Our experience with 18x lima / common shovelnose catfish: Sorubim lima or elongatus or both?
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- Опубликовано: 19 окт 2020
- Here is a small write-up I made on lima shovelnose (LSN) or Sorubim lima/elongatus.
Most important: lima maxes out at 2 feet, elongatus at 1 foot. All Sorubim for sale are labeled common or lima shovelnose, never elongatus.
I used to think the vast majority of LSN sold in the US were the smaller-growing elongatus because I had almost never seen a LSN over 1’ in person. Mine never grew beyond 11", which made me assume they were elongatus, but now I know I had not kept them long enough. I had seen only several photos of US-kept 18”-24” LSN (e.g., www.monsterfishkeepers.com/fo.... Our European peers say they see 2' LSN more often than we do in the US, but now I think this is because they are in general better, more mature keepers and keep their fish more successfully and longer.
Out of my latest batch of 18 LSN bought at 3” in 2015, today, 5 years later, half grew to 18”-20” while half is still at 12”-14”. This leads me to assume the larger are S. lima & the smaller S. elongatus & to withdraw my initial supposition that mostly elongatus is offered in the US.
It is hard to tell lima vs elongatus for laymen; here is my attempt at ID back in 2010: www.planetcatfish.com/forum/vi... Next thread describes our LSN experience with photos & videos & a relevant excerpt from the most recent genus revision, which states the ID key is the position of the chin barbels vs gular apex: www.monsterfishkeepers.com/fo...
The Planet Catfish entry for elongatus www.planetcatfish.com/common/s... offers kind of a soft ID: "Very generally, Sorubim with spots are usually S. elongatus. They are more of a black water species and, as with most such species, tend towards more variable, spotted patterning."
The info on SeriouslyFish www.seriouslyfish.com/species/... is well written & arranged. The notes say: "(S. lima is) Distinguished from S. elongatus by having modally 9 pectoral rays; 21 anal-fin rays; 16 gill rakers..." The page does not state the counts for elongatus anywhere. Neither have I found a species page for S. elongatus. Unless I am missing something, I find this odd & not as helpful as it could have been otherwise. All other pointers refer to things that are subjective. Nevertheless, I enjoyed reading the page & learned a lot.
These ambush predators head stand with minimal motion ~vertically among vegetation & debris mimicking a twig or plant & wait for a prey. Young fish like the kin’s company & often would head stand together, tightly aligned, like mine did half the time when they were 6"-10”. Adults largely lose the gregarious trait.
LSN need not live feeder fish. They are smaller predators that snatch smaller fish, crustaceans, & insects in the wild, anything that fits in their collapsible mouth, which is relatively & surprisingly big for their slender body structure. I always feed mine pellet & frozen - small whole fish, cut fish, raw, crust-on shrimp, etc. all presoaked in VitaChem. They can do very well on pellet. My last batch started on cut fish but with time took to pellets (offered to tank mates) all by themselves & have been taking 50% or more pellets while thriving and & growing well. If I recall correctly Necrocanis of MFK reported his specimen doing exceptionally well on pellets too. When very small, mine like freeze-dried & fresh bloodworms, plankton (mini-shrimp-like creatures), etc. LSN growth is not fast, perhaps 6"-7" in one year starting from ~3".
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Those striped cats just steal the show. When you empty out one of the 5,000 gallons and move those giants to the 10,000..maybe put the tigrinus in there? I'm sort of into the fastwater fish thing now..I just like seeing tropical waters move and fish tailing hard ( must be good exercise) and others like Gara just getting as much into the flow as fast as it gets. You have quite a few fast water- near rapids really fish for that kind of setup. Add your vortex set ups to shoot oxygen levels high,and what a fun huge tank that is.
Yeah Stan you are getting into fast water now :) who's gonna pay the electric? It's already at $1500 a month haha... I built that 1800 gal with the 8 tigs in mind, so they should stay there a while / forever. Down the road if we get money, I indeed would like to double or more the flow in it, that'd be your fastest tank I have :) but the tigs could eat the Leporinus...
GREAT video Victor and just to add i agree with the regular water changes to remove the toxins of course but also the fishes hormones as i have seen the slow growth with in the same species in my tanks i.e. 5 flower horns in a mixed community one is 8cm,two are 15cm and two are 20cms, all are healthy and were the same size when i put them in
I know this is 3 years after the fact, but I would highly suggest utilizing the taxonomic literature for identification tips and keys for species that are popular in the aquarium trade. Sorubim was cleaned up back in 2007, keys to all species were clarified. There you will find the original texts and authors who elucidated the species, including elongatus vs. lima.
Thank you much for this. I have read the ID key. It is not easy for a hobbyist to tell elongatus from lima using only external features. I have a naive rookie write up on the topic:
Here is a small write-up I made on lima shovelnose (LSN) or Sorubim lima/elongatus.
Most important: lima maxes out at 2 feet, elongatus at 1 foot. All Sorubim for sale are labeled common or lima shovelnose, never elongatus.
I used to think the vast majority of LSN sold in the US were the smaller-growing elongatus because I had almost never seen a LSN over 1’ in person. Mine never grew beyond 11", which made me assume they were elongatus, but now I know I had not kept them long enough. I had seen only several photos of US-kept 18”-24” LSN (e.g., www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/huge-lima-shovelnose-catfish.123938/). Our European peers say they see 2' LSN more often than we do in the US, but now I think this is because they are in general better, more mature keepers and keep their fish more successfully and longer.
Out of my latest batch of 18 LSN bought at 3” in 2015, today, 5 years later, half grew to 18”-20” while half is still at 12”-14”. This leads me to assume the larger are S. lima & the smaller S. elongatus & to withdraw my initial supposition that mostly elongatus is offered in the US.
It is hard to tell lima vs elongatus for laymen; here is my attempt at ID back in 2010: www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=30938 Next thread describes our LSN experience with photos & videos & a relevant excerpt from the most recent genus revision, which states the ID key is the position of the chin barbels vs gular apex: www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/lima-versus-elongatus-id-thread.524497/
The Planet Catfish entry for elongatus www.planetcatfish.com/common/species.php?species_id=697 offers kind of a soft ID: "Very generally, Sorubim with spots are usually S. elongatus. They are more of a black water species and, as with most such species, tend towards more variable, spotted patterning."
The info on SeriouslyFish www.seriouslyfish.com/species/sorubim-lima/ is well written & arranged. The notes say: "(S. lima is) Distinguished from S. elongatus by having modally 9 pectoral rays; 21 anal-fin rays; 16 gill rakers..." The page does not state the counts for elongatus anywhere. Neither have I found a species page for S. elongatus. Unless I am missing something, I find this odd & not as helpful as it could have been otherwise. All other pointers refer to things that are subjective. Nevertheless, I enjoyed reading the page & learned a lot.
These ambush predators head stand with minimal motion ~vertically among vegetation & debris mimicking a twig or plant & wait for a prey. Young fish like the kin’s company & often would head stand together, tightly aligned, like mine did half the time when they were 6"-10”. Adults largely lose the gregarious trait.
LSN need not live feeder fish. They are smaller predators that snatch smaller fish, crustaceans, & insects in the wild, anything that fits in their collapsible mouth, which is relatively & surprisingly big for their slender body structure. I always feed mine pellet & frozen - small whole fish, cut fish, raw, crust-on shrimp, etc. all presoaked in VitaChem. They can do very well on pellet. My last batch started on cut fish but with time took to pellets (offered to tank mates) all by themselves & have been taking 50% or more pellets while thriving and & growing well. If I recall correctly Necrocanis of MFK reported his specimen doing exceptionally well on pellets too. When very small, mine like freeze-dried & fresh bloodworms, plankton (mini-shrimp-like creatures), etc. LSN growth is not fast, perhaps 6"-7" in one year starting from ~3".
You have a lot of awesome fish!
I just picked up a shovel nose myself, Pretty excited to watch him grow
Thank you. Growing out a fish from small is the most rewarding :)
@@Fish-Story definitely !
Thats one of my favourute videos you ahve done. I loved learning more about the different types of Lima shovelnoses. I suspect you may have two types?? The mandibular barbells on the lower ones did appear to be differently positioned. GREAT VIDEO!! More like this!! Thanks :)
Thank you! I am glad it rubbed you right. One needs good closeup photos to study the mandibular barbel insertion. Even I don't have these photos for my fish. Never wanted to stress them so much. Have you read the write up in the description field?
I got rid of my tiger shovelnose to get a Lima shovelnose once I found out how massive the tiger shovelnose ones get. Lol
Yeah, true adult Sorubim lima at 2 feet is probably 1/20th by weight of an adult 3 foot TSN.
cool fish
I would love to visit your facility one day.
I appreciate it. We aim to open with business hours in some months.
I do not think anyone has failed persay. Humans average is like 5'9". Does that mean all of the people smaller are grown wrong or those taller grown better. Its just genetics. Keep growing the beautiful fish and enjoy.
Thank you. We enjoy them but it doesn't oppose our desire to to know, learn, analyze, and be curious. If this was genetics, one would expect a bell curve distribution, not two discrete sizes as we have observed. Within each size there is a distribution of within a couple inches - that could be the bell curve genetic distribution in each sub group. My question is what factor determines the two groups - 11"-13"ers and 18"-20"ers (as represented today at 8 yo).
@@Fish-Story Agreed with any breeding program you have to have a standard and if their is no clear standard then they probably have not had enough breeding time to make that standard which can be a bad deal because you do not know long term health of the animal.
They have definitely grown, I went back and looked at a little older video of yours and they are much meatier, thicker. Does make me wonder how they would do with a large size tank like the 4500 or even the same size you have them in now but maybe species only or maybe one of your upcoming monster tanks you have planned. Very interesting. Have u ever been able to find any field study's? I keep imagining them at 3-5 ft lol, I bet they would have a heavy attitude to match.
And lastly, how is the devil cat doing? So cool that it seemed like it was doing well in the big tank. Will he get much bigger you think?
Thank you for this comparison. I agree with it most definitely. Sorubim lima are the biggest in the genus and are not known to science to grow over 2 feet. There is a genetically-determined limit. We should be thankful spiders and bees don't grow to a few feet :) The wyckii has been doing very well, especially now that I rehomed its nemesis Indian shovelnose catfish. But it seems stuck in size, same 2 foot +. I think it will grow at least another 6 inches, a foot if lucky, for this many years will be needed it seems, or decades.
I have seen a few elongatus get mislabeled but I guess the issue would be more if you are looking for a 1ft catfish and get a 2ft catfish.
Of course. The main issue is that we must know what we buy so we plan the appropriate and humane care... nor are disappointed because the opposite to what you say is just as true. If I WANT and plan to buy a large-growing fish and has invested much into getting for it the right size tank / pond and all amenities with it, learned the care it will need, made sure I have or save money for the feed, electricity, water, etc., that is I prepared everything for a fish I want, but instead was sold a 2x smaller fish, I'd be disappointed. Two sides of the same coin.
By coincidence,I found an old RUclips vid of a Sorubim I guesstimate to be 28-30". The vid is called "Big Fish of the Amazon by Unexplainedcinema. 2 minutes of one in a huge public aquarium.
ruclips.net/video/bShUz_ZFXa8/видео.html There is no frame of reference in the video. Superficially, this LSN looks the same as mine in my humble eyes.
@@Fish-Story I thought the Flagg fish were about 12"..so went by that. Although did you notice it had trouble with balance and a swollen belly? Or is that just what large ones do after a big meal?
@@StanTheObserver-lo8rx Again, the flagtails were of unknown size. The LSN behavior looked ok to me because they often aim to position themselves semi-vertically to vertically and the belly looked strnage in one angle but overall could be normal. My bigger LSN have large bellies from feeding well.
@@Fish-Story They do that? Ok..Its been near 35 or 40 years since I had one...and it went back a week later never eating a thing and I was never going to start buying goldfish to be eaten. Still refuse to do that. Cichla,Notopterus,Datnoides.. I bought them all and returned them all..none would eat non live food as of the 1980's and early 90's.
Back in those days...wow,dark ages. Books,society's..never had the info like now. Some things I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole knowing how specialized they are from seeing vids.
@@StanTheObserver-lo8rx Haha... interesting stories you have to tell. Consider writing fish keeper memoires :) If you read my write up in the description field, it describes LSN behavior.
Did these fish stay smaller because of food competition with the bigger ones?.
I don't think so. I always give plenty of feed so everyone gets their fill.
What was the spelling of the smaller species you thought they might of been?
Elongatus. Look at the description field :)
Have you shared any videos about your filtration systems? It looks extensive and huge!
Just very large sumps except the 25K that has a wetdry filter. ruclips.net/video/fdDLiYi_muQ/видео.html
@@Fish-Story Wow!
Amazing
:) they are just primitive lowly sumps but I think because of the size, they double as sediment chambers and keep water clear without any polishing or aquasocks etc.
I always wanted a big one. I had one that grows big. But I killed all my fish changing to a125
9 of the 18 grew to 18" and longer
Do the other fish nip at the barbels?
I've seen it with other catfish but can't recall ever seeing it with the lima.
Hi Viktor!
Can 3 Lima live in a 6x2.5x2 feet tank for life? 225 gal tank with a sump filtration
Thank you!
If they turn out to be of the smaller kind, then surely yes. If of the larger kind, then yes too but it might be a bit tight after 5-10 years. But thing will not stay the same for any peer for that long anyway, chances are... You will grow in the hobby and in the tank size! :) I never take "for life" questions as set in stone unless you are retired, never move, never change income.
Do you ship fish?
Right. We do adopt fish out but it's a pickup or local delivery.
Does sex have anything to do with size? And have you or anyone u know ever been successful in breeding?
Not that I know of that there is a size disparity between genders. Neither do I know of anyone breeding LSN in captivity.
Don't get nailed by their pectorals or dorsal spines...extremely painful!
Yup, ouch indeed.
Is that a Yellow Jacket?
The banded leporinus are in the adjacent tank.
It is our water.
Sorry, I am not following.