What is a Just War?
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- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2018
- In the Catholic Tradition, there has always been a concept of a "just war." What does this mean and when does it apply?
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This video is a lifesaver, god bless you - A frantic catholic school student who has a theology final tomorrow
I know you filmed all these episodes in one day because you wear the same outfit in all of them
Ahh! You caught me. But maybe not... you'll have to check all of the stains visible on my habit to see if any are new from video to video!
We need a laught react in youtube
Roflmbo
The catholic church in the Philippines played a big role in the revolution of 1986, making it known as the bloodless revolution in modern history.
One of my Karate teachers was a 3rd Order Franciscan. He spoke of the concept of self-defense as you would in the just war. He also said if you were given the gift of Karate to protect by God. So basically in my view as long as you avoid violence at all cost your ok with the BIG MAN.
Thank you for making this video Brother Casey. This is an important topic that many either misunderstand or do not know about.
I’m not Catholic, I’m nondenominational but this was very informative. I was thinking about this all day today and trying to figure out what was allowed and what was wrong.
What's keeping you from catholicism?
Excellent and enlightening video, thank you.
Hi Br. Casy,. I think you explained this very well. Thanks for sharing!!
God Bless 😊
Peace & Good,
Steve
helps me a lot with my school with thanks mate
Thank you brother . great video on this sometimes confusing subject.
His next video he is going to talk about the religious wars of the catholic church and how if you want to, you can twist around your religious reasoning to justify violence and murder.
Thank-you Brother for such an enlightening talk.
As an x Catholic and agnostic, I still study philosophy at age 65 and appreciate the Jesuits teachers of my youth. And wonder why the main voice of the church in the USA is all about abortion while a rapacious oligarchy benefits off of the US goals for hegemony, which by extension leads us to endless wars.
Having spent my life building for the homeless, the disenfranchised, both here and in South East Asia, it breaks my heart to see what is done in my name, by a country claiming Christian values. Twisting the gospels, bearing false witness, to steal their resources, and murder to do so.
Nice video
Great vid. Just wondering a couple of things. Why was there no mention of Jus post Bellum (Justice after war)? Also, I got the sense when you use the phrase 'avoid war at all costs' you are trying to emphasise the desire to avoid war using all other means available first and foremost e.g. diplomacy etc. but 'avoiding war at all costs' can also paint a piture of the other extreme which Augustine etc. wanted to avoid i.e. pacificsm - the automatic cost of your own life and letting people 'walk all over you' so to say. I don't think that's what you mean in the phrase but it does allow room for that interpretation.
keep it up bro.
thanks for helping me with a levels broski
Woooow, very interesting topic
This is quite an interesting understanding. Becuase its one of the grounded in Western War Doctrines, even seen within the Geneva convention, even in non catholic nations.
Well because all of christendom comes from catholicism
Great content! Thanks for the clear delivery.
You use the term "brothers and sisters in Christ" for others in war. Is this something that Franciscans call all people, regardless of their confessing status?
Mike Williams If we look to the letter to the Ephesians, we see that christ is the firstborn of all creation, and everything in being comes through him. He did not come to be in our image, but we were created in his preexistent image. Therefore, regardless of one’s baptism or confession, we see them as brothers and sister in Christ, at least in a general sense.
Very interesting.
I've always understood it differently. Certainly one's value as image bearer is the main reason for pacifism, but I was under the impression that Brother and Sister in Christ was reserved for the confessing. As Jesus himself says, "Who is my brother or sister or mother? The one who does what I say." It also lends toward Paul's explanation of adoption in Romans 8. Or fact that Paul and the Epistle writers reserve the name "Brother" only for other believers.
Truly, the terms "brother and sister," I don't take issue with, but "in Christ." The calls to be "in Christ" and the warnings not to be "cut off from Christ" or "fallen away from Christ" is a topic frequently visited in the New Testament.
Regardless, your accessible and peace-loving content is always a blessing. Keep up the great work!
@@mikewilliams6025I think it’s worth thinking of “in Christ” as the qualifier. Brothers and Sisters are only our fellow Christians. But all people are brothers and sisters *in Christ* and also our neighbors.
Hi. can you send me the source where you got the criteria for jus ad bellum and jus in bello? its for my school paper haha. Thanks
What's was your paper on of I may ask ?
This raise a big question for me. One that I think is highly important. We all see the world through our own eyes, and tint that world view thru the morale codes were were raised on. What do the other world religions have to say about a "Just War". Do they mention it at all? What does Islam actually say? What does Buddhism and Hinduism actually say? Beyond what the texts say, how can it be interpreted, or possibly justified. I think it is quite important that we not create "Just War" conditions upon people who see the world in a slightly different way .. if at all possible. Or at least know when we are in dangerous territory.
Watching now to further educate myself as Russia continues to attack Ukraine. My prayers for peace in Ukraine and the world 🙏🏼🇺🇦
You know im really curious when the northlanders came to England what stopped the church from fighting the northlanders back it sounds like that checked every box?
There is certainly a gradient in the justness of wars. Some wars are easier to justify than others. It becomes morsly very difficult when we start talking about interventionnism and saving foreign nations from their dictators. Are we morally obligated to act? I have never found any completing arguments for or against. You just have to make a decision and live with the evil you caused by trying to do good.
Quick question @ 5:00, why isn't "mass rape" just "rape"? Is there any case where rape is justifiable? Especially considering #3 (military necessity), when has rape helped win a war? ik the wording of my question seems snarky, but its just the easiest way to word it.
He said mass grave
I’m sorry but Pope Francis does not have the right to change that in the strict sense that you just said. He can say in practice it’s really not acceptable anymore because we have too many ways of protecting society. But he cannot say it is never acceptable because there may be situations arise where it may still be needed.
Yeh boi
I am guessing the kings of Europe ignored this part of the catechism alot.
Yes, as have the modern day leaders. It is one that has almost never been put into practice.
@@BreakingInTheHabit Hi Br Casey. As I understand more and more about historical conflicts as well as Christian doctrines towards war, I am more and more convinced that true peace won't come until the revelations come to pass because we as humans are too limited and imperfect in our ways, beliefs and thoughts to achieve this. We would need to wait till the coming of punishment of the Satan, the false prophet, the Beast 666 and Babylon, these forces driving our thirst for conflict and malice in the first place, before we can see the light of truth and peace.
this isn’t a simple topic. would you rather see cathedrals burned to the ground than to take up arms? no one wants war. it’s a reality of the imperfect world we live in. I think we have the ability to distinguish a just war. one that is selfless and once all alternatives are off the table
Wow. Impressive the Vatican has a stance on this issue
Yes, if there is an issue in our world, chances are the Catholic Church has thought about it and offered a response.
Does this mean combat sports like boxing, and video games like fortnite and call of duty are bad? Cuz they are pretty violent right? ( i mean this genuinely, not sarcastically)
what about jus post bellum ?
Hmmm Saint Sebastian was a member of the Pretorian Guard and he lived before the church was accepted.
Now I want to read all books from Saint Augustine :v
Old video, I know, but i justvran across it.
As a Catholic (albeit a struggling and much lapsed one), and a veteran who has studied war, military history, military philosophy, and the Cathechism for decades, i thinknitnis important to address those who think the failure of man to succeed in a perfectly "just war".
The *failures* do not obviate the *attempts* (however flawed) to at least stay close to the Just War Doctrine, as even the imperfect attempts reduce the horrors.
Just War isn't about eliminating the evils of war - it is about *reducing* them... and even an imperfect reduction is still a reduction of those evils.
And to those who think the idea of self-imposed limitations on how one foghts a war (regardless of how the war started), I would say, "Even if you reject the moral argument that limiting horror in an inherently horrific situation is a good in and of itself, Just War Doctrine makes sense from an amoral (not *immoral* - I merely mean consodering it in the absence of a moral concern) perspective. From a purely logical, "no moral considerations given", Just War Doctrine *still* makes sense.
An enemy who knows that all that awaits them if they surrender or lose is deliberate horror once they are defenseless will not only probably respond with such horror when they have the opportunity, they are nearly certain to foght to the death and thus inflict more casualties to your own forces.
Thus, making it easier to give up when they cannot win makes it more likely they *will* give up when they cannot win, saving *your* own side the costs (in "blood and treasure") of having to fight everyone to the last man.
Isaiah 1:17 Seek justice. Punish those who hurt others. Help the orphans. Stand up for the rights of widows.”
this is the concept of just war. how to punish if you don't go to war ?
Jesus said pray for your enemy, enemy that doesn't commit violence.
but those enemy that commit violence Jesus said buy Luke 22:36 "and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
Genesis 9:6. Something the Holy Father should have considered before defying Tradition
"just war" is what young boys tell you when you ask them what they're playing.
I think as Christians we have to keep in mind that fighting a war is always sinful. War is not a part of Gods plan for this world. However under the circumstances described by Brother Casey it is a justified sin which becomes necessary because the world is sinful. All the participants of the war will always be in need of forgiveness.
Thank you, Father, for your sensitive take on this crucial issue. By the criteria of the Just War Doctrine, there has not been a "just war" since The Great War Against Fascism (i.e. World War II). And even that was questionable, when one considers how that war was carried out, with the world crucifixion that was the horrific and racist crime and sin of dropping two atomic bombs by the United States of America (totally unnecessary), carpet bombing of civilians and civilian infrastructure by all sides, Great Britain's reluctance to defeat the enemy in certain areas if it meant giving up its racist colonialism, and failure to prevent or stop the Holocaust. And when one considers how Nazis were used by the United States after the war to create the evil institution that is the CIA (Operation Paperclip), rendering a second slow holocaust throughout the third world with all their covert wars, sometimes spilling over into overt wars (Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Central America, Lebanon, Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Palestine, etc.). And, in truth, as taught by Mahatma Gandhi and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. (both cited by Pope Francis in his "Letter On Nonviolence," January 1, 2017), war is unthinkable and obsolete in the Atomic Age because any war can lead to the destruction of all life on the planet. When Pope Francis spoke before the Congress of the United States of America, he made sure to point out three great American pacifists in his speech: Dorothy Day, Thomas Merton, & our greatest American prophet Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.) as pillars for us to look up to. He compelled the United States of America to end its wars.
I watched this in school XD
Brother Casey has made an error in this presentation. Pope Francis did not change the Church's stance on capital punishment, nor can he. He expressed his personal opinion about its applicability and that is all. It is not morally binding on Catholics to oppose the death penalty.
He kinda did, and he kinda can. I'm pretty sure when he talks about morality from the throne of Peter it means he can make changes. That's why he is the pope. I also don't see how the death penalty is even justifiable unless God commands it. Jesus died by death penalty, he literally was wrongfully sentenced ( if he, the King of Kings, was killed by men wrongfully, how can we EVER be sure we are not killing innocent men?)
Also I am not trying to have a heated discussion on the topic. But as someone who struggles constantly with the hierarchy of the Church, I am trying really hard to see why it is important to have a Pope... It seems to me "good" Catholics evaluate why the Pope has certain opinions on things, I mean there MUST be a reason to it. And yet some other people look for ways to stick to their beliefs and not renounce to themselves for a second. I agree with that it is not morally binding if we don't know the Truth but we must first search for it right?
@@Fernanda-tg3ox No need to fear heated arguments. ;)
To your points: We cannot use Christ's sacrifice in this context - as a comparison to modern civil law, as the Father *willed* his death in this manner for his own purposes. Although the men who effected Christ's death are no less guilty of sin, it was for this very end Christ entered the world. As for capital punishment being willed by God, it HAS been...see the OT Scriptures for reference keeping in mind the the law was not abolished but fulfilled and that God never changes. As for Francis speaking on this topic EX CATHEDRA, which is the only manner in which he could establish a doctrinal concept, his stance on capital punishment has not been expressed as such and so does not change Church teaching. Theologically speaking, it is Catholic Doctrine that no pope can change Catholic teaching. A pope has no more authority than his brother bishops except in very specific circumstances. Blessings.
@@springytest so the lay person suddenly has the power to be judge and juror of who gets to live? Just keep in mind we will be judge by the same standards we judge others.. God will not let his Church fall, if Francis is the pope for good or bad is because God allowed it. And I'm certain is for the better of the Church
@@Fernanda-tg3ox No. Not the lay person, but the state. If you do not recognize that the Church has upheld capital punishment as a right of the state since the beginning of Christianity, you do not know church history very well. Francis changed nothing. You simply do not understand this aspect of your own faith.
First I guess I need to point out that the 6th Commandment of the Ten Commandments does not say "Thou shalt not kill" as the correct translation is "Thou shalt not murder" and we have known of this mistranslation for over a 100 years so I'm a little suspect that you continue repeating a known mistranslation. And second as far as Christ teaching his disciples "Pacificism" you need to explain Luke:22: 35 And he said unto them "When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?" And they said, Nothing. Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." As far as Christ teaching his disciples to "Turn the other cheek" He is clearly talking about a "Smite" as stated which was an open-handed slap on the cheek that was an insult and NOT an attack meaning physical harm that needed to be defended against. As much as I respect you I believe you are being a bit disingenuous in this matter by the very words you have chosen to use. If Christ was such a pacifist He surely was not showing it with the money changers in the Temple as one of His first actions was pulling down a cord and fashioning a whip to drive them out. He was clearly demonstrating there are times violence is appropriate and needed.
A large part of your paragraph can be answered in the following way. Just as the Jewish Old Testament had a series of Talmudic scholars to analyze and properly interpret the OT, Church fathers and an army of scholars have interpreted the New Testament. This is not to say that there is no value in reading either the OT or the NT, but Catholics typically use the Pope and the Church magisterium as their guide. Protestants, on the other hand, generally go by the principle of sola scritura. This typically causes Protestants a lot of trouble, especially with Genesis.
lam bda How did that answer anything?
St Augustine of Canterbury?? xD
I disagree about capital punishment. Scripture says that government is to bear the sword to punish evildoers.
I dont know a non-violent outcome of a punishment done by sword.
And where does it say that? Are these Jesus’ words?
We must be careful not to cherrypick lines that support our stance but be open to the overall truth of revelation. More than anything, God is merciful. Even when killing happens, it is done with remorse and is never a good thing. It is the result of a fallen world, not something God wants.
"More than anything, God is merciful"
Be very careful about such statements. You have no idea what God "more than anything" is. God is just. Justice demands that the wages of sin be paid and the wages of sin are death.
Jesus died for our sins, true, but you are crossing a certain line by claiming that God is more merciful then anything else. God is perfect. In Him, Justice will not suffer.
War is a state of armed conflict between states, governments, societies and informal paramilitary groups, such as mercenaries, insurgents and militias.
It is generally characterized by extreme violence, aggression, destruction, and mortality, using regular or irregular military forces.
Warfare refers to the common activities and characteristics of types of war, or of wars in general.
Total war is warfare that is not restricted to purely legitimate military targets, and can result in massive civilian or other non-combatant suffering and casualties.
The scholarly study of war is sometimes called polemology, from the Greek polemos, meaning "war", and -logy, meaning "the study of".
While some scholars see war as a universal and ancestral aspect of human nature, others argue it is a result of specific socio-cultural or ecological circumstances.
Your video is a striking repudiation of Innocent III's crusade against the Albigensians, the Papal Bull Absurdum Cum Nibis, and the Church's actions during the 30 Years War (reference Magdeburg Quarter).
How do you expect us to accept your position when the Catholic Church itself has never practiced these "guidelines"?
When has an ideal ever been lived up to? Is that supposed to leave us cynical or force us to lower our standards on what we know it right? The Church, like any organization or individual, has made many mistakes in its history. But that's the beauty of our faith: we admit to being frail and sinful on our own, but confess perfection in Jesus Christ. When he reigns and we get out of the way, we reach the ideal. When we are in charge, we fall short.
When has an ideal ever been lived up to? More on this further down... I think it a mistake to conflate honest inquisition with cynicism. It's a lofty goal for you to speak for everyone in the church. It's not cynicism to say that there have been some in the church who required their frailty and sinfulness to be shown to them, rather than admitting it themselves. But I agree that honest introspection is the goal, isn't? I hope, as you seem to, that we all can live up this that you would be able to speak for humankind itself when you say "we"... It is a fine ideal to strive for.
"When has an ideal ever been lived up to?".... ummm... You did just that, brother. :-)
7:53 I am pretty sure there are some cases where capital punishment is justified.
And were the Crusades justified?
Definitely no to both. The only just war I can think of right now is the second world war. There can also be some argument made for some rebellions or wars of independance. No matter what war is always sinful but in very rare cases it can be a justified sin.
@@mg7094 "The only just war I can think of right now is the second world war."
Congratulations on saying the dumbest thing I'm likely to see on the internet today.
@@RJStockton the dumbest thing to do, is to state an opinion without reasoning. So you've won the race to the bottom.
@@mg7094 WWII wasn't a just war. How much more reasoning do you need? I would have thought it was self-evident.
Yes, the crusades failed to fulfill many of these criteria, which is why it's important to remember two things: 1) just because the Church acted hypocritically doesn't mean that it's theology wasn't correct, and 2) the crusades were not entirely the work of the Church, but rather attracted many greedy and unholy people to take advantage of the situation and do horrible acts in the name of the Church.
Look to book of Joshua.
...crusades??
Yes unfortunately that dis happen, but the Catholic Church has changed since then. Saying that the Catholic Church is a “cult that hates non Catholics and wants to control the world for greed” is like saying “how can America be a world super power when they are just a colony of British farmers?”
@T J they also did some bad things, like kill muslim civilians (children included) and killed Jews as well.
Religion class anybody?
There are very few countries that do this well, but there are a few very few that at least try. And I believe that because of advancements in weapons that makes this almost impossible please pray for soldiers of war, victims of war, the combatants of war, and pray for peace. Dear Jesus, forgive us in Jesus name amen.
lol the crusades ' just war' eh
Jesus Said to Stone a Child who Hurt their Parents. Also, the Death Penalty was Practiced numerous times in the old testament.therefore, to say that the Death Penalty is Never Moral is Incorrect. Also, A Question; if the Pope Says something that Contradicts the Bible, Do we have to Obey it?
No, papal infallibility is extremely rare, what Pope Francis said was not binding or infallible so you can disagree and he also didn't say it was never admissible, just that in the modern day we should go with other options to avoid the chance of killing an innocent person and that was his personal opinion. To your last point doctrine can never contradict so if the Pope says something that contradicts the bible it wouldn't be binding and there is a lot of debate over whether or not that would make the Pope lose his position as manifest heresy is an automatic excommunication, although there is nothing concrete on that
Jesus wasn't always against violence if there was a just cause. a bit before his crucifixion he forced the traders in the temple to leave. I think he accepted violence if there was a good reason to do it..
I don't think he killed or even hit anyone directly when he forced the traders to leave the temple.
Is torture then evil in itself? Not sure
can someone give an example of a just war in the 21st century
Palestine is definitely justified. The rest, no.
Ukraine fighting back against the Russian invaders
Catholics be like :.
CRUSADES
Yes, the crusades failed to fulfill many of these criteria, which is why it's important to remember two things: 1) just because the Church acted hypocritically doesn't mean that it's theology wasn't correct, and 2) the crusades were not *entirely* the work of the Church, but rather attracted many greedy and unholy people to take advantage of the situation and do horrible acts in the name of the Church.
Breaking In The Habit jesus at what place did I end up hahaha
Haha I love religious humor
What do you mean? You think this is all farce?
Alyssha Beronio yes actually
@@ArcticVulpez Then tell me why.
Alyssha Beronio crusades, slavery
How can any war, be considered just ? In every single war innocent people die .
For a war to be truly just , not a single innocent soul would be lost .
Jesus said his Kingdom, is not of this world .
It's a matter of conscience, that many Christians choose pacifism, those that do must be encouraged and supported in their choice .
It is a difficult question you ask for sure. I think the point to remember is what I said at the end of the video, which is that violence is never a good. No matter the reason, it is never seen as something that makes the world better. Unfortunately, sometimes we are faced with a situation in which more people will be harmed or even die if we do nothing, and so we see violence as a choice of the lesser of two evils. Some would argue that this is the best thing for us to do (Just War) while others would say that we stand against this and win people over with love (pacifism). I think there is merit to both arguments.
I understand what you're saying, but I'm a little hesitant to accept this as such a broad category. I think many nations would have justification, in this instance, to invade American soil to fight the evil of institutionalized racism, income inequality, degradation of the poor, mass incarceration and death penalty, and so on. I think it's easy to point to Hitler and villainize people (and trust me, I'm not defending him) but to go on that criteria alone opens the door to a lot of violence. There has to be more criteria for evaluating the cause (as I mentioned in this video), and even in the case of someone like Hitler, there must be restraints on action. Dropping the atomic bomb or carpet bombing Dresden would not be justified by any moral code of conduct.
Countries do not even respect the Geneva conventions, what did you expect?
A good man fights because he loves life and desires peace.
An evil man fights because he loves death and desires war.
And a follower of Jesus doesn't fight at all.
@@BreakingInTheHabitare the angels of the heavenly host, not followers of Jesus?
Was Abraham not his friend and devoted servant?
When Christ appeared to Joshua, as the Commander of YHVH's Army, did Joshua not call Him Lord?
Was David, a man mighty in battle, not also a man after God's own heart?
"And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets- who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight." ~ Hebrews 11:32-34
You have taken our Lord's Commands regarding insults and affronts and improperly applied them to matters of National Defense and of Justice and Self Defense.
Christ Himself commanded that His servants buy swords, and despite how many have tried to twist His words, He, Himself, gives us the reason for doing so. Whilst He was yet with the disciples, they had no need of purses, or bags or sandals, He had arranged for all their needs to be taken care of, "but now" He says, "let the one who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one." As the Disciples went out into the world to spread the Good News, things would be different. He continues, "For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about Me is reaching its fulfillment." Many have tried to say that Christ was trying to have the Disciples appear as transgressors in the Garden, to manufacture some cheap fulfillment of this Scripture, but God Himself tells us through the Word, that this prophecy was not fulfilled in the Garden, but upon the Cross.
"With Him they also crucified two robbers, one on His right and the other on His left. So the Scripture was fulfilled which says, 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.'" ~ Mark 15:27-28
Others point to Christ's rebuke of Peter in the Garden, but again, Christ tells him why, it was not that Peter had no right or even duty to defend innocent blood, but that God Himself had ordained Christ's arrest and crucifixion. Our Lord Himself informed the Apostle that He could call down countless legions of warrior angels to defend Him, but that it was not God's will to do so. Peter, in trying to defend Christ from the mob, was, in fact, fighting against God, a battle that no man can win. But notice, Christ does not disarm Peter, He simply tells him to return the blade to its sheath. The very blade that Jesus commanded Peter to buy just a few hours earlier.
Then, following Pentecost, as the Disciples went out into the world, we see the conversion of the Centurion, but there is no rebuke of his profession, nor is there a call for him to abandon his position, he is accepted as a child of God and follower of Jesus, despite being a member of the Roman Army.
And indeed, Cornelious, along with all such men who are in armed service are called by the Apostle, the Servants of God, and avengers of wrath who do not bear the sword in vain.
To condemn all men who serve as Police Officers and as Soldiers, would be to condemn the greatest of the Saints in Scripture, and to condemn the Lord Himself, for it is written that YHVH is a Warrior, YHVH is His Name.
And when the Lord returns, it will be in fiery vengeance against the wrongdoers, and all the host of heaven will ride out with Him to wage war against those who have destroyed the world. And the King of Kings will command His servants, "these enemies of mine who were unwilling for me to rule over them, bring them here and slay them in front of me"
Blessed be YHVH my strength, who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle.
Our LORD is both a Man of War and the Prince of Peace.
Therefore, so far as it depends on us, let us live peaceably with all men, but to stand by and watch as innocent blood is being shed is to be anything but a follower of Jesus.
Can a Catholic disagree with Francis on the death penalty? All the church Fathers unanimously approve of the death penalty.
Leo The Great There are a few things worth noting here. The first is that just because a pope says something doesn’t make it true. There is a hierarchy of Truth, and not all statements have the same weight (Dogma is more important than discipline.) Pope Francis has a teaching authority, and so what he teaches officially, as in this case, cannot be immediately ignored. He has made it the official teaching of the Church. To deny it would be akin to those who use birth control, join the Masons, etc. In their conscience they dissent from the teaching.
Now, as for the Church fathers, we have to remember that, while they are important, many did not have any official teaching authority. They were wise, but they were not the magisterium. Even some of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas’ thought was rejected. Just because they said something doesn’t make it true. The Church fathers all supported a system that included slavery as well.
But maybe most importantly, one would have to ask why there is a need to dissent. What about the death penalty reminds us of the teaching of Jesus? Is it really a good that we should want to promote?
Not everything that is binding comes from an ex cathedra statement. In fact, there have only been two such statements in Church history. The pope has many ways to decreeing teaching, each with varying level of authority. In this case, I think you are right to say that it is a gray area, but my question still remains: why would someone want to defend or fight against this statement? Why would we ever want to promote the death penalty? Sure, it was allowed in extreme cases in the past, when the person was a threat to others and could not be contained safely, but that is not the case in our world today. Jesus is very harsh on the idea of retribution, and I think we should take that seriously.
Pope francis and brother casey probably think death penalty is wrong but according to him depending on how you read the bible and what jesus says; sometimes violence is okay!! It makes sense catholics have this view because throughout history they have murdered countless people in religious wars and let's not forget all the people they tormented(for not being good believers) during the spanish inquisition.
Imagine how much better the world would be if the catholic church ran it?
@@BreakingInTheHabit Thank you Brother. Trent Horn on Catholic answers said the Catechism is not a infallible document in of itself.
It isn't infallible...it changes. How can something that changes ever be considered infallible?
Its not a minor thing to change the catechisms teaching on the death penalty. Moral Truth (Doctrine) in the Church doesn't change. It is the same now as it always was and always ever will be, in all places. Our understanding our application of it can change, but not the Truth itself.
The bigger issue I have is that in the age of information that we live in when a statement of the Pope from his plane can be transmitted to the entire Church in only a few minutes can cause confusion among the faithful. Church leaders should be sensitive to this, and be very clear and careful about how they speak. On lots of issues good faithful obedient Catholics have ironically grown more confused over moral teaching because of the lightning fast medium that information travels in the 21st century.
When I was a kid I had absolutely no doubts that I could trust my Catechism. Now, I feel like things "change" too quickly to rely on a printed book for anything...which is good in most ways, but there my Catechism sits on my shelf still laying claim to its importance. Its very confusing to explain to someone why something published in a relatively new edition of the Catechism is "out of date" --- that is what happens to TV Guide, not what is supposed to happen to our Catechism.
So can I note wage a war if I do not have a probability of success? Seems a bit odd that i should not try to defend a nation even if the odds are low? Also this beggs the question of how much probability is enough? 20%? 50%?
I beg to differ for in any war the innocent are killed thus violating the just cause and distinction requirements. Therefore no such thing as just war.
How does the genocide of the Amalekites fit into this?
Cool answer...however, not everyone we war against are, 'our brothers and sisters in Christ' (as you mentioned).
That is irelevant. It is up to God to decide when those people are considered beyond redemption and be put to death. By killing them you make that decision. Do you really want to make a decision that God is supposed to make?
I am not Christian in a way that I believe in Jesus being a God. But do I believe in his higher being and do I believe his words to be true and something to live by? Absolutely. Only after starting to doubt religion, chruch and priests did I actually start reading the Bible and appreciating Jesus. People find excuses for their "sins", in other words harmful and toxic behavior that primarily harms themselves and those around them; but we can in reality all live like Jesus, unselfish and pacifist.
That being said, somehow I do believe in Just War to some extent. If it's for a greater cause against an evil country or nation or to fight indoctrination, it's just. As long as no civilans are harmed. Soldiers on the other hand choose to fight wars for their countries; If you die, it's a result of your actions, not someone else's evil.
Not all soldiers are volunteers. Unlike most countries now days, in previous wars, most countries used conscripts and they would sentence conscientious objector to death. Their choice was mostly: be killed by their own side, or risk being killed by the enemy. How much of a choice is that?
St. Augustine was a saint, just like Paul and Peter. Nevertheless, the Catholic Church is mystery Babylon.
Jesus taught " love you enemies," The catholic church teaches there are just wars. The catholic church is far from God.
I rake it that you have not read the Bible where his dad tells people to kill all the mothers and their babies and take the little girls to f..k?
"All costs" what kind of a weak hearted guy are you man? All costs?!
It actually takes a strong heart to say no to violence and retaliation, submitting to God's will, despite the desire to avenge and kill.