Fix it before they sell it? CAR WIZARD gets a '16 Tiguan with issues no new buyer would want
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- Buying a used car today can be a challenge. Especially when the car has an issue no driver would want to deal with. What did the CAR WIZARD's 🧙♂️ customer do with their 2016 Volkswagen Tiguan?
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I bought a new 2013 VW Passat with the diesel engine. It was a great car! It came with 3 years of free maintenance (oil changes,etc). The diesel scandal was resolved after I had owned it for 39 months. I wanted to keep the car but VW offered me just $600 less than what I paid for it new for the buy back program. As much as I loved the car, the buy back deal was just too good to pass up.
Same thing happened to me with my 14 Passat
Roy, Same deal with me. Volkswagen gave me a deal on my ‘12 TDI Jetta wagen I couldn’t refuse. Picked out a new ‘17 Golf GTI and I LOVE it! This baby MOVES! And rides and handles Great! I also have an ‘04 Passat wagen that I use for my beater car. I do any repairs myself. No problems on the GTI and no big problems on the Passat. I’m lucky I guess.
I had a 13 Passat diesel also. Great highway cruiser, nothing like a 700 mile trip with no stops for fuel. also loved the power. And they bought it back
@@johnholm8175it only got that insane mileage because they cheated on emissions. Your car belched out incredible emissions
Always wanted a diesel Passat here in the US. Owned one while living in Germany best car ever owned.
VW gets a lot of hate, but I’m on my third VW (Arteon). My mom is on her third Passat. Never let us down, but we maintain our vehicles meticulously.
This is true. I love my vw tiguan and I am suprised to see so many haters.
I bought one with 70k miles now has 100k in 3 years I haven’t had to take it to a mechanic once! Just regular maintenance by me. Oil changes, transmission maintenance, coolant change, new tires and rotors. It runs great!
What transmission maintenance have u done?
I got Tiguan 13’ with 110k miles and thinking about trans. oil change
@@luckyluke1076 Should've started drain and fills on transmission 40k miles ago and every other oil change thereafter
@@luckyluke1076 drain and fill the transmission oil. Also take the pan off and change the filter. There’s RUclips vids on it 🙌🏼
@@enajenaj6841 I don’t know if I’ll keep it that long having two kids and a dog but sure if I can get to 200 K I’d be one happy camper!
@@enajenaj6841 These are made in Wolfsburg Germany so the quality is pretty good I haven’t had to replace a single water pump but don’t just take my word for it do your research.
Have 140,000 Miles on my 17 Passat R-Line. Oil changed every 7,000 miles with top synthetic and I service the trans, coolant, and brake fluid regularly. Still drives like brand new!
My ‘03 Saturn VUE had a fuel tank like this. I remember the fuel gauge would never read completely full. It’s a smart design of Volkswagen to have those access holes.
Good on you for letting Mike have his own channel. I agree on the pumps, I've been a mechanic since the late 80's. It never ever ever fails that the tank is full no matter what reason it needs to be dropped.
It's probably because they fill it to see if the gauge is actually messed up.
Damn Will! Maybe I should just go ahead and replace the pump while it’s working when the tank is empty? It’s a lot easier than it be if the tank was full!
The Name Tiguan comes from the Mix of the names of two animals.
"Ti" from Tiger stands for strength and the "guan" is from the german Leguan which means Iguana in english and stands for climbing and grip.
I have owned my 13 2.0 tdi tiguan since new. Coming up tp 400k klm. Its been a fantastic car. You just have to keep very well maintained, which i mostly do myself.
I am glad to hear. Many RUclips warriors in this post have always some issue. I own a 2022 and loving it!
just bought a 2014 tiguan with 97K miles and do a lot of my own work on my cars. the car seems to have been well maintained, no issues to report, but want to get ahead of anything that might be good considering this mileage. any recommendations? thanks!
Good on you for supporting Mike and his channel. Good management there!
here in germany the streets and parking lots of super marketes are full of black tiguans. you see them everywhere. I think they have sold more of them than golfs some years ago
I had a Tiguan as a rental car a few years ago and liked it. The AWD system worked well in the snow. My car is a 2016 Golf with the 1.8 TSI engine. First time in my life I bought a brand new car.
I love my 2021 Tiguan. It has been perfect. There are small things about certain cars that people wouldn't know unless they owned one. For example, the heater is warm almost instantly, about 7 minutes faster than my Tacoma.
@@vinylrecords3199 How does this heat up the coolant faster? Are you saying the entire head heats up faster due to the manifold being incorporated into it
My work truck is a new Tacoma and the heater takes FOREVER when it’s cold as hell at 6am 😂
@@InternetUser._ Its okay, you dont have to replace the head when your turbo or manifold fails. Want some aftermarket headers? Forget about it
It probably has an auxiliary heating element built in to the duct system or infront of the heater core that takes care of warming up the interior until the water is used for that like my ´13 Skoda octavia , it’s amazing on a cold day 😍👍🏻
Still have it ?
That blue Porsche 911 is gorgeous.
I have this model for 10 years now and I love it.
Gas or diesel how many miles on it?
I have a 14 Tiguan and its been a solid car. Wizard you may want to check the water pump for the dealer they tend to give out after a while, there is an aftermarket aluminum one that will run forever. Honestly if you take care of it, and get a good mechanic a VW will treat you very well.
Plastic water pump. What a joke
Sorry but what do you mean take care of it? I really want to buy one but no one has recommended this to me. I am trying my best to do some research.
@@aygwmthe plastic one lasts almost as long as the Toyota one. They all last about 100k miles so that not bad
Thank you, Wizard and Mrs. It may have improved, but I drove a 2010 and thought Euro Junk. For compact SUVs, there are much better choices (Honda CRV, Toyota Rav4, Mazda CX5) available in the same price range
Very interesting that a dealership would send a vehicle out to an independent repair shop. Goes to show you what level of expertise a lot of these dealerships are lacking. In my experience, they’re nothing more than part changers hoping to find the problem.
Its old junk ( think in dog years ) the dealer can yeet this out in two minutes, age and the plastics is nothing you want to explain to a customer that can’t afford 10k to refresh a low mileage 4 banger
Probably came from a non-VW brand new dealer or a used only dealer.
Most dealers here never do used cars themselves
@@jimhaines8370 my store is a small VW store and we normally 90% of servicing used cars ourselves.
its a good sales pitch "Car Wizard gave it his blessing"
My DIL loved her '14 Tiguan until the turbo blew, and they had a bad experience with a motor swap. She traded it for a 2023 Toyota Highlander, thanks to Wizard's advice that I passed along to her 😉 I do love my VW's- had a 2000 Passat V6 wagon, a 2012 5-cyl Jetta, and now drive a '14 Eos with that 2.0 turbo motor... so far so good- I forget to worry about it when driving with the top down on a sunny day lol. I subscribed to Mike's channel a while ago- nice to see Wizard supporting him. 👍
My friend and I worked on one timing chains & head replacement. We put 200 miles on it before it left & change ed the oil.
When it left, it ran smooth and strong.
When we received a phone saying it was skipping & popping out the exhaust we were stumped.
Found that the electrode melted to the piston and valve was bent.
87 octane fuel on hills of PA and full throttle on a turbo engine wasn't a good combination.
So the guy junked it .
I own a 2015 GTI, manual with 71K miles and the car has been almost flawless and it was made in Mexico. So far it has been the best car I've ever owned and the two previous GTI's (2006 & 2010) were also very good cars.
Wait until you get closer to 90 to 100k that thing is going to fall apart.
I had a 2002 volvo s40 with volvos own inline 4 2,0t and it had 250k miles and engine worked perfectly, but because it was based on mitsu carisma chassis it rusted out.
I agree. I'm pushing my luck if I keep it much longer but I can't find a mk8 without paying a big dealer mark up.
My 1999 van has a wonky fuel gauge, too. For now, I set my trip odometer to zero every time I fill up. That way I know when I should add gas. I should get it fixed, but I'm not sure how much life is left in the van.
I owned a lot of cars in my time. A lot. 6 of them was VW. That was how many it took to learn my lesson. All of them was troublesome and broke down. 3 of them where Golf II. I could fix them myself and parts where really cheap. Now I play safe, and drives a Toyota and a Lexus. I only see the dealership for routine maintenance. Germen, French, Italian, Spanish, Swede and South Korean cars is in the history books for me.
These newer Volkswagen's with the 2 L turbocharged four-cylinder engine have a lot of electrical and mechanical problems. So, it is the best decision to do your re-search first, prior to buying the vehicle. Thank you very much.
Honestly I've been 100% Satisfied with my 2016 Jetta as well, no serious problems other than one bad dealership mechanic. She is Running really well with 85k miles.
I’m currently driving a 2022 Tiguan, and it’s my 5th VW. My family has had 9 of them over the last 20 years. The only reason I’ve had so many, is because I drive a lot for work. I put 200k miles on them in 5 years, and then give them to my kids.
2014 Passat TDI and haven’t had any serious issues. I drive around 40k a year. Just do all the recommended maintenance. The one thing is every 40k my dual climate will have the driver hot and the passenger ice cold. Replace the core which is in the kick panel next to the gas and I’m good to go. There was an extended warranty for it but I blew by that years ago. I feel like the more you drive the VWs the better they behave.
85K isn’t much.
My'94 BMW 740 needed a fuel sensor/sender too, and it went out while it was full of fuel as well. It was an easy fix though, access panel was under the trunk mat. It didn't take me more than a half hour to replace the unit and finish the repairs. I don't know about other BMWs but E32's can be really easy to fix or stupid-hard, depends on what's wrong
I was looking at one of these but I bought a ‘16 Mazda CX-5 instead.I feel like I made the right choice.
You did.
Here in Europe most of us, the smart ones will only buy the Tdi VWs to avoid problems as the Tdi here last for ever. .. the TSI not so much
I'm addicted of your videos Mr wizzard, keep going!
I watch every Wizard video when it is posted
@@WhittyPics I actually try to do the same, except when i'm bussy on My job. When i get back Home, i watch Mr wizzard on tv with My Wife ☺️
My 2013 Tiguan 2.0 Tdi has done 200k km, apart from timing belt, a egr valve its been great. I do all the oil changes myself. Nice solid car been great for what i paid. These days to replace it would cost almost twice as much.
Interesting repair, I swear I am always learning something new from The Car Wizard!
That front downpipe is out of its mount on the subframe
You don't see Tiguans or Audi A4s in your shop because the 2.0L is fine if you maintain it. Hope you can figure that one out in the near future. Drive around with no oil in your FJ Cruiser and see how long it lasts. Blame the player not the equipment.
The oil in the Toyota is a lot less likely to burn away or leak out
I remember my joy in finding that some previous owner had already cut an access hatch for the fuel pump in my 1999 Tahoe. I would never have risked it myself.
I bought a used 2011 tiguan from a friend of a friend. I took it to the car wash and noticed there was water pooling in the floorboards. It ended up being the sunroof lines were clogged so I needed to have that fixed. The the engine light kept coming on. The code it was throwing was the intake manifold. Thankfully my extended warranty covered that. I also replaced the brake pads and tires. I don't think the person I bought it from looked at all this before selling it to me. My advice is always pay for an extended warranty because the parts and labor are costly to fix with the tiguan.
my mom bought a 16' Tiguan witrh 4montion 3 years ago with 25k miles and now is at 95k, never had a problem but now has CEL but still runs fine. It's a beast in the snow I've never once have gotten stuck and I live in the upper midwest.
Don’t know if anybody noticed or maybe you guys were working on it etc but at 6:41 the down pipe wasn’t seated properly into the bracket that has the red rubbers
I’m a VW tech and they’re great but usually depends on who’s working on it.
Things as simple as a sloppy oil change or using cheap oil can cause some expensive repairs.
Since you are a VW tech, I like to ask you a question if you don't mind, is Jetta 1.4, Jetta 1.5 and Taos reliable? We are in market for car and looking at Volkswagen. Thanks.
My 2019 Tiguan with 61,000 miles zero issues and it’s more thank 5 years I am driving with my family. Only had to change tires, battery and AC filter.
Do you remember The office the movie? The lady picking up the phone calls...Her voice.....
Ringing my hears
Becomes annoying the sales
Pushing 😂
My mother has this model. At 52k miles the intermediate shaft seal was leaking and required $2500 to fix. I own a 17 passat and the wheel sensors are always triggering all the warning lights and it's $400 a piece to change at dealer.
I have Tiguan TDI diesel version, love the car.
I worked for VW dealer for few decades in parts. Tiguan's are known for turbo problems, rear main seal leaks, Carboned up intake manifolds, and water leaks with sunroof. If you are considering buying one make sure you check the vehicle vin for service history. The rear main seal has to be installed with the factory tool or it will leak. We had shops borrow the tool and trying to install seal without it and they always leak and they call parts back to do the job again.
The Tiguan is very popular in Europe but the vast majority have the Diesel Gate scandal engine. They sell well because they get the job done and return 50-60mpg without any environmentally devastating lithium. In terms of maintenance you do need to swap the timing belt in line with service recommendations. Other than that oil changes when the light comes on or 12,000 miles. You do need to be aware these engines can burn oil when new but when everything beds in after a few thousand mile you are good.
I love my 2018 Tiguan
My daughter's 2012 loves oil but besides that, it's been a great little car
The little plastic "hole" it's there because the EA113 2.0 TFSI had a hole in there for the PCV hose and when deleting the PCV for a catch can, the hole was used as a boost tap port.
The PCV valve for the TSI EA888 is different and that's why theres no whole in there.
I believe crown victorias and grand marquis are the same way for access to fuel pump and fuel sending unit under the seats
It's pretty funny to see how reliablitly varies from countries to countries. The 2.0 tfsi is genuinely regarded as reliable here in europe, but that's only because it sits in the range next to engines like the 1.4tfsi which are even more awful, I guess
This would be an awesome thing for dealerships to have. A standardized checklist gone through on video for "certified" pre owned vehicles or all other pre owned vehicles
I had a 2019 I purchased new in 2019 for $25,000 it was the largest SUV in its class very capable for minor off road or snow driving in 2020 I moved to another state and my closest dealer was 2.5 hours away then I started getting notifications from law offices about lawsuits regarding my make and model so in 2022 I sold it to a local dealer for $25,000 and purchased a new Subaru
Name is Tiguan, tiger and iguana in German put together. I noticed the coolant is not a nice pink. I would Replace the coolant to restore the anticorrosive properties in it so it doesn’t rust the coolant system. We been having heater cores plugging up
Super common in Europe this one, but in general with smaller engines or diesel. It's considered a medium sized SUV here :)
Just a heads up. At 6:37 look at the down pipe hangers. They have popped out of their rubber mounts.
Came to say the same thing. Good eye.
And imo the front cat is a booted flexible joint which often leaks.
I don’t know what Chrysler 300 you guys worked on but all of them have the access panel right under the back seat like you see in this Tiguan. No need to cut holes or drop the tank 🤷♂️
And that is another reason why i drive on the TOP half of my fuel tank rather than the bottom half. It doesn’t cost a dime more and i know i always have at least 1/2 a tank of gas in any emergency…..
0:34 ah yes the phenomenal vw 2.BLOW LOL
VW'S were originally built for the people...now their built for the mechanic...
funny thing is that those with the start button gets the same key as the ones with regular ignitions, so you get a normal key with a swiveling blade that doesn't have where to go (it serves as the emergency key, but not at all concealed as a start-button-key-fob would be). So it's very common to see the plastic on the steering column all scratched from ppl forgeting the start button and trying to start the car with the key, only to find out no ignition switch at all
My 2013 Beetle with pushbutton start still had the keyhole in the normal place, it was just covered with a little plastic plate. In an emergency, you could pop the plate off, flick the switchblade key, and start the car like some kind of caveman. :)
My 2000 Jetta had the same fuel tank access cover. Very convenient! My fuel level sending gizmo started to get erratic and the whole fix took grand total of one hour. On 2000 Jetta this cover was under the right rear folding seat, so access was a breeze. To this day I don't understand why so few car manufacturers offer this great repair feature. Why would you force the owners/mechanics to drop the fuel tank to replace something as basic as the fuel level sending unit??
On cars that you have to drop the tank, I used an old fuel pump and made a fuel transfer hose. I would then mark how much gas it had then transfer the gas to a different car. When the repair is done, I would simply go to the station and refill the tank
FUN FACT, There are thin slots to the left of hazard button, above the radio. You can put your license, rewards cards, etc in them.
definitely subscribing to magic Mike's channel, Taylo's van is awesome, haven't seen those trucks or vans in years.
Looking at over priced Honda Pilots and stumbled upon a Tiguan R line black. Great handling,braking,etc. Panoramic sunroof is awesome.
Only problem so far has been a caliper piston causing uneven brake pad wear.
VW/Audi is known for those weird fuel tanks. I own a 1994 Audi A8, the fuel pump has small hoses going into every area and installing it is a PAIN. It's a common issue that even shops install these pumps wrong and suddenly the car dies at half a tank.
I work at a Euro specialty shop and every week we have a VW or Audi like this one that is getting major work done
Honda CR-V of previous gen still provides access under rear passenger's seat (left one). Didn't check the most recent one, but I own previous gen, so I know it ). Part number for the cap - 74660-S1C-E00
My car has 2 inspection hatches and an in tank filter which blocks up occasionally, also be careful of the balance pipe's becoming brittle
I have a 2019 VW Golf Sportwagen, 0 issues and it has 77,000KM, had a 2012 VW Jetta TDI before and put over 100,000KM on it, only a few sensors went and everything else was maintenance and wear items, if you treat your vehicle right, it will treat you right.
Bold of you to assume that I wouldn't take a $1000 discount for a car that had a non-op fuel gauge. I drove a 1989 Suzuki Sidekick for years that way. Filled up every 200 miles. Took around 9 gallons for a 12 gallon tank. Never ran out.
I fixed one of these With 140.+ miles on it. It had 1 bad injector sent away for test and clean .intake runner flaps broken . Walnut blasted intake refitted new intake from europarts. It also had a massive oil leak from rear main, did not refit OEM inferior unit but fitted ECS tuning upgraded one. Flushed the bad wrong coolant and replaced with G40 correct coolant . It was gone for 4 years since repair and was just back this Xmas for a misfire Diagnosed 1 bad coil replaced with after market as we can't get easy any parts little own Factory OEM ones. Told client The other coils can fail soon also and it's only a cheap after market coil. He reckons he wants to sell it as they now hardly use it. On my Toyota 2004 last of the good ones I fitted 4 new after market coils and 1 failed after 1000 km again. So thats 25% rejects if you buy 4 and 1 failed. Denso ones i can only get from USA rockauto easy if i really want my Toyota to be reliable. I also use denso for all cars if possible, like spark plugs
My 2012 Tiguan (Tiger/Iguana) was a money pit. Fully VW dealer serviced here in Australia. Chewed up coils and injectors, drank oil like an alcoholic likes whiskey, electric driver’s seat jammed a long way from home, electric fuel cap failed so couldn’t fill it. Great to drive but a disappointment to own. Avoid like the plague.
Also in Australia, had an Audi, sent me into poverty…. Never VAG ever again. VFACTS sales statistics shows there are more Australians that feel the same.
Great Team work you two!!! The Wizard the Mentor - with Majic-Mike..
After owning one VW I will not be a repeat customer. I guess I should have learned, since before the VW I had a BMW 😂
Not much better than a VW. Modern BMW's are the same shit
I really like the lower facia vent panel & interesting they use the same floor pan for both 2 & 4 wheel drive models
The scan tool won't find broken wires! Happened to a VW Golf I used to own. Dealer didn't have a clue, independent said "We fix these all the time..."
Mrs. Wizard, those are not leather seats. It's what a lot of automotive brands call leatherette, really just a fancy word for vinyl.
Sold Tiguans when they where introduced. A great yawn from the buying public, at the time, but VW trudged on. Now I see them all over. Non AWD models are pretty useless, but ok if you need to haul 5 quickly and safely.
My sister has a 2015 Volkswagen Tiguan. Her husband was driving the car. Parks it and gets in, car has zero compression. It was under warranty, we took it to VW. They wouldn't honor the warranty. I had to call Volkswagen of Canada and then they decided to take action. The valves were completely gone, melted, timing was off. They repaired the car, did a horrible job and damaged the top inside grille, missing bolts, etc. One month later, turbo goes out. Replaced the turbo and about four months ago, the new turbo failed. ABSOLUTELY the worst experience ever. Shockingly terrible car. Now the panarmic roof leaks, interior bits breaking. Not sure if we have a bad batch, the Germans were not happy on this day or what. Awful.
good utilitarian vehicle
Not all independent dealers have competent mechanics or not at all. It's just the way it is sometimes
The 1969/1970 Buick Riviera came with an in-tank electric fuel pump (the first American production car to do so) and way back then the engineers gave enough care to put an access panel in the trunk to access the sending unit/fuel pump. Why modern engineers don't consider repairs when designing new cars boggles the mind. Like no new car ever needs a fuel pump after a few years? Or do they just figure their cars are such crap they'll be in a junkyard before many parts will wear out?
2005 Dodge Ram 1500 4x4. In January 2023 went to fill up the tank at Costco. Parked it and went in to buy the essentials. Came back to a dead fuel pump. Had it towed to a local shop. They dropped the tank and replaced the fuel pump. Cost me $1,700 mainly in labor and $400 for a rental car while the shop waited for the parts to show up.
Missed the cat exhaust bracket out of the holder on the sub frame, just fyi sir!
I’ve been hoping you’d end up with some more modern vw videos!
Most off my work comes from dealers and they don't apprieciate the work we do for them and exhale when they get the bill . But when they're drinking champers with the profit they've made do they think about us ?
A few cars has these blind ports on the engine, and they seem very strange to a common person, but are actually blinded and not in us in this model. For other models they may be in use if the engine is set in a way that makes it nescessary to use it. I had a Volvo V70 with a blind port on the motor. This had the 185 Hp gasoline turbo engine and an automatic gearbox, and the port was just sittng there. When I used a tiny camera and scoped it, I found it was actually blinded. Just a waste of materials.
I remember when VW built solid cars. Around the early 2000s, things started to go downhill
Seems to be a common story among many manufacturers
Scotty kilmer has a distant cousin in Kansas lol he goes by wizard.I've had audi and vws between other cars , my current is a vw gti mark 6 and it's been very reliable with the 2.0.It hasn't had as many problems as my Mazdas , Subaru s and Toyotas which are mostly touted as great cars across RUclips.I like the wizards content but I feel a kilmer like preference on how he views the best in reliability😂
Toyota's reliability is known worldwide. It's not a Scotty Kilmer or Car Wizard thing. It's reality, proved over and over again.
dont offend the wizard
@@lilpoindexter I still have to come across a mechanic who bashes Toyota's.
@@BubblesTheCat1 I know several.
They are independent mechanics and they all concer that Toyota reliability and durability has declined significantly in the last decade.
Although for most models it is still good it is no longer stellar.
@@williamegler8771 Yeah, I agree. Toyota is slowly following this path of planned obsolescence as well. Sad😢
I have a 2016 Tiguan. Bought at 67k miles, currently at 97k miles. Its been super reliable. Zero complaints. Getting ready to trade for a new model
I just did one of these. 2014 Tiguan and it has the clock spring warranty extension. Horn not working, airbag light on. Clock spring ribbon tore. Also another common issue to look for on these besides the fuel sedor and it actually happens too time to time when they roll in to the delearship shop.
Hey Mr. and Mrs. wizard can we look for any bus updates soon? Keep the great content coming.
Not vestigial, it would in fact be supernumerary. Vestigial would indicate it may of been used at one time
Tiguan is a mix of tiger and iguana. VW held a naming contest…and that name won.
In late 2015 I bought a 2013 Tiggy Sel with 4motion and 41k miles. Did an Apr stage 2 plus( Audi TT Dp) with switchable stock, 93 and 100 octane maps( couldn’t switch on newer gti i traded in for ). Was quick little thing I beat on for 35k miles , I’m sure the next owner had issues with it .
Wizard! Love your site. Almost Zen like. I think that first cat is a flex pipe. It looks the same as my 2014 Ford Fiesta.
Tiguan for the team.
People either love or hate VW but some people think they don’t have to pick a side but they do
Every time a fuel pump fails, baby jeebus cries.😂
Thanks, Mr. and Mrs. Wizard!✌️❤️🙂🇨🇦
Tiger + iguana = Tiguan, if memory serves. We had one of these for a few years. Good little (by American standards) tall car. Coincidentally, my 2013 mustang has a saddle-shaped fuel tank.
My ‘04 Passat 2.0L AWD wagen also has a saddle shaped tank.
Yes, if I remember correctly there was even a contest in a German car magazine (Auto Bild) back then in which readers could suggest a name for the then still unnamed Tiguan and vote on the suggestions.
I bought a VW Taos 2022 , 7800 miles on 7/22/23 and it stalled on 8/6/23 and 8/15/2023. I left the car at the dealer and will never touch a VW again !!! Terrible.