We race a lot and use Dyneema a lot. All halyards are tied as bowlines in Dyneema. Last year, we had a genoa halyard break. But the bowline did not slip. If you're worried about it, tie a stopper in the bitter end of the bowline.
In a pinch it will work and I would not worry, but if its part of a permanent solution just teach yourself how to splice it. Looks better, is safer and also quite fun and very satisfying. If you have to use a bowline on it, you could also make the tail end a bit longer than usual, just to be safe.
When the knot slips and its dry it cause friction and heat. Uhmwpe ropes do not cope well with heat. On a boat its usually ok cause the knots are more prone to be somewhat wet.
There are a many different bowlines if you really want it to hold do a double reff, meaning go around twice. We've tied bouys on crab pots using that, but we went around three times and then taped it. It holds and is easy to untie.
Many bowlines? You mean wrong versions of the correct one? I've tied a standard bowline for 40,000 sea miles and never had one be unfaithful. To be fair, I wasn't using Dyneema.
Recently had an arguscussion about soft shackles for asym sheets and someone told me about splicing 12 strand to double braid and making an integral soft shackle which sounded neat and all but I feel like it is faster and easier for me to tie and untie a bowline than a soft shackle. Am I wrong? Is it just taste? Is there a proper doctrine for the doctrinaire? And BTW when I used to go climbing a lot of the time my main tie in knot would be a double bowline with a double overhand safety knot. Much easier to untie after loading than the figure 8, especially when your forearms were pumped.
Honestly I think it’s just taste. I use a simple integral soft shackle on my own boat like the one described in this video: Need to Tie a Soft Shackle into an Existing Line? Try This! ruclips.net/video/IolAHmzrKrk/видео.html But I also sail on another boat where we just tie the sheet pigtail to the spinnaker clew with a bowline, and it’s Dyneema, and it’s just fine too, and probably faster to tie and untie as you noted!
This knot may FAIL. I fly big kites when I kiteboard, and use my personally invented technique called Power Looping. It puts tremendous strain on my coated dyneema kite lines. I don't use bowlines, because they fail - since they will cut themselves - as I've learned the hard way. I tie a figure 8 slipknot, and those don't fail. You can actually see the line cutting itself in your experiment - as the line slips, heats up and melts itself.
I think it's important to understand your particular use case and good to see that you do! Most sailors use 3/16" 5mm or 1/4" 6mm Dyneema which breaks at 12.5 and 4 tons respectively, but most sailing boats under 40' never see running rigging loads greater than around half a ton, which is well below where a knot in Dyneema will generally give you trouble in this size of line. You are using much smaller line which is loaded to a much higher percentage of its breaking load so it's good that you've found the right knot!
The back story behind the title is that another sailor told me they heard you should never tie a bowline in Dyneema and asked me why! Glad you liked the tri sailing footage - that was a great day!!!
I think it didn't slip out because of the electrical tape on the end. I've spent over 35 years commercial fishing on the Bering Sea. I've been to school for net mending, I know my knots. Once while tendering Herring, I tied a boline to the brailer filled with herring. It was a poly line with lots of herring oil. It slipped out. Didn't hurt anyone. But there are limitations.
As a commercial fisherman on the Bering Sea I’m sure you have stories that would turn most grown men to sobbing masses! Yes I agree that there are limitations, and maybe it was the electrical tape that helped the knot hold - I should test it without and see how that holds. I also think it’s important for people to know their loads and size their knots, lines, and gear accordingly. Most rigging loads on most sailing boats under 40’ / 12m max out at around half a ton, which is about 20% the breaking strength of 5/16 or 5mm Dyneema, and also well below where I’ve ever tested a Dyneema knot to slip. Obviously you would want to use something like a splice on standing rigging but the point of this video is that people don’t have to be quite as afraid of knots in Dyneema as they tend to be!
Little dramatic but ok. All my shrouds are in dynima on my F22 trimaran. On a 28 foot monohull of a friend, same thing and there is some permanet tention on it
I have Dyneema shrouds on my F-82R as well and the ends are spliced which is the best method of terminating Dyneema. I created this video because somebody asked me to explain why you should never tie a bowline in Dyneema, as there is some folklore that it will always slip out, which isn’t quite true.
@@SailingTipsCa I read down after and seen that a few others had made similar suggestions of a few variations of the lock loop. I just use a single "P" shaped loop over the rope next to the tail. Once you release the main loop of the tensioned side, the P loop typically falls apart as well. But with that slippery braid you may need to experiment a little I guess. > I worked with an old feller back when I was young who claimed to be the fastest at undoing any bad knot. He would pull his razor pocket knife off his belt and zip, knot undone. Funny old character he was :) > A was just thinking you can splice those braids to put a loop or terminator end on them that wont pull through, but that can lead to other problems depending upon where you are using the ropes. We always used special non stretch braid in water skiing so splicing was the only way (Never knots in ski lines). > Thanks for the video and reply. P.S. Oh, I think the reason some say to not use a bowline is that they can slowly undo when when sitting "loose knot" in the wind, thus the recommended lock loop or P lock if you wish.
P.S.S. I wasn't being silly about the story with the old fella and the knife. In a time critical emergency a knife is the fastest way. Rope is relatively cheap compared to your life :) As an extreme example our local pro fisherman and trawlers often use steel cable (Supper strong rope if you wish). There is always an axe with a hardened steel sharp edge for "quickly releasing" cables next the the main spools. That axe (and the speed of releasing that cable) is the difference between life and death in many situations.
@@axle.australian.patriot Yes it’s required by the racing safety requirements for there to be a sharp knife in the boat cockpit for emergency use. Bowlines are often used to attach headsail sheets, which can get flogged about a fair bit when tacking or gybing, but still I’ve never had one come undone. Thanks for the comments!
If you know a knot well enough, you should be able to tie it behind your back with little problem unless it requires larger action than you can manage. Tying it in front of you with your eyes shut solves that problem. Best I've managed so far is a button knot with my eyes shut.
Yes tying in front of you with your eyes closed is the easiest way of simulating tying in the dark, which is the most likely scenario of having to tie anything without being able to see. I can’t think of any practical application of tying behind your back other than as a party trick!
There’s a widely held belief (myth?) in the sailing community that you should never tie a bowline in Dyneema. One sailor asked me to explain why so I made this video to bust the myth, so to speak.
The bowline is a great knot, but you didn't really test its weakness as I understand it. Its weakness is that it can loosen up under intermittent tension. The Dyneema probably increases that risk, since it is slippery. A more appropriate test would involve switching between having a taut line and having full slack. Maybe rig something to lift and drop a weight repeatedly That said, I've never had a bowline come loose on me, although I typically use them under constant tension.
Yes that would have been good to test! In practice I’ve used them mostly for attaching spinnaker sheets on sport boats, which do include periods of loading and flogging (unfortunately) and have never had one come loose.
I agree, the knot needs to set under high tension. I use bowlines on heavy mooring bridles, but tie the ends down as I find it difficult to pull enough tension. Once in use it is fine.
Nice thing about a bowline is it unties Easily after loaded up. Now think about that your next trip up the mast. There’s the reason rock climbers use a finger 8.
@@SailingTipsCa Indeed, and the one at the start of the video looked too short for me :) Though on dinghies with standard polyester halyards, we were taught to tie a very tight bowline for the main sail halyard
LOL in the video yes! However I do tie bowlines in raw Dyneema every time I go sailing and in some high load applications (e.g. reefing lines) and I’ve never had one shake out, pull out, or fail in any way.
@@jims5338 Yes I also thought it would slip out under the constantly increasing pressure of the jack, which is different than the dynamic loading on a boat that tends to set knots!
Yes that would be a better test. The problem is that my equipment is not big enough to separate the bury from the splice from the bowline. Maybe have to get new gear!
Hmmm... Knots in dyneema is just bad karma. Just as knots in nylon didn't behave like knots in hemp or other natural fiber, knots in dyneema don't behave like knots in nylon. Knot setting, strength, and stability is a much greater issue. "How bad are knots in Dyneema?" ruclips.net/video/MdA9mdDlJ6Y/видео.html
Those guys at HowNot2 make great videos! As they showed you’re not (pun intended) going to get full breaking strength with a knot like you would with a splice, but Dyneema is also so strong that not getting full breaking strength isn’t necessarily a problem. For example, working loads on running rigging for most sailing boats under 40’ / 12m is about half a ton, or about 25% of the breaking strength of 3/16” / 5mm Dyneema, which is also well below the load where a knot will cause you problems. So saying “knots in Dyneema are bad” is kind of like saying “fire is bad” without context - sometimes it is bad, but sometimes it isn’t and can even be helpful!
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We race a lot and use Dyneema a lot. All halyards are tied as bowlines in Dyneema. Last year, we had a genoa halyard break. But the bowline did not slip. If you're worried about it, tie a stopper in the bitter end of the bowline.
Yes adding a stopper knot is a great security feature! Any favourite?
Figure 8
In a pinch it will work and I would not worry, but if its part of a permanent solution just teach yourself how to splice it. Looks better, is safer and also quite fun and very satisfying. If you have to use a bowline on it, you could also make the tail end a bit longer than usual, just to be safe.
Yes splicing is absolutely the best solution for many applications, especially critical ones like standing rigging!
Yes to a longer tail and adding a half hitch after it should also keep it from slipping
@@CullenKasunic Nice and simple safety measures!
When the knot slips and its dry it cause friction and heat. Uhmwpe ropes do not cope well with heat. On a boat its usually ok cause the knots are more prone to be somewhat wet.
@@mylifeisdope916 Yes the speed of the slip is also a major factor in determining how much heat is generated!
There are a many different bowlines if you really want it to hold do a double reff, meaning go around twice. We've tied bouys on crab pots using that, but we went around three times and then taped it. It holds and is easy to untie.
That’s a good suggestion and is still easy to tie - thanks for that!
Many bowlines? You mean wrong versions of the correct one? I've tied a standard bowline for 40,000 sea miles and never had one be unfaithful. To be fair, I wasn't using Dyneema.
There is only 1 bowline knot. Using a round turn or 2 on the piece you are tying on to is sometimes wise. But that is still a bowline
Moreover the tie weakens ropes less for a couple percent and less prone for untieing with variable multidirectional load
could you please test a halyard knot done with dyneema.
Good suggestion thanks!!!
Bowlines where designed to be used on natural fibre rope, if used in synthetics use the double bowline with a long tail which should be stoppered
Good suggestion!
Fun channel. Thanks
Thanks - glad you like it!
A figure 8 knot in the tail of the bowline will prevent slippage.
Yes that’s a great suggestion - thanks!
Recently had an arguscussion about soft shackles for asym sheets and someone told me about splicing 12 strand to double braid and making an integral soft shackle which sounded neat and all but I feel like it is faster and easier for me to tie and untie a bowline than a soft shackle. Am I wrong? Is it just taste? Is there a proper doctrine for the doctrinaire? And BTW when I used to go climbing a lot of the time my main tie in knot would be a double bowline with a double overhand safety knot. Much easier to untie after loading than the figure 8, especially when your forearms were pumped.
Honestly I think it’s just taste. I use a simple integral soft shackle on my own boat like the one described in this video: Need to Tie a Soft Shackle into an Existing Line? Try This! ruclips.net/video/IolAHmzrKrk/видео.html But I also sail on another boat where we just tie the sheet pigtail to the spinnaker clew with a bowline, and it’s Dyneema, and it’s just fine too, and probably faster to tie and untie as you noted!
This knot may FAIL. I fly big kites when I kiteboard, and use my personally invented technique called Power Looping. It puts tremendous strain on my coated dyneema kite lines. I don't use bowlines, because they fail - since they will cut themselves - as I've learned the hard way. I tie a figure 8 slipknot, and those don't fail. You can actually see the line cutting itself in your experiment - as the line slips, heats up and melts itself.
I think it's important to understand your particular use case and good to see that you do! Most sailors use 3/16" 5mm or 1/4" 6mm Dyneema which breaks at 12.5 and 4 tons respectively, but most sailing boats under 40' never see running rigging loads greater than around half a ton, which is well below where a knot in Dyneema will generally give you trouble in this size of line. You are using much smaller line which is loaded to a much higher percentage of its breaking load so it's good that you've found the right knot!
Brilliant keep up the investigation into myths spread by people making money out of clicks on RUclips. Love the footage from your tri!
The back story behind the title is that another sailor told me they heard you should never tie a bowline in Dyneema and asked me why! Glad you liked the tri sailing footage - that was a great day!!!
The title of this video is great...for a different video.
The inspiration for the title is that another sailor told me they had heard you should never tie a bowline in Dyneema and asked me to explain why!
I think it didn't slip out because of the electrical tape on the end.
I've spent over 35 years commercial fishing on the Bering Sea.
I've been to school for net mending, I know my knots.
Once while tendering Herring, I tied a boline to the brailer filled with herring. It was a poly line with lots of herring oil. It slipped out. Didn't hurt anyone. But there are limitations.
The square knot is one of the most dangerous knots there is, it should be only used to tie things that don't matter.
Oh BTW I do love your channel. Appreciate you telling an old fisherman about sailing. Thanks, I look forward to seeing more.
As a commercial fisherman on the Bering Sea I’m sure you have stories that would turn most grown men to sobbing masses! Yes I agree that there are limitations, and maybe it was the electrical tape that helped the knot hold - I should test it without and see how that holds. I also think it’s important for people to know their loads and size their knots, lines, and gear accordingly. Most rigging loads on most sailing boats under 40’ / 12m max out at around half a ton, which is about 20% the breaking strength of 5/16 or 5mm Dyneema, and also well below where I’ve ever tested a Dyneema knot to slip. Obviously you would want to use something like a splice on standing rigging but the point of this video is that people don’t have to be quite as afraid of knots in Dyneema as they tend to be!
@@MrM-hl1vp And I’m glad you like the channel - thanks for watching!
Little dramatic but ok. All my shrouds are in dynima on my F22 trimaran. On a 28 foot monohull of a friend, same thing and there is some permanet tention on it
I have Dyneema shrouds on my F-82R as well and the ends are spliced which is the best method of terminating Dyneema. I created this video because somebody asked me to explain why you should never tie a bowline in Dyneema, as there is some folklore that it will always slip out, which isn’t quite true.
There is also the historic Matthew Walker which can be tied to form an eye and is self-locking.
That looks pretty fancy!!!
The simple solution is an extra lock loop on the tail. Stops the bowline from slipping when loose and doesn't make it any less easy to undo.
Good suggestion - thanks!!!
@@SailingTipsCa I read down after and seen that a few others had made similar suggestions of a few variations of the lock loop. I just use a single "P" shaped loop over the rope next to the tail. Once you release the main loop of the tensioned side, the P loop typically falls apart as well. But with that slippery braid you may need to experiment a little I guess.
>
I worked with an old feller back when I was young who claimed to be the fastest at undoing any bad knot. He would pull his razor pocket knife off his belt and zip, knot undone. Funny old character he was :)
>
A was just thinking you can splice those braids to put a loop or terminator end on them that wont pull through, but that can lead to other problems depending upon where you are using the ropes. We always used special non stretch braid in water skiing so splicing was the only way (Never knots in ski lines).
>
Thanks for the video and reply.
P.S. Oh, I think the reason some say to not use a bowline is that they can slowly undo when when sitting "loose knot" in the wind, thus the recommended lock loop or P lock if you wish.
P.S.S. I wasn't being silly about the story with the old fella and the knife. In a time critical emergency a knife is the fastest way. Rope is relatively cheap compared to your life :)
As an extreme example our local pro fisherman and trawlers often use steel cable (Supper strong rope if you wish). There is always an axe with a hardened steel sharp edge for "quickly releasing" cables next the the main spools. That axe (and the speed of releasing that cable) is the difference between life and death in many situations.
@@axle.australian.patriot Yes it’s required by the racing safety requirements for there to be a sharp knife in the boat cockpit for emergency use. Bowlines are often used to attach headsail sheets, which can get flogged about a fair bit when tacking or gybing, but still I’ve never had one come undone. Thanks for the comments!
If you know a knot well enough, you should be able to tie it behind your back with little problem unless it requires larger action than you can manage. Tying it in front of you with your eyes shut solves that problem. Best I've managed so far is a button knot with my eyes shut.
Yes tying in front of you with your eyes closed is the easiest way of simulating tying in the dark, which is the most likely scenario of having to tie anything without being able to see. I can’t think of any practical application of tying behind your back other than as a party trick!
Or you could tie a super dyneema knot. Start tieing a bowline with 2 loops then move top loop behind bottom loop. This creates a super knot.
Good suggestion - thanks!!!
The only knot I use. Can you tie it with one hand.
Haven't mastered the one-handed technique but pretty good behind my back! ruclips.net/video/OOqvkI_90Y8/видео.html
So, what's „The Knot You Should NEVER Tie”?
There’s a widely held belief (myth?) in the sailing community that you should never tie a bowline in Dyneema. One sailor asked me to explain why so I made this video to bust the myth, so to speak.
@@SailingTipsCaAh, thank You for clarifying. Although the title may be a little misleading.
@@streptokokke1003 It was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek which can be misleading!
The bowline is a great knot, but you didn't really test its weakness as I understand it. Its weakness is that it can loosen up under intermittent tension. The Dyneema probably increases that risk, since it is slippery.
A more appropriate test would involve switching between having a taut line and having full slack. Maybe rig something to lift and drop a weight repeatedly
That said, I've never had a bowline come loose on me, although I typically use them under constant tension.
Yes that would have been good to test! In practice I’ve used them mostly for attaching spinnaker sheets on sport boats, which do include periods of loading and flogging (unfortunately) and have never had one come loose.
I agree, the knot needs to set under high tension.
I use bowlines on heavy mooring bridles, but tie the ends down as I find it difficult to pull enough tension. Once in use it is fine.
@@markthomasson5077 Yes the setting part is critical!
Try again with no tape on the end.
Good suggestion!
Nice thing about a bowline is it unties Easily after loaded up. Now think about that your next trip up the mast. There’s the reason rock climbers use a finger 8.
Yes it is easy to untie after loaded! At the same time I don’t think I’ve ever seen one untie itself even when attached to a flogging sail!
@@SailingTipsCa On a flogging foresail, I have seen sheets untied, if the bitter end is too short.
@@dmitripogosian5084 Yes you definitely want at least 3” or 8 cm of tail on sheets!
@@SailingTipsCa Indeed, and the one at the start of the video looked too short for me :) Though on dinghies with standard polyester halyards, we were taught to tie a very tight bowline for the main sail halyard
Sample size of 1?
LOL in the video yes! However I do tie bowlines in raw Dyneema every time I go sailing and in some high load applications (e.g. reefing lines) and I’ve never had one shake out, pull out, or fail in any way.
I learned to tie the buntline and prefer it for slippery lines, but I can't tie it blindfolded like a bowline!
That's a good suggestion and alternative to the bowline - thanks for that!
I found your video very informative- the bowline held better than I thought it would! Thanks. @@SailingTipsCa
@@jims5338 Yes I also thought it would slip out under the constantly increasing pressure of the jack, which is different than the dynamic loading on a boat that tends to set knots!
Try it again with a proper splice at the other end. You basically compared a bowline against an inferior knot.
Yes that would be a better test. The problem is that my equipment is not big enough to separate the bury from the splice from the bowline. Maybe have to get new gear!
Watch How Not 2 for a zillion measured breaktests.
Yes I agree - they have a great channel!!!
Hmmm... Knots in dyneema is just bad karma. Just as knots in nylon didn't behave like knots in hemp or other natural fiber, knots in dyneema don't behave like knots in nylon. Knot setting, strength, and stability is a much greater issue.
"How bad are knots in Dyneema?" ruclips.net/video/MdA9mdDlJ6Y/видео.html
Those guys at HowNot2 make great videos! As they showed you’re not (pun intended) going to get full breaking strength with a knot like you would with a splice, but Dyneema is also so strong that not getting full breaking strength isn’t necessarily a problem. For example, working loads on running rigging for most sailing boats under 40’ / 12m is about half a ton, or about 25% of the breaking strength of 3/16” / 5mm Dyneema, which is also well below the load where a knot will cause you problems. So saying “knots in Dyneema are bad” is kind of like saying “fire is bad” without context - sometimes it is bad, but sometimes it isn’t and can even be helpful!
everything fails before the bowline:D
It’s a great knot!!!
Click bait!
I made this video because another sailor asked me to explain why you should never tie a bowline in Dyneema! It’s a bit of a myth out there…