Its beautiful! My only additional consideration would be to measure the vibration of the past marble machines and ensure that timing is still tight when these new gates are in a similar vibration environment!
Couldn't you just let the next marble sets in just after a drop. This way you can still use the release stage to drop the marble but immediately start the attack and hold until the next drop?
Varför ska du ha den undre armen som kulan vilar på över huvud taget? Kan du inte testa att ta bort den helt och hållet och låt kulan falla direkt från kuggarna som vid 50ms och 25ms där den inte ens nuddade den undre armen. På så vis borde den väl kunna spela lika tight? Den studsar ju lite onödigt mycket på den undre armen.
Careful, I'm pretty confident that changing the dropper material will change this study. A very "bouncy" material (like steel) will likely increase the time until the marble settle. The 3D printed dropper is probably good at absorbing the marble's energy so that they settle quickly! Maybe printing (or mixing) with softer material could even increase this?
I am pretty sure that a longer or differently designed marble queue for each dropper will resonate vibrations back up and down the chain of marbles with each motion as well. Like a newton's cradle, ball bearings are very good at transferring kinetic energy.
Yes indeed, I was thinking this too. Maybe even a little strip of acoustic foam stuck on the end to absorb the energy and stabilize the marble quickly. Would even help to reduce the overall noise too, as when there are dozens of marbles dropping onto the plastic simultaneously it will be very noisy. You would have to change the angle of the part though, to accommodate for the increased height so that the marble connected at the same place.
Martin, also keep in mind materials will make a big difference on this. You can clearly see the gate flexing when you charge a marble, which causes it to take longer to settle. So if the gate was stiffer you may be able to lower the hold time further. Though if the gate is too stiff, that may also cause the marble to bounce more. And that is where material selection comes in.
If he made the whole thing out of aluminum and then put something like a thin piece of felt on the tip that the marble lands on, not only would it prevent the marble from bouncing as much, it would also reduce the noise quite a bit. But I suppose being able to 3D print the machine might be a big necessity for him, especially since there are so many parts and they will need to be replaced sometimes. But yeah there's probably firmer plastic he could print with
@@jackmcslay you wouldnt even need to mill those parts, they could easily be waterjetted or laser cut for dirt cheap with a ton of them out of a single sheet. little bit piano hammer felt on the arms would dampen it nicely.
14:18 This whole scene is captivating and iconic, but "in the B column" had me dying. A spreadsheet puppet show really encapsulates the insane combinations of creative arts and engineering that makes me love Wintergatan
I left around the time Martin started talking about "the blockchain" and stating the machine was going to be built by "professionals". Has he moved past all that?
Something worth checking before you go too much further: it appears that the reason the marble hold time has to be as high as it is, is due to the elasticity of the holding arm. Look closely and you can see the impact deforms/moves the holding arm and pushes the marble up when it rebounds. This is important for two reasons: 1) You can design for this NOW by increasing the stiffness of the holding arm and escapement. Less elasticity will lead to less rebound, which will lead to a shorter required hold time. 2) This will vary slightly from gate to gate, so you will need to include this test for every gate you produce (or at least a statistically significant sample of them) so that you can build in the safety factor that ensures you never run into precision issues due to an out-of-spec gate. Hopefully you've already thought of this! If not, I hope it is able to help prevent a "too many variables" disaster in the future!
Increased stiffness reduces the time constant (also reducing mass of the marble itself does -- but that's maybe not so much an option), but not necessarily the settling time. It could end up bouncing faster but for a longer time! The combination of stiffness and damping is key. A material is needed (or combination) that's stiffer, but some of the stiffness is taken back out with an absorptive material. The result is something that might not be much stiffer overall than the original, but settles much much faster.
@@T3sl4 I guess I should say that I am not a mechanical engineer, so I will defer to the experts in that! I just noticed the substantial flexing and thought that was likely to contribute heavily. Damping is definitely a factor I didn't consider but should have!
As a fellow perfectionist, be careful of the one factor that we perfectionists seem to always forget "diminishing returns". I love what you are doing so far, just be careful not to get stuck in a cycle of "making it better". Diminishing returns can be as much of a project killer as "not good enough".
Good luck brother we’ve tried, precision is now the only goal. He says he wants to make a machine that can play as tight as a human but apparently only the top 0.00001% of humans. He really wants to make a machine that plays as tight as a computer.
Hey Martin, I started watching your journey as I started my mechanical Engineering degree. Your development as an engineer has been a true inspiration to me. Iv felt your struggle as I have fought through the difficult and frustrating realities of engineering school. Finding out that while design and development of an idea can be great fun, the hard science and statistical verification of the ideas behind that design are what really make or break it. I wanted to let you know that seeing you fight through the struggles reality has put before you (with the marble machines and in your life in general) has given me alot of inspiration to fight through mine as well. You are my hero Martin, thank you for being you :)
Exact same story. Martin’s work inspired me to continue through with mechanical engineering. I can’t express how much I have gained watching Martin’s journey. Thanks for an absolutely amazing community Martin.
Absolutely the same for me, although I was ahead of Martin by a few years due to having a failed tech startup and this led me to often screeming at the screen. I was seriously hoping he'd take advice at some point, now finally it happend. He might now have passed me with this testing streak, very rigorous, much more then I usually do, but this might just be his tenancy to overengineer details but lose sight of the goal and picture
Similar here, I started watching this series since the beginning of MMX (the announcement, in fact), and years later started to study engineering. Now I'm a good way through my degree and its quite fun to watch him learning the same sorts of design principles but through a different means (arguably the harder way lol). I'm really curious what sorts of principles he'll learn next. I have a funny feeling that vibrations and material properties will make a rather spectacular and unexpected showing soon...
Martin, I understand that the MMX might not have resulted in the end-state you had hoped, but for me, and I'm sure others, it stands as a symbol of your ongoing process and commitment to elegance, efficiency, and forethought. As a systems designer, your work inspires me every day because in you and your work I see validation of the attention to detail required to bring marvels into reality. To that end, I'd like to ask if the MMX t-shirt design can return to the Wintergatan store - mine is getting old, and I still believe.
I have a suggestion. This setup is pretty ideal when testing the timing without any vibration. But in the future, your next marble machine will vibrate and the marble gate will not be steady as in your experiments. I think you could check for other modes of error by adding vibration to the marble gate.
Yup, I've been saying the exact same thing. He'll need to watch out for any forms of resonance in the finished machine (of course, the machine will have loads of moving parts, musical notes playing, and a complex geometry which is an absolute nightmare for components to start resonating). I would suggest damping the machine wherever possible, like rubber joints or something, or using non metallic components wherever possible. I'm also slightly concerned about fatigue with all of these moving and vibrating delicate components. Hard engineering lessons are on the way...
He can also try to help correct this by utilizing vibration dampening materials and techniques for mounting different parts of the machine together. Marble gates individually or as a whole mounted on rubber bushings may help keep the machine vibrations separated. Additionally, the material and design of the frame of the machine itself will make a big difference. Heavy, thick, solid cast iron like large CNC machines use may be better in this regard than something like beautifully designed plywood.
this is the reason why martin is so preoccupied with making a design that is very precise on its own, so other factors that will inevitably throw off the precision can be isolated and/or minimized
watching martin's decent into precision madness is both terrifying and inspiring. reminds me of the story of Pi and how mathematicians used to spend lifetimes trying to manually calculate pi to extreme precision, only for us to now just press a button and take it all for granted.
Oh my god the adventures of Wilson at the end is one of the greatest animated artistic masterpieces I've ever witnessed. How clever and hilarious, I absolutely adore that 💜
Hey Martin, small tip: often when sampling a parameter, you're interested in how an output scales with it, so you're interested in factors and you want to see stuff on a logarithmic scale. Then you don't want sampling points spaced evenly on a linear axis, you want sampling points spaced evenly on a logarithmic axis and then it makes a lot of sense to use E12 (or start out with E6, sample key areas with E12 or E24 numbers) numbers and you'll do far less useless sampling.
Your quest to have the marble machines play as tightly as a person is capable of was surpassed long ago. You are already at the nanosecond difference stage. Honestly Martin, I think you may be a little obsessed with this concept.
This is great. You are growing so much in the engineering field by doing this methodical process. As an engineer and percussionist myself, I have always found a relationship between the two disciplines. There is very little that will ever stop you once you find the balance between creativity and problem solving. Keep going, I think you are well on the path to success.
Great video! As a mechanical engineer I highly recommend keeping in mind the interaction between all the gates as you start to add channels. Since this timing is depending on materials and flex, it is also dependent on the "flex" of the total rig and other gates acting and reacting. It should hover around your findings here, but there WILL be impact from the total structure if there is vibration from the machine itself. Isolation dampers will be your friend if there is trouble long term. Best of luck!
I still believe the MMX was perfect, at least as far as it went, but I can't wait to see where all of this goes. I just hope Martin doesn't spiral into insanity!
Hey Martin, glad to see you are still at it. One recommendation I would have is instead of trying to compensate with a delay for the marble seating. I would reconfigure it mechanically to when the solenoid is energized, the marble will drop out of the gate; add a slight hold delay, then disengage the solenoid to allow the marble to drop and seat itself in the gate waiting for the next trigger event. This way you won't need to figure out any debounce time for the marble to be completely seated in the gate.
@@blastfiendsunite420 Because he did abandon the project.. These experiments are fine, but he's chasing precision that he will immediately loose as soon as one of those gates is mounted on a MM3
The second of any 3-movement song is usually sad, or chaos, or something completely different, but just wait for the last movement~ as long as he doesn't give up, he will get there.
He used to make art in the form of RUclips videos. He never realized it but the MMX accomplished the goal everyone else had for it. Watching its development was a joy regardless the outcome. He decided that the art of the video was standing in the way of the engineering of the machine and now the art of gone. We got years of entertainment out of the MMX. He thinks it was a total waste save for the learning experience.
@@osculant as somebody with a similar mindset, I kinda get it. Everybody else is looking at what is, but he's envisioning something much bigger. The problem is getting caught up in what is not... and using dealing with this as an excuse to procrastinate on finishing the main project, which started out simple, and has turned into a grand design so immense and heavy that the mere thought of it adds 10 years to one's lifespan. I have no doubt that he wants to build something beautiful, but he needs time, help, and the determination to see it through to its finish. I'll be here waiting - I look forward to it, sir Martin - don't give up
Thank you for your animation. It really made my day yet. Another reason why we miss your videos. I’m glad you don’t take yourself too seriously and you show us every time how you want to make this project So much better with hard work. Thanks.
Okay, new shirt design idea: “I believe” still legible but crossed out (struck through), and next to it with a tape decal “I VERIFY”. I’d buy such a shirt! Thank you, Wintergatan for all the laughs and inspiration over the years. You really have influenced my decisions when designing and creating. You have taught me many lessons (especially function over form, dumb design vs. smart design)! Thank you to Wilson, Martin and his whole team at Wintergatan! Y’all are awesome! - Gears from Texas, USA
I never imagined I would be completely enraptured by a story being told through animated spreadsheets. Martin takes us to places we never knew we could go.
I just discovered the Marble Machine video this year and im so glad u r continuing the development and improving the design! Listen, whenever u think its ready, there's a whole internet that i think agrees: We. Want. More. MARBLES! 💜
One additional thing to keep in mind is the stiffness of the marble gate. It can be seen in some of the footage that the gate prongs that you had tilted forward some to increase accuracy in a previous video, are shaking some when the marble first hits. This settles out during the hold time but a stiff material may also add rebound back into the marble increasing the time it takes to come to a full stop. It's lovely to see you transition to design intent and testing. Keep up the good work!!
Martin is still my most favorite person ever! Not only is he crazy enough to believe in his dreams but he's ready to step onto the biggest stage ever and "verify" the possibilities of that dream. Such an amazing dream, person and Wilson story. I'm a musician and novel writer, and Martin has me beat! Love to you all and to the dream of the Marble Machine. Let's make this a reality.
I love the fact that this is so much more than just building a machine. It is proper engineering, and the scientific method. People can learn more from this than a lot of science courses. Well done, Martin!
Love the ending 😂 but jokes aside, it is very encouraging to see you armed with clear measurable goals and what I hope is a much firmer grasp of what ‘good enough’ looks like too…
I fear the dream of perfect timing will never be satisfied. At some point... isn't it good ENOUGH? I mean... no human plays in perfect robotic time. some variation can actually add to the feel of a piece in a positive way.
Yes, when a project moves along successfully until it becomes complex enough to impart innaccuracies - then rip it up 'n' start again! I admire your dogged determination to nail this and leave no stone unturned, thank you for sharing, Martin!
There's a critical skill when it comes to engineering. It's knowing what to spend more engineering on or less, and you can only get that skill with experience. I was sometimes frustrated watching your older videos seeing you struggle, but I see your experience is paying off.
Thus I am an Moniton Designer and Animator myself this Episode is literally pure gold. Chapeau! To adress to constant issue of unwanted motion und vibration, you could simply use weights on the final marble machine. We do it for example when we do photo shoots. The camera tripod might shake by wind and fall, but as soon as you attach a heavy sand bag, you stabilize it by weights and gravity. To say it in simple words: when transporting from one gig to another you just remove additional weights. As soon as the machine needs to be running you make it as heavy as you can to minimize vibration. Keep on the good work: the way ist the goal, but the result needs the path.
At first I thought you were chasing something unachievable, but as your methodology and processes improve, I am beginning to see the potential success. You’re an inspiration, Wintergatan, keep it up!
First thing that came to mind - when calculating best hold time, best "time to settle", please consider the vibrations a fully constructed machine will introduce into the mix. Hold time stability may be more "wiggly", it may require more time... but consider the intrinsic movement of a fully constructed Marble Machine 3 and how those intrinsic vibrations as the various mechanisms perform may influence things like "stability".
I LOVED the Wilson movie at the end. I’ve been following you for a long time now and I’m enjoying the journey very much. I love this progression into precision because it helps other people know what it takes to build a complex machine of any kind. Keep up the great work!
Im curious how this will work in large scale. These small scale tests are excellent for an individual basis but when put all together in one machine I anticipate unexpected deviations due to combined vibrations or other stuff. I cant wait to see how you handle those challenges
my brother and i used to watch your marble machine updates when he came home from college to catch up and got matching blueprint shirts. Im in college myself now, and was wearing that same shirt yesterday; we've both fallen out of watching regular updates, but i still think about this project whenever i wear it. i still love the design even though the actal blueprint for the machine is everchanging with how much you test and design new elements
Wow. Your engineering skills are equal to your creative ones. The fun, goofy bits do assist the intellectual progress. Again, I am heartened by the beautiful community of makers this has brought together as well!! Your creative uses of technology have helped this project grow wings, and stay in flight.
Your logical approach to problem solving is amazing. You're courage to face reality is beyond most peoples' comprehension. Seemingly more and more these are rare talents these days. AWESOME CONTENT!! MM3X+EXCELLENCE will be real!!
I am writing this comment from 2055, he is on to marble machine 42 and posts weekly updates on studying the gravity effect caused by the lunar cycle and how this affects his release timings.
Your marble machines are masterpieces. Even your play at the end with little gear and mean reality man was genius. What a joy for the world to behold!! God bless all you do!! Don't stop ok!!
Awesome Martin, you are becoming an engineer! Be careful though, if you continue eventually you will learn more and more about less and less until you know everything about nothing.😱
The animation ending is hilarious, even if you kind of expecting it to happen. Good luck! Enjoying it every second. Can't wait for it to become REALITY.
nice work! Small arduino tip: use another pin other than de 13 (DEFAULT LED) nor 0 and 1... so it does not fire the solenoid each time you upload (and you dont need to empty the mabrles every time)
I am soooo glad I watched to the end of this video! that last little bit made me laugh a lot. As a mechanical engineer I can personally relate to what you have been going through! Keep up the good work and can't wait to see what you come up with next!
It is SO great to watch you experimenting mechanics and things and marble systems again ! And seeing you happy to do so is such a relief ! Very enthusiastic for you and MMX2
What if you use a soft material around the cradle for the marble so that it dampens the setting of the marble, allowing it to be more accurate with less time to settle.
Martin, you MADLAD ! I hope you never lose faith in your dream of a perfect marble machine. Your work inspires so many other people who are cheering you on.
I feel like instead of watching the marble machine x get designed over the last few years, I've actually been watching Martins slow descent into madness.
I've really enjoyed these breakdowns, the new ones and the building of the Marble Machine X. It's fun to both watch someone build something as well as kinda learn at stuff at the same time, whether it's about music, mechanics/mechanisms (like these videos) or the ones in the building of X about reaching for your goals and such. I really hope you get everything sorted out and you finally achieve your dream and build the MM MK3! Followed you through the X building, I'm rooting for you!
One thing that I've actually learned from this guys videos is how to solve problems by looking from every direction. When you have an issue. Figure it out and find every possible way to fix it and see how each one goes. Never settle until you get all the information. Wintergratan you sir have helped me improve not only as an engineer but a person because of the things you show and sometimes teach in your videos and I thank you.
Dude! That's just so amazing! You don't just build cool machines and do interesting tests, but you make a cool storyline plus Willson Excel animation as well! That's just so cool man!
Constant Release Time! This is a HUGE improvement. Solves all the timing problems of the previous machines. VERY interesting how tight attack and release can get and still be accurate (enough). Awesome progress! This is the major question I had. I feel massive satisfaction by proxy with this video. I am very confident now that our hero Wilson will prevail in his epic quest. 🙂
Coming back and catching up on all the MMX[-T] progress after having just entered a beta-soft-release of my first public software project... you may be working with physical stuffs while I work entirely in my own virtual reality, but that little sketch at the end is still all too relatable XD
I recommend calculating standard error. It really helps in telling which data points are statistically identical! Should help clear up that murky area. Love the content, keep up the scientific approach!
I have enjoyed your journey. I am a 66 year old designer. I have been fascinated by your adventure. I have learned so much about design that can't be taught except through experience. Your growth has inspired me. I love your journey, please keep informing us, we learn from you and your followers.
lots of comments about the specific design, but what's important here isn't this specific design or the materials, it's that martin is FINALLY learning to isolate and experiment on individual variables rather than chasing design iterations and hoping they work. He's finally starting to think like an engineer -- building discrete components with known tolerances so that when he integrates them together, he will be able to test if they are still in-spec. of all the inspirational/motivational approaches he usually takes, often driven by his very strong artist brain, this is the first time he seems to be truly thinking about data first a working machine will be a thing of beauty because it works, not because it looks pretty hopefully he continues to make progress and doesn't get stuck hyperoptimizing unrealistic values for target variables
I'm no good at maths, graphs, marble bounce times, but I have a friend called Wilson who said that if you make a machine to play music, you must make one to compose it. Imagine teaching it to read your mind ! Love to see that video.
These last couple of videos have gone a long ways towards reducing my anxiety around this third machine. I'm not quite at "cautiously optimistic" yet but I'm on the way there. Once you move on from the gate to designing the next piece is where we will really see whether this time will be different.
You inspire so much martin. Thanks to you i started an apprenticeship of Theoretical engineering, and now im using CAD and machines to realize my own mechanical art dreams
I’m so happy you’re still working on this Martin. When I heard the news a few months ago it made me so sad cause I’d been watching you work on this thing since I was in high school. I’m glad you didn’t give up, MM3 will go on world tour!!! Love your work
Kinda magical how the grass is greener on Wilson's side initially... And the sky is brighter. Almost like crossing the border is a bad idea from the get-go. You're right, lots of character development for Wilson here. Like the art of creating itself is more beautiful and magical than engineering a perfect machine. Maybe perfection is the actual Big Baddie?...
timing in 25-50ms hold time is resembling an old marble gate where marbles were dropped immidiatly and we know that this can't possibly be as precise as 500ms hold time is
I had a thought that the overall shaking/movement of the machine is a variable that you’d need to consider with the droppers. Even if you get perfect accuracy with everything while testing doesn’t mean that would be the case when everything is put together. However, I have faith that this marble machine 3 will be much better than the previous two. Good luck!
If you're going to do more of these, you *HAVE to AUTOMATE IT.* You might be able to do this by getting to Arduino to read the output of the microphone or by using a different sensor (like a clapping sensor!), then you can use an SD card module to store the data in a .CSV file (aka a spreadsheet). Then all you have to do is hit "play" and make a graph with the data later. No more manually measuring time between transients!!!! Basically: - *Microphone sensor module:* remove its mic and connect contact mic instead. This will let the Arduino know when the marble hits the mic. - *SD card module:* You can (probably?) create a .CSV file on the card and store measurements in there, then put it on your computer to graph. I believe the Arduino software has an example of how to do this already built-in. - OR: You can use a different program (like CoolTerm) to log measurements from serial (USB) into a spreadsheet with your computer. If anyone else has any ideas of how to do this better, please say so! I'm very curious to see what other people come up with. I hope this helps!!!
THANK YOUUUUU!!!!!!!! you are really making this dream feel very realistic with your recent tests! it's been a rough time for you and the viewers and i'm very thankful for all the videos you made and the great time they gave me over the last years. Thank you!
I think even the first hand built machine sounded fine. Most people are not going to analyze the waveforms to see how tight the music and then be disappointed it’s a few ms off. Once the machine is fully built you will have hundreds of other things affecting the timing it seems you are too focused on, anything you build now will automatically be miles ahead from the first machine. I get building a gate the best you can from the start, but on a running machine will throw many different curve balls than stationary on a desk. In my opinion it felt like the big challenge from the last machine was handling the marbles getting them through the machine without jamming or escaping. The perfect gate is kind of moot if you can’t first solve reliably feeding marbles to it.
Wilson is showing some real personal growth all of a sudden
My 3d printed wilson reciprocated here
Its beautiful! My only additional consideration would be to measure the vibration of the past marble machines and ensure that timing is still tight when these new gates are in a similar vibration environment!
Couldn't you just let the next marble sets in just after a drop. This way you can still use the release stage to drop the marble but immediately start the attack and hold until the next drop?
Martin has fully lost his marbles now.
Varför ska du ha den undre armen som kulan vilar på över huvud taget? Kan du inte testa att ta bort den helt och hållet och låt kulan falla direkt från kuggarna som vid 50ms och 25ms där den inte ens nuddade den undre armen. På så vis borde den väl kunna spela lika tight? Den studsar ju lite onödigt mycket på den undre armen.
Careful, I'm pretty confident that changing the dropper material will change this study. A very "bouncy" material (like steel) will likely increase the time until the marble settle.
The 3D printed dropper is probably good at absorbing the marble's energy so that they settle quickly! Maybe printing (or mixing) with softer material could even increase this?
I am pretty sure that a longer or differently designed marble queue for each dropper will resonate vibrations back up and down the chain of marbles with each motion as well. Like a newton's cradle, ball bearings are very good at transferring kinetic energy.
Yes indeed, I was thinking this too. Maybe even a little strip of acoustic foam stuck on the end to absorb the energy and stabilize the marble quickly. Would even help to reduce the overall noise too, as when there are dozens of marbles dropping onto the plastic simultaneously it will be very noisy. You would have to change the angle of the part though, to accommodate for the increased height so that the marble connected at the same place.
What about creating the cradle so it jams stuck? Then the gate will un"stick" it.
Silicone.
Silicone sleeving could be great, it has high resistance, however if used in the right spots it can reduce vibrations by a lot.
@@HeatStoker69 noo not foam, foam needs replacing.
Could print from high stiffness tpu though.
Martin, also keep in mind materials will make a big difference on this. You can clearly see the gate flexing when you charge a marble, which causes it to take longer to settle. So if the gate was stiffer you may be able to lower the hold time further. Though if the gate is too stiff, that may also cause the marble to bounce more. And that is where material selection comes in.
If he made the whole thing out of aluminum and then put something like a thin piece of felt on the tip that the marble lands on, not only would it prevent the marble from bouncing as much, it would also reduce the noise quite a bit.
But I suppose being able to 3D print the machine might be a big necessity for him, especially since there are so many parts and they will need to be replaced sometimes. But yeah there's probably firmer plastic he could print with
@@ziko085 I'd say CNC cut metals are fair game. So cheap these days.
@@ziko085 Felt was also my first thought for absorbing the marbles' energy. It becomes the wear item too, I think.
@@ziko085 Aluminiun CNC isn't expensive, in fact the CNC he already has is possibly capable of milling aluminium with little or no modification.
@@jackmcslay you wouldnt even need to mill those parts, they could easily be waterjetted or laser cut for dirt cheap with a ton of them out of a single sheet. little bit piano hammer felt on the arms would dampen it nicely.
14:18 This whole scene is captivating and iconic, but "in the B column" had me dying. A spreadsheet puppet show really encapsulates the insane combinations of creative arts and engineering that makes me love Wintergatan
Spreadsheet puppet show FTW!!!
I think the Excel animation took more time than building the first marble machine
😅
Worth it!
In a few months he has an animation of the full marble machine in excel
"animation" 😂
We all know Martin is the King of Procrastination 👑
I sense the passion returning. This is a fine thing. Each video makes me more optimistic that Marble Machine 3 will happen.
I find it sad that it's going from analog to digital in a lot of important ways.
@@OutermostGold what ? digital where ?
@@OutermostGold no no, the digital part is just for testing without biases, it will not be in the final machine
I left around the time Martin started talking about "the blockchain" and stating the machine was going to be built by "professionals". Has he moved past all that?
Something worth checking before you go too much further: it appears that the reason the marble hold time has to be as high as it is, is due to the elasticity of the holding arm. Look closely and you can see the impact deforms/moves the holding arm and pushes the marble up when it rebounds. This is important for two reasons:
1) You can design for this NOW by increasing the stiffness of the holding arm and escapement. Less elasticity will lead to less rebound, which will lead to a shorter required hold time.
2) This will vary slightly from gate to gate, so you will need to include this test for every gate you produce (or at least a statistically significant sample of them) so that you can build in the safety factor that ensures you never run into precision issues due to an out-of-spec gate.
Hopefully you've already thought of this! If not, I hope it is able to help prevent a "too many variables" disaster in the future!
You are right, and this is why science is tedious and costly! 👍
Increased stiffness reduces the time constant (also reducing mass of the marble itself does -- but that's maybe not so much an option), but not necessarily the settling time. It could end up bouncing faster but for a longer time! The combination of stiffness and damping is key. A material is needed (or combination) that's stiffer, but some of the stiffness is taken back out with an absorptive material. The result is something that might not be much stiffer overall than the original, but settles much much faster.
@@T3sl4 I guess I should say that I am not a mechanical engineer, so I will defer to the experts in that! I just noticed the substantial flexing and thought that was likely to contribute heavily. Damping is definitely a factor I didn't consider but should have!
@@theddrman Indeed, you're on the right track!
Aluminum components with super reliable and tight ceramic bearings would solve this all
As a fellow perfectionist, be careful of the one factor that we perfectionists seem to always forget "diminishing returns". I love what you are doing so far, just be careful not to get stuck in a cycle of "making it better". Diminishing returns can be as much of a project killer as "not good enough".
Good luck brother we’ve tried, precision is now the only goal. He says he wants to make a machine that can play as tight as a human but apparently only the top 0.00001% of humans. He really wants to make a machine that plays as tight as a computer.
"Get stuck again" ftfy
One thing I find helps with this quantifying good enough, so it acts more like a goal, and is specific enough to say when it’s done
Hey Martin, I started watching your journey as I started my mechanical Engineering degree. Your development as an engineer has been a true inspiration to me. Iv felt your struggle as I have fought through the difficult and frustrating realities of engineering school. Finding out that while design and development of an idea can be great fun, the hard science and statistical verification of the ideas behind that design are what really make or break it. I wanted to let you know that seeing you fight through the struggles reality has put before you (with the marble machines and in your life in general) has given me alot of inspiration to fight through mine as well. You are my hero Martin, thank you for being you :)
Exact same story. Martin’s work inspired me to continue through with mechanical engineering. I can’t express how much I have gained watching Martin’s journey. Thanks for an absolutely amazing community Martin.
Absolutely the same for me, although I was ahead of Martin by a few years due to having a failed tech startup and this led me to often screeming at the screen. I was seriously hoping he'd take advice at some point, now finally it happend. He might now have passed me with this testing streak, very rigorous, much more then I usually do, but this might just be his tenancy to overengineer details but lose sight of the goal and picture
Similar here, I started watching this series since the beginning of MMX (the announcement, in fact), and years later started to study engineering. Now I'm a good way through my degree and its quite fun to watch him learning the same sorts of design principles but through a different means (arguably the harder way lol). I'm really curious what sorts of principles he'll learn next. I have a funny feeling that vibrations and material properties will make a rather spectacular and unexpected showing soon...
Martin, I understand that the MMX might not have resulted in the end-state you had hoped, but for me, and I'm sure others, it stands as a symbol of your ongoing process and commitment to elegance, efficiency, and forethought. As a systems designer, your work inspires me every day because in you and your work I see validation of the attention to detail required to bring marvels into reality. To that end, I'd like to ask if the MMX t-shirt design can return to the Wintergatan store - mine is getting old, and I still believe.
I have a suggestion. This setup is pretty ideal when testing the timing without any vibration. But in the future, your next marble machine will vibrate and the marble gate will not be steady as in your experiments. I think you could check for other modes of error by adding vibration to the marble gate.
This is what's known as a Control Test. I'm sure other variables will be factored in eventually.
Yup, I've been saying the exact same thing. He'll need to watch out for any forms of resonance in the finished machine (of course, the machine will have loads of moving parts, musical notes playing, and a complex geometry which is an absolute nightmare for components to start resonating). I would suggest damping the machine wherever possible, like rubber joints or something, or using non metallic components wherever possible. I'm also slightly concerned about fatigue with all of these moving and vibrating delicate components. Hard engineering lessons are on the way...
He can also try to help correct this by utilizing vibration dampening materials and techniques for mounting different parts of the machine together. Marble gates individually or as a whole mounted on rubber bushings may help keep the machine vibrations separated. Additionally, the material and design of the frame of the machine itself will make a big difference. Heavy, thick, solid cast iron like large CNC machines use may be better in this regard than something like beautifully designed plywood.
this is the reason why martin is so preoccupied with making a design that is very precise on its own, so other factors that will inevitably throw off the precision can be isolated and/or minimized
watching martin's decent into precision madness is both terrifying and inspiring. reminds me of the story of Pi and how mathematicians used to spend lifetimes trying to manually calculate pi to extreme precision, only for us to now just press a button and take it all for granted.
Pi is 3
We still use their methods, just with machines which do arithmetic faster.
We "take it all for granted", except we will never have all of Pi... 😥
"One : Mathematics is the language of nature.
Two: When we study that nature, patterns emerge.
Three: ...."
Oh my god the adventures of Wilson at the end is one of the greatest animated artistic masterpieces I've ever witnessed. How clever and hilarious, I absolutely adore that 💜
Hey Martin, small tip: often when sampling a parameter, you're interested in how an output scales with it, so you're interested in factors and you want to see stuff on a logarithmic scale. Then you don't want sampling points spaced evenly on a linear axis, you want sampling points spaced evenly on a logarithmic axis and then it makes a lot of sense to use E12 (or start out with E6, sample key areas with E12 or E24 numbers) numbers and you'll do far less useless sampling.
Best comment in the comments :)
0:00-10:30 Martin, making progress...
10:30-16:13 Martin, loosing it...
I hear ya buddy, it's taxing.
But pls keep your marbles together 😉
Your quest to have the marble machines play as tightly as a person is capable of was surpassed long ago. You are already at the nanosecond difference stage. Honestly Martin, I think you may be a little obsessed with this concept.
This is great. You are growing so much in the engineering field by doing this methodical process. As an engineer and percussionist myself, I have always found a relationship between the two disciplines. There is very little that will ever stop you once you find the balance between creativity and problem solving. Keep going, I think you are well on the path to success.
Great video! As a mechanical engineer I highly recommend keeping in mind the interaction between all the gates as you start to add channels. Since this timing is depending on materials and flex, it is also dependent on the "flex" of the total rig and other gates acting and reacting. It should hover around your findings here, but there WILL be impact from the total structure if there is vibration from the machine itself. Isolation dampers will be your friend if there is trouble long term. Best of luck!
I still believe the MMX was perfect, at least as far as it went, but I can't wait to see where all of this goes. I just hope Martin doesn't spiral into insanity!
YOU ARE: A great musician, designer, builder, story teller, artist, philosoph, data analyst, human
Well said
And trying to become a horrible engineer.
Love this new format Martin. Back to basics.
Hey Martin, glad to see you are still at it. One recommendation I would have is instead of trying to compensate with a delay for the marble seating. I would reconfigure it mechanically to when the solenoid is energized, the marble will drop out of the gate; add a slight hold delay, then disengage the solenoid to allow the marble to drop and seat itself in the gate waiting for the next trigger event. This way you won't need to figure out any debounce time for the marble to be completely seated in the gate.
Your commitment to this project is inspiring!
His dedication is impressive
Yes and no at the same time
@@thelambdafunction why no? Just wondering
@@blastfiendsunite420 Because he did abandon the project.. These experiments are fine, but he's chasing precision that he will immediately loose as soon as one of those gates is mounted on a MM3
He's just in a loop of chasing perfection at the moment
This is no longer a channel about music played by a machine. Its a channel where we watch a man descend into madness.
The second of any 3-movement song is usually sad, or chaos, or something completely different, but just wait for the last movement~ as long as he doesn't give up, he will get there.
i miss the days when it was about music by wintergatan. I would easily trade a complete functioning marble machine for a new album anyday.
@@Oxtorayk New album will be released once the new machine is ready to create it.
He used to make art in the form of RUclips videos. He never realized it but the MMX accomplished the goal everyone else had for it. Watching its development was a joy regardless the outcome. He decided that the art of the video was standing in the way of the engineering of the machine and now the art of gone. We got years of entertainment out of the MMX. He thinks it was a total waste save for the learning experience.
@@osculant as somebody with a similar mindset, I kinda get it. Everybody else is looking at what is, but he's envisioning something much bigger. The problem is getting caught up in what is not... and using dealing with this as an excuse to procrastinate on finishing the main project, which started out simple, and has turned into a grand design so immense and heavy that the mere thought of it adds 10 years to one's lifespan.
I have no doubt that he wants to build something beautiful, but he needs time, help, and the determination to see it through to its finish. I'll be here waiting - I look forward to it, sir Martin - don't give up
Thank you for your animation. It really made my day yet. Another reason why we miss your videos. I’m glad you don’t take yourself too seriously and you show us every time how you want to make this project So much better with hard work. Thanks.
Okay, new shirt design idea: “I believe” still legible but crossed out (struck through), and next to it with a tape decal “I VERIFY”. I’d buy such a shirt! Thank you, Wintergatan for all the laughs and inspiration over the years. You really have influenced my decisions when designing and creating. You have taught me many lessons (especially function over form, dumb design vs. smart design)! Thank you to Wilson, Martin and his whole team at Wintergatan! Y’all are awesome!
- Gears from Texas, USA
I verify such outstanding merch design idea
The progression from dreamer to engineer. I like this!
An unmoderated search for perfection will result in tears and disappointment.
I never imagined I would be completely enraptured by a story being told through animated spreadsheets. Martin takes us to places we never knew we could go.
In Martin's hands even spreadsheets become art.
I just discovered the Marble Machine video this year and im so glad u r continuing the development and improving the design! Listen, whenever u think its ready, there's a whole internet that i think agrees:
We. Want. More. MARBLES! 💜
LOVED storytelling with a spreadsheet. Beautiful! Should be shown at the start of every design course.
One additional thing to keep in mind is the stiffness of the marble gate. It can be seen in some of the footage that the gate prongs that you had tilted forward some to increase accuracy in a previous video, are shaking some when the marble first hits. This settles out during the hold time but a stiff material may also add rebound back into the marble increasing the time it takes to come to a full stop. It's lovely to see you transition to design intent and testing. Keep up the good work!!
Martin is still my most favorite person ever! Not only is he crazy enough to believe in his dreams but he's ready to step onto the biggest stage ever and "verify" the possibilities of that dream. Such an amazing dream, person and Wilson story. I'm a musician and novel writer, and Martin has me beat! Love to you all and to the dream of the Marble Machine. Let's make this a reality.
As a Mechanical Engineer, I appreciate the education these videos provide as well as the inspiration. Well done! 🙂
I love the fact that this is so much more than just building a machine. It is proper engineering, and the scientific method. People can learn more from this than a lot of science courses. Well done, Martin!
You’re mistaken if you think this represents “proper engineering”…nor do you have any concept what the “scientific method” is.
Love the ending 😂 but jokes aside, it is very encouraging to see you armed with clear measurable goals and what I hope is a much firmer grasp of what ‘good enough’ looks like too…
I fear the dream of perfect timing will never be satisfied. At some point... isn't it good ENOUGH? I mean... no human plays in perfect robotic time. some variation can actually add to the feel of a piece in a positive way.
I was always shocked by your machines, such a lot job have been done! Love it
0:35 I can hear dire dire docks slowly fading in. I swear he's about to tell me about half A presses anytime now.
Yes, when a project moves along successfully until it becomes complex enough to impart innaccuracies - then rip it up 'n' start again! I admire your dogged determination to nail this and leave no stone unturned, thank you for sharing, Martin!
There's a critical skill when it comes to engineering. It's knowing what to spend more engineering on or less, and you can only get that skill with experience. I was sometimes frustrated watching your older videos seeing you struggle, but I see your experience is paying off.
The Adventures of Wilson had me genuinely howling with laughter. I'd love to see more of that
Sad.
"a gate opening is a gate opening. You can't say its only a half" - T.J. "Martin" Yoshi
the adventures of Wilson at the end are so sweet
Thus I am an Moniton Designer and Animator myself this Episode is literally pure gold. Chapeau! To adress to constant issue of unwanted motion und vibration, you could simply use weights on the final marble machine. We do it for example when we do photo shoots. The camera tripod might shake by wind and fall, but as soon as you attach a heavy sand bag, you stabilize it by weights and gravity. To say it in simple words: when transporting from one gig to another you just remove additional weights. As soon as the machine needs to be running you make it as heavy as you can to minimize vibration. Keep on the good work: the way ist the goal, but the result needs the path.
feel like the further along this project goes, the longer it takes.
In a good way... or a bad way?
I both like and dislike that fact. I may never see the machine finished but I get to see more videos. The journey matters more than the goal I guess.
At first I thought you were chasing something unachievable, but as your methodology and processes improve, I am beginning to see the potential success. You’re an inspiration, Wintergatan, keep it up!
If Martin enters a marble drop with the gate already primed from the previous song, he can save half a marble drop
A marble drop is a marble drop, you can't say it's only half!
Underrated comment
I said that to myself as soon as I saw that graph of the three parts.
First thing that came to mind - when calculating best hold time, best "time to settle", please consider the vibrations a fully constructed machine will introduce into the mix. Hold time stability may be more "wiggly", it may require more time... but consider the intrinsic movement of a fully constructed Marble Machine 3 and how those intrinsic vibrations as the various mechanisms perform may influence things like "stability".
I almost DIED laughing at the ending!!!! Please more Wilson Excel stories they are amazing!
I LOVED the Wilson movie at the end. I’ve been following you for a long time now and I’m enjoying the journey very much. I love this progression into precision because it helps other people know what it takes to build a complex machine of any kind. Keep up the great work!
Funny how he says he wants a machine that plays music as tight as humans can, while most humans can't even play as tight as his MMX
Im curious how this will work in large scale. These small scale tests are excellent for an individual basis but when put all together in one machine I anticipate unexpected deviations due to combined vibrations or other stuff. I cant wait to see how you handle those challenges
my brother and i used to watch your marble machine updates when he came home from college to catch up and got matching blueprint shirts. Im in college myself now, and was wearing that same shirt yesterday; we've both fallen out of watching regular updates, but i still think about this project whenever i wear it. i still love the design even though the actal blueprint for the machine is everchanging with how much you test and design new elements
Wow. Your engineering skills are equal to your creative ones. The fun, goofy bits do assist the intellectual progress. Again, I am heartened by the beautiful community of makers this has brought together as well!! Your creative uses of technology have helped this project grow wings, and stay in flight.
Waiting for an animator who will remake this masterpiece
That would be epic.
Your logical approach to problem solving is amazing. You're courage to face reality is beyond most peoples' comprehension. Seemingly more and more these are rare talents these days. AWESOME CONTENT!! MM3X+EXCELLENCE will be real!!
I am writing this comment from 2055, he is on to marble machine 42 and posts weekly updates on studying the gravity effect caused by the lunar cycle and how this affects his release timings.
Your marble machines are masterpieces. Even your play at the end with little gear and mean reality man was genius.
What a joy for the world to behold!! God bless all you do!! Don't stop ok!!
Awesome Martin, you are becoming an engineer! Be careful though, if you continue eventually you will learn more and more about less and less until you know everything about nothing.😱
The animation ending is hilarious, even if you kind of expecting it to happen. Good luck! Enjoying it every second. Can't wait for it to become REALITY.
nice work!
Small arduino tip: use another pin other than de 13 (DEFAULT LED) nor 0 and 1... so it does not fire the solenoid each time you upload (and you dont need to empty the mabrles every time)
LOL !!!!!. Probably out of I/Os ?.
I am soooo glad I watched to the end of this video! that last little bit made me laugh a lot. As a mechanical engineer I can personally relate to what you have been going through! Keep up the good work and can't wait to see what you come up with next!
i love the story at the end!!! just wonderful
It is SO great to watch you experimenting mechanics and things and marble systems again ! And seeing you happy to do so is such a relief ! Very enthusiastic for you and MMX2
What if you use a soft material around the cradle for the marble so that it dampens the setting of the marble, allowing it to be more accurate with less time to settle.
Martin, you MADLAD ! I hope you never lose faith in your dream of a perfect marble machine. Your work inspires so many other people who are cheering you on.
I feel like instead of watching the marble machine x get designed over the last few years, I've actually been watching Martins slow descent into madness.
Why not both?
@@abitofabitofabit4404 because as of right now there is no MMX? LoL
I've really enjoyed these breakdowns, the new ones and the building of the Marble Machine X. It's fun to both watch someone build something as well as kinda learn at stuff at the same time, whether it's about music, mechanics/mechanisms (like these videos) or the ones in the building of X about reaching for your goals and such. I really hope you get everything sorted out and you finally achieve your dream and build the MM MK3! Followed you through the X building, I'm rooting for you!
A new article from The Journal of Marble Kinetics! This original research from Wintergatan Labs is fascinating!
Thanks
The little story at the end was genuinely wholesome and uplifting, thanks
One thing that I've actually learned from this guys videos is how to solve problems by looking from every direction. When you have an issue. Figure it out and find every possible way to fix it and see how each one goes. Never settle until you get all the information. Wintergratan you sir have helped me improve not only as an engineer but a person because of the things you show and sometimes teach in your videos and I thank you.
Dude! That's just so amazing! You don't just build cool machines and do interesting tests, but you make a cool storyline plus Willson Excel animation as well! That's just so cool man!
Constant Release Time! This is a HUGE improvement. Solves all the timing problems of the previous machines. VERY interesting how tight attack and release can get and still be accurate (enough). Awesome progress! This is the major question I had. I feel massive satisfaction by proxy with this video. I am very confident now that our hero Wilson will prevail in his epic quest. 🙂
Half of a millisecond is still extremely accurate, don't lose sight of that.
Coming back and catching up on all the MMX[-T] progress after having just entered a beta-soft-release of my first public software project... you may be working with physical stuffs while I work entirely in my own virtual reality, but that little sketch at the end is still all too relatable XD
I recommend calculating standard error. It really helps in telling which data points are statistically identical! Should help clear up that murky area. Love the content, keep up the scientific approach!
Loved the Wilson bit, but...
At which point should we start to worry about your sanity? 😘
I think Martin needs to read the story about the mathematician scientist and engineer and the cake. The moral of the story is important
I have enjoyed your journey. I am a 66 year old designer. I have been fascinated by your adventure. I have learned so much about design that can't be taught except through experience. Your growth has inspired me. I love your journey, please keep informing us, we learn from you and your followers.
lots of comments about the specific design, but what's important here isn't this specific design or the materials, it's that martin is FINALLY learning to isolate and experiment on individual variables rather than chasing design iterations and hoping they work. He's finally starting to think like an engineer -- building discrete components with known tolerances so that when he integrates them together, he will be able to test if they are still in-spec.
of all the inspirational/motivational approaches he usually takes, often driven by his very strong artist brain, this is the first time he seems to be truly thinking about data first
a working machine will be a thing of beauty because it works, not because it looks pretty
hopefully he continues to make progress and doesn't get stuck hyperoptimizing unrealistic values for target variables
I'm no good at maths, graphs, marble bounce times, but I have a friend called Wilson who said that if you make a machine to play music, you must make one to compose it. Imagine teaching it to read your mind ! Love to see that video.
That ending... I've been watching for six years or so... and then the payoff at the very end... I collapsed laughing. Thanks Martin
These last couple of videos have gone a long ways towards reducing my anxiety around this third machine. I'm not quite at "cautiously optimistic" yet but I'm on the way there. Once you move on from the gate to designing the next piece is where we will really see whether this time will be different.
I believe < I verify ----> Now you are on the right track! Transitioning from designer to engineer. You are awesome Martin, keep it up!
You inspire so much martin. Thanks to you i started an apprenticeship of Theoretical engineering, and now im using CAD and machines to realize my own mechanical art dreams
15:27 Oh my, I didn't expect this. Love the message!
I’m so happy you’re still working on this Martin. When I heard the news a few months ago it made me so sad cause I’d been watching you work on this thing since I was in high school. I’m glad you didn’t give up, MM3 will go on world tour!!! Love your work
Loved the little bit of Wintergatan at the end. Reminds me why I came here all those years ago!
The animation...so smooth, a single tear fell from my eye, it was so beautiful.
Kinda magical how the grass is greener on Wilson's side initially... And the sky is brighter. Almost like crossing the border is a bad idea from the get-go. You're right, lots of character development for Wilson here. Like the art of creating itself is more beautiful and magical than engineering a perfect machine. Maybe perfection is the actual Big Baddie?...
"Reality is thing that decides whether the pool ball goes in the pocket" is genuinely the most poetic thing I've heard in a while.
The end really got me hahahaha
timing in 25-50ms hold time is resembling an old marble gate where marbles were dropped immidiatly and we know that this can't possibly be as precise as 500ms hold time is
I had a thought that the overall shaking/movement of the machine is a variable that you’d need to consider with the droppers. Even if you get perfect accuracy with everything while testing doesn’t mean that would be the case when everything is put together. However, I have faith that this marble machine 3 will be much better than the previous two. Good luck!
If you're going to do more of these, you *HAVE to AUTOMATE IT.* You might be able to do this by getting to Arduino to read the output of the microphone or by using a different sensor (like a clapping sensor!), then you can use an SD card module to store the data in a .CSV file (aka a spreadsheet). Then all you have to do is hit "play" and make a graph with the data later. No more manually measuring time between transients!!!!
Basically:
- *Microphone sensor module:* remove its mic and connect contact mic instead. This will let the Arduino know when the marble hits the mic.
- *SD card module:* You can (probably?) create a .CSV file on the card and store measurements in there, then put it on your computer to graph. I believe the Arduino software has an example of how to do this already built-in.
- OR: You can use a different program (like CoolTerm) to log measurements from serial (USB) into a spreadsheet with your computer.
If anyone else has any ideas of how to do this better, please say so! I'm very curious to see what other people come up with.
I hope this helps!!!
If you build the marble gate out if metal than you shoud consider a rubber tip to dampen the loading for tighter music
THANK YOUUUUU!!!!!!!! you are really making this dream feel very realistic with your recent tests!
it's been a rough time for you and the viewers and i'm very thankful for all the videos you made and the great time they gave me over the last years. Thank you!
I think even the first hand built machine sounded fine. Most people are not going to analyze the waveforms to see how tight the music and then be disappointed it’s a few ms off. Once the machine is fully built you will have hundreds of other things affecting the timing it seems you are too focused on, anything you build now will automatically be miles ahead from the first machine. I get building a gate the best you can from the start, but on a running machine will throw many different curve balls than stationary on a desk.
In my opinion it felt like the big challenge from the last machine was handling the marbles getting them through the machine without jamming or escaping. The perfect gate is kind of moot if you can’t first solve reliably feeding marbles to it.