I watched all your videos and built our first car with my daughter based on your tricks and we won!!! First race ever and our car was a full second faster than the others, couldn't believe my eyes LOL. Thank You Thane for all your great tips, you made a kid really happy (and her parents) ;)
My daughter is a scout. Just found out she has a Derby in a week. Cramming for a competition. Tia is for the update. Great video. It’s exactly as I suspected it would be.
Used your tips and our car ran and average of 2.61 and came in second in our BSA Pinewood Derby Race. The car that beat us ran an average of 2.60. No one else came close to these times. 5 minutes before the race my son snapped a back axle off , so much for the hours fine tuning the position , found some duck tape and the rest is history. Thank for the tips!
Thane, just wanted to tell you Thank You for posting your tips for pinewood derby racing. I followed all of your videos, and my girls won 1st place in two separate divisions! Being this was our first pinewood derby, the girls had a great time and both standing at the top with 1st place trophies. Thanks again, they're already planning for their next car.. ~Bill
Thanks. Basic stuff that is helpful to first timers however we’ve just learned that a large majority of participants are doing these things in 2018! Time to Level Up!
You'll be surprised how many bad cars are out there. Focus on wheels and axles for best results. Do all 5 tips and you'll be one of the top cars for sure!! Please subscribe. I need to get to 1,000 so I can keep making money from RUclips.
Your tips worked well. Thank you. This was our first derby. My son place 3rd in his division. His car was ugly and not very flat. But it was fast. Our weight was exactly 5oz. I super glued four stacks of pennies on the top over the back axle and about five pennies on the bottom of the car near the axle. It was a mess. Super glue even got on the wheels :( But I polished the axles and angled them and rode the rail. We beat so many well seasoned racers that had much better designed cars. The difference was riding the rail! Man, it really works great. If my car was flatter it would have been faster. Our average time was 3.2 Thanks again, Kenny Rodriguez, and my son Alex Pack 246 Tampa, Fl
Congrats. Imagine how much you could improve with a sleek design. Perhaps next year. And for weight, go to a hobby shop and buy Tungsten if you want the heaviest stuff, or at least the lead weights they offer. Pennies and coins are NOT very heavy. haha. Good work.
I wish you could see the videos I took. Look me up on Facebook under Kenny Rodriguez, are you on Facebook? I have the videos from the derby up there. I totally gave you the credit for my speed. I had to tell them not to adjust my wheels or axles because they thought I put them on wrong. I told them it was purposely riding on 3 wheels and the wheels were angled on purpose. I told them I was rail riding. They were like..Huh? After my first race they were impressed, time of 3.2 . The fastest car was 3.1. I was hanging tuff with the big boys. We were undefeated for the first 3 races.
It was our first time ever racing in a Pinewood Derby. My kids are all hooked. Great family time. We want to find some local people to do this with on regular basis. My kids and I can't wait. I need to invest in a power saw like a dremel tool. Cutting by hand was a nightmare. And your right, I can't wait to build a flatter car, with proper weights. And this time I won't get super glue on the tires :)
***** Awesome! It's always a rush for your first race, and you're like... is this gonna work or bomb! Then coming in first in that initial race is so cool! Too many Kenny's in facebook. Try to tag me under Thane Roland Walton. There are not so many of me.
haha... what's the difference between light polishing and heavy polishing??? I would just use straight nails and polish them well. Nails and Wheels are a top priority for fast cars.
Would love to see a video on inserting axles. In previous comments you mention a tool that you use for drilling the rear holes. Would love to see it or read a description. You say that you bend one front axle... how? With the expensive tool from derbyworx or a homegrown method?
I've used the expensive tools, but I've also done it without... For the cheap DIY solution, you can simply angle the block and screw holes at an angle. The you'll want one nail bent which will allow you to adjust how much your car veers. To bend a nail DIY, just grip nail in middle with needle nose pliers. Then hammer the pointed edge to give it some bend. Make sure you've already polished nail, because once you bend it, you can't polish it. Also, make sure you don't damage the head when you bend it. (I'll see if I can do a new video on this topic and walk through the process.)
Thane we followed 3 of your 5 tips last year and won 1st in our age group & 2nd overall. Trying to follow all 5 tips this year so we can get 1st overall. 2 questions though: 1) How do you get only 3 wheels to touch & not the 4th? and 2) How do you angel the wheels? Sorry if this is obvious...just a boy mom here trying to figure this out!
Well done last year!! Good luck this time around. Q1: ON FRONT WHEEL... drill a new hold, or make groove deeper, so when you put in nail, the wheel is off the ground and doesn't touch. With all your weight in the rear, the two back wheels touch and only 1 in front. Q2: Without a tool, the easiest is just to insert nails at an angle. rear outward /----\ and the front inward \---- / (but one in front raised). The one that touches in front you want to roll INTO the rail. BUT BEWARD... when you angle the nails, you need to make sure the wheels don't rub on the wood. You might need to cut out a LOT of wood so nothing rubs. (If you look closely at some of my videos, you can see how I've carved a lot of wood away from the wheel area.)
This is one of the best video's (and I have watched a lot) that I have seen so far. My son's race is this weekend. I plan on doing all of the tips you have shown (some of your tips I had already incorporated into the car before I watched this). I will let you know how we do. Thank you for taking the time to post this and the video was not that long ;-)
Good luck! Lube those wheels well, and then don't touch them. You'll find with graphite that the car gets faster with each race, and peaks around race 10. So when guys add more graphite during the races, they are actually hurting their car.
Thane Walton We came in 4th....not bad for a couple of first timers, LOL. I had a little trouble getting the wheels to mount like I wanted to, but we learned this go around and will be ready for next year. Thanks again for the help!
bouncingsoul777 Awesome. Good luck next time. If you start from the beginning with my tips in mind, you should do great. Smooth and lubed up axles are top priority.
We too have become pinewood fanatics. Fastest of the pack 4 years running and just took second at our first visit to districts this year. We've never done rail riders because our pack track does not have a center rail and as such a curving rail rider would be a disadvantage. But the district track did have a center rail and we built a second car specifically for that track and as I stated above, we didn't do bad for our first visit. My question is about the toeing of the front dominant wheel. Both back wheels are toed out to ride on the nail head and I understand the principle of giving up a little friction for stability and it works. But when it comes to the front dominant wheel, I've seen two schools of thought. One having the wheel that toes out like the rear wheels and others that toe in like in your instructional videos. What is the advantage of doing it your way? My only guess is that by toeing the wheel in, it creates a single contact point against the wheel thus creating less friction. Toeing out can potentially cause two points of contact, one front and back of the wheel, and thus causing more friction with the rail. Is this a correct assumption of the toe in advantage?
Thane Walton Thank you. I doubled the gap on the rear wheels so there was no problem there. But I think that toeing out was the difference between 1st and 2nd. We were behind by .02 seconds. It was our first attempt at rail-riding and I definitely won't forget it.
Thank you for the tips. I followed your advice last year and my boys came in 1st/2nd place. My question is we race on a 20 yr old wooden track. Yesterday one of our cars did well during practice but our other car had bad wobble. It actually came off the track it wobbled so bad. We have the weight about 1 inch in front rear axle. We had it 3 wheeling that I think may not be good for the wooden track. Back up a moment. I tested both cars at home and the one car in question rolled super straight. We have another 5 days before the real race. I was hoping for some help on the best camber and toe for wooden tracks. Thank you
Boy, that's a tough one. I haven't raced on wooden tracks in years, and when I did, they were very nicely maintained. The fact that it was rolling well at home (I'm guessing you have a track), and then poorly on the wooden track probably means the track is in bad shape. My only suggestion is to run more tests on the wooden track, play with the veer more or less, and find a spot that it runs nice and consistent.
8:18 ... far from a standard cub scout car :) We never polished the axles to a mirror finish. We stop at about 1000 wet/dry, then with paper towel, isopropyl alcohol and graphite burnish/polish with the graphite...the non-mirror finish provides enough grab to build a better film of graphite on the axel. We do reduce the overall nail head diameter by a smidgen and ensure the stamp spline is removed.
Did a google search for: how to build a pinewood derby car for track with no center rail Found this: www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/car-design-for-a-track-with-no-center-rail-7195721
Really great video! Question…How far into the body of the car do you place your axle/nail…ie do you use a spacer guide to insure uniformity?? Thank you
Hi Thane- I've enjoyed your videos the last couple years. I've noticed that a lot of fast cars are just very flat rectangular cars. The last couple years we have cut most of that wood out between the axles (front to back) and just made a very skinny body that connects regular-width axles, with the concentration then of as much weight as possible at the back in one place. I would think that is the most advantageous, but curious about your thoughts versus the flat slab.
When it comes to the minute little details that make one car faster than another, the cars at the very top need to focus on aerodynamics. So the issue with a skinny body is that it opens you up to more wind resistance drag. Most of the experts that have tested multiple body types find that thin flat with fenders is the absolute best. But here's the other secret they use... the body is often almost all hollowed out, and then they use vellum paper on top and bottom of body. This way the body is flat, yet super light. That said, far and away where all the races are won is in the expertise of wheel and axle preparation. If you're not getting under 3.000 seconds on full length track, then you probably need more focus on wheels and axles. Have fun racing!
On your flat slab cars, are you using a tungsten disc plus other weights? If you drill all the way through how are you finishing the top so the weights aren't visible?
I've rarely used the big disk. On this video, right at the start you can see it on one car in my box. Now we just use tungsten cubes. Most bodies start like this one I found... www.derbydad4hire.com/Plug-N-Play-VIPER-PreDrilled-Rail-Runner-Pinewood-Derby-Block-BL-PNPV.htm If you look at pics, you can see it is carved out underneath, and you can glue in the weights you need.
Some other vids to look at. My dad is the real fanatic. Here you see a ton of bodies... Most are thin and flat if they are good... ruclips.net/video/iZ2tGRDJYAM/видео.html&t
One more good short vid. Look closely at this car. It is all carved out. For the weights, he glued 1/64th inch balsa on back to secure weights. Then when it was done, he put velllum tape on body for best aerodynamics. ruclips.net/video/iZ2tGRDJYAM/видео.html&t
Could you do a video on hire your cars are weighted? I see these super thin cars and wonder how to add enough weight to get them to 5oz and keep them so thin.
I just posted a new video with some weight examples. Check it out for full discussion. Summary: design thin car, then use dremel tool to carve out some space in rear, then use TUNGSTEN cubes, and glue in as many as you need. then add epoxy filler and sand after it has hardened.
For the rail riders, you would want the contact wheel against the rail and not the raised wheel correct? Riding the rail against the raised wheel defeats the purpose of raising it. I don't see many videos explaining this. I've used your video last year to help me and my son with last years tournament. We finished 2nd place. Hope to do better this year. Thanks.
+scobod Glad to hear last year went well. Yes. The wheel touching the ground is the one you want veering into the rail. Work a lot on the nails and wheels. Then load them up with graphite. Once the races start, don't add any graphite. The car should get a little faster each race until about the 10th one when it peaks out.
Thane, one problem with rail riding is what if the track that you have to run on is not good. Where the seams are not perfect and rails are miss aligned so the rail sticks out on the down hill side of the seam. Which would cause significant issues with the wheel and slow the car down.
I disagree... if the track is poor quality, all the more reason to rail ride. That way you'll hug the rail throughout all the bumps and nicks. Without the rail riding, your car could bump and bounce all over. With the rail riding, you'll slide back against the rail after any little bumps. Trust me. Follow all the other tips. Especially polished axles.
That would work as well. The key is just a small part of wheel touching. And if you're "riding the rail," you want to make sure the back wheels don't touch. That's one advantage of angling the wheels away to make sure they don't hit the rail.
Hello Thane, I was wondering how much space should be left between the wheel and the car. I would imagine if the wheels are too far away that leaves more wiggle room and would slow the car down. I read somewhere that the space should be about 2 business cards width away . Not sure how true that is... Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated. Thank u.
I have used the two business card trick - I cut a square notch in the business cards so I could insert the cards over the axel between the car and the body of the car to get the proper distance...
Thanks! I definitely will but I think I should skip trying rail riding next year. Everyone else built straight riding cars. I think I have a better shot trying to go straight next year.
If done correctly, rail riding shaves time off ANY type of track. Trust me, we've tested them all. The only exception is the OLD wood tracks that don't have a center guide rail. Instead they have two outer guide rails. But those old tracks are very rare.
On the black car, I noticed you did something special to the lifted wheel. It appears to be glued against the body, while the other cars have the lifted wheel loose. What was the thought in doing this and did this help the black car? Additionally, the black car's lifted wheel appears to have the inside filled in with something white'ish in color. Again, what was the thought behind it, and did it help the black car?
I took a clear piece of plastic and glued it to the inside of the raised wheel. Goal was to reduce air drag on the useless wheel. The experts say this helps, but the help is so minimal it is not worth the effort, unless you're racing in a super competitive league and have the chance to test your car and experiment with different options.
You want the "center of gravity" about 0.5 - 1.0 inches in front of rear wheel. Because there is more length and thus typically more weight toward the front, in order to get the center of gravity in the right place, most weight will need to be pretty close to the rear axle.
Hi Thane. Gr8 videos! Do you find it helps to have grooved axels if you are packing them with graphite & alcohol (pre-mix) or just smooth axles when rail riding? Many Thx!! Keep up the videos.
I have not run my own tests with grooved axles, but I hear the grooved are slightly better. I would think it has more to do with having less friction than the fact that there is a lube reservoir.
Our rules state that the full width of at least three wheels must be touching the ground, so I can't angle the back wheels, is it worth still angling the front right if the other three can't be angled?
Wow! Tough rules. Full width of wheel touching. I'm guessing the rules said you can't make the wheels any thinner, right. Surely not. If I were building, I would still lift one of the front wheels. Doesn't matter how you do it, but raise one up. I would still try rail riding with a slight veer. The front wheel that touches is the one you want rolling into the center track.
@@thanethebrain Thanks for the reply. You're correct that we can't really mess with removing tread, we can polish it, but that's about all. That is what I was thinking, lift the front left, and the veering the front right a little so it heads towards the rail but still full width touching. Thanks!
I was looking into the fins... it says the plastic ones weigh 3.1 grams... that's seems like a lot of weight and takes away from placing thed weight in the back... any thoughts? TIA
Early in the infancy of fenders, people tried 4 vs 2 (rear only) vs none. It took some time for the data to sort out, but now the top cars use fenders on all 4 wheels.
Thane, This is my second year doing this with me 8 year old Scout. Last year we bent the axels with a tool, this year I drilled canted holes with a different tool. I am a little concerned about the wheels touching the car with the new method. Do you have an opinion or experience with canting the axels? Best angle 2.5? How far to keep wheels from car? Cant axle with angled drilling or with bent axle? Thank you so much Thane
Just saw your note... If you look closely at my cars, you'll see I used a dremel tool to really carve out a LOT of wood so that there was no rubbing. Especially in the rear since the wheels are canted so that top is bumping into the body. Carve a lot of wood away.
Just search "Pinewood Derby track." They come in single lane, double, triple, quad, and 6 lanes! This four lane setup with timer was about $1500 a few years ago.
Doesn't matter which wheel touches. I tell guys to keep testing both sides until you find which one rides into the rail. So if the left tire touches, you want the car turning right.
Thane Walton Thank you Thane! Yes, it does pull to the right... does that mean I should be on the left side of the track? I don't understand what the rail is?
Thanks for the tips! Our district requires that all 4 wheels touch the track. Do you have any tips for the front wheels if they both need to touch? Do we angle them both in at the same angle?
+davelauc I would still angle the wheels so you have less surface area touching the track. I think rail riding still works. Just build the car and angle the front wheels inward (back outward), and whichever way the car veers, that wheel will be the rail rider.
derbydad for hire has them. www.shop.derbydad4hire.com/Pinewood-Derby-Aerodynamics_c18.htm I've also shopped at Maximum velocity, but I did not see fenders there.
The track we race on does not have the rail in the middle but rides in a lane with dividers in between lanes. Would I just reverse the front and back wheel camber?
I have a question. If there was no rail would it be better to have the front wheel in the center of the car? Or would it be better to have 2 front wheels that have angled axels (as well as the 2 back wheels with angles axels).
+reem930 There has to be a rail. 95% of the time there is a center rail. 5% of the time you'll have two outside rail to keep car in the lane. If you have an outside rail, I'd suggest you just build the car to roll straight. (OR... you could build front wheels out /---\ and rear wheels in. \---/ The still use rail riding concept with front wheel that pokes outward.) Good luck.
It's about 3/8 inch. My thinnest cars are now probably less than 1/4 inch thick. Depending on the scale, if there are no ridges to hold it in, I just rotate the car around until it sits still. Often times I flip the car upside down. I also might stand the car upright on it's end. (With all the weight in the rear, it will stand upright if the back is nice and flat and smooth.)
Thanks for all the great tips! One question that I don't see any answer here is how critical is it to get up to the 5 oz Max? My daughter and I are making a car for 4-H and even with added weight in the back we are about 4.7 ounce.
4.7 is a little low. I would add some more weight and get to 5.0 oz. Although my brother did win one year, and his car was only 4.85 oz. But at 4.7, I would add a little.
So for BSA races do you use the pre-cut axel grooves or do you drill your own so the appropriate angle can be set? Also, is there a style of weighting better than others? i.e. wire, putty, weights. Thanks. A Beginner.
I usually drill my own holes, but using pre set grooves is also fine. Most important part is polishing axles and smoothing out the wheels. Best weight is Tungsten. 150% more dense than lead. But I've used plenty of lead over the years. Then I'll add a little putty to make up the final extra necessary to get to 5 oz.
I've always cut the block so the overall width is smaller. Then I insert the wheels so they are just outside the center rail and make sure the car tracks straight. That eliminates the wobble. This year I was going to reduce the wheels so they are very thin. Your thoughts on this compared to rail riding? Thanks! Nice video.
+jeff0401 I prefer the rail riding method. With yours, it has the potential to be too many points of contact and have a lot more friction. Thinner wheels are much better if your rules allow it. Most rules don't allow you to make wheels thinner. If they are allowed, do it! But still rail ride.
Even the old wooden tracks should still have pretty smooth transitions between each section. Otherwise it would cause for more track jumping and busted wheels. So I would still go for it.
If you're using the precut slots, make sure the one in the rear is the slot closest to the back. Then put 1/3 weight in front of the rear axels and 2/3 in the back of the rear axel. This should prevent car from flipping a "wheely".
KK Potter If you have one big weight, just approximate 1/3 in front of the rear wheels and 2/3 behind it. Or if you have little pieces for your weight, just put about 1/3 in front of axle and 2/3 behind. As for nails... the easiest is just to insert them at an angle. Then you don't need any special tool to bend the nail. Rear pointed outward / - - - \ And front pointed inward \ - - - / good luck.
+Thane Walton This is our 10th PWD in the same pack and last one coming up here in about 1.5 weeks. When I was PWD chair I was always curious about his factor for our winning cars so I always pulled our a CC to see where the COG was for these cars...from memory, I recall it always being spot on about 1/2" in front of the rear axle.
hello I am wondering where to look to find a derby around my location... is it only with cub scouts? because my son and I would love to do this but not really the boy scout type... no offense is intended but we just want to make cars and race them against each other and hopefully get some kids that aren't interested in boy scouts to have something to do. THANK YOU so much
It's not boy scouts... It's cub scouts ages 7-10. Races are typically in beginning of the year... Jan - March. Check your local cubs. One national group I know of is npwdrl.com/ Touch base with them as they may know of some other races. npwdrl.com/ hosts a monthly race in Utah, but it's all the fanatics who are super experts.
I've recently uploaded 41 short videos of a pinewood car derby event we had on the evening of March 7, 2018 at the school our church has. It's held once at about this time a year. It's sponsored by Awana and Liberty Christian School. I don't think you have to be a church member or have a kid enrolled in Liberty Christian School to participate (check with them anyway in case I'm wrong about that). I don't have the phone number...It's at Palmetto Avenue Baptist Church, on the 26th block of Palmetto Avenue in Sanford, Florida. Liberty Christian School is on the same property.
What model is ur fastest one I’m trying to make that one but don’t exactly know how can u give me model or some measurements I’m trying too make one with my dad if u can please and thank u
great. keeping with the standard axle placement do you drill the slot? i dont' think we are allowed to use the extended axle. also, we want to make a thin flat car, which is the best tungsten weight to use? where do we buy it. maximumvelocity.com?
Yes... maximum velocity is where I purchase things. With thin flat car, you can use tungsten blocks if you carve the wood out nicely. Or some people use the cylinders. If you want to spend a little extra, just buy a pre cut kit... www.maximum-velocity.com/pinewood_derby_kits.htm
I don't agree with buying a pre-cut kit. If you go that route and win, you have taught your kid nothing. Build your best and do your best with your kid. Then if it wins or gets a top 3 finish, it feels much better and they are just as excited. Like I tell my son, it's good to win but sometimes you learn for the next time.
Thane - Thanks for sharing all this great science for building derby cars. I have two questions. Based on the rules I've read, there is nothing stated that you have to have the 4th wheel incorporated at all... Could my son construct one with just 3 wheels? Also (this is aging me) When I raced cars as a scout our wheels were (made of the same plastic) THIN as seen in this vintage video - --pinewood derby cool vintage cars-- -- Is it legal for us to cut the wheels down in thickness to reduce friction/drag/weight?
Sometime around 1980, the wheels went to the look we still have today. Every Pack/Derby has their own rules. My guess is that if you show up with only 3 wheels and a little guide on the 4th wheel, others might accuse you of cheating.
If the BSA wanted all the scouts to race on less than 4 wheels, they wouldn't include 4 wheels in the package. They would package the block with 3 wheels and 3 nails. If everyone adhered to the 4 wheel rule, we wouldn't have this "Supreme Court" case about it because everyone would be using the same ground rules and no one would have such a crazy advantage like that. The fatal flaw of the Pinewood Derby is that the General Rules that come in the box with the pinewood block aren't very specific when it comes to stuff like that, and they should amended ASAP. My cubmaster vehemently insists that all the cars in his derby are checked to make sure 4 wheels are flat on the ground, no ifs, ands or buts. They also check the axles and wheels for cutting, rubbing, sanding, grinding, routing, etc. and they check to make sure you're using graphite, not an oil or grease for lube. They also check for alignment (no camber adjustments) as well. Seems pretty reasonable to me considering my son is 6 years old and he loves to win (like most kids do), but I secretly designed our car not to be the fastest. So I don't intend to win, but at least he got to learn about sandpaper grit, using sanding tools, priming, painting, etc. Hopefully when he is a little older by then he can do the car himself 100% from start to finish, I think 6-10 is a little young to be using power saws, even with adult supervision.
Leonel Ventura Good thoughts. Rules are all over the place, so you definitely need to read what your pack says and stay fair. Some are very general, like the box, and other races are very specific. (4 wheels touching, no extended axles, no slanted wheels, no shaving or lightening wheels, etc.) I share all the tips I know to make our races more competitive. After 3 sons and 9 yrs of pinewoods, I went out with a whimper... I told my last son, "We are not going to win this year. Let's build a car, have some fun, and let someone else win." So that's how we ended... came in 3rd or 4th and let someone else win. (Back in 2013)
What are your thoughts on the treads, would you polish them? I spoke with someone else who suggested sanding them lightly in order to let graphite adhere to the surface better. Thanks.
Most rules say "only light sanding allowed on wheels," so I usually sand lightly so the surface is smooth, but you can still see little ridges on outside edge. If your rules don't say anything about the weight of wheels, then LIGHTER is better. SCIENCE: when the gate drops and your cars starts to roll, a heavier wheel has more mass to get turning. A lighter wheel with less mass turns more quickly and you can immediately have a 2-3 inch advantage.
Thane, really enjoyed this video. Our pack is gearing up for district races. Was wondering your thoughts on the lifted wheel theory. Some theorize as you have stated in your video that the advantage is due to less friction, others say the gain is due to having 1/4 less loss due to the rotational velocity conversion from kinetic. I can see this argument in that their reasoning is that whether the car travels on 3 wheels or 4 the total amount of friction remains the same, the car will just balance on whatever wheels it weighs upon. Also, I noticed your 1st and 2nd place cars are only .026 seconds apart. Could you explain the improvements in the first place versus second place car besides the fender additions, or is that it? Again, great vid, thanks.
Derek - you're in luck... I just addressed this question for another guy two weeks ago. The extra speed is all in the axles AND wheel bores. If you follow these steps closely, you can get under 3.0. My best cars come in at 2.999 and lower consistently. (When I did this video last year, it was for educational purposes, and I had not tuned up the cars prior.) TIPS: For wheel bores on wheels that are brand new: 1 - DD4H (Derby Dad 4 Hire) Wheel Bore Polish #1. You have to find a Q-tip of the proper diameter. Not plastic, but the ones that are made of compressed paper. They come in all kinds of OD's (outer diameter). If they slip into the hole tightly, it is bad. It must fit with a tiny bit of snugness, but not too much. Cut off the cotton ends. Lightly wet the shank. Apply #1 polish. Low speed drill. Turn for not more than 7 seconds. 10 seconds might be too much. Wash out with Dawn soap and water. Blow dry. 2 - Final waxing - One of the following. All are very good. a. Rejex (on line only) b. DD4H Red Rocket (I'm not sure, but I think this is Rejex with something else added) c. 3M synthetic wax. d. Black Diamond 3 - Application: a. Apply with a pipe cleaner or one of those "No Scratch Wheel Bore Applicators" from DD4H b. Blow out with compressed air c. Wait for 24 hours before polishing (very important) d. Polish with hand drill (not Dremmell) at medium speed. Be careful that the wire in the middle of the pipe cleaner does not scratch bore in any way. Be sure to polish front and back of bore, the part just outside of the bore, i.e. the part of the wheel that touches the nail head and the other side that touches the body. e. Blow out with compressed air. f. Wait 24 hours, then do steps a. through e. again, and then don't install on the car for another 24 hours. 4 - Nail preparation. a. Use axles that are between .090 and .092 in OD. True BSA nails are no good. Don't use them even if rules say you must. Buy "after market" nails that look exactly like BSA nails. If rules say BSA nails only, buy the ones that don't have a groove on the riding surface. b. Use a Dremmel. Mount the nail. Spin at 1700 RPM. c. Wet sand with 1000 for 10 seconds. repeat with 4 or 6000 grit. 10 seconds each. Be sure to include the underside of the axle head. d. Finish of the axle polish with DD4H "Cheetah Kiss Axle Polish" Also 10 to 15 seconds. Use a leather strap about 1/4" wide, and wet. e. Final polish, also with wet leather strap (but not the one used for d. above). Use Brasso for 20 seconds. f. Between each step, use clean cloth and alcohol. g. Final clean with Dawn soap, then spray nails with Jig-a-Loo". But the Jig must dry at least 2 hours before putting wheel on the axle. 5 - Final Lubricant. (oil is good for 100 runs; graphite is good only for 10-12 runs) a. OIL: use the DD4H oil, but only 2 drops per axle. The car must then be run down the equivalent of a track for at least 5 times, for the oil to spread and dry. b. I then carefully apply graphite using a cloth to the inside of the DFW (Dominant Front Wheel), where it touches the track (rail riding). But don't let graphite come anywhere close to the oiled bore. c. GRAPHITE: For races that insist on using graphite on the bore, use DD4H graphite, which is a mixture of graphite and molybdenum. 6 - Drift set-up: about 4 inches over 4 feet. or about 12 inches over 8 feet.
As for 3 wheels vs 4, it very well could partly be attributed to rotational velocity. But ALL tests with the same cars show 3 wheels beats 4 wheels hands down!
Yes... the front are angled in as such... \----/ and the rear are angled our like this... /----\ The best way is to have only 1 of the front wheels touching. And the wheel that touches should angle INTO the rail. The result is that there is only 1 point of contact against the rail the whole way providing a faster smoother ride. Make sense?
Question for you: Our track is plastic and doesn't have a center rail. Would you still ride on 3 wheels? and if so, I assume you'd make the front wheel straight as possible? Thanks! our race is in 10 days
+David Ingram I've seen the tracks with no center rail, and basically outside guard rails, but I have no experience with them. If I was building a car for such a track, I think I would play it safe and just try to roll it straight. But I would definitely still make it a 3 wheeler.
Do you have any tips for the truck model racers? I'm going to apply some of these tips with the truck (flat truck). But, just wondering if you have any tips with the 18 wheeler? Lift some wheels perhaps?... Any ideas you have would be appreciated.
+Steve Akil Do you have a website where I can see pictures and read up on the track and rules? If it's similar to the pinewood derby, use the tips above that I've outlined. make body as low profile as you can. The taller the front end of the truck, the more resistance you'll have. Make it hollow and light. Then put all the weight you're allowed in the rear, and run on as few wheels as possible.
Thane Walton wow, quick response... Thank you. I have a link to the rules here, greatertoronto.scouts.ca/sites/default/files/files/2016%20SB%20and%20WV%20Scout%20Truck%20Rally%20Rules.pdf and I'm going to verify them with the leaders because my son has some pretty interesting low truck designs that will look more like a "Batmobile" style car, then a truck and, we were thinking of following the same basic styles as the cars. We were going to attach the cab and the trailer so it's more like a single vehicle rather then a standard cab/trailer. We have about 3 weeks to build... I will send you some photos and video of the race, (April 6). Thanks again, and any other tips would be awesome.
+Steve Akil Interesting. Never seen the trucks before. I found this video online: ruclips.net/video/Xekm5eKTW3M/видео.html Do you need to have a removable back part? If so, I would make that part really light, and put all the weight in the REAR of the main truck. If they don't require all wheels to touch, then I would try 3 wheels and rail riding on main truck, and 2 wheels touching on rear trailer. If the wheels don't need to ride flat, then angle all of them that are touching. Looks like a fun race. Can't wait to hear how it turns out.
Yes. You want the weight right at 5 oz. Some scales measure in 10ths, and some in 100ths. Be right at, or close to 5.0. If you come in at 4.9 or 4.95, that should be fine. But any less, and I would add a little weight.
Great video! Please reply asap - got my first race this weekend! What are you using to weight the cars in the back and are you getting them as close to 5 oz as possible? My weighted car is now 3.5 oz, is that heavy enough or should I keep adding weight up to 4.99 oz? Thanks
Yes. ADD WEIGHT! It's not imperative that you get to 4.99, but 3.5 is way too light. You will lose momentum fast on the flat part of the track. My brother once won with his car at 4.85, but all the other winners I've seen are at 5.00. Anything under around 4.5 will be at a big disadvantage.
Sorry... I never received notice of this comment. We use tiny tungsten cubes which can be glued underneath if you drill out part of the body. Or buy a body from maximumvelocity. Yes... I drill my own axle holes.
You want to be at or near 5.0 oz. Depends on the scale as well. Old scales that only have 1 decimal will allow a car to actually be 5.04 oz and still register at 5.0. But coming in at 4.85 or 4.9 will still be okay. My brother built a car at 4.7 oz that was so fast, he didn't dare mess with it. Yes... he won the race that day.
Hi Thane, how long is your track, and what make/mfr is your track from? What length is recommended / approved by bsa, and what length to most packs go with? Thanks
I can't remember which one we bought... it's been about 5 years. But shop online for the best deal with metal tracks. I think our 4 lane was $1200 with timer, etc. We went with 40 foot length. I like 40, but 32 is also fine. Seems like about 50/50 between the 2 lengths when I go to different packs.
Thane Walton PS: maybe it was more like 1600 with the timer. I definitely recommend the aluminum track, not plastic. Our church bought it for use with about 10 packs, and I am designated guy in charge of it. :-) Try: www.besttrack.com/
I've done both ways. The easier cheaper option is to just insert at an angle. But you need to make sure to cut away the wood body so there is no rubbing.
+momaloves scarlett Yes! ADD weight to the back. Did you see tip #2. Flat body and WEIGHT IN BACK! You want the car to be right at 5 oz when you're done.
Really... you got one of those?!?! Ugh. So old school. Not only that, but cars are usually naturally 3 wheelers. It's actually sort of hard to make sure all 4 touch. Okay... off my soap box. Basically, make sure all 4 wheels touch, but still angle the wheels and use rail riding.
Option 1: safest deal: Just insert existing straight nails at an angle. I've done this on a lot of cars. Just make sure you carve away any wood so that the wheel doesn't rub. Option 2: more difficult and dangerous... you can use a vice grip to hold nail in place and tap it with a hammer. Problem is if you scratch the shaft, that could be bad news.
How quickly should the car go to the left or right. We finished the car and are trying to tune it up. It pulls to The right very quickly and a lot is that ok? All 4 of my wheels Have to touch
Hey great video by the way, my son car is hitting the 30 sec spin time . So im wondering should i angle the wheels then and will that make a huge difference?
Great work on shining the axle and using graphite. For that little bit extra, I definitely recommend you angle the nail so that you only ride on the edge of the wheel and have less friction.
Thane Walton Hey thanks for the advice, was nervous to adjust at the last minute so i just left them alone, He won 1st place in his group and took 1st overall, so we made it to district. Thinking about adjusting the wheels for that though.
jxl1974 Congrats! Hard to say about making changes. Sometimes if the car is running well, you can just leave it as is. If you decide to angle the wheels, simply pull out the wheels and nails, and try to push back in with a slight angle. If you're riding on 3 wheels, make sure the front wheel that touches is the one that angles INTO the track. Sometimes it takes a little playing with it and twisting the nails slightly for it to finally work.
Thane here on my son's computer: Best weights (most dense) are Tungsten. They're also the most expensive. You can find them online or at hobby stores. You can also use lead weights and melt them in. (BTW, body and wheels weigh around 2.5 oz, so weight makes up the rest.)
+MWong2005 No. I line it up so that the dominant wheel is away from the track. That way it can build up a little momentum as it rolls down the track before hitting the rail and rail riding.
+MWong2005 The one on the ground that veers into the rail. It's also fine to simply line up the car as you normally would with a little clearance with all the wheels. You just don't want any wheel hitting the rail immediately. That causes friction. The whole concept with rail riding is to keep only 1 point of friction with the rail, instead of 2 or 3, or bouncing back and forth.
This was fully built in my dad's basement. But I have purchased a lot of other stuff over the years. Mostly from Maximum Velocity. Here's a similar kit. I think he sells fenders too. www.maximum-velocity.com/8210.htm
Yes. If you can completely remove the extra wheel, do it! However, you need a fin or a guide just in case car turns the other way. cut and paste this link: www.maximum-velocity.com/4050.htm
Thane, is there anywhere I can run my boys car to try to fix problems I'm having? We would love to get better at this. My dad always helped me more like me helping my dad lol. Just would like to make R cars better! I was always running number #1 when I was in scouts. All I want for my boys is to run with the big dogs. I followed your tips but did something wrong I can't figure it out. We have a try stake pinewood derby in April in the east valley. #weneedhelp #thanks
Also... did you read my reply below to Derek Kano a week ago? Biggest focus needs to be on wheels and axles. Including the inner part of the wheel bore. See my LONG response below.
You're saying the dominant front wheel veers away from the track instead of into it? If you have a bent nail in the front, then you simply keep rotating it around until you get it to veer the other way into the track. If you have a straight nail in the front, then you might need to pull it out and try inserting it differently. Might be hard, so the other option is to switch the dominant wheel to the other side, and see if you can get it to work. The best solution is to use a bent nail in the front that you can rotate back and forth to adjust the wheel and veer.
I tried all this but the track was plastic. We lost today. Does rail riding not work on plastic? I have a son named Jonah maybe you could lend us your car for next year? I would pay shipping both ways. My Dad retired from making cars and I failed to carry on the family legacy. Jonah did win most original but I want to be fast though.
haha... where do you live? Plastic should not change things. Did you guys come close? What were your average track times? What were the times of the fastest cars?
The experts who spent all day tinkering with cars have determined their is a slight benefit to fenders. So if you're looking to improve time slightly, they help. (Like going from 3.005 to 2.995) But if your car is still in the 3.100 to 3.200 range, then the work needs to be on the axles more.
Our district races are on an old wood track, so I can't compare times. We've brought the fastest cars the past two years, but there's another family right with us.
Sounds like you do great work if you have the fastest cars. So if you're looking to get a little extra, the fins would help. Problem is, they are hard to build, so most guys will just buy them from a pinewood website.
Easy way (and how I do it): simply insert nails at an angle. Rear wheels angled out /----\ and front wheels angled in \----/ Hard way: you can buy a tool that will bend the nail about 15 degrees.
Thane Walton do you super glue the axels at those angles. what is your method if that's not how you do that? Great video, my son and I just got smoked yesterday at are first BS Tourny. I'm going to start early for next year, I'm addicted haha!
Glad to hear you're planning ahead. Did you try some tips for this recent race you did? As for glue, I only use it when the nail is loose. Then I'll just put a drop in near the pointy tip of the nail. But usually, there is enough firmness in the wood that I can push the nail in and take it our numerous times, and it is still firm in place. But if it gets loose, then I'll use a drop of glue.
@@thanethebrain My son got first place in his Lion Pack!!! Thanks again for your help. We were overall 4th place out of everyone. There were 3 cars that were faster than me out of 30 plus cars. My son got a trophy for winning his pack. I was very happy for him. First time I ever made a car. Next year we are going to kill it.
@@christophersboland Awesome! I love great stories!! Especially when you do your first race and think of all the little improvements you can make to do even better!! Good luck!
yes do exactly what he says I won a 3 times in my district race and been in it 4 times and that was in cub scouts now I am an eagle scout just helping family and friends win in pinewood derby
I'm pretty much on the same page but the ride on three wheels didn't seem to make a difference , I have one that all four ride and we never lose. The one we have with three wheels only didn't seem to help with speed at all.
+Jay Thomas Must have been other factors. You can build 10 cars and there will always be 1 that is fastest. Your 4 wheel car must be nice and smooth, but a well designed 3 wheeler will win.
All the cars shown in this video weigh 5 oz. That is the standard weight for pinewood derby. So the best advice is to follow my 5 tips in this video. 1. Work on wheels and axles. 2. Flat (thin) body and weight in back. 3. Ride on three wheels. 4. Angle the axles. 5. Rail riding. Good luck!
We followed these tips and had top three cars overall! Top car was 3.088... we placed weight about an half to one inch 8n front of back wheels. Do you put the weight all the way to the back? Wondering if we could get it even faster!
Thane here: 3.088 is pretty good. Glad it was enough to get you in the top. In a lot of packs, you need to be closer to 3.030 or 3.040 to be tops. And 2.999 is the elusive magical number for a race. I put weight about 50/50 around rear axle. Center of gravity should be slightly in front of rear axle. So if you go 50/50, then the wheels and wood upfront brings the center of gravity just ahead of rear axle.
Scott Walton I watched this after building it. We had a wedge type car. Next year going flat and with the tungsten cubes. Great video! I grew up in Mesa and was with a troop near MHS.
In the front, the thinnest I get is about 1/8 inch. In the rear, most are about 3/8 inch. Then I carve out the underneath side and usually use tungsten cubes. In this video, the gold car is thinnest up front but 1/2 inch in back. The other three are all very thin.
The track did not have a timing system. Our one car was slow. The other was fast but I think the wheel came loose after the 1st race. I really think rail riding is not the best method for plastic tracks. Have you ever tried bending all three axels so the wheels are outwards? I have a crazy idea that might work on plastic or traditional straight wheels. Jonah did win Most Original design but I want to win the race next year.
Rail riding still works on plastic. My dad used to have a plastic track that we tested our cars on. Then he upgraded to aluminum. Touch base with me next year and we'll help you out.
I use a dremel tool and carve out the bottom. Then glue in a bunch of little tungsten cubes. Any of the online pinewood derby sites sell the little cubes. Or maybe your local hobby lobby type store.
Most often, I simply use a spray can. Sometimes 2 colors. Like a solid blue, and then lightly spray gold on top to give a little bit of a sparkle. Then I like to use a spray varnish to give it a clear shine. That's how I did the gold and yellow cars. The blue and black ones were actually "colored vellum adhesive paper."
+Thane Walton Single mom here, second time at a pinewood derby race with the scouts at church, first time was a mayor fail, (there were tears) are all your tips within the rules? do I only need one bent axel? and it goes in the front, right? the weight should be in front and behind the back axel or just the I inch in front?thanks and sorry for all the questions
+francesca medina Hi Francesca. I've seen a lot of tears and heartache, so I love to help others. If last year was a total fail, I would suggest you try and keep it fairly simple. Bent axles are sometimes tough. But here is how I do them. Rear wheels, is simply put the nail in at an angle. so the wheels flair out at the bottom. /----\ Front wheels. Raise one wheel slightly, and the other wheel angle inward. |-----/ The front wheel that is angled in should ride into the rail. In this case, the right is angled, so you want the car to veer left. If that's all too much, just do the basics: 1. thin body. 2. weight in rear. 3. use sandpaper on your nails to smooth them out. finest sandpaper you can get. 4. LOTS of graphite BEFORE you put wheels into car body. Really load it up. Then insert wheels and make sure they spin well. Once you're racing, do NOT add more graphite. The graphite will get worked into the wheel and get faster with each race up until about race number 10 or 12.
Thanks so much, I bought the axles polish already since I don't have the experience to do so, also go tires that have been smooth also, was going to get the vent axel but it is not legal in this district, I will follow the rest of your suggestions, I will get you know how it goes.
Thane, We would like to thank you for your video, it helped us take First Place Weblos II and Fastest Overall. We are headed to district!!! We had to have all 4 wheels on the track though. This video nonetheless was very helpful!!!!
Jewekes Engineering is interested in testing our car to see if we can get down the hill any faster before District... we used exactly what came out of the box to get where we are currently....
Thank u I have Been winning pinewood derby for 4 years now and I think your vid is one of the best
Many thanks my friend! Keep up the great work and BIG smiles!
I watched all your videos and built our first car with my daughter based on your tricks and we won!!! First race ever and our car was a full second faster than the others, couldn't believe my eyes LOL. Thank You Thane for all your great tips, you made a kid really happy (and her parents) ;)
+Teto Emma Hooray Teto! Love to hear it. So glad the race worked out well for you guys. Made my day!
That's good I'm going to try this too 👍🏻
My daughter is a scout. Just found out she has a Derby in a week. Cramming for a competition. Tia is for the update. Great video. It’s exactly as I suspected it would be.
Used your tips and our car ran and average of 2.61 and came in second in our BSA Pinewood Derby Race. The car that beat us ran an average of 2.60. No one else came close to these times. 5 minutes before the race my son snapped a back axle off , so much for the hours fine tuning the position , found some duck tape and the rest is history. Thank for the tips!
Always a pain when things break.
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Thane, just wanted to tell you Thank You for posting your tips for pinewood derby racing. I followed all of your videos, and my girls won 1st place in two separate divisions! Being this was our first pinewood derby, the girls had a great time and both standing at the top with 1st place trophies. Thanks again, they're already planning for their next car.. ~Bill
Always glad to hear success stories. Great job to you and your girls!
Thanks. Basic stuff that is helpful to first timers however we’ve just learned that a large majority of participants are doing these things in 2018! Time to Level Up!
You'll be surprised how many bad cars are out there. Focus on wheels and axles for best results. Do all 5 tips and you'll be one of the top cars for sure!! Please subscribe. I need to get to 1,000 so I can keep making money from RUclips.
Your tips worked well. Thank you. This was our first derby. My son place 3rd in his division. His car was ugly and not very flat. But it was fast. Our weight was exactly 5oz. I super glued four stacks of pennies on the top over the back axle and about five pennies on the bottom of the car near the axle. It was a mess. Super glue even got on the wheels :( But I polished the axles and angled them and rode the rail. We beat so many well seasoned racers that had much better designed cars. The difference was riding the rail! Man, it really works great. If my car was flatter it would have been faster. Our average time was 3.2
Thanks again,
Kenny Rodriguez, and my son Alex
Pack 246 Tampa, Fl
Congrats. Imagine how much you could improve with a sleek design. Perhaps next year. And for weight, go to a hobby shop and buy Tungsten if you want the heaviest stuff, or at least the lead weights they offer. Pennies and coins are NOT very heavy. haha. Good work.
I wish you could see the videos I took. Look me up on Facebook under Kenny Rodriguez, are you on Facebook? I have the videos from the derby up there. I totally gave you the credit for my speed. I had to tell them not to adjust my wheels or axles because they thought I put them on wrong. I told them it was purposely riding on 3 wheels and the wheels were angled on purpose. I told them I was rail riding. They were like..Huh? After my first race they were impressed, time of 3.2 . The fastest car was 3.1. I was hanging tuff with the big boys. We were undefeated for the first 3 races.
It was our first time ever racing in a Pinewood Derby. My kids are all hooked. Great family time. We want to find some local people to do this with on regular basis. My kids and I can't wait. I need to invest in a power saw like a dremel tool. Cutting by hand was a nightmare. And your right, I can't wait to build a flatter car, with proper weights. And this time I won't get super glue on the tires :)
***** Awesome! It's always a rush for your first race, and you're like... is this gonna work or bomb! Then coming in first in that initial race is so cool! Too many Kenny's in facebook. Try to tag me under Thane Roland Walton. There are not so many of me.
Any other tips if bending the axles isn't an option? District only allows light filing and polishing
haha... what's the difference between light polishing and heavy polishing??? I would just use straight nails and polish them well. Nails and Wheels are a top priority for fast cars.
Would love to see a video on inserting axles. In previous comments you mention a tool that you use for drilling the rear holes. Would love to see it or read a description. You say that you bend one front axle... how? With the expensive tool from derbyworx or a homegrown method?
I've used the expensive tools, but I've also done it without... For the cheap DIY solution, you can simply angle the block and screw holes at an angle. The you'll want one nail bent which will allow you to adjust how much your car veers. To bend a nail DIY, just grip nail in middle with needle nose pliers. Then hammer the pointed edge to give it some bend. Make sure you've already polished nail, because once you bend it, you can't polish it. Also, make sure you don't damage the head when you bend it. (I'll see if I can do a new video on this topic and walk through the process.)
Awesome video. Thanks for sharing all of your derby wisdom. I love the passion.
Thane we followed 3 of your 5 tips last year and won 1st in our age group & 2nd overall. Trying to follow all 5 tips this year so we can get 1st overall. 2 questions though: 1) How do you get only 3 wheels to touch & not the 4th? and 2) How do you angel the wheels? Sorry if this is obvious...just a boy mom here trying to figure this out!
Well done last year!! Good luck this time around. Q1: ON FRONT WHEEL... drill a new hold, or make groove deeper, so when you put in nail, the wheel is off the ground and doesn't touch. With all your weight in the rear, the two back wheels touch and only 1 in front. Q2: Without a tool, the easiest is just to insert nails at an angle. rear outward /----\ and the front inward \---- / (but one in front raised). The one that touches in front you want to roll INTO the rail. BUT BEWARD... when you angle the nails, you need to make sure the wheels don't rub on the wood. You might need to cut out a LOT of wood so nothing rubs. (If you look closely at some of my videos, you can see how I've carved a lot of wood away from the wheel area.)
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Thanks again Thane! Your tips helped my son win his 2nd town-wide pinewood derby today!
+GregAlb1 Awesome. Love to hear it!
A+ attention to details, like beveling the inside surface of the nail head which I would have overlooked. Thanks!
good luck!
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Your video is awesome, brilliant, informative and worth much more than it cost( ! ). Thank You... you are a true craftsman.
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Thank you so much for sharing your insights into building a great Pinewood Derby car!
hope the races went well!
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This is one of the best video's (and I have watched a lot) that I have seen so far. My son's race is this weekend. I plan on doing all of the tips you have shown (some of your tips I had already incorporated into the car before I watched this). I will let you know how we do. Thank you for taking the time to post this and the video was not that long ;-)
Good luck! Lube those wheels well, and then don't touch them. You'll find with graphite that the car gets faster with each race, and peaks around race 10. So when guys add more graphite during the races, they are actually hurting their car.
Thane Walton We came in 4th....not bad for a couple of first timers, LOL. I had a little trouble getting the wheels to mount like I wanted to, but we learned this go around and will be ready for next year. Thanks again for the help!
bouncingsoul777 Awesome. Good luck next time. If you start from the beginning with my tips in mind, you should do great. Smooth and lubed up axles are top priority.
We too have become pinewood fanatics. Fastest of the pack 4 years running and just took second at our first visit to districts this year. We've never done rail riders because our pack track does not have a center rail and as such a curving rail rider would be a disadvantage. But the district track did have a center rail and we built a second car specifically for that track and as I stated above, we didn't do bad for our first visit. My question is about the toeing of the front dominant wheel. Both back wheels are toed out to ride on the nail head and I understand the principle of giving up a little friction for stability and it works. But when it comes to the front dominant wheel, I've seen two schools of thought. One having the wheel that toes out like the rear wheels and others that toe in like in your instructional videos. What is the advantage of doing it your way? My only guess is that by toeing the wheel in, it creates a single contact point against the wheel thus creating less friction. Toeing out can potentially cause two points of contact, one front and back of the wheel, and thus causing more friction with the rail. Is this a correct assumption of the toe in advantage?
You're exactly right... toeing in creates just a single point of contact, and also make sure the rear wheels don't get anywhere near the rail.
Thane Walton Thank you. I doubled the gap on the rear wheels so there was no problem there. But I think that toeing out was the difference between 1st and 2nd. We were behind by .02 seconds. It was our first attempt at rail-riding and I definitely won't forget it.
How many dads are watching this two hours before their son’s pinewood derby?
Hopefully they watch it 2 DAYS before... then they can throw something together quickly.
So... I just made a new video... "The One Hour Pinewood Derby Car."
This mom is
This cub scout mom is lol, but we have a week.
I am!
Great vid. Thank you for making this. How much do those tracks cost?
the nice metal ones used to be 1250 10 yrs ago... probably double now???
Thank you for the tips. I followed your advice last year and my boys came in 1st/2nd place. My question is we race on a 20 yr old wooden track. Yesterday one of our cars did well during practice but our other car had bad wobble. It actually came off the track it wobbled so bad. We have the weight about 1 inch in front rear axle. We had it 3 wheeling that I think may not be good for the wooden track. Back up a moment. I tested both cars at home and the one car in question rolled super straight. We have another 5 days before the real race.
I was hoping for some help on the best camber and toe for wooden tracks. Thank you
Boy, that's a tough one. I haven't raced on wooden tracks in years, and when I did, they were very nicely maintained. The fact that it was rolling well at home (I'm guessing you have a track), and then poorly on the wooden track probably means the track is in bad shape. My only suggestion is to run more tests on the wooden track, play with the veer more or less, and find a spot that it runs nice and consistent.
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8:18 ... far from a standard cub scout car :) We never polished the axles to a mirror finish. We stop at about 1000 wet/dry, then with paper towel, isopropyl alcohol and graphite burnish/polish with the graphite...the non-mirror finish provides enough grab to build a better film of graphite on the axel. We do reduce the overall nail head diameter by a smidgen and ensure the stamp spline is removed.
Well done.
Did a google search for: how to build a pinewood derby car for track with no center rail
Found this: www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/car-design-for-a-track-with-no-center-rail-7195721
Really great video! Question…How far into the body of the car do you place your axle/nail…ie do you use a spacer guide to insure uniformity?? Thank you
Hi Thane- I've enjoyed your videos the last couple years. I've noticed that a lot of fast cars are just very flat rectangular cars. The last couple years we have cut most of that wood out between the axles (front to back) and just made a very skinny body that connects regular-width axles, with the concentration then of as much weight as possible at the back in one place. I would think that is the most advantageous, but curious about your thoughts versus the flat slab.
When it comes to the minute little details that make one car faster than another, the cars at the very top need to focus on aerodynamics. So the issue with a skinny body is that it opens you up to more wind resistance drag. Most of the experts that have tested multiple body types find that thin flat with fenders is the absolute best. But here's the other secret they use... the body is often almost all hollowed out, and then they use vellum paper on top and bottom of body. This way the body is flat, yet super light. That said, far and away where all the races are won is in the expertise of wheel and axle preparation. If you're not getting under 3.000 seconds on full length track, then you probably need more focus on wheels and axles. Have fun racing!
On your flat slab cars, are you using a tungsten disc plus other weights? If you drill all the way through how are you finishing the top so the weights aren't visible?
I've rarely used the big disk. On this video, right at the start you can see it on one car in my box. Now we just use tungsten cubes. Most bodies start like this one I found... www.derbydad4hire.com/Plug-N-Play-VIPER-PreDrilled-Rail-Runner-Pinewood-Derby-Block-BL-PNPV.htm If you look at pics, you can see it is carved out underneath, and you can glue in the weights you need.
Some other vids to look at. My dad is the real fanatic. Here you see a ton of bodies... Most are thin and flat if they are good... ruclips.net/video/iZ2tGRDJYAM/видео.html&t
One more good short vid. Look closely at this car. It is all carved out. For the weights, he glued 1/64th inch balsa on back to secure weights. Then when it was done, he put velllum tape on body for best aerodynamics. ruclips.net/video/iZ2tGRDJYAM/видео.html&t
Could you do a video on hire your cars are weighted? I see these super thin cars and wonder how to add enough weight to get them to 5oz and keep them so thin.
I just posted a new video with some weight examples. Check it out for full discussion. Summary: design thin car, then use dremel tool to carve out some space in rear, then use TUNGSTEN cubes, and glue in as many as you need. then add epoxy filler and sand after it has hardened.
For the rail riders, you would want the contact wheel against the rail and not the raised wheel correct? Riding the rail against the raised wheel defeats the purpose of raising it. I don't see many videos explaining this. I've used your video last year to help me and my son with last years tournament. We finished 2nd place. Hope to do better this year. Thanks.
+scobod Glad to hear last year went well. Yes. The wheel touching the ground is the one you want veering into the rail. Work a lot on the nails and wheels. Then load them up with graphite. Once the races start, don't add any graphite. The car should get a little faster each race until about the 10th one when it peaks out.
Thane, one problem with rail riding is what if the track that you have to run on is not good. Where the seams are not perfect and rails are miss aligned so the rail sticks out on the down hill side of the seam. Which would cause significant issues with the wheel and slow the car down.
I disagree... if the track is poor quality, all the more reason to rail ride. That way you'll hug the rail throughout all the bumps and nicks. Without the rail riding, your car could bump and bounce all over. With the rail riding, you'll slide back against the rail after any little bumps. Trust me. Follow all the other tips. Especially polished axles.
Have you tried rounding the wheel surface to reduce friction? Then leave the rear axles straight?
That would work as well. The key is just a small part of wheel touching. And if you're "riding the rail," you want to make sure the back wheels don't touch. That's one advantage of angling the wheels away to make sure they don't hit the rail.
Hello Thane, I was wondering how much space should be left between the wheel and the car. I would imagine if the wheels are too far away that leaves more wiggle room and would slow the car down. I read somewhere that the space should be about 2 business cards width away . Not sure how true that is... Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated. Thank u.
two business cards is probably good. Just not to tight and not too loose. I think officially I've read 1/32 inch. Little thicker than a credit card.
I have used the two business card trick - I cut a square notch in the business cards so I could insert the cards over the axel between the car and the body of the car to get the proper distance...
Thanks! I definitely will but I think I should skip trying rail riding next year. Everyone else built straight riding cars. I think I have a better shot trying to go straight next year.
If done correctly, rail riding shaves time off ANY type of track. Trust me, we've tested them all. The only exception is the OLD wood tracks that don't have a center guide rail. Instead they have two outer guide rails. But those old tracks are very rare.
On the black car, I noticed you did something special to the lifted wheel. It appears to be glued against the body, while the other cars have the lifted wheel loose. What was the thought in doing this and did this help the black car? Additionally, the black car's lifted wheel appears to have the inside filled in with something white'ish in color. Again, what was the thought behind it, and did it help the black car?
I took a clear piece of plastic and glued it to the inside of the raised wheel. Goal was to reduce air drag on the useless wheel. The experts say this helps, but the help is so minimal it is not worth the effort, unless you're racing in a super competitive league and have the chance to test your car and experiment with different options.
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Thank you for the tips! You were a huge help in figuring out how to do this!
Just saw this comment. Hope the race went well!
Weight works a little better when. Its 1 inch in front of rear wheels
You want the "center of gravity" about 0.5 - 1.0 inches in front of rear wheel. Because there is more length and thus typically more weight toward the front, in order to get the center of gravity in the right place, most weight will need to be pretty close to the rear axle.
Thane Walton u got that right
Hi Thane. Gr8 videos! Do you find it helps to have grooved axels if you are packing them with graphite & alcohol (pre-mix) or just smooth axles when rail riding? Many Thx!! Keep up the videos.
I have not run my own tests with grooved axles, but I hear the grooved are slightly better. I would think it has more to do with having less friction than the fact that there is a lube reservoir.
Thane Walton Thank u
Our rules state that the full width of at least three wheels must be touching the ground, so I can't angle the back wheels, is it worth still angling the front right if the other three can't be angled?
Wow! Tough rules. Full width of wheel touching. I'm guessing the rules said you can't make the wheels any thinner, right. Surely not. If I were building, I would still lift one of the front wheels. Doesn't matter how you do it, but raise one up. I would still try rail riding with a slight veer. The front wheel that touches is the one you want rolling into the center track.
@@thanethebrain Thanks for the reply. You're correct that we can't really mess with removing tread, we can polish it, but that's about all. That is what I was thinking, lift the front left, and the veering the front right a little so it heads towards the rail but still full width touching. Thanks!
I was looking into the fins... it says the plastic ones weigh 3.1 grams... that's seems like a lot of weight and takes away from placing thed weight in the back... any thoughts? TIA
Early in the infancy of fenders, people tried 4 vs 2 (rear only) vs none. It took some time for the data to sort out, but now the top cars use fenders on all 4 wheels.
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Keep the videos coming. What is the center of gravity you're using for your cars on a metal track, 3/4 inch?
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Thane, This is my second year doing this with me 8 year old Scout. Last year we bent the axels with a tool, this year I drilled canted holes with a different tool. I am a little concerned about the wheels touching the car with the new method. Do you have an opinion or experience with canting the axels? Best angle 2.5? How far to keep wheels from car? Cant axle with angled drilling or with bent axle? Thank you so much Thane
Just saw your note... If you look closely at my cars, you'll see I used a dremel tool to really carve out a LOT of wood so that there was no rubbing. Especially in the rear since the wheels are canted so that top is bumping into the body. Carve a lot of wood away.
Where can I get that track? That's a nice setup.
Just search "Pinewood Derby track." They come in single lane, double, triple, quad, and 6 lanes! This four lane setup with timer was about $1500 a few years ago.
Thanks Thane, I am very good wood worker and mechanicly inclined. Are the rules for the derby cars a national rule, pack, age etc
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Do you think it will matter if the left front tire is not touching instead of the right? It is pulling to the right instead...
Doesn't matter which wheel touches. I tell guys to keep testing both sides until you find which one rides into the rail. So if the left tire touches, you want the car turning right.
Thane Walton Thank you Thane! Yes, it does pull to the right... does that mean I should be on the left side of the track? I don't understand what the rail is?
Thanks for the tips! Our district requires that all 4 wheels touch the track. Do you have any tips for the front wheels if they both need to touch? Do we angle them both in at the same angle?
+davelauc I would still angle the wheels so you have less surface area touching the track. I think rail riding still works. Just build the car and angle the front wheels inward (back outward), and whichever way the car veers, that wheel will be the rail rider.
His car placed 1st in the Pack. Thank you!!!
+davelauc Love to hear it! Kudos to you for the hard work you must have put in.
Where can you purchase the fins you have on the black car? I would like to get some of those for my son's next car.
derbydad for hire has them. www.shop.derbydad4hire.com/Pinewood-Derby-Aerodynamics_c18.htm I've also shopped at Maximum velocity, but I did not see fenders there.
The track we race on does not have the rail in the middle but rides in a lane with dividers in between lanes. Would I just reverse the front and back wheel camber?
Thane here on my son's computer: I've seen those side rails, but never raced on them. I think reversing would work. I'd give it a try.
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I have a question. If there was no rail would it be better to have the front wheel in the center of the car? Or would it be better to have 2 front wheels that have angled axels (as well as the 2 back wheels with angles axels).
+reem930 There has to be a rail. 95% of the time there is a center rail. 5% of the time you'll have two outside rail to keep car in the lane. If you have an outside rail, I'd suggest you just build the car to roll straight. (OR... you could build front wheels out /---\ and rear wheels in. \---/ The still use rail riding concept with front wheel that pokes outward.) Good luck.
Thane Walton
Thank you so much for the reply!! What you do is really awesome and cool.
+reem930 Thanks, my friend. Good luck out there!
With the skinny yellow car how thick is the back of that car and how do you weight it when it is skinny?
It's about 3/8 inch. My thinnest cars are now probably less than 1/4 inch thick. Depending on the scale, if there are no ridges to hold it in, I just rotate the car around until it sits still. Often times I flip the car upside down. I also might stand the car upright on it's end. (With all the weight in the rear, it will stand upright if the back is nice and flat and smooth.)
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Thanks for all the great tips! One question that I don't see any answer here is how critical is it to get up to the 5 oz Max? My daughter and I are making a car for 4-H and even with added weight in the back we are about 4.7 ounce.
4.7 is a little low. I would add some more weight and get to 5.0 oz. Although my brother did win one year, and his car was only 4.85 oz. But at 4.7, I would add a little.
The closer to 5 oz., the better. More kinetic energy to push the car down the slanted part of the track.
So for BSA races do you use the pre-cut axel grooves or do you drill your own so the appropriate angle can be set? Also, is there a style of weighting better than others? i.e. wire, putty, weights. Thanks.
A Beginner.
I usually drill my own holes, but using pre set grooves is also fine. Most important part is polishing axles and smoothing out the wheels. Best weight is Tungsten. 150% more dense than lead. But I've used plenty of lead over the years. Then I'll add a little putty to make up the final extra necessary to get to 5 oz.
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I've always cut the block so the overall width is smaller. Then I insert the wheels so they are just outside the center rail and make sure the car tracks straight. That eliminates the wobble. This year I was going to reduce the wheels so they are very thin. Your thoughts on this compared to rail riding? Thanks! Nice video.
+jeff0401 I prefer the rail riding method. With yours, it has the potential to be too many points of contact and have a lot more friction. Thinner wheels are much better if your rules allow it. Most rules don't allow you to make wheels thinner. If they are allowed, do it! But still rail ride.
Our Pack still uses an old rickety wooden track that is put together in sections. Would you still suggest railriding?
Even the old wooden tracks should still have pretty smooth transitions between each section. Otherwise it would cause for more track jumping and busted wheels. So I would still go for it.
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Tips for putting the weight in the back? Last time I put it in the back my car kept flipping over.
If you're using the precut slots, make sure the one in the rear is the slot closest to the back. Then put 1/3 weight in front of the rear axels and 2/3 in the back of the rear axel. This should prevent car from flipping a "wheely".
KK Potter If you have one big weight, just approximate 1/3 in front of the rear wheels and 2/3 behind it. Or if you have little pieces for your weight, just put about 1/3 in front of axle and 2/3 behind. As for nails... the easiest is just to insert them at an angle. Then you don't need any special tool to bend the nail. Rear pointed outward / - - - \ And front pointed inward \ - - - / good luck.
curious where you try to get your center of balance on your cars.
The body is as thin and light as possible. The weight is all in the rear. So the center of gravity is about exactly on the rear axle.
+Thane Walton This is our 10th PWD in the same pack and last one coming up here in about 1.5 weeks. When I was PWD chair I was always curious about his factor for our winning cars so I always pulled our a CC to see where the COG was for these cars...from memory, I recall it always being spot on about 1/2" in front of the rear axle.
hello I am wondering where to look to find a derby around my location... is it only with cub scouts? because my son and I would love to do this but not really the boy scout type... no offense is intended but we just want to make cars and race them against each other and hopefully get some kids that aren't interested in boy scouts to have something to do. THANK YOU so much
It's not boy scouts... It's cub scouts ages 7-10. Races are typically in beginning of the year... Jan - March. Check your local cubs. One national group I know of is npwdrl.com/ Touch base with them as they may know of some other races. npwdrl.com/ hosts a monthly race in Utah, but it's all the fanatics who are super experts.
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Girl Scouts are doing the pinewood derby car too.
Best 10 pinewood derby cars
I've recently uploaded 41 short videos of a pinewood car derby event we had on the evening of March 7, 2018 at the school our church has. It's held once at about this time a year.
It's sponsored by Awana and Liberty Christian School. I don't think you have to be a church member or have a kid enrolled in Liberty Christian School to participate (check with them anyway in case I'm wrong about that).
I don't have the phone number...It's at Palmetto Avenue Baptist Church, on the 26th block of Palmetto Avenue in Sanford, Florida. Liberty Christian School is on the same property.
What model is ur fastest one I’m trying to make that one but don’t exactly know how can u give me model or some measurements I’m trying too make one with my dad if u can please and thank u
Just follow tips from the video... make body as thin as possible, weight in rear. Biggest tip is the polish the nails really well!!
Thanks so much for the tips! Do you drill axle holes or use the slotted?
On almost all my cars, I use a tool and drill my own holes.
great. keeping with the standard axle placement do you drill the slot? i dont' think we are allowed to use the extended axle. also, we want to make a thin flat car, which is the best tungsten weight to use? where do we buy it. maximumvelocity.com?
Yes... maximum velocity is where I purchase things. With thin flat car, you can use tungsten blocks if you carve the wood out nicely. Or some people use the cylinders. If you want to spend a little extra, just buy a pre cut kit... www.maximum-velocity.com/pinewood_derby_kits.htm
I don't agree with buying a pre-cut kit. If you go that route and win, you have taught your kid nothing. Build your best and do your best with your kid. Then if it wins or gets a top 3 finish, it feels much better and they are just as excited. Like I tell my son, it's good to win but sometimes you learn for the next time.
thanks so much. i will look for the tungsten blocks.
Thane - Thanks for sharing all this great science for building derby cars. I have two questions. Based on the rules I've read, there is nothing stated that you have to have the 4th wheel incorporated at all... Could my son construct one with just 3 wheels? Also (this is aging me) When I raced cars as a scout our wheels were (made of the same plastic) THIN as seen in this vintage video - --pinewood derby cool vintage cars-- -- Is it legal for us to cut the wheels down in thickness to reduce friction/drag/weight?
Sometime around 1980, the wheels went to the look we still have today. Every Pack/Derby has their own rules. My guess is that if you show up with only 3 wheels and a little guide on the 4th wheel, others might accuse you of cheating.
If the BSA wanted all the scouts to race on less than 4 wheels, they wouldn't include 4 wheels in the package. They would package the block with 3 wheels and 3 nails. If everyone adhered to the 4 wheel rule, we wouldn't have this "Supreme Court" case about it because everyone would be using the same ground rules and no one would have such a crazy advantage like that. The fatal flaw of the Pinewood Derby is that the General Rules that come in the box with the pinewood block aren't very specific when it comes to stuff like that, and they should amended ASAP. My cubmaster vehemently insists that all the cars in his derby are checked to make sure 4 wheels are flat on the ground, no ifs, ands or buts. They also check the axles and wheels for cutting, rubbing, sanding, grinding, routing, etc. and they check to make sure you're using graphite, not an oil or grease for lube. They also check for alignment (no camber adjustments) as well. Seems pretty reasonable to me considering my son is 6 years old and he loves to win (like most kids do), but I secretly designed our car not to be the fastest. So I don't intend to win, but at least he got to learn about sandpaper grit, using sanding tools, priming, painting, etc. Hopefully when he is a little older by then he can do the car himself 100% from start to finish, I think 6-10 is a little young to be using power saws, even with adult supervision.
Leonel Ventura Good thoughts. Rules are all over the place, so you definitely need to read what your pack says and stay fair. Some are very general, like the box, and other races are very specific. (4 wheels touching, no extended axles, no slanted wheels, no shaving or lightening wheels, etc.) I share all the tips I know to make our races more competitive. After 3 sons and 9 yrs of pinewoods, I went out with a whimper... I told my last son, "We are not going to win this year. Let's build a car, have some fun, and let someone else win." So that's how we ended... came in 3rd or 4th and let someone else win. (Back in 2013)
What are your thoughts on the treads, would you polish them? I spoke with someone else who suggested sanding them lightly in order to let graphite adhere to the surface better. Thanks.
Most rules say "only light sanding allowed on wheels," so I usually sand lightly so the surface is smooth, but you can still see little ridges on outside edge. If your rules don't say anything about the weight of wheels, then LIGHTER is better. SCIENCE: when the gate drops and your cars starts to roll, a heavier wheel has more mass to get turning. A lighter wheel with less mass turns more quickly and you can immediately have a 2-3 inch advantage.
Thane, really enjoyed this video. Our pack is gearing up for district races. Was wondering your thoughts on the lifted wheel theory. Some theorize as you have stated in your video that the advantage is due to less friction, others say the gain is due to having 1/4 less loss due to the rotational velocity conversion from kinetic. I can see this argument in that their reasoning is that whether the car travels on 3 wheels or 4 the total amount of friction remains the same, the car will just balance on whatever wheels it weighs upon.
Also, I noticed your 1st and 2nd place cars are only .026 seconds apart. Could you explain the improvements in the first place versus second place car besides the fender additions, or is that it?
Again, great vid, thanks.
Derek - you're in luck... I just addressed this question for another guy two weeks ago. The extra speed is all in the axles AND wheel bores. If you follow these steps closely, you can get under 3.0. My best cars come in at 2.999 and lower consistently. (When I did this video last year, it was for educational purposes, and I had not tuned up the cars prior.) TIPS:
For wheel bores on wheels that are brand new:
1 - DD4H (Derby Dad 4 Hire) Wheel Bore Polish #1. You have to find a Q-tip of the proper diameter. Not plastic, but the ones that are made of compressed paper. They come in all kinds of OD's (outer diameter). If they slip into the hole tightly, it is bad. It must fit with a tiny bit of snugness, but not too much. Cut off the cotton ends. Lightly wet the shank. Apply #1 polish. Low speed drill. Turn for not more than 7 seconds. 10 seconds might be too much. Wash out with Dawn soap and water. Blow dry.
2 - Final waxing - One of the following. All are very good.
a. Rejex (on line only)
b. DD4H Red Rocket (I'm not sure, but I think this is Rejex with something else added)
c. 3M synthetic wax.
d. Black Diamond
3 - Application:
a. Apply with a pipe cleaner or one of those "No Scratch Wheel Bore Applicators" from DD4H
b. Blow out with compressed air
c. Wait for 24 hours before polishing (very important)
d. Polish with hand drill (not Dremmell) at medium speed. Be careful that the wire in the middle of the pipe cleaner does not scratch bore in any way. Be sure to polish front and back of bore, the part just outside of the bore, i.e. the part of the wheel that touches the nail head and the other side that touches the body.
e. Blow out with compressed air.
f. Wait 24 hours, then do steps a. through e. again, and then don't install on the car for another 24 hours.
4 - Nail preparation.
a. Use axles that are between .090 and .092 in OD. True BSA nails are no good. Don't use them even if rules say you must. Buy "after market" nails that look exactly like BSA nails. If rules say BSA nails only, buy the ones that don't have a groove on the riding surface.
b. Use a Dremmel. Mount the nail. Spin at 1700 RPM.
c. Wet sand with 1000 for 10 seconds. repeat with 4 or 6000 grit. 10 seconds each. Be sure to include the underside of the axle head.
d. Finish of the axle polish with DD4H "Cheetah Kiss Axle Polish" Also 10 to 15 seconds. Use a leather strap about 1/4" wide, and wet.
e. Final polish, also with wet leather strap (but not the one used for d. above). Use Brasso for 20 seconds.
f. Between each step, use clean cloth and alcohol.
g. Final clean with Dawn soap, then spray nails with Jig-a-Loo". But the Jig must dry at least 2 hours before putting wheel on the axle.
5 - Final Lubricant. (oil is good for 100 runs; graphite is good only for 10-12 runs)
a. OIL: use the DD4H oil, but only 2 drops per axle. The car must then be run down the equivalent of a track for at least 5 times, for the oil to spread and dry.
b. I then carefully apply graphite using a cloth to the inside of the DFW (Dominant Front Wheel), where it touches the track (rail riding). But don't let graphite come anywhere close to the oiled bore.
c. GRAPHITE: For races that insist on using graphite on the bore, use DD4H graphite, which is a mixture of graphite and molybdenum.
6 - Drift set-up:
about 4 inches over 4 feet. or about 12 inches over 8 feet.
As for 3 wheels vs 4, it very well could partly be attributed to rotational velocity. But ALL tests with the same cars show 3 wheels beats 4 wheels hands down!
Great vid just to under stand the front of the front wheel is angles in the front of the rear is angled out
Yes... the front are angled in as such... \----/ and the rear are angled our like this... /----\ The best way is to have only 1 of the front wheels touching. And the wheel that touches should angle INTO the rail. The result is that there is only 1 point of contact against the rail the whole way providing a faster smoother ride. Make sense?
Question for you: Our track is plastic and doesn't have a center rail. Would you still ride on 3 wheels? and if so, I assume you'd make the front wheel straight as possible? Thanks! our race is in 10 days
+David Ingram I've seen the tracks with no center rail, and basically outside guard rails, but I have no experience with them. If I was building a car for such a track, I think I would play it safe and just try to roll it straight. But I would definitely still make it a 3 wheeler.
That was me logged in under my son.
Do you have any tips for the truck model racers? I'm going to apply some of these tips with the truck (flat truck). But, just wondering if you have any tips with the 18 wheeler? Lift some wheels perhaps?... Any ideas you have would be appreciated.
+Steve Akil Do you have a website where I can see pictures and read up on the track and rules? If it's similar to the pinewood derby, use the tips above that I've outlined. make body as low profile as you can. The taller the front end of the truck, the more resistance you'll have. Make it hollow and light. Then put all the weight you're allowed in the rear, and run on as few wheels as possible.
Thane Walton wow, quick response... Thank you. I have a link to the rules here, greatertoronto.scouts.ca/sites/default/files/files/2016%20SB%20and%20WV%20Scout%20Truck%20Rally%20Rules.pdf and I'm going to verify them with the leaders because my son has some pretty interesting low truck designs that will look more like a "Batmobile" style car, then a truck and, we were thinking of following the same basic styles as the cars. We were going to attach the cab and the trailer so it's more like a single vehicle rather then a standard cab/trailer. We have about 3 weeks to build... I will send you some photos and video of the race, (April 6). Thanks again, and any other tips would be awesome.
+Steve Akil Interesting. Never seen the trucks before. I found this video online: ruclips.net/video/Xekm5eKTW3M/видео.html Do you need to have a removable back part? If so, I would make that part really light, and put all the weight in the REAR of the main truck. If they don't require all wheels to touch, then I would try 3 wheels and rail riding on main truck, and 2 wheels touching on rear trailer. If the wheels don't need to ride flat, then angle all of them that are touching. Looks like a fun race. Can't wait to hear how it turns out.
Thank you for sharing. This helps as this is my, er I mean my kiddo's, first time!
Is it better to have the car heavier and as close to the max weight or less?
Yes. You want the weight right at 5 oz. Some scales measure in 10ths, and some in 100ths. Be right at, or close to 5.0. If you come in at 4.9 or 4.95, that should be fine. But any less, and I would add a little weight.
Great video! Please reply asap - got my first race this weekend! What are you using to weight the cars in the back and are you getting them as close to 5 oz as possible? My weighted car is now 3.5 oz, is that heavy enough or should I keep adding weight up to 4.99 oz? Thanks
Yes. ADD WEIGHT! It's not imperative that you get to 4.99, but 3.5 is way too light. You will lose momentum fast on the flat part of the track. My brother once won with his car at 4.85, but all the other winners I've seen are at 5.00. Anything under around 4.5 will be at a big disadvantage.
Thane Walton thanks!!
How did you add weights to your cars considering there so thin? Also did you drill your own holes for the axles?
Sorry... I never received notice of this comment. We use tiny tungsten cubes which can be glued underneath if you drill out part of the body. Or buy a body from maximumvelocity. Yes... I drill my own axle holes.
What is the optimal weight for a pinewood derby car?
You want to be at or near 5.0 oz. Depends on the scale as well. Old scales that only have 1 decimal will allow a car to actually be 5.04 oz and still register at 5.0. But coming in at 4.85 or 4.9 will still be okay. My brother built a car at 4.7 oz that was so fast, he didn't dare mess with it. Yes... he won the race that day.
Hi Thane, how long is your track, and what make/mfr is your track from? What length is recommended / approved by bsa, and what length to most packs go with? Thanks
I can't remember which one we bought... it's been about 5 years. But shop online for the best deal with metal tracks. I think our 4 lane was $1200 with timer, etc. We went with 40 foot length. I like 40, but 32 is also fine. Seems like about 50/50 between the 2 lengths when I go to different packs.
Thane Walton PS: maybe it was more like 1600 with the timer. I definitely recommend the aluminum track, not plastic. Our church bought it for use with about 10 packs, and I am designated guy in charge of it. :-) Try: www.besttrack.com/
Hi Thane. This is probably a repeat question. Did you bend the axles or just put them into the car at a slight angle? Thanks in advance.
I've done both ways. The easier cheaper option is to just insert at an angle. But you need to make sure to cut away the wood body so there is no rubbing.
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You do not add weight to the back? (Obviously) but everyone else does...so is it faster with less weight?
+momaloves scarlett Yes! ADD weight to the back. Did you see tip #2. Flat body and WEIGHT IN BACK! You want the car to be right at 5 oz when you're done.
OK. Thank you!
Good luck Scarlett. As long as you put a little energy and effort in, you should have a competitive car. Shine the nails and use lots of graphite.
What about packs that require all 4 wheels touching?
Really... you got one of those?!?! Ugh. So old school. Not only that, but cars are usually naturally 3 wheelers. It's actually sort of hard to make sure all 4 touch. Okay... off my soap box. Basically, make sure all 4 wheels touch, but still angle the wheels and use rail riding.
Thane Walton appreciate the advice. I don't have a axle bending machine any suggestions on how to do that with out the machine? Thank you again
Option 1: safest deal: Just insert existing straight nails at an angle. I've done this on a lot of cars. Just make sure you carve away any wood so that the wheel doesn't rub. Option 2: more difficult and dangerous... you can use a vice grip to hold nail in place and tap it with a hammer. Problem is if you scratch the shaft, that could be bad news.
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How quickly should the car go to the left or right. We finished the car and are trying to tune it up. It pulls to
The right very quickly and a lot is that ok? All 4 of my wheels
Have to touch
Hey great video by the way, my son car is hitting the 30 sec spin time . So im wondering should i angle the wheels then and will that make a huge difference?
Great work on shining the axle and using graphite. For that little bit extra, I definitely recommend you angle the nail so that you only ride on the edge of the wheel and have less friction.
Thane Walton
Hey thanks for the advice, was nervous to adjust at the last minute so i just left them alone, He won 1st place in his group and took 1st overall, so we made it to district. Thinking about adjusting the wheels for that though.
jxl1974 Congrats! Hard to say about making changes. Sometimes if the car is running well, you can just leave it as is. If you decide to angle the wheels, simply pull out the wheels and nails, and try to push back in with a slight angle. If you're riding on 3 wheels, make sure the front wheel that touches is the one that angles INTO the track. Sometimes it takes a little playing with it and twisting the nails slightly for it to finally work.
How did you hide 4.5 oz or so weight?
Thane here on my son's computer: Best weights (most dense) are Tungsten. They're also the most expensive. You can find them online or at hobby stores. You can also use lead weights and melt them in. (BTW, body and wheels weigh around 2.5 oz, so weight makes up the rest.)
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great tips. question, when you line up the car at the start (#1 car), did you press both wheels on the right side against the rail?
+MWong2005 No. I line it up so that the dominant wheel is away from the track. That way it can build up a little momentum as it rolls down the track before hitting the rail and rail riding.
+Thane Walton which is the "dominant" wheel? The one on or off the ground?
+MWong2005 The one on the ground that veers into the rail. It's also fine to simply line up the car as you normally would with a little clearance with all the wheels. You just don't want any wheel hitting the rail immediately. That causes friction. The whole concept with rail riding is to keep only 1 point of friction with the rail, instead of 2 or 3, or bouncing back and forth.
Wher can you find the black car's templet?
This was fully built in my dad's basement. But I have purchased a lot of other stuff over the years. Mostly from Maximum Velocity. Here's a similar kit. I think he sells fenders too. www.maximum-velocity.com/8210.htm
If the local rules
Allow would it be better to run just three wheels? That way you could put even more weight in the back?
Yes. If you can completely remove the extra wheel, do it! However, you need a fin or a guide just in case car turns the other way. cut and paste this link: www.maximum-velocity.com/4050.htm
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Thane, is there anywhere I can run my boys car to try to fix problems I'm having? We would love to get better at this. My dad always helped me more like me helping my dad lol. Just would like to make R cars better! I was always running number #1 when I was in scouts. All I want for my boys is to run with the big dogs. I followed your tips but did something wrong I can't figure it out. We have a try stake pinewood derby in April in the east valley. #weneedhelp #thanks
What's your email... I'll give you a few options...
Also... did you read my reply below to Derek Kano a week ago? Biggest focus needs to be on wheels and axles. Including the inner part of the wheel bore. See my LONG response below.
Do u have a Facebook so I can DM you my email
Find me on Facebook or LinkedIn.
It won't let me add u!
Where can I find wheel wings at?
Go to Google and search: "wheel fenders for pinewood derby" Check out the few pinewood derby retailers online like Maximum Velocity.
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My car curves the wrong way. I followed instructions to a T. Any ideas? thanks!
You're saying the dominant front wheel veers away from the track instead of into it? If you have a bent nail in the front, then you simply keep rotating it around until you get it to veer the other way into the track. If you have a straight nail in the front, then you might need to pull it out and try inserting it differently. Might be hard, so the other option is to switch the dominant wheel to the other side, and see if you can get it to work. The best solution is to use a bent nail in the front that you can rotate back and forth to adjust the wheel and veer.
View this other video where I show the bent from nail and how you adjust the veer... ruclips.net/video/HyRbfxGG0eo/видео.html
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I tried all this but the track was plastic. We lost today. Does rail riding not work on plastic? I have a son named Jonah maybe you could lend us your car for next year? I would pay shipping both ways. My Dad retired from making cars and I failed to carry on the family legacy. Jonah did win most original but I want to be fast though.
haha... where do you live? Plastic should not change things. Did you guys come close? What were your average track times? What were the times of the fastest cars?
Are you still a believer in the fins/fenders?
The experts who spent all day tinkering with cars have determined their is a slight benefit to fenders. So if you're looking to improve time slightly, they help. (Like going from 3.005 to 2.995) But if your car is still in the 3.100 to 3.200 range, then the work needs to be on the axles more.
Our district races are on an old wood track, so I can't compare times. We've brought the fastest cars the past two years, but there's another family right with us.
Sounds like you do great work if you have the fastest cars. So if you're looking to get a little extra, the fins would help. Problem is, they are hard to build, so most guys will just buy them from a pinewood website.
T
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How exactly do you angle the wheels? Do you just bend them?
Easy way (and how I do it): simply insert nails at an angle. Rear wheels angled out /----\ and front wheels angled in \----/
Hard way: you can buy a tool that will bend the nail about 15 degrees.
Thane Walton do you super glue the axels at those angles. what is your method if that's not how you do that? Great video, my son and I just got smoked yesterday at are first BS Tourny. I'm going to start early for next year, I'm addicted haha!
Glad to hear you're planning ahead. Did you try some tips for this recent race you did? As for glue, I only use it when the nail is loose. Then I'll just put a drop in near the pointy tip of the nail. But usually, there is enough firmness in the wood that I can push the nail in and take it our numerous times, and it is still firm in place. But if it gets loose, then I'll use a drop of glue.
Thank you. I have a race this Sunday with my Son!
Good luck! I have lots of videos for education and tips... spend you time on wheels and axles!!
@@thanethebrain My son got first place in his Lion Pack!!! Thanks again for your help. We were overall 4th place out of everyone. There were 3 cars that were faster than me out of 30 plus cars. My son got a trophy for winning his pack. I was very happy for him. First time I ever made a car. Next year we are going to kill it.
@@christophersboland Awesome! I love great stories!! Especially when you do your first race and think of all the little improvements you can make to do even better!! Good luck!
yes do exactly what he says I won a 3 times in my district race and been in it 4 times and that was in cub scouts now I am an eagle scout just helping family and friends win in pinewood derby
Great to hear, Mark. Keep up the good work.
I'm pretty much on the same page but the ride on three wheels didn't seem to make a difference , I have one that all four ride and we never lose. The one we have with three wheels only didn't seem to help with speed at all.
+Jay Thomas Must have been other factors. You can build 10 cars and there will always be 1 that is fastest. Your 4 wheel car must be nice and smooth, but a well designed 3 wheeler will win.
What is a good car for a 5 ounce car ?
All the cars shown in this video weigh 5 oz. That is the standard weight for pinewood derby. So the best advice is to follow my 5 tips in this video. 1. Work on wheels and axles. 2. Flat (thin) body and weight in back. 3. Ride on three wheels. 4. Angle the axles. 5. Rail riding. Good luck!
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We followed these tips and had top three cars overall! Top car was 3.088... we placed weight about an half to one inch 8n front of back wheels. Do you put the weight all the way to the back? Wondering if we could get it even faster!
Thane here: 3.088 is pretty good. Glad it was enough to get you in the top. In a lot of packs, you need to be closer to 3.030 or 3.040 to be tops. And 2.999 is the elusive magical number for a race. I put weight about 50/50 around rear axle. Center of gravity should be slightly in front of rear axle. So if you go 50/50, then the wheels and wood upfront brings the center of gravity just ahead of rear axle.
Scott Walton I watched this after building it. We had a wedge type car. Next year going flat and with the tungsten cubes. Great video! I grew up in Mesa and was with a troop near MHS.
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How thin is your black car?
In the front, the thinnest I get is about 1/8 inch. In the rear, most are about 3/8 inch. Then I carve out the underneath side and usually use tungsten cubes. In this video, the gold car is thinnest up front but 1/2 inch in back. The other three are all very thin.
Nice job. I don't understand why people with thumbs down someone trying to help
haha! Yep... who knows why others would do that??? Maybe they only want to keep tips to themselves and not help others??
@@thanethebrain well, had you made all the front- left wheels the u used wheel, I'd not be a Karen!
@@mutleyadamsracing2684 I don't follow what you're saying. Sorry??? Please explain.
@@thanethebrain the red light over Sioux City had a number 7 by it so what was I to do with the Wheels?
@@mutleyadamsracing2684 sit on the slide down the hill...
The track did not have a timing system. Our one car was slow. The other was fast but I think the wheel came loose after the 1st race. I really think rail riding is not the best method for plastic tracks.
Have you ever tried bending all three axels so the wheels are outwards? I have a crazy idea that might work on plastic or traditional straight wheels.
Jonah did win Most Original design but I want to win the race next year.
Rail riding still works on plastic. My dad used to have a plastic track that we tested our cars on. Then he upgraded to aluminum. Touch base with me next year and we'll help you out.
How are you adding weight to those thin cars?
I use a dremel tool and carve out the bottom. Then glue in a bunch of little tungsten cubes. Any of the online pinewood derby sites sell the little cubes. Or maybe your local hobby lobby type store.
what kind of paint do you use?
Most often, I simply use a spray can. Sometimes 2 colors. Like a solid blue, and then lightly spray gold on top to give a little bit of a sparkle. Then I like to use a spray varnish to give it a clear shine. That's how I did the gold and yellow cars. The blue and black ones were actually "colored vellum adhesive paper."
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THANK YOU SO MUCH MY SON GOT A 2ND PLACE TROPHY
Awesome! Love helping out those who want to put some effort into their cars!
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your camera isn't focused
Filmed in 2014... low def camera. lol
If you have questions about anything, feel free to comment and I will give a reply. Thx. ~Thane
+Thane Walton Single mom here, second time at a pinewood derby race with the scouts at church, first time was a mayor fail, (there were tears) are all your tips within the rules? do I only need one bent axel? and it goes in the front, right? the weight should be in front and behind the back axel or just the I inch in front?thanks and sorry for all the questions
+francesca medina Hi Francesca. I've seen a lot of tears and heartache, so I love to help others. If last year was a total fail, I would suggest you try and keep it fairly simple. Bent axles are sometimes tough. But here is how I do them. Rear wheels, is simply put the nail in at an angle. so the wheels flair out at the bottom. /----\ Front wheels. Raise one wheel slightly, and the other wheel angle inward. |-----/ The front wheel that is angled in should ride into the rail. In this case, the right is angled, so you want the car to veer left. If that's all too much, just do the basics: 1. thin body. 2. weight in rear. 3. use sandpaper on your nails to smooth them out. finest sandpaper you can get. 4. LOTS of graphite BEFORE you put wheels into car body. Really load it up. Then insert wheels and make sure they spin well. Once you're racing, do NOT add more graphite. The graphite will get worked into the wheel and get faster with each race up until about race number 10 or 12.
Thanks so much, I bought the axles polish already since I don't have the experience to do so, also go tires that have been smooth also, was going to get the vent axel but it is not legal in this district, I will follow the rest of your suggestions, I will get you know how it goes.
Sounds like you're doing well. Keep it up! Good luck!
How much do your cars weigh?
You want weight close to 5oz. Or exactly 5oz. if you can get it right on.
GREAT INFO!
I wonder if golf ball dimpling would have any positive effect on these. :)
Give it a try and let me know.
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Those are BSA Official?
+Ryne Russell What are you asking about? Give me a detailed question and I'm happy to answer and explain.
Thane, We would like to thank you for your video, it helped us take First Place Weblos II and Fastest Overall. We are headed to district!!! We had to have all 4 wheels on the track though. This video nonetheless was very helpful!!!!
Fantastic news! I always enjoy hearing others make use of these tips and spend some time on their cars! Congrats on your race.
Jewekes Engineering is interested in testing our car to see if we can get down the hill any faster before District... we used exactly what came out of the box to get where we are currently....
Jewekes knows their stuff, so if they're helping you out, you should do VERY well.
Awesome vid Uncle thane
Keep up the great work Jakey!!
I've got $10 riding on a race, very grateful for the tips!
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