i got some klotz techniplate synthetic 2 stroke oil to dump in my 8v92 turbo 2 stroke. i like so far and the engine is quite and smoother now but boy its not cheap, bummer.
@@Leemur2335 they could be driven by a pulsed plasmoid impulse ar explosion using radiant force. Nicola Tesla used violent impulse ar distruptor DC from his arc impulse devices to tap into the aether for radiant force
Just when you thought that Detroit was going to give up, it dug deep in the hollows of its gianourmous set of nutz and started rolling more coal and pulled that sled out the gate.
@@ryanehlis426 i dont like the series 60 4 joke i got a 8v92 silver, yesh the 60 has roller bearings and can be converted to a 2 stroke but i like the original 2 strokes better. Achates power is making a 10.6L 10600 cc op 2 stroke and running a few in a freight liner 579. Also most 4 strokes here have a 2 stroke counter part in the spirit realm!
@@jlo13800.... I don't know what it is that your "on", but whatever it is... is causing some rather severe hallucinations in your cranium. Just FYI.... the Series 40, 50 and 60 engines CANNOT be "converted to a 2 stroke" in any way, shape or form. The "60 has roller bearings"??!!? You better let the Reliabilt Div. of Detroit Diesel know about that, because they seem to keep forgetting to include them in their rebuild kits for the 50 & 60 Series engines... instead of including upper & lower plain bearings for the rods & mains. Have a nice day. : )
All Detroit diesels had blowers/superchargers. The 2 cycle nature meant it had to have to be efficient. The v series was turbocharged an supercharged. This is where 6 71 blowers an 8 71 blowers came from. The gasoline guys retrofitted them to use on gasoline engines. They proved to add a substantial amount of power thus worth more work to use at higher rpm. The really old 6 71 blowers were pinned an stripped as it was called. The process allowed higher boost an more strength in the rotors which were for low rpm engines.
Actually, they won't run with no scavenging blower. All 2 stroke diesels are like this. Now they are turbocharged with no roots blower. They have no bottom end, so they are run at a high RPM.
Beautiful sounding beast! I also loved the earth shattering power of the Allison aircraft engined tractors! Shake the paint flakes off the grandstand rafters!
yeah them big 1710 CID v-12 2 strokes, how about a crecy. Unfortunatly about 6 Teska motors could make more power.mart.cummins.com/imagelibrary/data/assetfiles/0058689.pdf
@@jeffwalker9122 yeah i got an 8v92 and i work on a dive boat, 16v92 for thruster and winch and 200kw 1200 rpm 12v71 480v gens. the 12v71 can go 425 kw with twin turbo at 1800 rpm's. Alco 2 strokes are the mains. the detriots run anti friction bearings. Im running XD-100 in my silver 8v92 turbo, takes about 7 gallons at 48.50 a gallon.
@@edwardcalvert Rotax should come out with a v8, v12 and v162 stroke etec engine of about 230 CID per cylnder.I like the rotax 850 etec turbo r in skidoo.
I use to run a Timberjack cable skidder with a 453 Detroit. Straight pipe. My God, what a way to go deaf. I loved the sound of that screamin Detroit. The only way to run those old Detroits correctly is with 2 throttle positions, idle, and wide open!!! I sure miss that old skidder.😢😢😢
Funny note to your story! I work for the man that built this and we are putting the final touches on the new one a 8030 with the twin turbo version of the motor in it. We had it out the other day and I took a video of it and there was a Timber Jack they use to trim the trees on the power lines cumming up the road and you could hear it in the back round. After the owner gets his new toy from us I will post the video I took but I don't feel it's right to post it before he gets it!!
Awwwww yeah.i can remember as a little kid my grandpa had a 435 John Deere. It was a 2-53 detroit in it.would love to find another just for sentimental reasons.would sit on the hood facing backwards as grandpa would unload silage to feed the cows
Full Pull ! Detroit Diesel 2 Cycle Engines are the beasts of Diesels. No Turbocharger so it's a 12v71N. All 2 Cycle Detroits have to have a Supercharger though. It's called a Roots Blower system where the cylinders have sleeves with small inlet ports that high pressure air is forced through into the cylinder. When the piston is below the ports, that air forces out the exhaust at the same time it is replenished with fresh air. Also they only have exhaust valves in the cylinder head, no intake valves. Quite the technology for being historic engines! :)
Don't forget the overhead cams for the exhaust valves, the common rail fuel system and direct injection! All the 'new' tech that's going in common cars is actually ~90 - 100 years old. Otto cycle gasoline engines are finally catching up technologically with these old diesels!
BC Logger Well..... your correct on everything, except... if I may, on the "high pressure air"..... it's not, it's "high Volume".... Roots blowers, do Not, and cannot "compress / pressurize / supercharge/ or boost".... air flow, it is... in it's purest form, strictly an "air pump or, air mover"..... no different whatsoever than any common house fan, except that it employs "rotors" rather than "blades" for the sake of making use of tight space, and does so, really well. The "rootes" design comes directly from the "Rootes - Connersville" industrial blowers developed back in 1938 and used, (among other applications) primarily for feeding fresh air into mines... and also for exhausting large volumes of "dirty" air in large industrial applications of the era. The design is excellent for moving large volumes of air, when there is a minimal amount of space available for the blower itself.... and is also (to this day) widely use in supplying air for numerous industrial applications.... it's a very Simple and basically trouble free design, but in and of itself, cannot "supercharge" air flow.... because by design, it is impossible to compress the airflow. Read my reply above, to "Joseph Schewe" on the subject..... if you wish. Have a great day & take care. PS: Are you from "BC" ?? IF so... what part ?
2Stroke Diesel Power This blower type first patented in 1860! One could assume the development preceded this date. No 'E' in Roots BTW :) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_Blower_Company I believe the Roots design CAN compress air but Detroit Diesel calculated the swept volume of their 2 strokes around the blower displacement and blower RPM rather than vice verse though I could well be wrong about that. Your description re volume is generally very accurate when considering the DD. "In of itself" you're correct they generally can't compress air but in a supercharger application they can and do considering the higher revs petrol engines attain. Also, the clearances are tighter in a supercharger and the blower lobes have seals. Boost pressures are varied by changing the drive ratio of the blower - sometimes 150% crankshaft overdrive, 1:1 or even underdrive. Consider The DD power rating charts: power drops off with elevation increase, temperature increase and a combination of both. The big advantage of the turbocharger is the free spooling (ie independent of crankshaft speed) of the design allows rated horsepower to be maintained at all adiabatic temps and density altitudes (up to about 18000ft). The poor old blower cannot do this because it is geared to the crank so each blower revolution yields a known displacement (usually at a datum of 1013.3hpa @ 15deg C @ sea level) and as the air density changes with pressure height then the amount of air available for pumping gets less so power drops off. Even in a Supercharger application this occurs.
+ThePaulv12 Hi Paul.... Thanks for your reply and correction on the spelling.... it was very late at night when I wrote that... and wasn't completely with it. Actually, my spelling of "Rootes" is correct.... in the sense that I was also thinking of another 2 cycle engine manufacturer in England which use to produce a 2 cycle for Comer "Lorries" (Trucks) and the British spelling was "Rootes" for their blowers. Just mixed them up... anyway, I stand corrected either way. As far as the Roots blowers themselves.... they are, by design... totally incapable of "building boost". What most people confuse with boost when used as "superchargers" on anything from diesels to "Fuel" motors in drag racing.... is NOT "supercharged" or, "boosted" (raised Above atmospheric pressure) air, whatsoever..... what IS happening is a Greater Volume of air is being pushed into the airbox (on a DD) or intake manifold plenum at a greater rate than the engine can injest..... resulting in Backpressure between the valve heads (or cylinder liner ports, in a DD) and the outlet side of the blower in effect raising above atmospheric pressure..... but, again.. the Roots Type Blowers in and of themselves, by design... are totally incapable of producing "boosted" air. There Are blowers produced by certain builders(Kenne Bell, Bendix, and larger Alchy and Fuel motor, blowers) that "look similar" to roots blowers.... but, are not..... and in fact are small Lysholm Screw Blowers..... which ARE capable of... and in fact DO, produce boosted air..... as in, when the air leaves the "exhaust" port end of the housing, it is in fact under pressure or Boosted. Lysham Blowers (Type - not a "brand") consist of two interlocking "rotors" which resemble machine screws... one small, one large which actually takes the injested air flow and compresses it from the "big end" of the housing (intake end) and squeezes it down to a smaller area within the housings exhaust port end, effectively causing greatly increased pressure upon exit.... very similar to what takes place within the confines of the compressor scroll side of a turbocharger. Roots blowers by design, are strictly Air "Movers".... not, "compressors"...... any increase of air pressure when used in conjunction with internal combustion engines of whatever type.... is purely a result of excess air volume resulting in backpressure, showing as "boost".... which is produced with the confines of whatever given engine.... and NOT withing the blower housing, itself. As far as GM Diesel (as it was branded from the beginning) is concerned.... you had the right "formula".... only reversed..... the blower cfm / displacements / rotor speed ratios were calculated around the needs of each engine within it's "family".
Yes, you were referring to the Rootes Group and the Commer Knocker that thermodynamically speaking, was particularly efficient at turning fuel into noise. I am familliar with the Lysholm compressor. Mazda Eunos?? had a Miller Cycle V6 awhile back. The thing with a blower on a Detroit Diesel and GM EMD 2 strokes is the blower is required for scavenging the exhaust from the cylinders. Since all the work in piston engines is done by 90deg crank angle from TDC, the residual combustion pressure is used to begin the exhaust cycle. This goes for 2 and 4 stroke engines BTW. In a 2 stroke Diesel there is insufficient time to clear the cylinder since there is no dedicated exhaust stroke. Also, this 'clearing' must occur in far fewer crankshaft degrees than a 4 stroke motor. This is where the blower really shines. The inertia of exhaust gas flow is begun with the residual combustion pressure combined (of course by the exhaust valves opening). Since the blower is only moving air (as opposed to fuel and air) then the exhaust valves can be held opened until air is actually flowing into the exhaust system. This scavenging by the blower is particularly effective. The cost of blowing air into the exhaust is a pumping loss (loss incurred in the production of power) and is partly the reason 2 strokes are out of fashion currently. The unit injector arrangement of DD 2 strokes is another reason. To get big power big tips are required in the injectors. This means idling and revs below the power band results in high hydrocarbon emissions due to unburnt fuel. DDEC as used in Silver Series (8V92TT) 2 strokes went a fair way to eliminating this problem.
The age old formula: work (torque, what's needed here) = force (cylinder pressure) × distance (stroke). In stock form, the 12v71N engine itself didn't have much torque (~1250 ft. lbs.) due to low cylinder pressure (compression) + Rootes blower (minimal boost) and "shorter" stroke. They relied on the producing HP. That's why they turn high RPMs, where the HP is made, which supplements the lower torque. As seen, big tires and low gear ratio increase available torque. However, with modifications, bigger injectors, blower and gearing/tire size mods (offsetting the first mentioned factory engine limitations) they can pull if they don't break something first.
Derek VanBrugge I know. (Showing my age) In the late 70s and early 80s I drove a couple of over the road trucks with the 12v71 motor. One was an N model and the other was a TA (turbo and aftercooled.) With the exception of Macks Maxidyne engines, most diesels of that era (Caterpillar, Cummins and the DD) the factory operating RPM range was between 1600-2100 RPM. Since the DD engines didn't produce much torque at lower RPMs (~1600 RPMs) because it is a 2 stroke, it performed much better at higher RPMs (2100 and higher), where it produced the most HP.
Just think if they pumped that exhaust into a big turbo on top of that supercharger and maybe done an injector swap what kind of power they would have generated !!! It's still very impressive though !!! I love these ol 2 stroke Detroit's I learned how to work on these fresh out of college many years ago !!!
These engines in a boat, produce upwards of 1500 horsepower.. 8v92 on land is a 500 hp engine.. A boat 8v92 will dyno at 1400 hp.. No epa rules on water, and unlimited water to cool turbo's and exhaust..
KBS117..... as one who has worked with Detroit Diesel in years past, I can tell you that your power output figures.... are Way Off base. In certain Highly modified (racing) applications, these numbers are attainable.... but in general public use for pleasure craft, etc..... absolutely Not. The Maximum output levels for an 8-92TiB for example, that could be covered under warranty in marine applications is approximately 680 - 720hp while retaining any degree of reliable longevity and overall reliability. There are a couple of noteworthy after-market builders of Detroit Diesel Marine Engines who can custom build Higher Output engines, and have their own limited warrantee's.... however, even their engines Do Not produce the hp outputs that you are claiming that they do. There were several 12-71 Detroit Diesels in the NTPA - Super-Semis Pro Sled pulling class a number of years back that were producing some incredible power levels... but due to a combination of the NTPA's refusal to even out the class and the increasing number of "big money" built, large displacement 4 cycle diesels the V12's slowly disappeared.
@@Romans--bo7br you are Talking land based, epa engines. I'm talking marine and military. Was at the volvo marine dd rebuilder in lake Charles l.a. watched them dyno a military 8v92 with water cooled turbos. It was sitting on 900 horses at 70% throttle. Guy, told me, maxed out it would do 1200 for short periods. He said, the turbo is all that limits horsepower on land based engines. They melt off the manifolds at anything over 700.. water cooled turbos can run much higher h.p. without problems. He also stated they had some military stuff that would do 1400 in short emergency burst for 30 seconds. I laugh at your assumed expert opinion.. they can crank 5000 h.p. out of a cat or Cummins for a tractor pull, but can't do it on this engine? Go back to your coloring book.
@@KBS117..... I'm not about to waste my time quibbling with someone who, apparently does Not know how to read with Understanding, nor with someone who childishly uses insulting phrases such as "Go back to your coloring book." Have a nice life.
@@KBS117.... Thanks for your reply, again. With regards to your Original comment.... specifically regarding - "These engines in a boat, produce upwards of 1500 horsepower." The way you worded it, seems to relate to the Series 71, V12... as in the video of this sled puller, correct? IF so... what injectors are being used to attain that much horsepower, and at what engine speed, in the marine applications that are producing upwards of 1500hp? Just an honest question to you.
The blower(s) are used for crankcase scavenging ONLY. They do not provide any boost. If you want to see the big brother to these engines, look up the EMD 567, 645 & 710 series locomotive prime movers.
papabugs71 Good grief.... don't know where folks get some of their "knowledge" from... at least in regards to this "discussion" on DD's. The Blower(s) are NOT... "used for crankcase scavenging ONLY"......... their NOT used for that purpose, whatsoever. They are there for "Cylinder scavenging (partly)" with fresh air.... and when the blower rotors & and case are "in spec" and all is well..... the cylinder air, will enter... under about 4 psi (average).... but only due to "back pressure" as the blower provides more Volume than the engine requires.
2Stroke Diesel Power He might be thinking of the "standard" 2 stroke design where the air first goes into the crank case. I'm not sure that is the case however with all 2 stroke engines including DD's
Agreed. They're great industrial engines, but I've always heard that in a truck, you'd never catch these things on level ground, but they could not pull a hill worth a damn.
just something about a Detroit diesel engine sound. It's one of a kind sound diesel wise. wonder if they have a flat plane crank, would definitely explain the nice sound. this is why Italian sports cars sound so much better than the likes of the mustang and other American V-8 engines. The firing order causes an enhancing exhaust harmonic wear as a cross plane has a canceling effect. Not sure I explained that right if anyone wants to correct me feel free. :)
That's a buzzin dozen if I've ever heard one. And you could hear when the load increased significantly at the end of the track and yet it kept on pulling. Can't do that with today's junk...
Keep your eyes out it's built and waiting to be delivered to the owner. You should see it later this year. I have it on video but won't post it until the customer gets it!
Keep your eyes out it's built and waiting to be delivered to the owner. You should see it later this year. I have it on video but won't post it until the customer gets it!
Thats the general story for diesels. Horsepower is a function of torque and RPM. As far as power goes, a 12v71 (14L) will make 450hp and 1300lb ft without a turbo, 550 and 1500-1600 in turbocharged form. Really close to modern C15s and ISX engines (about a decade) which I'd say is respectable for an engine from the 60s
DoubleVisionandco pound for pound you mean inch for inch a 4 stroke with the same cylinder count will be a massive displacement compared to a 2 stroke pound for pound and diesel mechanics agree a 2 stroke is pound for pound a better power house
jdr ok...... it takes a 4 cycle diesel of approximately 33 percent More ci to produce the same amount of power output as a 2 cycle Detroit.... or most any 2 cycle diesel of similar design. All the "Large" diesels in the world that are used in very large industrial and Especially in large marine applications that are in excess of 45,000 to 50,000 hp.... are ALL 2 cycle design.
DoubleVisionandco..... Not entirely true, Detroit (2cycles) produced (still do) more power PER Cubic Inch of displacement, than Any of the 4 cycle diesels (Cat, Mack, Cummins, etc) ever did... even after they started turbocharging the 4 cycle diesels for truck use (mostly starting in the 1970's). Prior to that time period, when ALL of the diesels in heavy truck use (OTR semis, etc.) were NA (Naturally Aspirated).... the 2 cycle GM Diesels were literally "king of the Hill" (mountain grades), as they would regularly "walk all over" the 4 cycle diesels, loaded or empty... especially in the mountain grades.
Everyone goes on and on about 2 cycle engines, V engines, like they are by far the best ever. Then where are they today? How many farm tractors are using them? Over the road trucks? Construction? I’m an ASE truck technician, and worked as a technician for CaseIH for years. An in-line 6 is the one with the torque. Period.
Авто/Мото
We had Detroits on our boats. Nothing else sounds like them. Pure raw power. Took us out and got us back every time.
spent a lot of time taking care of 6-71s
i got some klotz techniplate synthetic 2 stroke oil to dump in my 8v92 turbo 2 stroke. i like so far and the engine is quite and smoother now but boy its not cheap, bummer.
JD and GM, two of my favorites combined.
That 2 atroke 12v71 block out the sun whence it helps with global cooling LOL!
@@jlo13800eat ya heart out greenies 👍🇦🇺
"Combines"
The sound of an unmuffled Detroit. Music to my ears.
Anyones ears within a hundred-mile radius 🤣
What
Puts some tuned expansion chambers on this 2 stroke, i would love to see that..
The 2 stroke is concentrated energy, like a lightning bolt
@@Leemur2335 they could be driven by a pulsed plasmoid impulse ar explosion using radiant force. Nicola Tesla used violent impulse ar distruptor DC from his arc impulse devices to tap into the aether for radiant force
Just when you thought that Detroit was going to give up, it dug deep in the hollows of its gianourmous set of nutz and started rolling more coal and pulled that sled out the gate.
HELL yeah !!
@@scottcupp8129 Its a 2 stroke
@@scottcupp8129absolutely very deceiving 👍🇦🇺
Well the book was moving slow enough he should have took it home
😂😂😂😂
I love when they pull with stock looking tractors
Ah, the sights, sounds, and smells of a county fair!
Nothing wrong with a Detroit, wide open or shut off! LOL. AWESOME SOUND AND POWER. Excellent transplant.
Buzzing Dozen never broke a sweat!
Imagine just plowing away in the fields with this beast. Mowing the lawn, or even just pulling some equipment. Great looking toy man
The sound of that 2 stroke Detroit gives goose bumps!
i got to got my silver 8v92 out back running.
I’m jelious, I love those 2 stroke Detroit’s. My freight linger has a 60 series.
@@ryanehlis426 i dont like the series 60 4 joke i got a 8v92 silver, yesh the 60 has roller bearings and can be converted to a 2 stroke but i like the original 2 strokes better. Achates power is making a 10.6L 10600 cc op 2 stroke and running a few in a freight liner 579. Also most 4 strokes here have a 2 stroke counter part in the spirit realm!
@@ryanehlis426 the sun is a giant 2 stroke and burns oil at 32;1
@@jlo13800.... I don't know what it is that your "on", but whatever it is... is causing some rather severe hallucinations in your cranium. Just FYI.... the Series 40, 50 and 60 engines CANNOT be "converted to a 2 stroke" in any way, shape or form. The "60 has roller bearings"??!!? You better let the Reliabilt Div. of Detroit Diesel know about that, because they seem to keep forgetting to include them in their rebuild kits for the 50 & 60 Series engines... instead of including upper & lower plain bearings for the rods & mains. Have a nice day. : )
Yeah the only reason he stopped was because he was at the end of the line!
Now that’s a “Green New Deal” that I can support!
That's a nice piece of badassery right there.
All Detroit diesels had blowers/superchargers. The 2 cycle nature meant it had to have to be efficient. The v series was turbocharged an supercharged. This is where 6 71 blowers an 8 71 blowers came from. The gasoline guys retrofitted them to use on gasoline engines. They proved to add a substantial amount of power thus worth more work to use at higher rpm. The really old 6 71 blowers were pinned an stripped as it was called. The process allowed higher boost an more strength in the rotors which were for low rpm engines.
Actually, they won't run with no scavenging blower. All 2 stroke diesels are like this. Now they are turbocharged with no roots blower. They have no bottom end, so they are run at a high RPM.
@@strobx1 "Now they are turbocharged with no roots blower." Wrong. All DD 2 cycle engines had a blower.
"The v series was turbocharged an supercharged." Nope. DD built 2 stroke V engines with or without a turbo.
Beautiful sounding beast! I also loved the earth shattering power of the Allison aircraft engined tractors! Shake the paint flakes off the grandstand rafters!
yeah them big 1710 CID v-12 2 strokes, how about a crecy. Unfortunatly about 6 Teska motors could make more power.mart.cummins.com/imagelibrary/data/assetfiles/0058689.pdf
@@jlo13800 what a thing of beauty!!
@@jeffwalker9122 yeah i got an 8v92 and i work on a dive boat, 16v92 for thruster and winch and 200kw 1200 rpm 12v71 480v gens. the 12v71 can go 425 kw with twin turbo at 1800 rpm's. Alco 2 strokes are the mains. the detriots run anti friction bearings. Im running XD-100 in my silver 8v92 turbo, takes about 7 gallons at 48.50 a gallon.
@@jlo13800 That's a hell of a collection! I grew up farming, so I've always loved the big diesels that came with it. Been a butcher now since 1995.
out back i got a silver 8v92 turbo and a 4l johnson v8 2 stroke small block.
WOW, NOW THAT’S WHAT I CALL AWESOME!!!! LOVE THE SOUND OF THAT BIG SCREAMIN JIMMY!
It's also known as the "Buzzin' Dozen" and you can certainly hear it.
@@edwardcalvert Rotax should come out with a v8, v12 and v162 stroke etec engine of about 230 CID per cylnder.I like the rotax 850 etec turbo r in skidoo.
I use to run a Timberjack cable skidder with a 453 Detroit. Straight pipe. My God, what a way to go deaf. I loved the sound of that screamin Detroit. The only way to run those old Detroits correctly is with 2 throttle positions, idle, and wide open!!! I sure miss that old skidder.😢😢😢
Funny note to your story! I work for the man that built this and we are putting the final touches on the new one a 8030 with the twin turbo version of the motor in it. We had it out the other day and I took a video of it and there was a Timber Jack they use to trim the trees on the power lines cumming up the road and you could hear it in the back round. After the owner gets his new toy from us I will post the video I took but I don't feel it's right to post it before he gets it!!
👍awesome piece of American engine( Detroit Diesel 12v71)
Thanx Kimmy
Bisou
The buzzin' dozen!
*hears a detriot from 80 miles away* QUICK, HIDE DADS ALMOST HOM4
Lovin it! That bad boy has got some power!!
Awwwww yeah.i can remember as a little kid my grandpa had a 435 John Deere. It was a 2-53 detroit in it.would love to find another just for sentimental reasons.would sit on the hood facing backwards as grandpa would unload silage to feed the cows
Thanks friend! I appreciate you checking it out!
You know it's good when it pulls that hard WITHOUT turbos.
It has a supper charger
@@mikealexander3985 It's a 2 stroke.
@@jimvss no shit
The " buzzin dozen" great engines.
Full Pull ! Detroit Diesel 2 Cycle Engines are the beasts of Diesels. No Turbocharger so it's a 12v71N. All 2 Cycle Detroits have to have a Supercharger though. It's called a Roots Blower system where the cylinders have sleeves with small inlet ports that high pressure air is forced through into the cylinder. When the piston is below the ports, that air forces out the exhaust at the same time it is replenished with fresh air. Also they only have exhaust valves in the cylinder head, no intake valves. Quite the technology for being historic engines! :)
Don't forget the overhead cams for the exhaust valves, the common rail fuel system and direct injection! All the 'new' tech that's going in common cars is actually ~90 - 100 years old. Otto cycle gasoline engines are finally catching up technologically with these old diesels!
BC Logger Well..... your correct on everything, except... if I may, on the "high pressure air"..... it's not, it's "high Volume".... Roots blowers, do Not, and cannot "compress / pressurize / supercharge/ or boost".... air flow, it is... in it's purest form, strictly an "air pump or, air mover"..... no different whatsoever than any common house fan, except that it employs "rotors" rather than "blades" for the sake of making use of tight space, and does so, really well.
The "rootes" design comes directly from the "Rootes - Connersville" industrial blowers developed back in 1938 and used, (among other applications) primarily for feeding fresh air into mines... and also for exhausting large volumes of "dirty" air in large industrial applications of the era. The design is excellent for moving large volumes of air, when there is a minimal amount of space available for the blower itself.... and is also (to this day) widely use in supplying air for numerous industrial applications.... it's a very Simple and basically trouble free design, but in and of itself, cannot "supercharge" air flow.... because by design, it is impossible to compress the airflow.
Read my reply above, to "Joseph Schewe" on the subject..... if you wish. Have a great day & take care.
PS: Are you from "BC" ?? IF so... what part ?
2Stroke Diesel Power
This blower type first patented in 1860! One could assume the development preceded this date. No 'E' in Roots BTW :)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_Blower_Company
I believe the Roots design CAN compress air but Detroit Diesel calculated the swept volume of their 2 strokes around the blower displacement and blower RPM rather than vice verse though I could well be wrong about that.
Your description re volume is generally very accurate when considering the DD. "In of itself" you're correct they generally can't compress air but in a supercharger application they can and do considering the higher revs petrol engines attain. Also, the clearances are tighter in a supercharger and the blower lobes have seals. Boost pressures are varied by changing the drive ratio of the blower - sometimes 150% crankshaft overdrive, 1:1 or even underdrive.
Consider The DD power rating charts: power drops off with elevation increase, temperature increase and a combination of both.
The big advantage of the turbocharger is the free spooling (ie independent of crankshaft speed) of the design allows rated horsepower to be maintained at all adiabatic temps and density altitudes (up to about 18000ft).
The poor old blower cannot do this because it is geared to the crank so each blower revolution yields a known displacement (usually at a datum of 1013.3hpa @ 15deg C @ sea level) and as the air density changes with pressure height then the amount of air available for pumping gets less so power drops off.
Even in a Supercharger application this occurs.
+ThePaulv12 Hi Paul.... Thanks for your reply and correction on the spelling.... it was very late at night when I wrote that... and wasn't completely with it. Actually, my spelling of "Rootes" is correct.... in the sense that I was also thinking of another 2 cycle engine manufacturer in England which use to produce a 2 cycle for Comer "Lorries" (Trucks) and the British spelling was "Rootes" for their blowers. Just mixed them up... anyway, I stand corrected either way.
As far as the Roots blowers themselves.... they are, by design... totally incapable of "building boost". What most people confuse with boost when used as "superchargers" on anything from diesels to "Fuel" motors in drag racing.... is NOT "supercharged" or, "boosted" (raised Above atmospheric pressure) air, whatsoever..... what IS happening is a Greater Volume of air is being pushed into the airbox (on a DD) or intake manifold plenum at a greater rate than the engine can injest..... resulting in Backpressure between the valve heads (or cylinder liner ports, in a DD) and the outlet side of the blower in effect raising above atmospheric pressure..... but, again.. the Roots Type Blowers in and of themselves, by design... are totally incapable of producing "boosted" air.
There Are blowers produced by certain builders(Kenne Bell, Bendix, and larger Alchy and Fuel motor, blowers) that "look similar" to roots blowers.... but, are not..... and in fact are small Lysholm Screw Blowers..... which ARE capable of... and in fact DO, produce boosted air..... as in, when the air leaves the "exhaust" port end of the housing, it is in fact under pressure or Boosted.
Lysham Blowers (Type - not a "brand") consist of two interlocking "rotors" which resemble machine screws... one small, one large which actually takes the injested air flow and compresses it from the "big end" of the housing (intake end) and squeezes it down to a smaller area within the housings exhaust port end, effectively causing greatly increased pressure upon exit.... very similar to what takes place within the confines of the compressor scroll side of a turbocharger.
Roots blowers by design, are strictly Air "Movers".... not, "compressors"...... any increase of air pressure when used in conjunction with internal combustion engines of whatever type.... is purely a result of excess air volume resulting in backpressure, showing as "boost".... which is produced with the confines of whatever given engine.... and NOT withing the blower housing, itself.
As far as GM Diesel (as it was branded from the beginning) is concerned.... you had the right "formula".... only reversed..... the blower cfm / displacements / rotor speed ratios were calculated around the needs of each engine within it's "family".
Yes, you were referring to the Rootes Group and the Commer Knocker that thermodynamically speaking, was particularly efficient at turning fuel into noise.
I am familliar with the Lysholm compressor. Mazda Eunos?? had a Miller Cycle V6 awhile back.
The thing with a blower on a Detroit Diesel and GM EMD 2 strokes is the blower is required for scavenging the exhaust from the cylinders.
Since all the work in piston engines is done by 90deg crank angle from TDC, the residual combustion pressure is used to begin the exhaust cycle. This goes for 2 and 4 stroke engines BTW.
In a 2 stroke Diesel there is insufficient time to clear the cylinder since there is no dedicated exhaust stroke. Also, this 'clearing' must occur in far fewer crankshaft degrees than a 4 stroke motor. This is where the blower really shines. The inertia of exhaust gas flow is begun with the residual combustion pressure combined (of course by the exhaust valves opening). Since the blower is only moving air (as opposed to fuel and air) then the exhaust valves can be held opened until air is actually flowing into the exhaust system. This scavenging by the blower is particularly effective.
The cost of blowing air into the exhaust is a pumping loss (loss incurred in the production of power) and is partly the reason 2 strokes are out of fashion currently. The unit injector arrangement of DD 2 strokes is another reason. To get big power big tips are required in the injectors. This means idling and revs below the power band results in high hydrocarbon emissions due to unburnt fuel. DDEC as used in Silver Series (8V92TT) 2 strokes went a fair way to eliminating this problem.
Glad you enjoyed Tec!
Because it's 2 stroke, It sounds like it's turning 7 grand!
Amen! 2200 and things are getting shaky!
It was awesome, I look forward to the pull just to see this thing go!
Bad ass Detroit!!! That's even a non-turbo unit... Still gets 'er down the track.
The age old formula: work (torque, what's needed here) = force (cylinder pressure) × distance (stroke). In stock form, the 12v71N engine itself didn't have much torque (~1250 ft. lbs.) due to low cylinder pressure (compression) + Rootes blower (minimal boost) and "shorter" stroke. They relied on the producing HP. That's why they turn high RPMs, where the HP is made, which supplements the lower torque. As seen, big tires and low gear ratio increase available torque. However, with modifications, bigger injectors, blower and gearing/tire size mods (offsetting the first mentioned factory engine limitations) they can pull if they don't break something first.
Derek VanBrugge I know. (Showing my age) In the late 70s and early 80s I drove a couple of over the road trucks with the 12v71 motor. One was an N model and the other was a TA (turbo and aftercooled.) With the exception of Macks Maxidyne engines, most diesels of that era (Caterpillar, Cummins and the DD) the factory operating RPM range was between 1600-2100 RPM. Since the DD engines didn't produce much torque at lower RPMs (~1600 RPMs) because it is a 2 stroke, it performed much better at higher RPMs (2100 and higher), where it produced the most HP.
i think the 12v71n made 450hp and 1450lb/ft
Wow at 1:35 it sounds like a V8 gasser. What a great sounding detroit diesel.
They are awesome man!
Just think if they pumped that exhaust into a big turbo on top of that supercharger and maybe done an injector swap what kind of power they would have generated !!! It's still very impressive though !!! I love these ol 2 stroke Detroit's I learned how to work on these fresh out of college many years ago !!!
Thanks for checking it out buddy!
Great job on the video👍🏻
What a beautiful sound
He could have pulled that sled forever. That was sweet.
To maintain power in an older Detroit, you had to keep them wound tight
Wow that's impressive!
These engines in a boat, produce upwards of 1500 horsepower.. 8v92 on land is a 500 hp engine.. A boat 8v92 will dyno at 1400 hp.. No epa rules on water, and unlimited water to cool turbo's and exhaust..
KBS117..... as one who has worked with Detroit Diesel in years past, I can tell you that your power output figures.... are Way Off base. In certain Highly modified (racing) applications, these numbers are attainable.... but in general public use for pleasure craft, etc..... absolutely Not. The Maximum output levels for an 8-92TiB for example, that could be covered under warranty in marine applications is approximately 680 - 720hp while retaining any degree of reliable longevity and overall reliability.
There are a couple of noteworthy after-market builders of Detroit Diesel Marine Engines who can custom build Higher Output engines, and have their own limited warrantee's.... however, even their engines Do Not produce the hp outputs that you are claiming that they do.
There were several 12-71 Detroit Diesels in the NTPA - Super-Semis Pro Sled pulling class a number of years back that were producing some incredible power levels... but due to a combination of the NTPA's refusal to even out the class and the increasing number of "big money" built, large displacement 4 cycle diesels the V12's slowly disappeared.
@@Romans--bo7br you are Talking land based, epa engines. I'm talking marine and military. Was at the volvo marine dd rebuilder in lake Charles l.a. watched them dyno a military 8v92 with water cooled turbos. It was sitting on 900 horses at 70% throttle. Guy, told me, maxed out it would do 1200 for short periods. He said, the turbo is all that limits horsepower on land based engines. They melt off the manifolds at anything over 700.. water cooled turbos can run much higher h.p. without problems. He also stated they had some military stuff that would do 1400 in short emergency burst for 30 seconds. I laugh at your assumed expert opinion.. they can crank 5000 h.p. out of a cat or Cummins for a tractor pull, but can't do it on this engine? Go back to your coloring book.
@@KBS117..... I'm not about to waste my time quibbling with someone who, apparently does Not know how to read with Understanding, nor with someone who childishly uses insulting phrases such as "Go back to your coloring book." Have a nice life.
@@Romans--bo7br thank you mr. know it all..you are a nuisance..
@@KBS117.... Thanks for your reply, again. With regards to your Original comment.... specifically regarding - "These engines in a boat, produce upwards of 1500 horsepower." The way you worded it, seems to relate to the Series 71, V12... as in the video of this sled puller, correct? IF so... what injectors are being used to attain that much horsepower, and at what engine speed, in the marine applications that are producing upwards of 1500hp? Just an honest question to you.
Detroit 2 strokers, converting a lot of fuel into loud noise. This old JD sure got a boost though!!
Yes they do make some noise but the proof of power is evident in the video. Just sayin'.
Thank you Dirtbike. Fantastic machines to say the least. Tec
Oh my goodness the sound of a 71 series Detroit gives me a stiffy. That is the sound of eternal torque.
The blower(s) are used for crankcase scavenging ONLY. They do not provide any boost. If you want to see the big brother to these engines, look up the EMD 567, 645 & 710 series locomotive prime movers.
papabugs71 Good grief.... don't know where folks get some of their "knowledge" from... at least in regards to this "discussion" on DD's.
The Blower(s) are NOT... "used for crankcase scavenging ONLY"......... their NOT used for that purpose, whatsoever. They are there for "Cylinder scavenging (partly)" with fresh air.... and when the blower rotors & and case are "in spec" and all is well..... the cylinder air, will enter... under about 4 psi (average).... but only due to "back pressure" as the blower provides more Volume than the engine requires.
2Stroke Diesel Power He might be thinking of the "standard" 2 stroke design where the air first goes into the crank case. I'm not sure that is the case however with all 2 stroke engines including DD's
got some serious power there. cool!
Mother of god talk about the buzzin dozen
Gotta love that big detroit.
Finally! Someone who knows how to do it.
Notmuch on Detroit's for vehicles but the Detroit on the drilling rig I work on it's a solid beast
Agreed. They're great industrial engines, but I've always heard that in a truck, you'd never catch these things on level ground, but they could not pull a hill worth a damn.
everything before 1:25 is mostly idling at no load, those detroits sing best at full load full throttle
He’s got the governor screwed all the way out on that Detroit!
Sweet music
Plenty of power is always good!
That Deere showed all the other ones how it's done!
Deere+DetriotDesiel=💰
Awesome video!!
That Detroit sounds healthy
GIT SOME! love it!
You have to love the sound of a screaming Detroit Diesel!!
Buzen Dozen
Yeah it really put a hurtin' on the ears when he went by!
take that, hippies!!!! hahaha. just think what it would do with a turbo
It has a gear driven roots-type blower. Based on the full pulls, I don't think he needs a turbo?
@@benjamingamble2407 detroits can have turbos added to them and it will add a lot more power. they need the blower just to run
@@benjamingamble2407 they do benefit from a turbo, since the blower only runs at 1-2psi
just something about a Detroit diesel engine sound. It's one of a kind sound diesel wise. wonder if they have a flat plane crank, would definitely explain the nice sound. this is why Italian sports cars sound so much better than the likes of the mustang and other American V-8 engines. The firing order causes an enhancing exhaust harmonic wear as a cross plane has a canceling effect. Not sure I explained that right if anyone wants to correct me feel free. :)
Buzzin' Dozen getting the job done! Haha
Shee it ! Seen origonal in NZ,Earnt wages on a 4040,but this thing music n power,go JIMMY
+Mike Berg Yeah buddy!!
Damm that sound gives me goosebumps
Fuck, that detroit screams 👍👍👍
Looks like the John Deere 5020 that Jim MacFadden of SHaron Springs,NY built
Nothin' Runs like a Deere that's some ground poundin' pullin' Power !!!
In the 30s I believe. The president of GM wanted to put a diesel in a car, the two cycle Jimmy is what they came up with.
Founded 1938
Who hear agrees that the track needs to be longer....? we didnt get to listen long enough.
Yup I thought this was the guy, he's in Burlington county. Has a couple JD's with V12's in them. I saw them all sitting in his barn. How awesome.
I sure would like to get a tour of that barn! Thanks for the comment!
Is that one of thosr kinze converted JD's
That sounded healthy
Was the sled broken? That box never moved until he was well past the halfway point.
He made it look easy.
That's a buzzin dozen if I've ever heard one. And you could hear when the load increased significantly at the end of the track and yet it kept on pulling. Can't do that with today's junk...
1:30 get them potatos sown!
Anyone else notice that he's got a "tight" exhaust valve bridge setting somewhere in what sounds like the left bank (?).
I didn't notice one little thing wrong with this bad little hoss
@@rudybriscoe3697... better listen to it again at idle.
Damn he was gonna just make a turn and drag the sled home as a souvenir
Has a sled ever stopped it??? or does it just keep pullin down the road
He sure did!
Yeah buddy!
Just imagine that thing with 2 turbo's along with the 2 superchargers,, like Buffort T Justice would say woooof.
Checkmate up here in alberta is twin turboed and twin supercharged, shes a beasttttt
Keep your eyes out it's built and waiting to be delivered to the owner. You should see it later this year. I have it on video but won't post it until the customer gets it!
Keep your eyes out it's built and waiting to be delivered to the owner. You should see it later this year. I have it on video but won't post it until the customer gets it!
2 cycle diesel? so noisey, more power ?
hell i’m just watchin tha vidieo an i’m hollerin “ WHAT” to tha dog. lol i bet that dude caint here she@ after he gits off that ride
Detroits didn't put out much horsepower, but that's cool as they weren't meant to, but they produced Amazing torque numbers and that's what counts.
Thats the general story for diesels. Horsepower is a function of torque and RPM.
As far as power goes, a 12v71 (14L) will make 450hp and 1300lb ft without a turbo, 550 and 1500-1600 in turbocharged form. Really close to modern C15s and ISX engines (about a decade) which I'd say is respectable for an engine from the 60s
DoubleVisionandco pound for pound you mean inch for inch a 4 stroke with the same cylinder count will be a massive displacement compared to a 2 stroke pound for pound and diesel mechanics agree a 2 stroke is pound for pound a better power house
DoubleVisionandco yes it is espeically in a tractor
jdr ok...... it takes a 4 cycle diesel of approximately 33 percent More ci to produce the same amount of power output as a 2 cycle Detroit.... or most any 2 cycle diesel of similar design. All the "Large" diesels in the world that are used in very large industrial and Especially in large marine applications that are in excess of 45,000 to 50,000 hp.... are ALL 2 cycle design.
DoubleVisionandco..... Not entirely true, Detroit (2cycles) produced (still do) more power PER Cubic Inch of displacement, than Any of the 4 cycle diesels (Cat, Mack, Cummins, etc) ever did... even after they started turbocharging the 4 cycle diesels for truck use (mostly starting in the 1970's). Prior to that time period, when ALL of the diesels in heavy truck use (OTR semis, etc.) were NA (Naturally Aspirated).... the 2 cycle GM Diesels were literally "king of the Hill" (mountain grades), as they would regularly "walk all over" the 4 cycle diesels, loaded or empty... especially in the mountain grades.
Everyone goes on and on about 2 cycle engines, V engines, like they are by far the best ever. Then where are they today? How many farm tractors are using them? Over the road trucks? Construction? I’m an ASE truck technician, and worked as a technician for CaseIH for years. An in-line 6 is the one with the torque. Period.
No inline v whatever torque requires cubic inch and airflow.
Emissions and economy are what killed these engines, there are actually quite a few of them still in use today.
He was just toying with that sled.
I gotta keep trying though!!☺
I noticed the weight box was barely moving
DETROIT RULES!
Beathiful machine
The Buzzin dozen
Full pull father!!!
was that tractor an actual production machine with that engine, or is that all custom?
Those tractors didn't come from the factories with Detroit Diesels in them.
Parkin' the sled baby!!
POWER!
what a sound alright
Drive it like you're pissed off at it. Only way to run a Jimmy.
This engine can also be found in Semi Trucks