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Great video and obviously a great product. Being a pensioner and a woodworker I built a wooden box about 4 inches deep and large enough to mount the turntable on. Filled it with dry sand and topped off with a 6mm plate glass sheet levelled carefully. Then two brackets attached to a sturdy wall completed the project and as you say, s--o--u--n--d s--t--a--g--e is so much wider!
Excellent ....isolating the table is vital, and the only thing I would add to that suggestion is to mount that shelf on an exterior wall, hopefully anchored in the studs that are resting on the foundation. Now you can invite the dancers into the room.
I agree, vibrations are the nemesis of good sound ...also pictures made with long exposures. Let me start with my system: a Sota Sapphire which is suspended. It is mounted on a heavy base cabinet. Mindful of my experience as a scientific photographer, my macro photo system was isolated by simply installing the base with feet embedded in sand, massive isolation from external vibration. But the key was to identify if the vibrations exist and the test for that was simple, a breaker if water placed on the plinth, you can visually be determined: if the water is still there are no vibrations to be concerned with. At this point I have not moved toward the sand dampening.😮
I thought you were going to say a stylus brush. Cleaning stylus from back to front gives me a 50% improvement. I set my turntable on the ikea cutting board, then the cutting board sits on top of 4 natural sponges. Works great for vibration feedback. Got idea from the gabster channel.
Great video. I’ve had an isolation shelf for my turntable for over 10 years now and I agree with you the isolation shelf was THE best piece of hi-fi equipment I have ever bought. I can jump up and down on my spring floor in front of the deck if I want to while a record is playing and nothing affects it at all, the shelf is as solid as a rock and I agree it really is one of the best improvements you can make to a system.
I was sincerely shocked, Nigel, when I heard the improvement. It was not my goal, being focused on the vibrations, but now I'm an apostle for isolation.
Good advice. I changed the footing on my turntable to Orea isoAcoustic isolations and the turntable mat to use Les Davies high performance slip mat. I also placed the system on the tiled hearth and off the sprung wooden floor. The response was evidently improved.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords Excellent. I live in the UK, and following research l emailed a Hi-Fi dealer in Australia. The dealer didn’t ship to the UK but suggested if l knew a friend in Australia they would ship to my friend(shipping was free internally) It was much cheaper for me do it like that. A great mat.
Steve McCormack had solutions for vibration in 1992. He sold them out of his Mod Squad outlet in Leucadia, California. His mods, including Tiptoes and Sorbathane mats, were the best bang for the audiophile buck.
The Tiptoes were/are brilliant! I still use mine.🤗 But if you really want to defeat their purpose &:ruin how they work, put coins or stupid metal cups under them so that they have something to resonate against so that they don't do any possible cosmetic damage to the surface underneath them.🫣🙄😑 Which I noticed is what's on the underside of that stupid Pangea wall mount, so the upward-facing spikes can't penetrate into the sound-destroying thin crappy resonant painted pressboard shelf AND DO THEIR JOB!!! 🤣🤣🤣🙄 WHO CARES about cosmetic damage, tiny little divots into the UNDERSIDE of a cheap piece of wood-like board? Where you can't even see them???🤪🤤🤤🤤 Spikes work best when they can get a bit of purchase into the surface you put them on. Wood & laminate ones are the best for them; IT'S WHAT THEY WERE DESIGNED FOR!🤓🤔 In fact, we used to position spiked speakers at their chosen position by leaning on top of them to drive the spikes in real good!🧟 But for the cosmetically paranoid & otherwise squeamish, a company named Black Diamond Racing came along later &'made carbon-fibre clones of the aluminium "Tip-Toes", whose tips weren't as hard & so did alot less surface damage. With the late 80's demise of the turntable, both products then faded away & disappeared from the market. So YES! We need them both back now!🤗 But as for those Sorbothane mats...YECCCH!🙉🙉🙉
@@joerosen5464 So simple solution for the Pangea wall mount would be to knock of the discs on the bottom of the shelf I guess. Makes sense. I used to press the spikes on my speakers through the carpet and into the plywood subfloor. What material would you recommend to make another shelf for the Pangea? Marble, Maple butcher block, or??? Or what wall mount would be a better option? One other note on the Pangea is that the Netan support for the shelf is bolted in to the wall plate. This should have been welded. 45 degree bracing should have been used as well.
Totally agree! That is why apart from looking after room acoustics and a separate electrical ring mains for my listening room I have invested in proper isolating racks. I also suspended my main speakers and subwoofer on Max Townshend's Siesmic Isolation Podiums that decouple the speakers from the room. It totally works!
Not surprised at the improvement from use of a wall shelf which is the ideal solution if space and decor allow. However you would have experienced a big improvement if you had just got rid of that massive heavy cabinet underneath the TT. It may seem counterintuitive, but large heavy cabinets are the absolute pits where vibration is concerned - light, spiked and rigid is the way to go if a wall shelf is not suitable. I haven't tried this myself but I have heard that worthwhile improvements are also possible by isolating the amplifier as well - lots of HiFi furniture suppliers make simple spiked boards available for this purpose. Another interesting and sensible video unspoiled by silly tweaks and HiFi jargon so thanks for that.
By far the greatest source of vibration in a record player is due to the stylus-groove interface. You can engineer away other sources of vibration such as motor noise, bearing noise and environmental noise but you still have to have the stylus in the groove. The energy from the stylus will cause both the tonearm and platter to vibrate in sympathy. The best products I have found to reduce the transmission of vibration into the arm and deck are those from the Funk Firm, the Houdini and Acromat. Cheaper, but less effective, solutions are available from Origin Live. As you have suspended flooring I would definitely suggest decoupling your speakers from the floor. ISO kinetics Gaia or Townshend podiums will make a huge difference. At the moment you are pumping bass into your floor which will be resonating and booming like a drum. And spikes couple, they do not decouple. Get rid of the spikes on your turntable shelf and replace with something that decouple.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords As your Thorens uses undamped springs in its suspension I would recommend against using springs for any additional decoupling. I would suggest something elastomer based. Again ISO Acoustics springs to mind. The advantage of your current spikes is that they offer leveling. Possibly keep them and add sorbothane feet to the deck itself. My main point with my comment about spikes is that there is this industry wide miss-apprehension that spikes decouple. In hifi spikes are rarely a good thing.
The energy from the stylus interface has enough power to move the platter ? I guess that makes sense, since they are touching one another with only a platter mat for a protection layer. Good information regarding spikes. I have pondered their effectiveness but with no direct research I had previously made the assumption that the rampant industry promotion of the spikes surely MUST mean that they are effective. My mistake. Thank you gentlemen for the thought provoking conversation.
@@williamdenton5716 if you have a mechanics stethoscope and a deck where you can access the base of the bearing whilst playing a record you can perform a little experiment that shows just how much energy is transmitted into the platter by the stylus. With the volume turned down put the end of the stethoscope against the bearing housing and you will clearly hear the music. You can do the same at the arm base to hear that a lot of energy is being transferred into the arm. Of course the style of bearings used will have a big impact on how much energy is transmitted. I believe that it is preferable to have both main bearing and arm bearings couple securely to the plinth/sub-chassis. This generates a path to allow energy to flow away from the cartridge. The plinth/sub-chassis then wants to be decoupled from the rest of the world.
Thanks for the great video and recommendations! I didn’t have the patience to look online for a shelf or something similar. I found four furniture sliders for carpets and placed them on top of four rotoscrub pads that attach to your drill. Items sitting there in a drawer in my office. I am blown away. All the instruments are more defined. Soundstage is fantastic!
I've been thinking of tackling this issue as I still have to tiptoe around my living room when playing a record. I hadn't imagined isolating my player would much a 50% increase in sound quality. I'm sold. I'm currently using rubber feet under my standard turntable feet. They've helped a little but not solved the issue. Great video. You tackle many topics that are rolling around in my head. Thanks!
You're welcome, David! This one came as a complete surprise to me as my goal was the floor issue. I had no idea how much the other, more subtle vibrations were getting to it.
Improved tt isolation will also reduce rumble and acoustic feedback. I built a sandbox for my tt. I found a diy article about it. Just a box big enough for your deck filled with sand maybe 3" deep and the top cut to 1/2" or so less than the frame so it fits on top of the sand without touching the box. Level the sand to about the thickness of the top. Use a piece of cardboard with 1/2" or so notches to drag the sand level.
It depends also on type of construction of building. Here in Europe, the vast majority of houses are made of bricks and concrete, or even bricks made out of concrete. There is minimal vibration in the room walking through it if you don`t have cheap hollow laminate on the floor, but a wooden parkett.
Been using a TT Target shelf since the 80’s, if your system isn’t on a concrete floor ie. basement of a house the only way to go is a wall mount. Another tip is to remove your dust cover completely when doing some serious listening. It’s picking up all sorts of vibrations. Playing around with turntables has always been the best part of audio for myself. Experimenting with arms, platter mats, cartridges, stuff that doesn’t cost big money but at times makes a huge difference. CD players and DAC’s just doesn’t give you the same experience. Great video, I’m sure it with help a few guys. 😎
I only put the dust cover on while I am not using the turntable. Also using an ion producing fan near the turntable reduces the presence of static electricity.
@@elgustoesmiochupaki6119 Same with the dust cover - it's off when playing (although I think for the demo in the video it was on). Great idea about the fan!
I have heard Technics SL-1200 hooked up to a rack of amps totaling 7000W RMS in a nightclub built out of a prefab concrete basement lined with carpet so the vibration they were withstanding was phenomenal. The dance floor had 8 sets of JBL top/mid range ceiling mounted and 4 sets of floor mounted bass speakers as well as the old 8 dance floor ceiling mounted speakers relocated throughout the club. When the volume was raised to about 80% the coins were jumping in the cash drawers of the McDonalds on the ground floor upstairs. I wonder how the SL-1200 compares these days?
I bought the present house since it had a walk-out basement. I have a room in one of the corners where the 3 walls ( side walls and the wall in front of me are concrete) , and the floor is concrete , and I have placed rugs on the floor.. The ceiling and the wall behind me are not . I have Tube amps , Turn tables . A pair of speakers and a pair of subwoofers . A lot of power but no vibrations . My previous house had hardwood floors , had vibration issues.
As a vinyl DJ, the feedback effect of loud bass through the turntable decks is well known and a pain in clubs. Hence there are many things available to try and isolate the decks. I use isolation boots from MK Stands in clubs which dramatically improves the sound and allows the volume to be increased without feedback.
My second floor apartment's floor is concrete carpeted cheaply . I had muddy bass , which I wasn't very aware of . I installed Herbie's Audio Lab giant threaded studs into my floor standing speakers hoping to reduce how much Bass energy was disturbing my downstairs neighbor lady . About 2 weeks later I realized what was missing in my sound was the muddiness in the Bass .
I too had a vibration issue from my Martin Logan's causing the glass top stand my PL-518 is sitting on to vibrate. The feet of the turntable damped some of it, but not all of it, so I made a wall shelf of my own, and it helped a lot. No more vibrations on the shelf, but yet I could feel subtle vibrations on the turntable itself. What I discovered was the turntable dust cover was the source of vibration, transmitting it into the turntable. As my room is fairly dust free, the simplest solution was to remove the duct cover whenever I play an LP, and being sure to put it back on when I was done.
Exactly, I had the opposite effect when I did my wall mount even though I mounted it directly to the studs in the wall and it still would get wall vibration with the drywall construction of the house.
Great idea.. but won't it pick up potential vibrations from the wall ? Regardless, happy that you found something that works for you for so little cost !!!
I thought that as well so I tested it by jumping. I think it's impossible to eliminate every vibration, but as far as reduction goes - it was a huge improvement. Might be the biggest one I've made.
Funny how the ‘ol algorithm works because until 15 mins ago I was unaware of your channel. Terrific video. My entire system, fronted by my turntable, has been mothballed for 18 months+ after the living room in which it was resident for 25 years was renovated. Next project under way is to renovate and re-purpose one son’s old bedroom into a somewhat dedicated music and listening room but still functional spare room. The funny thing is I am already trying to figure out where to put my turrntable shelf for when the system is reignited. Amazingly, I have had that 'table sitting on a "Target TT1" wall-mounted shelf (of near identical design to that Pangea) for over 35 years. Your video also made me realize that the TT1 shelf is the oldest component in my system. I likely haven’t appreciated how much of a contribution it has been making for the simple reason it’s just been there for so long. Great work and thanks…earned subscriber here.
Two things that cut vibration Mass and Rubber. I have a rega P6 which is mounted on sorbathane 3" half spheres which makes leveling the turntable easy. Then mounted on a 15"x15" patio cement block painted black which is then mounted on an outdoor recycled stair tread cut to the size of the patio block mounted on my cabinet. And it didn't cost a lot .A good diy project. And you save a lot of money.
I am right on the foundation with a tile floor of the house, I have a medical steel cabinet full of books /magazines,and installed a 3/4 In birch top. On top of that there's these mats in the dollar store,and that was about it. The speakers were on wood tables. I spun records like that with no issues for many years..
👏👏👏 Finally a reviewer who acknowledged the only complete solution to turntable vibration problems. 35 years ago, when I bought my Linn LP12, I experienced all the problems you described as having, especially footfalls. The LP12 suspension, as well as the one on your Thorens, are notorious for their sensitivity to infrasonic frequencies, namely footfalls, as those suspensions are tuned to reject audio frequencies. That’s also why you can lower your dust cover while playing an album as the suspension isolates the tonearm and platter from the plinth, to which the dust cover is attached. A commenter below really nailed it by pointing out the ideal solution for mounting the wall shelf on the studs of an exterior wall, which sit on the foundation which extends several feet (or more with a basement) into the ground. And, in many cases, those studs are lashed to an exterior brick wall, further damping matters. My only suggestion, and it’s more a preference, is to mount the turntable at mid-torso height. That way, by not having to bend over to access your ‘table you are more stable when handling your vinyl and, especially, when handling your tonearm. I still like to hand cue. 😮 Thanks for the video!
I own an LP12 and what I did was in my room that has oak floors, I was able to locate the problem boards, then screw them tight plus countersink them to the floor joists below. I used a drill countersink tool from Dewalt that not only pre-drills the whole but also makes a beveled hole that accepts an oak plug that fits perfectly. Simply stain the oak plug, line up the grain, and glue it in with Titebond. Solved the problem + looks fabulous!
Excellent video, I have a solid floor but my turntable sits on a wooden cabinet similar to yours, but I don't suffer from floor resonance as you do, but did have resonance from the cabinet itself if touched or knocked, so my solution was quite ingenious even if I say so myself, I bought a 2cm (3/4") thick granite kitchen chopping board from Ebay for £21 which is about $25 dollars, it came with six thick rubber feet, so now when I tap the cabinet no noise is picked up by the stylus 😊what with the rubber feet then the thick granite working together to kill any resonance getting to the turntable ! 👍
This makes a lot of sense in terms of the Physics of vibration. I myself have a sturdy concrete floor and my STst MOTE 2 turntable is mounted on a double slap of granite with sorbothane in between, that sits itself on 4 damping tri-spike viablue feet on a ceaktive rack. It works audibly in removing the vibrations that the loudspeakers convey through the air via the creaktive rack. But I immediately believe that the wall type decoupling you describe would also work. Very useful tip, thanks!!
My turntable sits on the cement foundation of our house on a tile floor atop a stack of 3 - 4 box shelving units that are separated from the floor and each other by jel spacers/pads. You can jump on or drop anything near it without issue, and I’ve tested it more then a few times on purpose and accident, lol! I have even “hit” the top shelve where the turntable sits during playback without interference so the only source that may be effecting sound is vibration from the unit itself and I’m not worried enough about that to do anything about it unless something becomes noticeable. Blessings
Hi Adam! That's the kind of setup everyone would enjoy - just as you described. I think if you had a problem with the unit itself it would have made itself known to you. Hope all is well on your end!
I remember visiting my dad's friend with my dad in the 80's. The guy was an engineer and did not stop improving his stereo until he had it perfect. I don't remember the whole system, but he had a pillar coming up through the floor from the ground below that did not touch the floor just for his turntable. I was really impressed. Myself, I've had good luck with a product called a Auralex turntable isolation platform under my Rega P6
That's wild - the pillar through the floor. If he ever sold the house I wonder how the new owners explained the mysterious pillar to visitors, Auralex makes a good product.
Hi from Australia. Being a DJ, Audio/Visual engineeer feedback is always a problem but you're the only person I've heard that did the obvious...isolate it from the floor by installing a shelf and brackets into the brick wall and buying a decent unit and you can jump around the whole room without any feedback. Cheers.
I have wood floors and the same issue with skipping with my Thorens TD-160. I literally have to tiptoe away after I drop the needle. I idea is to add a deep shelf so it can accommodate the turntable and its hinged dust cover. Then add some isolating feet too.
It does appear to be a thing with the TD-160s, Gary. I've read about it on various forums too. Amazing sound, but there is the need to compensate for the suspension. Let me know how it goes.
Had my old thorens on my stand with all my gear on it.The amp weighed 65 lbs alone, I had no issues. My newer pro-ject acrylic has no damping anywhere.I was getting vibration from my sub through the stand into the stylus. I built an isolation stand with rubber feet and springs, no more vibrations into my stylus. My power chords improved my soundstage quite a bit, they are not for sale and if you don't believe they improved my soundstage, good for you.Been in this hobby for 45 years.
This is really interesting, I have never thought about that vibration aspect before! I am 71 and have at last gotten a decent entry level 200 turntable with speakers that allow me to once again hear stereo separation. After seeing your video I am glad I have a massive desk with a glass top to set it on. Our floor is wood laminate over concrete so that should be vary stable.This is good, yes?
Hi! Yes - I would imagine with the concrete that it will help control vibration. Our laminate was on plywood subflooring. A few months after that video we replaced the flooring in the room, stabilized the subfloor and installed thick carpet. The wall shelf was the perfect solution for vibrations in our situation.
Many years ago I had a Denon turntable that was prone to feedback. I built a pier out of concrete blocks and located the turntable on that. I was worse! The high mass of the concrete actually stores rather than dissipates the energy. Linn always advocated a low mass table because it would dissipate the energy quickly. I built a frame out of 1 x 4 lumber topped it with 3/8 plywood and used some of those steel hairpin shaped legs from the hardware store. Worked great. The wall mount shelf of course is the way to go if possible and I am not surprised that you noticed a dramatic improvement on several fronts.
-I find it amazing that this design has only just come back to life because I have had the Target Wall mounted shelf for 30yrs & find that you will not get a better sound from this type of item because you will not get a better return from your system anywhere else & if this is the new design which is going to be the best way to go about sound vibration then I have been working with my Target for a lifetime & hope that this is going to be the way forward.
I’ve placed felt under the feet of my turntables but the thing that limits my floor vibrations most are Furniture Sliders. I placed 4 sliders one under each foot of my turntable cabinet. I did it to move the cabinet across my wood floor but then thought I’ll keep them on and see if it helps decrease the floor vibrations. And it definitely did! I can practically fall on the floor and my records won’t skip. I used the fuzzy sliders they look like shag carpeting on the side that touches the floor. You can get them at any big box store and they’re cheap, and surprisingly look pretty good as well.
Love the presentation and all the comments. I have a brick house built in 1915 with original wood floors, no basement. Horrible vibration to my Thorens TD 160 despite a heavy desk laden with bricks. After unsuccessfully trying a granite slab, a thick wood butcher block, various acoustical padding, ISOAccoustics dampening feet and spring dampening feet, finally achieved substantial improvement by reinforcing the floors from underneath and placing the turntable in a literal sandbox. But the Pangea shelf appears intriguing, especially after learning the dampening effect of brick. So much wealth of knowledge posted here, many things to try. You really hit a nerve with this video. Thanks.
Thank you as well, Ken! I wish I had bought the shelf earlier. Love the sandbox idea. Another thing that has come up in this discussion is the dust cover. That's my next thing to look at.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords This is a "no-brainer". Remove the dust cover when actually playing your vinyl records, and replace it any time the TT is not in use. Most dust covers are relatively thin and light weight (no mass), so they will EASILY resonate just from being energized by the loudspeaker's and/or subwoofer's acoustic energy in the room, and that energy will transfer to the plinth and tonearm assembly, and directly through the air to the very delicate and susceptible stylus/cartridge as well.
@TenUversity I would imagine that the turntable's feet would settle and sink into the sand over time with vibration and general use. Or are you using some type of larger "free floating" platform set onto the surface of the sand within the sand box to help mitigate this? But doing so would inherently diminish the effectiveness of the absorbtion/isolation properties of the sand. I would also hope that you have constrained or encapsulated the sand, as 95% of all sand products will also have small dust and silt particles. I imagine that thoroughly washed and purified sand that is intended for use in fish aquariums would most likely be best in this regard. I would still want to encapsulate or contain the sand in some type of plastic sheeting or bag where it would still maintain its useful properties...a very tough and durable but thin, clear, and large Turkey Oven Bag comes to mind. I'm also assuming that you don't have any cats that might like to make use of your sand box. :P
Hell yeah! That's why I love youtube. Awesome people you can meet. My solution to improve isolation and vibration issues is to mount a turntable with a four ropes from the room corners, tighten up a little and make sure all the electric devices in the house are completely off, including wifi network and your phone. Put some foil on the windows from the outside, it's gonna help.
I've got a solution for yah! Grab some of those foam mats that Harbor Freight has in a 4 pack, cut it to size to place under your speakers and/or speaker stands and this should completely dampen the base from reaching the turntable quite a bit if not blocking the base all together. Also, try your very best not to allow your speakers to be any where's near the turntable at a minimum of 2 feet or better and that they are completely faced away from your from the turntable and then of course off of an existing wall by at least a foot. Back in 1986 I used to put carpet squares that had rubber backing and that did help along with a changeover of the rubber feet on the turntable itself and with the use of a lower volume setting and the dropping of the bass down some, this helped me out.
Circa 1980 ish, I built a 3/4 “ plywood shelf for my turntable . I mounted it to the wall with steel shelf brackets. I used long screws and screwed it into the wall studs behind the drywall. 16” centres, so my shelf was probably 18-20 “ wide. I covered the shelf in felt. You could jump up on down on the floor in front of the turntable and not affect it. So this video makes perfect sense to me. I’m curious to know if wall anchors were used or if it was screwed into the studs.
Hi Peter! Straight into the studs. The wall mount was setup for the 16" distance and the holes for the long screws are slightly widened to allow for adjustment. It made for an easy setup with a stud-finder. Cheers!
I actually keep my deck in the cupboard, it isolates it from speaker feedback as well. Yes even though i have a suspended wooden floor the grandkids can run around without me having a meltdown.
Great video, thanks! Besides turntable isolation try the same on the speakers too. I put Isoacoustics Gaia under mine and obtained the benefits you already saw on the stylus plus a tighter and more controlled bass response from the speakers.
Speaking of anti-gravity ... Back in my vinyl days, I used to get actual speaker-needle feedback. The system would suddenly come out with this dull roaring sound.. vibrations. The answer we worked out was a heavy turntable base, standing on 4 springs and, in turn on soft rubber feet, so the whole thing floated about a quarter inch above the stand. We could even stand in the middle of the room and jump up and down with a record on and nothing... no skips no boom from the speakers, nothing. There was also a ready to use turntable with a similar suspension that performed just as well as our DIY solution ... but for the life of me I can't remember who made it.
I have a set of isolation feet, Thought they would be a waste of time to put on my turn table until I saw this video. I will be setting this up today:), Hope it makes a different.
I put up a shelf for my LP12 when I had it and it was night & day, the best upgrade to my turntable I ever did. As you said I too couldn't believe the differences.
I really have to admit - I was shocked at the change, and I was only trying to prevent the skips when walking by. I had no idea the resolution would also improve.
@TheJoyofVinylRecords Congrats on eliminating those most detrimental of vibrations and improving your sound. However, the wall shelf only helped to mitigate and dampen the majority of the vertical displacement of the floor's transferred energy, not any lateral displacement in the wall itself, which is important to minimize for accurate tracking and isolation from vibration as well. Unless your walls are solid concrete or of heavy masonry construction (heavy mass), with typical drywall or lathe & plaster on spaced vertical stud walls, the drywall or plaster (or any wall sheathing) will act as a large membrane, similar to a large resonant bass drum head, or a speaker cone, and the wall will be laterally displaced by sound energy and vibration. For example, when the beater of my kick drum pedal strikes the head of my bass drum when playing my drum kit, all of the other much smaller tom drums and snare drum also resonate even though they are tuned to different frequencies and are oriented on a different plane that's almost 90° to the bass drum. You could actually think of the wall as being a large, low frequency microphone, except that the wall does not convert the pressure differentials into an electronic signal for amplification, and only results in an acoustic signal and vibration. A wall section is simply a free-floating floor in a vertical orientation. A simple example of the wall being a large resonating membrane is the experience of your windows or window blinds rattling, or rattling hanging framed wall art when playing music or movies with high SPL output from a subwoofer, or from a nearby sonic boom, artillery explosion, etc. And regarding the rigid spikes used with the Pangaea wall-mounted shelf, they Directly Couple the two surfaces, they Do Not effectively decouple them. I can understand each spike's function as an individual height & leveling adjustment for the TT platform, but in regards to Vibration Isolation and Decoupling, they certainly Do Not accomplish that goal effectively. Using simple tennis balls in place of the rigid spikes would be much more effective at isolation and decoupling the two structures or platforms! The best approach for isolation, decoupling, and damping of acoustical/vibrational energy is a multi-layer "pad" that uses generally soft materials that combine several different densities of materials with a barrier type product sandwiched between them. As an example of such a product, look at the multi-layered acoustic damping sheet product made primarily for car audio use which is called ''Black Hole 5" from Orca Design or ResoNix. ''Black Hole 5'' combines a layer of soft open cell acoustic foam on one side that is laminated to a 1/8" thick sheet of 1 Lb./Sq.Ft. mass loaded vinyl, which is again laminated to a heavier & denser closed cell sponge-type foam (i.e. neoprene) on the opposite side. On top of the Black Hole 5 sheet product, you will most likely need a more rigid and stable overlayment that is still very dense and has further damping properties to be used as a platform for the turntable's feet to rest on. I use a 1" thick solid rubber mat/sheet which is available at industrial suppliers such as Grainger and McMaster-Carr. There are also large, ~1" thick rubber mats made from recycled rubber granules for use in horse stalls and corrals. These large rubber mats can be found at most Tractor Supply Co stores or livestock feed & care suppliers and can be cut to size with a common circular or jig saw. If you need something that's much more rigid and dense for your TT platform, you can purchase 1.25'' thick sheet of UHMW-PE in black or white, and have it cut to size, but it will be quite expensive even for this relatively small size. A "cut-off" or remnant from a custom marble or granite countertop may be an option as well. Of course, most of these solutions are not "High-End/High-Tech" looking or aesthetically pleasing unless you use some ingenuity... I covered my entire DIY turntable base isolator/decoupling platform with a stretchy high-grade black speaker grill cloth fabric (check at Parts-Express, Madisound, or Solen Online). The seams in the stretchy fabric grill cloth are simply "glued" to the surface of the platform on the underside where they are hidden from view using 3M # 90 or # 77 Spray Adhesive (rubber contact cement). Prior to covering the platform with the speaker grill cloth, I lightly painted the entire platform assembly with a deep, flat black aerosol spray paint so that none of the different material types or surfaces would show through the grill cloth. This is a simple but, extremely effective solution that should cost less than $100. Others have already mentioned purpose-made Sorbothane-based isolation products which are excellent absorbers/dampers as well.
This is great stuff. Thank you for posting it! I just pulled up the Blackhole5 website (blackhole-america.com/#bhmat). I am planning to also do something with the amp and phono stage so this all helps.
I have a floating laminate floor over concrete slab. I have zero vibration through the floor. I suspect that would be a different story if I used this shelf. I have gotten some feedback that cleared up when I moved my floor standing speakers farther away from my equipment rack. If your record would skip just from walking past the rack, your floor is bouncing and probably not much due to the floating floor. If you have a basement and access to the underside of the floor, maybe you can stiffen the framing to reduce floor bounce from underneath.
Love your honesty and easy going friendly manner. Delighted you found the isolation solution. I’m sure you’ve heard of Paul Rigby (The Audiophile Man) who is a huge advocate of the isolating principle. He’s also a fan of the Soundeck pucks. I too have those. I got 6 of the mini type specifically for my quarter wave Castle Howard speakers. Unfortunately no matter where I place them underneath the base I don’t get an improvement. I’ve tried two at the front and one at the back and vice versa in direct contact with the wooden part. The sound seems to harden up which I definitely don’t like. I haven’t tried them on my turntable as I already have it isolated properly. It sits on a Mana stand on a bouncy wooden floor with a four foot basement below. The needle NEVER skips no matter what I do. Yet my second turntable on a Target stand suffers from footfall issues! The amplifiers are the venerable Crofts and they’re sitting on the same Target stand. I did try the pucks with them but heard no difference whatsoever. Finally cleaning the stylus before play and after every side works wonders. I use my trusty VPI gel only at the start and a single run carbon fibre brush for every side. Brilliant!
Thank you, Dermot! Yes - I've watched Paul's channel, and may have even seen Soundeck mentioned - I forget where I first heard of them. My next focus is the tube amp. I'm not sure if the pucks will help so I'm looking for an affordable platform for it. I also use a carbon fibre on my stylus. Typically every other play. Thanks for stopping by! Cheers 🍺🍺🍺
I forgot to mention I also have a US original vinyl of Flat Out. I absolutely love that album and especially the surprise ending in the shape of the acapella adaptation of Come Softly to Me. Genius. Also I’ve just realised that my very, very first Lp order online was, wait for it, On Your Feet or On Your Knees! I stopped following them after The Revolution by Night. So I’m intrigued with this final album. Great sleeve and title. Here’s hoping. Finally it be churlish of me not to recommend The Stalk-Forest Group’s first unreleased album. I have the double album version which I stumbled upon awhile back. It’s called The Stalk-Forest Group St. Cecilia - The Elektra Recordings. Donald Roeser is absolutely on fire. Stunning guitar solos on each and every track. For me his best guitar playing. ruclips.net/video/T3ExWZPGGtE/видео.htmlsi=Vs5NiJw2lImYVOOT
I will be trying to put my turntable on the wall. It's an inside wall but on the foundation as it's the garage wall. Wish me luck, and thanks for the info!
Make sure you drill your hole further than you need and counter sunk the wall plug into the wall by placing the screw and wacking it with a hammer 5mm in, do not have the plug flush with the surface! use the brown walk plugs with a 6mm No12 self tapper Flathead screw, a slit screw not Philips might be easier for you. Screw it in by hand with a good screwdriver if you find that screw tight going in put a bit of washing up liquid on the screw thread
Yes I have a Auralex platform which is placed under the turntable. Which works great. Also I have seen others using a IKEA bamboo cutting board. I am not sure how effective it is.
I've done four mods to my Dual 506 and they all made a striking difference to the sound. First was the swapping out the stock Ortofon cartridge and going with a Shure with hyperelliptical stylus. Next was the elimination of the dust cover. Thirdly, I swapped out the crappy manufacturer supplied generic rca interconnects and went with double shielded modern interconnects. Finally, I installed set of Vibrapod isolators to control vibration. These changes completely transformed the sound of my turntable for minimal cost.
The whole dust cover elimination is completely new to me. I've never spun with it closed but based on a ton of feedback today it sounds like there's a lot of advice to take it off completely when spinning. Learning new things constantly to try. Thanks Adam!
Hi great video, really well done, however, spikes only serve to maximise cupping to your stand/cupboard and depending on the stand/cupboard it will serve to absorb tiny vibrations from the record player. This is good but because of the mechanical coupling of the spikes it will to transmit external vibrations from the outside and into the record player. Simple physics. What you're hearing is the effective absorbtion of the stand/cupboard hence a wall bracket in your example sounds different and preferable. A decoupling solution is to isolate (not to make contact) with the stand/cupboard by using isolation tecniques such as soft rubber or complex air/magnetism specially designed for the purpose. As an example, on construction sites you can see how they install large A/C units or motors, they always use some type of syzmic isolation and deffinatley no directly coupled to the building.
Right on both counts , Alden! Fortunately for us, we tested and jumped in fro nt of the turntable once on the wall - no issues. It appears as good as it will get. The dust cover was on for the demo - not when really listening. Cheers! 🍺
My WOW moment of clarity was using a clamp/record weight...the first time I used it I noticed the soundstage widening... I got excited to play records I hadn't played for years...
I experienced something similar, Darryl with a record weight, It gets used with every record (other than 180 gram records to watch the weight on the suspension).
I heard that as well. It’s been a few months since I published this video. From what I understand, Pangea Audio expects to have more manufactured later this summer. I checked when I started to hear the supply was running short. Hang in there - worth the wait, seriously. I still consider it the best purchase I made for sound improvement.
I had a B&O RX2 that performed beautifly for several years. One day for reasons I never discovered it became so sensitive that it would pick up the voices of any one talking within a couple of feet of it. I tried to get it fixed but no one would work on it; it became landfill.
5:11 There is an anti gravity product on the market…well…actually a mag lev platter! eSseCi from Italy makes isolation floating boards that eliminate the influence of any external vibration. Amazing devices providing a true “black background” for turntables or any other source in your system susceptible to vibration.
I also use a wall shelf for my Rega P10, I replaced the standard laminated mdf shelf for a granite shelf to make the platform as sonically dead as possible.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords I bought it back in the late 80's by a company called Audio Innovation. I doubt that they're still in business though. I could probably need one under my Primaluna EVO400i too! Love the sound of valves (or tubes) and vinyl.
I ended up building a shelf that hung from the ceiling isolating it from the walls and the floor eliminating all vibrations, definitely improve the sound twofold.👍❤️🇨🇦
Perfect isolation would include the sound being introduced into the room and minimally picked up by your tonearm/cartridge. But I'm splitting hairs here. Right?
You had me at Bark at the Moon, since 1986 still my favorite record along with Iron Maiden S/T. I owned a Rega P3 and I have the same issue as you. I do tip toe every time I go near it. I don’t have that issue with the Fluance RT-85. I’ve seen that Pangea on the web, but it’s fucking pricey and I’m not quite there yet. Kool vid bud! Cheers JC/Miami
@@garrapaterorulez5017 Ya know, I think it's a respectable setup for the modest price range. I run it through a Cambridge 100w amp to a pair of (now vintage) Bowers & Wilkins floorstanding speakers. Sounds just fine to my 65yr old ears.
Everything you said is correct!!I won't bore anyone with the science but the will also be an inporvemt with a DC/EMI clipper on the Amp typically I isolate from the floor UP including each component ( P.S. the technique also work for digital) and those speakers
Yes, a shelf can improve sound quality dramatically. Works almost every time if the wall is rigid. Soft walls may be as bad as a cabinet and vibrating as a resonator exited by your bass. Shelf close to a corner is more rigid, but sound pressure level is also higher, which may vibrate the turntable. Sensitivity to transfer of vibration from cabinet or wall, also depends on the turntable construction and suspension and how the vibration frequencies influence the suspended system. Eg. Stiff plints like Rega are usually more sensitive than suspended decks like Linn LP12. You do not need to by an expensive wall mount. Two large rigid angled bench brackets from a hardware store, mounted precisely so adjustable legs of the turntable stand on them, are as good as the expensive shelf, and much cheaper.
I stumbled upon this phenomenon years ago when I found the sound field from a set of speakers powered by a slave amp and playing in another room was so much cleaner than the sound field produced by the setup I had in my main room containing the turntable, a more expensive master amplifier, and more expensive speakers. And this difference was most obvious when the remote speakers were playing and not the speakers in the room housing the turntable. It's clear to me that unless we are listening to a record through headphones, it is unrealistic to think a record is going to sound good or that the sound field will be impressive if the loud speakers are only a few feet from the turntable. Fancy dampening tricks aside, the bottom line is that there is no better way to isolate a turntable than to distance the loudspeakers from the turntable.
For $119 I made a similar wall shelf for my PL-7 that's in my living room hooked up to my surround sound system. For my other 3 turntables here in my music room that's not feasible. I used to have two of them hanging on a suspended platform. You'd have to see one of my older videos to see what I'm talking about. I finally got rid of it and set up a 3 individual platforms of MDF board with Adjustable Isolation Feet Pads Spring Speaker Protect Stands for each turntable. This is much better to manage and I only have a set of Klipsch's desktop speakers anyway so vibration isn't much of a problem. When I record I use headphones only and when I want to crank up my speakers it's still not a problem.
Sounds like you tamed the vibration beast! I'll check one of the older videos to see the suspended platform. For my other turntable in my testing area I have it on a Pangea shelf with spiked feet - which I should do a video about soon.
I agree about isolation and I also had a huge improvement by putting my turntable on a wall shelf. However, to imply that a wall does not vibrate is misleading. I think the floor vibrates more but both improvements are dependent on the effectiveness of the isolation itself. I have another turntable on a 3 shelf Pangea rack. But the turntable sits on top of another shelf isolated by Sound Addicted S Pods. And the results are every bit as good as the results from the wall shelf.
Except drywall vibrates, and if you can feel the vibration then the wall is feeling those vibrations and will transmit it to the turntable. I had to go to every hanging thing in my living room and put little rubber pads on the corners of frames because when I tried to play the music loud, not ear bleeding levels but sort of loud, those picture frames would rattle against the wall, why? Because the base was causing the drywall to vibrate. Now if my picture frames are vibrating then the Pangea shelf is also vibrating. My floor also has vinyl wood flooring, but it's sets on top of some sort of barrier, but that barrier is on top of concrete, so my floor doesn't bounce like yours, I could jump up and down all day and it won't transmit any vibration onto the turntable. If you can prove me wrong about the wall vibrating then please tell me how that shelf can work.
Seems like the same speaker/floor vibrations would travel from the floor to the wall & up the wall to the wall shelf. But if you perceive an improvement, that's all that matters.
Fortunately any vibrations that travel up the wall a very very minimal. As a test I jumped during playback where small footsteps affected it before putting the shelf up and nothing happened😎
Now you need to isolate the speakers from the floor since they are sending vibrations to your equipment on the cabinet. Perhaps Iso Acoustics or Townshend podium platforms. Especially effective if you have a suspended wood floor.
Glad you mentioned that! I am looking at a few options. We removed the laminate floor and I am looking at isolation platforms for the amp. It's between 70-80lbs so options are expensive.
I had a similar problem with a vintage Thorens TD-160 sitting on a VERY heavy 6-foot-long wooden console cabinet that I even bolted to the wall in order to reduce vibrations from the floor. (My stand-mounted speakers did not touch the console.) I put the turntable itself on an extremely heavy 2-inch-think wood block with its own set of acoustic isolation feet for an extra layer of "decoupling." It worked OK, but when my 65-pound German Shepherd would get exited and run around the living room, there was no keeping the stylus in the groove. (She has a tendency to bump into things. Like walls and doorways.) I eventually upgraded to a newer semi-automatic turntable with a more sophisticated isolation system (a Music Hall Classic with a similar wood plinth) and that took care of it. I love the look and feel of my Thorens (for which I bought a new custom dust cover to replace the cloudy original), but I think it may be headed for ebay...
Completely subjective. It’s like putting in reader glasses and suddenly can see things so much clearer. More than 50% doesn’t feel right but less than that doesn’t do the change justice. Listening to a record as I type this and the sound improvement is so pronounced I’m shocked. I was only trying to solve the floor problem but this solved one I didn’t know I had.
The article was very interesting. I found that Vinyl replay and valve amplifiers benefited from correct placement with a view to reducing vibration. Valve amps in particular create their own issues with the tubes being a large source of vibration. Keep up the good work
My Thorens TD 150 TT - with Rega RB 300 arm and Goldring 1042 cartridge - is on a granite shelf, which is fixed to the Gable End wall of my home. Under the TT are four rubber Castor Cups, designed for use under furniture castors, to prevent damage to carpets. These add further isolation to the TT. A NAD Neoprene TT Mat is on top of the Cast Alloy TT Platter, kills Platter Ringing. Tapping on the granite shelf with the Stylus in the groove, causes no interference. No thump, or other extraneous noises. World Design 3 Valve Phono Pre-Amp, with World Audio Design KLPP1 Pre-Amp and WAD K5881 Mk 2 Valve Power Amp, complete the system, connected to KEF iQ30 Stand Mounted Speakers. Previously, I had a pair of Quad ESL 57 Speakers, which were brilliant for Voice and acoustic music, but lacked depth for Organ Music and Rock music. The Rolling Stone 'Paint It Black' - or John Williams version of Bach's 'Toccata' from his 'Sky 3' album - just didn't cut it through the Quads. They also took up a lot of space in my living room, due to needing to be kept away from the walls, to allow them to 'breath'; being Dipole Radiators. I tried various layouts for the system, but none of them really worked, due to location of Door; Full-width Window; Storage heater and serving hatch. The location of Mains Power Sockets, all of which were on the Gable End wall, made it impossible to plug in the Quads and the system, without yards of extension cables. I loved the Quads through the Valve system, but needs as needs must and they had to go. Some days, Life Sucks.
Completely agree, Russ. Some days it really does suck. I face something similar with a less than optimal room. Love the description of the granite shelf and the neoprene mat. I've been thinking about changing my mat so will look into this one.
I invented an isolation system for my recording system. It's not meant to playback through speakers just monitor headphones so it's the cleanest analogue to digital transfer unit - Speakers blasting will ALWAYS be a problem if the turntable is in the same room - not much you can do about that - you can place it in the least resonating position but it will still pick up all sorts of frequencies ..again if it's in the same room. Optimal if you have a listening room.. to have your turntable in another room.
Hi Dean - I did a video about my setup a couple months ago : ruclips.net/video/frjxvVIHJqA/видео.htmlsi=wtNa8VE7xPMnFe14 The phono stage I use is the Tavish Classic (tube phono stage).
I guess I have the perfect spot for my vinyl setup, a marble slab cemented straight into the foundation of my house. Even if I jumped on the marble portion, raised above the rest of the floor and isolated by a 1/4inch gap from the flooring it wouldn't vibrate a single bit. The spot used to be used for a 600 pound fireplace that has since been removed so I think I'm set even without any extra dampening outside of turntables feet.
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Great video and obviously a great product. Being a pensioner and a woodworker I built a wooden box about 4 inches deep and large enough to mount the turntable on. Filled it with dry sand and topped off with a 6mm plate glass sheet levelled carefully. Then two brackets attached to a sturdy wall completed the project and as you say, s--o--u--n--d s--t--a--g--e is so much wider!
Wow. That's amazing, Allan! Cheers!
Sand is one of the very best vibration dampeners.........
I made a TT mat out of bubble wrap, you should try it.....
@PrinceFluffy I've been leveling a coating of kitty litter.
Excellent ....isolating the table is vital, and the only thing I would add to that suggestion is to mount that shelf on an exterior wall, hopefully anchored in the studs that are resting on the foundation. Now you can invite the dancers into the room.
That's exactly what this is - exterior wall resting on the foundation - you nailed it. Cheers!
I agree, vibrations are the nemesis of good sound ...also pictures made with long exposures. Let me start with my system: a Sota Sapphire which is suspended. It is mounted on a heavy base cabinet. Mindful of my experience as a scientific photographer, my macro photo system was isolated by simply installing the base with feet embedded in sand, massive isolation from external vibration. But the key was to identify if the vibrations exist and the test for that was simple, a breaker if water placed on the plinth, you can visually be determined: if the water is still there are no vibrations to be concerned with. At this point I have not moved toward the sand dampening.😮
I've created a system of using magnets, specifically magnetic repulsion. My turntable floats in the room.
I thought you were going to say a stylus brush. Cleaning stylus from back to front gives me a 50% improvement. I set my turntable on the ikea cutting board, then the cutting board sits on top of 4 natural sponges. Works great for vibration feedback. Got idea from the gabster channel.
A stylus brush is definitely key, you're right. Cheers!
Great video. I’ve had an isolation shelf for my turntable for over 10 years now and I agree with you the isolation shelf was THE best piece of hi-fi equipment I have ever bought. I can jump up and down on my spring floor in front of the deck if I want to while a record is playing and nothing affects it at all, the shelf is as solid as a rock and I agree it really is one of the best improvements you can make to a system.
I was sincerely shocked, Nigel, when I heard the improvement. It was not my goal, being focused on the vibrations, but now I'm an apostle for isolation.
Good advice. I changed the footing on my turntable to Orea isoAcoustic isolations and the turntable mat to use Les Davies high performance slip mat. I also placed the system on the tiled hearth and off the sprung wooden floor. The response was evidently improved.
I just looked up the slipmat , Leonardo. Thanks for the heads up on that - hadn't heard of it!
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords Excellent. I live in the UK, and following research l emailed a Hi-Fi dealer in Australia. The dealer didn’t ship to the UK but suggested if l knew a friend in Australia they would ship to my friend(shipping was free internally) It was much cheaper for me do it like that. A great mat.
Steve McCormack had solutions for vibration in 1992. He sold them out of his Mod Squad outlet in Leucadia, California. His mods, including Tiptoes and Sorbathane mats, were the best bang for the audiophile buck.
The Tiptoes were/are brilliant! I still use mine.🤗
But if you really want to defeat their purpose &:ruin how they work, put coins or stupid metal cups under them so that they have something to resonate against so that they don't do any possible cosmetic damage to the surface underneath them.🫣🙄😑
Which I noticed is what's on the underside of that stupid Pangea wall mount, so the upward-facing spikes can't penetrate into the sound-destroying thin crappy resonant painted pressboard shelf AND DO THEIR JOB!!! 🤣🤣🤣🙄
WHO CARES about cosmetic damage, tiny little divots into the UNDERSIDE of a cheap piece of wood-like board? Where you can't even see them???🤪🤤🤤🤤
Spikes work best when they can get a bit of purchase into the surface you put them on. Wood & laminate ones are the best for them; IT'S WHAT THEY WERE DESIGNED FOR!🤓🤔
In fact, we used to position spiked speakers at their chosen position by leaning on top of them to drive the spikes in real good!🧟
But for the cosmetically paranoid & otherwise squeamish, a company named Black Diamond Racing came along later &'made carbon-fibre clones of the aluminium "Tip-Toes", whose tips weren't as hard & so did alot less surface damage.
With the late 80's demise of the turntable, both products then faded away & disappeared from the market.
So YES! We need them both back now!🤗
But as for those Sorbothane mats...YECCCH!🙉🙉🙉
I bought a Mod Squad CD player and some Tiptoes from Steve in the late 80's.
@@joerosen5464 So simple solution for the Pangea wall mount would be to knock of the discs on the bottom of the shelf I guess. Makes sense. I used to press the spikes on my speakers through the carpet and into the plywood subfloor. What material would you recommend to make another shelf for the Pangea? Marble, Maple butcher block, or??? Or what wall mount would be a better option? One other note on the Pangea is that the Netan support for the shelf is bolted in to the wall plate. This should have been welded. 45 degree bracing should have been used as well.
Totally agree! That is why apart from looking after room acoustics and a separate electrical ring mains for my listening room I have invested in proper isolating racks. I also suspended my main speakers and subwoofer on Max Townshend's Siesmic Isolation Podiums that decouple the speakers from the room. It totally works!
Thanks Ian! I am considering the rabbit hole of electrical work as well for our listening room. Never ending journey! Thanks for weighing in 🍺🍺🍺
Folded towels underneath. Works for microphone stands/feedback too.
Not surprised at the improvement from use of a wall shelf which is the ideal solution if space and decor allow.
However you would have experienced a big improvement if you had just got rid of that massive heavy cabinet underneath the TT.
It may seem counterintuitive, but large heavy cabinets are the absolute pits where vibration is concerned - light, spiked and rigid is the way to go if a wall shelf is not suitable.
I haven't tried this myself but I have heard that worthwhile improvements are also possible by isolating the amplifier as well - lots of HiFi furniture suppliers make simple spiked boards available for this purpose.
Another interesting and sensible video unspoiled by silly tweaks and HiFi jargon so thanks for that.
Cheers, Keir! I am actually looking into an affordable isolation platform for the tube amp to handle microphonics. If you hear of any let me know 🍺
By far the greatest source of vibration in a record player is due to the stylus-groove interface.
You can engineer away other sources of vibration such as motor noise, bearing noise and environmental noise but you still have to have the stylus in the groove. The energy from the stylus will cause both the tonearm and platter to vibrate in sympathy.
The best products I have found to reduce the transmission of vibration into the arm and deck are those from the Funk Firm, the Houdini and Acromat. Cheaper, but less effective, solutions are available from Origin Live.
As you have suspended flooring I would definitely suggest decoupling your speakers from the floor. ISO kinetics Gaia or Townshend podiums will make a huge difference. At the moment you are pumping bass into your floor which will be resonating and booming like a drum.
And spikes couple, they do not decouple. Get rid of the spikes on your turntable shelf and replace with something that decouple.
Thanks Nathan! Any suggestion on decoupling?
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords
As your Thorens uses undamped springs in its suspension I would recommend against using springs for any additional decoupling. I would suggest something elastomer based. Again ISO Acoustics springs to mind.
The advantage of your current spikes is that they offer leveling. Possibly keep them and add sorbothane feet to the deck itself.
My main point with my comment about spikes is that there is this industry wide miss-apprehension that spikes decouple. In hifi spikes are rarely a good thing.
@@nathanevans6277 Thanks Nathan!
The energy from the stylus interface has enough power to move the platter ?
I guess that makes sense, since they are touching one another with only a platter mat for a protection layer.
Good information regarding spikes. I have pondered their effectiveness but with no direct research I had previously made the assumption that the rampant industry promotion of the spikes surely MUST mean that they are effective. My mistake.
Thank you gentlemen for the thought provoking conversation.
@@williamdenton5716 if you have a mechanics stethoscope and a deck where you can access the base of the bearing whilst playing a record you can perform a little experiment that shows just how much energy is transmitted into the platter by the stylus. With the volume turned down put the end of the stethoscope against the bearing housing and you will clearly hear the music.
You can do the same at the arm base to hear that a lot of energy is being transferred into the arm. Of course the style of bearings used will have a big impact on how much energy is transmitted.
I believe that it is preferable to have both main bearing and arm bearings couple securely to the plinth/sub-chassis. This generates a path to allow energy to flow away from the cartridge. The plinth/sub-chassis then wants to be decoupled from the rest of the world.
Thanks for the great video and recommendations! I didn’t have the patience to look online for a shelf or something similar. I found four furniture sliders for carpets and placed them on top of four rotoscrub pads that attach to your drill. Items sitting there in a drawer in my office. I am blown away. All the instruments are more defined. Soundstage is fantastic!
Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best 🍺
I've been thinking of tackling this issue as I still have to tiptoe around my living room when playing a record. I hadn't imagined isolating my player would much a 50% increase in sound quality. I'm sold. I'm currently using rubber feet under my standard turntable feet. They've helped a little but not solved the issue. Great video. You tackle many topics that are rolling around in my head. Thanks!
You're welcome, David! This one came as a complete surprise to me as my goal was the floor issue. I had no idea how much the other, more subtle vibrations were getting to it.
Improved tt isolation will also reduce rumble and acoustic feedback. I built a sandbox for my tt. I found a diy article about it. Just a box big enough for your deck filled with sand maybe 3" deep and the top cut to 1/2" or so less than the frame so it fits on top of the sand without touching the box. Level the sand to about the thickness of the top. Use a piece of cardboard with 1/2" or so notches to drag the sand level.
It depends also on type of construction of building. Here in Europe, the vast majority of houses are made of bricks and concrete, or even bricks made out of concrete. There is minimal vibration in the room walking through it if you don`t have cheap hollow laminate on the floor, but a wooden parkett.
Been using a TT Target shelf since the 80’s, if your system isn’t on a concrete floor ie. basement of a house the only way to go is a wall mount. Another tip is to remove your dust cover completely when doing some serious listening. It’s picking up all sorts of vibrations. Playing around with turntables has always been the best part of audio for myself. Experimenting with arms, platter mats, cartridges, stuff that doesn’t cost big money but at times makes a huge difference.
CD players and DAC’s just doesn’t give you the same experience.
Great video, I’m sure it with help a few guys. 😎
Thanks Derek. The dust cover advice has come up a number of times. Thanks for mentioning it!
One of my systems is in the sunroom, concrete floor. The room has a lot of windows but it is still the best sounding system in my house.
Yes you are right. Remove the dust cover. M
I only put the dust cover on while I am not using the turntable. Also using an ion producing fan near the turntable reduces the presence of static electricity.
@@elgustoesmiochupaki6119 Same with the dust cover - it's off when playing (although I think for the demo in the video it was on). Great idea about the fan!
The best way to improve your sound is to never plat a Motley Crue album...
😂😂😂😂
What if i have Good Vibrations by the Beach Boys? Does that count?
I wpuld say this person rreally needs to get laid, but that would cause vibrations.
Motley Crue is not bad recordings. Rolling Stones are.
Plat?
I have heard Technics SL-1200 hooked up to a rack of amps totaling 7000W RMS in a nightclub built out of a prefab concrete basement lined with carpet so the vibration they were withstanding was phenomenal. The dance floor had 8 sets of JBL top/mid range ceiling mounted and 4 sets of floor mounted bass speakers as well as the old 8 dance floor ceiling mounted speakers relocated throughout the club.
When the volume was raised to about 80% the coins were jumping in the cash drawers of the McDonalds on the ground floor upstairs.
I wonder how the SL-1200 compares these days?
Love the visual of the coins rattling and jumping in the cash drawers. 😂😂😂
I bought the present house since it had a walk-out basement. I have a room in one of the corners where the 3 walls ( side walls and the wall in front of me are concrete) , and the floor is concrete , and I have placed rugs on the floor.. The ceiling and the wall behind me are not .
I have Tube amps , Turn tables . A pair of speakers and a pair of subwoofers . A lot of power but no vibrations .
My previous house had hardwood floors , had vibration issues.
That's awesome. Vibration free, We are looking at other ways to improve our listening room.
As a vinyl DJ, the feedback effect of loud bass through the turntable decks is well known and a pain in clubs. Hence there are many things available to try and isolate the decks. I use isolation boots from MK Stands in clubs which dramatically improves the sound and allows the volume to be increased without feedback.
Good to know! Just looked them up. I have to say, they look very cool.
My second floor apartment's floor is concrete carpeted cheaply . I had muddy bass , which I wasn't very aware of . I installed Herbie's Audio Lab giant threaded studs into my floor standing speakers hoping to reduce how much Bass energy was disturbing my downstairs neighbor lady . About 2 weeks later I realized what was missing in my sound was the muddiness in the Bass .
I too had a vibration issue from my Martin Logan's causing the glass top stand my PL-518 is sitting on to vibrate. The feet of the turntable damped some of it, but not all of it, so I made a wall shelf of my own, and it helped a lot. No more vibrations on the shelf, but yet I could feel subtle vibrations on the turntable itself. What I discovered was the turntable dust cover was the source of vibration, transmitting it into the turntable. As my room is fairly dust free, the simplest solution was to remove the duct cover whenever I play an LP, and being sure to put it back on when I was done.
Depends on what the wall that one is mounting the shelf to is on.
Exactly, I had the opposite effect when I did my wall mount even though I mounted it directly to the studs in the wall and it still would get wall vibration with the drywall construction of the house.
Great idea.. but won't it pick up potential vibrations from the wall ? Regardless, happy that you found something that works for you for so little cost !!!
I thought that as well so I tested it by jumping. I think it's impossible to eliminate every vibration, but as far as reduction goes - it was a huge improvement. Might be the biggest one I've made.
Funny how the ‘ol algorithm works because until 15 mins ago I was unaware of your channel. Terrific video. My entire system, fronted by my turntable, has been mothballed for 18 months+ after the living room in which it was resident for 25 years was renovated. Next project under way is to renovate and re-purpose one son’s old bedroom into a somewhat dedicated music and listening room but still functional spare room. The funny thing is I am already trying to figure out where to put my turrntable shelf for when the system is reignited. Amazingly, I have had that 'table sitting on a "Target TT1" wall-mounted shelf (of near identical design to that Pangea) for over 35 years. Your video also made me realize that the TT1 shelf is the oldest component in my system. I likely haven’t appreciated how much of a contribution it has been making for the simple reason it’s just been there for so long. Great work and thanks…earned subscriber here.
Thank you as well Marcus! It's a constant journey and I have to admit , both frustrating and enlightening. It keeps me going.
Two things that cut vibration Mass and Rubber.
I have a rega P6 which is mounted on sorbathane 3" half spheres which makes leveling the turntable easy. Then mounted on a 15"x15" patio cement block painted black which is then mounted on an outdoor recycled stair tread cut to the size of the patio block mounted on my cabinet. And it didn't cost a lot .A good diy project. And you save a lot of money.
Very cool, Eugene. Cheers!
I am right on the foundation with a tile floor of the house, I have a medical steel cabinet full of books /magazines,and installed a 3/4 In birch top. On top of that there's these mats in the dollar store,and that was about it. The speakers were on wood tables. I spun records like that with no issues for many years..
👏👏👏 Finally a reviewer who acknowledged the only complete solution to turntable vibration problems. 35 years ago, when I bought my Linn LP12, I experienced all the problems you described as having, especially footfalls. The LP12 suspension, as well as the one on your Thorens, are notorious for their sensitivity to infrasonic frequencies, namely footfalls, as those suspensions are tuned to reject audio frequencies. That’s also why you can lower your dust cover while playing an album as the suspension isolates the tonearm and platter from the plinth, to which the dust cover is attached. A commenter below really nailed it by pointing out the ideal solution for mounting the wall shelf on the studs of an exterior wall, which sit on the foundation which extends several feet (or more with a basement) into the ground. And, in many cases, those studs are lashed to an exterior brick wall, further damping matters. My only suggestion, and it’s more a preference, is to mount the turntable at mid-torso height. That way, by not having to bend over to access your ‘table you are more stable when handling your vinyl and, especially, when handling your tonearm. I still like to hand cue. 😮 Thanks for the video!
And thank you for weighing in Dan! I sincerely appreciate it. Cheers!
I own an LP12 and what I did was in my room that has oak floors, I was able to locate the problem boards, then screw them tight plus countersink them to the floor joists below. I used a drill countersink tool from Dewalt that not only pre-drills the whole but also makes a beveled hole that accepts an oak plug that fits perfectly. Simply stain the oak plug, line up the grain, and glue it in with Titebond. Solved the problem + looks fabulous!
"finally"? Where have you been?
@@trackingangle929That you, Fremer?
Excellent video, I have a solid floor but my turntable sits on a wooden cabinet similar to yours, but I don't suffer from floor resonance as you do, but did have resonance from the cabinet itself if touched or knocked, so my solution was quite ingenious even if I say so myself, I bought a 2cm (3/4") thick granite kitchen chopping board from Ebay for £21 which is about $25 dollars, it came with six thick rubber feet, so now when I tap the cabinet no noise is picked up by the stylus 😊what with the rubber feet then the thick granite working together to kill any resonance getting to the turntable ! 👍
That's perfect, Colin - and for $25. Can't beat that. Cheers!
This makes a lot of sense in terms of the Physics of vibration. I myself have a sturdy concrete floor and my STst MOTE 2 turntable is mounted on a double slap of granite with sorbothane in between, that sits itself on 4 damping tri-spike viablue feet on a ceaktive rack. It works audibly in removing the vibrations that the loudspeakers convey through the air via the creaktive rack. But I immediately believe that the wall type decoupling you describe would also work. Very useful tip, thanks!!
When it comes to vibration mitigation - sounds like you won't have anything to worry about with your setup, Rudy 😎.
The wall is acting as an extension of the bass speakers show coupling them together often works wonderfully
My turntable sits on the cement foundation of our house on a tile floor atop a stack of 3 - 4 box shelving units that are separated from the floor and each other by jel spacers/pads. You can jump on or drop anything near it without issue, and I’ve tested it more then a few times on purpose and accident, lol! I have even “hit” the top shelve where the turntable sits during playback without interference so the only source that may be effecting sound is vibration from the unit itself and I’m not worried enough about that to do anything about it unless something becomes noticeable. Blessings
Hi Adam! That's the kind of setup everyone would enjoy - just as you described. I think if you had a problem with the unit itself it would have made itself known to you. Hope all is well on your end!
My phono preamp has a rumble filter. Technics direct drive - amazing - no worries here. Or maybe my hearing isnt up to par w some folks lol
I remember visiting my dad's friend with my dad in the 80's. The guy was an engineer and did not stop improving his stereo until he had it perfect. I don't remember the whole system, but he had a pillar coming up through the floor from the ground below that did not touch the floor just for his turntable. I was really impressed. Myself, I've had good luck with a product called a Auralex turntable isolation platform under my Rega P6
That's wild - the pillar through the floor. If he ever sold the house I wonder how the new owners explained the mysterious pillar to visitors,
Auralex makes a good product.
Hi from Australia. Being a DJ, Audio/Visual engineeer feedback is always a problem but you're the only person I've heard that did the obvious...isolate it from the floor by installing a shelf and brackets into the brick wall and buying a decent unit and you can jump around the whole room without any feedback. Cheers.
Cheers Andrew! 🍺🍺🍺
so your walls don't vibrate from the bass of your speakers hence effecting your wall mount turntable?
That was my question.
Not at all. I wondered the same thing so as a test I jumped up and down to see if I could make the needle jump. Nope 😎
I have wood floors and the same issue with skipping with my Thorens TD-160. I literally have to tiptoe away after I drop the needle. I idea is to add a deep shelf so it can accommodate the turntable and its hinged dust cover. Then add some isolating feet too.
It does appear to be a thing with the TD-160s, Gary. I've read about it on various forums too. Amazing sound, but there is the need to compensate for the suspension.
Let me know how it goes.
Had my old thorens on my stand with all my gear on it.The amp weighed 65 lbs alone, I had no issues. My newer pro-ject acrylic has no damping anywhere.I was getting vibration from my sub through the stand into the stylus. I built an isolation stand with rubber feet and springs, no more vibrations into my stylus. My power chords improved my soundstage quite a bit, they are not for sale and if you don't believe they improved my soundstage, good for you.Been in this hobby for 45 years.
That's the second time power chords came up in this discussion. Another rabbit hole for me to jump into - cheers!
Great video. Interesting how such improvements can be achieved. Cheers.
Cheers, Peter! 🍻
This is really interesting, I have never thought about that vibration aspect before! I am 71 and have at last gotten a decent entry level 200 turntable with speakers that allow me to once again hear stereo separation. After seeing your video I am glad I have a massive desk with a glass top to set it on. Our floor is wood laminate over concrete so that should be vary stable.This is good, yes?
Hi! Yes - I would imagine with the concrete that it will help control vibration. Our laminate was on plywood subflooring. A few months after that video we replaced the flooring in the room, stabilized the subfloor and installed thick carpet. The wall shelf was the perfect solution for vibrations in our situation.
Many years ago I had a Denon turntable that was prone to feedback. I built a pier out of concrete blocks and located the turntable on that. I was worse! The high mass of the concrete actually stores rather than dissipates the energy. Linn always advocated a low mass table because it would dissipate the energy quickly. I built a frame out of 1 x 4 lumber topped it with 3/8 plywood and used some of those steel hairpin shaped legs from the hardware store. Worked great. The wall mount shelf of course is the way to go if possible and I am not surprised that you noticed a dramatic improvement on several fronts.
Thanks Robert - cheers! 🍺
That was a K.A. video !! Hell yeah thanks man !
Thanks Tee-Jay!
-I find it amazing that this design has only just come back to life because I have had the Target Wall mounted shelf for 30yrs & find that you will not get a better sound from this type of item because you will not get a better return from your system anywhere else & if this is the new design which is going to be the best way to go about sound vibration then I have been working with my Target for a lifetime & hope that this is going to be the way forward.
I have to admit - I was incredibly pleased and surprised by it. I knew it would solve one problem but had no idea I had the other problem. Cheers!
I’ve placed felt under the feet of my turntables but the thing that limits my floor vibrations most are Furniture Sliders. I placed 4 sliders one under each foot of my turntable cabinet. I did it to move the cabinet across my wood floor but then thought I’ll keep them on and see if it helps decrease the floor vibrations. And it definitely did! I can practically fall on the floor and my records won’t skip. I used the fuzzy sliders they look like shag carpeting on the side that touches the floor. You can get them at any big box store and they’re cheap, and surprisingly look pretty good as well.
Love this - thanks for sharing that.
Love the presentation and all the comments. I have a brick house built in 1915 with original wood floors, no basement. Horrible vibration to my Thorens TD 160 despite a heavy desk laden with bricks. After unsuccessfully trying a granite slab, a thick wood butcher block, various acoustical padding, ISOAccoustics dampening feet and spring dampening feet, finally achieved substantial improvement by reinforcing the floors from underneath and placing the turntable in a literal sandbox. But the Pangea shelf appears intriguing, especially after learning the dampening effect of brick. So much wealth of knowledge posted here, many things to try. You really hit a nerve with this video. Thanks.
Thank you as well, Ken! I wish I had bought the shelf earlier. Love the sandbox idea. Another thing that has come up in this discussion is the dust cover. That's my next thing to look at.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords
This is a "no-brainer". Remove the dust cover when actually playing your vinyl records, and replace it any time the TT is not in use.
Most dust covers are relatively thin and light weight (no mass), so they will EASILY resonate just from being energized by the loudspeaker's and/or subwoofer's acoustic energy in the room, and that energy will transfer to the plinth and tonearm assembly, and directly through the air to the very delicate and susceptible stylus/cartridge as well.
@TenUversity
I would imagine that the turntable's feet would settle and sink into the sand over time with vibration and general use.
Or are you using some type of larger "free floating" platform set onto the surface of the sand within the sand box to help mitigate this?
But doing so would inherently diminish the effectiveness of the absorbtion/isolation properties of the sand.
I would also hope that you have constrained or encapsulated the sand, as 95% of all sand products will also have small dust and silt particles. I imagine that thoroughly washed and purified sand that is intended for use in fish aquariums would most likely be best in this regard.
I would still want to encapsulate or contain the sand in some type of plastic sheeting or bag where it would still maintain its useful properties...a very tough and durable but thin, clear, and large Turkey Oven Bag comes to mind.
I'm also assuming that you don't have any cats that might like to make use of your sand box. :P
@@bbfoto7248 I do when I'm actually playing. For demo purposes (and my laziness) I left it on.
Hell yeah! That's why I love youtube. Awesome people you can meet. My solution to improve isolation and vibration issues is to mount a turntable with a four ropes from the room corners, tighten up a little and make sure all the electric devices in the house are completely off, including wifi network and your phone. Put some foil on the windows from the outside, it's gonna help.
Love that! 🤣🍺
I've got a solution for yah! Grab some of those foam mats that Harbor Freight has in a 4 pack, cut it to size to place under
your speakers and/or speaker stands and this should completely dampen the base from reaching the turntable quite a bit
if not blocking the base all together. Also, try your very best not to allow your speakers to be any where's near the turntable
at a minimum of 2 feet or better and that they are completely faced away from your from the turntable and then of course
off of an existing wall by at least a foot. Back in 1986 I used to put carpet squares that had rubber backing and that did help
along with a changeover of the rubber feet on the turntable itself and with the use of a lower volume setting and the dropping
of the bass down some, this helped me out.
Thanks Craig - cheers! 🍺
Circa 1980 ish, I built a 3/4 “ plywood shelf for my turntable . I mounted it to the wall with steel shelf brackets. I used long screws and screwed it into the wall studs behind the drywall. 16” centres, so my shelf was probably 18-20 “ wide. I covered the shelf in felt. You could jump up on down on the floor in front of the turntable and not affect it. So this video makes perfect sense to me. I’m curious to know if wall anchors were used or if it was screwed into the studs.
Hi Peter! Straight into the studs. The wall mount was setup for the 16" distance and the holes for the long screws are slightly widened to allow for adjustment. It made for an easy setup with a stud-finder. Cheers!
I actually keep my deck in the cupboard, it isolates it from speaker feedback as well. Yes even though i have a suspended wooden floor the grandkids can run around without me having a meltdown.
Now that's a great solution!
Great video, thanks!
Besides turntable isolation try the same on the speakers too. I put Isoacoustics Gaia under mine and obtained the benefits you already saw on the stylus plus a tighter and more controlled bass response from the speakers.
Thanks Eduardo! I've checked out Gaia. I should pull thr trigger and get them at some point.
Speaking of anti-gravity ...
Back in my vinyl days, I used to get actual speaker-needle feedback. The system would suddenly come out with this dull roaring sound.. vibrations.
The answer we worked out was a heavy turntable base, standing on 4 springs and, in turn on soft rubber feet, so the whole thing floated about a quarter inch above the stand. We could even stand in the middle of the room and jump up and down with a record on and nothing... no skips no boom from the speakers, nothing.
There was also a ready to use turntable with a similar suspension that performed just as well as our DIY solution ... but for the life of me I can't remember who made it.
I'm constantly learning new things Douglas. Cheers!
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords
Absolutely. Every day it's something new!
Nice looking plinth on your Thorens! I have a TD 145 👊🏻
Thanks! I had Dave at Vinyl Nirvana put that together for me. I've seen yours too - I've been subscribed to your channel for quite some time - 😀
I have a set of isolation feet, Thought they would be a waste of time to put on my turn table until I saw this video. I will be setting this up today:), Hope it makes a different.
If you do I would love to hear the results. Always learning here!
I put up a shelf for my LP12 when I had it and it was night & day, the best upgrade to my turntable I ever did. As you said I too couldn't believe the differences.
I really have to admit - I was shocked at the change, and I was only trying to prevent the skips when walking by. I had no idea the resolution would also improve.
Im using a heavy sterio bench and a pair of concrete speakers helps alot to get ridd of the vibrations
That would do it!
@TheJoyofVinylRecords
Congrats on eliminating those most detrimental of vibrations and improving your sound.
However, the wall shelf only helped to mitigate and dampen the majority of the vertical displacement of the floor's transferred energy, not any lateral displacement in the wall itself, which is important to minimize for accurate tracking and isolation from vibration as well.
Unless your walls are solid concrete or of heavy masonry construction (heavy mass), with typical drywall or lathe & plaster on spaced vertical stud walls, the drywall or plaster (or any wall sheathing) will act as a large membrane, similar to a large resonant bass drum head, or a speaker cone, and the wall will be laterally displaced by sound energy and vibration.
For example, when the beater of my kick drum pedal strikes the head of my bass drum when playing my drum kit, all of the other much smaller tom drums and snare drum also resonate even though they are tuned to different frequencies and are oriented on a different plane that's almost 90° to the bass drum.
You could actually think of the wall as being a large, low frequency microphone, except that the wall does not convert the pressure differentials into an electronic signal for amplification, and only results in an acoustic signal and vibration.
A wall section is simply a free-floating floor in a vertical orientation.
A simple example of the wall being a large resonating membrane is the experience of your windows or window blinds rattling, or rattling hanging framed wall art when playing music or movies with high SPL output from a subwoofer, or from a nearby sonic boom, artillery explosion, etc.
And regarding the rigid spikes used with the Pangaea wall-mounted shelf, they Directly Couple the two surfaces, they Do Not effectively decouple them.
I can understand each spike's function as an individual height & leveling adjustment for the TT platform, but in regards to Vibration Isolation and Decoupling, they certainly Do Not accomplish that goal effectively.
Using simple tennis balls in place of the rigid spikes would be much more effective at isolation and decoupling the two structures or platforms!
The best approach for isolation, decoupling, and damping of acoustical/vibrational energy is a multi-layer "pad" that uses generally soft materials that combine several different densities of materials with a barrier type product sandwiched between them.
As an example of such a product, look at the multi-layered acoustic damping sheet product made primarily for car audio use which is called ''Black Hole 5" from Orca Design or ResoNix.
''Black Hole 5'' combines a layer of soft open cell acoustic foam on one side that is laminated to a 1/8" thick sheet of 1 Lb./Sq.Ft. mass loaded vinyl, which is again laminated to a heavier & denser closed cell sponge-type foam (i.e. neoprene) on the opposite side.
On top of the Black Hole 5 sheet product, you will most likely need a more rigid and stable overlayment that is still very dense and has further damping properties to be used as a platform for the turntable's feet to rest on.
I use a 1" thick solid rubber mat/sheet which is available at industrial suppliers such as Grainger and McMaster-Carr.
There are also large, ~1" thick rubber mats made from recycled rubber granules for use in horse stalls and corrals. These large rubber mats can be found at most Tractor Supply Co stores or livestock feed & care suppliers and can be cut to size with a common circular or jig saw.
If you need something that's much more rigid and dense for your TT platform, you can purchase 1.25'' thick sheet of UHMW-PE in black or white, and have it cut to size, but it will be quite expensive even for this relatively small size. A "cut-off" or remnant from a custom marble or granite countertop may be an option as well.
Of course, most of these solutions are not "High-End/High-Tech" looking or aesthetically pleasing unless you use some ingenuity...
I covered my entire DIY turntable base isolator/decoupling platform with a stretchy high-grade black speaker grill cloth fabric (check at Parts-Express, Madisound, or Solen Online).
The seams in the stretchy fabric grill cloth are simply "glued" to the surface of the platform on the underside where they are hidden from view using 3M # 90 or # 77 Spray Adhesive (rubber contact cement).
Prior to covering the platform with the speaker grill cloth, I lightly painted the entire platform assembly with a deep, flat black aerosol spray paint so that none of the different material types or surfaces would show through the grill cloth.
This is a simple but, extremely effective solution that should cost less than $100.
Others have already mentioned purpose-made Sorbothane-based isolation products which are excellent absorbers/dampers as well.
This is great stuff. Thank you for posting it! I just pulled up the Blackhole5 website (blackhole-america.com/#bhmat). I am planning to also do something with the amp and phono stage so this all helps.
Yes I agree wall shelves do make a massive improvement, my 3 main turntables are all wall mounted.
I wish I'd done this years ago!
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords in fact 4 are wall mounted, I forgot about my Rega with it’s dedicated wall mount.
I have a floating laminate floor over concrete slab. I have zero vibration through the floor. I suspect that would be a different story if I used this shelf. I have gotten some feedback that cleared up when I moved my floor standing speakers farther away from my equipment rack.
If your record would skip just from walking past the rack, your floor is bouncing and probably not much due to the floating floor. If you have a basement and access to the underside of the floor, maybe you can stiffen the framing to reduce floor bounce from underneath.
We replaced the floor earlier this summer. The laminate floating floor was the issue.
Love your honesty and easy going friendly manner. Delighted you found the isolation solution. I’m sure you’ve heard of Paul Rigby (The Audiophile Man) who is a huge advocate of the isolating principle. He’s also a fan of the Soundeck pucks. I too have those. I got 6 of the mini type specifically for my quarter wave Castle Howard speakers. Unfortunately no matter where I place them underneath the base I don’t get an improvement. I’ve tried two at the front and one at the back and vice versa in direct contact with the wooden part. The sound seems to harden up which I definitely don’t like. I haven’t tried them on my turntable as I already have it isolated properly. It sits on a Mana stand on a bouncy wooden floor with a four foot basement below. The needle NEVER skips no matter what I do. Yet my second turntable on a Target stand suffers from footfall issues! The amplifiers are the venerable Crofts and they’re sitting on the same Target stand. I did try the pucks with them but heard no difference whatsoever.
Finally cleaning the stylus before play and after every side works wonders. I use my trusty VPI gel only at the start and a single run carbon fibre brush for every side. Brilliant!
Thank you, Dermot!
Yes - I've watched Paul's channel, and may have even seen Soundeck mentioned - I forget where I first heard of them. My next focus is the tube amp. I'm not sure if the pucks will help so I'm looking for an affordable platform for it.
I also use a carbon fibre on my stylus. Typically every other play.
Thanks for stopping by! Cheers 🍺🍺🍺
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords You’re welcome Rick! Good luck with the pucks underneath your tube amp. Let us know how you get on.
I forgot to mention I also have a US original vinyl of Flat Out. I absolutely love that album and especially the surprise ending in the shape of the acapella adaptation of Come Softly to Me. Genius. Also I’ve just realised that my very, very first Lp order online was, wait for it, On Your Feet or On Your Knees! I stopped following them after The Revolution by Night. So I’m intrigued with this final album. Great sleeve and title. Here’s hoping. Finally it be churlish of me not to recommend The Stalk-Forest Group’s first unreleased album. I have the double album version which I stumbled upon awhile back. It’s called The Stalk-Forest Group St. Cecilia - The Elektra Recordings. Donald Roeser is absolutely on fire. Stunning guitar solos on each and every track. For me his best guitar playing.
ruclips.net/video/T3ExWZPGGtE/видео.htmlsi=Vs5NiJw2lImYVOOT
I'll check that out. Thank you! @@cybot6
Here’s a track from that Stalk-Forest Group album I mentioned. Enjoy 😉
ruclips.net/video/T3ExWZPGGtE/видео.htmlsi=8nuz6dzq9wJjCiRQ
I had a Thrones too and I had the same experience when I mounted it to the wall. With subclass player that's the way to do it.
I will be trying to put my turntable on the wall. It's an inside wall but on the foundation as it's the garage wall. Wish me luck, and thanks for the info!
Make sure you drill your hole further than you need and counter sunk the wall plug into the wall by placing the screw and wacking it with a hammer 5mm in, do not have the plug flush with the surface! use the brown walk plugs with a 6mm No12 self tapper Flathead screw, a slit screw not Philips might be easier for you.
Screw it in by hand with a good screwdriver if you find that screw tight going in put a bit of washing up liquid on the screw thread
Great advice!
Would love to get your opinion on it after you do.
Yes I have a Auralex platform which is placed under the turntable. Which works great. Also I have seen others using a IKEA bamboo cutting board. I am not sure how effective it is.
I've heard the same thing, Dan. I wonder if they use any sort of absorption materials with it however.
Bamboo cutting boards don’t isolate . Better use in the kitchen!
Wall vibrations are real! Better isolation between the wall brackets is a must.
I've done four mods to my Dual 506 and they all made a striking difference to the sound. First was the swapping out the stock Ortofon cartridge and going with a Shure with hyperelliptical stylus. Next was the elimination of the dust cover. Thirdly, I swapped out the crappy manufacturer supplied generic rca interconnects and went with double shielded modern interconnects. Finally, I installed set of Vibrapod isolators to control vibration. These changes completely transformed the sound of my turntable for minimal cost.
The whole dust cover elimination is completely new to me. I've never spun with it closed but based on a ton of feedback today it sounds like there's a lot of advice to take it off completely when spinning. Learning new things constantly to try. Thanks Adam!
Seems vibration isolation is the most overlooked tweak. Yet it appears to be the most effective. Thanks Rick.
Hi great video, really well done, however, spikes only serve to maximise cupping to your stand/cupboard and depending on the stand/cupboard it will serve to absorb tiny vibrations from the record player. This is good but because of the mechanical coupling of the spikes it will to transmit external vibrations from the outside and into the record player. Simple physics. What you're hearing is the effective absorbtion of the stand/cupboard hence a wall bracket in your example sounds different and preferable. A decoupling solution is to isolate (not to make contact) with the stand/cupboard by using isolation tecniques such as soft rubber or complex air/magnetism specially designed for the purpose. As an example, on construction sites you can see how they install large A/C units or motors, they always use some type of syzmic isolation and deffinatley no directly coupled to the building.
Great info - thank you for that! Cheers! 🍺🍺🍺
The wall absorb the bass and it can also create a vibration. Even your dust cover can also absorb soundwave that can vibrate directly on your tt.
Right on both counts , Alden! Fortunately for us, we tested and jumped in fro nt of the turntable once on the wall - no issues. It appears as good as it will get. The dust cover was on for the demo - not when really listening. Cheers! 🍺
My WOW moment of clarity was using a clamp/record weight...the first time I used it I noticed the soundstage widening...
I got excited to play records I hadn't played for years...
I experienced something similar, Darryl with a record weight, It gets used with every record (other than 180 gram records to watch the weight on the suspension).
I can't even find this product online for sale anywhere, you're Amazon link says no longer available.
I heard that as well. It’s been a few months since I published this video. From what I understand, Pangea Audio expects to have more manufactured later this summer. I checked when I started to hear the supply was running short. Hang in there - worth the wait, seriously. I still consider it the best purchase I made for sound improvement.
I use EAT dampers on the pre amp section and silicone rings on the power valves. Spikes on the chassis base and a vibration platform.
Great. Thanks Paul!
I had a B&O RX2 that performed beautifly for several years. One day for reasons I never discovered it became so sensitive that it would pick up the voices of any one talking within a couple of feet of it. I tried to get it fixed but no one would work on it; it became landfill.
Woah - that's a crazy problem to have, Mike. You sure it wasn't haunted?
Maybe that is why no one would work on it. 😀
I isolated mine with two IKEA chopping boards, eight 1/4” ball bearings, and a set of speaker spikes on Amazon. Works amazing
Second time today I read someone mention chopping blocks, Wilson. Genius! Cheers 🍺
5:11 There is an anti gravity product on the market…well…actually a mag lev platter! eSseCi from Italy makes isolation floating boards that eliminate the influence of any external vibration. Amazing devices providing a true “black background” for turntables or any other source in your system susceptible to vibration.
Wow! That's insane, Mike. Just looked it up. Never heard of this. Amazing.
Can you get CD quality sound? Not really.
Cheers 🍺
I also use a wall shelf for my Rega P10, I replaced the standard laminated mdf shelf for a granite shelf to make the platform as sonically dead as possible.
Where did you find the granite shelf? Was it custom cut? I’m thinking of something similar for my tube amp as a base to sit on (for microphonics)
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords I bought it back in the late 80's by a company called Audio Innovation. I doubt that they're still in business though. I could probably need one under my Primaluna EVO400i too! Love the sound of valves (or tubes) and vinyl.
Interesting! I've had that same shelf for several months, I too think its great!
The sound improvement was one of those revelations I didn't expect as I was only hoping to fix a more practical issue.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecordsIts really nice when things work out that way!
I ended up building a shelf that hung from the ceiling isolating it from the walls and the floor eliminating all vibrations, definitely improve the sound twofold.👍❤️🇨🇦
That’s great! If you ever care to share a picture. Love to see it!
Perfect isolation would include the sound being introduced into the room and minimally picked up by your tonearm/cartridge. But I'm splitting hairs here. Right?
It's a never-ending battle. Like fighting against dust and bacteria.
This is why i use a magnetic suspension turntable platter and arm.
Resting your other equipment on 3 metal cones will also improve the sound.
Same same. Hardwood floors and a Thorens TD 160. I added a wall shelf (Pro-Ject) and all was right with the world.
Cheers, Shawn!
I’ve been considering one of these shelves. This video gets me just a bit closer to pullin the trigger for one. Thanks.
Wall shelf is one of the best vibration reduction methods out there
Welcome! If you do go for it please let me know how it works out.
Second that!
You had me at Bark at the Moon, since 1986 still my favorite record along with Iron Maiden S/T. I owned a Rega P3 and I have the same issue as you. I do tip toe every time I go near it. I don’t have that issue with the Fluance RT-85. I’ve seen that Pangea on the web, but it’s fucking pricey and I’m not quite there yet. Kool vid bud! Cheers JC/Miami
Cheers JC! Love that first Maiden album. I should pull that back out this week to listen to now. Great TT that Fluance you have.
I also have an RT85 w/ the Ortofon blue cart and freakin' love it. It's very well isolated.
@@wylieroth3145100% with ya, RT85 are great speakers!!!!!
@@garrapaterorulez5017 Ya know, I think it's a respectable setup for the modest price range. I run it through a Cambridge 100w amp to a pair of (now vintage) Bowers & Wilkins floorstanding speakers. Sounds just fine to my 65yr old ears.
I used to use technique 1800 turntables to DJ which they weren’t heavy enough so I put them on the foam which would isolate them. Worked great
Cheers Scott!
Everything you said is correct!!I won't bore anyone with the science but the will also be an inporvemt with a DC/EMI clipper on the Amp typically I isolate from the floor UP including each component ( P.S. the technique also work for digital) and those speakers
I've never heard of a DC/EMI clipper. What does it do?
Yes, a shelf can improve sound quality dramatically. Works almost every time if the wall is rigid. Soft walls may be as bad as a cabinet and vibrating as a resonator exited by your bass. Shelf close to a corner is more rigid, but sound pressure level is also higher, which may vibrate the turntable. Sensitivity to transfer of vibration from cabinet or wall, also depends on the turntable construction and suspension and how the vibration frequencies influence the suspended system. Eg. Stiff plints like Rega are usually more sensitive than suspended decks like Linn LP12. You do not need to by an expensive wall mount. Two large rigid angled bench brackets from a hardware store, mounted precisely so adjustable legs of the turntable stand on them, are as good as the expensive shelf, and much cheaper.
I stumbled upon this phenomenon years ago when I found the sound field from a set of speakers powered by a slave amp and playing in another room was so much cleaner than the sound field produced by the setup I had in my main room containing the turntable, a more expensive master amplifier, and more expensive speakers. And this difference was most obvious when the remote speakers were playing and not the speakers in the room housing the turntable.
It's clear to me that unless we are listening to a record through headphones, it is unrealistic to think a record is going to sound good or that the sound field will be impressive if the loud speakers are only a few feet from the turntable. Fancy dampening tricks aside, the bottom line is that there is no better way to isolate a turntable than to distance the loudspeakers from the turntable.
Agreed Craig!
For $119 I made a similar wall shelf for my PL-7 that's in my living room hooked up to my surround sound system. For my other 3 turntables here in my music room that's not feasible. I used to have two of them hanging on a suspended platform. You'd have to see one of my older videos to see what I'm talking about. I finally got rid of it and set up a 3 individual platforms of MDF board with Adjustable Isolation Feet Pads Spring Speaker Protect Stands for each turntable. This is much better to manage and I only have a set of Klipsch's desktop speakers anyway so vibration isn't much of a problem. When I record I use headphones only and when I want to crank up my speakers it's still not a problem.
Sounds like you tamed the vibration beast! I'll check one of the older videos to see the suspended platform. For my other turntable in my testing area I have it on a Pangea shelf with spiked feet - which I should do a video about soon.
I agree about isolation and I also had a huge improvement by putting my turntable on a wall shelf.
However, to imply that a wall does not vibrate is misleading.
I think the floor vibrates more but both improvements are dependent on the effectiveness of the isolation itself.
I have another turntable on a 3 shelf Pangea rack. But the turntable sits on top of another shelf isolated by Sound Addicted S Pods. And the results are every bit as good as the results from the wall shelf.
Except drywall vibrates, and if you can feel the vibration then the wall is feeling those vibrations and will transmit it to the turntable. I had to go to every hanging thing in my living room and put little rubber pads on the corners of frames because when I tried to play the music loud, not ear bleeding levels but sort of loud, those picture frames would rattle against the wall, why? Because the base was causing the drywall to vibrate. Now if my picture frames are vibrating then the Pangea shelf is also vibrating. My floor also has vinyl wood flooring, but it's sets on top of some sort of barrier, but that barrier is on top of concrete, so my floor doesn't bounce like yours, I could jump up and down all day and it won't transmit any vibration onto the turntable. If you can prove me wrong about the wall vibrating then please tell me how that shelf can work.
Seems like the same speaker/floor vibrations would travel from the floor to the wall & up the wall to the wall shelf. But if you perceive an improvement, that's all that matters.
The shelf is designed to minimize vibration though. He just made a video about it
Fortunately any vibrations that travel up the wall a very very minimal. As a test I jumped during playback where small footsteps affected it before putting the shelf up and nothing happened😎
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords I’m scared to see the price of that shelf tho lol
@@Pluralofvinylisvinyls Anti vibration shelf a good idea, but wall attachment not necessary IMO. That was my point.
Get a 7516 Cork Mat they are hand made in Brooklyn . It did wonders for my Sl -1200
Cheers Anthony!
How about upgrading to a diy water bed dampner!
Now you need to isolate the speakers from the floor since they are sending vibrations to your equipment on the cabinet. Perhaps Iso Acoustics or Townshend podium platforms. Especially effective if you have a suspended wood floor.
Glad you mentioned that! I am looking at a few options. We removed the laminate floor and I am looking at isolation platforms for the amp. It's between 70-80lbs so options are expensive.
I had a similar problem with a vintage Thorens TD-160 sitting on a VERY heavy 6-foot-long wooden console cabinet that I even bolted to the wall in order to reduce vibrations from the floor. (My stand-mounted speakers did not touch the console.) I put the turntable itself on an extremely heavy 2-inch-think wood block with its own set of acoustic isolation feet for an extra layer of "decoupling." It worked OK, but when my 65-pound German Shepherd would get exited and run around the living room, there was no keeping the stylus in the groove. (She has a tendency to bump into things. Like walls and doorways.) I eventually upgraded to a newer semi-automatic turntable with a more sophisticated isolation system (a Music Hall Classic with a similar wood plinth) and that took care of it. I love the look and feel of my Thorens (for which I bought a new custom dust cover to replace the cloudy original), but I think it may be headed for ebay...
I love my Thorens and will go out of my way to improve its sound, but those Music Hall's are amazing. Cheers!!
Nice video I agree. I have had a mana wall shelf for about 30 years but 50%…? How do you qualify this amount?
Completely subjective. It’s like putting in reader glasses and suddenly can see things so much clearer. More than 50% doesn’t feel right but less than that doesn’t do the change justice. Listening to a record as I type this and the sound improvement is so pronounced I’m shocked. I was only trying to solve the floor problem but this solved one I didn’t know I had.
The shelf works well until a passing train comes along. Not much I can do about that though. 😊
😂😂😂 Very true, Paul...damn trains.
The article was very interesting. I found that Vinyl replay and valve amplifiers benefited from correct placement with a view to reducing vibration. Valve amps in particular create their own issues with the tubes being a large source of vibration. Keep up the good work
@@paultaylor2388 That's my next area of "research and investment" -the best solution for minimizing tube vibration and microphonics.
My Thorens TD 150 TT - with Rega RB 300 arm and Goldring 1042 cartridge - is on a granite shelf, which is fixed to the Gable End wall of my home. Under the TT are four rubber Castor Cups, designed for use under furniture castors, to prevent damage to carpets. These add further isolation to the TT. A NAD Neoprene TT Mat is on top of the Cast Alloy TT Platter, kills Platter Ringing. Tapping on the granite shelf with the Stylus in the groove, causes no interference. No thump, or other extraneous noises. World Design 3 Valve Phono Pre-Amp, with World Audio Design KLPP1 Pre-Amp and WAD K5881 Mk 2 Valve Power Amp, complete the system, connected to KEF iQ30 Stand Mounted Speakers. Previously, I had a pair of Quad ESL 57 Speakers, which were brilliant for Voice and acoustic music, but lacked depth for Organ Music and Rock music. The Rolling Stone 'Paint It Black' - or John Williams version of Bach's 'Toccata' from his 'Sky 3' album - just didn't cut it through the Quads. They also took up a lot of space in my living room, due to needing to be kept away from the walls, to allow them to 'breath'; being Dipole Radiators. I tried various layouts for the system, but none of them really worked, due to location of Door; Full-width Window; Storage heater and serving hatch. The location of Mains Power Sockets, all of which were on the Gable End wall, made it impossible to plug in the Quads and the system, without yards of extension cables. I loved the Quads through the Valve system, but needs as needs must and they had to go. Some days, Life Sucks.
Completely agree, Russ. Some days it really does suck. I face something similar with a less than optimal room.
Love the description of the granite shelf and the neoprene mat. I've been thinking about changing my mat so will look into this one.
I invented an isolation system for my recording system. It's not meant to playback through speakers just monitor headphones so it's the cleanest analogue to digital transfer unit - Speakers blasting will ALWAYS be a problem if the turntable is in the same room - not much you can do about that - you can place it in the least resonating position but it will still pick up all sorts of frequencies ..again if it's in the same room. Optimal if you have a listening room.. to have your turntable in another room.
Alas - that was always my wish - to have the turntable in another room. Maybe someday...
Did you mention the rest of your setup, particularly phono stage?
Hi Dean - I did a video about my setup a couple months ago : ruclips.net/video/frjxvVIHJqA/видео.htmlsi=wtNa8VE7xPMnFe14
The phono stage I use is the Tavish Classic (tube phono stage).
I guess I have the perfect spot for my vinyl setup, a marble slab cemented straight into the foundation of my house. Even if I jumped on the marble portion, raised above the rest of the floor and isolated by a 1/4inch gap from the flooring it wouldn't vibrate a single bit. The spot used to be used for a 600 pound fireplace that has since been removed so I think I'm set even without any extra dampening outside of turntables feet.
That's probably the best setup ever!🍺