Orchestration Lesson: Lili Boulanger, Part 2
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- Part 2 of orchestral analysis of Lili Boulanger's choral work "Vieille Prière Bouddhique" (Old Buddhist Prayer). For a full biography of Lili with many musical samples, please download my Radio New Zealand Concert programme, August 19 2012 Composer of the Week:
www.radionz.co....
Here is a link to the IMSLP.org score. Careful - clicking this link will send you directly to the download:
petrucci.mus.au...
Here are two separate versions of Vieille Prière Bouddhique. The first is slower, the second faster. It might be interesting to contrast the two, as there really is no wrong way to play this between those two speeds - faster has more energy, slower has more grandeur. The first version is a better recording, however, with better balance, a larger ensemble, and a nice open acoustic space.
• Lili Boulanger: Veille...
• Lili Boulanger: Vieill...
I think you have to accept that not all of my viewers are hardcore musicologists. I am intentionally using samples here that can be easily understood, and quickly grasped to support larger points about orchestration. My goal is anything but being a teacher of counterpoint, or harmony either - my chief aim in discussing these elements is only in how they enrich a score and inform the use of instruments in an orchestral arrangement.
This series is absolutely wonderful. Thank you for the time and great information you put into these analyses. And THANK YOU for introducing me to Lili. I have no idea how I didn't know about her. What a treasure and a talent! Amazing to hear what she accomplished in such a very short time.
Somebody commented that the score to Faust et Hélène was now available on IMSLP... but that version is just the vocal/piano score. Yes, you might want to download it and score-read with it - it will give you the basic contours of the music, from which your ear may assign the instruments you hear with more accuracy. However, it's not that fabulous, radiant orchestral score. So everyone with access to a music library, or near some classic old used books stores, please keep looking!
Lili writes the most emotionally potent music I’ve ever heard
This composer has impressive---- astonishing---- intelligence! Her talent comes grandly " most really" to life in the "chemical reaction" with her "genetic soul". Her music has a natural, cosmic purpose, which guides her right to the end of her compositional endeavor.
However, the incredible, scientific, "nano-subtlety", is something else: a grand act of ---- love---- to her public.
This is how her talent really ignites!
You showed us so, so many ultra-careful details, that I received an unexpected "mega-lesson"! I also received "good old" lesson in Humility! Her command of counter-
point, harmony, voicing, impressively, orchestration, is that of a "MASTER" well beyond us! I have years---- centuries---- of learning ahead of me!
What really shook me was: YOU!
You are a, truly, excellently prepared instructor!
I would need multiple, multiple viewings, with countless pausings to write down all the "discoveries" to learn and memorize so many valuable, revealing points!
I predict your pedagogic videos will become so popular!
I tell you and those at You Tube: "keep on bringing us such high-quality productions"! This will be so helpful to so many and will make so many, so happy!
Also, of course, You and You Tube deserve a grand number of great---- monetarily generous advertisers and other kinds of monetary contributors! Thank you so much for your good lessons!
I'm sorry if it came across like a stab. The question didn't come from a criticising angle. I really do appreciate the resources you provide for us free.
Meri. Thank you for your teaching and the quality of your "lessons" and video
Lili Boulanger's Psalm 129 is also a work of genius. Thank you so much for this series.
As a tuba player, the melody of this piece reminds me of the tuba solo in petrouchka. It didn't occur to me until partway through this video, but now I can't stop thinking about it.
Sul tasto makes a difference from pp up. The sul tasto timbre starts to lose its distinctiveness the softer you get. But assuming that you have vibrato, and dynamic arcs that lift up from pp, then it's worth it to mark it. I've orchestrated some very effective sul tasto passages at soft dynamics. It's best at p, with a slower, unfolding melody, or a rich, dark forte. Don't overuse it - that's like putting too much cumin in all your cooking.
thanks for bring nearer this composers to us
Okay Thomas, I appreciate your help. As long as you're producing videos, I'll be here to watch them.
I have been so inspired by the Lili Boulange series I spend several hours listening and working on some of my compositions in Finale. I have not been inspired to create music in more than three years. Now I can't get enough of it. So thank you for this. She was an amazing composer.
You're very welcome! I hope to do more this year! :)
Hi, Farhad. You are still young enough to work toward a successful, fulfilling life career in music. I have seen people start as late as their early 50's with good results. 23 years old is practically infancy. You never know what life might have in store for you - don't cut off the possibilities before you've even explored them.
Read Walter Piston's trilogy of Counterpoint, Harmony, and Orchestration. Take some classes in sight-singing and ear-training. And keep asking questions of everyone.
Thanks so much really appreciate your instruction here - love this sound of Lilly's
Just discovering this extraordinary composer thanks to you. Thank you for these lessons
Pay it forward - if you go forward on this path, then help others along.
You're very welcome!
Thanks, I appreciate that! Yes, I'm actually working out a plan for a publication next year, but the details are still pending. Several organizations would possibly be involved, and the book would be available hard copy or as an e-book. I will make a preliminary announcement soon, and see what interest there is on my channel.
What Thomas has done is give us a fine model of how we can and should approach scores. In addition to giving insight into a beautiful Boulanger masterpiece. I am really inspired. There is much work to be done, so pick up a score and rip it apart. thanks Thomas we all appreciate the tremendous effort you put here. I will be trying my hand a making a similar analysis video articulating your thoughts must be really beneficial.
This piece reminds me of Schreker's "Memnon" prelude, both in orchestration and motivic material. Great piece.
Easy does it, Steve. Functional harmony has different parameter in an orchestral setting. The inflection of different aspects of a chord can change its meaning depending on what note is being accentuated by which instrument. The change of a single note can make all the difference.
Boulanger uses the multiple harmonic structure of the 13th and 11th chords to create relationships which otherwise wouldn't exist. She also dabbles with polytonality in this piece - somewhat of a warmup to her final work, in which she will approach a cadence from two separate but simultaneous directions.
Just stumbled across your analysis Well done! I'm just finishing a transcription for wind ensemble of this wonderful work. One measure before [5] is stunningly hard to orchestrate thanks to the melodic G-natural pressed against the massive G#s in the counter-voices. Knowing the instruments overtones and effect on clarity or muddying timbres is a must.
Mark Stringer, who is one of the world's leading proponents of L. Boulanger.
11:50 is great, screen capped that one. I've only recently reached the facility to do such detailed analysis, and it's still a slow process for me. I can't imagine what your ears for music must be like at this point!
Ok, so first take these phrases as a series of simple two-bar resolutions. Chart the resolutions individually - then look at the root motion that moves between each. Now, look at which note most closely precedes the 5th of each resolution - does it step down by a minor or major second? Are there other relationships of motion in other intervals? Now, apply what you learned to the arc of the melody.
You're not looking at the function of the chords in regard to the melody. Each two chords serves as a chord of tension and a chord of resolution, following each 2-bar phrase. I'm not referring to a cadential resolution. If you can understand that, then go back to my previous message, and look at the chord motion by the root, paying attention to where the end of each 2-bar phrase lands, cumulatively.
"if you make things too easy on your ear , you will never develop .. thank you so much , cp
Cheryl Pyle so so important please check my book primacy. Don t buy without borrowing from library you may not like it I teach this at New England conservatory
In the last few years ,a couple of strides have been made up rhythm,but most ears can t focus on spices if Berg .T monk
Even film scores have lost the flavor of B Herrmann
You have done such a service to RUclips with your channel, Thomas.
Incerdible video! Please more and more! Maybe some very popular piece next? Whatever..thanks so much!
Since you did this, there are now lots more RUclips videos with score available. :)
This is just fabulous! Thanks so much.
Great videos. Thank you!
I think it’s fair to say that this piece is written using modes. The harmony is modal, not just based in major minor but also Phrygian and locrian.
Thank you! Guss. Very inspiring and practical.
It doesn't matter with the Counterpoint and Orchestration books - but try to get the last edition of the Harmony book. Also, remember that this is just a start, and many other great texts exist (like Adler's Orchestration). I'm recommending these books as a start, not as the last word.
Once again, bravo and thank you.
Thank You, THANK YOU !!! a 1000 times....
Thank you so very much for your video's on Lili Boulanger. I am only an amatuer musician and an ex Trombonist, I found the music of Lili Boulanger wonderful, there were many parts of the scores which I did not understand, no reflection on your explanations,, I will now be serching for works by LB
Thanks for your wonderful contributions to the study of Lili Boulanger's music! The pedagogical videos are excellent!
THANK YOU!!!
A wonderful continuation of the 1st lesson. Thank you Mr.Goss, I hope you keep doing videos like this!
Thank you sir for these incredibly insightful lessons. They're truly inspiring, though they give me the idea that I will never be able to learn al this in one lifetime! Please keep you're video's coming! Y
Thank you for doing these vids. I purchased this piece through iTunes thanks to your initial vid. Really beautiful harmonies.
Tyler, Tyler, Tyler...I appreciate the depth of your curiosity, but I cannot substitute for a harmony teacher. I'm also frantically busy right now. Please pick up a copy of Persichetti's 20th-Century Harmony - it's a fantastic book, and will answer many of your questions with far greater insight than I could provide.
Well, thank you. You are a great teacher
Well...you could say the same thing about any kind of reading. Say that you really loved hard-boiled detective novels. In one page of a Mike Hammer mystery, you might pick up a hundred different details that enhanced your appreciation of the text - all because you read that kind of text frequently. I guarantee that if you read scores as much as you read novels, then the scores will become like novels to you as well.
I loved the NZ radio show you presented about Lili Boulanger, Thomas, whose music is completely unknown to me, although that will shortly change. It seems to me that the piece you closed with, D'un Soir Triste, is pointing straight at the world of Henri Dutilleux, decades and decades after her time.
I plan to cover that and D'un matin de printemps over the next 12 months or so.
Thank You! We'll appreciate more and more of these video!!
Really really useful! Thank you!
Just discovered your channel ! Wow !!!! I think I'm going to spend a few hours with you in the coming weeks and months !!! ;)
Thanks a lot!
Hey Tyler - I had no idea that you would want to research this so thoroughly! Good for you. But I still think you need to crack the Persichetti, if you find these types of questions so consuming. Keep in mind, also, that some composers stumble upon extremely complex and intriguing harmonic ideas completely by accident, and sometimes even a master like Boulanger might be approaching a passage like this from an angle that we don't even realize.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH also for the links!
Look at the motion of the root and 5th to start.
Amazing! Thanks
Wow, thank you! I'll push myself to do the exercises you recommended! : ) Also, you're doing a formidable job in promoting her music, I for one would not have heard of her otherwise, even though I've known her contemporaries' music for a long time. The music history books we use in class has no information on her either, such a shame.
Once again, my aim is not to teach a course on counterpoint, but to introduce that discipline in a way that supports the aims of orchestration tutoring. The contrary motion in this passage is basic enough for beginners on the one hand, and on the other it's an interesting experiment in melodic tonality.
Neither Debussy nor Ravel accepted the term "impressionist," so it's of dubious significance to claim Fanelli was more so then they. A very old ruckus, not worth worrying about anymore.
I love you both
Thomas, thank you. I much appreciate the analysis and your approach to score analysis in general. I was not familiar with this piece. After watching part one, I went right to iTunes and bought. I have listen to it a few times. Once I know it better, I will go back to the analysis.
I hope you will choose other pieces to analyze and share. LMP
Very nice
I composed lots of different pieces in my teens, with a few frustrating experiences and lots of false starts. Luckily, I mostly composed shorter pieces and sketches at first, rather than big grandiose pieces. It had to do with composing things that I myself could perform, as well as my friends and fellow students.
All I can say is that you should listen to the music and see how my chord names work within the context of the orchestration, and also the relationship of the chords to one another throughout their progression. I'm really quite busy right now with something else, and I don't have the time to watch through this video right now and re-explain everything, apologies.
Great work and service you are providing. Congratulations! It would be great to credit the paintings you use in your videos, they are awesome too!
You have me at a disadvantage, Steve. I sincerely understand that you have a valid perspective on this. However, as I stated before, I am simply too busy working on something else right now to go through everything that I said on a complex topic and defend it. So if you want a dialog on this, you'll simply have to wait a while.
So nice to discover your videos, very informative and enjoyable. Lili was/is a true giant. I just love the harmony, very moving. The Bbm13, if I may, I would call that Bbm96, seems to clarify the notes better in the chord as there is no 11th or #11th. Actually, come to think of it, there is no b7 (Ab) either.mmm! Just a thought. Thx again. Great stuff.
Interesting insight! Of course, the descending whole-tone scale preceded by repeated notes. I'm sure it's coincidental, even if Boulanger was aware of Petrouchka at the time, the setting and tonal relationships being so completely different.
Sadly, Joe, those are only the vocal scores - not the orchestral ones. But the music's still great, and much easier for a beginning score-reader to analyze in that format.
Hi Thomas, to follow up on the questions I had asked a few days ago on the harmonic relationship between the chords, I asked around and got a very nice answer from a university composition professor. If you're interested in seeing the discussion, it's at forum(dot)emusictheory(dot)com. :-)
Hey, I think you can get the 'Pslams' and 'Faust et Helene' on IMSLP now! I really love those pieces.
I find that it's like a muscle that I have to keep in shape, or it gets sluggish. So I continue to challenge myself to score-read and analyze complex pieces to be on my mettle.
OrchestrationOnline fir me too difficult during school year
Yes, the piece is modal. Harmonically it should be analyzed modally.
This video is fantastic, is there any chance of you doing more videos like this with other pieces?
Great stuff, i've been a fan of yours for a while now. I thank you for your time and devotion to sharing your knowledge! Around 5:35 you mention a tritone on the top of the Abm(maj7) but its a aug5th (Cb-G) right? Would you consider making an analysis of the orchestration for "Prelude a l'apres midi d'un faune"?? would def love that!!! Anyway, thank you once again for your inspiring videos! All The best to you sir!
Excelent !!
You may want to update the link to the score - it is now to be found directly at: ks.petruccimusiclibrary.org/files/imglnks/usimg/4/44/IMSLP21037-PMLP48704-Boulanger_Vielle_Pri%C3%A8re_Bouddhique.pdf
Question about indicating sul tasto in very soft passages. I have encountered string players who say such an indication is quite redundant as to play very soft (pp) players usually play at or over the fingerboard. This has been in chamber music setting,
I do think it does make a difference but would it be the difference is heard in an orchestral setting versus a chamber music one.
more. I’ve subscribed
Okay, so you're saying that there are a series of two-bar resolutions. I'm not seeing that, though. at 4:22, the Bbm13 does not resolve to G. D or F#dim would be the chords that resolve to G. In m. 3-4, Bbm6 does not resolve to Em. B, or D#dim would, though. Essentially, I can see no resolutions.
Could you elaborate a bit on what you're seeing here?
Thomas, Does the harmony in this piece work functionally, or is it more-or-less used for color? I know Lili uses the common tone G, but is that the only relation between the chords?
What recording is this and under whose baton? I like this reading of the piece.
I don't mean to be a nuisance, but I still don't understand, and I'm very interested in what you're telling me. Let's start with the first two chords: Bbm13 resolves to the G5. Boulanger uses Bb, Db, F, C and G. Maybe If I saw a D chord (the dominant, and point of expectation to G) in there, I would understand the relationship to the G5, but otherwise, I cannot see it. Can you explain the relationship to me?
Are opposing melodic contours enough to pass for counterpoint? Even when the lines begin with and converge to a unison at every phrase? Also if I may ask, what's your take on the Ernest Fanelli controversy?
Okay, I understand you more clearly now. You are telling me that the dissonance resolves to consonance (Bbm13 is dissonant, and the subsequent G5 is consonant), but are not necessarily functioning tonally.
As far as root/5th movement, the root or 5th is no farther than a major second between two chords. Am I on the right track there? Is Boulanger resolving her chords by proximity (they're close to each other)?
Hi Thomas, I'm not seeing anything particularly useful to me in the root/5th motion. I'm looking at the chart you have at 4:22 in particular for chords. Any hints?
I'm guessing it takes a lot of practice to be able to interpret scores that well.
It looks like your bio of Lili is still on the link!
okay, i'll still read though the score.
By the way, I am only 14, and i've only composed about 20 mins of music. Which is only 1 movment of a string quartet, and a few pieces for piano and Violin. When it come to composing, I love doing it, but I struggle to come up with anything new.
Did you have that problem when you were 14?
It gets really frustrating when I am dong what I love doing, but never finish, let alone start it.
Which would be the best sequence to study these wonderful examinations ?
Start at Part 1 and go forward to Part 11. The works aren't in order of composition, but the perspective on Lili's contribution to music remains consistent and unfolds progressively.
Thanks so much for your kind words!
Not at all - keep them coming. No offense taken, those were good questions! :-)
Could you please tell me which notation software you are using to get the different color to show like that. Does it print in color. I use Finale and it has the ability to show 4 colors, but they will not print in color. I have a great need for such software if it will print in color like that.
Hi Samantha! I use Sibelius. You can set any colour in any shade. I have no idea if that prints in colour, but it sure can export to PDF in colour. Hope that helps. :)
Thank you so very much. Quite familiar with Sibelius. I had already purchased Finale before I learned of Sibelius.
Dang. Only 24. I'm 18, and what have I been doing?
You've been living a fuller life and enjoying all the things Lili never got to because she was sick in bed half the time. Enjoy it, my friend, and don't worry if it takes a few decades to catch up to Lili. She was one of a kind.
2:24 I'm curious why you chose this passage as an example when you spoke about polyphony. The passage itself and the entire piece give me the impression that the composer wanted nothing more than a modest heterophony here which she created out of a lydian-sounding ornamentation centered around g in order to give it a feeling of antiquity. If you hadn't pointed that out I'd have thought the highlights here are in the rhythmic and harmonic writing.
As semibreves reinam...
why're you only reviewing choral work, I hate choral singing, they're is absolutely no choral work that I can listen through, but if anyone has something of capability that exist, you may mention it
Hey there Max, I'm a professional composer, and I'm extremely busy. I love answering questions and engaging with my viewers, but in a positive way, because life is short enough as it is without too much negativity, eh? :) If you look through my channel, you'll see quite a few videos analysing (not reviewing) many different instrumental works without chorus.
when I was typing that I didn't want to put "review" because I couldn't think of a better word, but I meant analysis. Also I frequently flock back to your channel whenever I like to suck in information, but I will start watching the entire Ravel Analysis' instead of watching the Lili Boulanger ones. By the way, Good work on all of your videos, I find them useful, but choral singing just has always sounded annoying to me.
This month's orchestration lessons WILL BE an new study of Lili Boulanger, and it WON'T have any chorus in it. Hope that suits. :) Thanks for your kind words, good to chat with a viewer, especially if you are using the information. That's always good to hear.