How Christian Marriage Books Set Me Up For Failure ft. Natalie Hoffman - Episode 159
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- Things mentioned in this Bare Marriage podcast!
Natalie’s Flying Free site:
www.flyingfree...
Natalie’s awesome Facebook Page:
/ flyingfreenow
Instagram
/ flyingfreesisterhood
and RUclips channel.
/ flyingfree
Plus listen in to her podcast!
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Natalie’s book “Is It Me”?
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The terrible books Natalie mentioned:
Our post about Created To Be His Helpmeet
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Julie Anne Smith’s review of The Excellent Wife by Martha Peace
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The book that helped Natalie: Leslie Vernick’s Emotionally Destructive Marriage
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Patrick Weaver’s God Hates Abuse t-shirts
patrickweaver....
Patrick Weaver on the Malachi verse that is too often translated “God hates divorce”
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My post on how marriage was made for us, not us for marriage
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Support us on Patreon!
/ baremarriage
Or check out our awesome merch!
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Our Marriage Misdiagnosis series!
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My mental load series: With thanks to Eve Rodsky and Fair Play!
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Emily Nagoski’s book Come As You Are
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Krispin Mayfield’s podcast on attachment, and his book Attached to God
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The awesome men who have helped my thinking on sexual habits and the pornified style of relating-Andrew J. Bauman and Michael John Cusick
andrewjbauman....
restoringtheso...
For anyone here in the comments who are or have been in an abusive marriage: please look at your family of origin. Sometimes, not in all scenarios, it's how we are treated in our FOO that sets one up to accept abuse as love. 💕😢
Yeah it definitely set a precedent for the abuse my sister had. And we all fully supported her divorcing.....once she finally revealed it to us. It only took 10yrs!!
@@sackettfamily4685 I'm so sorry your sister endured 10 years! 😢 I endured 14 years. I don't think my family meant to hurt me, but not being accepted, seen, celebrated, delighted in, supported and encouraged by family hurts like crazy. It makes you feel like your a pos, and then you pick a spouse who'll see your insecurity and use up all your good qualities while breaking you down, slowly. 😖
I'm glad she's out and safe!!
I see what you're saying, however some women who may be in abusive situations might be hearing horrible lies from their husband (our marriage is bad because of your family if origin, because of your baggage, because your parents divorced and now you've brought a "generational curse" into our marriage, etc) may take this the wrong way, feeling like they deserve the abuse and neglect they are receiving.
"I started showing up as myself in the marriage...that made him really mad." Your story could be my story. And the second I showed up authentically and unapologetically, my abusive ex walked. He did not want a wife who was an actual person. He wanted a Stepford wife, and he saw Christianity as a tool to create that, which is appalling and something churches need to reckon with.
Conservative churches have created this problem.
Truth!👏
Your last sentence.......good luck with that one. It's a feature, not a bug.
@@dumfriesspearhead7398 What's a feature, not a bug?
No, it's definitely a bug, and can be rooted out and burned.
I was raped. It made me terrified of sex and marriage. I decided to read Christian books about marriage to try to allay my fears, but it scared and depressed me even more. I chose not to get married, but I had already decided that before reading the books.
I am so sorry to hear your tragic story. May God bless and guide you
Natalie!!!!! You are blowing my MIND!! This was my story too. Ex, you are you and I accept you and love you, but I love me and I have to exit. I wish you the best. ❤ He didn't like that, he came to me to try to guilt me to stay but it was all about how me leaving would hurt HIM. He didn't acknowledge how *I* was being hurt every day and dying slowly inside. Satan was trying to squash me by using my ex. I also believed my whole life: God Hates Divorce.
I had to set aside what the church was saying and go straight to God. I got on my face and cried and cried and cried. I begged God for a sign, a green light to leave. I also prayed to God for Him to end my marriage. I couldn't do it without His ok. I had a amazing dream that night and the NEXT DAY I was given the green light. My ex, during a fight, out of nowhere threatened me with going to prison over the back taxes that HE had kept us from paying. But because the business was in MY name, he thought I would go to jail and "assured me" that if I went to jail, he would keep running our business. My head exploded. He revealed himself in that very moment and that was my green light from God. This guy didn't care about me at all, to the point of having me sent to prison because *he* wouldn't let me pay our back taxes. I was so scared of him. Terrified. I could not, at the time, go against him and pay, without severe repercussions.
I left 5 days later.
God has blessed me tremendously since I left. I am remarried to the most amazing, patient, giving, kind, passionate, loving man~ we fit together so beautifully. Why would God bless us if He "hates divorce"?
17:20 YES!!! This was my story! "Well, marriage is hard for everyone!" I was told this too! I thought I was holier because I was suffering horribly in my marriage, and loved Jesus with all my heart!
My husband now is like this. He is my best friend. We work together in all things and when we hit a bump, we work through it and are closer FOR it, not further apart due to fighting.
Abuse is abuse.... everything she's talking about is how I felt growing up with my sister. And my parents trying to encourage a relationship between us.
Yes, the "marriage is hard" statement really prevented me from getting help for me and my husband too - for almost two decades.
Natalie you gave me my hope back! YOU SPEAK EXACTLY MY STORY AND NOW I KNOW I AM NOT CRAZY!
I've sobbed through this whole podcast because I'm hearing my own story and situation.
Sending you a big HUG Renee and praying for your situation. ❤️🙏 Please know you are not walking through your situation alone. This was largely my story and situation too and I am still recovering from all of the abuse I have endured with help from Celebrate Recovery, counselling and some of the excellent resources I found from Natalie Hoffman and Flying Free. 🌻
I’m sorry you’re going through this
I'm also sending you a BIG HUG, Renee! It's not your fault. ♥️
This is so amazing to listen to! I relate in so many ways. I used to read Natalie’s blog. We were also heavily into Vision Forum and my husband was a pastor. I’m a mom of 10 and divorced from my abusive husband 2 years ago. I felt like I would die if I didn’t leave. God has taken amazing care of us! I have a great job, I am dating a wonderful man, my kids have been through so much but are so much more stable than before. They haven’t seen their father in over 2 years because he has yet to complete the requirements for visitation in our divorce decree. Instead, he keeps trying to get me to change the requirements and take him back. It’s still about him, not his family.
There will be fallout for my kids from this, but it’s better than the alternative. God gives grace.
I think the reason these marriage books (the bad ones) still do well is simply because people don’t yet know that there are better ones. I’m doing my best to spread your books around and let them know! 😁❤️
That is likely part of it, but so much of it demands marriage at the expense of women and for the benefit of men. They're much more about maintaining the status quo of patriarchy than seeking mutual growth and joy. When the central premise is off, its' failure is inevitable.
I just LOVE that the two of you are friends! Both of you bring such great information, knowledge and wonderfulness to so many people! I've been a fan of Sheila since she wrote a blog post with the title of something along the lines of "10 signs you're respecting your husband too much." I've been enjoying Natalie's content even before she started her podcast! I lived in an emotionally abusive marriage for over two decades and the information I received from both of you was so validating for me and gave me strength and sanity during that very horrible relationship. I am so thankful for BOTH of you!
This was an amazing podcast....thank you my beautiful Sisters-in-Christ, Shiela & Natalie! Shiela, I first learned of you about 3 years ago when I was desperately sick of hearing the adage, "Love brings growth, expectations kill." I truly believe the Lord led me to your article, "Are Expectations in Marriage Wrong?" (or a similar title) on your "To Love, Honor, and Vacuum," site. It is the best article I've ever read on the subject.....well-rounded and unbiased, with clearly written points. And a life saver for me! For the first time, I felt somewhat sane and validated for the frustration I was experiencing.
Natalie, thank you for sharing your testimony and the lessons/truths you have learned along the way. Your story about going to the hotel room for 2 days and reading through your past 5 years of journals, and realizing you were in the same place and questioning whether you wanted to be there 5 years later, spoke volumes to me. I have enough journals to write a whole book series. My husband and I were working through the Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas but once again no connection, and it was very hard to answer some of the questions as they don't seem to apply to our "unique situation." Also, the answers to some of his questions are like we are in 2 different realities. And I was taking into account that each person thinks differently, esp men & women, but some of his were "beyond Mars" different. Anyhow in the book, suffering to become more like Christ is a prevalent theme and there's even a whole chapter dedicated to it. Then I talk to others who, like you, say, "Marriage wasn't meant to be this hard." Thankfully Gary has posted an article now that deals w/ abusive marriages, in which he acknowledges his books aren't good for and offers many other resources. It was in his article I learned about "The Emotionally Destructive Marriage," by Leslie Vernick and "The Verbally Abusive Relationship," by Patricia Evans. Leslie's book resounded with me much more than Patricia's. Although I found some helpful info in Patricia's book, I felt like overall it had way too broad of a spectrum of what constitutes abuse and could constantly make us question whether we are the victims or perpetrators. I would love to know the opinion/s of you or anyone else who has read "The Verbally Abusive Relationship."
Thank you once again and may God continue to bless your passion and purpose for His glory!
The "Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans was the first book recommended to me 23 years ago. Patricia helped me "put a name" to what what I was experiencing in my marriage..."covert abuse." This entailed crazymaking, emotional abuse, & spiritual abuse. 44:51
God actually got divorced (Jeremiah 3:8) and he was justified in doing so. Changed my thinking quite a bit.
Had an epiphany this week...as I meditated on the verses of scripture on marriage I realized most of them have to do with How people are to interact and treat each other Not how Long the marriage should last. On the contrary scripture seems to have a logical understanding that at times a marriage must end
The 'abusive theology of churches' is a new term for me, and SO true. That terminology also gives me hope that churches DO exist that have been built on an authentic, Biblical theology of grace. Thank you
So much pretending in the homeschool community! Yes. I was a Master Pretender and I deceived myself the best.
Natalie has such tremendous wisdom and such a light and loving touch on this very important subject-what real marriage is and should be and how it’s been distorted by human men who wore masks of Christianity that fooled the public but not their wives and families ❤❤❤!!! Bravo to both of you who bring the truth to those who suffer under the misinformation we are told by those who benefit from keeping women down😢. Thank you thank you🎉🎉🎉❤❤❤
Wow, you are so right with the family of abuse. Wish i heard this 10 yrs ago. 😮😅❤🙏
I love Natalie Hoffman so much, so grateful for her book, website, and sisterhood program. I am 2 yrs out of an abusive marriage and am thriving now.
I read “Me? Obey Him?”! STUPID STUFF! (But I bought it at the time!)
My now "ex" gave it to me as a wedding gift! My counselor 25 years later called it a "dangerous" book. At time of session I didn't understand what he meant, but as the years passed "after" being single again, I began to understand what the counselor meant by "dangerous" book! 😢
Thank you so much for this program. I had always felt that my experiences were unique, but so much of what came out of Natalie's mouth could have come out of my own mouth -- her experiences, her feelings about her experiences, her treatment by others, the beliefs which she had held for so many years, which she has deprogrammed, .... I still have a lot of deprogramming to do, and your channel is helping me. This has really helped me, thank you. 🙏
Love it!!! Yes!!! God hates abuse and so many things are abuse and need to be named as such!!!
I identify with Natalie so much. My mom abused me too so I grew up thinking I was WRONG and needed to do better within marriages also while being married to controlling manipulative men
Same!
Same! Mostly my dad. I was neglected, made to think love is conditional on what I do, how good I was, I was abused and neglected: it set up a low self esteem, a "helper" in me who was *set up* to accept 14 years of abuse in every way!
I've been out and free almost 14 years. My now hubby is amazing and loves God first. He is introspective. I just can't believe marriage can be this good! 🎉🎉🎉🎉
I’ve been following u both. Excellent excellent TRUTH TELLING
Just to clarify, homeschooling per se is not the issue. It's when you're controlling your kids hoping for a certain outcome.
This is a great conversation. The spiritual abuse is just now coming into clear view for me. I've been separated for a little over a year, and I was healing from so much that I couldn't take it in. It's very helpful to hear you talk about all of this from an insider's point of view. Thank you for the work you do.
So very difficult to even imagine there are any good men out there in the world…or that marriage could truly be a peaceful and joyful experience….
Even the best marriages are not peaceful the entire time. We had to work to get to where we are in our marriage. We have discussions rather than shouting matches because we realized no one is hearing if both are shouting.
Hard to imagine any good women exist.
@@PeterNorthsLeftTesticle Well, why don't you ask Christ to mold your heart, your attitude. Once you do that, you'll see all the good women.
I finally realized, and it took me way too long to see this, that there are no quality men in these very conservative/fundamentalist/Reformed churches, but instead, only men who are allowed to be narcissists.
Thank you Natalie for articulating this so well. You are telling my story though I am a senior now. I came across Leslie Vernick's book as well, "The Emotionally Destructive Marriage," and I was able to tell my husband I was done, and that journey took me four years of torment.
This was so good! I think it's all of us who have struggled.
Sheila, I'm asking you to please look up a teaching on RUclips about divorce and how terms have been defined to us. Look up MTOI "Divorce, Remarriage, & Putting Away". I think it will give you another tool to put in your arsenal. Thank you so much for what you are bringing to the table! ♥️
I could really relate to this. So much of what she went through sounded so familiar. I am so thankful and grateful for both of you and several others for helping me to see the truth about abuse. I stayed for 17 years, but I am free now. Awesome book ideas too!
AWESOME INTERVIEW!!! ❤️❤️
You can define a 'tree' by its fruit....that is in the scripts...
Same for me...I had no respect left for my husband for the same reasons. It's not possible in that situation.
My marriage was hard in the beginning - the first year of adjustment and then a few years later when I realized I was self-destructing because of all the "marriage" books and advice I was receiving. Thanks be to God, He led me to the RIGHT counsel and after working through abuse wounds and childhood trauma, our marriage is the absolute BEST part of my life. AND I love my kids more than I ever thought possible. They are no longer just because that's what a good Christian girl does is pop out babies. I am so blessed that my husband supported me and stayed with me while I disengaged - painfully - from the lies I was taught. :)
I am the same way. I think it is important to recognize past abuse compared to real current abuse. God forbid both, but acknowledge that is very real.
Thank you so much for sharing this.
In regards to the question of how things got this way, I believe it's because conservative Evangelical/fundamentalist/Reformed churches, and Catholic and Orthodox too, are structured around male entitlement/male comfort. Jesus doesn't think like this, but, and this is really hard, the rest of the NT kind of props up this idea. It's made it really easy for these churches to be all for men and view women as tools for male comfort.
You are so right! The fundamentalist ‘high demand’ religions are patriarchal in the extreme and want women to be Stepford wives AND make money and cater to their every want and desire. And they expect women to clean up after them and make their lives easy while giving nothing. That’s slavery and it’s illegal!
What is spiritual abuse? I'm starting to hear this term more and more. Thank you
You are my hero 🎉
Can you name some marriage books to instruct men how to have a successful marriage??
Sheila's book "The Great Sex Rescue" is an amazing book that helps...and I believe on Sheila's Facebook page (and website) has a list of healthy and safe marriage books! Hope that helps!
Look up books by the Gottmans
Minute 15:53 - I have autism and it’s been really hard for me when my husband and I disagree on a topic especially around theology and politics. I have a strong sense of justice and get really riled up. I know this is unique to other marriages but when you talk about a marriage being “easy”, I do believe for the most part we have that but because our politics and esp theology is different (including facets of this topic at bare marriage), it doesn’t always feel easy. Please share your thoughts if you can 🤗 thank you!
Anyone know where I can find the statistics quoted for the main reasons men and women in the church file for divorce?
Jehovah is a happy god.....not an abuser.....
You mentioned a list of all the Love and Respect issues...where would I find that. Thanks for the great info.
What book you would recommend to a healthy marriage? I throw away most of my marriage books
Are there any resources anyone can suggest about a handling parental emotional/verbal abuse?
Dr. Ramini on RUclips is very good at identifying and dealing with abuse in general.
@@carlamariee1 She's especially good in dealing with the narcissistic parent when you've been told all your life to honor your father and your mother and they have undermined you all of your life.
I’m still trying to process all that you are saying. I agree there is toxic teaching in the church, but God does call (all of us to suffer) in this age (Phil 1:29,30). Suffering can be a tool God uses to grow our character (rom 5) God doe ask us at times to lay down our ”rights” for a greater righteousness. I also believe God hates the treachery, not the abused person -divorce is the consequence of treachery and it HAS been weaponized against the victim sad to say (mal 2). But I do think each situation needs to be dealt with personally. I think it’s unwise to always endorse personal happiness over personal holiness at all cost. I would probably also be divorced or at least separated (narcissistic emotionally abusive and neglectful husband almost 40 years), but the sphere I share with him (kids grandchildren, ministry) is too nuanced to divide. I also tried to get the church involved and this whole ordeal shattered my soul and almost shredded my faith. My only slight disagreement with your narrative is “we DESERVE” a great marriage, life, whatever. We actually deserve death and hell. We get grace instead, and the promise of eternal life where everything suffered is not worthy to compare with the glory that is to come ( rom 8:18). I while heartedly agree this world is NOT the way God intended. But each situation must be guided carefully. Loved your book (she deserves better, though I don’t like the title) love the truth you are telling… just be careful how we walk alongside our sisters in their story. God WILL vindicate every transgression. No one gets away with anything. Blessing on both of you.
God calls us to suffer for his sake meaning, we will suffer because we will be persuaded by the world for believing in him. God does not create people to be abused. Yes, all things work together for good to them that love God and God will use our hardships but that is not an excuse to stay in abusive relationships. More often than not, when we stay in abusive relationships we are actually enabling that person to sin. We are not to be stumbling blocks. Furthermore if children are involved it is imperative to get them away from an abuser. Studies show that is it better for the children if the parent separate rather than continue in the abusive relationship. No father is better than an abusive father. By staying in the abusive relationship you are allowing the children’s father to abuse them and witness him abusing you. That causes children to turn from God and/or perpetuate the abuse cycle. Matthew 18 says “If you cause one of these little ones to go astray, it would be better for you that a millstone be hung around your neck and you be cast in the sea.” The punishment given for turning people away from Christ is a very harsh punishment. Also you said you share a ministry with the abuser. You are doing more harm than good. You don’t get sweet water from a bitter fountain or figs from thorns. The fruit of a sinful relationship may look good on the outside but it is poison to the body and the soul. I challenge you to read Matthew 23.
Yay!! First! ♥️💕💕💕
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