for those watching this ill-informed video: common household stainless has a hardness of 6-8 while vitreous enamel has a hardness of 5-6 meaning stainless steel will scratch enamel - even careful, thoughtful use of chainmail will inevitably scratch the surface of your dutch oven, accelerate wear and tear and contribute to its demise
I don't think that this test was the perfect analog, but I do not disagree with your conclusion. A better test would likely involve a new glass panel in profoundly amazing shape, the aforementioned cleaning tools, PPE, and a camera capable of record the microscopic damage to the glass. I don't think any of those tools would prevent etching/abrasion to the glass, but I would suspect less "damage" from the brush than the pain scale suggests. I don't have the means to carry out this test, and I'm not suggesting that you should, but if someone cares so much about "being right" that they're hell bent on refuting your relatively vast experience, this would at least give them a starting point to coming up with a useful test.
There are different levels of abrasives. It's like comparing sharp gravel to course sand paper and to fine sand paper. They're all abrasives and will do damage at different rates over time. Videos like this are part of the reason the Le Creuset forum gets unfortunate users who have food stuck to their pans all the time after they've used the green scrub sponge and/or chainmail to regularly clean their pans. Properly cared for enameled cast iron can be cleaned with much gentler methods. Chainmail rags are intended for raw cast iron pans, use it for that. And on a side note, generally you should be leery about trusting the veracity of someone who is trying to sell you something (they linked to the scrubber on their website) and uses a blood relation as their test subject.
I think the biggest potential problem with chainmail on enamel is the quality of the chainmail itself. What if you get, or develop bad rings where the weld breaks. IMO, and seeing that the prices of good enameled cookware don't come cheap for the average person, I feel it's best avoided until the manufacture of such cookware sells, and recommends the use of chainmail. Not sure if you had a problem, and told the warranty department that you were using chainmail if they would back out of their warranty. I do use Ringer brand of chainmail on my CI, and CS though, and I'm quite interested in Field Co. chainmail with the small rings that I believe you are using. Now if you want to delve into some more controversy, go tell uncle Scott Kitchen that you (and I/others) are doing post seasoning on the stove, and it works.....as he is of a different opinion.
Hi, yes, I have seen crap chain mail but that is usually from artisans. Suppliers of cooking chain mail seem to make 100% smooth. Scott and I approach season a little bit differently but the biggest difference is cooking with as much fat. This is why he does not postseason to the same degree.
I find using the chain mail to remove stuck on bread dough from bowls and beaters works really well. Also use on carbon steel and cast iron. I am hesitant to use it on stainless steel….
I am sure enamel is harder than chain mail so I agree with you that scratching is not an issue. However, in the beginning of the video you sort of throw the chain mail in the pot. I dare you to throw it in a couple of times as hard as you can. What's the point of this dare? I suspect cracking the enamel surface is a bigger risk than scratching it. Or in other words creating too much pressure when scraping the pot and end up flaking pieces of the enamel off. Isn't this also the reason why metal utensils are not recommeded?
There are a few reasons... tools like forks come to a point and will etch the enamel, turners(spatulas) and spoons that are metal are almost never made with smooth edges, and will be much more abrasive that the curved, rounded rings in the chainmail. In addition to that, as you pointed out, those utensils generally create more impact forces based on how they are used and those impact forces are typically concentrated on one(or more, in the case of a fork) sharp/abrasive point, which is not typically an issue with the chainmail for obvious reasons. Does he risk chipping the enamel by flinging it in there for style points? Maybe, but due to the mass of the chainmail, it is not as likely to generate the same degree of force on the pan as you would going all gordon ramsay on that thing with your steak-flipping straight-edge. Furthermore, the auditory effect of those things making contact on the video may make the impact we hear through the mic more severe than it is in reality.
Also, any recommendations for ones here in Europe, the only good welded chainmail I can find that delivers to me in Switzerland is Stur cookware's chainmail, and that's a whopping 59 euros!
This went against all my preconceptions. Got a chain mall to clean carbon steel and cast iron. Have a black enameled LeCreuset skillet. Its developed a carbon area that ive stuggled to remove. Hard to see on the black enamel but I can feel it. A few things have started to stick in that area. With just a light gentle rubbing with chain mail I was so happy to get the carbon removed.
Your daughter's arm isn't analogous to enameled cast iron. You're an expert, and experts make mistakes sometimes. I checked with four manufacturers / distributors and didn't find one that suggests their product for cleaning enameled cast iron, and it would be in their interests to do so if they had significant evidence that it did without harming the surface. I checked with two experts. One would make no comment; the other reportedly had tested the use and said it was a bad idea. You've lost this round. Do yourself a favor. Close the store, go home for a good dinner and soothing music, and never bring this up again.
Yes. If you were unsure of your position, you wouldn't want to engage any but those who would agree with you. That would leave out those who research outside this channel to find facts, rather than wholly unchallenged assertions. Knowledgeable people, excepting those who scratch arms of course, disagree. Every knowledgeable source I could find.@@Cook-Culture
Our skin is very sensitive- cast iron, enameled or not, isn’t. What’s the difference? The only difference I could find was wet v/s dry. Wet scratchy plastic scrubbers get softer, chainmail doesn’t. Many producers of cookware tell me to NOT use the scratchy side of a scrubber on their cookware. So there you go! You can both be right.
Hey. Here's an idea: find a reliable source, one whose arm you don't scratch , who agrees with you. I tried to find one, thinking I owed that to you if I were going to disagree. I did search. Fairly thoroughly though not exhaustively, and didn't find anyone who agreed with you. I treated your position with respect and did some homework before writing my initial comments. So. A challenge. Industry expert or professional tester, someone with that level of expertise and calibre of reliability. @@Cook-Culture
The test with your daughter help was good. I like using the chain mill on my Lodge Cast Iron Skillet. Thank you from NYC.
Our pleasure!
for those watching this ill-informed video: common household stainless has a hardness of 6-8 while vitreous enamel has a hardness of 5-6 meaning stainless steel will scratch enamel - even careful, thoughtful use of chainmail will inevitably scratch the surface of your dutch oven, accelerate wear and tear and contribute to its demise
I don't think that this test was the perfect analog, but I do not disagree with your conclusion.
A better test would likely involve a new glass panel in profoundly amazing shape, the aforementioned cleaning tools, PPE, and a camera capable of record the microscopic damage to the glass. I don't think any of those tools would prevent etching/abrasion to the glass, but I would suspect less "damage" from the brush than the pain scale suggests.
I don't have the means to carry out this test, and I'm not suggesting that you should, but if someone cares so much about "being right" that they're hell bent on refuting your relatively vast experience, this would at least give them a starting point to coming up with a useful test.
Interesting food for thought,pun intended. I've always been super paranoid to use anything metal on my enameled cast iron.
i use cream of tarter make a paste and let it sit a few minutes then a regular scrubber takes it right off
Nice
There are different levels of abrasives. It's like comparing sharp gravel to course sand paper and to fine sand paper. They're all abrasives and will do damage at different rates over time. Videos like this are part of the reason the Le Creuset forum gets unfortunate users who have food stuck to their pans all the time after they've used the green scrub sponge and/or chainmail to regularly clean their pans. Properly cared for enameled cast iron can be cleaned with much gentler methods. Chainmail rags are intended for raw cast iron pans, use it for that.
And on a side note, generally you should be leery about trusting the veracity of someone who is trying to sell you something (they linked to the scrubber on their website) and uses a blood relation as their test subject.
Yes, very shifty. Be warned!
I think the biggest potential problem with chainmail on enamel is the quality of the chainmail itself. What if you get, or develop bad rings where the weld breaks. IMO, and seeing that the prices of good enameled cookware don't come cheap for the average person, I feel it's best avoided until the manufacture of such cookware sells, and recommends the use of chainmail. Not sure if you had a problem, and told the warranty department that you were using chainmail if they would back out of their warranty. I do use Ringer brand of chainmail on my CI, and CS though, and I'm quite interested in Field Co. chainmail with the small rings that I believe you are using.
Now if you want to delve into some more controversy, go tell uncle Scott Kitchen that you (and I/others) are doing post seasoning on the stove, and it works.....as he is of a different opinion.
Hi, yes, I have seen crap chain mail but that is usually from artisans. Suppliers of cooking chain mail seem to make 100% smooth.
Scott and I approach season a little bit differently but the biggest difference is cooking with as much fat. This is why he does not postseason to the same degree.
I find using the chain mail to remove stuck on bread dough from bowls and beaters works really well. Also use on carbon steel and cast iron. I am hesitant to use it on stainless steel….
Great use!. I use it on the interior of SS all the time.
@@Cook-Culture thank you! Will try then on the interior.😊
What do you think about Magic Erasers on enamel?
I am sure enamel is harder than chain mail so I agree with you that scratching is not an issue. However, in the beginning of the video you sort of throw the chain mail in the pot. I dare you to throw it in a couple of times as hard as you can. What's the point of this dare? I suspect cracking the enamel surface is a bigger risk than scratching it. Or in other words creating too much pressure when scraping the pot and end up flaking pieces of the enamel off. Isn't this also the reason why metal utensils are not recommeded?
There are a few reasons... tools like forks come to a point and will etch the enamel, turners(spatulas) and spoons that are metal are almost never made with smooth edges, and will be much more abrasive that the curved, rounded rings in the chainmail. In addition to that, as you pointed out, those utensils generally create more impact forces based on how they are used and those impact forces are typically concentrated on one(or more, in the case of a fork) sharp/abrasive point, which is not typically an issue with the chainmail for obvious reasons. Does he risk chipping the enamel by flinging it in there for style points? Maybe, but due to the mass of the chainmail, it is not as likely to generate the same degree of force on the pan as you would going all gordon ramsay on that thing with your steak-flipping straight-edge. Furthermore, the auditory effect of those things making contact on the video may make the impact we hear through the mic more severe than it is in reality.
Metal can be an issue if it catches a divet and lift the enamel.
Thanks for making this
I see the NEW Lodge Dutch Oven 😎
Don’t worry I’ll wash my own Le Creuset pots thank you
So where can you get chain mail at I live in Iowa and how much does it coast
It's sold all over. We sell it, and you can find it on Amazon
What sort of chainmail do you recommend? One with welds thats are smoothed or one without?
Smoothed, definitely. The rings should look "perfect" from an unaided visual inspection(corrective lenses still qualify as unaided).
Also, any recommendations for ones here in Europe, the only good welded chainmail I can find that delivers to me in Switzerland is Stur cookware's chainmail, and that's a whopping 59 euros!
Definitely smooth
This went against all my preconceptions. Got a chain mall to clean carbon steel and cast iron. Have a black enameled LeCreuset skillet. Its developed a carbon area that ive stuggled to remove. Hard to see on the black enamel but I can feel it. A few things have started to stick in that area. With just a light gentle rubbing with chain mail I was so happy to get the carbon removed.
Yeah people are running out of stuff to talk about. This was a waste of my time.
Your daughter's arm isn't analogous to enameled cast iron. You're an expert, and experts make mistakes sometimes.
I checked with four manufacturers / distributors and didn't find one that suggests their product for cleaning enameled cast iron, and it would be in their interests to do so if they had significant evidence that it did without harming the surface. I checked with two experts. One would make no comment; the other reportedly had tested the use and said it was a bad idea. You've lost this round. Do yourself a favor. Close the store, go home for a good dinner and soothing music, and never bring this up again.
All good, You are the person that I said I was not trying to convince! 😃 Chain mail works great on enamel, over the short and long term.
Yes. If you were unsure of your position, you wouldn't want to engage any but those who would agree with you. That would leave out those who research outside this channel to find facts, rather than wholly unchallenged assertions. Knowledgeable people, excepting those who scratch arms of course, disagree. Every knowledgeable source I could find.@@Cook-Culture
@@jameskeener7251 sweet, thanks. Please let me know what those 'facts' are.
Our skin is very sensitive- cast iron, enameled or not, isn’t. What’s the difference?
The only difference I could find was wet v/s dry. Wet scratchy plastic scrubbers get softer, chainmail doesn’t. Many producers of cookware tell me to NOT use the scratchy side of a scrubber on their cookware. So there you go! You can both be right.
Hey. Here's an idea: find a reliable source, one whose arm you don't scratch , who agrees with you. I tried to find one, thinking I owed that to you if I were going to disagree. I did search. Fairly thoroughly though not exhaustively, and didn't find anyone who agreed with you. I treated your position with respect and did some homework before writing my initial comments. So. A challenge. Industry expert or professional tester, someone with that level of expertise and calibre of reliability. @@Cook-Culture