i am slowly putting together a off grid system in my garage and my home. I heard of these panels from another utube channel and ended up buying a pallet of 250w panels for 62.00 each delivered to my driveway. I build my system as money allows and so far i have 8 panels installed. You are right about the tech changing quickly and going used is a great way to save.
I've actually toured their Arizona facility... top notch guys there. I did my whole boat, storage and workshop solar setups using their "used" panels.... and cost is dramatically cheaper than new!
I went to their grand opening in Savannah and they have a great setup down there. The majority of my panels have come from there and they've all worked well for pennies on the dollar vs new panels. Really easy to deal with too.
Because of the lack of warranty, I would follow the "bakers dozen" rule. Buy a few extras, just in case you get some "duds". At anything below 50 cents per watt, you can afford to take that chance, and still be money ahead. If it turns out that none are duds, you can pick out the best ones, keeping the others as spares, or for portable use. A loose solar panel paired with a pulse width modulator, can be a very useful thing, especially if you have an RV. I'm constantly using odd-ball panels to maintain the batteries in golf carts, stored vehicles, and the batteries in trailers and boats during the off-seasons. When maintaining a battery, I often place a diode and a small panel lamp in series with the panel. The light limits the current to the battery, and the diode guarantees that the panel cannot back-drain the battery at night. During the day, the lightbulb also serves as an indicator, that everything is still hooked up. Bottom line, buying used panels sight unseen, buy a few extra!!
Great video. I have been thinking about this as well but it's so much easier to swap out panels on the ground mount compare to roof mount because there is no standard dimensions among the solar panel vendors. Once you drill a hole on the roof for the one type of panel it's hard to change that.
Thanks! Your right each manufacture has slightly different dimensions. However if you go with 72cell panels they will generally be pretty close, and most racking will allow for some variation in placement. You can always look at the dimensions of the available used panels and find one that most closely matches your current spacing.
I have taken a chance on 8 New old stock (6 yrs old )poly crystalline 300w for half new price . Set at the correct angle to suit winter sun primarily. Very happy for the money spent so far. Great video mate ,cheers from NZ
Unfortunately, shipping is very high right now, the lowest cost per panel for shipping is achieved when you get a full pallet. 10 panels is a pretty small number to ship.
i love your frank talk around the costs and what you learned! i'm looking to build an off-grid solar system for my homelab to run server hardware without impacting my electricity bill. i live in canada so just getting a feel for the rules and regulations of cross-border shopping
Some of those blue 60 cell panels were rated as low as 210W when they were new...I have 8 of them which I used in for an off-grid remote building. The good news is that they have been issue free for 15 years.
Talk about a return on your investment...At Least 12,6K of "Rated" Solar per hour. Which could end up being around 5K per hour x 10 = 50K of FREE Paid Off Energy. JEALOUS I am!!!
@@bobswanson8464 It has worked well for me over the years but the batteries aren't "free" and I haven't had a set make it more than 5.5 years so far, with proper care and feeding and top of the line Midnite charge controller.
Dave, please show us the back of your solar array support structure. I’m very interested in how you laid out the unistrut and conduit angles and junctions.
Sure! You can see the whole install here: ruclips.net/video/_xA6qOwnYbM/видео.html There are time stamps in the description if you want to jump to the racking install.
With pallet pricing you can even save more too. Great point. Great video Dave. I actually work at Santan and can help with Pallet Pricing- info and number in links.
Good video, there are a lot of things I would not buy second hand but seeing panels don't have any moving parts they are an exception IF space is not a limitation. Where money a factor it might make sense to buy used and use the extra money on the rest of the system like a bigger battery bank then later buy new ones that are likely to be another step or two up in efficiency...
I have a used solar panel nightmare story. I too purchased 30 pcs of used panels from SanTan. I knew going in that they should not be used on a grid tie system, but the price point lured me over to the dark side. Long story short, I installed 12 panels and everything was fine-until we go a few days of rainy weather. Soon, the SolarEdge inverters would fail to start, a isolation error, would pop up. A conversation with the SolarEdge people pointed me at the panels. Apparently these used panels leaked so much electric current that the inverter saw it as a fault and shut down. I measured from either wire substantial voltage to the aluminum frame. SolarEdge recommended that I use a 'Megger" to see what the resistance was between the cables. A good panel should have 100MΩ of resistance. When I checked mine, I had 47KΩ. I had to replace the 12 used panels and installed new ones and haven't had a single bit of trouble. I took the used panels and installed them in my off grid battery system were they appear to work just fine. I have noticed during the last three years that along the bottom edge they are starting to turn green under the glass-apparently water in getting in an playing with the electrical current that flowing in the buss bars.
@@ProjectsWithDave The panels were Trina 250W. Someone, Santan?, used a laser to erase the manufacturer's data plate and serial number. I had enough to decode the labels. There was NO cracking or tearing on the backsheet. For use with a grid tie inverter wasn't going to happen. Like I said, they do fine in my off grid battery system. I've been designing solar electric systems since 1978, and this was the first time I had any issues with a PV module. That being said, I'd get them again if only for a cabin by the lake off grid battery system.
HOWdy P-W-E-D, thanks I started out with a PALLET of 23 very old / used PV Panels ... so old they came with MC3 connectors instead of the modern MC4 Connectors ... ( 208 Watts each ) 60 cell items from WATTS247 for $ 800.00 + freight ... SunPower Corp / formerly POWERLIGHT ... but sold to me as "possibly" SHARP brand ... they have been powering my HOME all of 2023 on a wood-framed Ground-Mount in Four Arrays 6S / 4P configuration ... COOP the WiSeNhEiMeR from Richmond, INDIANA ...
I have 60 panels I bought used that look identical to those 230w panels. Mine are rated at 250w and still have the Canadian solar stickers. 70-80% of their rated capacity seems average. I purchased them for 40¢/watt.
Some of the utility or federal incentives don't apply when using used panels. It's usually better to pay a little more for higher output panels to reduce your racking cost. Solar modules degrade about 1% per year, so a 1 or 2 year old panel is pretty close to its output when new. Those 385W panels are a bargain....but timing is everything when you find a deal like that.
Yes, It is always a balance between racking costs and panel costs, hopefully this video gives people more options to consider. Others have mentioned a limit on federal incentives for used panels, but no one has been able to link to the IRS document that stats that. Do you have that link you can post here?
@@ProjectsWithDave Xcel has a requirement for CEC/UL listed new panels to get a rebate. Fed probably doesn't. But when connecting to the grid your utility may require UL listed even if used. Off grid anything can be used.
The Jinko panels are used by a lot of utilities and the utilities monitor the output of their panels assiduously. So Jinko has been trained to provide performance from their panels. A utility grade power plant will install hundreds of thousands of panels, check them, and return hundreds of panels that are not performing. This costs panel manufacturers a lot of money, so it forces them to make sure that they mass produce panels that meet their specs. Jinko is one of the panels that utilities use, Canadian Solar is another (Canadian Solar uses its panels to build utility scale plants and then sales the entire plants), and there are other Chinese manufacturers that utilities use. These panel manufacturers are used to dealing with a lot of scrutiny on panels from major projects. Keep in mind that not all used panels may provide performance of the Jinko panels.
Thanks leaving your thoughts on the topic. I have found significant differences in the performance of used panels. Their good for the right application, but don't expect "like new" performance. The Jinko result in this video was unusual.
Basically what I figured. They know long they take to degrade and will simply be degraded to the approximate warranty level. I figured 30% price is decent value for 80% original output.
Used solar panels are cheaper but have low output per surface ,if you are in a windy area the panels structure support will cost you more than buying new panels.
Yes, if your racking is a large percentage of your system cost, doubling the size of it may negate the benefit of used panels. In most cases, I expect the application of used panels is on a small DIY scale rather than large installations.
I'm thinking my panels will get taken out by hail before they age out so large (for reduced rack cost/panel) and used might be the way to go, only because of the hail. Looks like for used it's worth derating the panel by 10-15% for cost/watt
your equipment seems sensitive enough to detect the difference between clean and dusty/dirty solar panels. is there a time frame or maintenance schedule for cleaning solar panels to hopefully improve their performance? i notice at some point in this video that the used panels where dirty, where they cleaned before the gathering the data,.. or better yet were all the panels cleaned, both 'new' and used before the tests were ran? i enjoy how thorough your videos are thanks for another good video!
I would love to buy the USED 380Watt Panels, but that would mean I would have to put MORE Panels on my roofs to get the 4000 Watts I need. But, the 550 Bi-facial Watt Panels would mean I would ONLY have to install 6 or 7, instead of the 10 or 11 for the 380 Panels. But saving a few thousand dollars...could make me lower my Solar Wattage to around 3000watts??? BIG savings and would still meet my needs by NOT over Paneling my needs.
In a grid tie setup, what happens if panel array produces more power that the home is using? My power company does NOT do net metering. A step further: off grid setup. Can an off grid setup operate during the day without batteries as long as panels produce more power than is being used by the home?
As long as your electrical utility allows you to connect to the grid, it shouldn't be a problem. You will feed power back into the grid for your neighbors to use, you just won't get payed for it. I would recommend discussing it directly with your utility. You can get more information on it in my video on gid tie net metering: ruclips.net/video/IwUK1dNJ3n8/видео.html Enphase has a new system that will allow you to do off grid without batteries.
Yes, two years is not brand new. Fortunately I have a Fluke irradiance meter now so I can take exact measurements and compare output to a standard for future tests. You can see the meter in my latest video on my West array performance here: ruclips.net/video/M-5qcmlMLSg/видео.html It's also available on Amazon here: amzn.to/3ByaqhM
I have only tested the used panels shown in this video. If you are going with used panels, it should be for an off grid only setup. SanTan also has some great deals on new panels that are on clearance. Only a 1yr warranty, but for the price they can be a great option. You can see some of the options from my solar panel page on my website: projectswithdave.com/solar-panels/
I worked for a solar panel manufacturer, and I don't think you "wasted money" buying new panels. Not only have your used panels lost a chunk of their useful life, they have also been handled and then shipped lots more. A new panel might be shipped twice before it gets to a DIY homeowner. These have been shipped at least 3 times, and maybe more. Also installed, removed, and packaged. All of that can impact the electrical connections in the cells. In addition to the wear and tear, there is the shorter lifespan and the lack of a warranty...You invested in a solid mounting structure, and a state of the art inverter, so why go cheap on the panels?
Thanks for the insight, I appreciate your perspective! You commented on the extra handling of the panels impacting electrical connections in the cells. What would the damage be, and would it show up immediately, or sometime down the road?
@@ProjectsWithDave Hi Dave! There are different ways a solar panel can be compromised. Manufacturers have gone towards lighter weight frames and glass, saves money and makes panels easier to handle but does create more flex and less overall structural integrity. Panels are not designed with repeated handling and de-installation/re-installation in mind, so on the mechanical side you could have issues that could result in moisture penetration which can lower power production or disable the panel completetly. The silicon wafers themselves are very thin- making them thinner again saves money- but you can wind up with micro-cracks (or full on cracks) within the cells that also reduce power production. Effects of cracks show up immediately (a good reason not to walk on panels!), effects of moisture would show up over time depending on how bad it is.
We call all learn something from all questions. Stop second guessing yourself. You may come across as more stupid by trying to anticipate your own stupidity when none exists as was the case here.
Great in on the old panel. Thanks. One question I have. Do you still recommend solaredge inverter ? I see a lot of comment of its failure and warranty problem from home owner or constructor during 2018~2020. Is it true ? Do you experience any optimizer or inverter problem since it’s commission?
I have not had any problems with my Solar Edge system yet. I have heard of others with failed optimizers, but I have not experienced that issue. They have a 25yr warrantee and since I have a ground array they would be easy to replace.
I have looked at many energy storage solutions. Tesla power walls are a bit expensive. But I have off grid inverters with grid backup. Gyll batteries are the best performing with the safety built in for the money.
What solaredge optimizers do you have for your Panels ? I am using p400 with 375w LG panels. My LGs are producing about 300w at peak time. I am thinking of swapping 12 of my LG for 430w Longi or Jinko.I want to get as much as I can from both my Inverter (10k) and optimizers. ( even If I have some clipping on mid day ).
I'm using P400 optimizers, and as you can see from this video I can mix and match panels with no issues. However, you should be careful, the P400 is only designed to handle a max of 400w. Here is the data sheet: www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/se-P5-series-add-on-power-optimizer-datasheet-na.pdf
They come with "stickers", they just aren't the original manufacture sticker. You would have to contact your inspector and see if they would allow you to use them since the are technically UL listed originally. However, Santan Solar and Signature solar both offer used panels that still have the original UL stickers on them, I would recommend using those for your grid tie system. Here are a couple of options: 310W Canadian Solar $88: store.santansolar.com/product/used-canadian-solar-310w-poly-72-cell-solar-panel/?ref=EverydayDave Signature Solar Used panels link (sells out quickly): signaturesolar.com/shop-all/solar-panels/pre-owned/?ref=SALE
I live in Ohio. The performance can very greatly, and December/January are very low production months. You can see my production results in this video: ruclips.net/video/BatTeSq05rU/видео.html
Just thinking, if in 3 or 5 years down the road , you want to change the used panels or they're not of adequate efficiency, will it cost you anything to dispose of them?
Good question. I don't expect the efficiency to drop any faster than other panels, the issue is more that of new technology making existing panels look inefficient. In that case I expect it will always be possible to find someone to take functional panels for the right price if you want to upgrade. Of course worst case, if you have a damaged panel it would need disposal. Here is an article on the recycling options for end of life panels: www.santeecooper.com/news/2021/072021-How-to-Properly-Dispose-of-or-Recycle-Solar-Panels-and-Equipment.aspx
since they do have about 1/2 of silver in them and the way inflation is going. those panels might be used as barter for their silver content. who knows.
Used solar panels are not kosher in NM. They won't pass inspection. This is unfortunate, because this is a poor space and land is cheap, we don't need the efficiency required for a roof top installation.
If you look at the options on the SanTan website, you will see that some of the used panels still have the original UL listed stickers. These should pass inspection, there would be no way to judge if they were used or new. Of course if you are concerned, you should always confirm with your local inspector. You can call and make sure they the ones you are looking at have the original stickers. See panel options here: store.santansolar.com/product-category/solar-panels/?ref=EverydayDave
SanTan solar. They are sold out now, but they are always getting new options in stock. Check the solar panel tab back frequently here: store.santansolar.com/product-category/solar-panels/?ref=EverydayDave They have some great sales going on right now. There are more details in the description on who to contact for big orders. Thanks!
I have the information in the video description. Santan Solar is a great resource for used and discounted new panels here: store.santansolar.com/product-category/solar-panels/?ref=EverydayDave&Menu&Header&Solar%20Panels
They technically no longer have their UL listing from the original manufacture visible. Depending on where you live, your inspector may not approve. Otherwise functionally speaking there is no issue. If you want to use them for an on grid system, I would confirm with your utility and electrical inspector first.
It depends on your interpretation of "original installation." It could mean new materials, however, it could also be interpreted to mean If at some point I had an original roof installation and later payed to have it removed and re-installed to replace the shingles, that would not qualify as the "original installation". Of course you should always consult your tax advisor for tax advise. I have attached a link to those two IRS forms for peoples reference: 2021 Form 5695: www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f5695.pdf 2021 Instructions for Form 5695: www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i5695.pdf
For the low wattage panels, I've received more since that time. Some have actually been much better. If you plan for the 240W panels to perform like 200W panels you will be pretty safe. The Jinko panels were a small lot, there aren't any more to be purchased at this time. Out of the 30 panels I purchased, there was one that performed very poorly. Of the remaining panels, half performed "like new" and the other half performed at 85% of new.
Awesome! Can you tell me how much energy your produce in 24hr with your one of your 375W panel on a little cloudy day? Are these 375W panels monocrystalline? Thanks for the video!
Per 24h, of course that is my worst performing day. That's why off grid can be so challenging, if you have several days of snow and bad weather you need a very large battery or a backup generator to get through to the sun. : )
I went old panels, 195.8w power (rated 240) but I paid less than 35 bucks for them. I was going to go for newer bigger 385w panels but they cost around 90 bucks. They hit my minimum requirement and it's winter here. I should check them in the summer sun as it gets a lot stronger. .. but our temps are low 3 oC Ov is around 33/4 (rated 37.5). You didn't really do apple for apple testing as the power is about the area as much as it is about the tech. Old panels are about 3% lower than newer ones, and when You're talking 15-17% that's a fair chunk. And as you can see from the size difference that's a few amps (about 40%) more area.. So doing the math of power not cost... A 190 +40% that's 270.3 watts.. See a lot less different in performance. Ps the panels looked like old Trina. Well worn by the look of them. But performance you measured put them 40+45 watt down on the rating, withstanding that it wasn't a great day. I can't remember the new panel performance and the other old panel you tried.
By my calculations comparing directly to known panels in the same lighting conditions, the "Trina" panels were putting out 12% less than their rated performance. The Jinko panels were putting out basically at their rated performance. When I did the cost/watt comparison I assumed the 230W panels were only going to produce 200W in perfect conditions. On a cost/watt basis, it's hard to beat used panels, but there are always other things to consider. As you mentioned, the power per unit area may be a consideration if you have limited space or expensive racking. Thanks for the input!
I was not comparing 230W panels to 340W panels. The 340W panels are used as a benchmark for irradiance. The comparison is to show the percent of rated performance each panel was achieving. It is a simple way to measure rated performance under equivalent irradiance. Hope that helps. Thanks
You do not need optimizers why do you people keep pushing extra cost. Optimizers are only good if you have shading and it only helps a little. Optimizers are not that good for the price.
We are Saved by Grace Through FAITH NOT WORKS. Salvation is a free gift from GOD given to those all who will believe LORD JESUS CHRIST DIED AS A SALVATION LAMB for our sins by the BLOOD OF LORD JESUS CHRIST HIS BLOOD CLEANSES Our SINS !!!
@@marktan3668 power prices have tripled here in the last year & business owners I know are closing down their premises because of it, so if they had invested upfront in solar they'd probably still be able to stay open. & Power is still going up here!
Find More information for this project and others on my website: projectswithdave.com
i am slowly putting together a off grid system in my garage and my home. I heard of these panels from another utube channel and ended up buying a pallet of 250w panels for 62.00 each delivered to my driveway. I build my system as money allows and so far i have 8 panels installed. You are right about the tech changing quickly and going used is a great way to save.
Way to go! Sounds like you are doing your research and you will be able to be proud of the efficient solution you finally put together.
I’m doing the same with 230watt panels. Like he said. Even 200 watt panels value makes a huge savings.
I've actually toured their Arizona facility... top notch guys there. I did my whole boat, storage and workshop solar setups using their "used" panels.... and cost is dramatically cheaper than new!
That's Great! Thanks for sharing your experience!
I’ll repeat what others have said: great, no nonsense, facts full video. Keep up the great work, subbed
I went to their grand opening in Savannah and they have a great setup down there. The majority of my panels have come from there and they've all worked well for pennies on the dollar vs new panels. Really easy to deal with too.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
It's never a waste of money, you learned about solar
Your right, if I chock it up to education, it's all been worth it. : )
Because of the lack of warranty, I would follow the "bakers dozen" rule. Buy a few extras, just in case you get some "duds". At anything below 50 cents per watt, you can afford to take that chance, and still be money ahead. If it turns out that none are duds, you can pick out the best ones, keeping the others as spares, or for portable use. A loose solar panel paired with a pulse width modulator, can be a very useful thing, especially if you have an RV. I'm constantly using odd-ball panels to maintain the batteries in golf carts, stored vehicles, and the batteries in trailers and boats during the off-seasons. When maintaining a battery, I often place a diode and a small panel lamp in series with the panel. The light limits the current to the battery, and the diode guarantees that the panel cannot back-drain the battery at night. During the day, the lightbulb also serves as an indicator, that everything is still hooked up. Bottom line, buying used panels sight unseen, buy a few extra!!
Great advice, thanks!
Used panels that may then be re used again. That is the definition of sustainability. Good job, great video, fantastic information 👏
Thanks for watching!
Great video. I have been thinking about this as well but it's so much easier to swap out panels on the ground mount compare to roof mount because there is no standard dimensions among the solar panel vendors. Once you drill a hole on the roof for the one type of panel it's hard to change that.
Thanks! Your right each manufacture has slightly different dimensions. However if you go with 72cell panels they will generally be pretty close, and most racking will allow for some variation in placement. You can always look at the dimensions of the available used panels and find one that most closely matches your current spacing.
I have taken a chance on 8 New old stock (6 yrs old )poly crystalline 300w for half new price . Set at the correct angle to suit winter sun primarily. Very happy for the money spent so far. Great video mate ,cheers from NZ
Thanks for posting your actual situation. Sounds like you got a good deal and it's working out for you. Nice!
Thanks for the video. I checked and it cost more for shipping then the panels if I buy 10 240w panels.(Panels $425 Cheapest
Shipping $490)
Unfortunately, shipping is very high right now, the lowest cost per panel for shipping is achieved when you get a full pallet. 10 panels is a pretty small number to ship.
Great show. I like your thinking. I usually buy used stuff anyway. Must be the Scotsman in me
Thanks 👍
i love your frank talk around the costs and what you learned! i'm looking to build an off-grid solar system for my homelab to run server hardware without impacting my electricity bill. i live in canada so just getting a feel for the rules and regulations of cross-border shopping
Nice! Sounds like a great application for some low cost solar solutions.
Some of those blue 60 cell panels were rated as low as 210W when they were new...I have 8 of them which I used in for an off-grid remote building. The good news is that they have been issue free for 15 years.
Thanks for the feedback on the long term reliability!
Talk about a return on your investment...At Least 12,6K of "Rated" Solar per hour. Which could end up being around 5K per hour x 10 = 50K of FREE Paid Off Energy.
JEALOUS I am!!!
@@bobswanson8464 It has worked well for me over the years but the batteries aren't "free" and I haven't had a set make it more than 5.5 years so far, with proper care and feeding and top of the line Midnite charge controller.
I like watching smart people doing smart stuff 👌 great video
Glad you enjoyed it!
Dave, please show us the back of your solar array support structure. I’m very interested in how you laid out the unistrut and conduit angles and junctions.
Sure! You can see the whole install here: ruclips.net/video/_xA6qOwnYbM/видео.html
There are time stamps in the description if you want to jump to the racking install.
Enjoyed your video. Great idea, even if you buy 2 pallets you can make some power
Right! You cant beat the Cost/watt.
With pallet pricing you can even save more too. Great point. Great video Dave. I actually work at Santan and can help with Pallet Pricing- info and number in links.
@@lindahebert6632 SanTan??? How do I contact??
Linda's contact information is in the video description.
Good video, there are a lot of things I would not buy second hand but seeing panels don't have any moving parts they are an exception IF space is not a limitation. Where money a factor it might make sense to buy used and use the extra money on the rest of the system like a bigger battery bank then later buy new ones that are likely to be another step or two up in efficiency...
Yes, if space is a constraint, used panels might not be the best choice since they tend to be lower wattage then the latest ones on the market.
I have a used solar panel nightmare story. I too purchased 30 pcs of used panels from SanTan. I knew going in that they should not be used on a grid tie system, but the price point lured me over to the dark side. Long story short, I installed 12 panels and everything was fine-until we go a few days of rainy weather. Soon, the SolarEdge inverters would fail to start, a isolation error, would pop up. A conversation with the SolarEdge people pointed me at the panels. Apparently these used panels leaked so much electric current that the inverter saw it as a fault and shut down. I measured from either wire substantial voltage to the aluminum frame. SolarEdge recommended that I use a 'Megger" to see what the resistance was between the cables. A good panel should have 100MΩ of resistance. When I checked mine, I had 47KΩ. I had to replace the 12 used panels and installed new ones and haven't had a single bit of trouble.
I took the used panels and installed them in my off grid battery system were they appear to work just fine. I have noticed during the last three years that along the bottom edge they are starting to turn green under the glass-apparently water in getting in an playing with the electrical current that flowing in the buss bars.
Thanks for taking the time to give your real-world results. What panels did you use? Did they have cracked backsheets?
@@ProjectsWithDave The panels were Trina 250W. Someone, Santan?, used a laser to erase the manufacturer's data plate and serial number. I had enough to decode the labels. There was NO cracking or tearing on the backsheet. For use with a grid tie inverter wasn't going to happen. Like I said, they do fine in my off grid battery system. I've been designing solar electric systems since 1978, and this was the first time I had any issues with a PV module. That being said, I'd get them again if only for a cabin by the lake off grid battery system.
Interesting, thanks!
HOWdy P-W-E-D,
thanks
I started out with a PALLET of 23 very old / used PV Panels ...
so old they came with MC3 connectors instead of the modern MC4 Connectors ...
( 208 Watts each ) 60 cell items from WATTS247 for $ 800.00 + freight ...
SunPower Corp / formerly POWERLIGHT ... but sold to me as "possibly" SHARP brand ...
they have been powering my HOME all of 2023 on a wood-framed Ground-Mount in Four Arrays 6S / 4P configuration ...
COOP
the WiSeNhEiMeR from Richmond, INDIANA
...
You're welcome!
I have 60 panels I bought used that look identical to those 230w panels. Mine are rated at 250w and still have the Canadian solar stickers. 70-80% of their rated capacity seems average. I purchased them for 40¢/watt.
Some of the utility or federal incentives don't apply when using used panels. It's usually better to pay a little more for higher output panels to reduce your racking cost. Solar modules degrade about 1% per year, so a 1 or 2 year old panel is pretty close to its output when new. Those 385W panels are a bargain....but timing is everything when you find a deal like that.
Yes, It is always a balance between racking costs and panel costs, hopefully this video gives people more options to consider. Others have mentioned a limit on federal incentives for used panels, but no one has been able to link to the IRS document that stats that. Do you have that link you can post here?
@@ProjectsWithDave Xcel has a requirement for CEC/UL listed new panels to get a rebate. Fed probably doesn't. But when connecting to the grid your utility may require UL listed even if used. Off grid anything can be used.
Used panels can still be UL listed, as long as the labels have not been removed.
@@ProjectsWithDave There is no requirement that the panels have to be new to receive the federal tax credit for installing solar.
The Jinko panels are used by a lot of utilities and the utilities monitor the output of their panels assiduously. So Jinko has been trained to provide performance from their panels. A utility grade power plant will install hundreds of thousands of panels, check them, and return hundreds of panels that are not performing. This costs panel manufacturers a lot of money, so it forces them to make sure that they mass produce panels that meet their specs. Jinko is one of the panels that utilities use, Canadian Solar is another (Canadian Solar uses its panels to build utility scale plants and then sales the entire plants), and there are other Chinese manufacturers that utilities use. These panel manufacturers are used to dealing with a lot of scrutiny on panels from major projects. Keep in mind that not all used panels may provide performance of the Jinko panels.
Thanks leaving your thoughts on the topic. I have found significant differences in the performance of used panels. Their good for the right application, but don't expect "like new" performance. The Jinko result in this video was unusual.
Thank you!
This is about what I saw: 80-85% efficiency for the used panels over the new. Still impressive value at that price point.
Thanks for adding your results!
Basically what I figured. They know long they take to degrade and will simply be degraded to the approximate warranty level. I figured 30% price is decent value for 80% original output.
I got my panels from Santan also. I also did my own build out.
Nice! What size system did you build?
Mission Solar probably are just branded OEM panels from China, Jinko is a Tier 1 solar manufacturer.
Great video, Dave. I wonder if the degradation curves between new and used panels will look the same.
Most likely
Used solar panels are cheaper but have low output per surface ,if you are in a windy area the panels structure support will cost you more than buying new panels.
Yes, if your racking is a large percentage of your system cost, doubling the size of it may negate the benefit of used panels. In most cases, I expect the application of used panels is on a small DIY scale rather than large installations.
Build a second array with the used stuff and see how it goes.
I'm working on it!
I'm thinking my panels will get taken out by hail before they age out so large (for reduced rack cost/panel) and used might be the way to go, only because of the hail. Looks like for used it's worth derating the panel by 10-15% for cost/watt
If you have hail concerns, consider mounting them more vertically. That will reduce the impact force considerably.
Love the software .. what is needed to have this analysis?
your equipment seems sensitive enough to detect the difference between clean and dusty/dirty solar panels. is there a time frame or maintenance schedule for cleaning solar panels to hopefully improve their performance?
i notice at some point in this video that the used panels where dirty, where they cleaned before the gathering the data,.. or better yet were all the panels cleaned, both 'new' and used before the tests were ran?
i enjoy how thorough your videos are
thanks for another good video!
I did clean both just to make sure the comparison was the same. However, I usually rely on the weather to clean them off.
At ten cents on the dollar which is what I paid for my solar panels it's pretty much a no-brainer.
The only downside is space consideration for output. Someone who has little yard space would probably be better off buying new
Yes, they will take about double the space of new panels for the same output.
I would love to buy the USED 380Watt Panels, but that would mean I would have to put MORE Panels on my roofs to get the 4000 Watts I need.
But, the 550 Bi-facial Watt Panels would mean I would ONLY have to install 6 or 7, instead of the 10 or 11 for the 380 Panels.
But saving a few thousand dollars...could make me lower my Solar Wattage to around 3000watts??? BIG savings and would still meet my needs by NOT over Paneling my needs.
If you are putting panels on the roof, I would use new higher wattage panels. You don't want to be changing them out anytime soon.
The links show the 230W Santan yet not the other 375W used panels. Care to share info on those?
I haven't tested the 375W panels.
Temperature matters a lot.
In a grid tie setup, what happens if panel array produces more power that the home is using? My power company does NOT do net metering.
A step further: off grid setup. Can an off grid setup operate during the day without batteries as long as panels produce more power than is being used by the home?
As long as your electrical utility allows you to connect to the grid, it shouldn't be a problem. You will feed power back into the grid for your neighbors to use, you just won't get payed for it. I would recommend discussing it directly with your utility. You can get more information on it in my video on gid tie net metering: ruclips.net/video/IwUK1dNJ3n8/видео.html
Enphase has a new system that will allow you to do off grid without batteries.
Your panels are also used by now Dave.
Yes, two years is not brand new. Fortunately I have a Fluke irradiance meter now so I can take exact measurements and compare output to a standard for future tests. You can see the meter in my latest video on my West array performance here: ruclips.net/video/M-5qcmlMLSg/видео.html
It's also available on Amazon here: amzn.to/3ByaqhM
What brand do you recommend on the used panels ? I’m thinking about doing solar. Thank you
I have only tested the used panels shown in this video. If you are going with used panels, it should be for an off grid only setup. SanTan also has some great deals on new panels that are on clearance. Only a 1yr warranty, but for the price they can be a great option. You can see some of the options from my solar panel page on my website: projectswithdave.com/solar-panels/
@@ProjectsWithDave thank you. I live out in the country in south Texas.
I worked for a solar panel manufacturer, and I don't think you "wasted money" buying new panels. Not only have your used panels lost a chunk of their useful life, they have also been handled and then shipped lots more. A new panel might be shipped twice before it gets to a DIY homeowner. These have been shipped at least 3 times, and maybe more. Also installed, removed, and packaged. All of that can impact the electrical connections in the cells. In addition to the wear and tear, there is the shorter lifespan and the lack of a warranty...You invested in a solid mounting structure, and a state of the art inverter, so why go cheap on the panels?
Thanks for the insight, I appreciate your perspective! You commented on the extra handling of the panels impacting electrical connections in the cells. What would the damage be, and would it show up immediately, or sometime down the road?
@@ProjectsWithDave Hi Dave! There are different ways a solar panel can be compromised. Manufacturers have gone towards lighter weight frames and glass, saves money and makes panels easier to handle but does create more flex and less overall structural integrity. Panels are not designed with repeated handling and de-installation/re-installation in mind, so on the mechanical side you could have issues that could result in moisture penetration which can lower power production or disable the panel completetly. The silicon wafers themselves are very thin- making them thinner again saves money- but you can wind up with micro-cracks (or full on cracks) within the cells that also reduce power production. Effects of cracks show up immediately (a good reason not to walk on panels!), effects of moisture would show up over time depending on how bad it is.
Thanks for the added detail!
Stupid question: Can these panels be connected to a battery generator via MC4 connectors?
It depends on the unit. As long as the battery station can accept 40VDC or more it should work fine.
We call all learn something from all questions. Stop second guessing yourself. You may come across as more stupid by trying to anticipate your own stupidity when none exists as was the case here.
Great video. what's the name of your solar panels?
Which ones?
Great in on the old panel. Thanks.
One question I have. Do you still recommend solaredge inverter ? I see a lot of comment of its failure and warranty problem from home owner or constructor during 2018~2020. Is it true ?
Do you experience any optimizer or inverter problem since it’s commission?
I have not had any problems with my Solar Edge system yet. I have heard of others with failed optimizers, but I have not experienced that issue. They have a 25yr warrantee and since I have a ground array they would be easy to replace.
@@ProjectsWithDave thanks for the insight. 👍
@@ProjectsWithDave oh another question. Have you thinking about adding a Tesla Powerwall ? Will it work in your setup ?
I have looked at many energy storage solutions. Tesla power walls are a bit expensive. But I have off grid inverters with grid backup. Gyll batteries are the best performing with the safety built in for the money.
What solaredge optimizers do you have for your Panels ?
I am using p400 with 375w LG panels. My LGs are producing about 300w at peak time. I am thinking of swapping 12 of my LG for 430w Longi or Jinko.I want to get as much as I can from both my Inverter (10k) and optimizers. ( even If I have some clipping on mid day ).
I'm using P400 optimizers, and as you can see from this video I can mix and match panels with no issues. However, you should be careful, the P400 is only designed to handle a max of 400w. Here is the data sheet: www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/se-P5-series-add-on-power-optimizer-datasheet-na.pdf
Could I put some stickers on these panels and put them in a grid tie system? Asking for a friend.
They come with "stickers", they just aren't the original manufacture sticker. You would have to contact your inspector and see if they would allow you to use them since the are technically UL listed originally. However, Santan Solar and Signature solar both offer used panels that still have the original UL stickers on them, I would recommend using those for your grid tie system. Here are a couple of options:
310W Canadian Solar $88: store.santansolar.com/product/used-canadian-solar-310w-poly-72-cell-solar-panel/?ref=EverydayDave
Signature Solar Used panels link (sells out quickly): signaturesolar.com/shop-all/solar-panels/pre-owned/?ref=SALE
Were do you live. For the last week here in Michigan I have seen 250 watts out of 14750 watts of panels.
I live in Ohio. The performance can very greatly, and December/January are very low production months. You can see my production results in this video: ruclips.net/video/BatTeSq05rU/видео.html
Just thinking, if in 3 or 5 years down the road , you want to change the used panels or they're not of adequate efficiency, will it cost you anything to dispose of them?
Good question. I don't expect the efficiency to drop any faster than other panels, the issue is more that of new technology making existing panels look inefficient. In that case I expect it will always be possible to find someone to take functional panels for the right price if you want to upgrade. Of course worst case, if you have a damaged panel it would need disposal. Here is an article on the recycling options for end of life panels: www.santeecooper.com/news/2021/072021-How-to-Properly-Dispose-of-or-Recycle-Solar-Panels-and-Equipment.aspx
since they do have about 1/2 of silver in them and the way inflation is going. those panels might be used as barter for their silver content. who knows.
Used solar panels are not kosher in NM. They won't pass inspection. This is unfortunate, because this is a poor space and land is cheap, we don't need the efficiency required for a roof top installation.
If you look at the options on the SanTan website, you will see that some of the used panels still have the original UL listed stickers. These should pass inspection, there would be no way to judge if they were used or new. Of course if you are concerned, you should always confirm with your local inspector. You can call and make sure they the ones you are looking at have the original stickers. See panel options here: store.santansolar.com/product-category/solar-panels/?ref=EverydayDave
When you buy used panels can you still get rebates?
Many have commented on this video that used panels don't qualify, but no one has listed the IRS publication that states that restriction.
Where did you get the jinko for that price?
SanTan solar. They are sold out now, but they are always getting new options in stock. Check the solar panel tab back frequently here: store.santansolar.com/product-category/solar-panels/?ref=EverydayDave
They have some great sales going on right now. There are more details in the description on who to contact for big orders. Thanks!
Where did you buy your new panels so cheaply?
I have the information in the video description. Santan Solar is a great resource for used and discounted new panels here: store.santansolar.com/product-category/solar-panels/?ref=EverydayDave&Menu&Header&Solar%20Panels
Why does having no UL sticker on the panels eliminate them from connecting them to the grid?
They technically no longer have their UL listing from the original manufacture visible. Depending on where you live, your inspector may not approve. Otherwise functionally speaking there is no issue. If you want to use them for an on grid system, I would confirm with your utility and electrical inspector first.
@@ProjectsWithDave I see. Thanks.
Without the ul listing sticker. The building inspector won’t approve. All components must have ul stickers.
Are there any used solar panels available to buy like these in Europe? I wish there was. 😊
I imagine, consider looking online for companies that recycle solar panels and contact them for a source.
Can you provide a source for the software you use to compare panel results?
I used the direct monitoring output from the SolarEdge optimizers.
@@ProjectsWithDave Thanks
you always build a solar ray, why not a bob or john?
They are more expensive, the payback doesn't meet my target.
Used panels get no tax break
It depends on your interpretation of "original installation." It could mean new materials, however, it could also be interpreted to mean If at some point I had an original roof installation and later payed to have it removed and re-installed to replace the shingles, that would not qualify as the "original installation". Of course you should always consult your tax advisor for tax advise. I have attached a link to those two IRS forms for peoples reference:
2021 Form 5695: www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f5695.pdf
2021 Instructions for Form 5695: www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i5695.pdf
They probably sent you a newish panel for "ad" sake.
For the low wattage panels, I've received more since that time. Some have actually been much better. If you plan for the 240W panels to perform like 200W panels you will be pretty safe. The Jinko panels were a small lot, there aren't any more to be purchased at this time. Out of the 30 panels I purchased, there was one that performed very poorly. Of the remaining panels, half performed "like new" and the other half performed at 85% of new.
Awesome! Can you tell me how much energy your produce in 24hr with your one of your 375W panel on a little cloudy day? Are these 375W panels monocrystalline? Thanks for the video!
Every cloudy day is different. My worst performing rainy day in the winter is about 88Wh/panel.
@@ProjectsWithDave 88Wh per 24h or 1h?
Per 24h, of course that is my worst performing day. That's why off grid can be so challenging, if you have several days of snow and bad weather you need a very large battery or a backup generator to get through to the sun. : )
I went old panels, 195.8w power (rated 240) but I paid less than 35 bucks for them.
I was going to go for newer bigger 385w panels but they cost around 90 bucks.
They hit my minimum requirement and it's winter here. I should check them in the summer sun as it gets a lot stronger. .. but our temps are low 3 oC
Ov is around 33/4 (rated 37.5).
You didn't really do apple for apple testing as the power is about the area as much as it is about the tech. Old panels are about 3% lower than newer ones, and when You're talking 15-17% that's a fair chunk.
And as you can see from the size difference that's a few amps (about 40%) more area..
So doing the math of power not cost...
A 190 +40% that's 270.3 watts..
See a lot less different in performance.
Ps the panels looked like old Trina. Well worn by the look of them. But performance you measured put them 40+45 watt down on the rating, withstanding that it wasn't a great day. I can't remember the new panel performance and the other old panel you tried.
By my calculations comparing directly to known panels in the same lighting conditions, the "Trina" panels were putting out 12% less than their rated performance. The Jinko panels were putting out basically at their rated performance. When I did the cost/watt comparison I assumed the 230W panels were only going to produce 200W in perfect conditions. On a cost/watt basis, it's hard to beat used panels, but there are always other things to consider. As you mentioned, the power per unit area may be a consideration if you have limited space or expensive racking. Thanks for the input!
Best thing make panels work 24 hrs a day...
WHY do you compare a 230 Watt panel to a 340 Watt panel?
That is just dumb.
I was not comparing 230W panels to 340W panels. The 340W panels are used as a benchmark for irradiance. The comparison is to show the percent of rated performance each panel was achieving. It is a simple way to measure rated performance under equivalent irradiance. Hope that helps. Thanks
Please spell the two panels and link to buy.
Links are in the description. Thanks!
You do not need optimizers why do you people keep pushing extra cost. Optimizers are only good if you have shading and it only helps a little. Optimizers are not that good for the price.
You can see my cost comparison here: ruclips.net/video/nC7i_GSrGlk/видео.html
Worried you destroyed your backsheet integrity by dragging the frame across it. Hope it lived.
It wasn't as bad as it looked, I was lifting up on the panel. It's ok. Thanks for the concern. : )
We are Saved by Grace Through FAITH NOT WORKS. Salvation is a free gift from GOD given to those all who will believe LORD JESUS CHRIST DIED AS A SALVATION LAMB for our sins by the BLOOD OF LORD JESUS CHRIST HIS BLOOD CLEANSES Our SINS !!!
How does this tie into cheap solar???
Another solar gig. Waste of time
Until your power prices go through the roof with hyperinflation...
@@kiwiguy4706 electrical utilities still the cheapest.
@@marktan3668 power prices have tripled here in the last year & business owners I know are closing down their premises because of it, so if they had invested upfront in solar they'd probably still be able to stay open. & Power is still going up here!
@@kiwiguy4706 where? Which country? Congo?
@@marktan3668 Europe
Thumbs down because of music while speaking.