Once I told my 20 man squad of cadians to charge a wounded BA assault intercessor. They finished off the unit but wounded Tycho who killed 10 in fight back. Next round as the defender my platoon commander and cadian Castellan killed Tycho with their powerfists.
Mordian, you just wait till you look at the power of a Hades Breaching Drill with an Ursula Creed and Kasrkin attached. Comedy points for the comedically sized drill and the amount of orders you get as well as a free stratagem makes it quite funny.
One huge thing that I think is worth mentioning is that if you include an Ogryn Bodyguard in a unit the entire unit becomes T6 since the rules commentary states that you use the highest Toughness value in the unit when rolling to wound. Edit: Nevermind I'm wrong. You use the T value of the bodyguard unit and the Ogryn is part of the Command Squad.
Unfortunately it's only when the command squad is by itself. You use the toughness of the bodyguard unit when they are attached. I get the confusion that the ogryn bodyguard is not a "bodyguard unit" but instead part of the command squad
@@LynKrieger They may have updated it. I'm referencing Page 15 of the rules commentary. If there is something more recent than that let me know. I think it came out a while ago. The rules blurb on the Ogryn Bodyguard/Attaches say that they become members of the squad. Edit: Disregard this, another commenter cleared this up for me.
@@billyfan149 Ah okay. That's why it works when you run the Tempestus Command squad with the Ogryn Bodyguard but not when they join a Scion squad. Thanks for clarifying. On that topic, whats your opinion on the Ogryn/Attaches gaining Deep Strike since they become members of the unit and the unit has the Deep Strike ability. Is that legit?
If you really want to max attacks bring nork deddog, his knife is S8, always hits on twos and makes 6 attacks at damage 2, and every time he fights he will do a few mortals. And he has a 5+ fnp and gives his officers a 4+ fnp
Is it possible to take a catachan squad (10 or 20) and add 2 enginseers and 2 units of servitors to it? If so you could put them in reserve with a Hades Breaching Drill. Then you Rapid Ingress with the drill and bring the squad in with it. It can’t order itself but a Master Vox might have range to it. And for 25 points a cyclops can easily fit into strategic reserve to hopefully die near the enginseers to buff them. It’s not terrible, but it’s also a lot of points for something that is only “not terrible”.
I run my Catachans in a similar way. Command squad, bodyguard, straken, and the other unit has Lord Solar in mirrored fashion. It hits damn hard even in that form.
The Strak-Nork is worth losing Scout for. If grenades are thrown first, they do on average take down Angron in 1 round (being an average this isn't of course reliable). With Melee units - Bodyguards are excellent for their points. Melee guard in general is excellent. Bullgryn are one of the best melee units in the game for their points. The Strak-Nork makes holes in the opposing army. RoughRiders are incredibly good, particularly with reinforcements and Rapid Ingress. I'd still pick +1S and -1ap for the whole unit over 1 extra powerfist and some special weapons personally (as that is the only difference to taking this over a Cadian squad). 19 st7 ap3 is going to be far better than 22 st6 ap2. Although worth noting Cadia stands would be an excellent rule in the current Custodes -1D meta. Been running 18 Bullgryn, Strak-Nork, Solar blob and 20-30 RRs for months now - anybody who uses similar lists realise that melee guard is not a poor idea.
Yeah the Straak-Nork is the primo combination, throwing in some mortal wounds, lethal hits on Nork and additional AP from the Catachans plus the fact that you can get Straken a 4+FNP gives the combo brutal output and is surprisingly tanky
Although combat guard is not usually the best option, it might take an enemy by surprise, and in WTC terrain where shooting is less effective... I am currently thinking about developing a shooting in combat list. (1000 points, straken 50 guardsmen, 2 demolishers and 2 hellhounds)
I've had good melee results using a catachan brick led by a command squad with ogryn bodyguard and a psyker inquisitor. In total the unit softens stuff up with 8d6 torrent attacks (also making it killer on overwatch) and the extra AP and strength on the charge combined with fix bayonets makes all the melee weapons of the inquisitor, bodyguard, and the command squad chew through most targets I've put them into.
The Cadian Castellan plus the Command Squad is pretty punchy on paper, but they don't do well against anything serious. I've not tried the Ogryn bodyguard, that might be the key, but i've found the Preachers, Servitors and Enginseers to only do okay. A dedicated melee guard list probably needs Death Korps of Krieg and not my beloved Cadians sadly, but mixing a Command Squad and a Preacher might be worthwhile! I'm going to try to make melee Cadians work in the future, and maybe Ogryns are whats needed, but I'd rather not use those personally.
You could also take a platoon command squad with power fists, attach an ogryn bodyguard with the huge knife to them and put them into a catachan squad with straken as well. The power fists would be strength 7 and ap 3 and the ogryns huge knife would be strength 9 and ap 2 all with lethals.
It's a lot of moving parts to micro interacting with randomised charge distances and casualty removal in the shooting phase. I'd always suggest Straken and his lads as the first pick because it's much harder to prevent Straken landing on target. A charge that only partially lands a few of the fists into b2b can lead to a big blowout with you deleting your unit on your own turn and letting your opponent have a turn before you can rectify the board state. Still cool though
For 20 more points take Nork Deddog instead of Ogryn Bodyguard for mortal wounds every time he’s selected to fight. Unless of course he’s in another melee squad already.
There are a couple of close combat-related things that I would love to have when the Imperial Guard / Astra Militarum Codex comes out - not that I think they'll happen, but I think they would open up fun new options for Guard players and make sense in fluff and atmospheric terms, but hopefully without making them too good. Something I would like to see would be some slight improvements for the 'basic' weapons, largely so that people with older models from when you had to pay for Wargear aren't losing out as much compared to super-efficient, competitively optimised armies (for example, the Plasma Pistol is 100% better than the Laspistol and Bolt Pistol in every way, even if not Supercharged). - Strength 4 for Chainswords This would make a slightly interesting alternative to Power Swords/Fists on officers and Sgts - at the moment, both of these 'rare' weapons are far better, and you'd have to be mad to take a humble Chainsword over one. Also, if Eldar Striking SCorpions attak at S4 with them, then more robust humans should as well (I know Scorps are super highly trained, but they've already got lots of attacks, Sustained Hits AND Dev Wounds to represent that). It's not like you can take huge amounts of Chainswords - the most you can take in one go is a Command Section, but they're competing with plasma guns, meltas etc - so I hardly think it would be OP. - A 'bayonet' attack for Lasguns I thought it would be cool to represent the close combat advantages that a Lasgun with a bayonet has over just using a knife, fists or similar. Nothing devastating, just giving the Lasgun a Melee profile (like the Ripper Gun), with the same stats as a CCW but with either [Lethal Hits] or [Lance] added - so the model will lose the bonus if it has a special weapon. Waves of Guardsmen and women charging your lines should be quite a scary prospect, and equally rushing into a forest of bayonets probably isn't a great idea. If Ork Boyz are allowed 3 Attacks, 3s to hit and S4 for only a few points more, I don't see a problem with making Lasgun guys slightly more punchy in melee. It's part of a whole list of tweaks that I think would make the Guard more characterful, including several nerfs (the big one being removing Plasma Guns from the First Rank Fire... Order, but slightly compensating by allowing all small arms to join in), while hiopefully avoiding them becoming OP. But I think it would be really nice if our basic Lasgun Lads and Chainsword Charlies became a bit more effective in hand to hand.
I think Lance would be a bit strong. Wounding super heavies with gaurdsmen on 5's. I think ap1 in melee when charging would be good though. Chainswords could use a strength and ap buff for sure 👍
@@willlondon4964 That's a good point, amusing as the image of Guardsmen bayoneting a Chaos Knight or a Morkanaut into pieces is, it's probably a bit much :D I sometimes forget that everything can harm anything on 6s these days. AP-1 when charging is definitely an option, I was just trying to think of something that could go in the profile (would -1 AP all the time be too much?) and Lethals would match nicely with potential Lethals from shooting when standing still. But I always enjoy seeing what other people think :) I think with chainswords even S4 would be enough - then you have a choice between -2AP on a power sword or the extra Attack with a chainsword. The PS is probably still better overall, but less of a penalty for guys who just happen to have chainswords on their models (and power weapons, plasma pistols etc are mean to be rare!)
Mordian, I will run this fist list. It will be the glory of the empire !!! also, If you say they are as good, or better than your beloved jungle CATs; I believe.
The Strak-Nork is worth losing Scout for. If grenades are thrown first, they do on average take down Angron in 1 round (being an average this isn't of course reliable). With Melee units - Bodyguards are excellent for their points. Melee guard in general is excellent. Bullgryn are one of the best melee units in the game for their points. The Strak-Nork makes holes in the opposing army. RoughRiders are incredibly good, particularly with reinforcements and Rapid Ingress. I'd still pick +1S and -1ap for the whole unit over 1 extra powerfist and some special weapons personally (as that is the only difference to taking this over a Cadian squad). Been running 18 Bullgryn, Strak-Nork, Solar blob and 20-30 RRs for months now - anybody who uses similar lists realise that melee guard is not a poor idea.
Why not keep the "Huge Knife" on the Ogryn Body Guard? You can't really use the Ogryn's profile for defense, so the "shield" options seem more or less useless anyway?
the ogryn is not a character so you can legaly put wounds on him before the bodyguard unit dies. if you do so, you can use his saves. downside is ofc once he lost wounds, he has to take every hit until he dies but it can still be worthwhile if you want to keep the effect of your bodyguard unit in effect for a little longer. also helps to regrow krieg models with the medic
The ants go marching one by one hura hura, The ants go marching one by one hura hura, The ants go marching one by one hura hura, The ants go marching one by one hura hura.
Would you not take the huge knife and ripper gun as lest be fair ther is plants of guardsmen to take wound on and str 8 and 6 attack with the knife over the maul. Plus the ripper gun is like another special weapon
you lost me at munitorum servitors. why would you not trade 2 servo arms for a plasma cannon or muti melta? You only get 1 melee attack per servitor. The other thing is why not add inquisitors you got Corteaz and Draxus adding way more then just 3 power fist attacks. The other thing is when you mentioned throwing away 25 points to boost the enginseer...... man just add scout sentinel as the toss away engine.
They say they named a bridge after Creed but had to rename it because noone dared Cross Creed
😂
that sounds a lot like something they said about Marbo.
Once I told my 20 man squad of cadians to charge a wounded BA assault intercessor. They finished off the unit but wounded Tycho who killed 10 in fight back.
Next round as the defender my platoon commander and cadian Castellan killed Tycho with their powerfists.
I always forget about the cadia stands ability when I play.
Always waiting for the "BUT WAIT!, THERE'S MORE!" xDDD
Mordian, you just wait till you look at the power of a Hades Breaching Drill with an Ursula Creed and Kasrkin attached.
Comedy points for the comedically sized drill and the amount of orders you get as well as a free stratagem makes it quite funny.
One huge thing that I think is worth mentioning is that if you include an Ogryn Bodyguard in a unit the entire unit becomes T6 since the rules commentary states that you use the highest Toughness value in the unit when rolling to wound.
Edit: Nevermind I'm wrong. You use the T value of the bodyguard unit and the Ogryn is part of the Command Squad.
I always thought it was the average toughness
Unfortunately it's only when the command squad is by itself.
You use the toughness of the bodyguard unit when they are attached.
I get the confusion that the ogryn bodyguard is not a "bodyguard unit" but instead part of the command squad
@@LynKrieger They may have updated it. I'm referencing Page 15 of the rules commentary. If there is something more recent than that let me know. I think it came out a while ago.
The rules blurb on the Ogryn Bodyguard/Attaches say that they become members of the squad.
Edit: Disregard this, another commenter cleared this up for me.
@@billyfan149 this makes sense other you would see Nork and 3 in every list T6 Kroger’s with a 5+ FNP
@@billyfan149 Ah okay. That's why it works when you run the Tempestus Command squad with the Ogryn Bodyguard but not when they join a Scion squad. Thanks for clarifying.
On that topic, whats your opinion on the Ogryn/Attaches gaining Deep Strike since they become members of the unit and the unit has the Deep Strike ability. Is that legit?
If you really want to max attacks bring nork deddog, his knife is S8, always hits on twos and makes 6 attacks at damage 2, and every time he fights he will do a few mortals. And he has a 5+ fnp and gives his officers a 4+ fnp
Is it possible to take a catachan squad (10 or 20) and add 2 enginseers and 2 units of servitors to it?
If so you could put them in reserve with a Hades Breaching Drill. Then you Rapid Ingress with the drill and bring the squad in with it.
It can’t order itself but a Master Vox might have range to it. And for 25 points a cyclops can easily fit into strategic reserve to hopefully die near the enginseers to buff them.
It’s not terrible, but it’s also a lot of points for something that is only “not terrible”.
I run my Catachans in a similar way. Command squad, bodyguard, straken, and the other unit has Lord Solar in mirrored fashion. It hits damn hard even in that form.
13:35 What is this OGRYN doing on screen?!
Another amazing video and find from Mordian here! What a legend!
The Strak-Nork is worth losing Scout for. If grenades are thrown first, they do on average take down Angron in 1 round (being an average this isn't of course reliable).
With Melee units - Bodyguards are excellent for their points.
Melee guard in general is excellent. Bullgryn are one of the best melee units in the game for their points. The Strak-Nork makes holes in the opposing army. RoughRiders are incredibly good, particularly with reinforcements and Rapid Ingress.
I'd still pick +1S and -1ap for the whole unit over 1 extra powerfist and some special weapons personally (as that is the only difference to taking this over a Cadian squad). 19 st7 ap3 is going to be far better than 22 st6 ap2. Although worth noting Cadia stands would be an excellent rule in the current Custodes -1D meta.
Been running 18 Bullgryn, Strak-Nork, Solar blob and 20-30 RRs for months now - anybody who uses similar lists realise that melee guard is not a poor idea.
For some reason this posted twice before I edited it
Yeah the Straak-Nork is the primo combination, throwing in some mortal wounds, lethal hits on Nork and additional AP from the Catachans plus the fact that you can get Straken a 4+FNP gives the combo brutal output and is surprisingly tanky
One minute into this video and my Strakken model is already pissed.
Although combat guard is not usually the best option, it might take an enemy by surprise, and in WTC terrain where shooting is less effective...
I am currently thinking about developing a shooting in combat list. (1000 points, straken 50 guardsmen, 2 demolishers and 2 hellhounds)
Already been doing power fists on Castellan and platoon commanders. Works good in my opinion!
I've had good melee results using a catachan brick led by a command squad with ogryn bodyguard and a psyker inquisitor. In total the unit softens stuff up with 8d6 torrent attacks (also making it killer on overwatch) and the extra AP and strength on the charge combined with fix bayonets makes all the melee weapons of the inquisitor, bodyguard, and the command squad chew through most targets I've put them into.
The Cadian Castellan plus the Command Squad is pretty punchy on paper, but they don't do well against anything serious. I've not tried the Ogryn bodyguard, that might be the key, but i've found the Preachers, Servitors and Enginseers to only do okay. A dedicated melee guard list probably needs Death Korps of Krieg and not my beloved Cadians sadly, but mixing a Command Squad and a Preacher might be worthwhile! I'm going to try to make melee Cadians work in the future, and maybe Ogryns are whats needed, but I'd rather not use those personally.
You could also take a platoon command squad with power fists, attach an ogryn bodyguard with the huge knife to them and put them into a catachan squad with straken as well. The power fists would be strength 7 and ap 3 and the ogryns huge knife would be strength 9 and ap 2 all with lethals.
It's a lot of moving parts to micro interacting with randomised charge distances and casualty removal in the shooting phase. I'd always suggest Straken and his lads as the first pick because it's much harder to prevent Straken landing on target. A charge that only partially lands a few of the fists into b2b can lead to a big blowout with you deleting your unit on your own turn and letting your opponent have a turn before you can rectify the board state.
Still cool though
I think I’m going to build my Guard this way. Its rule of cool is too high not to. If I loose every game I’m going out swinging.
For 20 more points take Nork Deddog instead of Ogryn Bodyguard for mortal wounds every time he’s selected to fight. Unless of course he’s in another melee squad already.
There are a couple of close combat-related things that I would love to have when the Imperial Guard / Astra Militarum Codex comes out - not that I think they'll happen, but I think they would open up fun new options for Guard players and make sense in fluff and atmospheric terms, but hopefully without making them too good.
Something I would like to see would be some slight improvements for the 'basic' weapons, largely so that people with older models from when you had to pay for Wargear aren't losing out as much compared to super-efficient, competitively optimised armies (for example, the Plasma Pistol is 100% better than the Laspistol and Bolt Pistol in every way, even if not Supercharged).
- Strength 4 for Chainswords
This would make a slightly interesting alternative to Power Swords/Fists on officers and Sgts - at the moment, both of these 'rare' weapons are far better, and you'd have to be mad to take a humble Chainsword over one. Also, if Eldar Striking SCorpions attak at S4 with them, then more robust humans should as well (I know Scorps are super highly trained, but they've already got lots of attacks, Sustained Hits AND Dev Wounds to represent that).
It's not like you can take huge amounts of Chainswords - the most you can take in one go is a Command Section, but they're competing with plasma guns, meltas etc - so I hardly think it would be OP.
- A 'bayonet' attack for Lasguns
I thought it would be cool to represent the close combat advantages that a Lasgun with a bayonet has over just using a knife, fists or similar. Nothing devastating, just giving the Lasgun a Melee profile (like the Ripper Gun), with the same stats as a CCW but with either [Lethal Hits] or [Lance] added - so the model will lose the bonus if it has a special weapon. Waves of Guardsmen and women charging your lines should be quite a scary prospect, and equally rushing into a forest of bayonets probably isn't a great idea. If Ork Boyz are allowed 3 Attacks, 3s to hit and S4 for only a few points more, I don't see a problem with making Lasgun guys slightly more punchy in melee.
It's part of a whole list of tweaks that I think would make the Guard more characterful, including several nerfs (the big one being removing Plasma Guns from the First Rank Fire... Order, but slightly compensating by allowing all small arms to join in), while hiopefully avoiding them becoming OP. But I think it would be really nice if our basic Lasgun Lads and Chainsword Charlies became a bit more effective in hand to hand.
I think Lance would be a bit strong. Wounding super heavies with gaurdsmen on 5's.
I think ap1 in melee when charging would be good though.
Chainswords could use a strength and ap buff for sure 👍
@@willlondon4964 That's a good point, amusing as the image of Guardsmen bayoneting a Chaos Knight or a Morkanaut into pieces is, it's probably a bit much :D I sometimes forget that everything can harm anything on 6s these days. AP-1 when charging is definitely an option, I was just trying to think of something that could go in the profile (would -1 AP all the time be too much?) and Lethals would match nicely with potential Lethals from shooting when standing still. But I always enjoy seeing what other people think :)
I think with chainswords even S4 would be enough - then you have a choice between -2AP on a power sword or the extra Attack with a chainsword. The PS is probably still better overall, but less of a penalty for guys who just happen to have chainswords on their models (and power weapons, plasma pistols etc are mean to be rare!)
3x Units of 6 Bullgryn. Max out on indirect fire. Gg
Mordian, I will run this fist list. It will be the glory of the empire !!! also, If you say they are as good, or better than your beloved jungle CATs; I believe.
'Beat someone off the objective' 😅
The Strak-Nork is worth losing Scout for. If grenades are thrown first, they do on average take down Angron in 1 round (being an average this isn't of course reliable).
With Melee units - Bodyguards are excellent for their points.
Melee guard in general is excellent. Bullgryn are one of the best melee units in the game for their points. The Strak-Nork makes holes in the opposing army. RoughRiders are incredibly good, particularly with reinforcements and Rapid Ingress.
I'd still pick +1S and -1ap for the whole unit over 1 extra powerfist and some special weapons personally (as that is the only difference to taking this over a Cadian squad).
Been running 18 Bullgryn, Strak-Nork, Solar blob and 20-30 RRs for months now - anybody who uses similar lists realise that melee guard is not a poor idea.
How are you getting Deddog and Straken in the same group?
@@DeprivedSage PCS can join catachans afaik and deddog can join the PCS.
@@DeprivedSage Platoon Command Squad
Does anyone know of a link to pictures for the Lord Solar Model at 0:19? I really like the color scheme of it
Would be fun to watch this in a battle report ^_^
Why not keep the "Huge Knife" on the Ogryn Body Guard? You can't really use the Ogryn's profile for defense, so the "shield" options seem more or less useless anyway?
the ogryn is not a character so you can legaly put wounds on him before the bodyguard unit dies. if you do so, you can use his saves. downside is ofc once he lost wounds, he has to take every hit until he dies but it can still be worthwhile if you want to keep the effect of your bodyguard unit in effect for a little longer. also helps to regrow krieg models with the medic
The ants go marching one by one hura hura, The ants go marching one by one hura hura, The ants go marching one by one hura hura, The ants go marching one by one hura hura.
If u stick them in a crassus u keep them safe till u need the
All that with a Feel No Pain 6+
The Cadian Castellan has still weapon skill 4+ not 3+ thats only his Ballistic skill.
Would you not take the huge knife and ripper gun as lest be fair ther is plants of guardsmen to take wound on and str 8 and 6 attack with the knife over the maul. Plus the ripper gun is like another special weapon
2 from the servitors not 4 tho
Let’s hope you do t use these guys to make another player cry again lol😅
Why does everyone say “combat” why not just “in melee”. Like shoot could also be considered “in combat”.
you lost me at munitorum servitors. why would you not trade 2 servo arms for a plasma cannon or muti melta? You only get 1 melee attack per servitor. The other thing is why not add inquisitors you got Corteaz and Draxus adding way more then just 3 power fist attacks. The other thing is when you mentioned throwing away 25 points to boost the enginseer...... man just add scout sentinel as the toss away engine.
Second!!!😂
I CALLED THIS OUT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE EDITION BUT EVERYONE SAID YOU ONLY NEED KRIEG.
WHOS LAUGHING NOW!?
FIX BAYONETTS! IN HIS NAME! DRIVE THEM SIR!