Zwift Race | 3.9 w/kg and still dropped in a Cat B Zwift race
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- Опубликовано: 2 ноя 2024
- This was easily the fastest race ive ever been a part of. 119 ppl on the start line and this just turned into an absolute suffer fest. On the plus side i hit a whole load of performance PR's and if the races would stop getting quicker then im sure ill be able to hold the front group soon enough.
Maybe we'll give this another go later this week.
*slight correction- in the video i say i hold 296 watts up the Alp. I hold 285 for the whole ride up the Alp but i do 296 watt for a 20 min avg.
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Good job sticking with it! I was in this one too and it was my first Zwift race ever. I think i came 76th or so. I've been working to get my fitness back after getting hit by a car last year.
Fantastic effort and progress Max. Your entering into the top third of B category by the looks of it. 120 riders and position 42 could be compared to 40 riders and 10th place for example. Keep doing what your doing....its working!
Thanks man, it feels like its working and trying to focus on the bigger picture which is ultimately to keep getting a little bit better. Race results will come eventually.
Keep these videos up! Really enjoying them, especially as we seem to be around the same fitness level, so it's good to see how quickly you're progressing
As someone who has raced in cat B for years, I have never known the strength in depth there is in this category now. I am a lot smaller than you, but tend to average 3.8- 4.0 w/kg for 20 minutes, Up until the last month or so, I've nearly always been there at the finish, but not strong enough to sprint at the very front. In the last few rounds of the Z monthly races I have really struggled to hold on. Last week I averaged 4 w/kg for the entire race, and got dropped on the climb about 2k out.
I am planning to race this one tomorrow, and I can't say I'm looking forward to it now. One thing I will be doing is riding out of the saddle on the short climb into the volcano. I find it very useful, but that may be because I am smaller, and lack the absolute power. That's how I've always attacked those kind of climbs in real life, so find it comes quite naturally to me, but definitely worth giving it a go.
Yeah I agree that Cat B is getting better. I just figure folks are dropping back from A grade and doing a little sandbagging lol. These 100+ group size races are just faster too, with there always being some trying to push off the front and form a break. I like the races with 20 in them.
This one was particularly brutal. The number of people comfortably holding top end cars gory wattage makes it really difficult.
I haven’t done a Z-monthly with less than 60 odd people yet so I might try find a small 10-20 group which will bring the pace down a bit… I hope
the smaller races are so much fun. There's more strategy involved rather than a slogfest.
Gotta work on that punch too. 58.6% isn’t going to cut it if you want to be at the front at the end of the race. Winners punch was 100% and everyone in the front group is easily 90%+
Totally agree. Problem that I found for "prime time" for B is pretty much become like a TT (especially for lighter weight guy) because somebody will keep pulling and pushing the pace more and more, and not much power left for sprint.
@@benjapolcyclingan that's how you take sprinters out of the race force them to work early an often by the end no kick left.
Eric man I agree with you totally- but I only really race the Z-Monthly prime time races which seem to be getting hotter and hotter!!
So it’s been 5-7 weeks of just trying to hold on and lasting a little longer each time. Once my Avg ability is higher then I’ll be in a better position to increase my ‘punch’ percentage.
Alternatively I could find smaller races with less people that are slightly less spicy. Then I’d be in a stronger position to make a difference between my NP & AP.
Saying that- I’m not working on my Max power (lol) to regularly get over 1,100 watts for short sprints 👀
@@thewattlife I just finish a few ride/race. Basically some guys can put 20 min power of 4.7-4.8 w/kgrace without getting detected or DQ by zwiftpower system. That sucks... So a lot of sandbagging A out there. I think they need to include punchy 1 minute power and raw power output to the category calculation. A guy that show 20 minute of 3.8 w/g but can put 9-10 w/kg in 1 minute apparently not a B rider.
oh damn 😂 that was a pretty good sprint man! , got this race planned for saturday as my second cat B race ever, this is going to hurt by the looks of it, we all improve from races like this, PR'S FOR THE WIN!
Enjoy- dog hard going up into the volcano and try your best not to cough up your lungs on the other side so you can recover!! Then just do it 5 times
Good effort, you basically echo what I felt doing this race, even though mine was in a group of 25. There’s nowhere to hide on this route, and if people are using feather or burrito tactically it forces you to fatigue your top end. In my race, 2 blokes kept punching up that climb and putting 6-7 seconds on the group. I know my 1 minute is 8.4w/kg but nobody was bridging the gap so found myself doing it every single lap. Got the the final lap and punch and I just didn’t have the w/kg, still a good race but frustrating when nobody has an appetite to catch the breakaways 😂
Cracking ride! 🎉 one of your best, for sure 💪 🚴 great numbers and PBs! Progressing nicely and in other times of day, could have been in that elusive front group 👍
Great racing Max and congrats on all the PR's. You're making great progress. People always ride off the front in these prime time races to get the group to chase to set the fastest time of the week as they will be going for the GC time. There's a GC leaderboard on Zwift Power for these races.
Ah yes, this makes perfect sense, just something ive never really had to worry about!!! ha Looking forward to getting a close view of these attacks in a month or so.
If your main goal is to become a better cyclist, you're doing a fantastic job. Your ability to plan and follow through (do the actual work consistently) really stands out. There's a "but" ...get ready. The fastest way to get promoted on Zwift is long power, but the best predictor of success on Zwift is short power. In other words, sprint and/or 1 minute power need to be very high, relative to your FTP, to place well consistently. You're feeling beaten up because your 1 minute PB is 6 w/kg. 7 is competitive. The "top B's" are at 8-9+ . Your overall engine is improving alot, but you're becoming more of a time trialist than a crit guy. Don'tGetDropped already pointed out punch to you. He's right.
I noticed on the climb your bit further back in position that doesn't help when the group strings out during that section.
As much as some people say positioning isn't a factor in zwift their is some truth too it if your a heavier rider. The first loop on the climb you chased but knowing that's coming up.
I would have pushed to get near the front on the back is section. An when you used the feather you were late on power increasing the resistance on it making it harder to follow. Should have used it near the base an spin up into the kicker keeping speed that will carry you over the climb with the feather saving you matches. Staying near the front with good positioning is a easier ride than pain dangling off the back fighting to stay on.
The reason for the pace in the peloton was "aggersive" is that there are some guys racing for the GC in #Race Watopia. Your fastest time on each stage counts towards the total, therefore we need to keep the pace high to get a competitive time for the GC.
I actually think that due to always jumping into the fast races, even though i was dropped from all of them, my GC time wasnt too horrible and i finished reasonably well (top 50%)
Amazing job here! I've just did the same race this morning, same category. Regardless my PB for avg (4.1) and for 20min (4.2) I finish the race in 13th position out of 19 😮💨. I think the B cat can teach that the race tactics are important as well as performance.
Hope to meet you in Watopia! Cheers 💪
Great racing, hopefully see you next week
Looking good there max! Have you got steering yet? It’s handy to maximise the draft and save watts, which is crucial when you are on your limit. On the lead in you were off the side with no draft doing big power to stay with the group rather than sitting in chillin! The reason for the front to attack is to thin the pack they’d rather take off with 10 riders than contend 50. Even if they don’t get away they force the group to chase and wear themselves down. There’s a lot more than just pedalling going on. Nice sprint. Even when I’m not in contention I’ll still practice the sprint. Figure out a distance you know you can sprint from 0.3 or 0.5 of a mile or whatever I do 500m and what kind of hr you need so prior to that ease the power get that hr down to 15 or 20 below max then click up a few gears so there’s plenty of resistance when you get out of the saddle and give it everything 👊. At the end of your z2 ride have a practice and see if you can get your 1000w badge. 😳💥
I haven’t got the steering just yet- but the more I hear about it the more people are convincing me that it’s making a difference.
I can hit 1000 watts on a sprint and I’m trying to do this more regularly as well as hold it for slightly longer. I’m realising that building my 15 sec to 1 min power is important so that’s going to be the goal for the next few weeks.
Great analysis. I did the Cat C race at the same time. Super fast too. Unfortunately had bad legs and got dropped way too early...
Its a tough week now that ZRL is on hold for a bit- plus everyone getting settled for winter
I just did this race as well in C.
I think it's so hard this week 'cause ZRL is on pause this week.
So all the hitters in each cat are in this race.
The last 1 km of each lap is a brutal VO2max effort.
The group's torn up into a dotted line each lap.
"Bin your burrito"?? - I'm level 52, done hundreds of races and I never knew that was a thing! When I get a rubbish power-up like a burrito I usually drop to the back of the bunch and burn it off so that I can get a chance to pick up something else. How do you get rid of it without using it? I'm going to have to do some reading apparently 😀🙃😀
I terms of actually using the burrito, the most effective thing is when 4 or 5 riders in a line across the road all use it at the same time. Can effectively split a large chunk of the group off and leave a smaller group to battle it out at the front. But as someone who just barely hangs on, I generally just burn it somewhere where it doesn't hurt anyone else and hope for something more useful next lap. Totally agree that using a burrito against another rider at the back of the pack is not in the spirit of the game.
Ha yeah theres an option to throw away your PU in the Zwift Companion screen. I can 100% see the benefit of using a burrito to break the group but i tend to find people 'burn them off' straight after they get them so the mid/back pack end up making life harder for themselves sometimes. All in the name of good fun but ive used people's wheels to get back on groups before so my real wheel buddies aint gonna get no burrito from me
Well done mate!
I thought I was off with you to be honest on that last climb! Everyone just took off!!
My legs were feeling it today, could barely turn them round for my recovery ride this morning.
When are we racing again 😊
Ha same time next week- don’t know how you manage to type and ride in those spicy races 🌶️
@@thewattlife I’m clinging on for dear life most the time 😂. Phone is mounted to my bike, and I’m dictating. Siri doesn’t do well when you’re out of breath though!
@@thewattlife think I’ve only got one more 5.10 in me at the moment for this series. It’s really really difficult for me to get back from work for it, but after the last three races at prime time I’m trying for a top 20 GC finish. Not bad for a new B rider 😅.
After that I’ll have to join you for some training rides or something if no racing
Let me check on Monday- might jump in the 6:10 in the hope that it’s not quite so hellishly hot
@@thewattlife was faster than us last week, but we beat them by 3 seconds this week 🤷♂️
Same same it seems
Hahaha These short races are always so funny. I'm there ABSOLUTELY dieing. Everyone else is absolutely knocking on deaths door with their heart just about beating out of their chest aswell. We're all there thinking "why the HELL are we all killing ourselves right now? If we all just slow down a bit, we'll be sweet!". But nope. It's bloody Sandbagger McGee over there pushing an unrealistic pace for the category and everyone is playing catch up causing these stupidly fast races. But I guess, do enough of them and it gets a little easier??? Apparently.... I'm yet to find that.
This describes all the prime time races ive been in lol
I think these big B races feel super hard mainly because of the latest Pack Dynamics which are pretty ruthless. Plus the cat B is up to 4wkg/95%, so ... up to 4.21 wkg! And then... you have to go over multiple times I think, to get upgraded. To top it off, if you are at 4.2wkg you probably do least amount of watts possible for 90% of the race and then blast it when everyones dead and you're pretty much fresh :D
That’s probably the goal right there. Sit in the pack chilling and then blitz it late doors. Ruthless is a good way to describe them though
@@thewattlife I try to do that but.... if you don't have the power, it doesn't work anyway, haha. Lately I started thinking that I just can't sprint anymore, but turns out, I just can't sprint at the end of cat B races because I'm completely out of juice when reaching finish line :(
Exactly how I feel… juice-less
What an effort! Very impressive how fit you are. Zwift racing is so cruel. No matter how much you improve, there are always Zwift races there to humble you.
There is always a bigger fish in the Zwift world- its crazy
Honestly, I think you just need to standup more often in the race.
No need to think about cadence or doing low cadence work.
Switching up between standing and sitting will allow you to rest selected muscle group at a time.
Maybe on some of those shorter ramps it might be useful- did a few out of saddle kicks which are helpful.
Burritos are great to split the pack. If you want a podium finish your chances increase if you can reduce the number in the front group! Especially if you can sprint!
Yeah they have a time and place- but i see them as a front of group PU.
When i riding at the back i need my fellow rear wheelers to help me stay on or get back on if i drop back slightly... the burrito sometimes feels like heavily taxing the poor LOL
Totally agree about burrito, I bin mine straight away unless on last lap and will use it for sprint finish….other than that scenario it’s a shithouse’s power up 😉
Speaking as someone who has a lot of experience at the back of a group… they are pointless!!
The riders around me are what help me stay in the group
If you are limited by the burning (lactate/H+) in your legs -> add over/unders to your training. This helps with recovery from those spikes.
Starting to do more and more of these. Getting better at turning that lactate back into energy
How long have you been Zwifting for? So much of success in Zwift is understanding the game mechanics and doing the least amount of work required to stay in the group.
After a race hop onto zwiftpower and you can see other riders average watts. Some folks are masters at keeping it easy and ride with suprisingly low average w/kg.
A bit hard to say with the video in ffw but it looks like you where moving up frequently and then sliding back. It's a tempting strategy but remember that if you're moving up, you're doing more watts than those around you (when you could be recovering).
I've been practising trying to try to hold my bunch position while doing the minimum watts required. If I'm on a wheel I'll drop 10 watts and if the gap doesn't change I'll drop 5 more. Repeat until the gap starts to open. You'll be surprised how much you can get away with 👍
Not too long- March maybe since ive been taking it more seriously. Had Zwift since Nov last year.
Im not quite fit enough to hold the front group of a Cat B race especially as im usually training quite hard at the same time. Tactics are working for me but dont always last the whole race
Lower cadence in a group race like this? That is going to tire your legs sooner, and you will find it much harder to respond to surges. As I said previously on one of your videos, watts is watts regardless of cadence. For bunch racing a higher cadence works better. Your heart and lungs will always be stronger than your legs - train to cope with these surges (work on your 1 minute and 5 minute powers). The reason you got dropped is not because you lack leg strength, its because you lack the cardio vascular capability (cycling specific fitness). But racing is the best way to bring on your fitness, keep racing and your fitness will grow. Good effort!
To build on this comment. The research data seems to suggest that the most efficient cadence is your own personal self selected cadence. So go with what feels natural in the moment.
Low cadence work can be valuable for improving prolonged climbing (where you might need to tolerate tension in the legs for a while) but for top end strength/power weight training is likely superior.
I love both these comments- but allow me to explain. During the lows in the race where the tempo comes off i want to be able to ride at 80 RPM and crank out 220-240 watts comfortably. The reason is to change up the high RPM efforts that im doing to stay on the group when its rolling fast.
Ultimately i want my default 80 RPM wattage to be higher. This would hten give me a range of 80- 110 RPM during a race that i can utilise.
@@thewattlifewhy? Your self selected cadence will be the cadence your body is happiest with. Arbitrarily selecting a predetermined cadence won’t necessarily be the best cadence
Your cadence in that race when you were most stressed is where your legs and body wanted to be and it wasn’t 80
Agree on a climb with a constant power output a lower cadence *might* be more efficient.
Guess you already figured out that you lack repeatability. Only way to up that is by doing it. I personally like workouts like Ronnestads. 30s on, 15s off. Repeat 13 times and do three sets of them. Also really like 1min on, 1min off, 3set of 5 would be fine.
Those will give a nice boost to to short power and ability to repeat those efforts.
Tactically, work to the front at the easiest points of the race then ride consistently at the hard points. You'll fall back but you'll stay in contact.
Pps, you held higher w/kg than 2nd place, so still some tactics to look at to save power in the group possibly. Looks like the rider in P2 is the same weight as you as well...
Yeah i had a look at this- and it kinda makes sense because i have to keep 'kicking' to stay in the group instead of being able to just drop to a strong wattage to hold the pace. So all my little spikes in wattage add up to a higher avg.
@@thewattlife looks to me like you need to dive in to the main pack asap after the efforts and find the draft. Watch where it's best to sit where your watts are lowering but your pace is the same as the group in front/around you 🙏
I much prefer longer races on Zwift the short ones are crazy!
Yeah i think getting a bit of a balance is great, the speed off the line on these short ones can really ruin the whole event for you if you cant hold on. The longer ones are more measured for sure... and slightly less painful
Your HR never really even broke 165bpm even at that end of 3rd lap punch up in the volcano - but you're breathing was in overdrive. Try this race again after a day off?
Yeah I probably needed to hear this. Looking back at HR data I’m a way off hitting some of my old highs. A few days rest are def needed
You ate burrito after burrito - I would guess if you position just a little further up in the pack rather than sitting behind those burritos you'd hurt way less.
Ps, are you in a team on Zwifty yet?
I raced with the Bielher SYN Team for the ZRL for round 1. Hoping to be in better condition for Round 2 in a few weeks
@@thewattlife cool. I started racing for GXY in round 1 of ZRL. It's brutal. Great bunch of people
Do some over-unders and 40/20s or 30/15s to train punchy power or even long tempo with bursts. I don't get why you want to grind low cadence, nothing wrong with spinning if you're efficient with it, just work on your aerobic engine, lots of Z2. Great effort.
Having a few recovery days and then going turbo on building 1-5 min power. Hopefully
Rode it yesterday; 33/100 in the B with 4.0 watt/kg at 28.50z Got burritod quite some time 😢😮
Just insanely fast paced race- was by far the hottest Cat B I’ve ever even tried to ride in
@@thewattlife I was toast; lost 10 seconds in de final 800 meters. Very fast pace indeed. Funny thing is that the winner in the A was only 10
seconds faster than the B winner 🤣🥴
I always like to check hot the A Cat results come in
Great video, I got dropped after two minutes 😆
Quite honestly i was shocked- i had a look on Strava at some stats.
The lead-in was 6:15 and i avg 317 watts.
The first lap was the fastest by some way too... avg 299 in 5:24.
Just kinda crazy
The bigger the group, there is always someone pulling the group forward. If you would have done this in a 20/30 person group it would have been "fine"
The ZMonthly races are brutal when there is big numbers. 119 riders on the start line- riders riding off the front the whole time pulling the group forward. Might have to try do it in a smaller grouped race later in the week just to see
I don't think its that crazy, cat B is 3.2 - 4.0 for 1 hour so over a half an hour you would expect more than 4w/kg at the front group. if you was hitting 4.5w/kg then yeah I would get it your complaining :) Not hating btw!
We’re on the same page- I like it when the watts are high and people are just pushing hard! These races have really helped my fitness
Is there no way you can tell us how you get on but still be informative as you are? Love the vids but I'd rather not know you at dropped by reading the title or you telling us it's in 30 seconds. I think it would make the videos better. How I look at it is you don't watch the end of a film and then go and watch it as it ruins the outcome.
Will make the next one a bit more suspenseful
Mate it just adds to it. Your smashing it and one day you will win and we will no you've won before you've even set off haha. An keeps everyone on edw a little. Well it does me anyway
Need any sprint help let me know me know
Hey yes- I appreciate this. I’m looking to build my ‘all out power’ ability. At the moment I’m thinking that it’s just a case of practising full on sprints with a long 5-8 min recovery between efforts. Sprint efforts being 10-15 seconds at the moment trying to hold as close to 1,000w as possible.
Is this sounding about right?
@@thewattlife just seen this. If you just want peak looking at 6-15 sec effort at max effort with 5-15min gap between efforts
Then longer efforts for sustained power 15-30sec even maybe 45sec holding a high avg power for that period. So maybe 700-800w for you possibly with again large gaps between efforts. Thats a good starter 👍
Thank you- realistically how many reps could you do is a session. feels like it might be 3-5 at the most?
@@thewattlife yeah. Also look for each session doing them just pure seated, out the saddle and also rolling it at different cadences. So an example would be a 10-15min warm up with x2-3 shorts sprint like 3-5 secs in that blocks then 3-5 sets rolling in slow for a 6sec max sprint seated. Rest for 6-8 min aloowing a gear that gets you to approx 120 RPM then a 5-10 min cooldown at the end. Other eg could be cluster sets - same warm up as above but rolling in at 60 rpm, then 3 sets of jumping hard out the saddle for 10 secs rest for 50 secs and repeat that a totla of 4 times to make 1 set then coold down as above :)
Electric bike for the hard bits is what I've heard. Just enough to not let your HR drop 😢🤬
There’s an idea
Ughhhhh major FOMO
We missed you man- Monday Primetime waits for no one
The guy who got 2nd did less than you
Yup- I tend to have to spike my watts a lot more, as my general strength/fitness is not as high as the top riders. These spikes often lead to higher avg watts. As well as falling out the draft. At the moment, yeah, I’m pretty inefficient in a race until I can get my comfortable power a bit higher