***** 1. You do realize that on this bike and on most bikes the weight of the whole bike and the rider are "unspung?" It is not a "problem." 2. Why would there be "friction slippage?" - You do realize that when you ride your bike the way that your tires makes contact with the ground is "friction?" If this was a real "problem" bikes, cars, and pretty much all other vehicles would not exit. 3. Why would the rim deform? 4. "sudden breaking stress" I am not sure what this means.... can you clarify? I think that you are trying to invalidate a new technology without a basic understanding of how it works. I do not think that any of the things you list are actual "problems." Being an engineer, I think this is a really clever idea! I'm sure that there are problems in the design, but I am also sure that there are problems with any new and innovative technology.
Audrey Jackson 1. For bikes that don't have suspension at all, you're right the whole structure is unsprung so it would not make sense for me to have been talking about frames like that. For bikes with suspension this design places a lot of weight below it which defeats the purpose of the suspension. At low speed it's not a problem, at high speed it will give a horrible ride and cause a lot of wear and tear on the components. 2. I'm talking about the friction needed between the drive wheel and the inside of the rim. Naturally, we already rely on friction between the tire and the road but we really have no choice about that. What this design introduces is even more dependence on surface friction, when there are plenty of alternatives that do a much more reliable job, eg. chain, belt, gear, hub motor. 3. Because there are no spokes to give it strength! 4. When the brake grips the rim the inertia of the bike still pushes the mass forwards, and the primary point it acts on is the center of the wheel. In a normal wheel this point is also connected to the entire rim by spokes forming a single rigid body, so the rim is unable to move relative to the hub and the overall effect is to stop the wheel turning by having fixed it at two points. Any sudden braking that overwhelms this arrangement will result in slipping either between the brake caliper and the rim, or between the tire and the road. With the design in this video though, there are five separate rigid bodies (as opposed to two in a regular bike), one of which (the rim) is not even really a rigid body since it's so precariously thin, able to move relative to each other via a large number of complex failure points. Fixing one point on the rim does not directly result in preventing the wheel from rotating, it just means that the wheel will tend to rotate around the point that was fixed. True, the other components that make up the wheel will not let the rim simply rotate around the caliper point, but the stress of sudden braking has to make its way through a needlessly complicated structure of multiple rigid bodies and bearings. I'm not trying to invalidate this just for the sake of ragging on 'new' technology. 'New' is in quotes there to follow your description, because the means to do this has been around for a couple of decades at least. The fact that this design is not all over the place by now speaks for itself. I like the novelty factor, but I'm a hardcore 'function over form' guy and I don't see what this design offers that a more orthodox (and yes, boring!) design could not accomplish (hmm... more torque perhaps?). I think it would do just fine at low speed on smooth clean surfaces, but there are plenty of smarter and simpler designs which can do the job with much less fuss, and you can retro-fit them to an existing bike with a reasonably priced DIY kit and have none of the issues I mentioned.
***** 1. I would add that it is not a "speed" issue. Unsprung weight changes suspension dynamics when speed is combined with rough terrain. It would mostly be applicable to hi-speed mountain biking where a large unsprung weight will effect how the suspension adjusts to the terrain at hi-speeds, but I still don't see a reason to think that it will give "a horrible ride" or "cause wear and tear on the components" even in a hi-speed off-road environment. I am sure that in this specific case the riding dynamics will be different, but I would have to feel it to see if it makes the ride "worse." Why do you think that would it "wear out suspension components" - these components are designed to be able to support a lot of weight and all sorts of impacts. 2. I understand the friction that you are referring to, but still this is the same mechanism that transfers energy from the tire to the road. I'm not even sure that the drive wheel is just frictionally coupled, there might be something else to it that we can not see in the video. But even if it is just friction, that would couple the drive wheel with the the bike rim with the same efficiency that the tire couples with the road. I actually think that this is a really efficient system and I don't see any reason to think that this would slip any more then the tire would slip on the road - in fact I think it would slip a lot less, because of the profile of the rubber and the greater amount of surface area that makes contact with the rim. 3. Yes, but bike rims don't just "deform" on their own. What would make it deform - are you referring to an impact deforming the rim? If you're referring to an impact - you have a good point - I could definitely see a scenario that would deform this rim more than it would deform a rim on a normal (spoked) wheel. I don't know if they have a fix for this, but I could see this being a problem. 4. I still do not understand this one. Break pads grip the sides of the rim - as they are designed to do. The rim stops spinning and the bike breaks. Where are all these "failure points" that you are referring to? I am also very skeptical when it comes to new things and I agree that the fact that this hasn't been around until now very odd, because this seems so obvious to me now that I see it! I spent a while thinking about why this theoretically wouldn't work and I have some good ideas - but the bottom line is that it does. I have not ridden one (I assume that you have not either), so I am left guessing about how it handles, but this is something that requires a hands-on review!
+Audrey Jackson 3. Hit a curb at a medium speed. A normal spoked wheel would be fine, this wheel would deform. Look at the very end of the video and you will see the wheel spinning 'un-true'. I hope they figure it out, this is awesome!
theonlySTABEL motorcycles can have 25 x or more weight on the front wheel then a bicycle fitted with this wheel. do motorcycles require significantly more force to steer the bicycles when moving? both can be controlled with no hands by simply adjusting the weight to one side of the other.
they did ride through water and snow in the video, also notice they were riding in an urban environment, not on trails or mountains, I don't think they designed it for hard offroad use.
biggest problem i see is the structural strength of the rim is so compromised by having no spoke which evenly distributes any stress it may encounter to the whole rim, and by extension to the bike frame. Very easily bent.
+Noneof Urbusiness This is definitely a problem but after looking at the wheel a couple of times, it seems possible to overcome by playing with the support rollers and their angular position and maybe adding one more to minimize the un-supported areas therefore giving the rim some support. They can also play with the structure and material of the rim. Here they seem to be using a normal rim without spokes, bad idea :-) My second highest concern is the weight. It seems that this device's weight is high. Turning at speed as well as other maneuvers maybe affected. In the end, it is not cycling anymore if you dont have to pedal LOL
not to mention that I suspect that since the rim is capture at the point of pressure and not at the center via spokes, any deformity is rectified at that point and not noticeable at all.
+Noneof Urbusiness yes and if the rim gets damaged or and if anything gets inside the wheel, there is a lot of opportunity for that, it could easily jam or derail the rim.
+videobuoy look at the history of the bike wheel and you will understand... it just became standard and at the time iti was invented it was the only way to implement the technology it was derived from the horse carriage wheel... it was not a breakthrough it was just copying a technology that was PREVIOUSLY implemented... The spokes in your wheel became a standard in manufacturing because of the ease of production not because of the efficiency of the tech. spoke wheels have the same as the QWERTY Keyboard and the DOVRAK Keyboard layout... it was a fluke of the industry.
***** I ride bikes and have done for many years and am familiar with 3 spoked wheels. (aren't they nearly always made of carbon fibre?) I would suggest that there is a huge difference between this monstrosity and a carbon spoke - Trust me this thing is not going to set the world alight in fact with all that weight in the front wheel I'd suggest the handling would be bordering dangerous.
videobuoy buoy sure ... the answer is very simple... spokes are light ... actually very light solution for that specific task... but and here we go again... hit that wheel laterally and its gone also... do you know how many hours a tech spends tensioning and alingning the wheel and spoke so they are perfectly vertical and straight????
Truing a wheel doesn't take that long if you have the right tools and you know what you're doing.... it's still the best solution out there - if it wasn't then they wouldn't use them in the Olympics or the Tour de France - I have to say I have no idea what your point is.
Well done Mike. You are a perfect case study for all dreamers out there. It looks like you ticked every box in the road to success manual. Big idea - check. Quit your job to pursue it - check. Had no clue, but went for it anyway - check. Amazing innovation - check. Good team - check. And the list goes on and on...
One thing nice with this is you can pedal the rear sprocket freely with normal load, try pedaling on the hub wheel and the motor on the pedal type of ebikes and you will feel resistance because they don't disengage from the system.
+John H Baumgaertner Same reason, I like the car alternator on top of the engine and not way down at the bottom. It can mean life or death some times! I had a car stall out, when after a big rain drove through a large water puddle on the road and flooded the alternator, which was located at the bottom of the engine.Lucky me, I got through some how, but many cars didn't.
It2more like tracks on a tank. The motor is just above the tangent of the wheel to the ground. It would probably benefit from the wheel being flexible and springy. I wonder if regenerative braking has been included.
Sideways shear over a short lever arm creates a bit of torsion in the wheel rim, nothing major though. Longitudinal acceleration or braking goes directly from tyre and rim directly into the drive. Apart from that there are few stresses on the wheel itself compared to a normal wheel with spokes. An elegant design idea.
Och I just saw the valve looks like the rollers have a deep and wide enough groove for the valve to pass without a valve cap. Handy for catch anything and hooking it into the bottom roller locking it up and or tearing the valve off
If it's gonna work, it must include some changes of design: 1. must have a clutch, so it will be friction free, when gliding. 2. must have a protective mash from both sides, otherwise... users will get their fingers and feet amputated. 3. must have at least 4 thick spokes if you insist on losing the sprung spokes.
This is an excellent concept, and as mentioned it redefines the wheel and opens up all sorts of possibilities and not all of those possibilities may cater to cyclists in general. I think one great possibility would be using two of these units, one on the back and one on the front. Use larger tire profiles, perhaps 4" fat tires with gnarly treads. Don't bother with pedals, make it completely electric with power packs in each wheel and a reserve in the frame. I bet that would be an unstoppable combination, and could be marketed for commercial and public use. I'd bet anything there would be a market for it...
+Ted Berner Oh and I read about bent rims, yada yada. Add an inner drive ring with multiple connection points to the tire rim. The drive ring would add a lot of strength and in the event the rim does take a hit, it's much less likely the drive ring would go out of round. Naysayers just lack vision.
Since you can change regular bike into electronic bike just by changing front wheel it is hell of a good idea. Good luck and do not listen to negatives. Wish you success.
Mr. Garrison developed something like this, where even the driver is actually within the wheel. It was declared illegal because of its great success and unorthodox controlling mechanism.
putting a battery inside the front wheel would increase the amount of inertia to overcome in turning, and increase unsprung mass on suspension models. theres also the fact that the front wheel is being powered, where on a bike to maintain proper handling it should be on the back wheel instead.
Notice every bike this goes on apparently has to have a shock fork, as this doesn't distribute a load like a normal wheel. Also how does the price point for this compare to one of those $35 brushless motor hubs you can get ordered from China? (I've heard many people have had decent luck with those things, given how cheap the kit was.)
I can see the wheel has a wobble. but, most bikes that use spokes have a wobble. Hard to keep them from getting loose after time. Maybe they can make the rimes a little thicker so they dont start bending. I have always loved mag wheels sense i got my first bike with them. This seems like a good idea. If they can make them charge when your peddling. This way your not stuck way out with no power. Best to just use the power when going up hill. And i like all kind of bikes. Motorcycles have always been my love, but bicycles has always been my cheap way around sense i was a kid.
Einmal gegen den Kantstein fahren und das war's dann. Das Vorderrad dürfte selbst bei kleinsten Stößen gegen Hindernisse augenblicklich verbiegen und damit unbrauchbar werden, da es nicht durch Speichen und auch sonst durch nichts versteift wird. Sind entsprechende Tests erfolgt? Ich denke nein. Da muss dringend nachgebessert werden um das Rad alltagstauglich zu machen.
As an owner of 5 ebikes, I've learned that the more modern designs with center mount motor, and low frame mount batter are better. The reason is that it centers the weight, and the bike can pivot around it, making the bike more nimble and more bike-like. Also, when ebikes move the motor out of the wheel, it improves what is called 'unsprung weight' in bikes with shocks. This makes the shock absorption more effective. Putting all the weight of the battery and motor inside the wheel looks cool, but it has a negative effect on bicycle handling and feel. Especially the front wheel. Lastly, what holds a bicycle up on two wheels? The answer is angular momentum. The weight of the tire and wheel spinning creates gyroscopic forces that make a bicycle stable. It looks to me like this bike will still have enough spinning weight to create the gyro of the front tire, but it will have a different feel. No biggie on that point. Physics matter. Bikes are simple, joyous devices, but the physics at play are more complicated than most people know.
+Derek Kerton Also, the ring of the wheel is weaker because of the lack of spokes holding it round. Also, bumps will put difficult forces on the three mounting points. Also, braking forces will put complicated torques on the wheel, and we know spokes can handle those forces, but we'd need to see how well this design handles strong braking. Also, there are three points of friction in this wheel, compared to just one with a hub and spoke wheel.
i think it is better to keep the original wheel design, but build the motor into the front wheel hub. That would still be something new, but it won't have the usual problems you will have from having a spokeless wheel. Spokes are there for a reason.
I could be wrong but it looks to me that the front wheel is not hooked to any gears so it is a rear wheel drive bike, period, no front brake since it would be useless. The front wheel moves because the ground friction plus the little flywheels inside the wheel to eliminate drag and keep it rolling. So you can put anything you want inside the front wheel because it is stationery, so they use it to hold the battery pack and any ideas that seem worthwhile. Did I get this right? If so, I think you could possibly lose all front wheel traction on slippery surfaces because only the road surface moves the wheel. I think it would be easier to skid or lose control of direction in a skid with this bike. As far as my understanding, I would think it is costly and not worth the difference. What is the real benefit of having a battery inside the wheel, I don't know, and looks front heavy.
How do the rollers handle sand, gravel or and sort of debris getting between the rollers and the rim? How does everyday dirt wear the roller/rim system?
I should think all that weight in the front wheel makes steering rather heavy[?] I know it happens when there are front panniers fitted. Also there seem to be two extra bearings to wear and create resistance to the roll... although I don't know how significantly they would slow it down.... and I would worry about so much of the rim being completely unsupported. Suppose you drop into a hole and bend it? And what about all that unsprung weight contributing to the bending moment??
What if it goes out of true ? Like it is in the last image of the video. There's no spokes you can adjust to true it. How do you fix it without replacing the wheel or anything costly ???
I'm wondering how this design is better than a hub motor. I realize you've cleared all that space in the center of the wheel, but the larger "bearing surface" is less efficient and introduces more points of friction, (and potential failure) via the "carrier" bearings. I'm not saying this is a dead end. It's just a very difficult road.
Spokes aid in keeping a wheel (rim) perfectly round. What assures that this wheel stays round and properly aligned with the brake, a beefier rim? And speaking of brakes, the ever more popular disk brakes will probably find no application here. On the other hand, if the electromotor helps slow down the bike, a traditional brake is all that's needed. All in all, I like the concept ; -)
It's already showing signs of out-of-true. Why only on the front ? The fork should be the vertical support for the upper idler wheel. Maybe 4 inner wheels would help keep things true. That thing has got to be heavy. I guess weight is not much issue if the thing is powered
Great Idea. What does Front Wheel Drive feel like in a bike?! And when you are peddling as well as powering the front wheel, what does two-wheel drive give you? I also imagine that low-slung mass has its advantages too. (I'm sorry if you already had these questions and answered them.)
Looks like it may be better on a 29 or 32 inch rim with wide tires. The rim will have to be beefed up a lot more. That thin rim will last only a week at most before it is all warped out of shape from road hazzards because all the spokes are gone.
that is friction type which means there will be some slippage.....what made you think your design is better than the very basic direct drive hub motor?
It's cool, but why reinvent the wheel? We already have hub motors that work just fine. Besides, this design introduces many problems, discussed above. The main one I can think of is that it's impossible to put a brake on this wheel unless the device itself acts as a brake. As it turns out, a front brake is kind of important on a bike...
I see no advantage of this over any other possible drive system. I'll grant that the thing works, but it's so much easier to not redesign the front of the bike and just drive the rear wheel with a chain. This thing doesn't even outperform hub motors.
advantage- it's on the front wheel. what is harder to change, a rear flat or a front flat? rear of course, because of the chain. They reinvented the wheel to fit in the standard 100mm front axle of almost any bike. say someone typically rides their bike with a regular front wheel but wants to take it easy on the weekend, just undo the front wheel, put this one in place, clamp the control to the handlebar and off you go. or say they ride it everyday, when it needs recharging you pull off the front wheel and you don't have to mess with the rest of the bike.
But... is it more efficient. Im thinking you just tripled the moving parts in the front axle. good idea if you could make up for those inefficiencies with using a super accurate ceramic coated wheel rim on the inside. I go to Mit for mech engineering/ composites. If you have any questions, message me i might have a few suggestions. Great work, great job
hows it run in heavy rain ? do the drive wheels slip? i'm not convinced about just dipping it in water on a hot day as proof they wont slip on a heavy rain day in say londen i ask because something like this been done in europe in the 40's 50's on mopeds and it failed because of rain and water in general caused the drive wheels to slip
+James Seedorf (seedorfj) Motors have been mounted inside bicycle wheels for over 100 years. I saw one made in the 1920s by the Johnson motor company (the one that made outboard motors for boats). The innovation here is the battery technology although for some reason this company is choosing to tout this as a new configuration. GeoOrbital needs a history lesson. Motorized wheels failed miserably in the early 20th century because cheap cars horribly devastated the motorcycle market and of what was left of the 2 wheeled market, you could buy a small displacement motorcycle for nearly as much as what you paid to buy a motor wheel to bolt in a bike because the motor wheels were a low volume item.
+Patrick Cauley what i love of this design is that it frees the empty space inside the wheel for more options LED lights a secondary battery pack etc etc this design rocks.
+Imam Mutaqin You can get a DIY battery controller and front hub motor kit for like 50-90 euro's of some sketchy Chinese sites. You might have to wait 3 months but yeah. That's the cheapo solution some people try out and if they're serious about their e-bikes they often later go to rear hub or mid-engine designs. But those are a little more complex and expensive, also a lot less sketchy in the rain though. Only a small portion of the weight is on the front so it gets really weird when it's wet.
the lack of spokes weakens the wheel. easily deforms.. unless significantly strengthened compared to normal bicycle wheels. Would take a lot of matherial or become very expensive. Coming down from a wheelie doesnt have to be hard on the wheel at all. Depends on the rider. So is isnt much of a benchmark for toughness.
No good reason to put the battery inside the wheel. It will likely make steering "funky". Keep it as lightweight as reasonably possible and move the battery pack somewhere else, easier to get at, charge, service, and replace.
This is their first video from a couple years ago with standard bike rims. Now have to go to their website and see the latest video, they have new stronger rims and no flat tires.
I am guessing that since the rim is a standard wheel size they chose to use a standard tire on that prototype even though the shipped versions of the wheel come with solid tires.
I got no quibles with the technical quirks, but this isn't exactly anything brand new, the Copenhage wheel has a simialr concept. But if you are going to get an electric bicycle, take it from somebody who already has two, get the newest in centerdrive motors, and battery in downtube. That is the best electric bike design.
why would you challenge yourself to fit everything in the wheel's center? the only reason i see for this is that you want to make a simple kit that everyone can replace with his bike's front wheel and go.
this sort of thing has been around for a while. putting an "empty" rear wheel on a motorcycle even. why put smaller pulleys inside? line it with smaller bearings and it will look completely open like what has already been done. does no one actually come up with new stuff anymore. everything just seems like different combinations of the same things.
i like how this guy got an idea and made it a company this guy has balls to give up his job and invente something with no knowlega about it and make it work
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1. unsprung weight
2. friction slippage
3. rim deformation
4. sudden braking stress
... so many problems
*****
1. You do realize that on this bike and on most bikes the weight of the whole bike and the rider are "unspung?" It is not a "problem."
2. Why would there be "friction slippage?" - You do realize that when you ride your bike the way that your tires makes contact with the ground is "friction?" If this was a real "problem" bikes, cars, and pretty much all other vehicles would not exit.
3. Why would the rim deform?
4. "sudden breaking stress" I am not sure what this means.... can you clarify?
I think that you are trying to invalidate a new technology without a basic understanding of how it works. I do not think that any of the things you list are actual "problems."
Being an engineer, I think this is a really clever idea! I'm sure that there are problems in the design, but I am also sure that there are problems with any new and innovative technology.
Audrey Jackson
1. For bikes that don't have suspension at all, you're right the whole structure is unsprung so it would not make sense for me to have been talking about frames like that. For bikes with suspension this design places a lot of weight below it which defeats the purpose of the suspension. At low speed it's not a problem, at high speed it will give a horrible ride and cause a lot of wear and tear on the components.
2. I'm talking about the friction needed between the drive wheel and the inside of the rim. Naturally, we already rely on friction between the tire and the road but we really have no choice about that. What this design introduces is even more dependence on surface friction, when there are plenty of alternatives that do a much more reliable job, eg. chain, belt, gear, hub motor.
3. Because there are no spokes to give it strength!
4. When the brake grips the rim the inertia of the bike still pushes the mass forwards, and the primary point it acts on is the center of the wheel. In a normal wheel this point is also connected to the entire rim by spokes forming a single rigid body, so the rim is unable to move relative to the hub and the overall effect is to stop the wheel turning by having fixed it at two points. Any sudden braking that overwhelms this arrangement will result in slipping either between the brake caliper and the rim, or between the tire and the road. With the design in this video though, there are five separate rigid bodies (as opposed to two in a regular bike), one of which (the rim) is not even really a rigid body since it's so precariously thin, able to move relative to each other via a large number of complex failure points. Fixing one point on the rim does not directly result in preventing the wheel from rotating, it just means that the wheel will tend to rotate around the point that was fixed. True, the other components that make up the wheel will not let the rim simply rotate around the caliper point, but the stress of sudden braking has to make its way through a needlessly complicated structure of multiple rigid bodies and bearings.
I'm not trying to invalidate this just for the sake of ragging on 'new' technology. 'New' is in quotes there to follow your description, because the means to do this has been around for a couple of decades at least. The fact that this design is not all over the place by now speaks for itself. I like the novelty factor, but I'm a hardcore 'function over form' guy and I don't see what this design offers that a more orthodox (and yes, boring!) design could not accomplish (hmm... more torque perhaps?). I think it would do just fine at low speed on smooth clean surfaces, but there are plenty of smarter and simpler designs which can do the job with much less fuss, and you can retro-fit them to an existing bike with a reasonably priced DIY kit and have none of the issues I mentioned.
*****
1. I would add that it is not a "speed" issue. Unsprung weight changes suspension dynamics when speed is combined with rough terrain. It would mostly be applicable to hi-speed mountain biking where a large unsprung weight will effect how the suspension adjusts to the terrain at hi-speeds, but I still don't see a reason to think that it will give "a horrible ride" or "cause wear and tear on the components" even in a hi-speed off-road environment. I am sure that in this specific case the riding dynamics will be different, but I would have to feel it to see if it makes the ride "worse." Why do you think that would it "wear out suspension components" - these components are designed to be able to support a lot of weight and all sorts of impacts.
2. I understand the friction that you are referring to, but still this is the same mechanism that transfers energy from the tire to the road. I'm not even sure that the drive wheel is just frictionally coupled, there might be something else to it that we can not see in the video. But even if it is just friction, that would couple the drive wheel with the the bike rim with the same efficiency that the tire couples with the road. I actually think that this is a really efficient system and I don't see any reason to think that this would slip any more then the tire would slip on the road - in fact I think it would slip a lot less, because of the profile of the rubber and the greater amount of surface area that makes contact with the rim.
3. Yes, but bike rims don't just "deform" on their own. What would make it deform - are you referring to an impact deforming the rim? If you're referring to an impact - you have a good point - I could definitely see a scenario that would deform this rim more than it would deform a rim on a normal (spoked) wheel. I don't know if they have a fix for this, but I could see this being a problem.
4. I still do not understand this one. Break pads grip the sides of the rim - as they are designed to do. The rim stops spinning and the bike breaks. Where are all these "failure points" that you are referring to?
I am also very skeptical when it comes to new things and I agree that the fact that this hasn't been around until now very odd, because this seems so obvious to me now that I see it!
I spent a while thinking about why this theoretically wouldn't work and I have some good ideas - but the bottom line is that it does. I have not ridden one (I assume that you have not either), so I am left guessing about how it handles, but this is something that requires a hands-on review!
+Audrey Jackson
3. Hit a curb at a medium speed. A normal spoked wheel would be fine, this wheel would deform. Look at the very end of the video and you will see the wheel spinning 'un-true'. I hope they figure it out, this is awesome!
+Darren Clark thats a good point i didnt think about that. im hopping curbs all the time
You've got a ton of very descent and reasonably priced powered bikes to compete against, hope you left your job on good terms.
+Dimitri Boyarski yeah the market is kind of flooded but this thing looks pretty impressive.
agreed
+American Writer all weight is removed from the frame for 1.
+tin fingers so now you have the weight in the frontwheel, which mackes steering harder.
theonlySTABEL motorcycles can have 25 x or more weight on the front wheel then a bicycle fitted with this wheel. do motorcycles require significantly more force to steer the bicycles when moving? both can be controlled with no hands by simply adjusting the weight to one side of the other.
What happens if you drive though the mud or rocks? Looks like it could damage it or derail it.
they did ride through water and snow in the video, also notice they were riding in an urban environment, not on trails or mountains, I don't think they designed it for hard offroad use.
How is it i just hear about this, and jerry's here.......hahahahahaa
biggest problem i see is the structural strength of the rim is so compromised by having no spoke which evenly distributes any stress it may encounter to the whole rim, and by extension to the bike frame. Very easily bent.
+Noneof Urbusiness You're right. Just look at the rim wobbling at the end of the video. There's no way to true the rim.
+Noneof Urbusiness This is definitely a problem but after looking at the wheel a couple of times, it seems possible to overcome by playing with the support rollers and their angular position and maybe adding one more to minimize the un-supported areas therefore giving the rim some support. They can also play with the structure and material of the rim. Here they seem to be using a normal rim without spokes, bad idea :-) My second highest concern is the weight. It seems that this device's weight is high. Turning at speed as well as other maneuvers maybe affected. In the end, it is not cycling anymore if you dont have to pedal LOL
+Rich Rivet day xxv vsvfxcx
not to mention that I suspect that since the rim is capture at the point of pressure and not at the center via spokes, any deformity is rectified at that point and not noticeable at all.
+Noneof Urbusiness yes and if the rim gets damaged or and if anything gets inside the wheel, there is a lot of opportunity for that, it could easily jam or derail the rim.
One of the most innovative invention IV seen in a long time.
I like how the inventor describes himself as amazing...
Congrats for coming up with the idea and then actually bringing it to life.
I wonder if this guy knows why we have spokes in wheels? I think when he finds out he may regret leaving his job...
+videobuoy look at the history of the bike wheel and you will understand... it just became standard and at the time iti was invented it was the only way to implement the technology it was derived from the horse carriage wheel... it was not a breakthrough it was just copying a technology that was PREVIOUSLY implemented...
The spokes in your wheel became a standard in manufacturing because of the ease of production not because of the efficiency of the tech. spoke wheels have the same as the QWERTY Keyboard and the DOVRAK Keyboard layout... it was a fluke of the industry.
***** I ride bikes and have done for many years and am familiar with 3 spoked wheels. (aren't they nearly always made of carbon fibre?) I would suggest that there is a huge difference between this monstrosity and a carbon spoke - Trust me this thing is not going to set the world alight in fact with all that weight in the front wheel I'd suggest the handling would be bordering dangerous.
Frank Nazario so Frank perhaps you can tell me why Olympic road bikes and Tour de France bikes still use SPOKES?
videobuoy buoy sure ... the answer is very simple... spokes are light ... actually very light solution for that specific task... but and here we go again... hit that wheel laterally and its gone also... do you know how many hours a tech spends tensioning and alingning the wheel and spoke so they are perfectly vertical and straight????
Truing a wheel doesn't take that long if you have the right tools and you know what you're doing.... it's still the best solution out there - if it wasn't then they wouldn't use them in the Olympics or the Tour de France - I have to say I have no idea what your point is.
Well done Mike. You are a perfect case study for all dreamers out there. It looks like you ticked every box in the road to success manual. Big idea - check. Quit your job to pursue it - check. Had no clue, but went for it anyway - check. Amazing innovation - check. Good team - check. And the list goes on and on...
This is what I call proactive - I love how you came with the idea for this invention
his attitude and go-for-it-ness is very inspiring. quit his job? ballsy.
motivates me to hunker down and invent cuz i have ideas and i'm getting old!
Great idea. Idea, int he 2.0 id suggest a sleeker, stylish, bronze, gun metal color?
Innovation happens in increments. Excellent work at geoOrbital. They will benefit massively when superconductor technology shrinks further
One thing nice with this is you can pedal the rear sprocket freely with normal load, try pedaling on the hub wheel and the motor on the pedal type of ebikes and you will feel resistance because they don't disengage from the system.
Dip it in the mud and dirt, see if still works?
I bet those rollers would freeze up no time!
+John H Baumgaertner Same reason, I like the car alternator on top of the engine and not way down at the bottom. It can mean life or death some times! I had a car stall out, when after a big rain drove through a large water puddle on the road and flooded the alternator, which was located at the bottom of the engine.Lucky me, I got through some how, but many cars didn't.
"Reinvented the wheel"??? You'll find the hubless wheel has been around for 25 years.
really impressive this guy could do this with no engineering background
4:16 look how it's running untrue....
this guy reinvented the wheel for sure.
It2more like tracks on a tank. The motor is just above the tangent of the wheel to the ground. It would probably benefit from the wheel being flexible and springy. I wonder if regenerative braking has been included.
Sideways shear over a short lever arm creates a bit of torsion in the wheel rim, nothing major though. Longitudinal acceleration or braking goes directly from tyre and rim directly into the drive. Apart from that there are few stresses on the wheel itself compared to a normal wheel with spokes. An elegant design idea.
Och I just saw the valve looks like the rollers have a deep and wide enough groove for the valve to pass without a valve cap. Handy for catch anything and hooking it into the bottom roller locking it up and or tearing the valve off
Needs a reaction arm like a coaster brake. I saw the whole assembly spin when the one guy came down from his wheely
If it's gonna work, it must include some changes of design:
1. must have a clutch, so it will be friction free, when gliding.
2. must have a protective mash from both sides, otherwise... users will get their fingers and feet amputated.
3. must have at least 4 thick spokes if you insist on losing the sprung spokes.
This is an excellent concept, and as mentioned it redefines the wheel and opens up all sorts of possibilities and not all of those possibilities may cater to cyclists in general.
I think one great possibility would be using two of these units, one on the back and one on the front. Use larger tire profiles, perhaps 4" fat tires with gnarly treads. Don't bother with pedals, make it completely electric with power packs in each wheel and a reserve in the frame.
I bet that would be an unstoppable combination, and could be marketed for commercial and public use. I'd bet anything there would be a market for it...
+Ted Berner Oh and I read about bent rims, yada yada. Add an inner drive ring with multiple connection points to the tire rim. The drive ring would add a lot of strength and in the event the rim does take a hit, it's much less likely the drive ring would go out of round.
Naysayers just lack vision.
Since you can change regular bike into electronic bike just by changing front wheel it is hell of a good idea. Good luck and do not listen to negatives. Wish you success.
Its strange putting the main power output on the front wheel, if that front wheel locks up your screwed...
Coolness factor of this wheel? Very high. Friction and cost? Also high. This is a step backwards from a normal wheel with a hub.
What advantage would it have compared to conventional electric bicycle other than eyes on you?
Mr. Garrison developed something like this, where even the driver is actually within the wheel. It was declared illegal because of its great success and unorthodox controlling mechanism.
putting a battery inside the front wheel would increase the amount of inertia to overcome in turning, and increase unsprung mass on suspension models.
theres also the fact that the front wheel is being powered, where on a bike to maintain proper handling it should be on the back wheel instead.
Notice every bike this goes on apparently has to have a shock fork, as this doesn't distribute a load like a normal wheel. Also how does the price point for this compare to one of those $35 brushless motor hubs you can get ordered from China? (I've heard many people have had decent luck with those things, given how cheap the kit was.)
haven't any of you seen ebikes? weight is where it should be and looks like an actual bike
I can see the wheel has a wobble. but, most bikes that use spokes have a wobble. Hard to keep them from getting loose after time. Maybe they can make the rimes a little thicker so they dont start bending. I have always loved mag wheels sense i got my first bike with them. This seems like a good idea. If they can make them charge when your peddling. This way your not stuck way out with no power. Best to just use the power when going up hill. And i like all kind of bikes. Motorcycles have always been my love, but bicycles has always been my cheap way around sense i was a kid.
I saw that bent rim, and emergency avoidance looks like fun with all that weight
Einmal gegen den Kantstein fahren und das war's dann. Das Vorderrad dürfte selbst bei kleinsten Stößen gegen Hindernisse augenblicklich verbiegen und damit unbrauchbar werden, da es nicht durch Speichen und auch sonst durch nichts versteift wird. Sind entsprechende Tests erfolgt? Ich denke nein. Da muss dringend nachgebessert werden um das Rad alltagstauglich zu machen.
How are you addressing torque steer/rotational mass in turn? How does it work in the back? Really cool idea!
that's amazing thing I have seen regarding electric bikes
Very good idea. Maximize the use of potential energy of rotating wheel. But I think it's still need more improvement.
Great concept. I would turn the drive motor to the top, however to keep it out of the water.
You can put a flashing led array in there and when its spinning, it will display a message.
As an owner of 5 ebikes, I've learned that the more modern designs with center mount motor, and low frame mount batter are better. The reason is that it centers the weight, and the bike can pivot around it, making the bike more nimble and more bike-like.
Also, when ebikes move the motor out of the wheel, it improves what is called 'unsprung weight' in bikes with shocks. This makes the shock absorption more effective. Putting all the weight of the battery and motor inside the wheel looks cool, but it has a negative effect on bicycle handling and feel. Especially the front wheel.
Lastly, what holds a bicycle up on two wheels? The answer is angular momentum. The weight of the tire and wheel spinning creates gyroscopic forces that make a bicycle stable. It looks to me like this bike will still have enough spinning weight to create the gyro of the front tire, but it will have a different feel. No biggie on that point.
Physics matter. Bikes are simple, joyous devices, but the physics at play are more complicated than most people know.
+Derek Kerton Also, the ring of the wheel is weaker because of the lack of spokes holding it round.
Also, bumps will put difficult forces on the three mounting points.
Also, braking forces will put complicated torques on the wheel, and we know spokes can handle those forces, but we'd need to see how well this design handles strong braking.
Also, there are three points of friction in this wheel, compared to just one with a hub and spoke wheel.
What about wear between the drive roller and rim? I bet you'd probably have to replace the rubber rollers often.
i think it is better to keep the original wheel design, but build the motor into the front wheel hub. That would still be something new, but it won't have the usual problems you will have from having a spokeless wheel. Spokes are there for a reason.
soooo.... extra friction due to 3 support points?
I learned the new prototypes have Never Flat tires, so no air valve needed. No holes in new rims too.
putting all that weight into the wheel that steers?
You started with a flawed design.
I could be wrong but it looks to me that the front wheel is not hooked to any gears so it is a rear wheel drive bike, period, no front brake since it would be useless. The front wheel moves because the ground friction plus the little flywheels inside the wheel to eliminate drag and keep it rolling. So you can put anything you want inside the front wheel because it is stationery, so they use it to hold the battery pack and any ideas that seem worthwhile.
Did I get this right? If so, I think you could possibly lose all front wheel traction on slippery surfaces because only the road surface moves the wheel. I think it would be easier to skid or lose control of direction in a skid with this bike. As far as my understanding, I would think it is costly and not worth the difference. What is the real benefit of having a battery inside the wheel, I don't know, and looks front heavy.
You are incorrect. They had a kick starter promo for preorders. Now selling at geoo.com.
How do the rollers handle sand, gravel or and sort of debris getting between the rollers and the rim? How does everyday dirt wear the roller/rim system?
What if you were to add a Kinetic Energy Recovery System to the two idle wheels in this system?
Would that not extend your distances?
I should think all that weight in the front wheel makes steering rather heavy[?] I know it happens when there are front panniers fitted. Also there seem to be two extra bearings to wear and create resistance to the roll... although I don't know how significantly they would slow it down.... and I would worry about so much of the rim being completely unsupported. Suppose you drop into a hole and bend it? And what about all that unsprung weight contributing to the bending moment??
What if it goes out of true ? Like it is in the last image of the video. There's no spokes you can adjust to true it. How do you fix it without replacing the wheel or anything costly ???
I'm wondering how this design is better than a hub motor. I realize you've cleared all that space in the center of the wheel, but the larger "bearing surface" is less efficient and introduces more points of friction, (and potential failure) via the "carrier" bearings.
I'm not saying this is a dead end. It's just a very difficult road.
Great....Marvellous...Superb....Just wanted to know if you have tested it on uneven surfaces?...Appreciate if you could reply...
Spokes aid in keeping a wheel (rim) perfectly round. What assures that this wheel stays round and properly aligned with the brake, a beefier rim? And speaking of brakes, the ever more popular disk brakes will probably find no application here. On the other hand, if the electromotor helps slow down the bike, a traditional brake is all that's needed. All in all, I like the concept ; -)
It's already showing signs of out-of-true. Why only on the front ? The fork should be the vertical support for the upper idler wheel. Maybe 4 inner wheels would help keep things true. That thing has got to be heavy. I guess weight is not much issue if the thing is powered
Great Idea. What does Front Wheel Drive feel like in a bike?! And when you are peddling as well as powering the front wheel, what does two-wheel drive give you? I also imagine that low-slung mass has its advantages too. (I'm sorry if you already had these questions and answered them.)
What if i told you that it still works like a wheel and it's still a wheel?
+Cristi Neagu What if i told you that it still works like a wheel and it's still a wheel?
Looks like it may be better on a 29 or 32 inch rim with wide tires. The rim will have to be beefed up a lot more. That thin rim will last only a week at most before it is all warped out of shape from road hazzards because all the spokes are gone.
What if you had some kind of alternator that allowed the rider to charge the battery through pedaling?
that is friction type which means there will be some slippage.....what made you think your design is better than the very basic direct drive hub motor?
What happens when gravel, a stick, or other debris jams between a roller and wheel rim?
I need a pair for my chair.
It seems as if the rim would be very weak. What happens if it bents bent?
When I was in high school learning physics about planetary gear, I had almost the same idea to design something like this product
have you done anything with the GENESIS cruiser? It has 32 INCH wheels! MOE BATTERY MAN!!
Needs A continuous ring bearing so the rim is supported from all sides
This is excellent.
It's cool, but why reinvent the wheel? We already have hub motors that work just fine. Besides, this design introduces many problems, discussed above. The main one I can think of is that it's impossible to put a brake on this wheel unless the device itself acts as a brake. As it turns out, a front brake is kind of important on a bike...
off road 2wd motorcycles...having 10-15% front wheel drive could be game changing for traction and control.
ok but what about this mitchellin wheel thing?
I see no advantage of this over any other possible drive system. I'll grant that the thing works, but it's so much easier to not redesign the front of the bike and just drive the rear wheel with a chain. This thing doesn't even outperform hub motors.
advantage- it's on the front wheel. what is harder to change, a rear flat or a front flat? rear of course, because of the chain. They reinvented the wheel to fit in the standard 100mm front axle of almost any bike.
say someone typically rides their bike with a regular front wheel but wants to take it easy on the weekend, just undo the front wheel, put this one in place, clamp the control to the handlebar and off you go.
or say they ride it everyday, when it needs recharging you pull off the front wheel and you don't have to mess with the rest of the bike.
what would happen if you took it down a DH track?
front of it looks very heavy .inner city handlebar makes you tired after while seems.
yeah , it is something new but what advantages about this design ?? .. then no suspention ....
But... is it more efficient. Im thinking you just tripled the moving parts in the front axle.
good idea if you could make up for those inefficiencies with using a super accurate ceramic coated wheel rim on the inside.
I go to Mit for mech engineering/ composites. If you have any questions, message me i might have a few suggestions.
Great work, great job
hows it run in heavy rain ? do the drive wheels slip? i'm not convinced about just dipping it in water on a hot day as proof they wont slip on a heavy rain day in say londen
i ask because something like this been done in europe in the 40's 50's on mopeds and it failed because of rain and water in general caused the drive wheels to slip
Can it be used as pedal assist? Or is it pedal with it off and no pedal when on? Mahalo
too bad there's still no market for this kind of stuff
A hub big enough to mount a motor, battery, and controller could be an alternative. just my 2 cents
+James Seedorf (seedorfj) Motors have been mounted inside bicycle wheels for over 100 years. I saw one made in the 1920s by the Johnson motor company (the one that made outboard motors for boats). The innovation here is the battery technology although for some reason this company is choosing to tout this as a new configuration. GeoOrbital needs a history lesson. Motorized wheels failed miserably in the early 20th century because cheap cars horribly devastated the motorcycle market and of what was left of the 2 wheeled market, you could buy a small displacement motorcycle for nearly as much as what you paid to buy a motor wheel to bolt in a bike because the motor wheels were a low volume item.
+Patrick Cauley what i love of this design is that it frees the empty space inside the wheel for more options LED lights a secondary battery pack etc etc this design rocks.
+Imam Mutaqin You can get a DIY battery controller and front hub motor kit for like 50-90 euro's of some sketchy Chinese sites. You might have to wait 3 months but yeah. That's the cheapo solution some people try out and if they're serious about their e-bikes they often later go to rear hub or mid-engine designs. But those are a little more complex and expensive, also a lot less sketchy in the rain though. Only a small portion of the weight is on the front so it gets really weird when it's wet.
the lack of spokes weakens the wheel. easily deforms.. unless significantly strengthened compared to normal bicycle wheels. Would take a lot of matherial or become very expensive. Coming down from a wheelie doesnt have to be hard on the wheel at all. Depends on the rider. So is isnt much of a benchmark for toughness.
4:17 looks like the rim needs some truing. But how the heck do you do that if there are no spokes?
very nice. ill buy one for sure
No good reason to put the battery inside the wheel. It will likely make steering "funky". Keep it as lightweight as reasonably possible and move the battery pack somewhere else, easier to get at, charge, service, and replace.
does clark kent work there?
why is there a shrader valve on the tire, I thought it was suppose to use a solid tire.
This is their first video from a couple years ago with standard bike rims. Now have to go to their website and see the latest video, they have new stronger rims and no flat tires.
Website....www.geoo.com
I am guessing that since the rim is a standard wheel size they chose to use a standard tire on that prototype even though the shipped versions of the wheel come with solid tires.
Would be nice if this used break power to recharge, also ultra caps would be awesome
How does the rim not get all bent out of shape?
u got to put two motos on it 1 in the front and 1 in the back that will make it more cool an also faster too.
I got no quibles with the technical quirks, but this isn't exactly anything brand new, the Copenhage wheel has a simialr concept. But if you are going to get an electric bicycle, take it from somebody who already has two, get the newest in centerdrive motors, and battery in downtube. That is the best electric bike design.
why would you challenge yourself to fit everything in the wheel's center? the only reason i see for this is that you want to make a simple kit that everyone can replace with his bike's front wheel and go.
What's the advantage again ?
How often do you change the tire? Or buy the whole thing again? @geoorbital
Not sure what to make of the lack of footage of people actually pedaling the bike.
One question I had in mind the whole time - 'What's the advantage'?
this sort of thing has been around for a while. putting an "empty" rear wheel on a motorcycle even. why put smaller pulleys inside? line it with smaller bearings and it will look completely open like what has already been done. does no one actually come up with new stuff anymore. everything just seems like different combinations of the same things.
Right near the end when the tech is working on the wheel as it is spinning, you can see how much the rim has deformed.
I LOVE Brilliance, so I LOVED this ! ! !
i like how this guy got an idea and made it a company this guy has balls to give up his job and invente something with no knowlega about it and make it work
cool invention. Don't be afraid to follow your dreams