Just to let you know, at 29:07 i discovered a mistake. Other than Charming Presence, which is very generic and just requires the Dragon to be able to see the PC, the other reactions requires a very specific trigger. The trigger for rending retaliation is that it 'takes' damage, and i didn't see anything that did damage to the dragon during the Wizard's turn. Remember that it is no longer a legendary action that can be used anytime between PC turns. Most reactions require a very specific trigger.
You are correct. In 2014 D&D the legendary reactions were all "at the end of turn". I didn't notice this change until I was already in the second fight, and I didn't really want to re-record the entire first fight. I figure that since I messed it up in both fights, at least it is an equal comparison.
I know the video was published before the DMG came out, but these results make sense given the encounter building rules. A single Ancient Green Dragon is under the “Medium” encounter threshold in the new CR calculations. You’d need two of them to challenge a level 20 party of 4, based on the new Encounter Building numbers.
Completely right. That is why I thought it was dumb for WOTC to not release any monsters or encounter calculations in the playtest. We were giving feedback, but we only had half the equation. I wish I had also done one run with 2 dragons, except I think there is no way the party survives that. 2 breath weapons for an average damage of 154, coupled with legendary reactions for claw attacks will drop most of the part pretty quick. Or, 6 charming presences, 2 per turn, would take down the party pretty quick as well.
I think that’s a good thing though? The way they describe a medium encounter in the DMG is that “weaker characters might get taken out of the fight, and there’s a slim chance one or more characters might die.” Based on your example, I’d say that’s true as the Wizard came close to dropping and with a few more missed saving throws the party may have lost a character. A Hard encounter is described as potentially lethal for characters and “to survive, the characters will need smart tactics, quick thinking, and maybe even a little luck.” Two dragons fits that description to me. It should be one where the party probably lose without planning or spells that counter enemies (like the heroes feast you mentioned at the start).
The Barbarian deals an average of ~108.25 damage per turn to the Dragon. That is, the solo barbarian needs to survive 4 turns Dragon (2014) makes 131.6 per turn So barbarian can barely survive 3 turns. And if he has initiative above he would solo win. 2 barbarian vs 2 dragons is easy win in 3 turns btw. Cause axe double attack
I wonder if the barbarian could still do 108 damage per round while at disadvantage in a cloud kill. They could attack recklessly to counter, but that still only makes the attacks straight up. Also, unless they are a berserker barbarian, they will be making 2 saves per turn against being charmed. In the 2v2 battle, even if they are berserkers and win initiative, after the first barbarian goes, BOTH dragons can attempt to charm the second barbarian. If he fails that, then it is a 2v1 battle in favor of the dragons. At that point it is all over.
@@hackthedungeon Disadvantage is a BIG factor, this calculation was more for me, cause I had plenty of time and never played or simulated stuff upper 5 lvl)
avoiding being charmed is HUGE. I totally missed that. Rolling up 4 different 20th level characters leads to missing a lot. I totally should have used that.
I know it would boring for the players. But an Ancient Dragon is smart enough to use a strategy, rather than simply brawling. Wouldn't he use his flight speed to simply do strafing runs on the party? Truly smart would be to circle until his Breath Weapon recharges, and only enter the threat range of the party to use the breath weapon. Even just a couple of these would be devastating, regardless of how fresh the party is at the start. Add in the occasional spell on a non-recharge turn, and the party is pretty fukt.
That might have been a better strategy, I was thinking that if I could lock down the casters so they couldn't dispel the charms, then the martials would be a walk in the park.
@@hackthedungeon I would add more to this. While charming the rogue and fighter, it should go after the cleric and the wizard, using his reaction to use corrosive miasma to try to reduce their ac making them easier to hit, and should focus his turns on doing rend attacks. Also don't forget to use polymorph.
They do seem to have fallen behind a little. Using the new hiding rules correctly might help, but I also think a big help might be to use some of the attack spells like booming blade along with a weapon that has the nick property. I have to do some more research, but I am working on a video about how those spells would interact with the various weapon masteries.
I keep hearing people say this. I do not understand why anyone thinks a rogue should do damage like a fighter. That’s not his job. Is anyone complaining that the fighter has fallen behind in skill use?
@@tony52398 You are correct. Not every class should do the same damage. I understand that people want the damage to be comparable between the classes. Combat is a big part of MOST games, but not all. In a combat heavy game, players tend toward high damage, because defense and control are sometimes hard to quantify. I like playing control characters, or high defense tanks.
Just to let you know, at 29:07 i discovered a mistake. Other than Charming Presence, which is very generic and just requires the Dragon to be able to see the PC, the other reactions requires a very specific trigger. The trigger for rending retaliation is that it 'takes' damage, and i didn't see anything that did damage to the dragon during the Wizard's turn. Remember that it is no longer a legendary action that can be used anytime between PC turns. Most reactions require a very specific trigger.
You are correct. In 2014 D&D the legendary reactions were all "at the end of turn". I didn't notice this change until I was already in the second fight, and I didn't really want to re-record the entire first fight. I figure that since I messed it up in both fights, at least it is an equal comparison.
I know the video was published before the DMG came out, but these results make sense given the encounter building rules. A single Ancient Green Dragon is under the “Medium” encounter threshold in the new CR calculations. You’d need two of them to challenge a level 20 party of 4, based on the new Encounter Building numbers.
Completely right. That is why I thought it was dumb for WOTC to not release any monsters or encounter calculations in the playtest. We were giving feedback, but we only had half the equation. I wish I had also done one run with 2 dragons, except I think there is no way the party survives that. 2 breath weapons for an average damage of 154, coupled with legendary reactions for claw attacks will drop most of the part pretty quick. Or, 6 charming presences, 2 per turn, would take down the party pretty quick as well.
I think that’s a good thing though?
The way they describe a medium encounter in the DMG is that “weaker characters might get taken out of the fight, and there’s a slim chance one or more characters might die.” Based on your example, I’d say that’s true as the Wizard came close to dropping and with a few more missed saving throws the party may have lost a character.
A Hard encounter is described as potentially lethal for characters and “to survive, the characters will need smart tactics, quick thinking, and maybe even a little luck.”
Two dragons fits that description to me. It should be one where the party probably lose without planning or spells that counter enemies (like the heroes feast you mentioned at the start).
@@JensenGKP Very true. We will have to see how this stuff really shakes out when we get access to more creatures.
The Barbarian deals an average of ~108.25 damage per turn to the Dragon. That is, the solo barbarian needs to survive 4 turns
Dragon (2014) makes 131.6 per turn
So barbarian can barely survive 3 turns. And if he has initiative above he would solo win.
2 barbarian vs 2 dragons is easy win in 3 turns btw. Cause axe double attack
I wonder if the barbarian could still do 108 damage per round while at disadvantage in a cloud kill. They could attack recklessly to counter, but that still only makes the attacks straight up. Also, unless they are a berserker barbarian, they will be making 2 saves per turn against being charmed.
In the 2v2 battle, even if they are berserkers and win initiative, after the first barbarian goes, BOTH dragons can attempt to charm the second barbarian. If he fails that, then it is a 2v1 battle in favor of the dragons. At that point it is all over.
@@hackthedungeon Disadvantage is a BIG factor, this calculation was more for me, cause I had plenty of time and never played or simulated stuff upper 5 lvl)
U forget that barbarian have damage reduction broooo....
@@meta671games That is a good point. They could last quite a while, but that still wouldn't help with being charmed.
Couldn't the fighter have used Indomitable to reroll the failed save with a +20? It'd be pretty nice to avoid being Charmed
avoiding being charmed is HUGE. I totally missed that. Rolling up 4 different 20th level characters leads to missing a lot. I totally should have used that.
Is the dragon not concentrating on cloud kill and charm or can it do both?
Surprisingly, Charm monster isn't concentration
I wonder how many of these fights the party could have sustained (with a short rest inbetween each round). 3? 4?
I know it would boring for the players. But an Ancient Dragon is smart enough to use a strategy, rather than simply brawling.
Wouldn't he use his flight speed to simply do strafing runs on the party? Truly smart would be to circle until his Breath Weapon recharges, and only enter the threat range of the party to use the breath weapon. Even just a couple of these would be devastating, regardless of how fresh the party is at the start. Add in the occasional spell on a non-recharge turn, and the party is pretty fukt.
Totally correct. The dragon would use better tactics. My goal was to just compare the charm vs damage strategies in this video.
I would target the Fighter and Rogue for charm instead of the spellcasters. Make the casters waste spells & turns to remove charm.
That might have been a better strategy, I was thinking that if I could lock down the casters so they couldn't dispel the charms, then the martials would be a walk in the park.
@@hackthedungeon I would add more to this. While charming the rogue and fighter, it should go after the cleric and the wizard, using his reaction to use corrosive miasma to try to reduce their ac making them easier to hit, and should focus his turns on doing rend attacks. Also don't forget to use polymorph.
Rogues have fallen so far behind every other class😢
They do seem to have fallen behind a little. Using the new hiding rules correctly might help, but I also think a big help might be to use some of the attack spells like booming blade along with a weapon that has the nick property. I have to do some more research, but I am working on a video about how those spells would interact with the various weapon masteries.
I keep hearing people say this. I do not understand why anyone thinks a rogue should do damage like a fighter. That’s not his job. Is anyone complaining that the fighter has fallen behind in skill use?
@@tony52398 You are correct. Not every class should do the same damage. I understand that people want the damage to be comparable between the classes. Combat is a big part of MOST games, but not all. In a combat heavy game, players tend toward high damage, because defense and control are sometimes hard to quantify. I like playing control characters, or high defense tanks.
The rogue should have used his capstone to turn a miss into a crit in both fights. Adding 20d6 sneak attack damage both fights would be a big deal.
Totally would, good catch.
That's just simulating the guy in the group who doesn't know his character despite the campaign being 2 years long.
@@jjhill001 too real 😅
@@jjhill001 only 2 years? Rookie numbers! My party's rogue is on her 2nd rogue in 4 years, and she's just started to figure out what Sneak Attack is
@@CooperAATE That tracks so hard it hurts lol.