Really? I thought the tune actually fell apart, so free was his interpretation. Without knowing the piece, it would be impossible to know how the notes were supposed to relate to each other.
The modern recordings sound lifeless compared to the older ones. There is an excellent quality, long video on RUclips called "Debussy plays Debussy" that challenges the veracity of every modern recording I've heard. The rhythmic freedom of the melody from the accompaniment is particularly striking. Thanks
as a ballet dancer, while the older recording of swan lake is beautiful and has more life to it, the new recording would definitely be easier to dance to
Ravel too. You will find it is the most beautiful Ravel you have ever heard. I don't think it is because composers are better players of their own music. Pianists can be very good pianists. It has more to do with music education today. Crucial things happened in capitalism and music around WWII and the early post war years in particular.
Last year I started using nylgut strings on my classical guitar, to possibly get closer to what the composer actually heard and meant. Ok, then I move to a 432 =A because well, because actual gut wouldn’t take 440. Well, then I move to A=415 because of Bach. Now, at 67, I’ve cut my nails, moving toward gut, varying my tempo, sloppily playing my melody and throwing caution to the wind as far as modern classical guitar interpretation goes. Suddenly I’m free of my earthly bounds and I can just play. God I love this!
Wow, I never realized how most current music have a static tempo. It's become so common place I haven't even thought about changing tempos mid song. Really opened my eyes, great video!
For the Grieg example, part of the reason for the quicker tempo may be due to the recording format. At that time, commercial cylinder records were two minutes long, and I've had the impression that musicians, singers and speakers would hurry their performances along a bit as a result.
Maybe they weren't comfortable with this new technology too. After all, Music is alive, and a recording is a dead thing. It doesn't shock us today, but when you think about it, it's really problematic for a true artist. We can hear Scriabin (1910's cylinders) but his playing is different from what the critics said of him : He doesn't look free. On the contrary, we have Granados playing so naturally...
@@yvanvelojuillet My impression is that it's a mixed bag - some were excited that they could share their music outside the constraints of a touring schedule, while others were skeptical of taking time away from live performances. . ... For any individual performance, it could be as you said, or could be as simple as an on-day/off-day.
I was pleased when you used Judy Garland as an example at the end; the whole time you were talking about the relative freedom of the melody in the old recordings, I was thinking of how modern pop and rock singers were so much freer compared to the band in exactly the same way, how much vocal "scooping" they do that's basically in the same universe as a portamento, and how discretionary their vibrato is. We treat classical music nowdays as a sort of Procrustean bed, and it's really a terrible shame. It sucks a lot of the life and fun out of the music when it's just immaculate recitation.
Interesting video. To me the comparisons clearly indicate that the period examples demonstrate a focus on melody and an almost vocal approach to instrumental solo performance. Later musicians being more influenced by 20th century composers seem to be stricter with tempo rhythm and note value, and have lost some of the phrasing ability of the older performers. As for Judy Garland, an example of an absolutely natural musical instinct fully embracing the freedom of vocal phrasing. I've yet to hear a more pleasing performance.
Which composers would you have in mind? There are recordings of Bartók playing Beethoven with Szigeti and (even if it is not as extreme as some of the examples in the video) you can still listen to a lot of hallmarks of 19th century performance practice. Even in Bartók’s own pieces you can listen to tempo fluctuations which give a lot more character to his music than if it is played literally. Stravinsky is another example, but playing the piano, his conducting was not as skilled unfortunately.
As for Judy Garland's "absolutely natural musical instinct", I think it very likely that at 17 years old she had both a vocal coach and the conductor to guide her performance.
I know a violist who is playing without the neck support for 19th- and 20th-century music; (just like historicist performers do, placing more weight on the left hand); he was inspired by some of the great violinists and violists of the earlier part of the 20th century. Quite a different technique yet perfectly manageable for post-baroque music: another example of something which we think only was done so many 100 years ago - and yet, some great musicians of the 20th century applied it to all their playing! As to the tempo: such a fascinating observation when one starts comparing several recordings of the same piece throughout the 20th century, and notice that they become slower and slower... Thank you for making this video! It's very important for all musicians to stay reminded of the fact our performance practice even changes drastically in a relatively short time and that we should always stay critical of all things we tend to take for granted.
Fascinating. I never knew that there was such a discrepancy between modern and historical performance practice for music from as recent as the 19th century.
That Bernstein video where he suggests that "exact music" would be a good term for classical/art music.. it seems so misleading now. There's nothing that can be truly exact when we have performers, and we shouldn't think of classical music as exact. The weird thing is that he said this way back.. in the 1960s?
What I'm taking from this is the fact that I find a lot of beauty in all renditions of these pieces. They emphasize different things and I find beauty in all of it.
Yeah... it has a kind of nervous energy lacking in even performance a generation after him. I frequently play it for people to make them aware of how alive music can sound ...
The problem with breaking up the rhythm and note values to that extent is that the music is barely comprehensible, unless you know the piece well or are reading the score.
@@ThreadBomb if we accept that the page is at least in debussy's case a shadow of his actual intent, we can have a lively discussion. And just because debussy plays it a certain way doesn't in any way imply that is th ONLY way. I was introduced to th joys of RUclips historic performance when a friend suggested I listen to golliwogs cakewalk. The most "normal" performance was a Viennese player( among the first pianists to record anything I believe) whose name escapes me. Rachmaninoff had an interesting take on it and Debussy was really quite... interesting. The man wrote it and I'm not going to dismiss his performance but I wouldn't recommend anyone emulate it either ;-)
I wonder if some of the early faster tempi were a direct result of the time limitations of the recording media (wax cylinders and 78rpm discs)... we know from the early recordings by several jazz masters that they had sometimes to alter the tempi of works to get them to fit on a "side".
That was my thought as well. I would also be curious about where the mic was placed, the room, the differences in instrument construction, etc. I love these videos very, very much, but comparing early recordings of historical works with modern ones can be a problematic endeavor. As a conversation starter, this is an excellent video.
Yes. My thoughts weren't aimed at artistic performance decisions (inegal, rubato, and so forth) ... but more about the restraints the recording format put on the performance. If one only has a "3 minute side" (like on early 78 singles) and the work is generally 3:30 ... then one has to simply play it more quickly to record its entirety. The same holds true, but with different timings, on the other formats (some allowing longer times). Very interesting discussion.... but problematic!
Probably not. It's an aesthetic transformation, the time signature "Lento" , for example, are intended to be played faster than nowadays as we can see in the metronome indications anotated by chopin or listz. Also short musics ( that doesn't have problems to be fit in 78 rpm) often played faster. (Sorry, but my English is terrible)
Sometimes but examination of the actual records often show there was plenty of space. And when Menuhin was asked about the tempi in his recording with Elgar of the Violin Concerto he said there was absolutely no pressure to speed up to fit in on the records. They were allowed as musch space as they wanted. And, yes, the tempi are often faster than today's norm because that's the way Elgar wanted it to go..
You are so terribly right! I used to be a choir director, and when working on symphonic works with instrumental ensembles, the influence from my collection of old records would shine through, and my, oh my, how much I was bothered for this. The so-called "historically correct" musicians were the most unmusical, stubborn and difficult to work with.
I really love the explanation of how Judy Garland sang "Somewhere over the rainbow" in 1939. The graphics make the non-synchronisation very clear. I love this record even more now!
I absolutely love that Liszt recording. It's so loose and free that it almost sounds as if the three lower voices are the song and the top voice is background music from that's being picked up by mistake. So peaceful
Having some experience studying flamenco, I got the practice of waiting the singer hit the main notes before delivering the chords, because in flamenco is usual for the singer to play a little bit with improvisation and fluctuation, so we have to wait. It's just so satisfying to hear these recordings and notice that discipline and excellency hadn't to be shown on a regular tempo performance, but with interpretation. It seems to me as a more artistic approach. For trivia, I just accompanied a friend of mine on a Brazilian Popular Music-based show where when we were rehearsing, I never got the accompaniment on the same beat as her, because it became really natural for me and the music wasn't a dance-type, with a light flow. She went desperate asking me to stop doing that because it was making she think she was out of tempo haha
Great. Be aware of the recording situation. In early recordings of a piano, there is only one „microphone“ beside the piano. In dependence of the recording spot, this can lead to a volume difference in the recording between higher and lower strings. Nowadays, at least 3-4 microphones are used in a single piano recording so the volume difference of the strings can be much more flattened.
The version of that piece I hear most often is actually slightly older than that one, used in the 1931 film Dracula, and the playing was very similar to this 1933 recording. Both, in my opinion, are superior to the modern recording presented here in terms of performance and conducting.
Just wonderful to hear others who have made these observations. I specialise in both 1920s jazz and dance band music, and in light / salon music and your observation are all exactly on point (although variation in tempo is less relevant in popular dance music). I believe there was a perception that was common in the 1940s and 50s that music of these historical performance techniques were "bad taste" and a conscious move away from playing in this way was made - at least in the jazz, popular and light music music styles. I'm glad you also mentioned vibrato. There is a huge variance in how most modern players approach vibrato to how it was performed in recording of the 1930s and earlier. In jazz and and dance band music the entire tonal landscape changed dramatically in the early 1940s. Part of this is due to a conscious move to have a "modern sound". Instruments themselves evolved to give a different ideal sound to that of the 1930s, 20s or teen before that (in my opinion each of these eras had its own ideal sound for each instrument in the jazz/popular world). So saxophones made in the 1920s are often described as sounding stuffy (especially when played with the type of mouthpieces they were built to use) and not able to play loudly enough by more modern standards. Brass bore sizes and expected dynamic ranges changed quite substantially. Playing styles (including the way in vibrato was applied, but also phrasing, portamento, tempo etc) and the music itself was evolving to something quite different and in my opinion much the poorer for these changes.
What a wonderful video. This has always been an interest of mine. I often sit and chuckle when overhearing a discussion between musicians about 'what the composer wanted', or an argument over the tiniest detail in a piece, when in reality, the solution can or could be as varied and free as we hear in the examples you provided. It seems we have lost the sense of individuality that once existed in musicianship. A shame really.
Yes, and that of course is because of the ubiquity of recordings and media performances in later times having so much unconscious and trend like influence; because in previous times music being mainly heard live was more parochial.
On the other hand, it could be argued that so few musicians could hope to come near the genius of the great composers, that when in doubt they should stick to what the composer wrote rather than assuming they could do better.
@@ThreadBomb Personally, I am not a fan of too much reverence. It is not about the composer, it is about the piece. And musicians should be free to decide for themselves what is intriguing for them and play it exactly in that way. Obviously, if you are anxious to get the notes right, you are at a learning step during your career (learning probably never really ends), but that shouldn't stop you expressing yourself via this particular piece. Obviously, composers have their reasons why they write how they write. But that still allows for much freedom of interpretation that most composers probably even endorsed. Not even Bach would like to listen to someone slavishly adhering to his regulations to the letter although his music is very intricate and prone to be interpreted in a mathematical way.
It is such happy knowledge that there are persons taking care and loving old music and making all these beautiful things come alive and be known to newer generations. Thank you heartily.
That was FANTASTIC as always. A bit surprising considering that this week I was listening to old recordings too. What about piano rolls and barrel organ "recordings"?
We often assume we have a clearer overview of Romantic music performance practice then we have for Renaissance and Baroque one, but this video proves so it often isn't, and that still in the XIX Century the playing style was in lots of ways closer to that of the previous Centuries than it is in our mind.
THANK YOU for such a wonderful program. THIS MUST BE EDUCATION for ALL musicians and audiences...to show how much FREER performers were...even as they WERE closer , and indeed directly linked to the music of the times...much more "authentic" in fact...because they EMBODIED what the composers expressed as people OF their times...and in the traditions which were all part of one long line of expression.
One of the main differences between 1933 and now, is the quality of brass sections in orchestras. The Chicago Symphony Orchestra under the direction of Fritz Reiner in the 40s onwards served to redefine this. Although not focus of the presenters point, you can hear the difference before the Tchaikovsky clip ends.
I don't know who the presenter is on these videos, but I really like him. The information is so clear and so interesting. I have just started watching Early Music Sources, and I'm absolutely hooked. Wonderful observations about wonderful art by someone who understands and cares.
What a fabulous video. I am constantly baffled when I see people on RUclips denigrating historical practices and period instruments. How shallow and ignorant they are. Thank you for your work. Nga mihi nui
Wonderfully clear and up to the point observations. I love your videos, but this one is the best! My favorite line is that the note lenght was more dictated by the text then by the written value! Love it!
Another great video! I just wanted to point out that I think your modern recording of Carmen is kind of abnormal in the contemporary Opera world. Having been in an Opera and many other opera rehearsals, I can assure you that the singers essentially dictate everything from tempo to notes, and can almost do whatever they want within reason, and opera conductors and orchestras are trained (and rehearse) to listen for what the singer is doing, and anticipate/respond appropriately, be it artistic interpretation, or messing up! A prominent vocal instructor at my university even teaches her students to slow down when they sing above the staff!
I find current opera singers awful. They're lifeless and have horrid diction. With the golden age of opera I can understand every word they say, nowadays it's impossible and you need subtitles even when they sing in your own mother tongue! Ghastly.
The Liszt recordings particularly stood out to me. The first brought tears to my eyes. In the second, I was looking forward to another beautiful performance enhanced by high quality modern recording technology, but I felt... nothing. Incredible video highlighting differences between time periods!
For opera from the beginning of the 20th century, I often hear that singers had almost no vibrato, but the more I listen and the more I find counterexamples. I wonder if it may be more specific to the style of certain singers, maybe opera schools of the time, and probably the genre as well. Or maybe it could be attributed to even older recording techniques, because usually I find this style with no vibrato more before 1903 and in the end of the 1890s. I wonder why. When I listen to old recordings, usually it's simply that they adopt a more rapid and lighter vibrato than what we are used to in modern opera. There are other differences we can point out, like the better use of chest voice, but it's more specific to the voice I suppose and cannot be transfered into a general point for music in the video. I'll let some recordings here to support my point on how some old singers make vibrato too: - Adelina Agostinelli (not Patti), 1910, Tu che le vanità: ruclips.net/video/Mf4ww3oHQ80/видео.htmlsi=yiaFCd3CWsd2VqM3 - Giacomo Lauri-Volpi, 1922, Che gelida manina: ruclips.net/video/xcv0XrsQa5A/видео.htmlsi=JEk5ckxiZtb4nnvv - Celestina Boninsegna, 1904, D'amor sull'ali rose: ruclips.net/video/epQN0G_6IP8/видео.htmlsi=bxo9OiwzW5K1VZZl - Alessandro Bonci, 1905, A te o cara: ruclips.net/video/kvk2cv_HTnQ/видео.htmlsi=NmlPv2fC9sMXgORy
Excellent video. The notion that performers rushed and took faster tempi to fit all the music onto one side generally is not the case, as evidenced by many, many recordings themselves. More often -- if timing was an issue -- they would makes cuts in the music instead. In accompanied music, the introduction might also have been taken at a faster tempo (though some believe this wasn't done for the recording, but was the common practice of the time as well). In numerous recordings, especially 10 and 12 inch 78s, we hear singers, for instance, luxuriating on fermatas, at ritards, or stretching certain phrases, and there's no audible sense they're racing against the clock. If it meant only doing one verse instead of two, so be it. And, on the opposite side of the equation, sometimes arias would be repeated or partly repeated because they were too short for one side e.g. O mio babbino caro on a 12 inch side.
This is an awesome video! I often prefer the old recordings. Some of your examples are just beyond gorgeous -- they instantly transport the listener somewhere else. That Liszt recording by Frederic Lamond... wow! Let's just say, it's kind of you not to say who the modern performers are :-) I think there are many reasons. Recordings today are usually edited to such an extent that the phrasing is no longer inspired or even necessarily what the performer actually played (because each phrase is spliced together out of several pieces). Also, performers feel great pressure to play technically perfectly and to avoid taking all risks in their interpretations. Finally, the practice of adding on extreme reverb, like in that Swan Lake recording is something that has destroyed many potentially good recordings in recent years. Almost all the modern recordings you played weren't actually very well-engineered. That being said -- the rubati and portamenti etc that we hear here, as practiced in the late romantic era, could themselves also be mannerisms-- so the "straighter" interpretations in recent years are a counter-reaction to too much indulgence, and can sometimes let the actual music be understood in a simpler way. And we can assume that the difference in tastes and playing styles between 1930 and 1830 was just as big as between 1930 and now.
Performers in the 19th century who played too metronomically were regarded as dry and lacking in feeling. I think von Bulow was an example of this. Freedom was the norm and not regarded as mannered, and as in the video, with Grieg and Debussy, we can get a glimpse of the stylistic differences of 19th century performance. And not only with these composers, but with all of the performers who were rooted in the 19th century and born as early as 1839, Francis Plante, Paderewski, 1860, and Pachmann, 1848.
I have just discovered about this wonderful site- thank you very much for sharing your knowledge with ordinary people - like me- who can gradually acquire a better understanding of music
I am going weigh in on the first example, Swan Lake. Having spent the entirety of my working life in ballet, I am quite familiar with this particular excerpt, as well as the rest of the score. Not only have I studied countless recordings, I have performed it with live orchestras dozens of times. I will acknowledge the soloist part stood out immediately. The tempos however, I personally wouldn’t make much of the comparative differences here, particularly in context to ballet music. The tempo of any particular moment in any ballet can vary wildly between two different performances in the same day. Sometimes these variances are intentional. There might be one cast in the matinee for whom a slower tempo is ideal and a different cast in the evening for whom the opposite is true. More frequently though, the tempos that change go completely unnoticed by the conductor or the orchestra. The dancers however can tell when a piece is being played minutely slower or faster between performances. The tempos for ballet music are negotiated in rehearsal and renegotiated again throughout the run of a show. I would argue that the changes to tempo in ballet music have more to do with changing performance practices in dance than with the performance practice of music. In short, the tempos for ballet are dictated by the particular needs of the dancer on stage, regardless of any tempo markings in the score.
Gosh, I come to RUclips to be entertained but sometimes I end up getting an education into the bargain! Thank you so much for the superb content and presentation.
These are exceptional presentations; even as a profane music lover I watch them with the utmost interest! The poster is blessed with such a musical talent and the unbiased, dispassionate tone of the lecture makes the listening very enjoyable even for people who may disagree with some of the musical remarks.
That's very important work you're doing. It's great to learn that what early music enthusiasts consider the province of romantics, was in fact just as alien to those as to the baroque or Renaissance masters. (It seems a general tendency to view the score in a more and more literal way!)
Your videos are truly fascinating. I have watched about ten of your videos over the past two days, and I can't tell you enough how the insights have changed the way I look at music.
Your videos are so WONDERFULLY produced, with not just clever effects, but they are also so helpful in understanding the music. The overall effect of the videos is not only informative, but you dissect and analyze the music in a way that gets to the truth of the music, so the effect is that it's really MOVING... Bravi and thank you...
Fantastic subject, one that has seen very over excited and sometimes hostile discussions in certain venues here in You Tube land. By the way, I found just by chance a few months ago a metallic (?) cylinder recording of Brahms playing one of his fast pieces. The fat old and portly Brahms could still rip the keys up. What fascinated me is how fast he took the tempo, something that certain people would not expect if they counted a certain way. Yet, there he was, playing his heart out.
Thanks Elam, you did a fantastic job here. Another interesting feature is the agogic significance of hairpin signs (cresc. with accel., dim. with rit.) in the Barbirolli recording. I have seen this feature being linked to Johannes Brahms's performances, mostly on written evidence.
Me llama la atención lo que comentas del uso del vibrato, ya que las interpretaciones de los primeros grupos historicistas modernos (Leonhardt, Harnoncourt, etc) usaban poco o nulo vibrato, y se alegaba que ese vibrato excesivo fue resultado de la contaminación del romanticismo; pero viendo tu video me hace pensar que quizás ese “vibrato excesivo” en la música apareció hasta el siglo XX y no antes.
I love finding videos on youtube of pieces performed by the actual composer and seeing people complain about the performance. I remember seeing a video that was audio of Shostakovich playing one of his piano concertos and someone saying it was being played too fast
I love this video. I have been listening to these early performances since the early 1980's. I don't go to piano performances anymore. Stop going 20 years ago. Just not musical enough for me and lacking in feeling. I was familiar with the Grieg recording, but it was good to hear again, after not hearing it for quite some time. And I love Conchita Superbia and Patti. What a pleasure to hear them again. I didn't recognize the violinist, but she was wonderful too. Can't wait to explore your website.
When a muscinian feels a music, feels a certain note, feels the very vibration and sound the instrument makes, are things that cannot be determined by tempo. It's the subtle, sudden, or aggressive yet delightful imperfect nuances of a performance which makes it perfect.
Interesting analysis, thank you very much. As a musician, I prefer the looser artistic interpretations of the earlier recordings. Also the production on the newer recordings seems to play more of a role artistically -- i.e. there seemed to be reverb on the solo instruments, while the backing instruments were E.Q.'d differently, etc.
While it might be true and necessary in many cases, today too a good classical sound engineer would want to preserve a sound similar to the one you'd have sitting in the audience, ideally without many effects. I feel a big difference is that you can now record esp. orchestras with more sensitive microphones/pre-amplification and use the natural reverberation of whatever hall you're recording in better.
You are doing a great service, man! I absolutely love this video! When I listen to it, I get back my faith in humanity, and sincerely believe that we are not here in vain. Keep up this wonderful work, please!👍❤️
Great videos. I look forward to exploring them all. What seems clear is that performance practice changes relatively quickly in some ways. Makes deducing anything about really early practice quite tricky I guess.
Elam, i just found this 5 year old video, delightful. May I share a comment of Juliette Goldschwartz, my harpsichord teacher in the Mexico City Conservatory of Music, who was a pupil of Landowska. Once that I was playing a Bach piece too fast, probably a little prelude, she stopped my playing and said the Landowska used to say that in Bach´s time nothing moved too fast, there were “no cars or trains”, so there was no benchmark of presto “as we know it today” (in the 40s!) so we should play at a slower pace. I was fascinated with Wanda´s anecdotes very best.
6 лет назад+12
Muito obrigado por este vídeo excelente e muito inspirador. O vosso canal é maravilhoso!
I first learned about style evolution when I played some old 78's in Ohio State University's music library around 1965. I always loved Bach's Brandenburg Concertos, so I opened up a dusty album, pulled out a brittle old disk, cued it up, and nearly died: it was slow, lush, romantic, and simply hideous. I grew up with the Chicago Symphony's recordings from the 1950's and still like them, for they were brisk, precise, transparent, and inexhaustibly refreshing. I'm afraid I don't know the year or the artists in the early recordings I heard, but I certainly never forgot them. Perhaps these would be worth looking into.
This was phenomenal. Blew my mind and helped me grasp so much about music, which I have never studied formally. Thank you, thank you. Please do more of these.
As a person who spends his time researching and listening to early recordings, making them my leading musical resource, I want to compliment you on the great job you have done in this video. In addition to your conclusions, I would like to add that to understand how really music sounded in those times, and how we can revive it back, we must understand that unlike today there were various schools - each with their own emphasise and traditions. more over, we should try to avoid making conclusions from one performer and always should have a broader view. For example, Barbiroli's conducting is very unique to his time and he had a unique musical vision.
Thank you very much, it's very instructive! It could have been mentioned that the first oboe soloist is of course Leon Goossens, who was always quite different from everybody else! He is able to make his oboe as flexible as a voice; this was rather new.
There is that wonderful "Fauré plays Fauré" video on YT where the composer himself plays his famous pavane - on a reproduction piano, so xou can hear his performance without distortions. Most newer performances take the pavane slow, and in an earnest, almost dragic mood. In contrast, Fauré plays it in a nonchalant, almost casual mood, faster, with the melody desynchronized from the chords and much more declamatory. A perfect example of your observations, @Elam Rotem! Hillarious hence the comments of some listeners who judged this recording as "inauthentic", when they did not keep in mind the interpreter...
It was a special feature to include popular music on this approach on music interpretation. I think there is a lack of examples of popular music, mass media music and, above all, folk music inside the world of music speculation. Thanks so much for the quality of your videos. They are inspiring. I'm a music language teacher from Brazil, working at University of Rio Grande do Norte Music School.
I'm a total ignorant in what comes to the technicalities of music but I love to learn about them, even when I have to look up the definitions of the terms being used, which I know nothing about yet:-). I've just learned about your channel from a musician who's a dear web buddy of mine and I'm grateful for his suggestion cause you're incredibly knowledgeable and, as a true sage should be, you're also unpretentious, sharing your incredible knowledge with gracious humbleness and a captivating tone. Thank you for one more enriching and truly delightful video! Ahava rabah from this Brazilian ben anussim:-) P.S.: I'd love to see a video by you about Babra Streisand's amazing recording of 1977 album 'Classical Barbra', though, of course, I also loved your appraisal of the iconic Judy Garland singing the unforgettable song Over the Rainbow!
Like some others I would be VERY interested in your team's conclusions after listening to vintage piano rolls. There the audio recording distortions would be less of a factor, and playing style would be in focus.
While it’s an interesting analysis, lot’s of it is to be taken with a grain of salt, because some difference do not come from different historic praxis, but from completely different things. For example the recording technology and instruments might have a huge influence on tone and the way people play. → Tchaikovski: Imo very good comparisation. Note that around the 1950s the old german school of conducting (rubato, tempo changes) gets abandoned. → Liszt: Note that this piece requires you to arpeggiate lots of the melody notes. Lamond and Arrau try to acheive different things. Lamond slightly arpeggiates even those notes he doesn’t have to, so he can maintain a feeling of continuity, while Arrau tries to do the same by playing the arpeggiated notes rather quickly. Also remember that especially on solo instruments like the piano things like the skill and the school (in this case its the same one) as well as personal taste and mood of the player matter a lot. So you have to be very careful about making statements there. → Grieg: See the last point. Especially lightness is also greatly influenced by the recording technique (old records will have more dampening of low frequencies, leading to a very bright, light, clear sound) and the instrument and its intonation. → Bizet: You’ve got to be very careful there. The old recording is not a live performance, while the new one is (and from a big hall). This will absolutely change the ways you can express yourself, Supervia would not be able to sing like this in a performance. Especially the things you call declamatory character and the extreme tempo changes are only possible because she doesn’t have project and the group is very close together, thus allowing much more precision (compared to a performance, where singer and orchestra are quite apart, the singer has to move a lot and cannot respond to everything the conductor does). It would be wiser to compare it to an actual studio recording like ruclips.net/video/NPPzNgBsN6g/видео.htmlm15s but even then you have to remember that with the older technology the singer had to sing differently to carry through the orchestra than with modern technology.
Lamond doesn't arpeggiate for something so mundane as consistency. He does it to help voice the melodic notes and create illusions of portamento style effects. I'm sure consistency was the last thing on his mind.
@@cziffra1980 I understand what you mean, but that’s not what portamento means. And while I disagree that consistency would have been the last thing on Lamond’s mind (it takes far too much practising to get there), the point is that people are doing some things, because they want to acheive something.
@@TheVoitelI used the phrase "illusions of portamento style effects". I didn't use the singular word at literal face value. Rolled chords are how a pianist can make some degree of emulation of actual portamento, hence the expression. The fact he might have wanted to accomplish something doesn't mean that something was probably something so cold and logical as consistency. Listen to more old recordings and you'll hear at least as much arpeggiation where not a single one is required. It's about sound and projection. Not some artificial worry about conceptual consistency.
@@TheVoitel if anything, it would be more accurate to say that spreading chords is specifically intended to avoid consistency. There's only one way to land together. There are many different ways to fail to do so. Note the variety as opposed to consistency of the speed of the spreads and the varying degrees of displacement. Spreads create more diverse tonal possibilities than always landing together. These simple tonal issues are much more relevant than a concept of consistency that doesn't even show up as terribly consistent.
@@cziffra1980 This Nocturne does not feature a lot of rolled chords, and even if so they wouldn’t be part of the melody? I do not understand how this would acheive the illusion of portamento. But consistency is neighter cold nor logical, and definitely not artificial in the meaning you probably attribute to it (it is artificial in that sense, that it is a nescessity for the making of art, as opposed to just hitting notes). This is of course something you do not see in a recording, but anyone who plays an instrument would know how much practising it takes to get a consistent, organic and fluent play. Which is quite important, especially in cases like this, where you’re playing a melody along with a bass line and accompaniment. Only if all three of these are consistent in themselves they will be perceived as independent voices. With your second comment you are confusing *consistency* with *concurrency*. Avoiding concurrency will help you in separating different voices (which is something you’d else have to do by phrasing and voicing which is terribly hard!). Consistency doesn’t mean that you’re playing everything exactly the same way! By the way one has to remember that this piece is basically a piano solo version of Liszt’s Lied «O lieb, so lang du lieben kannst!». Thus there is one very strong guide of how to phrase this piece, and in my opinion Arrau does a significantly better job in conveying this source. Not only does Lamond make small fermatas before notes that you wouldn’t sing that way, Arrau also has much more development and a tempo that is more cantabile (Lamond is very slow, give this to a singer and he’ll die). The compelling thing about Lamond’s interpretation is just the amount of introspectation and attention he gives to every single fragment of a phrase.
You are such a magnificent master! I bow before you! Great erudite and humble human being that makes things easier for us! All my respects for you great master! I HAVE LEARNED FROM YOU IMMENSELY! THANKS!
When I was a learner musician in the '60's, I knew some older players whose early careers were during the 78rpm era. They said more than once that they couldn't always trust the tempos as the performer was limited by the length of one disc side. Just noticed Shelby Lewis' post below
Great video. Debussy also did some mechanical piano recordings that are very interesting, and the early recordings of Tchaikovsky's violin concerto are most interesting too. This permanent soloist rubato is met in CPE Bach's treatise, the frequent tempo changes in Brossard (on the Chaconne), and so on. I suppose there are many more but those I recall now.
One necessary difference from 78rpm record vs modern recordings was the necessity to keep to the 4 minute time limitations of a single side of a 12" disk. Conductors had to often pick up the pace to achieve completion. This held true for full works such as a Bruckner Symphony which might have required 10 disks with 4 minute per-side segments!
By the way, the first version of swan lake is lovely, I love in general how on early recordings the soloists had some sort of bigger liberty to perform
I agree with Shelby Lewis that the time on one side of a 78 rpm record was the reason for haste. Also, the degree of the width of the 78 records changed over time, in the 40's & early 50's more time!
Faster tempi could be a function of errors in transcription. The older recordings appear 'adjusted' upwards to A=440, during which process the tempos increased, the rate of vibrato increases, and vowel formants are slightly shifted upward, creating a 'lighter' vocal quality as well. The tempi of old player-piano rolls would be determined at the time of conversion from player-piano to recording medium and need to be considered suspect.
There are no piano roll recordings in this video and the tempo difference is clearly more than the may be 0.5% change needed to adjust the pitch to A=440, which I doubt has been done to any of the recordings here at any rate.
There's also the question of the limited time available on a phonograph record. I have certainly, for example, listened to Rachmaninov playing his own piano music on phonograph, which often seems quite fast, but he also cut piano rolls (and, for the more advanced automatic pianos available at the time, speed control could be added). When you hear Raachmaninov's playing on a roll (with added controlled speed), it becomes much less rapid - the roll allows a more extended time-limit to play the piece in. To compare basic tempi, I think it would be important to choose pieces whose length is well under that of the maximum time of the side of a phonograph record.
![Gunna - HIM ALL ALONG [Official Visualizer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/HiCxoDeo0hc/mqdefault.jpg)
That historical recording of the Liszt Liebestraum is magnificent
Really? I thought the tune actually fell apart, so free was his interpretation. Without knowing the piece, it would be impossible to know how the notes were supposed to relate to each other.
Thread Bomb You are right he uses quite a bit of rubato but in my opinion it is perfect.
I agree, I thought it was splendid
And one can hardly argue with one who studied with Liszt himself.
It had more soul than the modern players who try to make everything too darn perfect.
Magnificent content, you're in that little part of RUclips that is truly worthwhile and educative.
Could not agree more, thanks wholeheartedly!
100.0% agree. This channel blows me away. So happy YT recommended it...
The way Lamond makes the melody sing on the piano - it is so human, so touching. Incredible.
My H.S. piano teacher, Mrs. Libby, taught me about rubato. Thank you Mrs. Libby! I'm still 'playing' with the concept, naturally!
The modern recordings sound lifeless compared to the older ones. There is an excellent quality, long video on RUclips called "Debussy plays Debussy" that challenges the veracity of every modern recording I've heard. The rhythmic freedom of the melody from the accompaniment is particularly striking. Thanks
Thanks for that. I found it and am going to listen to it right now.
Pretty sure that's just a piano roll but was made by Debussy himself playing the piano.
as a ballet dancer, while the older recording of swan lake is beautiful and has more life to it, the new recording would definitely be easier to dance to
Ravel too. You will find it is the most beautiful Ravel you have ever heard. I don't think it is because composers are better players of their own music. Pianists can be very good pianists. It has more to do with music education today. Crucial things happened in capitalism and music around WWII and the early post war years in particular.
@@simonsmatthew Yes, I've heard a number of recordings of Ravel playing Ravel. Beautiful and instructive.
Even Leopold Mozart wrote about it... the accompaniment stays steady while the soloists is flexible around it
These were also Chopin's and WA Mozart's instructions. Horowitz also talks about this. Jazz pianists also understand the meaning of this very well.
@@davidbruce7244 sources?
Last year I started using nylgut strings on my classical guitar, to possibly get closer to what the composer actually heard and meant. Ok, then I move to a 432 =A because well, because actual gut wouldn’t take 440. Well, then I move to A=415 because of Bach. Now, at 67, I’ve cut my nails, moving toward gut, varying my tempo, sloppily playing my melody and throwing caution to the wind as far as modern classical guitar interpretation goes. Suddenly I’m free of my earthly bounds and I can just play. God I love this!
Wow, I never realized how most current music have a static tempo. It's become so common place I haven't even thought about changing tempos mid song. Really opened my eyes, great video!
I want to do this. No one get it.
We do it all the time. Not always entirely intentionally though.
For the Grieg example, part of the reason for the quicker tempo may be due to the recording format. At that time, commercial cylinder records were two minutes long, and I've had the impression that musicians, singers and speakers would hurry their performances along a bit as a result.
Excellent point.
Maybe they weren't comfortable with this new technology too. After all, Music is alive, and a recording is a dead thing. It doesn't shock us today, but when you think about it, it's really problematic for a true artist. We can hear Scriabin (1910's cylinders) but his playing is different from what the critics said of him : He doesn't look free. On the contrary, we have Granados playing so naturally...
@@yvanvelojuillet My impression is that it's a mixed bag - some were excited that they could share their music outside the constraints of a touring schedule, while others were skeptical of taking time away from live performances. . ... For any individual performance, it could be as you said, or could be as simple as an on-day/off-day.
Even on later recordings on 78s the same issue can be in play
“Inégalité” is my new favorite word for describing someone’s playing
Me too,but I do not have the French accent to deliver it like our friend in this video.
I was pleased when you used Judy Garland as an example at the end; the whole time you were talking about the relative freedom of the melody in the old recordings, I was thinking of how modern pop and rock singers were so much freer compared to the band in exactly the same way, how much vocal "scooping" they do that's basically in the same universe as a portamento, and how discretionary their vibrato is. We treat classical music nowdays as a sort of Procrustean bed, and it's really a terrible shame. It sucks a lot of the life and fun out of the music when it's just immaculate recitation.
Interesting video. To me the comparisons clearly indicate that the period examples demonstrate a focus on melody and an almost vocal approach to instrumental solo performance. Later musicians being more influenced by 20th century composers seem to be stricter with tempo rhythm and note value, and have lost some of the phrasing ability of the older performers. As for Judy Garland, an example of an absolutely natural musical instinct fully embracing the freedom of vocal phrasing. I've yet to hear a more pleasing performance.
Which composers would you have in mind? There are recordings of Bartók playing Beethoven with Szigeti and (even if it is not as extreme as some of the examples in the video) you can still listen to a lot of hallmarks of 19th century performance practice. Even in Bartók’s own pieces you can listen to tempo fluctuations which give a lot more character to his music than if it is played literally. Stravinsky is another example, but playing the piano, his conducting was not as skilled unfortunately.
As for Judy Garland's "absolutely natural musical instinct", I think it very likely that at 17 years old she had both a vocal coach and the conductor to guide her performance.
@Nicholas Ennos But Judy Garland stays in beat, when you count over multiple beats. Wonderful.
I know a violist who is playing without the neck support for 19th- and 20th-century music; (just like historicist performers do, placing more weight on the left hand); he was inspired by some of the great violinists and violists of the earlier part of the 20th century. Quite a different technique yet perfectly manageable for post-baroque music: another example of something which we think only was done so many 100 years ago - and yet, some great musicians of the 20th century applied it to all their playing!
As to the tempo: such a fascinating observation when one starts comparing several recordings of the same piece throughout the 20th century, and notice that they become slower and slower... Thank you for making this video! It's very important for all musicians to stay reminded of the fact our performance practice even changes drastically in a relatively short time and that we should always stay critical of all things we tend to take for granted.
Fascinating. I never knew that there was such a discrepancy between modern and historical performance practice for music from as recent as the 19th century.
That Bernstein video where he suggests that "exact music" would be a good term for classical/art music.. it seems so misleading now. There's nothing that can be truly exact when we have performers, and we shouldn't think of classical music as exact. The weird thing is that he said this way back.. in the 1960s?
What I'm taking from this is the fact that I find a lot of beauty in all renditions of these pieces. They emphasize different things and I find beauty in all of it.
For a completely different sound than we hear today, check out Debussy himself playing Clair de Lune.
Would you please paste a link you'd recommend? Thank you
ruclips.net/video/Yri2JNhyG4k/видео.html playing his own piano piece
Yeah... it has a kind of nervous energy lacking in even performance a generation after him. I frequently play it for people to make them aware of how alive music can sound ...
The problem with breaking up the rhythm and note values to that extent is that the music is barely comprehensible, unless you know the piece well or are reading the score.
@@ThreadBomb if we accept that the page is at least in debussy's case a shadow of his actual intent, we can have a lively discussion. And just because debussy plays it a certain way doesn't in any way imply that is th ONLY way.
I was introduced to th joys of RUclips historic performance when a friend suggested I listen to golliwogs cakewalk. The most "normal" performance was a Viennese player( among the first pianists to record anything I believe) whose name escapes me. Rachmaninoff had an interesting take on it and Debussy was really quite... interesting. The man wrote it and I'm not going to dismiss his performance but I wouldn't recommend anyone emulate it either ;-)
I wonder if some of the early faster tempi were a direct result of the time limitations of the recording media (wax cylinders and 78rpm discs)... we know from the early recordings by several jazz masters that they had sometimes to alter the tempi of works to get them to fit on a "side".
That was my thought as well. I would also be curious about where the mic was placed, the room, the differences in instrument construction, etc. I love these videos very, very much, but comparing early recordings of historical works with modern ones can be a problematic endeavor. As a conversation starter, this is an excellent video.
Yes. My thoughts weren't aimed at artistic performance decisions (inegal, rubato, and so forth) ... but more about the restraints the recording format put on the performance. If one only has a "3 minute side" (like on early 78 singles) and the work is generally 3:30 ... then one has to simply play it more quickly to record its entirety. The same holds true, but with different timings, on the other formats (some allowing longer times). Very interesting discussion.... but problematic!
Probably not. It's an aesthetic transformation, the time signature "Lento" , for example, are intended to be played faster than nowadays as we can see in the metronome indications anotated by chopin or listz. Also short musics ( that doesn't have problems to be fit in 78 rpm) often played faster. (Sorry, but my English is terrible)
Sometimes but examination of the actual records often show there was plenty of space. And when Menuhin was asked about the tempi in his recording with Elgar of the Violin Concerto he said there was absolutely no pressure to speed up to fit in on the records. They were allowed as musch space as they wanted. And, yes, the tempi are often faster than today's norm because that's the way Elgar wanted it to go..
Also the prominance of melody over accompaniment could be necessary when horrible recording quality would otherwise obscure the melody.
You are so terribly right! I used to be a choir director, and when working on symphonic works with instrumental ensembles, the influence from my collection of old records would shine through, and my, oh my, how much I was bothered for this. The so-called "historically correct" musicians were the most unmusical, stubborn and difficult to work with.
Urtext people. Don't like them.
I really love the explanation of how Judy Garland sang "Somewhere over the rainbow" in 1939. The graphics make the non-synchronisation very clear. I love this record even more now!
I absolutely love that Liszt recording.
It's so loose and free that it almost sounds as if the three lower voices are the song and the top voice is background music from that's being picked up by mistake.
So peaceful
Having some experience studying flamenco, I got the practice of waiting the singer hit the main notes before delivering the chords, because in flamenco is usual for the singer to play a little bit with improvisation and fluctuation, so we have to wait. It's just so satisfying to hear these recordings and notice that discipline and excellency hadn't to be shown on a regular tempo performance, but with interpretation. It seems to me as a more artistic approach.
For trivia, I just accompanied a friend of mine on a Brazilian Popular Music-based show where when we were rehearsing, I never got the accompaniment on the same beat as her, because it became really natural for me and the music wasn't a dance-type, with a light flow. She went desperate asking me to stop doing that because it was making she think she was out of tempo haha
Great. Be aware of the recording situation. In early recordings of a piano, there is only one „microphone“ beside the piano. In dependence of the recording spot, this can lead to a volume difference in the recording between higher and lower strings. Nowadays, at least 3-4 microphones are used in a single piano recording so the volume difference of the strings can be much more flattened.
In the Tchaikovsky at the beginning the modern rec seemed to lacked the energy the old one had
That's what I thought, too. Someone seemed to have analyzed the life out of it.
Giuseppe Steigman it’s was made with an electric microphone. 1933
The version of that piece I hear most often is actually slightly older than that one, used in the 1931 film Dracula, and the playing was very similar to this 1933 recording. Both, in my opinion, are superior to the modern recording presented here in terms of performance and conducting.
@@Ettoredipugnar an electric microphone?
@dolofonos it's not moderate. It's rather slow.
Malcolm Bilson talked about a lot of what we hear in his brilliant lecture “knowing the score”. Everyone should watch it.
Just wonderful to hear others who have made these observations. I specialise in both 1920s jazz and dance band music, and in light / salon music and your observation are all exactly on point (although variation in tempo is less relevant in popular dance music). I believe there was a perception that was common in the 1940s and 50s that music of these historical performance techniques were "bad taste" and a conscious move away from playing in this way was made - at least in the jazz, popular and light music music styles.
I'm glad you also mentioned vibrato. There is a huge variance in how most modern players approach vibrato to how it was performed in recording of the 1930s and earlier. In jazz and and dance band music the entire tonal landscape changed dramatically in the early 1940s. Part of this is due to a conscious move to have a "modern sound". Instruments themselves evolved to give a different ideal sound to that of the 1930s, 20s or teen before that (in my opinion each of these eras had its own ideal sound for each instrument in the jazz/popular world). So saxophones made in the 1920s are often described as sounding stuffy (especially when played with the type of mouthpieces they were built to use) and not able to play loudly enough by more modern standards. Brass bore sizes and expected dynamic ranges changed quite substantially. Playing styles (including the way in vibrato was applied, but also phrasing, portamento, tempo etc) and the music itself was evolving to something quite different and in my opinion much the poorer for these changes.
What a wonderful video. This has always been an interest of mine. I often sit and chuckle when overhearing a discussion between musicians about 'what the composer wanted', or an argument over the tiniest detail in a piece, when in reality, the solution can or could be as varied and free as we hear in the examples you provided. It seems we have lost the sense of individuality that once existed in musicianship. A shame really.
Yes, and that of course is because of the ubiquity of recordings and media performances in later times having so much unconscious and trend like influence; because in previous times music being mainly heard live was more parochial.
On the other hand, it could be argued that so few musicians could hope to come near the genius of the great composers, that when in doubt they should stick to what the composer wrote rather than assuming they could do better.
@@ThreadBomb
Personally, I am not a fan of too much reverence. It is not about the composer, it is about the piece. And musicians should be free to decide for themselves what is intriguing for them and play it exactly in that way. Obviously, if you are anxious to get the notes right, you are at a learning step during your career (learning probably never really ends), but that shouldn't stop you expressing yourself via this particular piece.
Obviously, composers have their reasons why they write how they write. But that still allows for much freedom of interpretation that most composers probably even endorsed. Not even Bach would like to listen to someone slavishly adhering to his regulations to the letter although his music is very intricate and prone to be interpreted in a mathematical way.
It is such happy knowledge that there are persons taking care and loving old music and making all these beautiful things come alive and be known to newer generations. Thank you heartily.
That was FANTASTIC as always. A bit surprising considering that this week I was listening to old recordings too. What about piano rolls and barrel organ "recordings"?
We often assume we have a clearer overview of Romantic music performance practice then we have for Renaissance and Baroque one, but this video proves so it often isn't, and that still in the XIX Century the playing style was in lots of ways closer to that of the previous Centuries than it is in our mind.
The consistent quality of Elam’s work is enough to refresh the soul.
THANK YOU for such a wonderful program. THIS MUST BE EDUCATION for ALL musicians and audiences...to show how much FREER performers were...even as they WERE closer , and indeed directly linked to the music of the times...much more "authentic" in fact...because they EMBODIED what the composers expressed as people OF their times...and in the traditions which were all part of one long line of expression.
The analysis of this if fantastic. Bravo
One of the main differences between 1933 and now, is the quality of brass sections in orchestras. The Chicago Symphony Orchestra under the direction of Fritz Reiner in the 40s onwards served to redefine this. Although not focus of the presenters point, you can hear the difference before the Tchaikovsky clip ends.
Bravo, Mr. Rotem--this is fascinating material and beautifully presented, and I'm looking forward to learning from Early Music Source's other videos.
I don't know who the presenter is on these videos, but I really like him. The information is so clear and so interesting. I have just started watching Early Music Sources, and I'm absolutely hooked. Wonderful observations about wonderful art by someone who understands and cares.
What a fabulous video. I am constantly baffled when I see people on RUclips denigrating historical practices and period instruments. How shallow and ignorant they are. Thank you for your work. Nga mihi nui
Will he understand maori do you really think????
Fantastic presentation- a paradigm for others beyond the realm of music. Examples are carefully chosen and commentary is specific, yet neutral. Bravo!
Wonderfully clear and up to the point observations. I love your videos, but this one is the best! My favorite line is that the note lenght was more dictated by the text then by the written value! Love it!
The Carmen example is stunning, the modern performer changes her voice quality depending on the register. The 1930s singer is consistent.
Another great video! I just wanted to point out that I think your modern recording of Carmen is kind of abnormal in the contemporary Opera world. Having been in an Opera and many other opera rehearsals, I can assure you that the singers essentially dictate everything from tempo to notes, and can almost do whatever they want within reason, and opera conductors and orchestras are trained (and rehearse) to listen for what the singer is doing, and anticipate/respond appropriately, be it artistic interpretation, or messing up! A prominent vocal instructor at my university even teaches her students to slow down when they sing above the staff!
"slow down when they sing above the staff" - wow.
Whether or not singers can dictate what to do is debatable. If you have a good conductor then yes, the singer can be allowed artistic freedom
Ah that's where they get their dragging from.
I find current opera singers awful. They're lifeless and have horrid diction. With the golden age of opera I can understand every word they say, nowadays it's impossible and you need subtitles even when they sing in your own mother tongue! Ghastly.
Bravo! Excellent analysis. What a treasure
The Liszt recordings particularly stood out to me. The first brought tears to my eyes. In the second, I was looking forward to another beautiful performance enhanced by high quality modern recording technology, but I felt... nothing. Incredible video highlighting differences between time periods!
For opera from the beginning of the 20th century, I often hear that singers had almost no vibrato, but the more I listen and the more I find counterexamples. I wonder if it may be more specific to the style of certain singers, maybe opera schools of the time, and probably the genre as well. Or maybe it could be attributed to even older recording techniques, because usually I find this style with no vibrato more before 1903 and in the end of the 1890s. I wonder why. When I listen to old recordings, usually it's simply that they adopt a more rapid and lighter vibrato than what we are used to in modern opera. There are other differences we can point out, like the better use of chest voice, but it's more specific to the voice I suppose and cannot be transfered into a general point for music in the video. I'll let some recordings here to support my point on how some old singers make vibrato too:
- Adelina Agostinelli (not Patti), 1910, Tu che le vanità: ruclips.net/video/Mf4ww3oHQ80/видео.htmlsi=yiaFCd3CWsd2VqM3
- Giacomo Lauri-Volpi, 1922, Che gelida manina: ruclips.net/video/xcv0XrsQa5A/видео.htmlsi=JEk5ckxiZtb4nnvv
- Celestina Boninsegna, 1904, D'amor sull'ali rose: ruclips.net/video/epQN0G_6IP8/видео.htmlsi=bxo9OiwzW5K1VZZl
- Alessandro Bonci, 1905, A te o cara: ruclips.net/video/kvk2cv_HTnQ/видео.htmlsi=NmlPv2fC9sMXgORy
Excellent video. The notion that performers rushed and took faster tempi to fit all the music onto one side generally is not the case, as evidenced by many, many recordings themselves. More often -- if timing was an issue -- they would makes cuts in the music instead. In accompanied music, the introduction might also have been taken at a faster tempo (though some believe this wasn't done for the recording, but was the common practice of the time as well). In numerous recordings, especially 10 and 12 inch 78s, we hear singers, for instance, luxuriating on fermatas, at ritards, or stretching certain phrases, and there's no audible sense they're racing against the clock. If it meant only doing one verse instead of two, so be it. And, on the opposite side of the equation, sometimes arias would be repeated or partly repeated because they were too short for one side e.g. O mio babbino caro on a 12 inch side.
Those early vocal recordings are absolutely lovely!
This is an awesome video! I often prefer the old recordings. Some of your examples are just beyond gorgeous -- they instantly transport the listener somewhere else. That Liszt recording by Frederic Lamond... wow!
Let's just say, it's kind of you not to say who the modern performers are :-)
I think there are many reasons. Recordings today are usually edited to such an extent that the phrasing is no longer inspired or even necessarily what the performer actually played (because each phrase is spliced together out of several pieces).
Also, performers feel great pressure to play technically perfectly and to avoid taking all risks in their interpretations. Finally, the practice of adding on extreme reverb, like in that Swan Lake recording is something that has destroyed many potentially good recordings in recent years. Almost all the modern recordings you played weren't actually very well-engineered.
That being said -- the rubati and portamenti etc that we hear here, as practiced in the late romantic era, could themselves also be mannerisms-- so the "straighter" interpretations in recent years are a counter-reaction to too much indulgence, and can sometimes let the actual music be understood in a simpler way. And we can assume that the difference in tastes and playing styles between 1930 and 1830 was just as big as between 1930 and now.
Performers in the 19th century who played too metronomically were regarded as dry and lacking in feeling. I think von Bulow was an example of this. Freedom was the norm and not regarded as mannered, and as in the video, with Grieg and Debussy, we can get a glimpse of the stylistic differences of 19th century performance. And not only with these composers, but with all of the performers who were rooted in the 19th century and born as early as 1839, Francis Plante, Paderewski, 1860, and Pachmann, 1848.
I have just discovered about this wonderful site- thank you very much for sharing your knowledge with ordinary people - like me- who can gradually acquire a better understanding of music
I am going weigh in on the first example, Swan Lake. Having spent the entirety of my working life in ballet, I am quite familiar with this particular excerpt, as well as the rest of the score. Not only have I studied countless recordings, I have performed it with live orchestras dozens of times. I will acknowledge the soloist part stood out immediately. The tempos however, I personally wouldn’t make much of the comparative differences here, particularly in context to ballet music. The tempo of any particular moment in any ballet can vary wildly between two different performances in the same day. Sometimes these variances are intentional. There might be one cast in the matinee for whom a slower tempo is ideal and a different cast in the evening for whom the opposite is true. More frequently though, the tempos that change go completely unnoticed by the conductor or the orchestra. The dancers however can tell when a piece is being played minutely slower or faster between performances. The tempos for ballet music are negotiated in rehearsal and renegotiated again throughout the run of a show. I would argue that the changes to tempo in ballet music have more to do with changing performance practices in dance than with the performance practice of music.
In short, the tempos for ballet are dictated by the particular needs of the dancer on stage, regardless of any tempo markings in the score.
questi vostri video sono tutti straordinari! complimenti
These videos are amazing! congratulations! and thanks
Gosh, I come to RUclips to be entertained but sometimes I end up getting an education into the bargain! Thank you so much for the superb content and presentation.
These are exceptional presentations; even as a profane music lover I watch them with the utmost interest! The poster is blessed with such a musical talent and the unbiased, dispassionate tone of the lecture makes the listening very enjoyable even for people who may disagree with some of the musical remarks.
That's very important work you're doing. It's great to learn that what early music enthusiasts consider the province of romantics, was in fact just as alien to those as to the baroque or Renaissance masters. (It seems a general tendency to view the score in a more and more literal way!)
Your videos are truly fascinating. I have watched about ten of your videos over the past two days, and I can't tell you enough how the insights have changed the way I look at music.
Your videos are so WONDERFULLY produced, with not just clever effects, but they are also so helpful in understanding the music. The overall effect of the videos is not only informative, but you dissect and analyze the music in a way that gets to the truth of the music, so the effect is that it's really MOVING... Bravi and thank you...
Fantastic subject, one that has seen very over excited and sometimes hostile discussions in certain venues here in You Tube land.
By the way, I found just by chance a few months ago a metallic (?) cylinder recording of Brahms playing one of his fast pieces. The fat old and portly Brahms could still rip the keys up. What fascinated me is how fast he took the tempo, something that certain people would not expect if they counted a certain way. Yet, there he was, playing his heart out.
Garland owns that song-- one of the best songs ever written.
Thank you!
Thanks Elam, you did a fantastic job here. Another interesting feature is the agogic significance of hairpin signs (cresc. with accel., dim. with rit.) in the Barbirolli recording. I have seen this feature being linked to Johannes Brahms's performances, mostly on written evidence.
Me llama la atención lo que comentas del uso del vibrato, ya que las interpretaciones de los primeros grupos historicistas modernos (Leonhardt, Harnoncourt, etc) usaban poco o nulo vibrato, y se alegaba que ese vibrato excesivo fue resultado de la contaminación del romanticismo; pero viendo tu video me hace pensar que quizás ese “vibrato excesivo” en la música apareció hasta el siglo XX y no antes.
Thank you very much for this glimpse in the world of historical recordings.
Lots to learn as always. A sensation of tender peace lingers.
Historical recordings are true charming!
I love finding videos on youtube of pieces performed by the actual composer and seeing people complain about the performance. I remember seeing a video that was audio of Shostakovich playing one of his piano concertos and someone saying it was being played too fast
beautiful gramophone matching precious recordings! Thank you for sharing such treasure!
I love this video. I have been listening to these early performances since the early 1980's. I don't go to piano performances anymore. Stop going 20 years ago. Just not musical enough for me and lacking in feeling. I was familiar with the Grieg recording, but it was good to hear again, after not hearing it for quite some time. And I love Conchita Superbia and Patti. What a pleasure to hear them again. I didn't recognize the violinist, but she was wonderful too. Can't wait to explore your website.
When a muscinian feels a music, feels a certain note, feels the very vibration and sound the instrument makes, are things that cannot be determined by tempo. It's the subtle, sudden, or aggressive yet delightful imperfect nuances of a performance which makes it perfect.
And now, you've made me nostalgic.
Fascinating - thank you so much for these valuable insights, these old recordings sound fresh and inspiring!
Interesting analysis, thank you very much. As a musician, I prefer the looser artistic interpretations of the earlier recordings. Also the production on the newer recordings seems to play more of a role artistically -- i.e. there seemed to be reverb on the solo instruments, while the backing instruments were E.Q.'d differently, etc.
While it might be true and necessary in many cases, today too a good classical sound engineer would want to preserve a sound similar to the one you'd have sitting in the audience, ideally without many effects. I feel a big difference is that you can now record esp. orchestras with more sensitive microphones/pre-amplification and use the natural reverberation of whatever hall you're recording in better.
I enjoy your page very much. Interesting, educational and delivered in attractive form👍
You are doing a great service, man! I absolutely love this video! When I listen to it, I get back my faith in humanity, and sincerely believe that we are not here in vain. Keep up this wonderful work, please!👍❤️
Great videos. I look forward to exploring them all. What seems clear is that performance practice changes relatively quickly in some ways. Makes deducing anything about really early practice quite tricky I guess.
Elam, i just found this 5 year old video, delightful. May I share a comment of Juliette Goldschwartz, my harpsichord teacher in the Mexico City Conservatory of Music, who was a pupil of Landowska. Once that I was playing a Bach piece too fast, probably a little prelude, she stopped my playing and said the Landowska used to say that in Bach´s time nothing moved too fast, there were “no cars or trains”, so there was no benchmark of presto “as we know it today” (in the 40s!) so we should play at a slower pace. I was fascinated with Wanda´s anecdotes very best.
Muito obrigado por este vídeo excelente e muito inspirador. O vosso canal é maravilhoso!
I first learned about style evolution when I played some old 78's in Ohio State University's music library around 1965. I always loved Bach's Brandenburg Concertos, so I opened up a dusty album, pulled out a brittle old disk, cued it up, and nearly died: it was slow, lush, romantic, and simply hideous. I grew up with the Chicago Symphony's recordings from the 1950's and still like them, for they were brisk, precise, transparent, and inexhaustibly refreshing. I'm afraid I don't know the year or the artists in the early recordings I heard, but I certainly never forgot them. Perhaps these would be worth looking into.
Love your exposition and all the hostorical recordings! Thank you! Regards from Spain.
This was so interesting to watch. Thanks for sharing it and also for adding the captioning!
Thanks for the great SERVICE to music this channel provides
You have great production values that are just on-point and help so much. Thank You !
This was phenomenal. Blew my mind and helped me grasp so much about music, which I have never studied formally. Thank you, thank you. Please do more of these.
As a person who spends his time researching and listening to early recordings, making them my leading musical resource, I want to compliment you on the great job you have done in this video. In addition to your conclusions, I would like to add that to understand how really music sounded in those times, and how we can revive it back, we must understand that unlike today there were various schools - each with their own emphasise and traditions. more over, we should try to avoid making conclusions from one performer and always should have a broader view. For example, Barbiroli's conducting is very unique to his time and he had a unique musical vision.
Magnificent content indeed, so clear and helpful to understand the researches of musicians committed to romantic music !!!! congratulations
Thank you very much, it's very instructive! It could have been mentioned that the first oboe soloist is of course Leon Goossens, who was always quite different from everybody else! He is able to make his oboe as flexible as a voice; this was rather new.
Your video productions are really exceptional and o course for sharing your profound knowledge !
There is that wonderful "Fauré plays Fauré" video on YT where the composer himself plays his famous pavane - on a reproduction piano, so xou can hear his performance without distortions. Most newer performances take the pavane slow, and in an earnest, almost dragic mood. In contrast, Fauré plays it in a nonchalant, almost casual mood, faster, with the melody desynchronized from the chords and much more declamatory. A perfect example of your observations, @Elam Rotem!
Hillarious hence the comments of some listeners who judged this recording as "inauthentic", when they did not keep in mind the interpreter...
It was a special feature to include popular music on this approach on music interpretation. I think there is a lack of examples of popular music, mass media music and, above all, folk music inside the world of music speculation. Thanks so much for the quality of your videos. They are inspiring. I'm a music language teacher from Brazil, working at University of Rio Grande do Norte Music School.
I'm a total ignorant in what comes to the technicalities of music but I love to learn about them, even when I have to look up the definitions of the terms being used, which I know nothing about yet:-).
I've just learned about your channel from a musician who's a dear web buddy of mine and I'm grateful for his suggestion cause you're incredibly knowledgeable and, as a true sage should be, you're also unpretentious, sharing your incredible knowledge with gracious humbleness and a captivating tone.
Thank you for one more enriching and truly delightful video! Ahava rabah from this Brazilian ben anussim:-)
P.S.: I'd love to see a video by you about Babra Streisand's amazing recording of 1977 album 'Classical Barbra', though, of course, I also loved your appraisal of the iconic Judy Garland singing the unforgettable song Over the Rainbow!
Thank you so much for this utterly wonderful perspective.
Like some others I would be VERY interested in your team's conclusions after listening to vintage piano rolls. There the audio recording distortions would be less of a factor, and playing style would be in focus.
New techniques for transferring them have produced wonders of revelations, so many composers and pianists recording so MANY!! EXPLORE
This sort of material makes me happy to be a teacher and life long student of music.
While it’s an interesting analysis, lot’s of it is to be taken with a grain of salt, because some difference do not come from different historic praxis, but from completely different things. For example the recording technology and instruments might have a huge influence on tone and the way people play.
→ Tchaikovski: Imo very good comparisation. Note that around the 1950s the old german school of conducting (rubato, tempo changes) gets abandoned.
→ Liszt: Note that this piece requires you to arpeggiate lots of the melody notes. Lamond and Arrau try to acheive different things. Lamond slightly arpeggiates even those notes he doesn’t have to, so he can maintain a feeling of continuity, while Arrau tries to do the same by playing the arpeggiated notes rather quickly. Also remember that especially on solo instruments like the piano things like the skill and the school (in this case its the same one) as well as personal taste and mood of the player matter a lot. So you have to be very careful about making statements there.
→ Grieg: See the last point. Especially lightness is also greatly influenced by the recording technique (old records will have more dampening of low frequencies, leading to a very bright, light, clear sound) and the instrument and its intonation.
→ Bizet: You’ve got to be very careful there. The old recording is not a live performance, while the new one is (and from a big hall). This will absolutely change the ways you can express yourself, Supervia would not be able to sing like this in a performance. Especially the things you call declamatory character and the extreme tempo changes are only possible because she doesn’t have project and the group is very close together, thus allowing much more precision (compared to a performance, where singer and orchestra are quite apart, the singer has to move a lot and cannot respond to everything the conductor does). It would be wiser to compare it to an actual studio recording like
ruclips.net/video/NPPzNgBsN6g/видео.htmlm15s
but even then you have to remember that with the older technology the singer had to sing differently to carry through the orchestra than with modern technology.
Lamond doesn't arpeggiate for something so mundane as consistency. He does it to help voice the melodic notes and create illusions of portamento style effects. I'm sure consistency was the last thing on his mind.
@@cziffra1980 I understand what you mean, but that’s not what portamento means. And while I disagree that consistency would have been the last thing on Lamond’s mind (it takes far too much practising to get there), the point is that people are doing some things, because they want to acheive something.
@@TheVoitelI used the phrase "illusions of portamento style effects". I didn't use the singular word at literal face value. Rolled chords are how a pianist can make some degree of emulation of actual portamento, hence the expression. The fact he might have wanted to accomplish something doesn't mean that something was probably something so cold and logical as consistency. Listen to more old recordings and you'll hear at least as much arpeggiation where not a single one is required. It's about sound and projection. Not some artificial worry about conceptual consistency.
@@TheVoitel if anything, it would be more accurate to say that spreading chords is specifically intended to avoid consistency. There's only one way to land together. There are many different ways to fail to do so. Note the variety as opposed to consistency of the speed of the spreads and the varying degrees of displacement. Spreads create more diverse tonal possibilities than always landing together. These simple tonal issues are much more relevant than a concept of consistency that doesn't even show up as terribly consistent.
@@cziffra1980 This Nocturne does not feature a lot of rolled chords, and even if so they wouldn’t be part of the melody? I do not understand how this would acheive the illusion of portamento. But consistency is neighter cold nor logical, and definitely not artificial in the meaning you probably attribute to it (it is artificial in that sense, that it is a nescessity for the making of art, as opposed to just hitting notes).
This is of course something you do not see in a recording, but anyone who plays an instrument would know how much practising it takes to get a consistent, organic and fluent play. Which is quite important, especially in cases like this, where you’re playing a melody along with a bass line and accompaniment. Only if all three of these are consistent in themselves they will be perceived as independent voices.
With your second comment you are confusing *consistency* with *concurrency*. Avoiding concurrency will help you in separating different voices (which is something you’d else have to do by phrasing and voicing which is terribly hard!). Consistency doesn’t mean that you’re playing everything exactly the same way!
By the way one has to remember that this piece is basically a piano solo version of Liszt’s Lied «O lieb, so lang du lieben kannst!». Thus there is one very strong guide of how to phrase this piece, and in my opinion Arrau does a significantly better job in conveying this source. Not only does Lamond make small fermatas before notes that you wouldn’t sing that way, Arrau also has much more development and a tempo that is more cantabile (Lamond is very slow, give this to a singer and he’ll die). The compelling thing about Lamond’s interpretation is just the amount of introspectation and attention he gives to every single fragment of a phrase.
You are such a magnificent master! I bow before you! Great erudite and humble human being that makes things easier for us! All my respects for you great master! I HAVE LEARNED FROM YOU IMMENSELY! THANKS!
When I was a learner musician in the '60's, I knew some older players whose early careers were during the 78rpm era. They said more than once that they couldn't always trust the tempos as the performer was limited by the length of one disc side. Just noticed Shelby Lewis' post below
I did not expect to be so enlightened, even from the first comparison. Thank you!
Great video. Debussy also did some mechanical piano recordings that are very interesting, and the early recordings of Tchaikovsky's violin concerto are most interesting too. This permanent soloist rubato is met in CPE Bach's treatise, the frequent tempo changes in Brossard (on the Chaconne), and so on. I suppose there are many more but those I recall now.
What a great way to make this information so accessible! Thank you so much for your work.
One necessary difference from 78rpm record vs modern recordings was the necessity to keep to the 4 minute time limitations of a single side of a 12" disk. Conductors had to often pick up the pace to achieve completion. This held true for full works such as a Bruckner Symphony which might have required 10 disks with 4 minute per-side segments!
Omg I love this channel 😭 ❣️
By the way, the first version of swan lake is lovely, I love in general how on early recordings the soloists had some sort of bigger liberty to perform
I agree with Shelby Lewis that the time on one side of a 78 rpm record was the reason for haste. Also, the degree of the width of the 78 records changed over time, in the 40's & early 50's more time!
There were 12 inch 78s in the first decade of the 20th century, well before the 1940s or 50s, and they were standardized before that time as well.
Faster tempi could be a function of errors in transcription. The older recordings appear 'adjusted' upwards to A=440, during which process the tempos increased, the rate of vibrato increases, and vowel formants are slightly shifted upward, creating a 'lighter' vocal quality as well. The tempi of old player-piano rolls would be determined at the time of conversion from player-piano to recording medium and need to be considered suspect.
Good point.
There are no piano roll recordings in this video and the tempo difference is clearly more than the may be 0.5% change needed to adjust the pitch to A=440, which I doubt has been done to any of the recordings here at any rate.
There's also the question of the limited time available on a phonograph record. I have certainly, for example, listened to Rachmaninov playing his own piano music on phonograph, which often seems quite fast, but he also cut piano rolls (and, for the more advanced automatic pianos available at the time, speed control could be added). When you hear Raachmaninov's playing on a roll (with added controlled speed), it becomes much less rapid - the roll allows a more extended time-limit to play the piece in. To compare basic tempi, I think it would be important to choose pieces whose length is well under that of the maximum time of the side of a phonograph record.
Fascinating, and most instructive.
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