What is Classic Fantasy? w/Philip Chase, Library Ladder & A Critical Dragon
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- Опубликовано: 18 май 2024
- This was fun to moderate these fine gentleman's thoughts on classic fantasy! Add your voice to the discussion below! And of course follow
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Thanks for watching!
Thanks, Josh, for inviting me to participate! It was a lot of fun. We left a few stones unturned (due to time constraints), but I hope we conveyed the idea that the distinction between traditional and modern fantasy is more complex and nuanced than it's often presented.
100%! I appreciate your time and great insights into this discussion!
Thank you for including me in this discussion, Josh! I thoroughly enjoyed resolving absolutely nothing with such distinguished gents for company!
We didn't resolve anything but had fun doing so. Thanks again for joining!
It was good to see the best of the best put their heads together and try to define the nearly undefinable, ha. Outstanding chat and great job moderating!
Haha we tried! :)
A great morning coffee watch: fine gentlemen, and AP, discussing one of my favourite things. 😀 Thanks guys!
Finished. Total failure to define classic fantasy. 1 star, would not recommend. 😆
But seriously, great discussion. ♥️
Haha, yes, we failed the assignment miserably, but had fun doing so!
Wow! I could have listened to a much longer dialogue between these speakers. Perhaps do a part 2 to deep dive into obscure but good "classics/classical" works in a way to answer the central question of this episode.
What a crew!
I love the roguishness of Jack Vance's hero's, his very dark humour and his detailed descriptions of plants, sea travel, animals, colours, music and aromas. He has long been one of my favourite authors.
I've yet to read Vance but definitely want to do so.
Wow what a cast! This is a legendary video . Thanks Josh for gathering for us all these stars.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Since I first heard it mentioned I knew this conversation was going to be a very fascinating one and I wasn't disappointed! Already had massive respect for Bridger from his channel and then he brings up Lady Trent and Lud-In-The-Mist, two works I can't shut up about. So much to think about from this one, will definitely be rewatching a few times!
Yes, these three guys are so knowledgeable and I always learn about new works from them!
What an incredible chat among 4 great minds on a fascinating topic. So much of the discussion here resonated with me. In particular, me needing a certain type of prose to immerse me into secondary world settings, and that, personally, does not include 21st century slang, lol. Hence one of the reasons all the definitions of 'classic' touched upon here really work for me, and I adore.
Glad you enjoyed it, P.L.!
I think Bridger really nailed it when he brought up the point about classics being ahead of their own time. There's a reason we still study Jane Austen and Shakespeare, they provided insights that went beyond their own time periods. I think the more timeless something is, the higher chance it can reach that classic status.
Amen.
Yes, there is generally a universality to a classic that makes it timeless.
Shakespeare had plenty of fantastical elements to his plays
@@RedFuryBooks Now define "universality". 🤣
Fascinating discussion. It puts into perspective the depth and nuance that fantasy (and fiction for that matter) has. Would love a continuation of this discussion with the crew again!
I'd absolutely love to put this panel together again!
Kind with Bridger's point, when we think in our heads and not defining the exact aspects of what makes "classical" fantasy "classical", why it's an evocation of feelings of what "classics" (in terms of fantastical books that definED the genre) brought to the table.
It does make me question if modern fantasy could ever be considered "classical" if enough time has past and the genre as a whole has moved on to such a degree where there feels like a seperation in prose, what books went for etc.
But it also makes me wonder what works of "classical" fantasy may have stuck out from the crowd, and if we look at them criticially, would they be considered "classical" or simply more seen as "classics"
I have no idea what I am saying, as I am stuck on my side waiting for my eardrops to get rid of this infection haha
I'd also be curious to see how we end up looking at genres say in 100s of years based on how world views may change and such.
I mean lets say somehow there is a world where racism is non-existent, how would reading works of fantasy depicting opression and segregation of individuals be seen differently?
After all, we could see the rise of grimdark as societal responses to a loss of faith in world leaders, where we have resigned ourselves to the fact that humannity is not all powerful, and we may be destined to faliure.
So, would we in the future view aspects of grimdark in terms of niahlism and grey characters as "classical" in terms of evoking what was commonly expressed as art in the genre, and art afterall is a human urge to translate inner emotions and thoughts into another medium
This video is great!
You did booktube a service putting together a panel like this to discuss this topic!
Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great discussion. For a follow-up, I'd love to see a more fine-grained discussion to look at what was happening in each decade, say, from the 1930s to the 1990s, to get a feeling for how fantasy changed over that time and what the major works of the genres were, and what influence they had. I think that the category of traditional fantasy as anything before the 1990s is not helpful, because the fantasy from, say, the 1970s was again very different from the 1950s, and so on. You can't put Zelazny, Tolkien and Edgar Rice Burroughs into a single group and call it traditional.
I was thinking on similar lines with the decades idea. And your last sentence speaks volumes of truth!
What fantastic discussion. As someone familiar with the fantasy genre but only just dipping into reading stuff outside Tolkien it was great to hear this discussion about where things were compared to what it is now. I think reading a mix of both going forward will be a fun way to dive deeper into the genre. Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Lots of fun … made me think about the role of nostalgia in classical fantasy. “A galaxy far away” in a fantasy setting as it were
Very interesting discussion. Shout out to Phillip K. Chase for attempting to keep everyone on topic lol I suspect it was just too fun of a topic to avoid interesting tangents!
Because of this video I'm jumping right into Lord Foul's Bane today.
I hope you enjoy it!
This video is soooo good! I knew having such huge brains collected together would end in a sprawling and divergent discussion.
glad you enjoyed it, Al!
Great chat gentlemen, I must echo Jarrod's sentiment that it's nice to see these heavyweights of fantasy Booktube getting together to define what 'classic fantasy' actually is. I find that when most people say 'classic' they think of Lord of the Rings or even Conan The Barbarian. Or if they don't know about those properties, they may even think of A Song of Ice and Fire and The First Law, even though those series' are directly responding to those two properties. I find it speaks to an ignorance about the history of fantasy and where it's come from, and I recently made a video talking about Tolkien and Robert E. Howard's impact on the fantasy genre and if fantasy is stuck in those models, but I don't want to shill here too shamelessly ;).
I guess when I think of 'classic' fantasy, I think of the quest narrative. Rather it be Lord of The Rings, Star Wars, The Odyssey, and The Iliad, the quest narrative has always been one of fantastical literature's most enduring story structures. Even Black Leopard, Red Wolf, as bizarre, feverish, and unique as it is, is at it's core a classic quest narrative, though done in Marlon James' own unique style. I imagine there will be people who will nitpick my definition, but that's what I think of when I think of 'classic fantasy.'
AP's discussions about fantasy's cyclical nature was particularly interesting for me, since I see literature as a conversation between authors. Tolkien was responding to Eddison, Morris, and the classics he loved, Moorcock responded to Tolkien, as did Martin and Abercrombie. It's a fascinating topic that I wish was covered more on BookTube. This was great Josh, thanks for getting this together.
AP's identification of the cyclical nature of fantasy was an eye-opener for me, as I compared it immediately to dual Apollonian and Dionysian ideals that went back and forth in music composition and other arts through the centuries.
What an illustrious panel!! I enjoyed every minute of this. Thanks to you all for such a stirring convo!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Think that's my first time seeing Bridger on a booktube panel, he made a really good addition to the convo. :)
I was on a panel with Bridger on Johanna's channel talking about Guy Gavriel Kay about a month ago, if you want to see him in another panel! He's great.
@@RedFuryBooks Thanks for the recommendation, I absolutely will! Also can't forget to thank you for setting up this convo to begin with, this was wonderful
@@fallout766 Trust me, the pleasure was mind in putting this panel together!
I have been alternating Classic and Modern Fantasy since my reboot of fantasy reading started again with the Witcher novels in 2020.
I must say that I consider the Wheel of Time thoroughly Modern. The transitional novel for me would be Memory, Sorrow and Thorn! One foot in and one foot out….although Daughter of the Empire could take that honor too but that book is still more modern than modern, no foot in the classic, especially since the heroine does not have red hair.👩🦰
Wheel of Time is positively post-apocalyptic!
That's a great approach going back and forth between the classics and more modern works. And your point about Mara not being a red-headed heroine almost made me spit out my coffee!
@@RedFuryBooks
Princess Eilonwy & Ce'Nedra, Guinevere, even princess-like Anita in Silverthorn, Triss Marigold, Enna Spade, Avienda, Elayne..well in WOT to be fair, Rand has the red hair too!!
@@heidi6281 Yes! I was thinking when I first read wheel of Time (5 years ago) "Wow, a red-headed protagonist! Where was this when I was a kid!" 🤣
Great conversation! I’m new to your channel. Excited to follow along for future videos/discussions! ✨
Welcome aboard! Glad you enjoyed the discussion!
Personally, I believe a fantasy story is defined by whether or not it has magic. If it has a dragon but no magic, then the dragon is just a fictional animal, and the story isn't fantasy. You can have a science fiction story where dragons exist on another planet, but the story would still remain science fiction and not fantasy.
Likewise, science fiction is defined by whether or not it has fictional technology, and I think most people would agree as its right in the name.
Two of my favorite early childhood fantasy reads were the princess and the Goblin and Phantastes
What a fun and wonderful discussion. I think that on a meta-level your discussion really reveals the nature of genres and sub-genres as a social construct. The only way to define them is to use intersubjectivity as these definitions were never made for authors to adhere to but for readers (and experts) to discuss, explain and understand when interacting with books and with each other.
As a corollary, really any defining can only be done by establishing an intersubjective definition in the setting you're currently in. Your definitions and perspectives are all very much defined by your own experience and views and interactions you've had in the past with books and with people about books. I'd bet the perspectives offered might change when you'd have added some younger readers, casual readers, or maybe even female readers of similar age.
Please by no means take this remark as a criticism. I love your perspectives and learned a lot by reflecting with you on the subject. It is just an observation that I think might add to the discussion, Although I Think AP kind of eluded to this.
Using another musical analogy, critics complained that ELP just wanted to write classical music. Which is exactly what they were doing, and Emerson not acknowledging the original piece didn't help.
And much like music, you see a change as society changes. Or authorial experiences. Tolkein, Wolfe and Cook were veterans of different wars and you can see how that impacted their writing. Or how you have the origination of grimdark with 40k as a reaction to the Reagan/Thatcher era AP aluded to.
Fantasy and Sci Fi allow an author to talk about something without talking about it. Crossing medium again, the original Planet of the Apes is an anti-war civil rights movie dressed up in literal monkey suits.
But in closing, you could confuse the issue even more and see if you can come up with what modern fantasy is.
Oh man, defining modern fantasy would be even tougher!
Loved this talk, would honestly love it on subgenres in general. I mean even from a musical perspective, man even knowing metal subgenres is impossible at times to keep atop of
Absolutely!
AP’s discussion of translation is especially interesting to me. I just heard Erica, of @MoAnInc, interview Emily Wilson about Wilson’s translation of The Iliad. Wilson said that she elects, when translating, to stick with that which will most clearly convey the emotion she feels Homer was trying to elicit as opposed to a direct literal translation. This really sparked with me because her Iliad reads so vividly (for me at least) where other translations read flat. Now I’m not likening The Iliad to Fourth Wing (Gods forbid) but I do think maybe the Wilson interview really goes to the heart of AP’s argument.
And thank you all for this discussion. It’s fascinating.
wow, fantastic in-depth interview. I think the contents should be further developed into a dozen episodes so that beginner fantasy readers can understand fully.
I was an avid “escapee to other worlds” from the moment I could read for myself. I would devour anything I could get my hands on. I was lucky to read Enid Blyton’s Enchanted Wood, Wishing Chair etc from young.
At prep the school chose The Sword in the Stone and The Hobbit when I was 8, and an incredible dystopian novel when 9 (don’t know the name but the story has stayed with me to this day). Many the stories I read about ponies (horse mad child) had magical mystery and myth.
For my 18th birthday (after a move from UK to NZ) we were travelling the South Island and my 18th gift was a new set of LOTR, my very own, so I was re reading as we drove and remember thinking if it was ever made into movies it would have to be filmed in NZ. That was in late 80s.
I was so so happy when Peter Jackson announced the movies.
Classic for me is hard to apply as I was lucky to read so many great and unusual fantasy in the 80s and 90s.
I think classic if based on year of publishing, to me is the period where us nerds had no idea when books would appear in bookshops. We just visited often .. in hope 😊
My big 80s ones were Katherine Kerr, Anne MCaffrey, Eddings, Gemmell, Feist, Wurts, Clive Barker, Tad, Megan Lindholm, Weiss and Hickman etc
Also loads of fantasy cross historical in 80s like Sharon Penman, Steven Lawhead and many others that crossed history/myth with fantasy elements.
I think the books I would rate as the early modern would be Hobb, Martin, Bishop and Rothfuss. Where characters had a lot more layers and complexity. Plots began to really twist and turn.
Most would rate Sanderson as “modern” but I found Mistborn very childish, female characters were awful. The plot obvious.
Parts of Hobb’s books are very very dark and would give some official grimdark a run.
I would I think put the classical label instead on books with fantasy elements but also with landscapes and features that could be a part of the earth we know. They have that element of towns structured a way we would expect at some time in our own history. Cultures with some basis on our own. Creatures we recognise.
Ultimately I think the world aspect and pre 2000 to me is what triggers a classical identification.
Thank you for your thoughtful responses here in this thread.
Something I find intresting when Philip talked on how what is classical fantasy is perceived as may not be so with future generations. And I DO wonder how that would be affected by simply the fact that we have the internet/social media and thus despite the genre moving years into the future, in how we discuss genre, classical fantasy MAY still be perceived as this "certain" period before the 90s?
Yes, that's definitely a great point about how it will be perceived in the future. We're honestly too close to a lot of it to predict its legacy.
Wheel of Time for me.
If you make an exception for the Wheel of Time series, any book with a Darrell K Sweet cover would probably pass for classic fantasy.
Right on!
So, all those Piers Anthony books then? Yikes!
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd It's not high art, but Piers checks a lot of boxes. He even did the standard portal fantasy that was so common for the time. Last PA book I read was And Eternity in 1990 so my memory is a little fuzzy.
for people who want to get into fantasy:
read the tale of beren and luthien, Nírnaeth Arnoediad, of turin turambar, tuor and the fall of gondolin and finally the travels of earendil and the war of wrath. those are inside of the silmarillion book.
I agree - the lesser known works of Tolkien (read: anything not the Hobbit or LOTR) are not as read as they should be.
I think starting pints depend on ages and interests. Under 12 list would be very different to someone who is an adult feminist where I would recommend The Empire Series and Deverry series.
Deverry was first published in 1982, it has that classic feel but due to the reincarnation we see females come as males in some cycles and visa versa. Was very clever. Empire has one of the best females characters even to today.
I think if someone can’t handle The Hobbit I would not be suggesting anything from the Silmarillion just yet.
Great discussion! What author does Prof. Chase mention after Donaldson at 54:43 (ruclips.net/video/rDtAhDFMN38/видео.html)?
He mentions David Gemmell, who I definitely recommend!
I'm almost an hour in to the discussion and you guys haven't even managed to define your terms yet 😂
(I suspect "classic" is going to be more difficult than "fantasy" as I continue the listening...)
Spoiler alert: we didn't really draw any big conclusions, but had a great time talking about it!
1:00:01 what a joke
1:16:28 wait Erikson finished the whole series in the 90s?
No, the first book and the conception of what the series would be was done in the early '90s. Gardens didn't get published until 1999. The rest followed at roughly one a year.
@@ACriticalDragonok that’s what I thought, but it sounded (to me, i probably just fouled up your meaning, as is my wont) like you were saying he wrote them all and just had trouble finding interest until the late 90s, when finally they started getting published.
I was confused partly* bc I feel like i remembered at least one had to be restarted? And one-maybe the same one, but either way-was written right as his father passed away.
*the other part being the aforementioned foul-up, which (neither excuse nor slight against myself) is typically due to slight cognition/learning disorder related things.
@@billyalarie929 No worries at all. I could have been clearer. Part of the issue is that in a live conversation with people I can't always think of the perfect phrasing, or the clearest way to say something. I try... but do not always succeed.
the thing about "classic fantasy" is that it's a thing from plato's world of forms imposed from above without regard for history, it's mostly nonsense. Fantasy is Tokiens invention, you can read the moment were he made it up in his essay "on fearie stories", so whatever is in the tradition of tolkien is Fantasy, if you want to discuss things without talking nonsense. that doesn't mean there can't be novels with wizards and dragons, it's just that it's a different beasts, categories are crap, traditions are real.
Edit: also, there can be more than one tradition with magic and dragons in it, for example, the elric books are in the tradition of Conan, you could call that Sword & Sorcery.
Despite liking AP, at times, AP just seems to love the sound of his own voice. His points are valid, but he waxes on far too long to belabor a point, take over the conversation and stall it.