something up like Tolkien did. You could tie in lots of African stuff: Shaka Zulu, the bad ask Nubians/Kush and their wars against Egypt, Ethiopian history, etc.
Wtf a you talking about? Africa had empires and kingdoms. This stereotypical view you people have of the continent is one of the main reasons they need to start adapting African fantasies and historical epics.
@@roguewasbanned4746 Already been done there is Imaro, Rage of Dragons, Black Leopard Red Wolf, Kingdom of Souls and Raybearer for example.
@@roguewasbanned4746 It could be interesting, but the talentless hacks in the industries that could make such things would just politicize it. It wouldn't be properly focused on the folklore that everyone could become invested and interested in, it would be used as a vehicle to promote more racial division. It would be trampled and effectively raped just as is the Tolkien and so much other euro-centric art simply for woke points and to keep the screeching morons in the padded cell reserved for CRT racists relevant in their own minds. There is little room for respect for anyone's work, from non-whites included, in the addled minds of these people. It's all there only as political fodder.
Exactly I've run into that "race doesn't matter" , "it's important to have presentation" argument when it comes to comic book characters. It doesn't hold water, they know it, but they won't admit it.
"Outdated and unacceptable tropes"
Just write! An original! Book!
I wonder when they will realize that this stail bs ain't working anymore never has never will
If there’s any solace to all of this is that we will die knowing what good writing, characters and entertainment was.
@@bi0hazard921 all our stuff will be burnt to ashes but we'll die having the last laugh....
Yes all the villains were black cough Grima, cough Saruman, cough Fëanor, cough all his sons, cough Eöl, cough At-Pharazon and the King’s men. Oh, sorry I get sick when I hear bullshit 🤣🤣
Uh, acktchually, Saruman would be exempt from your list since he is Saruman of many coloreds. I can see where you would be confused.
SARCASM. Also, allergies are a BITCH, aren't they? Maybe if we take enough Calritin™, we might be able to clear our eyes of this bullshit.
What gets me is, the same people making all these statements and justifications are the same ones that were offended when things like Matt Damon starring in that Great Wall movie happen.
It's really just an exact case of 'rules for thee, but not for me'.
The logic of this article basically states that every fanfic is as genuine and valid as the original works they are based on. Only someone who has NO appreciation for literature would dare make such claims. Safe to disregard these opinions.
They just had to make the series more fokussed on the east/southeast of middle earth.
- very vague story and no charakters to butcher
- every representation you could dream of
- the possibility to invalidate the interpretation 'west vs east' or 'white vs non-white' by giving them good reasons why they fought for sauron or even portraying the life under saurons rule and some kind of resistance against sauron.
I am an avid reader (and re-reader for over fifty years) of Tolkien's works and I am very impressed with your knowledge of Tolkien and your ability to communicate your critiques. So much so I have been binge watching your past postings. Continue your good work sir!
I absolutely loved how Carl F Hostetter ripped those two buffoons, Fimi and Maldonado, to shreds. That they didn't seem to know or remember that he took over from Christopher Tolkien editing the great man's works made it all the more delicious. They made complete fools of themselves. 😄
I remember a time when "academic" was a badge of honor. Now it just means actively delusional and disingenious.
I hope this crashes and costs Amazon a ton of money. I really do.
It will crash, yeah...
The Money part... I dont think that will hurt them too much.
@@Daishi18 It's still the most expensive show that's ever been made. If it flops just the complete failure of it will be embarrassment enough .
They've bought the rights to Stargate too!
Crossover anyone?
@@Daishi18 The narrative being ignored is what'll hurt. That needs to happen more often for the betterment of humanity's future as a whole.
Don't watch it. Don't give them the satisfaction. Turn your back on them.
Its amazing the people who cry "cultural appropriation" are fighting this.
One thing that people forget, He started writing this in he 1930s way before WWII.
Think about how little was known of the rest of the world at that time that didnt come from books written by one person. Today you can go on the internet and speak to someone from any country or find facts within minutes.
Tolkien was very much a man of his time and should be judged as such.
The film Frozen came out in 2013 set in old style european towns full of white people.
Yet Frozen II came out in 2019 and suddenly those very same towns are now 50% black.
Those 6 years between films made a big difference. Odd then when disney makes films about different races they keep their skin tones.
A multiracial society is supposed to just spring up out of the ground.
You see the same with the Thor films when they show you Asgard.
The first film has a primarily Nordic looking cast, when showing you people around in Asgard.
By Ragnarok, every second person walking around in Asgard is black.
Where were all these black Asgardians in the first film?
Ya'know, if they wanted a cast-of-color, they could have had a show about the adventures of the Blue Wizards. They went to the far east and way down south to Far Harrad. The best part is that since Tolkien didn't say much about them, you can pretty much make up whatever you want and it would be compatible with the cannon.
Tolkien "scholars": "He wasn't descriptive enough"
Failed Tolkien readers: "I could not make it past the first few pages, he's too damn descriptive."
Tolkien readers: "Yeah, it can get a bit much at times."
Tolkien: "My only regret was not having access to a Pantone Matching System when I wrote LotR. I would have added even more detailed descriptions of every pebble, character and meal, until either the book was published or my editor beat me to death with a copy of Finnegan's Wake, whatever came first."
Tolkien: "The book is too short."
Tolkien: "Hmm. Today I shall create another language for a fictional race. And then another for an offshoot of that race."
That was %=÷*ing beautiful 😭
TBH I always skipped the songs/poems. Too damned boring. 😄
"Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin what good forces have invented or made." - John Ronald Reuel Tolkien CBE FRSL
They want to flay Tolkien & wear him like a gristle-dripping SKINSUIT so they can sneak their woke freak MESSSSSIGE into The Last Franchise. But hey, if you SHOOT Buffalo Bill you're TRAAAAANSPOBIC. Good people help rub the lotion on Tolkien's skin.
Wow, you spelled the R. R. out for extra effect. You win the internet today buddy.
It is a bit ironic that on a video titled ‘Misquoting Tolkien’ you’ve attributed a quote to him that he didn’t actually say…
"The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own."
- Frodo, 'The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King' by John Ronald Reuel Tolkien CBE FRSL
@@Caerulean That’s better
They could have easily built an entire DnD-based story, still with elves, dwarves and orcs. Skin color matters very little in that universe.
But nope, can't be bothered to be creative enough to come up with a DnD campaign worth of new characters.
They're changing dnd or already have done. Orcs can't be minions and beholders have lost their superiority complex
@@DrakeKnight99 Ikr, they claim Orcs are racist because Orcs remind THEM of black people. 🤔🤦🏾♀️😑
None of the D&D players I know -- of ANY race -- ever saw Orcs as black people. It's the people who do, who are the racists.
Yeah, I was going to say, that requires imagination, something they seem to be lacking.
@@zxyatiywariii8
Dude when I run Grog he usually has a deep kinda cockney accent like he's a british goon from a movie or something
These "changes" that the makers of the "Rings of Power" were bred for one reason: To destroy the World of Men.
"Every adaptation is automatically fully justified and unquestionable in how it adapts"
That's effectively what they're saying. They're just shameless snakes.
I've been loving your LOTR videos. Keep it up. They're great and you know your stuff
Always nice to see JSG upload a video.
Looking forward to this one - Love From Texas
man, your essay skills are crazy. when you got to "and he even did it in Tolkien's voice", i was like "right!". love your vids, man. its just weird how far they go with this stuff. they are gonna change Blade to an asian dude. i just know it! lol
I'm loving this. I'm not a fan of LotR particularly, so I don't care for the show, but the LotR fandom is so strong that their pushback will help many other franchises. At least I hope so. LotR has such an influence.
This channel is excellent and definitely needed.
Would be very curious about any expansions like a long form podcast or deep dives.
As usual you never disappoint JSG you hit the nail onthe head .
It's funny how they seem to think that slavery in America was like, the worst slavery there ever was as if the whip somehow cut harder on this continent.
Also they tend to forget that almost every country and every race had their hands in slavery/slave trade. Even back in Caveman eras.
"We didn't check the source material because staying true to the source content hinders the creators from realising their vision."
A bunch of talentless hacks who wants to use a preexisting established fanbase to package their political activism.
Same case with the upcoming Halo show...
This is the best and most informative video you've made on this topic in my opinion, and they've all been extremely good. Thank you for your ongoing comments on this situation, they're well informed and always insightful.
Shame he fecked up big time on the last two
Such a great video. Thanks for posting.
Oof, they tried to compared progressive writers to the absolute *GOD* *LEGEND* *KING* that is Tolkien. Those dimwits couldn't compare with ten thousand years of prep to the man, they let the jealousy of the man seeps into every stroke of the key.
Imagine if the woke left were in charge of all the ancestors of humanity ten thousand years ago? What do you think would most likely happen?
Tolkien would hate what you just called him. Its blasphemy, and he was a devout Catholic.
Getting progressive writers to make a good adaptation of Tolkien is like expecting an histerical vegan to cook a fine steak for dinner. You can't because these are two completely opposed views wich collide with eachother.
Whenever I try to talk about this show gender swapping characters, I get labeled as some kind of racist because I look white. So I wanted to thank you for talking about this in depth, so I can link to this video whenever someone tries to claim I care about authenticity just because I’m “just another racist cis white male” and not because race swapping Tolkein’s work is not okay.
This video needs to be shared. It's an excellent rebuttal.
Can't tell you how much I appreciate your response videos -- there is little more satisfying content available anywhere than when someone who is truly knowledgeable calmly, exhaustively, and definitively delivers such a devastatingly thorough and complete defense of an issue. When that defense simultaneously exposes the opponent as not only arrogant, conceited, and vain but likely suffering from a severe case of the Dunning-Kruger effect. it is doubly satisfying. I so wish we could schedule a debate with you JSG and the authors of the featured article - that's something I'd pay to see!
I wonder when we will get some african stories made into series and movies...
they have also many myths and strange magical creatures in their folklore afterall...
Im really curious here...
Why must everything be blackchanged nowdays when there is an entire continents worth of untouched folklore their myths their legends their strange magical creatures and untapped storytelling materials yet to be discovered right in front of us !
That would require work.
@@conradmills4977
Corrupting is easy...
Creating is godly...
There is Imaro bring adapted by MSNBC, Children of Blood and Bone by Paramount, Raybearer by Netflix, Black Leopard Red Wolf by Warner Bros and Michael B Jordan's company Outlier Society and Kingdom of Souls by the same company. Also Who Fears Death by HBO.
Someone needs to explain to companies like Amazon and Disney that when they buy the rights to a beloved piece of culturally significant art that they don't actually own the art in the way they imagine. They own a license that says they get to be the ones to make money off that art. The fans, the people who love the art, who maybe grew up loving it having it define and shape them, they actually own it because they're the one's that give it value. That value doesn't transfer just because you slap a familiar title on something alien and wrong. The more these companies abuse the privilege of having that license the less what they make matters to fans because it's nothing but a mockery of what they actually value.
JSG, it helps a lot that your opinions align closely with mine on many things, but I also have to say that I keep coming back to this site to enjoy your well constructed and supported arguments. It's almost an aesthetic pleasure. Thanks. 👍
You're killing it dude. Great stuff, as ever.
War of Dragons is legit dragons and wizards in Africa. But no one wants to adapt it!
They're lazy and just wants quick money. But hey, that's sounds good.
Do you mean Rage of Dragons?
@@admirekashiri6651 probably, its the Evan Winters one
@@jim-bob3093 ye that's it I was wondering because as a African fantasy fan I'd know a fantasy called War of Dragons 😂.
Another show I will never watch.
I think when people talk about Tolkien making a legendarium for the English, it's more specifically the old English, the anglo-saxons, before the norman conquest almost a thousand years ago it's not meant to represent what England looks like today
Yes, that is exactly what Tolkien did . He loved Nordic, and Celtic folklore. I mean, the Hobbits are obviously English, the Rohirrim are Viking/anglo saxon. He wrote about what he loved. Now us Ringers, we love it too 😍
3:18 You know, the Haradrim were practically enslaved by the Numinorians. It would have been no problem to make them black without breaking the lore and you could still have your "message".
That actually needs some talent and having ppl that actually knows the lore... no this self-procclaimed "Tolkien Scholars."
Where were you when they were writing this shit?! We needed you!
@@TRENCHESandTREADS haradrim is a general term imo, I don’t think it’s totally bad to have some African populations shown amongst the Arabs. Harad gives me Moors vibes.
You know that’s what I originally thought that they’d do; have some mixed blood Numenorean be played by some mixed actor, because even in my darkest dreams I didn’t even conceptualize that they’d cast black elves or dwarves. It’s so non-Tolkien and dumb. You can at least twist the lore to have to darker skinned Numenoreans, but this stuff is just a flat out lie.
@@roguewasbanned4746 that actually would be quite accurate. With the Haradrim enslaved you know the noble Black Numinorians would have harems filled with Haradrim girls. Whether they are Arab or Black after a few generations the Black Numinorians would have dark skin.
I really want to know where the dark skinned folks go between the Second and Third Age. Was there an Elven Hitler?
They got their hands on SK II serum. Skin whitening.
This is probably the most hilarious part of this entire mess.
They were so obsessed with doing something they didn't bother to consider the implications of what they were doing.
(thanks malcolm/Mr crichton).
Dude this was the same problem a few years back when they said Orcs and Urukai where racist. These people that are writing the article are the real racists because they just project minorities on to them even though that was never the intention and they stumble on themselves when they do it. The Orcs being racist article was a particularly telling one since the first person to make the argument was a Mongolian guy saying that his people where depicted since Tolkien did reference the Mongolians when he was making Orcs but then another reporter say the headline "Why Orcs are racist" or something along those lines and thought "You know what he is right they do look racist... They are obviously talking about Black people!!!" and the made their article about how white people see black people in media. Since the moron didnt even read the whole damn article they just made up shit and now we are here where Tolkien's work is now "problematic".
If anything, I would argue that the Orcs is likely a more anti-working class trope.. I mean, they all had bloody "East End Barrowboy" accents in the film...
@@scottmcmahon86 Long ago before all this blew up and became oversimplified, I thought maybe the orcs were supposed to resemble Turks, or the medieval Christian concept of Turks.
Love your content!
Yup, that about sums it up.
Now I need to listen again so I can remember some of the good points.
"Update outdated, unacceptable tropes"....yeah, that's their ultimate goal. They don't care about adapting the work, they only want to make something their own because they're greedy, self centered gremlins.
Always enjoy JSG.
"Kind Regards, Mr. Carl F. Hostetter *and no one else.* " One of the most polite burns I've ever read.
Much needed video, thank you.
3:20 as soon as I heard that they made Prometheus black, and then on top of that, added a slavery angle to this Ancient Greek story, made me immediately cringe. It wasn’t the race swapping that bothered me, up until you decided to make it about slavery. First off, slavery wasn’t exclusive to Africans. Almost every nation on Earth has had some history with enslaving people of different nations that can be traced as far back as ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt. Also, it’s an Ancient Greek story that they’re colonizing by adding American centric themes onto this tale, and they’re doing the same thing in the rings of power by how the trailer showed a black elf and images of chains. It’s all so tiresome.
Literally every cultural/ethnic group on the planet has been enslaved at one time or another. And nearly every nation on earth has been a part of enslaving *someone*.
But just TRY and explain about *actual history* to one of these activist MORONS, and they immediately start REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEing and screaming 'mUh RaCiSm!!'
I agree, it's very tiresome.
That's an interesting use of the word colonizing there, I had never really thought about it that way, but you are right. They're essentially Americanizing a work of fiction that belongs to a different culture and people, colonizing it with American history and mythologizing it through American values. Which is obviously inherently hypocritical of anyone claiming to be against such things.
@@roberthesser6402
Also actual Cultural Appropriation. Something they're also supposed to be against.
Greece was full of slavery. Spartan society was literally built on slavery, there were more slaves than free men. But they didn't see it as immoral, so making a Greek myth about slavery is idiotic.
@@roberthesser6402 the term for it is American Cultural Imperialism.
JSG had you heard of anyone claiming Tolkien was racist in his writing prior to Amazon getting involved in LOTR?
I certainly haven't heard of it until now
They have. There have been papers written trying to suggest Tolkien was racist with ‘black Orcs’, ‘mongol features’, and the black half trolls at the Pelonnor fields.
The irony is, now these same wokists are saying Tolkien would embrace the diversity Amazon has shoehorned in.
So they make whatever argument that suits their present need.
Its coming from quite long time actually
@@bry8636
Yup. They're also claiming at the same time that Tolkien is woke.🤣
That 'maybe if he lives today, his characters will be diverse' or something like that.🤦♀️
@@bry8636 AKA confirmation bias.
7:00 'Artististic Representation'. F'ing awesome.
Commenting for the algorithm. People need to see more of your work👍
There is literally an untapped resource of African myth but nah let's change this story
There are stories already written on this.
Why am I not surprised.
Because you know very well that reality is often disappointing.
Thanks for documenting this.
My dude you are continuing the work of Christopher Tolkien in spirit and I can't tell you how much I appreciate it