is Plate ALWAYS Better Than Mail Armour?
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
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An armour (spelled armor in the US) is a protective covering that is used to prevent damage from being inflicted to an object, individual, or vehicle by weapons or projectiles, usually during combat, or from damage caused by a potentially dangerous environment or action.
The word "armour" began to appear in the Middle Ages as a derivative of Old French. It is dated from 1297 as a "mail, defensive covering worn in combat". The word originates from the Old French armure, itself derived from the Latin armatura meaning "arms and/or equipment", with the root armare meaning "arms or gear".
Armour has been used throughout recorded history. It has been made from a variety of materials, beginning with rudimentary leather protection and evolving through mail and metal plate into today's modern composites.
Significant factors in the development of armour include the economic and technological necessities of its production. For instance, plate armour first appeared in Medieval Europe when water-powered trip hammers made the formation of plates faster and cheaper.
Well-known armour types in European history include the lorica hamata, lorica squamata, and the lorica segmentata of the Roman legions, the mail hauberk of the early medieval age, and the full steel plate harness worn by later medieval and renaissance knights, and breast and back plates worn by heavy cavalry in several European countries until the first year of World War I (1914-15). The samurai warriors of feudal Japan utilised many types of armour for hundreds of years up to the 19th century.
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What is better Mail, Plate or VPN armour
I think full plate armor better
do you think knights ever wore multiple mail shirts even under plate
@@partnermammoth2562 No they wore VPN armour under the chain mail, then comes the plate on top of that.
Metatron what tips do you have for learning Hebrew? My girlfriend is Jewish and her mum doesn’t speak English?
We should keep in mind that, if we're talking about armour that's not perfectly tailored to the wearer (be it for budget or whatever), mail would be more forgiving. Plate on the other hand would be quite problematic.
Mail can be more easily stored and is also more forgiving in differing environments. You can wear it in the heat, you can pack it around in the mountains, you can wear it whilst sailing about on the opean ocean.
I go half way with Scale Armor
yeah, plate'd be a nightmare for the regimental quartermaster. Someone gets their stuff damaged, you can't just get a spare out of stores.
Another reason for state-funded armies to give mainly mail to their common soldiers.
@@ottovonbismarck7646 Mail would only be a little better than plate in the heat since you'd still be wearing a padded gambeson underneath your mail for maximum protection.
"Butt protection isn't the only thing to consider when we are discussing armour."
@Αθηναίος Οπλίτης with a face like that.... you'll be fine
You need croth protection
Well... if someone try to hit you with a Bollock dagger, butt protection could be a important thing to consider. "Context" remember ?
Ha, I did the inverse of that last year. Built a whole suit of plate armor out of cardboard and metallic ductwork tape, but forgot the butt. That was a pretty awkward Halloween party. Should have worn a cape.
@Αθηναίος Οπλίτης King Julian should protect his feet.
"And Context... i feel like I've just summoned Matt Easton..."
"Hi folks! Matt Easton here, Scholagladiatoria, and i'm taking over Metatron's channel from now on!"
Usually it's "Hi folks," but alright
I was legit expecting sir Easton to actually pop up and do a collab
Don't worry, Matt Easton can only be summoned by saying "context" three times infront of a mirror.
Help! I did as you said and now there is a Matt Easton in my bathroom . He is going on and on about the edge alignment of my shower brush.
Or alternatively penetration penetration penetration or even shaft shaft shaft
Ideally in a dark room, using a polished military sabre
Right. so not saying Shad's or Skal's name 3 times. I can see it now.say Shadiversity 3 times and a loud "Machicolations!!" is heard. Plus I am certain Shad has better things to do than mirror walk. LOL!
*Faces the mirror* Ahem* context... Context *CONTEXT!*
I've never taken "heavy armour" in RPG games to refer to the weight, I've always understood it as heavily protected.
Uh.....really?
@@LikeUntoBuddha yeah "heavy" in reality weights around 20-25kg which is nothing when spread around your body like in the case of plate armor
Then why does heavy armor almost always have a movement penalty? You feel so well protected it drains your stamina?
@@zeabeth Don't forget that in games when the actual weight is displayed you can see that it weight more
@@zeabethIt would drain your stamina faster, especially while fighting.
The padding underneath the armor by itself would insulate about as much heat as thick winter wear.
I would definetely go for german gothic full plate. If I die I want die looking fabulous 🤣
Couldnt agree more!
That would be my choice as well. Gothic armor looks amazing. And I think that, even though I'm not the biggest fan of Salet type helmets
@@caringancoystopitum4224 true, on it's own (the Salet without a bevor) it's a bit bizarre imo. However, when combined with the bevor the Salet makes the entirety of the Gothic Plate Armor looks very futuristic compared to it's plated brethren.
Well, you would look kinda weak and spoiled if you died with so much armor on you
@@IosifStalinsendsyoutoGulag I take it dying getting impaled by a ballista bolt or crushed under a boulder lobbed from a catapult doesn't count?
This video reminded me that crabs and lobsters are just living plate armor creatures
Arthropoda ftw
Armadillos and those things that look like armadillos but aren't?
@@idontwanttoputmyname403 pangolins?
@@sinaparsi6736 gap at the head and gap at the butt.
@@idontwanttoputmyname403 That is not plate but scale armor!
I choose the full mail suit, that way my raggedy untrained corpse is easier to recognize
Between mail and plate, I would choose... to stay on my farm like the peasant I would have been haha
I would choose tank with a machinegun and flamethrower
@@christiandauz3742 Mail or full plate tank ?
Ahh yes a peasant with a pitchfork. That would be my options aswell.
Having worn both I can say for sure, the plate is better in terms of "stamina". Mail, even if fitted tightly, moves and shifts a lot on you and takes some energy just for that. I can live with that but in a few hours of wearing it i feel more exhausted than in a plate. But my main problem is weight distribution. Mail always sit on your shoulders and upper back. And it pushes your spine together a lot. Few times i had to take a day off just to adjust my bones after wearing mail for a day (having a big muscular back helps but you will feel it in any case). Cuirass, on the other hand, sits on your hip bones and waist so your shoulders are free and my back never hurts after a day in cuirass.
So there's that. Than you for the video!
well it isn't all roses. i have worn a belt weighing 25-30 lbs. and hiking in rugged terrain for over a mile, and weight on your hips makes it harder to move your legs (probably a reduction in blood flow). taking it off your hips and throwing it over your shoulder like a bandoleer really makes the trek easier. of course wearing modern body armor for 14+ hours a day, for 14 days straight really causes issues with all that weight on your chest and stomach, and the weight on your shoulders really gets to you as well. what you would prefer really is about the details of the situation, isn't it?
Comfort is one thing, actually running & fighting in those are another thing altogether. mail definitely would be oddly restrictive given how they're so loose-fitting yet still weighty, but they definitely ain't gonna cost you more stamina when you actually have to run & fight. plate would have better weight distribution, due to them being cumbersome to begin with & the issue is specifically addressed, thus making them oddly more comfortable to wear. BUT, plate would definitely cost more stamina if you were on prolonged marches & become more restrictive when you have to fight, which would also cost you more stamina.
@@FalconWindblader Something tells me knights didn't travel all the way with their entire kit on, and on foot. They probably only wore the most needed stuff like breastplate and sword / mace etc, while other important gear like helmet and shield were in hand's reach hung over the horse, and everything else, like lances etc were carried on another horse with the squire, or baggage train.
You forgot to wear the belt! You use a belt to take some of the weight off your back.
Mail isn't too bad if you have a belt around your waist... which you probably should. Really does help with weight distribution. I've never worn plate but I'd imagine it would feel pretty similar, if a bit more form-fitting
I fell once asleep in my Mail-shirt 30-odd years ago, instead of doing the usual after the fight, going into the Bathhouse I got sidetracked by a Friend at a Beer-tent, left there fairly tipsy, made it to my Tent and cot and I slept in Mail all through the Night, did I have trouble getting up when I woke up with all that added weight.
Metatron : *uploads a video*
My finger : I am speed
Ali Garda Muhammad
If you don’t watched the video at 2x speed then you aren’t speed.
When you mentioned leather armor I heard shad screaming.
Leather armour did exist. Very much used in Japan, to say one. Nerigawa.
XD
I've seen the video you referring to. In France we have the word "cuirasse" for armor. Cuirs means leather. What shad got wrong is that not all combat situation is on a battle field. If you need to take care of some bandits robbing your farmers you don't need a full plate armor, a leather shirt (pourpoint de buffle) will be enough to avoid getting hurt in a brawl. That's only one example, I'm sure there's more. Leather can be harden and probably reinforce other materials. Cheers.
@@metatronyt Thanks for the answer but I knew that was the case. As you probably are aware Shad is mainly annoyed with how many people are portryed to wear leather armour in popular media.
I am mainly annoyed with silly things such as leather Lorica Segmentata.
@@renaudtheis1197 shad's point is that gambeson and other textile armors were a better option than leather armor. In a nutshell, he argues that leather is far more expensive than a linnen gambeson and not that better , if not worse than textile armor.
Battle: Mail
Duel: Plate
Bedroom: Gambeson
Hotel? Trivago.
Won't that be too stuffy though? I think I would be sweating like crazy if I sleep wearing gambeson.
@@Xaiff I think Gambeson is suggested for the speed of which you can remove it.
Why would you need Gambeson in the bedroom??? I usually need booze and some semblance of underwear- with holes in it...
Unless of course your wife tries to knife you...
Heretyk_13 that’s the idea.
The main advantage mail has over all other armors is it allows escape of bodyheat.
Both plate and lamellar enclose the body, keeping the bodyheat in, mail, even over gambeson, does not do this. So for someone on foot, this could be quite important.
That'd be the main advantage ONLY in tropical regions & summers in subtropical regions. escape of heat hardly matters elsewhere. mail are valued in those places for different reasons.
@@FalconWindblader lol what are you talking about? Have you ever been in the Middle East or Mediterranean during the summer? India? Basically everywhere aside from Northern Euroasia?
Did you monogoloids forgot that the Spanish invaded tropical islands and desert conditions wearing plate armor? Or did you just conveniently forget about the Aztec? Or did you forget that in the desert your don't actually want air to release from your body but instead to be trapped and used as an moisture layer to keep from drying up? Look at why turbans and man dresses are worn and the science behind them.
When the Spanish fought the Aztecs, many of them forgone their plate armors in favor of the more breathable cotton armors. Not to mention most of the fighting done against the Aztecs were done by the indigenous tribes and nations that hated the Aztecs. The Spanish main advantage were disease and firearms, not so much plate armor.
@@tarantulathree-one8013 Turbans+man dresses do not equal 40lb of interlocking steel plates, bruv. Pretty sure the Spanish conquistadors also ditched a lot of their plate armor and wore lighter stuff instead, because trudging through a normal jungle whilst carrying your weapons and survival provisions is already hard enough.
Interesting video, and a good question at the end.
I'd like to come back to the issue of procurement first.
Cost isn't the only issue.
There is also the issue of availability. It's connected to cost, but not quite the same.
I might have a whole chest full of gold coins I can blow on a suit of armour, but if all the master blacksmiths in the area allready have a backlog of orders for plate, I can't get one. Mail will in general require less skill (sure, I imagine that drawing the wire for the links was difficult and linking them in the right pattern required some practice) but overall, I guess mail required a lower skill level.
Also, the work could more easily be spread out over a larger number of (lower skill) workers. Thus simply finding someone who could make you a suit of mail would have ben a lot easier.
There is also another factor, I believe needs to be considerd:
What modern militaries call the "logistical footprint".
If my plate armour gets damaged (anything beyond a small dent or a torn leather strapp at least), I need a blacksmith off significant skill to have it fixed.
Not every military expedition would have had a blacksmith with a full mobile forge in their train.
For mail, I can easily carry a number of spare links, some wire for the rivets, a punch, a chisel and a small hammer with me on campaign and fix pretty much any concieveable damage to my armour myself.
It would also be far easier to purchase spare parts wherever I was going for mail than plate.
So, mail would have a much smaller logistical footprint.
I'd say, if I could choose between mail or plate, if staying close to home (my logistical base) I would prefer plate, but for going far abroad, mail might be the better choice.
as for logistical footprint their is also shipping size. a wagon carrying replacement mail suits could take far more than one taking plate suits. if you had to supply an army with armor and you didn't train them in suit repair you could carry plenty of spares for them if you used mail. heck if you brought a smith to fix the army's armor mail would still be better as he would have to use prefab pieces and fit them to the soldier for any replacement work as forging a whole new piece would be impractical on the move. when less space is taken up by something you could use that space for something else, like food or repair materials for shields.
Another thing to consider regarding logistical footprint is the fact that you really don't need as much labor for fitting/refitting mail armor. Granted, you can modify and fit mail to a remarkable degree, but you wouldn't necessarily need every soldier to have their mail armor tailor-made by a blacksmith and could get away with picking a spare one with roughly the same dimensions. And even then, you could fit it to your dimensions much more easily. You can't exactly just go Small/Medium/Large for most pieces of solid plate armor, unfortunately.
One fun thing i found for tabletop RPGS (namely pathfinder), for any character that uses medium or heavy armor. In pathfinder, it takes a long time to actually equip a lot of medium or heavy armor. So, I tended to take a chain coat with me so i could throw on some passable medium armor if I ever got ambushed at night (when you cant wear your armor). This ended up influencing other people, and now everyone i play with who uses medium or heavy armor types always takes a chain coat if they can afford it. (I actually ended up swapping for the ice coat tho, which i used as a blanket so i had an excuse for why i perpetually had access to this armor while sleeping. Ice coats are chain coats statistically, but are designed to keep you warm)
How long does the rule set say it takes to put on full plate?
@@metatronyt OP said pathfinder which I'm not sure about. In d&d 5e they only seperate by light,medium and heavy armor so chainmail and plate armor take the same amount of time. Heavy armor takes 10 minutes to put on and 5 minutes to take off.
Oh, how often did we get into trouble in a civilized city and I heard the GM say "You are wearing full plate during a shopping trip in the city?"
Suddenly the chain shirts, especially the mythril chain shirts you could wear hidden looked much more interesting for the tank of the group. Shopping in full plate attracts so much attention.
@@metatronyt Depends on if you have help or not. There is a piece of gear you can get that also helps you to put it on, but it takes roughly 4 minutes to get into full plate, and roughly the same to remove it. This assumes you have help. If you don't have help, you get penalties for it being equipped sloppily, so it doesn't fit properly and is harder to move in (still takes 4 minutes, but you get penalties to armor bonus and penalties to stuff like acrobatics cause the plates are haphazardly attached instead of proper).
@@uberpinkwarrior 9 minute sounds more reasonable for wearing full plate (please don't call it platemail). 4 minutes to remove sounds about right if you put everything nice in place, but you can totally do it a lot faster if you just leave a mess. Wearing it ALWAYS takes longer than removing it.
For samurai armour I've tested it myself, it takes me about 4 minutes to put it on and 1 minute and a half to remove it.
Hey Metatron. I got a question about how crests on helmets work on both Greek and Roman solders. Primarily how common were they for both factions, but also you see them in movies presented both Lengthways and width ways (one going from shoulder to shoulder, the other going from back to front).
Which one was more common, and did it depend on something, like rank or such?
I remember some Roman source, probably about gallic wars, describing a sudden attack from the enemy as "our (Roman) soldiers had no time even to fix crests to their helmets". So it is assumable the crests were a kind of rank and/or regiments insignia, allowing for better command of troops in battle
Crests to the Romans were most common width ways, on higher ranking officers. Generally any officer who is a centurion, or higher up, will have that width ways crest.
Yes as said here, horizontal crest (shoulder to shoulder) is for Centurions, and was worn in battle. Vertical crest was allegedly just for parade.
@@metatronyt I think some romans used it in battle, why not? The late roman army apperantly used it alot 400-500. Atleast in all the images I see, you also have those ridge helmets ca 300-500 period. with metal crests. i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/96/b3/4c96b368344c08a7e151277b1eb6692f.jpg
there exists better examples but I couldnt find them right now, and I dont wanna show modern recreations.
@@metatronyt vertical was used by generals in battle. No?
Armored vehicles are the next step of full plate armor.
So a naked guy in a tank?
Or a knight in a tank?
@@sebastianlodge7549 both. Its like wearing plate on a shirt and wearing a plate on a gambesson and/or mail.
People say Knights were the tanks of the medieval battlefield but I say tanks are the knights of the modern battlefield. But seriously General Patton one of the greatest tank commanders in history who's tactics are still taught today, thought of armored vehicles as mechanized cavalry as a cavalry commander he used the tactics and principles of cavalry to armored vehicles to great effect. Knights and Cataphracts live on in the tank.
Yep Patton failed his way across Africa, failed his way to Messina, and he failed his way across France.
Joke aside I think the tank is the next evolution of the wagenberg or war wagons. Which have been used since 500 BC in chine but best used in 1450 ish by the Hussites.
An armored defensive position that could be moved to support other troops. That is what tanks evolved from.
@@sebastianlodge7549
- "So a naked guy in a tank?"*
Im just picturing Ace Ventura inside a mechanical rhino lol
I'm surprised you didn't mention factors like heat. I know you've discussed them in other videos, but one time I think I would choose mail over plate if given a choice would be fighting in particularly hot and sunny weather.
I think 'munitions plate' is also is worth mentioning when discussing the economic aspect. Mail was very expensive mostly due to the skilled labor involved, rather than the materials. Based on things I've read, Renaissance technology allowed low quality plate armor (usually half or 3/4th plate for infantry) to be manufactured relatively quickly at a much lower cost than mail could be produced.
Mail also has the advantage, when equipping a large force, of being much easier to refit/tailor to different soldiers as well as to repair in the field.
Everyone else freaking out about a virus
Me learning about armour
The Virgin: "Wear your doctor mask!"
Vs
The Chad: " *DEUS VULT INFADEL!!!* "
relax, you have to say "context" 3 times in a row to summon a wild Matt Easton
So when are we going to see Imperator Metatron conquering calradia with his Immortal Legions?
Love ur work !!! Saludos desde Canada
Surcoat over mail is the best in calradia
I would go for plate.
In mail most of the weight is on your shoulders and waist while in plate the weight is more evenly spread across your body.
Atleast thats how I see it.
I think Metatron once mentioned that you can fix that by wearing a tight belt over your mail shirt so that some of the weight settles on your hips.
Yeah, a belt on your natural hip, above the actual joint, would be the norm while wearing mail. Keep in mind the only example I can think of a culture of warriors who didn't wear plate (in this case lamellar) armour above mail are late mongolians, so in choosing plate you automatically count mail as well.
Well, that's what a sword belt is for.
That's why you use a belt.
Francesco Vassallo you don’t necessarily wear plate over the mail. You can just use mail sleeves and skirt to fill in the gaps on the arms and crotch.
"Imagine the costs of supplying an entire legion... with full plate."
*Lamellar armor has entered the chat*
well lamellar is closer to brigandine type, rather that full plate. it is much cheaper to forge relatively small plates than HUUUUUGE piece of metal called breastplate keeping the good quality.
I've also always looked at the Roman Lorica Segmentata as plate armor, but I guess that doesn't count as full plate?
@@fanrik9583 Lorica Segmentata is clasified as *Laminar* Armor which is "horizontal overlapping rows or bands of solid armour plates" and yes it wouldn't count as "Full" Plate Armor because it's for the Torso.
>Lamellar armor has entered the chat
Nice jab indeed) Full-plate armor must be closely tailored to a person to be effective. Making a bulk of those is logistical nightmare. Lorica segmentata is much more mod-friendly construction. If you got new soldier in unit and need to equip him with armor from storage; or if owner of such armor died, it's easier to repurpose for someone else to use.
Or just plate configurations that aren't full.
Imagine not going into battle in a shiny dress with a nice and trendy slit.
In full plate armor you can jump run and do backflips and push ups
You can do that with maille. I'd say the demise of maille came from the amount of work needed to produce it. Maille is VERY effective but also VERY time consuming (IE: VERY EXPENSIVE) to manufacture. The less you spend on armor, the more you can spend on FOOD, which is what truly keeps an army operational.
@@waynepurcell6058 plate armor takes more work to be built than mail
@@Morbak546 you're right
Yeah, but all the straps and buckles of plate armor limits your mobility like hell. It's not that you move sluggish, but that you are hamperes by the rigid shell and all it's straps on your body. Mail instead kinda flows with you, there is a big difference. Of course, the trade in protection overshadows the limited mobility, but it still is an issue. i wore both.
@@GreatOldOne999 I don't know how good of a source the show Deadliest Warrior actually is, but in the episode with Joan of Ark, they showed that her plate harness had better range of motion than the other historical figure's mail hauburk(spelling?). Like I said, that show might not be a very good source of information. Just relaying what I saw on it.
I've thought about this for a long time and I would still pick a brigandine over most other armours. As someone who plays a lot of roleplaying games, and sometimes host them, I like to include a little historical realism when it comes down to weapons and armour. Now a lot of (my) D&D campaigns include quite a bit of travel so the Ideal sort of armour to carry around (imo) would be brigandine, all be it in combination with mail and/or gambeson.
Yeah, I think gambeson, mail, and brigandine is the best combo of protection and mobility. Especially for someone on their own. A knight has servants to help him put on and take off his armor, and he is not operating solo. For the adventurer, which is what most of us gamers think of, we need to be able to move on our own.
@I C yeah I think he means that if you were by yourself without assistance, you wouldn't be able to put on and take off your plate armour.
@@shorewall add a helmet and maybe a shield and you'd be solid for most situations. I mean really a shield is the best bang for your buck for protection
I would choose the plate armour, because if the enemy will not have hammer type weapon, he could't give me any damage.
(sorry if me english its bad)
Actually, due to the fact that armour was impenetrable, blunt weapons were employed more often because they could actually crush the plate armour, blade-based weapons (e.g. swords) weren't used as much as they are used in fantasy/films because they required great blade quality and long training in order to be able to go against heavy armour. Also, a lot of polearm weapons were used and those had the potential to dominate the heavily armoured opponent.
I mean, if you get double-teamed, you just get shanked with a dagger in the eye. Plate armor is great, but don´t get too cocky, that is the leading cause of knightly deaths I hear.
Like in a few video games different types of armor will stop different types of damage like slashing and blunt weapons, and also piercing weapons such as bows/spears/javelins
@@griffinbastion Yeah, Sword was more like anti-peasant weapon in plate armor era. And Riwillon is right, wrestling and grappling against plate armor opponent and dagger into gaps is real thing. I once heard, Dagger killed more knights than any weapon :-)
"Mail has served warriors from ALL OVER the EARTH, almost."
Civilizations that never used metallurgy: >:"(
_Good morning, warrior. You have mail._
Metatron, a video that I have really been wanting to see is one that addresses where and how to buy proper historical armor online. I eventually want to purchase properly made historical recreations such as those owned by Ian LaSpina and don't know where to get started.
You mentioned condottieri so many times, gave me hope for a dedicated video on them
In battle - combination of mail and plate.
On the parade - scale armour and a plumed open helmet.
i'd wear mstly mail with reinforced outer limbs, similar to brigandine, to keep mobility at it's maximum. even that does mean being less protected against very precises hits
Mobility in dual would give me a clear advantage, and in the battlefiel, the outer limbes protection would protect me enought to let me use the extra mobility i have.
If I had the money to choose it would go like this: for duels and defensive wars with the enemy coming to me - full plate, if I have to march to the enemy, then that in-between brigantine you showed looks ideal.
Good to see you back again, hope you are feeling better
Plate armor without question, it looks more noble, just in case this channel is not noble enough
Bad ideea cuz is expensive and hard to mantain
@@nocive7381 ah, peasant problems
Plate weaponry is often employed by Greek warriors during drunken feasts. Much to the chagrin of the waiting staff!
Opa!
I'd go with mail, just for the fact that you can just throw it on by yourself, like you would a t-shirt, rather than needing a squire to help you strap 10 different pieces of metal to your body.
Nice video! I lik3 the editing you did and the backround music, keep it up good sir!
Could you make video about polish winged hussars? backgroud, equipment etc
If tou had truly summoned Matt Easton you would have ended the vid with a "Cheers Folks!"
I prefer Mithril Vests.
Hey Metatron. There are also more things you could consider, when talking about both armor types. For example, Mail is generally very hard to make (an extremly laborious process of forging each link individually and riveting it, in the case of riveted mail), however, it becomes very easy to fix once it's been fully put together, as you only need to exchange the broken links with new ones. This also makes mail extremly lootable by common soldiers, since it would be easy to fix it with a couple of new links, and it doesn't necessarily need to fit your exact body shape in order for it to work. I would expect it to be quite common for soldiers who would be wearing gambesons only in a battle, to be seen wearing the mail of their previously defeated foes, in the next one. Even though it's hard to make, I would expect Mail to be easily passed on years later, to other soldiers or their sons, due to how versatile it is, as long as it was properly maintained. Plate armor is not versatile at all in that regard. If it gets dented (and I assume it would get, a lot) then it most likely required a skilled craftsman to repair it, also taking into consideration that dents would affect the mobility of joints, and needed the proper attention, whereas Mail could be fixed by the town's blacksmith and anyone with the minimal skill, really. If the damage is bad (hole is punched through the plate) then it gets almost impossible to fix. Sure, it can probably get patched in some way, but there's no way it has the same structural integrity anymore. Plate is also not very lootable by enemies, due to the fact that it needs to be well fitted to the wearer in order for it to be properly worn, so I don't assume it was very likely to kill a knight who happened to have your exact body measurements.
Just some wild thoughts ;)
Hey Metatron, I have two video ideas that I would be very interested to see. The first is Roman medicine (both general and military medicine) and the second is the everyday life of slaves/retinue of fighting/marching armies, as we pretty much only hear about the soldiers. You once mentioned in a video that 1200 of 6000 people in a legion weren't soldiers I think. Also what type of slaves were accompanying the Legions as the Legionnaires pretty much did everything involving labour themselves would be nice to know. I'd love to see you make videos on those two topics at one point. Until then, keep up the great content!
Certainly not if you're using the aluminum pie plate armor that they stab through in the show Forged in Fire. Maybe it's not aluminum but it's equally unimpressive.
I think it's probably mild steel. In this case, context matters: The purpose of armour on Forged In Fire is not to protect a wearer but to test the durability of the weapons. If it were too good, no weapons would pass the tests
I would buy full plate over gambeson with chainmail woven into the joints and areas not covered by the plate to maximize protection but still keep the weight down (mail is heavier than plate). This would also allow for the armor to be more comfortable and possibly cool down faster since the more metal you’re wearing (including chainmail) would get hot in direct sunlight. I think I would have at minimum 3 lances to allow for cycle charges starting any battle with an armet style helm followed by switching to a barbute helmet after the lances have been exhausted. I’d carry a sword as a secondary weapon but two hand a pole axe during the switch. All this assuming I’m able to charge, return to my squire in the back field and then engage over and over. I think the horse would tire as well so being able to fight on foot at that point with the poleaxe and barbute would allow for excellent capability in killing armor and unarmored opponents and the barbute allowing for better breathing since being on foot would exhaust you fast than riding the horse while still providing better facial protecting than a lifted visor in an armet.
1 thing you did not mention: common weather were you will use the armor....
As I am sure you know, gambesons, heavy armor heat do NOT get along. I don't think someone who is going to figth in average temperatures of over 32 degrees should be armored the same way that someone who will figth on an average of 10 degrees.
There are many examples of an army being too armored to figth in the heat or the other way around, with to light armor after traveling for a long time to a coalder weather.
Just a note: wearability. Wearing plate requires assistance, while mail can be worn like a simple shirt.
I have several mails and I find myself very well with them - I do not sweat too much under them, and I can wear them without assistance.
I'm thinking to buy some plate, but I still don't know "how much" - probably something less than a half-armour will do. I just want to be able to don it by myself.
You can Don plate entirely by yourself. It takes longer to do so and is alot easier with assistance. It can be made even easier if you intend to wear a plate gorget by connecting spaulders directly to it.
@@maddogs1989 I was thinkin' 'bout getting a plate, but for now is too expensive. I thought 'bout connecting the spaulders to a gorget or to the shoulderlaces, but I'm still unsure. I'm glad your experience points out that it's a possible thing, though!
@Metatron Can you talk about why plate is so much more expensive than mail? They're both made of metal, and it seems mail needs a lot of metal weaving or what not to make it.
Not to mention plate was used back in the time of Greek hoplites so it seems like it couldn't have been that expensive. (I'm not saying it wasn't I'm just saying the fact that cuirasses were given in mass to hoplites gives us that impression)
hoplites usually provided their own gear, like knights. mail you make the rings, then weave them and rivet them (a low skill thing). plate needs to be shaped and worked on from the get go. so basically your skilled smiths either spend their time making a ton of rings which can be then handed off to an apprentice or some other person with less skill, or he spends all his time making the pieces to the plate armor. if he just makes a cuirass (the chestplate, what the hoplites used) then it would take much less time, though maybe just as much as the rings needed for a full suit of mail.
basically you pay for skill. semi-skilled jobs went for a small amount of money, no-skilled jobs went for essentially room and board, but skilled work cost a decent amount. then there is the amount of material other than metal going into the process, as working a forge requires charcoal which takes quite a bit labor in cutting the trees, then chopping them into pieces, then burning them properly (using more wood for the fire). though in the end it is the skill of the blacksmith that costs the most.
I think Hoplites used only breastplates with some occasional plates for legs for example. This is very different from full plate which has much more sophisticated construction with many movable joints, especially in 15-16 century.
In the game I'm working on, armor isn't defined as light or heavy depending purely on if it's plate or mail (or scale, leather, etc.), but by how much coverage it gives. In example, armor consisting of a metal breastplate, helmet and greaves is considered light armor, while a full length mail hauberk(sp?) with matching mail leggings and either a mail coif and/or steel helmet would be heavy armor.
P.S. Love your outro music.
Plate T style helm, long gambeston w/ brigandine , plate pauldrons and bracers, with leather/mail hybrid gloves. Plate greaves and leather w/ mail covered shoes, polearm or longbow with longsword, for backup (or against plate) a dagger and some throwing spikes/knives (non armored targets and utility) depending on situation.
(mail hauberk, suspended mail skirt & leggings covered with plate sabatons, poleyns and cuisses added at war)
I do HEMA since 2010, and I do medieval reenactment/living history, too, from the 6th to the mid 14th centuries, so I have "both" of them or, at least, what in the 14th century we can call a full suit of armour: plate arms and legs, a bascinet, a coat of plates... Well, for a duel, I'd choose mail with no doubt. I'm a fighter who needs mobility and vision, the best armour for me is a mail hauberk with nasal helmet and a thin gambeson underneath. In a battle, I think I would choose the full plate armor. I have friends who choose the plate armour even for single combat, because their skills, and it's OK. As you said, if you have the money or whatever and the only problem is your personal preference, it always will depend on context and your combat skills or characteristics.
Good point about the battle. In a battle, damage can come from anywhere, so that all around protection keeps you from being merc'd by a threat you can see and defend against.
In the context of a duel, full plate would still be a significant advantage. Not only does it protect you more, and only marginally reduce mobility, it could also make your opponent more predictable.
I wish I could afford full plate... sadly, a rifleman's salary isn't like that of a knight's :(
Come now, come now, chancellor, surely you can afford something.
A knight would trade his armor for your rifle.
@incinerator950 BUT STRIPPERS AND BOOZE ARE AMAZING!!!
@@danielmorris6584 damn, your right! I'll go get Hans and set up the time machine!
I just did the research. A Knights Feif averaged between 1000-5000 acres of land, depending upon how quickly or easily the Feif could support him. Not all of them had castles, most didn't. In today's terms, a knight was worth somewhere high above $10,000,000 and that's if the Feif was on the lower end. Possibly as high as $50,000,000 for the larger ones.
The salary of an English knight bachelor was 2 shillings a day, and of a knight banneret was 4 shillings a day.
I’d have full plate armour with a Sallet for battle and a barbute for duels/general use for increased visibility since I won’t have to worry about archers
imagine sneaking around in the woods wearing full plate
I agree with everything, though i thought riveted mail would perform better vs arrows from warbows... i was kinda shocked when i saw Tod's video on mail, vhen Joe Gibs shot low.
Knights probably were shocked too, that's why their armors had faulds later on I reckon
The thing you have to consider there though, that is pretty hefty war bow, the cloth underneath wasn't very loose (looser cloth are actually better), and it was a pretty direct shot to a larger surface. If it was a bit more on a angle/to the side, a less stretched out configuration of both mail and cloth beneath, a different arrowhead or different bow, that might have ended much better for the hypothetical warrior than someone without mail.
Mail has the advantage of having less of a problem with overheating in a hot climate.
Mail is almost as good as plate against melee weapons, but significantly inferior against high powered missile weapons.
mail is almost as good as plate against long-bladed slashing weapons. it is far inferior against thrusts or heavy blows such as axes or hammers. even if an axe blow didn't shear through the mail (it is plausible) it would almost certainly break bone underneath it, gambeson or no.
in short it'll save your life if you get unlucky, but you can't just ignore blows and kill the attacker like a person in plate could.
plate removes mutually assured destruction that is relevant to mail. essentially letting one be far more aggressive... nobody can hurt you if they are dead.
@@es4583 so yes, mail limits your offensive options because you need to either
A. have a shield, ruling out the most powerful of weapons, including the only real weapons that stand a chance against plate (two handed pole-hammers, halbierds, pole axes etc...)
or B. fight exceptionally defensively because though mail will protect you from most swords, those are *backup* weapons and not primary weapons (heavy axes, thrusting spears, pole-arms) almost all of which will hurt you even if the mail stops it from cutting or skewering you.
my point being *mail itself* is not anywhere near as protective as plate armor against even melee weapons, as well as some high-powers missile weapons (warbows, heavy crossbows) can butter it.
if one favored flexibility over protection, the ideal would probably be mail-backed scale armor, though how historical such would be, I do not know. (that is to say, scales woven into the rings of a mail shirt, but in only 2 places so they can still rotate, not in 4+ places like lamalar)
I hoped you'd mention the Barbary Crusade, where the plate armour of the French and Genuese soldiers made them faint in the heat, whereas the mail armour of the barbary soldiers let through sweat and wind so they kept cool. Or so I've read in Barbar Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror".
This is more acclamation to the weather than it is to the armor.
I think it is interesting to look at 16th and 17th century munitions armor that was used when state equipped armies started to become a thing again. Like pikeman half armors or cuirassier 3/4 armors. The armors of course removed everything that needed to be tailor made like greaves. Most armies during the 17th century seems to have started to think amror for the infantry was just not worth the cost since it had mostly dissapered in Europe by the end of the 17th centrury.
Rogue builds be like: "just don't get hit lmao"
I started my medieval hobby by building chainmail, later worked on some plates and now i wear full plate. but maybe just because i think its easier do "decorate" a plate armor then a chainmail.
Polish medium cavalry Pancerni had access and could afford both mail and munition plate. Yet they chose to wear a mail shirt instead of a front+back plate+tassets+paudrons. That's because they were horse archers. Mail gives much better torso mobility.
Interesting commentary about pre and post Marian reforms armor quality. Would love to see more discussion in detail on this topic.
Next video: How to properly summon Matt Easton, sentinel demon of masterly knowledge on all things kontext. xDD
not in season 8 of game of thrones
Ahh yes,
A very reliable source of history.
I think it is also important to remember under "context" what precise weapons you can expect to go up against. Certain armors perform better against certain weapons.
First of awesome video! I would go for plate, always for the looks, amount of protection and overall comfort(due to better weight distribution). I have kind of interesing thing thought slightly related to the topic, here in Poland shortly after medieval peroid (XVII century) we had two main types of heavy cavalery: the most famous Husarya and the Armoured Cavalery (Towarzysze/Chorągwie Pancerne). Husarya used plate armours (inspired both by european and eastern styles of armour) and lances, but if it comes to the other one mainly it was Mail armour (eastern type mostly)Interesting fact is that both formations were efective (useing diferent tactics), both were used along within same peroid of time, and the reason of using different equipment is like Metatron said context. So I hope you will find it interesting, and have a good one!
Damn! Still... in the first 10! :)
First, I hope.
Also, great to see you again after the virus!
On foot …. I'd probably choose mail, with the addition of either a brigandine or a breastplate/backplate. This would offer a good combination of protection (especially on the torso) and mobility. Likewise, I would probably choose a relatively open helmet, so I could see well and breathe normally.
Could you do a video about how climate and weather affects armour and armour preference in different contexts and cultures?
I wonder how different types of armour work in hot and cold climates. Most of Europe is generally temperate, but what effects would different types of armours have in say hot arid (i.e. desert) , or cold climates (i.e. northern winters, or Arctic Tundra). Or in tropical / subtropical regions like Africa, India, Southeast Asia, etc.
For instance, were there cases where the climate was so hot and humid, that it prevented the wearing of much armour? (I'm thinking about battles in the Middle East, or in Indonesia, etc). In those circumstances was it better to wear little or no armour to prevent yourself overheating, or was it always preferable to wear armour?
The other big factor is what sort of terrain you will be fighting in or the scenario you will be wearing it in. Is it hot, cold, muddy, are there a lot of rivers etc. Full plate might be good for a battlefield in France but might not be the best choice for the jungle or desert. Are you using it in the battlefield or for protection on a journey? If you’re bringing it on a journey are you wearing it or carrying it? Do you have a horse or mule or wagon to carry it? How quickly might you need to take the armor on and off? Do you have a squire or someone to help?
I am a big fan of period dress. Would love to see certain styles revived as you are demonstrating in your videos. 👌🏻😎
Thank you. That cleared up a lot of debates from D&D to video games.
cost aside, plate seems better to me:
-the fact that it's rigid make the armor will self support a little portion of it's total weight, meaning a bit less weight on the shoulders (and so, less possibility for back injuries due to overburden) + will offer better protection (not only against ennemy's weapons, but against some secondary consequences, such as something heavy falling on you ---> if you wear something flexible like mail, it will not give any protection, while, if you are into an rigid shell, it will make that slightly less weight will apply on your body, increasing the chance of not being turned into a mass of goo )
-far more protection against everything very thin and spike-like (such as bolts and arrows)
-far more protection against blunt force (if you are in full plate, you will already suffer if someone hit you strongly with an heavy hammer, but if you are wearing mail, you ll suffer even more)
-easyer to keep clean (for the same protected surface area, there will be less external surface of steel on a plate than a mail, so, you will need less time to keep it safe from rust)
-depending of how the joints and articulations are designed, it might help prevent an very powerfull blow from bending too much a part of your body (for exemple: in case of a powerfull blow in the head, if your head protection is an solid shell, there will be little chance of your neck bending, while, if you wear mail, it might potentially make your head moove, your neck bend, and potenially lead to severe spinal injuries)
and as a bonus, in nowaday's situation, with the avaibility to buy for a decent price pre-made steel plates, it means that if you plan to build yourself an armor, it will be cheaper, quicker and easyer for you to build plate armor than mail.
I personally use a Gambeson and tight, "short" chainmail (Haubergeon) to protect my body during sparring, training, mock duels and re-enactment of battles combined with a hounskull/bascinet. "I" am no knight but a southern German 1380s infantry mercenary armed either with shield and sword (shield wall recreation), spear/pike (battlefield) or sword and buckler (duel). This way I'm faster and have a bit more endurance than the average late medieval re-enactor but got more hitpoints than a footsoldier in a gambeson with a kettlehelmet. In addition, even if something goes wrong, I won't be hurt to badly. I should get tailored leg-armour some day for more historical accuracy though. A brigandine would be cool, but I am to weak to wear it.
I would go for brigandine. Best compromise between mobility, protection, cost and comfort. Also a very pretty type of armor.
That said, i'd be delighted if you could make a similar video comparing mail to lamellar.
Weight variability is another consideration. Mail or brigandine is far easier or unnecessary to adjust as the owner gains or loses weight and muscle.
Congratulations on 400K subscribers!
Thanks!
Another economic advantage of mail when supplying an army is that it's fit is relatively forgiving. Thus it is feasible to mass produce a few standard sizes. In contrast plate will restrict movement unless it fits perfectly, and thus would require custom fitting, or at least much more extensive and difficult tailoring.
Excellent! I would chose mail with the traditional solid items, grieves, breastplate and helmet worn over. As noted below there is some consideration of well tailored versus more mass produced, favoring mail for the less well-fitted options.
Lmao the thumbnail
Mail armored guy:
Propably doing some war cries, intimidating his opponent
Plate armored guy:
*standing menacingly*
Matt: my context sense is tingling
Plate is only bad if your enemy is a blacksmith wielding a hammer.
To be honest, I wish I had both, The idea of walking around in medieval chain mail or plated armor and buying groceries while wearing it just seems kind of fun to me
Great video, very dense information you made it extremely interesting brilliant. Cheers Mate!
A mail shirt is great because you can literally throw a hauberk/habergeon on if one is caught with their pants down. On the other hand if one is prepared and want to be faster on their feet in combat partial plate over arming clothes and something like a barbute or kettle helmet would be more suitable.
I choose Central Asian/Persian maille and plate combination. From 1350 onwards smaller solid steel plates are linked with maille. Best combination of mobility and protection for state funded armies. Some fuedal armies adopted this armour too but it was really the States like Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt and the Mamluk Sultanate of Delhi which had state armouries and arsenal's producing these armours in big quantities. Later the Ottomans, Safavids, Mongols and Mughal successors all used similar armour for very long time as it was great for supplying large forces quickly. In later times partial plates were added when these empires became full flegded gunpowder based empires.
I'm curious: in terms of mass production: did any ancient or medieval societies do any press stamping of breast plates?
Looking at their size and shape, I imagine we'd stamp flat steel plates into the correct shape with machinery if anyone were to mass produce them today, so it would be interesting to know if they did anything similar back then.
checked in an armor store, online; and their best mail armor when considering all the body, except the face was about 32 lb, more for the larger ones.
It depends. For duel I would probably choose plate armor because it will give the best protection for the short time it is needed for.
But in war it's different. It's too hot and choking to march long distances or fight for long time, keeping it from getting rust and off course fix it if it took damage will be more difficult. So in that case I may choose mail armor.
Hey Metatron, thanks for the video!
Quick question, where did you get that arming sword of yours? Asking for a friend...
I would probably prefer something like that armour at 10:00 time. That's somehow most elegant variant. But also, it has a good protection, while maintaining mobility. Also I like the combination of mail and brigandine. I like the combination of solid hard protection of the mail and soft cushion like protection of the brigandine. Also limbs are covered vell enough by those plate pieces. It overal looks very good and most importantly, it works.
Jess... In 12:25 when Raf's is going down my head sonorized that with the sound of super mario going down on a pipe!
Congratulations for the very interesting video, it made me think of a question: in board games or videogames, archers, crossbowmen etc. often have a lower armor than the soldiers who fought hand-to-hand, it was so even in the Middle Ages / Renaissance or not? Was it a habit of a specific nation or period or a complete modern invention?
My choice would of course depend on context. Remember that plate also takes way more time to get in and out of, plus maintain.
My default would probably be the balanced middle of a brigandine. Easy on/off, mostly plate like for protection but still pretty movable, plus built in gambison. Optionally mail under it, especially to protect the arms.
Hey metatron could you do a video on why plate armor started being used less and less since guns started showing up and discuss the plate armor used in WWI?
I put together a ~1337 armour kit for LARP which is considered transitional armour, but I was driven by aesthetics rather than protection. Imho transitional armour is the most beautiful, because it's so much for the eye. Roman mesh mail shirt, Wisby coat of plate, Wisby gauntlets, bascinat with mail ventail, scale vambraces and scale sabatons. The mix is so rich in variety. You know what I mean?
On the show deadliest warior they actually had plate armor that gave better mobility than Chainmail armor. Basically the plate was segmented perfectly and the chainmail bunched up. Like the rang of motion with flexing ur arm was restricted by the chainmail but not the plate.