Rant was ON POINT. and it was no rant at all. Many, MANY of us are fuming at the US response. Khan gives hope that there is a bit of sanity left in all this.
@@Jaywrites23technicalities that, as Ben said, they’re more than happy to see cut the other way when the shoe is on the other foot. Hypocrisy disintegrates any claim to want a ‘rules based order’.
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc your comment in the main thread is not anchored in reality. You basically lied and used that lie to in a vague way justify Biden hypocrisy
Agree but special interest groups control both. One starts with A and ends in C. The other is the military industrial complex. Remove money from Politics folks. That should be the next big issue to fight for.
They are not. Ben and the Pod Save bros had their time in power, the Biden peeps were a completely different clique than the Obama's people. Biden himself always had lingering resentment and saltiness about the way that he was treated/ perceived by Obama and his inner circle.
I would argue Netanyahu is far worse than Hamas at this point. 40,000+ civilians is no small thing. Starving a million people is just sick and wrong. The “moral equivalency” argument is just stupid.
I'm trying to understand Israel's point of view. On the one hand any criticism of the decisions of the Israeli government are "anti-Semitism" because the government champions the needs of all Jewish people. But on the other hand the belief that all Jewish people are somehow in accordance with the government of Israel is also anti-Semitism? Gosh, it's almost as if any criticism of Israel gets called anti-Semitic whether it actually is or not.
I try to start with the tenet that anti-Semitism describes what is evidenced dangers/harms done to Jewish people throughout history in different parts of the world (not just in Germany), look at stereotypes and narratives that were used to justify it, and from understanding that history, filtering out the bad faith arguments and legitimate racist beliefs from accountability arguments becomes easier.
THANK YOU, for that succinct and powerful critique of US outrageously hypocritical response to ICC application for arrest warrants including BB &Co.!!!!
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc your position is lying followed by hypocrisy. Israel has a long and proud history of allowing IDF to commit atrocities and holding no one accountable. It also has a long and proud history of being an occupying power and has continued illegal occupation and settlement building in the West Bank and East Jerusalem for decades. The illegality of which is shown under binding security council results on 2334. Israel is also not a democrat, it’s an apartheid state as stated by countless humans rights groups from both inside and outside of Israel.
I agree, unfortunately we are showing astonishing levels of double standards and hypocrisy and while it might work and fool some people domestically, it only makes the west looks worst globally.
Biden's inability to see Israel as a bad actor is heartbreaking. He has my vote, but not my confidence. Thank you Ben for always speaking truth to power.
@@Ronaldinho1996 Biden risks loses a goodly portion of the American youth vote as a price for having hewed too closely to the demands of Netanyahu's administration and the American Israeli lobby.
It's more subtle than that. Israel was for decades a symbol of the regeneration of a victim culture recovering from an immense horror imposed on them. By the time of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982.... the victim's child of rape was torturing neighbourhood cats (and even Reagan called them on it)...now it has a car, unlicensed machine-gun and a cellar full of hostages...pity the victims of their dysfunction
as a Slovakian person (living in austria for the past 15yrs) it makes me so happy and so sad to hear you talk about my country.. i really hope we don't follow the hungarian example.... 😢 (also, i would be trilled to meet you guys one day, big fan of PSA and PSW, following you from afar)
It's almost like a reformed Austria-Hungary into a Danubian federation would have made for a better, more prosperous, and liberal future for all the countries in the region + democracy
Why is Alyona slumming it with you guys??? She has such a wonderful broadcast voice, I could totally see her on a national news station. For our sake, I hope she remains happy right where she is. Oh, and give her a permanent spot at the table. If she wants.
Agree, she is a great journalist but I love listening to policy people . At the end of the day some things she said are more anecdotal. I love the policy expertise though
I hunted down this episode just to leave the same comment. Was blown away listening to her when I was driving to my mom's. BTW Ben's voice doesn't match his hair.
The patently ridiculous situation of giving bombs to Israel and building a pier to provide aid. I guess war is big business when you can supply both sides
A pier the US hasn't even delivered from because it's partners pulled out due to security concerns after the WCK strike (with three US provided guided missiles at that).
Still absolutely shameful to me that the US is not part of the ICC. I think it shows a certain view among our politicians is that America should never be accountable to other nations.
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc You've got to be kidding. Biden has gone on record saying the ICC shouldn't be attempting to hold Israelis to account. Turns out that Biden and Trump aren't that different after all when they don't like what a Court has to say.
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc I don’t really believe that we do have a strong military justice system, or that we are interested in holding the powerful to task. Otherwise Colin Powell and Henry Kissinger wouldn’t have been allowed to walk free any time since Vietnam.
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc Tangential. I never said that I believe Trump wasn't worse, as I in fact do not have a short memory despite your connotation otherwise and I remember that Trump was worse for Palestine and believe he would be worse for Palestine again, and I am voting for Genocide Joe, despite the fact that he is Genocide Joe. Again though, tangential to the point. I believe that America's system is not very interested in holding the rich and powerful to task, that is still the point, and joining the ICC would make doing so easier, so in accordance with my original point, our politicians do not do that.
All due respect, I do not understand why Ben keeps using the verbiage "famine like conditions", it is a full blown famine according to the UN. Does he not trust their assessment? Is that loaded language at this point? I understand the debate around using genocide but at this point where is the controversy surrounding famine?
The guardian is also saying "famine like conditions". It's International Relation speak were everything is sanitized, civilized and remove from all understandable human emotion.
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc well, I don't know about the less known cases but for instance Abu Ghraib prison only low level personell took the blame. And regardless, it's very hypocratical to argue for a rules based world order but to refuse to sign ICC
Ukraine and Russia were not part of the ICC either. The argument whether it's legal is moot as Putin is also wanted by the Hague, and the US and Israel praised the decision. They created the precedent.
The ICC doesn't need precedent, let alone from the US. International law exists whether the US likes it or not, and given that it usually finds itself in the "not" camp, the administration's opinion(or any administration's opinion) on jurisdiction is almost useless by default. The ICC statute spells it out quite clearly though, so the US argument basically amounts to saying that other countries can't establish a court between them, if we don't like it. Add to that the hypocrisy of the US being the most radical when it comes to claiming extraterritorial jurisdiction on a host of other matters, and I can only imagine that the ICC is having a good laugh right now. I imagine that working in the current State Department must be like living in a fever dream.
@SomethingBlonde-oc7scIsrael never has and never will hold themselves to account. They announce investigations that take years, blame someone else in the meantime, then when the spotlight is away from them, they admit they were in the wrong but nobody gets held to account.
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sccan you give a one example of Israeli soldiers being in the court for mistargeting civilian or bigot settler held accountable for burning Palestinian farm or attacking them ??
Thankyou for saying what we all are thinking. Jeffery Sachs did an amazing analysis in a interview of US empirical power recently and its view on war. Highly worth a listen to.
The statement that there's no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas is ludicrous on its face. Hamas committed terrible atrocities on October 7th. Israel has been committing terrible atrocities ever since. Hamas are terrorists. The Israeli government doesn't exactly meet the definition of terrorists, but does anyone think the Palestinian civilians aren't terrorized? One side committed war crimes. In response the other side committed _even more_ war crimes. Not only is there moral equivalence there, anyone claiming there isn't is ignorant, delusional, or lying.
It didn’t start on October 7th, Israel has been oppressing and slaughtering palestinians for decades!! The hamas terrorists were born and raised in an open air prison created by israel. Israel is to blame for what happened on October 7th
Claiming the two are not equivalent is surely stating the obvious, a state should be held to a higher standard than a terror group instead of acting in a manner that results in many times more civilian dead. Having been offered a ceasefire everything that happens after is a choice.
But Hamas is officially the government of Gaza? If the ICC recognizes Gaza as Palestinian territory, they also have to recognize Hamas as a government. Yes, their reelection is illegitimate, but so is Putin’s and numerous other governments.
States should not be expected to surrender just because their enemy asks them to, that's crazy. Also, one should treat all parties to the same standard, you cannot punish a state and let a terrorist action off the hook for committing worse crimes, just because that is expected, that's unjust.
@@magicthegatheringlover4277 a ceasefire is not a surrender and it is the way the invasion has been carried out that is the problem. I can't remember another hostage situation done like this with record casualties among journalists, aid workers and medics and food being denied to the whole population.
@@mrmr446 Hamas has been messing around in negotiations either rejecting proposals or refusing to say what would make a proposal acceptable for months and months. They wait until Israel has already said that a specific deal is unacceptable and accept that one - and now it’s Israel that’s refusing to accept a ceasefire? People become so irrational and selective when it comes to Israel-Palestine. I’m so tired of all of this.
@@analogee6858 what have they been offered before? No seriously realistic offers that I saw but demands known in advance to be unacceptable, but while they were turning them down they chose to continue just as now the other side chooses to carry on.
She is excellent and should be on more often. Give wonderful Tommy more time with his new baby so we can hear her more frequently. A woman’s voice is most welcome!
When a population of isolated and suppressed people are perceived as expendable by a dominant neighboring and controlling nation the obviously suffering population deserves protection by the international community. This issue is complex and tragic on multiple levels but such a bright light is shown on Gaza - especially when no other nation is willing to take on the plight of those in Gaza - outright tragedy is happening and will continue.
11:40 this it is CRAZY to try and interfere with this Bibi Made his bed and for America to try and get him out of it is crazy. morally we should be stopping Bibi not enabling him
Absolutely. I'm struggling to listen to PSA these days except when Tommy speaks up (less forcefully than Ben though). PSW was a bit slow to get going on the accountability front but I'm satisfied with where Ben is at now.
Alyona is a great co-host! I never miss a PSTW episode, one of my favourite podcasts. Sorry PSA, but as a non American it shouldn't be a surprise. (Still watch some PSA)
Why not inviting Alyona more permanently to the table? Even though the couch might be more comfy. She's a great addition and another viewpoint seldom is a bad thing.
Not unusual for a Caliph to hand the power over to his son; that pretty much describes the whole Abbasid dynasty...just in case history counts for something anymore.
To echo the other commenters, we need Alyona as the third cohost! And THANK you for your passionate rants. Thank you for being on the right side of history. What an absolute embarrassment Biden’s policy has been. It’s like they care more about a dictator than they do basic morality, not to mention their American constituents.
Biden deserves to lose at this point. The whole thing's gotten out of control and it's beyond frustrating to see how idiotic everyone is trying to cover for blatant, terrible acts. It's complete disrespect for us, too, as if they're patting the people on the head and telling them they're too stupid to understand the videos they're seeing. That's BS.
Free Assange. Hes a journalist. One of your strongest allie Australia has asked to release him. My advice you need allies. Dont alienate the people of Australia further. US conduct with Isreal is jarring at best.
I think Bb Netanyahu definitely should be investigated and vilified about how he and his regime have conducted this war. But I don’t like how people are vilifying Israel (more specifically the people of Israel). The people of Israel did not ask for this war. So we should be very careful overall on how we should proceed…and tbh I wish everyone would wait until post war analysis before rushing to judgment.
Biden’s beef with the ICC seems to be this: The Court should have waited and allowed Israel, a democracy, with an independent legal system, to investigate and lay charges, if necessary.
Fact. A person of 85 years old is far less likely to be both physically and mentally healthy than the same person at age 81. Fact. Knowing that indisputable truth, no mentally competent responsible 81 year-old would put himself forward as a US Presidential candidate.
An annoying hallmark all the Pod boys share is a tendency toward long rambling questions that the person they're asking has to sit through before they get a chance to speak.. Please show more respect and trust this woman (Alyona Minkovski) to answer without embedding your own opinion in the question. This is why there's such a generic feel to Pod interviews. I value Ben's opinion especially because he has a lot of experience bolstering it, but let the conversation flow. Maybe your guest will have a different take or will veer off in an unexpected and interesting way (if you would just release control) from the track you're laying. I don't even watch PSA anymore because it feels like they've all had the conversations before and are now just performing them. Idk if you read the comments, but if so, I hope you'll consider this comment in the spirit of respectful exchange in which it's offered. ☮
Alyona Minkovski looks so happy. She contemplates the prospect of buying five houses in newly developed settlements in the West Bank, once the genocide has concluded. Additionally, she plans to conduct a podcast on Palestinian history every five years, shedding light on the unfortunate events surrounding the displacement of their land.
Regarding the Gaza pier: Why would the US spend 320 million $ on a pier, when they could've just made (illegal) weapons shipments contingent on sufficient aid being delivered? I'll tell you why: *This is the means and method by which Israel, aided by the US, plans to ethnically cleanse the population* , after the initial plan of pushing them into the Egyptian desert was refused.
@@mvonwalter6927 I think you mean 10 USC 362. And you realize that statutes are promulgated by acts of congress, right? If a subsequent act of congress explicitly authorizes such expenditures, the best the Biden admin can do is make them go back and be more explicit that it's an exception. The admin is slow walking it right now, but it's unlikely they can do it forever. There's a waiver provision in the law itself for "exceptional circumstances" - in layman's terms, anything they want to make an exception for. It's a well-intentioned, but ultimately toothless statute. I say this as someone who does NOT want to see more offensive weapons go to Israel, but knows that describing them as "illegal" is hyperbole and we have enough of that floating around this issue.
Israel is committing genocide, sure. But how is the *pier* specifically a part of that plan? Weapons aren't being shipped on the pier, nothing is coming through the fear but food. Of course we are aiding in this genocide, and the pier is for show. But your assertion that pier construction itself is the *means and method by which genocide will be committed* makes no sense.
Netanyahu isn't the problem. Trump isn't the problem. The problem is their countrymen and countrywomen. The people who voted for them. At least in the US there was the excuse that people couldn't be sure exactly what kind of leader he'd be. But even after that WAS known he received the second highest vote of any US Presidential candidate ever, despite Biden winning. And now he's the official candidate of a major US political party. Netanyahu on the other hand was always known. Before his election he publicly and dramatically called for the assassination of Yitsak Rabin, the then Prime Minister of Israel. He was elected after the assassination took place, and re-elected multiple times since then.
At this point I just cannot vote for Biden and still sleep at night. He is showing his true colors and it seems America is headed down a dark path no matter who is President.
That’s ludicrous. Down the Biden path, you have a democracy, down the Trump path, a fascist dictatorship. As a European, I urge you to vote for Biden. It’s bad enough that so many European countries are sliding towards fascism. If Trump gets elected again, the world will burn.
Suggest you go to Israel and see for yourself before you support the ICC who Israel invited to come and see on the ground see the facts for himself which he cancelled at the last moment and went straight to his recommendations It slows a clear bias and frankly it STINKS
No see the nations electorates think that all force should be attributed to the offending group. And while Isreal has been acting offensive they themselves don't find it as repungent to the challenge of the authority and by proxy the ethical superiority of those servicing officiated states. And they would like to use that pressure as another tool specifically on Hamas. And then they would brush under the rug all of the nations electorates crimes under the rug and create the same scene which caused the would be gods of former kings, queens, presidents, and other leaders to give Jews Isreal because jews aren't safe amongst their own populations. As they know that they have been refusing to change their preview of ethics by holding themselves or each other accountable and allowing others autonomy to grow and learn instead. And now the Isreal is failing it shows that even those who could live amongst all of their nations peacefully, despite the violence put upon them for centuries from the various nations and their other inhabitants. That If you localize them in this nation state organization the incentives will make them just as bad as the would be God kings when attributing violence or justice. As the structures of these states and enforcement policies are flawed from both inception. And as this court shows, their international relations. Hopefully they learn.
I feel like you said something important here, but it came out as stream of consciousness rambling that is severely undermined by hyperbole and lack of punctuation. I want to know what you are saying, concisely. Can you write it in a short paragraph? Are you trying to just say Israel is hypocritical and violent as f*ck, using the false justification of an absolutely necessary facist ethnostate? Succinct, please!!
Chile give up. We see the war crimes. Israel got off easy. It’s interesting that Hamas is charged with sexual violence but we don’t mention the rape of Palestinians. Also this didn’t start October 7th. Israel has been committing war crimes for almost 100 years. They need to be charged for all of it. We are no longer buying the bullsh&t.
Didn't Hamas' leaders visit Moscow a few months before the attack? The attack used hang gliders. An old technology, that hasn't been used in a while, but still works. Does that sound like Hamas to everyone, because to me that sounds a lot more like Russia. I guess we'll probably never know if they were involved.
We have actual videos of the event. It was Hamas. Even if they tech was given by russia it's still hamas. Your subtle suggestion of it "being russia" (whatever that would entail) doesn't change that now *Hamas* and Israel are fighting. Even if Russia is sending Hamas guns *right now* that's like...a red herring. The root of this is the dehumanization and genocide of Palestinians since 1940s. *This* is the final issue, whether Russia is involved or not
War crimes are par for war, with levels obviously. It's not like wars have ever had “rules”. War crimes are an invention POST ww2. This means EVERYONE was engaging in war crimes - they just hadn’t been deemed such yet. If modern war crimes were in existence PRE world war 2 the war would have never ended because there would have been no actions sufficient to inflight enough pain at a low enough cost to bring a side to the bargaining table. Not saying war crimes are bad or good, but pointing out that our obsession of weather a war crime was committed is a red herring, totally distracting from the ultimate goal - to end the war and stop the fighting. It’s not like in the past war was a spectacle of morals and virtuosity and only now atrocious war crimes are committed. War crimes have always been all over the place, just not labeled such until recently.
we ought to try to bear in mind the extent to which the claim of 'genocide' has been weaponized, & the inability to push back against it. there's no reasonable way israel can be accused of having engaged in a genocidal war - though it's absolutely right to describe hamas as having done so. but, when you look at social media, one might believe the opposite is true. that hamas, rather than israel, is the genocidal entity ought to have been trite to push-back on, but instead folks like ben have failed to genuinely do that - choosing instead to platform cranks like mehdi husan, who then play the part of 'reasonable media muslim', despite actively trying to make people dumber & use their position to advance the same anti-israel animus, albeit cloaked behind the 9obviously) false cover of his own claimed primacy of all-around reasonableness
Your argument that war crimes have always occurred so we shouldn't focus on them is 100% a conservative talking point, i.e. "this is how things have always been and we're fine". And to imply that war crimes are necessary to end a war quickly is just psychotic. And you're "not saying that war crimes are BAD or good"? I don't think it's difficult for anyone to say that war crimes are unequivocally bad. I honestly don't understand the argument against making individuals (through the ICC) and states (through the ICJ) more accountable for the atrocities they commit. It may be slow and difficult, but fighting for accountability is a crucial element of ending wars and more so PREVENTING future wars. The purpose of accountability for war crimes is not to ensure we have lots of nice, clean wars; it's to prevent wars from occurring in the first place because the price is too high. Issuing arrest warrants for Israeli leaders is sadly not going to stop the suffering of Palestinians, but it will warn other western leaders that international institutions will not just sit back and let them do whatever they want.
@@alexk8599try considering the argument through two connected frames: the extent to which prosecutions can be held to be 'political' the extent to which prosecutions can be weaponized
While I agree with your Hobbsian take - the world of international law is generally a pressure point for the spectators more than the belligerents. For example sanctions on Iran do more to foul up EU trade and banking more than directly impact Iran. So to will an ICC injunction tie the hands of Bibi's enablers in states that fall under their jurisdiction.
Imagine if the ICC indited Osama Bin Laden and George Bush at the same time. We would have been pretty angry that they were implying they were each "just as bad". True, they both committed war crimes, but one intentionally attacked civilians for no purpose and one authorized strikes that may have been beyond the pale. Saying terrorists are the same as people prosecuting an arguably just war lets terrorists off the hook. Rather they should have prosecuted Sinwar first, and then later prosecute Netanyahu to send the message that he is bad, but not as bad.
Yeah. Because that's the norm in criminal prosecutions. You only prosecute the less bad criminals after the prosecution of the worst one is over. That's why Donald Trump is being prosecuted before members of the the January 6 mob. Oh hang on, wait a minute ...
Osama and Bush were just as bad and they should have absulutely indicted them both. Don't assume every citizen is a centrist like you. Some of us are leftists and progressives and don't share your views of those people are just terrorists. Sinwar and Netanyahu cold share a cell, even. Or the dog crates they've been holding hostages in. We disagree. Don't assume your perspective is objective or shared.
I do think that even though the whole “we don’t have to talk about how bad Hamas or Iran are because we all know, but let’s go into how wretched Bibi is in great detail” has worn incredibly thin
@@nathangraham2952the corbyn movement in the uk seems to me to have demonstrated the folly of ben's approach, where attempting to talk around antisemitism merely further legitimizes it among the group
@@millrace32 Ben's jewish. He's not "talking around anti semitism", he just doesn't share you view of the situation. Not everybody who disagrees with you is misguided. Somebody isn't "not being serious" just because they don't agree with you. Your perspective is not the arbiter of global reality. The era of Israel's era their western golden shield is coming to end. Doesn't matter what anyone thinks about it, it's a international reality. The story is changing, the perception is changing. It is what it is.
Rant was ON POINT. and it was no rant at all. Many, MANY of us are fuming at the US response. Khan gives hope that there is a bit of sanity left in all this.
Thank you for calling out the hypocrisy… I feel like I’m going insane listening to the moral backflips trying to justify civilian slaughter
@SomethingBlonde-oc7scjoke comment!?
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc if you’re arguing over technicalities, you’ve already lost the argument.
@@Jaywrites23technicalities that, as Ben said, they’re more than happy to see cut the other way when the shoe is on the other foot. Hypocrisy disintegrates any claim to want a ‘rules based order’.
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc your comment in the main thread is not anchored in reality. You basically lied and used that lie to in a vague way justify Biden hypocrisy
Something dumb blonde.@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc
As always I hope the Biden administration and the members of Congress are listening to you.
Agree but special interest groups control both. One starts with A and ends in C. The other is the military industrial complex. Remove money from Politics folks. That should be the next big issue to fight for.
They are not. Ben and the Pod Save bros had their time in power, the Biden peeps were a completely different clique than the Obama's people. Biden himself always had lingering resentment and saltiness about the way that he was treated/ perceived by Obama and his inner circle.
Excellent next-level-U.S.-hypocrisy rant Ben.
I would argue Netanyahu is far worse than Hamas at this point. 40,000+ civilians is no small thing. Starving a million people is just sick and wrong. The “moral equivalency” argument is just stupid.
Speaking purely as an audio engineer, Alyona Minkovski has a really good podcasting/radio voice.
An excellent communicator.
Absolutely love Alyona on the pod! Take your time, Tommy 😅
If PSA has three hosts, can't see why PSW couldn't have three hosts. Ben, Tommy and Alyona as the regular lineup would be awesome.
I came down to the comments to say the exact same thing!
I'm trying to understand Israel's point of view. On the one hand any criticism of the decisions of the Israeli government are "anti-Semitism" because the government champions the needs of all Jewish people. But on the other hand the belief that all Jewish people are somehow in accordance with the government of Israel is also anti-Semitism? Gosh, it's almost as if any criticism of Israel gets called anti-Semitic whether it actually is or not.
try harder
I try to start with the tenet that anti-Semitism describes what is evidenced dangers/harms done to Jewish people throughout history in different parts of the world (not just in Germany), look at stereotypes and narratives that were used to justify it, and from understanding that history, filtering out the bad faith arguments and legitimate racist beliefs from accountability arguments becomes easier.
THANK YOU, for that succinct and powerful critique of US outrageously hypocritical response to ICC application for arrest warrants including BB &Co.!!!!
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc Isreal investigations are sham. Set up to protect itself. Supported by many decades of evidence.
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc your position is lying followed by hypocrisy. Israel has a long and proud history of allowing IDF to commit atrocities and holding no one accountable. It also has a long and proud history of being an occupying power and has continued illegal occupation and settlement building in the West Bank and East Jerusalem for decades. The illegality of which is shown under binding security council results on 2334. Israel is also not a democrat, it’s an apartheid state as stated by countless humans rights groups from both inside and outside of Israel.
I agree, unfortunately we are showing astonishing levels of double standards and hypocrisy and while it might work and fool some people domestically, it only makes the west looks worst globally.
Love you Ben
And love your rant, on behalf of all of us
Tommy, no offence, I love you, hope you know that. But your family needs you right now. And Alyona should do this for a lot more episodes. Great job!
Biden's inability to see Israel as a bad actor is heartbreaking. He has my vote, but not my confidence. Thank you Ben for always speaking truth to power.
I do think he gets it, he’s just scared of the backlash from his donors and losing the Jewish vote.
@@Ronaldinho1996 Biden risks loses a goodly portion of the American youth vote as a price for having hewed too closely to the demands of Netanyahu's administration and the American Israeli lobby.
What comes out of Biden's mouth are lies, not delusions. He's old, not senile.
He’s lost my vote and it’s not a knee jerk decision or something I’ve come to lightly. I just cannot vote for Biden.
It's more subtle than that. Israel was for decades a symbol of the regeneration of a victim culture recovering from an immense horror imposed on them. By the time of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982.... the victim's child of rape was torturing neighbourhood cats (and even Reagan called them on it)...now it has a car, unlicensed machine-gun and a cellar full of hostages...pity the victims of their dysfunction
as a Slovakian person (living in austria for the past 15yrs) it makes me so happy and so sad to hear you talk about my country.. i really hope we don't follow the hungarian example.... 😢 (also, i would be trilled to meet you guys one day, big fan of PSA and PSW, following you from afar)
It's almost like a reformed Austria-Hungary into a Danubian federation would have made for a better, more prosperous, and liberal future for all the countries in the region + democracy
I would absolutely love to hear Alonya on a more regular world news segment she's fantastic.
Why is Alyona slumming it with you guys??? She has such a wonderful broadcast voice, I could totally see her on a national news station. For our sake, I hope she remains happy right where she is. Oh, and give her a permanent spot at the table. If she wants.
Agree, she is a great journalist but I love listening to policy people . At the end of the day some things she said are more anecdotal. I love the policy expertise though
@@sat_1815 Anecdotes that relate help paint the picture.
I hunted down this episode just to leave the same comment. Was blown away listening to her when I was driving to my mom's. BTW Ben's voice doesn't match his hair.
Another solid episode. And I love that Ben does these shows with a bird on his head.
Glad I'm not the only one to recognize this - lol.
Haha!!
I pointed it out to them months ago..😂 I guess he likes it.😅
The patently ridiculous situation of giving bombs to Israel and building a pier to provide aid. I guess war is big business when you can supply both sides
A pier the US hasn't even delivered from because it's partners pulled out due to security concerns after the WCK strike (with three US provided guided missiles at that).
Still absolutely shameful to me that the US is not part of the ICC. I think it shows a certain view among our politicians is that America should never be accountable to other nations.
Ya think?! Biden is a hard-core American Exceptionalist. World beware.
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc You've got to be kidding. Biden has gone on record saying the ICC shouldn't be attempting to hold Israelis to account. Turns out that Biden and Trump aren't that different after all when they don't like what a Court has to say.
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc I don’t really believe that we do have a strong military justice system, or that we are interested in holding the powerful to task. Otherwise Colin Powell and Henry Kissinger wouldn’t have been allowed to walk free any time since Vietnam.
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc Tangential. I never said that I believe Trump wasn't worse, as I in fact do not have a short memory despite your connotation otherwise and I remember that Trump was worse for Palestine and believe he would be worse for Palestine again, and I am voting for Genocide Joe, despite the fact that he is Genocide Joe. Again though, tangential to the point. I believe that America's system is not very interested in holding the rich and powerful to task, that is still the point, and joining the ICC would make doing so easier, so in accordance with my original point, our politicians do not do that.
Our last president is officially a felon. Yea lets fill the ICC like we filled the SCOTUS, you guys are brilliant!
"rules based international order" - yet the US signed into a law the "invade the Haague act". Things don't add up
All due respect, I do not understand why Ben keeps using the verbiage "famine like conditions", it is a full blown famine according to the UN. Does he not trust their assessment? Is that loaded language at this point? I understand the debate around using genocide but at this point where is the controversy surrounding famine?
The guardian is also saying "famine like conditions". It's International Relation speak were everything is sanitized, civilized and remove from all understandable human emotion.
Strong and very respectable position by Ben. Has always been deeply hypocratic that US is not part of ICC. Love
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc well, I don't know about the less known cases but for instance Abu Ghraib prison only low level personell took the blame. And regardless, it's very hypocratical to argue for a rules based world order but to refuse to sign ICC
Please have Alyona on more often.
So grateful also for the detailed report on what Gaza citizens are dealing with re supplies and blockades!!
Ukraine and Russia were not part of the ICC either. The argument whether it's legal is moot as Putin is also wanted by the Hague, and the US and Israel praised the decision.
They created the precedent.
The ICC doesn't need precedent, let alone from the US. International law exists whether the US likes it or not, and given that it usually finds itself in the "not" camp, the administration's opinion(or any administration's opinion) on jurisdiction is almost useless by default. The ICC statute spells it out quite clearly though, so the US argument basically amounts to saying that other countries can't establish a court between them, if we don't like it. Add to that the hypocrisy of the US being the most radical when it comes to claiming extraterritorial jurisdiction on a host of other matters, and I can only imagine that the ICC is having a good laugh right now.
I imagine that working in the current State Department must be like living in a fever dream.
@SomethingBlonde-oc7scIsrael never has and never will hold themselves to account. They announce investigations that take years, blame someone else in the meantime, then when the spotlight is away from them, they admit they were in the wrong but nobody gets held to account.
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sccan you give a one example of Israeli soldiers being in the court for mistargeting civilian or bigot settler held accountable for burning Palestinian farm or attacking them ??
Excellent episode. Producer a great contribution/perspective. I would like to hear more in the future
Thankyou for saying what we all are thinking. Jeffery Sachs did an amazing analysis in a interview of US empirical power recently and its view on war. Highly worth a listen to.
The statement that there's no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas is ludicrous on its face. Hamas committed terrible atrocities on October 7th. Israel has been committing terrible atrocities ever since. Hamas are terrorists. The Israeli government doesn't exactly meet the definition of terrorists, but does anyone think the Palestinian civilians aren't terrorized? One side committed war crimes. In response the other side committed _even more_ war crimes. Not only is there moral equivalence there, anyone claiming there isn't is ignorant, delusional, or lying.
perfectly said
It didn’t start on October 7th, Israel has been oppressing and slaughtering palestinians for decades!!
The hamas terrorists were born and raised in an open air prison created by israel. Israel is to blame for what happened on October 7th
Her voice is so soothing
Ben quickly becoming the only pod save bro I can stand to listen to anymore
The Tamara Chergoleishvili interview is excellent, thank you!
Alyona, you did great! :) I hope we see you on the Pod more often!
More Alyona with Ben - they are great together. LE
In addition to expertise and experience, Alyona's voice is also ah-mazing for audio
Claiming the two are not equivalent is surely stating the obvious, a state should be held to a higher standard than a terror group instead of acting in a manner that results in many times more civilian dead. Having been offered a ceasefire everything that happens after is a choice.
But Hamas is officially the government of Gaza? If the ICC recognizes Gaza as Palestinian territory, they also have to recognize Hamas as a government. Yes, their reelection is illegitimate, but so is Putin’s and numerous other governments.
States should not be expected to surrender just because their enemy asks them to, that's crazy. Also, one should treat all parties to the same standard, you cannot punish a state and let a terrorist action off the hook for committing worse crimes, just because that is expected, that's unjust.
@@magicthegatheringlover4277 a ceasefire is not a surrender and it is the way the invasion has been carried out that is the problem. I can't remember another hostage situation done like this with record casualties among journalists, aid workers and medics and food being denied to the whole population.
@@mrmr446 Hamas has been messing around in negotiations either rejecting proposals or refusing to say what would make a proposal acceptable for months and months. They wait until Israel has already said that a specific deal is unacceptable and accept that one - and now it’s Israel that’s refusing to accept a ceasefire?
People become so irrational and selective when it comes to Israel-Palestine. I’m so tired of all of this.
@@analogee6858 what have they been offered before? No seriously realistic offers that I saw but demands known in advance to be unacceptable, but while they were turning them down they chose to continue just as now the other side chooses to carry on.
Loved Alyona Minkovski! Do repeat!
great to see alyona on!
She is excellent and should be on more often. Give wonderful Tommy more time with his new baby so we can hear her more frequently. A woman’s voice is most welcome!
Ben, I wish you were on the NSC right now to talk some sense
More Alyona!!
When a population of isolated and suppressed people are perceived as expendable by a dominant neighboring and controlling nation the obviously suffering population deserves protection by the international community. This issue is complex and tragic on multiple levels but such a bright light is shown on Gaza - especially when no other nation is willing to take on the plight of those in Gaza - outright tragedy is happening and will continue.
11:40 this it is CRAZY to try and interfere with this Bibi Made his bed and for America to try and get him out of it is crazy. morally we should be stopping Bibi not enabling him
The answer to the thumbnail question is yes.
Alyona was a good host. Consider having her on more often.
Host who is going to buy house in West Bank settlement after mass killings.
Ben's level of honesty is desperately needed on PSA. Its so difficult to listen to them glaze Biden and not hold him accountable on this issue
Absolutely. I'm struggling to listen to PSA these days except when Tommy speaks up (less forcefully than Ben though). PSW was a bit slow to get going on the accountability front but I'm satisfied with where Ben is at now.
I feel like you’ve not been listening carefully.
@@naylas3908 it shouldn't require carefully listening. We should be able to hear their dissent with earplugs in.
I vote more Alyona!!
I enjoyed listening to the information and discussion.
Late but Alyona was fantastic! Evidently a great producer but I’m mad we haven’t gotten to enjoy her insights on the mic. She should cohost more often
Wow! It is so cool to have Alyona on the show! Had no idea she is the producer and that she is Irina Rodnina’s daughter ❤❤❤
I remember that figure skating pair - Irina Rodnina and Alexander Zaitsev.
Alyona is a great co-host! I never miss a PSTW episode, one of my favourite podcasts. Sorry PSA, but as a non American it shouldn't be a surprise. (Still watch some PSA)
Israel coughs, America trembles... Nethanyahu says "Jump", America asks "How high?"
Great podcast as always
Thank you.
Why not inviting Alyona more permanently to the table? Even though the couch might be more comfy. She's a great addition and another viewpoint seldom is a bad thing.
Thanks
Not unusual for a Caliph to hand the power over to his son; that pretty much describes the whole Abbasid dynasty...just in case history counts for something anymore.
Thank you
I was waiting on this one!
Alyona Minkovski; AKA Pod Save the Queen! 😎
To echo the other commenters, we need Alyona as the third cohost! And THANK you for your passionate rants. Thank you for being on the right side of history. What an absolute embarrassment Biden’s policy has been. It’s like they care more about a dictator than they do basic morality, not to mention their American constituents.
Awesome show guys, please bring her back many times. (Sorry, can’t remember her name🤦♂️)
OH MY GOD!!! SD was just references in news outside SD and it wasn't the new worst thing this state has done or exported! (Staring daggers at K.Noem.)
I doubt anyone is saying the ICC doesn't have jurisdiction over non signatories.
Biden deserves to lose at this point. The whole thing's gotten out of control and it's beyond frustrating to see how idiotic everyone is trying to cover for blatant, terrible acts. It's complete disrespect for us, too, as if they're patting the people on the head and telling them they're too stupid to understand the videos they're seeing. That's BS.
*Dave smith for a third party election*
I'm glad I stayed for Ben singing Right Here Right Now by Jesus Jones. That's the Wednesday I needed.
Free Assange. Hes a journalist. One of your strongest allie Australia has asked to release him. My advice you need allies. Dont alienate the people of Australia further. US conduct with Isreal is jarring at best.
With coordinates being supplied by Pine G. A war most Australians want nothing to do with.
Diapers and baby formula are hard to find in Gaza, leaving parents desperate
Great show: but I have to say Ben doing the ads always cracks me up. Sorry Ben.
your are diomond ben.
I think Bb Netanyahu definitely should be investigated and vilified about how he and his regime have conducted this war. But I don’t like how people are vilifying Israel (more specifically the people of Israel). The people of Israel did not ask for this war. So we should be very careful overall on how we should proceed…and tbh I wish everyone would wait until post war analysis before rushing to judgment.
Netanyahu action remain popular in Isreal. If a society has no left. Only a right, extreme right and ultra right. One needs to question why.
Yes.
I totally agree .
with you
Assange was not just acting as a journalist, he was also acting as a Russian agent. The former was fine but not the latter.
Biden’s beef with the ICC
seems to be this: The Court should have waited and allowed Israel, a democracy, with an independent legal system, to investigate and lay charges, if necessary.
In other words, wait for Israel to investigate itself and find Israel not guilty of war crimes.
It's simpler than that. The Court is saying something Biden doesn't want it to.
@@ladymercury05100%
What a stupid, reaction seeking title! Of course they did! They've committed horrible atrocities!
Did Alyona really imply that a person could not be 85 and healthy? I am tired of uninformed ageism.
Fact. A person of 85 years old is far less likely to be both physically and mentally healthy than the same person at age 81. Fact. Knowing that indisputable truth, no mentally competent responsible 81 year-old would put himself forward as a US Presidential candidate.
God will take care of this mess
Blink should have played Rock the Casbah or if he wants to stick with Neil 4 Dead in Ohio
Very anti semetic to point out Israel when the US led coalition was accused of the same crimes in Syria, Iraq and north eastern Afghanistan
Let alone Yemen
An annoying hallmark all the Pod boys share is a tendency toward long rambling questions that the person they're asking has to sit through before they get a chance to speak.. Please show more respect and trust this woman (Alyona Minkovski) to answer without embedding your own opinion in the question. This is why there's such a generic feel to Pod interviews. I value Ben's opinion especially because he has a lot of experience bolstering it, but let the conversation flow. Maybe your guest will have a different take or will veer off in an unexpected and interesting way (if you would just release control) from the track you're laying. I don't even watch PSA anymore because it feels like they've all had the conversations before and are now just performing them. Idk if you read the comments, but if so, I hope you'll consider this comment in the spirit of respectful exchange in which it's offered. ☮
Alyona Minkovski looks so happy. She contemplates the prospect of buying five houses in newly developed settlements in the West Bank, once the genocide has concluded. Additionally, she plans to conduct a podcast on Palestinian history every five years, shedding light on the unfortunate events surrounding the displacement of their land.
Regarding the Gaza pier:
Why would the US spend 320 million $ on a pier, when they could've just made (illegal) weapons shipments contingent on sufficient aid being delivered?
I'll tell you why: *This is the means and method by which Israel, aided by the US, plans to ethnically cleanse the population* , after the initial plan of pushing them into the Egyptian desert was refused.
What makes the weapons shipment “illegal?”
It’s literally authorized by Congress and there is no international law prohibiting it.
@@analogee6858 10 U.S. Code § 2249e, aka The Leahy Law.
@@mvonwalter6927 I think you mean 10 USC 362. And you realize that statutes are promulgated by acts of congress, right? If a subsequent act of congress explicitly authorizes such expenditures, the best the Biden admin can do is make them go back and be more explicit that it's an exception. The admin is slow walking it right now, but it's unlikely they can do it forever. There's a waiver provision in the law itself for "exceptional circumstances" - in layman's terms, anything they want to make an exception for. It's a well-intentioned, but ultimately toothless statute.
I say this as someone who does NOT want to see more offensive weapons go to Israel, but knows that describing them as "illegal" is hyperbole and we have enough of that floating around this issue.
Israel is committing genocide, sure. But how is the *pier* specifically a part of that plan? Weapons aren't being shipped on the pier, nothing is coming through the fear but food. Of course we are aiding in this genocide, and the pier is for show. But your assertion that pier construction itself is the *means and method by which genocide will be committed* makes no sense.
Neil Young is Canadian.🇨🇦
15:01 cut
Netanyahu isn't the problem. Trump isn't the problem. The problem is their countrymen and countrywomen. The people who voted for them.
At least in the US there was the excuse that people couldn't be sure exactly what kind of leader he'd be. But even after that WAS known he received the second highest vote of any US Presidential candidate ever, despite Biden winning. And now he's the official candidate of a major US political party.
Netanyahu on the other hand was always known. Before his election he publicly and dramatically called for the assassination of Yitsak Rabin, the then Prime Minister of Israel. He was elected after the assassination took place, and re-elected multiple times since then.
@2:41 Ben has a cool head dress
Neil Young is Canadian 😊
Absofuckenlutely!!!!!
At this point I just cannot vote for Biden and still sleep at night. He is showing his true colors and it seems America is headed down a dark path no matter who is President.
That’s ludicrous. Down the Biden path, you have a democracy, down the Trump path, a fascist dictatorship. As a European, I urge you to vote for Biden. It’s bad enough that so many European countries are sliding towards fascism. If Trump gets elected again, the world will burn.
Suggest you go to Israel and see for yourself before you support the ICC who Israel invited to come and see on the ground see the facts for himself which he cancelled at the last moment and went straight to his recommendations It slows a clear bias and frankly it STINKS
@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc oh yes! Thank you for reminding me!🥲
Cause i had completely forgotton that israels info campaign is domestic🥸🤡🙈
Hi!
No see the nations electorates think that all force should be attributed to the offending group. And while Isreal has been acting offensive they themselves don't find it as repungent to the challenge of the authority and by proxy the ethical superiority of those servicing officiated states. And they would like to use that pressure as another tool specifically on Hamas. And then they would brush under the rug all of the nations electorates crimes under the rug and create the same scene which caused the would be gods of former kings, queens, presidents, and other leaders to give Jews Isreal because jews aren't safe amongst their own populations. As they know that they have been refusing to change their preview of ethics by holding themselves or each other accountable and allowing others autonomy to grow and learn instead. And now the Isreal is failing it shows that even those who could live amongst all of their nations peacefully, despite the violence put upon them for centuries from the various nations and their other inhabitants. That If you localize them in this nation state organization the incentives will make them just as bad as the would be God kings when attributing violence or justice. As the structures of these states and enforcement policies are flawed from both inception. And as this court shows, their international relations. Hopefully they learn.
I feel like you said something important here, but it came out as stream of consciousness rambling that is severely undermined by hyperbole and lack of punctuation. I want to know what you are saying, concisely. Can you write it in a short paragraph? Are you trying to just say Israel is hypocritical and violent as f*ck, using the false justification of an absolutely necessary facist ethnostate? Succinct, please!!
Gaza is a mess, Israel has done a poor job pursuing Hamas, but taking information as given from UNWRA doesn't support much of a factual argument.
Chile give up. We see the war crimes. Israel got off easy. It’s interesting that Hamas is charged with sexual violence but we don’t mention the rape of Palestinians. Also this didn’t start October 7th. Israel has been committing war crimes for almost 100 years. They need to be charged for all of it. We are no longer buying the bullsh&t.
UNWRA is fine.
Ben, aren't you the guy they called Hamas at the Obama white house? You seem like the kind of guy who thinks Sinwar didn't do anything wrong.
Are you dumb
Alyona has that NPR voice. Boot Tommy, keep Alyona!
Why not have both?
Didn't Hamas' leaders visit Moscow a few months before the attack? The attack used hang gliders. An old technology, that hasn't been used in a while, but still works. Does that sound like Hamas to everyone, because to me that sounds a lot more like Russia. I guess we'll probably never know if they were involved.
The PLFP used hang gliders in the 80s
We have actual videos of the event. It was Hamas. Even if they tech was given by russia it's still hamas. Your subtle suggestion of it "being russia" (whatever that would entail) doesn't change that now *Hamas* and Israel are fighting. Even if Russia is sending Hamas guns *right now* that's like...a red herring. The root of this is the dehumanization and genocide of Palestinians since 1940s. *This* is the final issue, whether Russia is involved or not
War crimes are par for war, with levels obviously. It's not like wars have ever had “rules”. War crimes are an invention POST ww2. This means EVERYONE was engaging in war crimes - they just hadn’t been deemed such yet.
If modern war crimes were in existence PRE world war 2 the war would have never ended because there would have been no actions sufficient to inflight enough pain at a low enough cost to bring a side to the bargaining table.
Not saying war crimes are bad or good, but pointing out that our obsession of weather a war crime was committed is a red herring, totally distracting from the ultimate goal - to end the war and stop the fighting. It’s not like in the past war was a spectacle of morals and virtuosity and only now atrocious war crimes are committed. War crimes have always been all over the place, just not labeled such until recently.
we ought to try to bear in mind the extent to which the claim of 'genocide' has been weaponized, & the inability to push back against it. there's no reasonable way israel can be accused of having engaged in a genocidal war - though it's absolutely right to describe hamas as having done so. but, when you look at social media, one might believe the opposite is true. that hamas, rather than israel, is the genocidal entity ought to have been trite to push-back on, but instead folks like ben have failed to genuinely do that - choosing instead to platform cranks like mehdi husan, who then play the part of 'reasonable media muslim', despite actively trying to make people dumber & use their position to advance the same anti-israel animus, albeit cloaked behind the 9obviously) false cover of his own claimed primacy of all-around reasonableness
Your argument that war crimes have always occurred so we shouldn't focus on them is 100% a conservative talking point, i.e. "this is how things have always been and we're fine". And to imply that war crimes are necessary to end a war quickly is just psychotic. And you're "not saying that war crimes are BAD or good"? I don't think it's difficult for anyone to say that war crimes are unequivocally bad.
I honestly don't understand the argument against making individuals (through the ICC) and states (through the ICJ) more accountable for the atrocities they commit. It may be slow and difficult, but fighting for accountability is a crucial element of ending wars and more so PREVENTING future wars. The purpose of accountability for war crimes is not to ensure we have lots of nice, clean wars; it's to prevent wars from occurring in the first place because the price is too high. Issuing arrest warrants for Israeli leaders is sadly not going to stop the suffering of Palestinians, but it will warn other western leaders that international institutions will not just sit back and let them do whatever they want.
@@alexk8599try considering the argument through two connected frames:
the extent to which prosecutions can be held to be 'political'
the extent to which prosecutions can be weaponized
While I agree with your Hobbsian take - the world of international law is generally a pressure point for the spectators more than the belligerents. For example sanctions on Iran do more to foul up EU trade and banking more than directly impact Iran. So to will an ICC injunction tie the hands of Bibi's enablers in states that fall under their jurisdiction.
@@mvonwalter6927 "bibi's enablers"
Imagine if the ICC indited Osama Bin Laden and George Bush at the same time. We would have been pretty angry that they were implying they were each "just as bad". True, they both committed war crimes, but one intentionally attacked civilians for no purpose and one authorized strikes that may have been beyond the pale. Saying terrorists are the same as people prosecuting an arguably just war lets terrorists off the hook. Rather they should have prosecuted Sinwar first, and then later prosecute Netanyahu to send the message that he is bad, but not as bad.
Yeah. Because that's the norm in criminal prosecutions. You only prosecute the less bad criminals after the prosecution of the worst one is over. That's why Donald Trump is being prosecuted before members of the the January 6 mob. Oh hang on, wait a minute ...
George W. Bush was far worse, who willfully lied so he could murder civilians whose government had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.
Just as Israel is infitely worse than Hamas. 20,000+ vs 36 children murdered.
Osama and Bush were just as bad and they should have absulutely indicted them both. Don't assume every citizen is a centrist like you. Some of us are leftists and progressives and don't share your views of those people are just terrorists. Sinwar and Netanyahu cold share a cell, even. Or the dog crates they've been holding hostages in. We disagree. Don't assume your perspective is objective or shared.
When did slaughtering tens of thousands of women, children and babies, and starving those that remain become “arguably just”?
ben needs to ask himself whether his distaste for bibi has destroyed his ability to comment on the conflict in a serious way
I do think that even though the whole “we don’t have to talk about how bad Hamas or Iran are because we all know, but let’s go into how wretched Bibi is in great detail” has worn incredibly thin
@@nathangraham2952the corbyn movement in the uk seems to me to have demonstrated the folly of ben's approach, where attempting to talk around antisemitism merely further legitimizes it among the group
@@millrace32 Ben's jewish. He's not "talking around anti semitism", he just doesn't share you view of the situation. Not everybody who disagrees with you is misguided. Somebody isn't "not being serious" just because they don't agree with you. Your perspective is not the arbiter of global reality. The era of Israel's era their western golden shield is coming to end. Doesn't matter what anyone thinks about it, it's a international reality. The story is changing, the perception is changing. It is what it is.