Ya it’s a fine line, but ultimately I don’t want to sell something to someone that they shouldn’t have bought. It’s way easier on me to sell the right kit to the right person based on their wants and needs. This motor is perfect for some and annoying to others. Thanks!
This video really helped me decide on a CYC Photon. I'm functionally blind (and maybe a bit lazy at 76 years) so speed and performance is not high but quality is. My TT Gran Tourismo is a Bosch system but no one in the Mpls/St. Paul (or Minn. in general) will install after market motor kits except for one, not far from where I live and it's a Photon. It will be installed on my '07 ICE Trice T recumbent trike. The Wife will ride one of them. Thank you, an easy to understand video is much appreciated. After market is still thousands of dollars less than a new e-assist trike.
7:51 I did notice CYC has one to one cables now on their website for the display only under accessories for 10$. Wasn't available when I ordered. I cut my throttle cable off and used marine shrink wrap to cap the end of my two cable harness which worked fine, but the bulky wire splitter would be nice to get rid of. Another thing to add not mentioned in the video is the display is where the Bluetooth connection is, and the app wont work without it.
I have a PHOTON motor and battery on my SCOTT ransom 2019 for 5mths and done 1500 kms no problem what so ever 80% on single tracks up to grade 5 this is by far an excellent conversion kit for a mountain bike and I ride it all the time .
Nice sum up. The yet to seen just goes with innovation and new products. Like any serious enthusiast rider having a backup is an an early adoptor investment into a product that is not designed to be user repaired. The huge huge plus is the universal modular unit it with an array of BB adaptors.
I have the CYC Photon and it is my favorite motor. I love the torque sensor combined with the motor's power potential. So far, no issues. Probably 200 miles on it for recreation. I also have 2 other bikes, one with tsdz2 and the other with bbs02. I enjoy all of them. The tsdz2 bike has been collecting a little more dust lately.
i have a tsdz2 wich i really liked until i broke the torque sensor during a crash. Tried to change the sensor but never got it to work again. I use it with the throttle. I recently tried a radexpand 5 to realize first i don't like the cadence sensing and furthermore how much the bafang hub motor is noisier. How would you compare the noise levels between the tsdz2 vs Photon? I'm thinking about buying a photon since i may be able to swap it between different bikes with different wheels diameters including fat ones.
Hello frag999, you may help me here with my dilemma. I have an Azub trike(Tricon 3x 20") and my tsdz2 still sits in the original box- never enough time to mount it- but the old age hit me (68) and need some push uphill. I'm thinking buying the Photon, for a simple reason: all my batteries are 56V ( 57.8 fully charged) and the tsdz would fry in short time- but the folks from CYC told me that it's safe with 14c batteries up to 58.8V no problem. It al comes to the question which of the 2 would require the less amount of input from my muscles to push it uphill ..Can you adjust the sensitivity of the torque sensor on the screen or App/ phone? How would compare the tsdz to the photon?
My experience is on a hot day if you run more than 750 watts it builds heat to 90C and then throttles to no more than 700. I would not recommend people spend much time examing the tiny display to monitor temps. You will hit a tree. No mention of the lack of end user servicing or how you will be managing the servicing. Which would be good to know. Slap it on unrestricted and do some sustained riding in demanding conditions. You do no one a service by babying it.
Are you saying the Photon does a good job of protecting the motor during times of overheating? If so, that is wonderful to hear yet you mention pegging that puppy on full power and riding the bike with little concern over possible damage. You do no one a service by advocating what under the terms of the limited warranty might be considered abuse. Ride your own ride my friend and I shall do likewise. See you on the trails.
Just got my Photon after waiting 8 weeks, from HK. The price comparison to the BBS02 is not that far off especially with the added features. Its a no brainer to forget the Bafangs. Replaced my Bafang BBS02.The iPhone app is key to making the ‘Mode’ settings changes, Street, Race, and Unlimited. Street Mode gives the best battery range and Unlimited gives the least battery range. While riding, I can change between Street and Race Mode on the fly only with the Phone app, by touching the icon, so cool. The crank torque sensor allows me to control my speed based on how much pressure I apply to the crank, even when in Level 3 Race mode. Torque sensing is better than cadence hub motors simply because pedaling is natural with bionic legs. Levels 1, 2, and 3. If you want to have quick higher speed use Level 3 but, this will reduce your overall battery range. Level 1 gives the best battery range. I got the large screen display so I can see more stats while I ride, like the Motor and Human Watts to allow me to see how much I’m working our or not. Also seeing the Motor and Controller Temperature especially if riding up a 2 mile hill climb.
If the torque sensor is too sensitive or with a cadence sensor it can result in unexpected acceleration when forgetting to reduce the PAS level. With throttle one can experience pure pedalling on the flats where you can pedal with higher intensity and use throttle at 160 chainring RPM on the 17% hills @ 25 km/h. Having ability to recover the muscles more often and pedalling with more intensity can preserve hypertrophy during long distance rides since endurance requires less muscle mass. Torque sensors seem to be better for off road climbing otherwise they feel weird as if the motor is working against the legs.
Had a Haro Escape. Square taper crank came apart 1st ride. 3rd ride(with loc tight) bought cook bros crank set. Cost $$, but never had another problem, think it's the crappy alloy they use.
CYC is coming with the "Proton" motor. Which will be a BBSHD ass kicker. Jon told me that it would do 3000 watts. They are also teaming up with a partner in Austin, Texas to be a "repair/warranty" facility in the near future'; so no shipping hassles on returns. They are also in the process of getting their UL 2849 rating ford the Proton and the B batteries. And seeing if Gates Belts can come up with a belt to handle loads greater than 90Nm.
With all the bad karma towards eBikers and the inevitable legislation coming down the pike we will be lucky if we can ride our eBikes on the road, let alone public lands. Many do fine with a mid-motor having very few Nm and even less watts...yet can still float over the trails with reckless abandon. Do more with less. Spend your money on better suspension instead. See you on the trails.
@@geraldhenrickson7472 90 Nm is scarcely more than just standing on the pedals. Yes the total Nm output can be pretty low for most people but some people are simply taller & use _a lot_ more Nm to achieve the same motion. _Speed_ limitations are fine, but keep the "one size should be enough for everybody" Wattage prissypants stuff to yourself please. It's exclusionist & discriminatory.
Thanks! Great info. I’d like to put the cyc photon on a 2014 alloy Stump jumper full suspension and mount it, sandwiched between the triangle, instead of below the bottom bracket. We do a lot of trails and log hopping and don’t want the motor below the bike. Randy at ReCycled shows a set up with the Cyc X1 stealth gen 3 with the sandwiched motor between the triangle of a Santacruz full suspension. The stump jumper has a lot of space in this area. I just don’t know if there is enough space or distance above bracket for the photon. Maybe the Bafang would be better but I’m leaning toward the cyc. Any ideas? Also, can I buy direct from you or….?
Yes, I am studying it. I have been bicycling now as my only mode of transport for 34 years now, and the Photon may be the way for me, but the price of Bafang motors are more inviting, especially their 750 watt which is decent power, remembering that the cause of the ebike is assisted power, and not to rob me of all my exercise. I still want to make my muscles and bones ache. I wish the Photon had other unlock settings, but it sounds like 2000 watts is it. Perplexing.
After a bit more than two years riding a Bafang midmotor that uses a frame providing a bracketed BB instead of a traditional frame & BB with motor mounted to it, I gotta say that any plans I had to build an ebike by mounting a mid-motor to a traditional frame, are in the garbage now: The stiffness & the lack of alignment headaches, have convinced me that I want all my future ebikes built on an ebike frame with a motor bracket where the BB would usually be.
I got a 2015 fat boy expert that I love and want to convert. You ran outta the super shark batteries lol. What extra spacers should I get when I finally get around to ordering? I know I have to get the 120mm bb. Thank you for all the info over the years. I already decided I will be buying my photon from you.
Johnny, you mentioned the possible overheating problem. Would you recommend or how hard would it be to use a ferrofluid like Grin Tech's statorade to keep the motor cooler?
what motor would you choose for a recumbent trike like an Azub ti-fly x that is hauling a trailer in hilly country and fire roads, probably with a rohloff on the rear?
I agree. Square taper axels never go bad. I ride vintage road bikes that have square taper axels and have been riden thousands of miles zero issues, but my cranks are prosumer quality, like Shimano 600, 105, or Utegra.
Would you think that the Photon is good for a cargo bike conversion? I am weighing this, the stealth, the Bafang, and possibly just buying a Lectric Xpedition to avoid all the hassle (but I think I prefer torque sensing which is why am looking at the cyc motors).
What about availability? Looked on the website and nothing was said about it being in stock or there is some additional 45 day shipment from Hong Kong necessary as usually said by European dealers?
will the photon fit on the happyrun g60 ? The hub motor on the g60 is rather weak. I want more torque and more speed. and i have a bit of ground clearence anxiety as the front up tube doesn't come up at the crank housing .
JNO,the Photon is a great looking and sounding motor but I still love the Bafang BBSHD✌️ JNO, I've got a Giant Trance 2 that has a S shaped downtube "curved" would it be possible to put either the PHOTON or the BBSHD in the triangle "frame"
I've put a little over 200 miles on my X1 Pro since getting it. My only complaint is I wish there were better heat management systems. It needs a fan, or full radiator attached to it to handle alabama heat at full throttle for more than a few minutes
I can't figure out whether the Bafang m620 could possibly overheat, because the 48V battery keeps getting voltage sag long before the case over the controller shows any sign of warmth. On long climbs, it's the ~20Ah battery that's giving out, not the motor or controller...
If the motor heat is trapped inside, can't you just put thermal pads or thermal paste in between the outer shell and motor shell so that the heat can properly transfer to the outer shell and dissipate through the fins? Is CYC doing this going forward?
I wonder how hard, and knowable is unlocking 40 amps, or putting it back at 15 amps. It amazes me to wonder how the 2000 watt motor could only be a little more powerful than Bafang's 1000 watt.
Do you know if the pinout on the 8 pin connector is the same as the Bafang? The 8 pin to 4 pin blue breakout cables that are used in some Bafang light kits might work. If not, it might be possible to DIY a splice. I've got a really nice light kit paired with my BBSHD that even has turn signals. It's just a matter of getting battery +, ground, and brake signal (4th pin not used) hooked into the 8 pin with the right pinout.
The CYC operates at higher rpm than the BBSHD. That's a good thing. My complaint with the BBSHD is that there's not enough gear reduction. Let the revs drop and the power falls off a cliff. The problem with this is that you HAVE TO ghost pedal, hate that.
I thought more gear reduction lowered the rpm, and not raising it. Are you saying the starting rpm is higher with the photon and then the reduction ends up a lower rpm?
@ASLunar: It is normal, in many or most cases, when seeking a warranty decision that you send the questionable part to a manufacturer or distributor for inspection. This does not mean the product cannot be serviced by the end-user. A lack of parts availability, special tools or a lack of knowledge and experience is also not a true serviceability issue. Have you experienced the latter? Please elaborate.
@@rirrid5662 You sent your motor in for repair? What was the issue? Was the cost of the repair covered under the terms of the warranty? Was there a parts availability problem ? What caused the delays you indicated? How long was the turn around time? Let us know what the final outcome was.
Just got my Photon installed, pretty excited for this setup. I'm curious about the noise it makes at low rpm (starting out)... not a grinding noise, but almost a grumbling noise. Any idea if that's normal or anything to worry about?
If it didn't make that noise before mounting, my first suspect would be alignment; double check the motor mounts are square to your BB. Any little misalignment can create a _lot_ of angular force resulting in a clunk as each tooth seats into the chain; likewise any misalignment between the motor & chainring itself (though this shouldn't really happen with the way a CYC mounts; but your frame may vary?)
Is it lower profile than the BBSHD, I mean less visible when installed on the bike ? I feel like Bafang would do well to make a slightly less powerful but lighter and smaller profile motor, this would be popular in the European market.
The Photon is great on my mountain bike for trail riding. Very powerful, but very controlled power. For street riding though, I still prefer my cadence based bbso2 bike.
Shouldn't the torque sensing be safer for streets than cadence sensing due to reduced probability of unexpected lurching when for getting to switch off the motor. With torque sensor one can immediately feel to reduce the pressure on the pedals.
@@uvwuvw-ol3fg When on city streets, you just need power and speed. There is not much need for precision. On narrow single track that I ride my mountain bike on, it tends to be slower, but with rocks, roots, steep inclines, and tight switchbacks that require a very precise level of control. The Photon has been perfect for that kind of riding. Now you can boost the levels up and it works fine on the streets, but I'm not sure how it would hold up to that type of riding long term. Although, it is a well made motor, and I am impressed with it overall and the app.
@@dougkresl7538 Another factor is prevention of ghost pedalling during headwinds to increase the blood circulation in legs as a result of more intense muscle activation. On steep hills cadence sensor orveven throttle might be enough since a lot of energy goes to balancing the bike so it's better to let the motor spin as continuously and as fast as possible in a low gear. Turns out a lot of people already have the CYC Photon despite the long shipping times and ongoing production bottlenecks.
@@dougkresl7538 You need precision when coming to a sudden stop before slow turn and when riding trough barriers, since one will sooner or later forget to reduce the assist level. Agreed, except for inconsistent delivery times. As far as I understand from what they have told me they have run out of brushless outrunner motors now. Was hoping to pull off the usual 8 week timeframe but couldn't.
Johnny, when do you think Bafang will come out with a new motor that exceeds the Bafang Ultra? Say a much lighter one, or same weight that puts out twice as much nominally?
You will need a speed sensor extension, CYC now have them available. Without the extension the speed sensor will not reach any of the wheels on a tadpole trike. A display extension might be needed, the Bafang extension (green plug) works fine.
Well explained Johnny. For almost $1000 and track record of dodge CYC reliablity and turn around time of repair, I will stick with the less expensive and more powerful BBSHD which has brick sh_t house reliability if you ride the bike properly. Thanks for your honest take.
After looking at the hub setups, I decided to come back to the mid drive. Between the Photon, or maybe the Bafang 1000, but if I am going to workout more with the Photon, I will have to go with that. Maybe do the 2000 watts setup, and have that extra power if I ever need it. The bigger wattage should not consume too much more energy I would think if I ride the same as I would with a tamer motor.
I feel you're right that it's better to have the extra Watts & not need them, than to need them & not have them. Going up any real hill at 550W barely achieves a walking speed. (Supporters of the "250W limit" don't seem to realize that legal ebikes just bypass that limit via its poor wording; if that law did what it tries to do, EU ebikes would not give enough assistance up hills to be worth their extra weight.) 2000W won't be as fast as a 50cc scooter anyway. Limiting that 2KW max to ~1KW on trails would be comparable to the max wattage output that legal "250W" ebikes provide up hills (Bosch are ~1100W). On private land (or let's get real, amongst auto traffic), another 1KW on top of that adds less than 10 MPH, even if the speed limiter gets adjusted to allow it. So, no worries you'll become a speed demon. _(Real emotos capable of automotive traffic speeds are typically in the 12KW-20KW range!)_ Anecdotally, the mid-drive Bafang g510\m620 (UART configurable version) has torque sensing & it's been fantastic, once calibrated & tweaked to suit our rider cadence+force output levels (DPC-18 display grants Pedal Assist levels 0-5 Eco & 0-5 Sport; we have 0 set to give 7%, if 0% is desired just turn the bike off!) Out of the box, the torque sensor wasn't calibrated at all, & even after pedal torque calibration the response levels felt like an on\off switch: The m620 is a whopping big motor (available in 60V@30A) that can seriously wreck a drivetrain if it isn't tuned for softer starts (& forget about hub shifters; not one of them is even rated for my weight on the crank, much less my max-pedal force plus a motor). At 48V@30A it's a bit voltage starved & performs much better \ more efficiently at 52V, consuming fewer total Watts for the same output force. Of course, I'm excessively tall & typically haul _lots_ of cargo, so "Your Mileage May Vary", but good lord is it nice to have both torque sensing _and_ plenty of power on tap. If pedaling harder doesn't seem like enough I can bump the assist level from 2 to 3 or 4 & every press upon the pedals becomes super-effective. In lower levels you could almost forget how much it's helping; that's how natural a decent torque sensing setup feels.
I thank you for the feed back, and information. I will be looking into what you mentioned. I keep putting off building my E-Bike, whereas I promised myself to have one by the time I reached 70 back in the 90s, and now I am 72, and the hills are getting harder, but I need the physical exercise to maintain my health, and the extra work now does me good, so I sink into the lowest gear for it, ( which one should always do for hills, or heavy pulls for their safety), and can still get a good burn on my lungs, and heart, and legs. So I do not want power for ease, but only so I can go farther, and pull more if I have to, and just to go a little easier on myself as I get older, if I ever do, as my bike is my gym, and my only form of transportation. I need to investigate that Bafang g510\m620 (UART configurable version), whereas torque sensing appears to be worth getting. The drive train is a big concern to me, and is the last holdout on building my rig, so I need to figure that out. I am sure that some smart builder is going to come up with a truck tough internal 3 speed with big hard gears that can stand up to to the power it transmits from a lot of amps/watts/volts. I have a 9 speed rear set up already, but trouble over getting a strong enough chain. They make E-bike chains for the 7 to 12 speeds, so that may be where I need must start my 9 speed until the big tough internal hub comes down the pike with it's super chain. It is just a fact that the Ebike is a developing technology, and is still working out it's short comings, and I suppose the answer to that is to get the best chain I can, and always always make sure to pack another chain already measured along with a pin pusher for it in my breakdown kit; {1,2,3 }. The broken chain could be put on a handle to serve as a street fighter, to prepare for any possible ever hold up, but I believe it would need a swivel so it could whirly bird from any angle. Of course, just looking rough, and poor helps too, especially when I hang my 10 pound Kryptonite chain from my neck to get a little more upper body workout when I ride. I do not want to be proud, but if a Shaolin priest can protect himself, and teach an evil doer with such as his defenses, then so I also believe I too have a justification, though I am very fearful of ever being proud because of it. It also keeps me on my toes, and prepped for the situation I do all I can to avoid. I suppose I am just a Monkey in the forest. Thank you again. @@prophetzarquon1922
@@davidparker2173 Don't feel bad about not building an ebike in the '90s! The batteries weren't worth their weight\cost back then. I've been waiting since then too; wasn't until just a few years ago that the batteries & larger motor controllers really became cost-effective. I also swear by the Kryptonite chain with micro-U lock. The only bikes I've had stolen since getting that lock, didn't have the lock on them at the time. ;P The m620 uses an ebike-specific frame with motor brackets where a traditional bicycle's bottom-bracket would be. So, like most OEM style midmotors, it requires a frame made to fit it. Frankly, I no longer plan to build any ebikes by mounting motors to non-ebike frames: Having the mounting bracket built into the frame is so much less faff getting it mounted & aligned! Stiffer, too. _Much_ stiffer. I haven't had any trouble with an 11-speed chain on an 11-42t cassette with 40t chainring; except that I constantly double-shift to skip unneeded gears & hit last gear so early it makes my manual 29er seem faster than the 1440W ebike. I am looking to swap to a 46t or 48t chainring on an 11-48t or 11-50t cassette, but I have doubt that a SRAM Eagle NX derailleur can reach that far... Regarding broken chains, the main things that have always seemed to make a difference for me, are _never ever_ *_ever_* _shifting under a load_ & secondly but somehow less-so, that even one time throwing the chain & getting it caught can mean readjusting everything afterward (even the stops) & potentially replacing the chain because now it's stretched/bent. I really _thought_ that an 11-speed chain would break a lot, with my huge legs _and_ a 1440W motor pulling on it (never mind hub-shifters, which aren't even close to such load handling)... but 2 years in, that first chain still passes a caliper test & it sure seems like lateral force is the real enemy. I'm still not convinced that 1x drivetrains are preferable to 2x or 3x if that were available: The drag when the chain leans over to reach the innermost or outermost gears is _so pronounced._ I would never run such a steeply tilted chain on a 2x or 3x. On any 1x I've tried, by the time the final pinion gears are aligned well enough that they impart little enough drag to be useful, the early climbing gears are wayyy out of line, maing _them_ drag so much that shifting to a "harder" gear _doesn't feel any harder!_ I'm not going to go so far as to say that I _hate_ 1x drivetrains just yet, but I will say that I haven't been impressed by the shift range vs drag, of even $3.5K 1x systems. Even a 10-52t cassette wouldn't match the shift range of my old 3x10, & even in perfect config by manufacturer's spec it will always have more drag in the earliest & last gears where minimizing drag matters most. I think the trickiness of knowing _when_ to shift & how much, & the weird half-pedaling technique that makes shifting more reliable, might be the #1 thing that drives people toward every conceivable product purporting to improve shifting; not that any of them really manage to improve on 3x10 drivetrains in more than one respect at a time, but the inconvenience factor of working two shifters at once, has surely cause plenty of people to ruin their chains, & I think that might be why 1x drivetrains have sold so well: Not better, but simpler. Anyway I'm rambling now because I enjoy messaging far too much. Good luck out there!
A lot of what you said went over my head, but I kind of got it. I will just have to eventually go forward, and learn like everybody else the nuances of my own system, trusting in God, and luck. I read that one wants a good 1 to 1 ratio between the front and rear sprocket for decent torque, which you exceed. Being able to reach 11 teeth enables a decent speed, and energy economy. I am just sad you do not have a garage next to mine. From what you told me, you would be extremely helpful, but I should be able to get it when I bear down on the subject. I am glad I have Surly's thick walled chromoly "Long Haul Trucker" frameset for it. So I will start with my 11-42 tooth setup, and my long cage shifter that I have had waiting, and go with the 40 tooth up front. You would not happen to have a beat on the the strongest 9 speed E-chain available would you? Like the Brits like to say, my build is going to be a real "Bobby Dazzler". I will be investigating the mid-drive Bafang g510\m620 (UART configurable version) you told me about. and thank you again for that. Gotta have that torque sensing. Your OK man. @@prophetzarquon1922
@@davidparker2173 KMC is ostensibly a good chain, but I'm still on a Shimano chain right now! One bad incident with a wild cord wrapped up through the derailleur, but no broken/stretched chain yet despite lots of force applied. (Unimpressed with the chain-retention "clutch" on the SRAM Eagle NX derailleur though; it didn't last at all & now I keep it disengaged.)
Can the Photon be run at 60v (67.5v charged)? Everything I'm seeing is 52v max. I pulled my shift sensor years ago on my Cyclone 3K, hated it. I might have liked it if the timing was tunable.
My biggest worry about these/this DYI kit is how the batteries are secured, looks very flimsy for such a realtively 'heavy' thing going off road. Any comments whether this really is an issue?
@@JohnnyNerdOut Thanks, just one more thing: can you simply remove these new cyc batteries (b-series) from the frame to charge, ro you need charge them on the bike / unscrew them?
@@JohnnyNerdOut is the 12 speed chain too narrow to fit the wide sprocket teeth of the 34t cyc chainring since it is not 104bcd compatible like the others? Can you verify fitment? Inquiring minds want to know.
We seldom agree so completely. I believe though that The CYC is not yet ready for prime time. I admittedly only installed three, but two had install issues amd one has been a constant hassle. I have been riding and promoting torque sensing for five years now. I have never seen a need for brake cut-offs. Power dropping off too fast and kicking in too slowly with a shift sensor is something I cannot live with or I would still be pushing Bafang for quiet and reliability. I would also disagree with you on the value of splined cranks. Crank arms come loose. When it happens to a square taper the crank arm is already ruined (it will only get worse). My troubled customer lost a crank bolt on his Photon. No sign of any damage and he didn't even have to walk home (they didn't put crank washers in his kit, but I should not have assumed they knew what they were doing). He has had overheating, Bluetooth and speed sensor errors. CYC and their distributor have be absolutely awesome about accepting responsibility. Down the road, this is going to be the motor to beat. Everyone else has a long way to go to match the quality of machining and such. They just need to iron out some firmware and assembly issues.
@@JohnnyNerdOut Funny thing is the first one I got I think went in fine but one of the two screws that hold the other bracket stripped and the second one wouldn’t go all the way in just like the third one I have now seems like the solid unthreaded in the middle is where it’s hanging up I’m going to try to file it down but then this bike will never be able to reversed.
Same here, since I need more power for what I'm planning to do, the Stealth gen 3 looks like the better choice for me. I really wish he had a dedicated review on the Stealth gen 3 motor tho.
PHOTON is less noisy than STEALTH. Also you do not have that extra ugly chain. BTW. IN PAS mode you do not need those 1500W. I barely reach 500W while commuting.
@@ataksnajpera That's why I said "based on what I'm planning to do" since I won't just be commuting, I will be wheelie-ing with throttle only quite often which requires that power
@@MHH3180 I can agree on that but my style of riding requires more motor power since I will be wheelie-ing with throttle only quite often, I don't wanna rely on a 750W motor getting unlocked to 1.5-2kW and then overheating it to its death
Ideally there would be a switch that one can click to go from cadence to torque sensing. They pave both been around for a long time now, so someone should have implemented it by now. Maybe it’s more difficult then we realize, but whoever does that will be head & shoulders above the rest.
@@ataksnajpera that’s a good point, I understand the function being a a safety issue to save the motor, but I don’t recall cadence hub drives overheating, or shutting down in extreme cold temperatures. The Photon 2 should address these issues, at least for their sake as it is not appealing when you have to all of a sudden pedal a heavier ebike that you paid a big amount to work in the first place.
@@buffalomind6838 This motor won't overheat if you use it in PAS mode (no throttle) in max 750W mode. It only overheats when you are an idiot and unlock it above that value 1000W+. It is basically too small to get rid of that extra heat on time.
@@ataksnajpera I long for the days when a mid drive in the same size can do several thousand watts without overheating. If what you say is true more people should be made aware cause that will only put a bad name on this particular motor.
I looked at a comparable bafang setup, and was within $400 with battery. Ultimately I only really needed about 500w. But the compact nature of the photon, the outrunner motor design, the app features and the torque sensing is what sold me. I think thats what closed the gap for me. Definitely risky based on CYCs relatively new presense in the game, and limited presence in the states. So far so good on my end!!
Do you happen to know the weight difference between the CYC Photon Motor and the Tongsheng TSDZ2? BTW: I'd love it if you did a detailed comparison between these two options, as Photon looks like the natural upgrade from the TSDZ2.
My experience has been shit. Once they got their money they wont respond to help with a technical problem. Stay clear from cyc. They dont care. I bought the cyc gen pro4
Sometimes it’s better to by through a vendor so you get support, pay the same amount and get is shipped faster. I think they are spread too thin as a company to respond quickly to customers.
They took my order and shipped it in 1 day. 1 month, still no response to my email. I have since found out the throttle cable they sent me was bad and fixed myself. They prioritize collecting the money over helping out customers. Anyways. I'm done with them now. And will not recommend them to anyone who asks. Before I bought it, I heard people say they had bad customer service, I just thought they had some bad luck. Looks like theirs some truth to it after all.
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Glad to see a new video from you.
Wow, much respect for a balanced view on the cyc photon given you also want to sell them.
Ya it’s a fine line, but ultimately I don’t want to sell something to someone that they shouldn’t have bought. It’s way easier on me to sell the right kit to the right person based on their wants and needs. This motor is perfect for some and annoying to others. Thanks!
I got mine mounted this week but it has been raining non stop. Can't wait to take it out and ride it!
This video really helped me decide on a CYC Photon. I'm functionally blind (and maybe a bit lazy at 76 years) so speed and performance is not high but quality is. My TT Gran Tourismo is a Bosch system but no one in the Mpls/St. Paul (or Minn. in general) will install after market motor kits except for one, not far from where I live and it's a Photon. It will be installed on my '07 ICE Trice T recumbent trike. The Wife will ride one of them. Thank you, an easy to understand video is much appreciated. After market is still thousands of dollars less than a new e-assist trike.
7:51 I did notice CYC has one to one cables now on their website for the display only under accessories for 10$. Wasn't available when I ordered. I cut my throttle cable off and used marine shrink wrap to cap the end of my two cable harness which worked fine, but the bulky wire splitter would be nice to get rid of. Another thing to add not mentioned in the video is the display is where the Bluetooth connection is, and the app wont work without it.
I have a PHOTON motor and battery on my SCOTT ransom 2019 for 5mths and done 1500 kms no problem what so ever 80% on single tracks up to grade 5 this is by far an excellent conversion kit for a mountain bike and I ride it all the time .
Excellent review thank you, best one I've seen
Excellent video, thanks for the content.
Thankyou so much for this honest evaluation, I think I will stick to the Bafang, mainly due to pricing.
Thanks for the 100 mile review. CYC got their Shiet together.
Awesome video. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I intend to run this on my Specialized Sirius 2.0, your thoughts helped me to make a decision.
Nice sum up. The yet to seen just goes with innovation and new products. Like any serious enthusiast rider having a backup is an an early adoptor investment into a product that is not designed to be user repaired. The huge huge plus is the universal modular unit it with an array of BB adaptors.
Bought my kit a few weeks ago. Still building the bike. Doing a full new build from the frame up. Looking forward to getting it running!
Made any progress?
I have the CYC Photon and it is my favorite motor. I love the torque sensor combined with the motor's power potential. So far, no issues. Probably 200 miles on it for recreation. I also have 2 other bikes, one with tsdz2 and the other with bbs02. I enjoy all of them. The tsdz2 bike has been collecting a little more dust lately.
i have a tsdz2 wich i really liked until i broke the torque sensor during a crash. Tried to change the sensor but never got it to work again. I use it with the throttle. I recently tried a radexpand 5 to realize first i don't like the cadence sensing and furthermore how much the bafang hub motor is noisier. How would you compare the noise levels between the tsdz2 vs Photon? I'm thinking about buying a photon since i may be able to swap it between different bikes with different wheels diameters including fat ones.
Hello frag999, you may help me here with my dilemma. I have an Azub trike(Tricon 3x 20") and my tsdz2 still sits in the original box- never enough time to mount it- but the old age hit me (68) and need some push uphill. I'm thinking buying the Photon, for a simple reason: all my batteries are 56V ( 57.8 fully charged) and the tsdz would fry in short time- but the folks from CYC told me that it's safe with 14c batteries up to 58.8V no problem. It al comes to the question which of the 2 would require the less amount of input from my muscles to push it uphill ..Can you adjust the sensitivity of the torque sensor on the screen or App/ phone? How would compare the tsdz to the photon?
My experience is on a hot day if you run more than 750 watts it builds heat to 90C and then throttles to no more than 700. I would not recommend people spend much time examing the tiny display to monitor temps. You will hit a tree. No mention of the lack of end user servicing or how you will be managing the servicing. Which would be good to know. Slap it on unrestricted and do some sustained riding in demanding conditions. You do no one a service by babying it.
Are you saying the Photon does a good job of protecting the motor during times of overheating? If so, that is wonderful to hear yet you mention pegging that puppy on full power and riding the bike with little concern over possible damage. You do no one a service by advocating what under the terms of the limited warranty might be considered abuse. Ride your own ride my friend and I shall do likewise. See you on the trails.
Just got my Photon after waiting 8 weeks, from HK. The price comparison to the BBS02 is not that far off especially with the added features. Its a no brainer to forget the Bafangs. Replaced my Bafang BBS02.The iPhone app is key to making the ‘Mode’ settings changes, Street, Race, and Unlimited.
Street Mode gives the best battery range and Unlimited gives the least battery range.
While riding, I can change between Street and Race Mode on the fly only with the Phone app, by touching the icon, so cool.
The crank torque sensor allows me to control my speed based on how much pressure I apply to the crank, even when in Level 3 Race mode. Torque sensing is better than cadence hub motors simply because pedaling is natural with bionic legs.
Levels 1, 2, and 3. If you want to have quick higher speed use Level 3 but, this will reduce your overall battery range. Level 1 gives the best battery range.
I got the large screen display so I can see more stats while I ride, like the Motor and Human Watts to allow me to see how much I’m working our or not. Also seeing the Motor and Controller Temperature especially if riding up a 2 mile hill climb.
If the torque sensor is too sensitive or with a cadence sensor it can result in unexpected acceleration when forgetting to reduce the PAS level. With throttle one can experience pure pedalling on the flats where you can pedal with higher intensity and use throttle at 160 chainring RPM on the 17% hills @ 25 km/h. Having ability to recover the muscles more often and pedalling with more intensity can preserve hypertrophy during long distance rides since endurance requires less muscle mass. Torque sensors seem to be better for off road climbing otherwise they feel weird as if the motor is working against the legs.
Had a Haro Escape. Square taper crank came apart 1st ride. 3rd ride(with loc tight) bought cook bros crank set. Cost $$, but never had another problem, think it's the crappy alloy they use.
CYC is coming with the "Proton" motor. Which will be a BBSHD ass kicker. Jon told me that it would do 3000 watts. They are also teaming up with a partner in Austin, Texas to be a "repair/warranty" facility in the near future'; so no shipping hassles on returns. They are also in the process of getting their UL 2849 rating ford the Proton and the B batteries. And seeing if Gates Belts can come up with a belt to handle loads greater than 90Nm.
With all the bad karma towards eBikers and the inevitable legislation coming down the pike we will be lucky if we can ride our eBikes on the road, let alone public lands. Many do fine with a mid-motor having very few Nm and even less watts...yet can still float over the trails with reckless abandon. Do more with less. Spend your money on better suspension instead. See you on the trails.
@@geraldhenrickson7472 90 Nm is scarcely more than just standing on the pedals. Yes the total Nm output can be pretty low for most people but some people are simply taller & use _a lot_ more Nm to achieve the same motion. _Speed_ limitations are fine, but keep the "one size should be enough for everybody" Wattage prissypants stuff to yourself please. It's exclusionist & discriminatory.
Nice, thank you! Installing on a cargo bike, so we shall see.
Thanks! Great info. I’d like to put the cyc photon on a 2014 alloy Stump jumper full suspension and mount it, sandwiched between the triangle, instead of below the bottom bracket. We do a lot of trails and log hopping and don’t want the motor below the bike. Randy at ReCycled shows a set up with the Cyc X1 stealth gen 3 with the sandwiched motor between the triangle of a Santacruz full suspension. The stump jumper has a lot of space in this area. I just don’t know if there is enough space or distance above bracket for the photon. Maybe the Bafang would be better but I’m leaning toward the cyc. Any ideas? Also, can I buy direct from you or….?
Yes, I am studying it. I have been bicycling now as my only mode of transport for 34 years now, and the Photon may be the way for me, but the price of Bafang motors are more inviting, especially their 750 watt which is decent power, remembering that the cause of the ebike is assisted power, and not to rob me of all my exercise. I still want to make my muscles and bones ache. I wish the Photon had other unlock settings, but it sounds like 2000 watts is it. Perplexing.
After a bit more than two years riding a Bafang midmotor that uses a frame providing a bracketed BB instead of a traditional frame & BB with motor mounted to it, I gotta say that any plans I had to build an ebike by mounting a mid-motor to a traditional frame, are in the garbage now: The stiffness & the lack of alignment headaches, have convinced me that I want all my future ebikes built on an ebike frame with a motor bracket where the BB would usually be.
I got a 2015 fat boy expert that I love and want to convert. You ran outta the super shark batteries lol. What extra spacers should I get when I finally get around to ordering? I know I have to get the 120mm bb. Thank you for all the info over the years. I already decided I will be buying my photon from you.
Johnny, you mentioned the possible overheating problem. Would you recommend or how hard would it be to use a ferrofluid like Grin Tech's statorade to keep the motor cooler?
what motor would you choose for a recumbent trike like an Azub ti-fly x that is hauling a trailer in hilly country and fire roads, probably with a rohloff on the rear?
Square taper can round out if you don't make sure the crank bolts are tight. Otherwise they've been used for many years without problems.
I agree. Square taper axels never go bad. I ride vintage road bikes that have square taper axels and have been riden thousands of miles zero issues, but my cranks are prosumer quality, like Shimano 600, 105, or Utegra.
The loosening of crank bolts has been an issue for the 50 years I have been riding. You are right...keep them crank bolts tight. Viva JIS!
Would you think that the Photon is good for a cargo bike conversion?
I am weighing this, the stealth, the Bafang, and possibly just buying a Lectric Xpedition to avoid all the hassle (but I think I prefer torque sensing which is why am looking at the cyc motors).
What about availability? Looked on the website and nothing was said about it being in stock or there is some additional 45 day shipment from Hong Kong necessary as usually said by European dealers?
You seen the new combined pinion gearbox motor?
will the photon fit on the happyrun g60 ? The hub motor on the g60 is rather weak. I want more torque and more speed. and i have a bit of ground clearence anxiety as the front up tube doesn't come up at the crank housing .
Is there a reason why you removed the cyclone 3000 single chain from your website lineup?
JNO,the Photon is a great looking and sounding motor but I still love the Bafang BBSHD✌️
JNO, I've got a
Giant Trance 2 that has a S shaped downtube "curved" would it be possible to put either the PHOTON or the BBSHD in the triangle "frame"
Great review for us layman’s
I've put a little over 200 miles on my X1 Pro since getting it. My only complaint is I wish there were better heat management systems. It needs a fan, or full radiator attached to it to handle alabama heat at full throttle for more than a few minutes
I can't figure out whether the Bafang m620 could possibly overheat, because the 48V battery keeps getting voltage sag long before the case over the controller shows any sign of warmth. On long climbs, it's the ~20Ah battery that's giving out, not the motor or controller...
If the motor heat is trapped inside, can't you just put thermal pads or thermal paste in between the outer shell and motor shell so that the heat can properly transfer to the outer shell and dissipate through the fins? Is CYC doing this going forward?
I would like to see your app settings please. 😊
Do you plan checking and making review of Toseven DM01 and DM02 soon? They seem very promising, with Torque sensing but lower price point than CYC.
7:40 Will there be beltdrive conversions?
I thought it had both torque sensing AND cadence sensing?
I love to see you put one on the Walmart Ozark Trail $400 “real” mountain bike.
I did put the bafang bbshd1000 on the Ozark ridge MTB yesterday it's a beast 68lbs total weight
Hey Nerdballs why not make a video on a bbs02 tear down and overhaul mine is getting a bit tired....lets mix it up🤟
I wonder how hard, and knowable is unlocking 40 amps, or putting it back at 15 amps. It amazes me to wonder how the 2000 watt motor could only be a little more powerful than Bafang's 1000 watt.
Do you know if the pinout on the 8 pin connector is the same as the Bafang? The 8 pin to 4 pin blue breakout cables that are used in some Bafang light kits might work. If not, it might be possible to DIY a splice. I've got a really nice light kit paired with my BBSHD that even has turn signals. It's just a matter of getting battery +, ground, and brake signal (4th pin not used) hooked into the 8 pin with the right pinout.
It’s not the same same pin out as the bbsxx ☹️
The CYC operates at higher rpm than the BBSHD. That's a good thing. My complaint with the BBSHD is that there's not enough gear reduction. Let the revs drop and the power falls off a cliff.
The problem with this is that you HAVE TO ghost pedal, hate that.
The Photon runs in practice slightly slower than the bbshd. 3000 rpms on the flat under throttle. The BBSHD peaks at 3500 ish stock.
@@HighVoltageKits I thought you said the opposite in the vid.
@@georgekrpan3181 I think he was referring to the other CYC models , not the Photon.
@@geraldhenrickson7472 Cheers!
I thought more gear reduction lowered the rpm, and not raising it. Are you saying the starting rpm is higher with the photon and then the reduction ends up a lower rpm?
Don't forget that the Photon is not user serviceable. If something goes wrong or it breaks, you have to ship the whole motor back to them.
And they take forever. If they can sort this out though..
Good point.
@ASLunar: It is normal, in many or most cases, when seeking a warranty decision that you send the questionable part to a manufacturer or distributor for inspection. This does not mean the product cannot be serviced by the end-user. A lack of parts availability, special tools or a lack of knowledge and experience is also not a true serviceability issue. Have you experienced the latter? Please elaborate.
@@rirrid5662 You sent your motor in for repair? What was the issue? Was the cost of the repair covered under the terms of the warranty? Was there a parts availability problem ? What caused the delays you indicated? How long was the turn around time? Let us know what the final outcome was.
Just got my Photon installed, pretty excited for this setup. I'm curious about the noise it makes at low rpm (starting out)... not a grinding noise, but almost a grumbling noise. Any idea if that's normal or anything to worry about?
If it didn't make that noise before mounting, my first suspect would be alignment; double check the motor mounts are square to your BB. Any little misalignment can create a _lot_ of angular force resulting in a clunk as each tooth seats into the chain; likewise any misalignment between the motor & chainring itself (though this shouldn't really happen with the way a CYC mounts; but your frame may vary?)
Is it lower profile than the BBSHD, I mean less visible when installed on the bike ? I feel like Bafang would do well to make a slightly less powerful but lighter and smaller profile motor, this would be popular in the European market.
It is a little bit smaller, yes.
The Photon is great on my mountain bike for trail riding. Very powerful, but very controlled power. For street riding though, I still prefer my cadence based bbso2 bike.
Shouldn't the torque sensing be safer for streets than cadence sensing due to reduced probability of unexpected lurching when for getting to switch off the motor. With torque sensor one can immediately feel to reduce the pressure on the pedals.
@@uvwuvw-ol3fg When on city streets, you just need power and speed. There is not much need for precision. On narrow single track that I ride my mountain bike on, it tends to be slower, but with rocks, roots, steep inclines, and tight switchbacks that require a very precise level of control. The Photon has been perfect for that kind of riding. Now you can boost the levels up and it works fine on the streets, but I'm not sure how it would hold up to that type of riding long term. Although, it is a well made motor, and I am impressed with it overall and the app.
@@dougkresl7538 Another factor is prevention of ghost pedalling during headwinds to increase the blood circulation in legs as a result of more intense muscle activation. On steep hills cadence sensor orveven throttle might be enough since a lot of energy goes to balancing the bike so it's better to let the motor spin as continuously and as fast as possible in a low gear. Turns out a lot of people already have the CYC Photon despite the long shipping times and ongoing production bottlenecks.
@@dougkresl7538 Great distinction. Makes sense.
@@dougkresl7538 You need precision when coming to a sudden stop before slow turn and when riding trough barriers, since one will sooner or later forget to reduce the assist level.
Agreed, except for inconsistent delivery times. As far as I understand from what they have told me they have run out of brushless outrunner motors now. Was hoping to pull off the usual 8 week timeframe but couldn't.
One thing I’m starting to want is a double battery system, how will this work with 2 batts?
Get a combiner. I sell them on my site for about $50
Johnny, when do you think Bafang will come out with a new motor that exceeds the Bafang Ultra? Say a much lighter one, or same weight that puts out twice as much nominally?
I think bafang is now focused on custom ebike frame mid drives and not 68/73 stuff.
How about cable lengths for Catrike recumbent trikes? What is the source for extensions if needed?
You will need a speed sensor extension, CYC now have them available. Without the extension the speed sensor will not reach any of the wheels on a tadpole trike. A display extension might be needed, the Bafang extension (green plug) works fine.
CYC offers a cable for that. It was really reasonably priced. I got the impression you should add it to the order when initially getting your Photon.
Well explained Johnny. For almost $1000 and track record of dodge CYC reliablity and turn around time of repair, I will stick with the less expensive and more powerful BBSHD which has brick sh_t house reliability if you ride the bike properly.
Thanks for your honest take.
After looking at the hub setups, I decided to come back to the mid drive. Between the Photon, or maybe the Bafang 1000, but if I am going to workout more with the Photon, I will have to go with that. Maybe do the 2000 watts setup, and have that extra power if I ever need it. The bigger wattage should not consume too much more energy I would think if I ride the same as I would with a tamer motor.
I feel you're right that it's better to have the extra Watts & not need them, than to need them & not have them. Going up any real hill at 550W barely achieves a walking speed. (Supporters of the "250W limit" don't seem to realize that legal ebikes just bypass that limit via its poor wording; if that law did what it tries to do, EU ebikes would not give enough assistance up hills to be worth their extra weight.)
2000W won't be as fast as a 50cc scooter anyway. Limiting that 2KW max to ~1KW on trails would be comparable to the max wattage output that legal "250W" ebikes provide up hills (Bosch are ~1100W). On private land (or let's get real, amongst auto traffic), another 1KW on top of that adds less than 10 MPH, even if the speed limiter gets adjusted to allow it.
So, no worries you'll become a speed demon. _(Real emotos capable of automotive traffic speeds are typically in the 12KW-20KW range!)_
Anecdotally, the mid-drive Bafang g510\m620 (UART configurable version) has torque sensing & it's been fantastic, once calibrated & tweaked to suit our rider cadence+force output levels (DPC-18 display grants Pedal Assist levels 0-5 Eco & 0-5 Sport; we have 0 set to give 7%, if 0% is desired just turn the bike off!)
Out of the box, the torque sensor wasn't calibrated at all, & even after pedal torque calibration the response levels felt like an on\off switch: The m620 is a whopping big motor (available in 60V@30A) that can seriously wreck a drivetrain if it isn't tuned for softer starts (& forget about hub shifters; not one of them is even rated for my weight on the crank, much less my max-pedal force plus a motor). At 48V@30A it's a bit voltage starved & performs much better \ more efficiently at 52V, consuming fewer total Watts for the same output force.
Of course, I'm excessively tall & typically haul _lots_ of cargo, so "Your Mileage May Vary", but good lord is it nice to have both torque sensing _and_ plenty of power on tap. If pedaling harder doesn't seem like enough I can bump the assist level from 2 to 3 or 4 & every press upon the pedals becomes super-effective. In lower levels you could almost forget how much it's helping; that's how natural a decent torque sensing setup feels.
I thank you for the feed back, and information. I will be looking into what you mentioned. I keep putting off building my E-Bike, whereas I promised myself to have one by the time I reached 70 back in the 90s, and now I am 72, and the hills are getting harder, but I need the physical exercise to maintain my health, and the extra work now does me good, so I sink into the lowest gear for it, ( which one should always do for hills, or heavy pulls for their safety), and can still get a good burn on my lungs, and heart, and legs. So I do not want power for ease, but only so I can go farther, and pull more if I have to, and just to go a little easier on myself as I get older, if I ever do, as my bike is my gym, and my only form of transportation.
I need to investigate that Bafang g510\m620 (UART configurable version), whereas torque sensing appears to be worth getting. The drive train is a big concern to me, and is the last holdout on building my rig, so I need to figure that out. I am sure that some smart builder is going to come up with a truck tough internal 3 speed with big hard gears that can stand up to to the power it transmits from a lot of amps/watts/volts. I have a 9 speed rear set up already, but trouble over getting a strong enough chain. They make E-bike chains for the 7 to 12 speeds, so that may be where I need must start my 9 speed until the big tough internal hub comes down the pike with it's super chain.
It is just a fact that the Ebike is a developing technology, and is still working out it's short comings, and I suppose the answer to that is to get the best chain I can, and always always make sure to pack another chain already measured along with a pin pusher for it in my breakdown kit; {1,2,3 }.
The broken chain could be put on a handle to serve as a street fighter, to prepare for any possible ever hold up, but I believe it would need a swivel so it could whirly bird from any angle. Of course, just looking rough, and poor helps too, especially when I hang my 10 pound Kryptonite chain from my neck to get a little more upper body workout when I ride. I do not want to be proud, but if a Shaolin priest can protect himself, and teach an evil doer with such as his defenses, then so I also believe I too have a justification, though I am very fearful of ever being proud because of it. It also keeps me on my toes, and prepped for the situation I do all I can to avoid. I suppose I am just a Monkey in the forest. Thank you again. @@prophetzarquon1922
@@davidparker2173 Don't feel bad about not building an ebike in the '90s! The batteries weren't worth their weight\cost back then. I've been waiting since then too; wasn't until just a few years ago that the batteries & larger motor controllers really became cost-effective.
I also swear by the Kryptonite chain with micro-U lock. The only bikes I've had stolen since getting that lock, didn't have the lock on them at the time. ;P
The m620 uses an ebike-specific frame with motor brackets where a traditional bicycle's bottom-bracket would be. So, like most OEM style midmotors, it requires a frame made to fit it. Frankly, I no longer plan to build any ebikes by mounting motors to non-ebike frames: Having the mounting bracket built into the frame is so much less faff getting it mounted & aligned! Stiffer, too. _Much_ stiffer.
I haven't had any trouble with an 11-speed chain on an 11-42t cassette with 40t chainring; except that I constantly double-shift to skip unneeded gears & hit last gear so early it makes my manual 29er seem faster than the 1440W ebike. I am looking to swap to a 46t or 48t chainring on an 11-48t or 11-50t cassette, but I have doubt that a SRAM Eagle NX derailleur can reach that far...
Regarding broken chains, the main things that have always seemed to make a difference for me, are _never ever_ *_ever_* _shifting under a load_ & secondly but somehow less-so, that even one time throwing the chain & getting it caught can mean readjusting everything afterward (even the stops) & potentially replacing the chain because now it's stretched/bent.
I really _thought_ that an 11-speed chain would break a lot, with my huge legs _and_ a 1440W motor pulling on it (never mind hub-shifters, which aren't even close to such load handling)... but 2 years in, that first chain still passes a caliper test & it sure seems like lateral force is the real enemy.
I'm still not convinced that 1x drivetrains are preferable to 2x or 3x if that were available: The drag when the chain leans over to reach the innermost or outermost gears is _so pronounced._ I would never run such a steeply tilted chain on a 2x or 3x. On any 1x I've tried, by the time the final pinion gears are aligned well enough that they impart little enough drag to be useful, the early climbing gears are wayyy out of line, maing _them_ drag so much that shifting to a "harder" gear _doesn't feel any harder!_ I'm not going to go so far as to say that I _hate_ 1x drivetrains just yet, but I will say that I haven't been impressed by the shift range vs drag, of even $3.5K 1x systems. Even a 10-52t cassette wouldn't match the shift range of my old 3x10, & even in perfect config by manufacturer's spec it will always have more drag in the earliest & last gears where minimizing drag matters most.
I think the trickiness of knowing _when_ to shift & how much, & the weird half-pedaling technique that makes shifting more reliable, might be the #1 thing that drives people toward every conceivable product purporting to improve shifting; not that any of them really manage to improve on 3x10 drivetrains in more than one respect at a time, but the inconvenience factor of working two shifters at once, has surely cause plenty of people to ruin their chains, & I think that might be why 1x drivetrains have sold so well: Not better, but simpler.
Anyway I'm rambling now because I enjoy messaging far too much. Good luck out there!
A lot of what you said went over my head, but I kind of got it. I will just have to eventually go forward, and learn like everybody else the nuances of my own system, trusting in God, and luck. I read that one wants a good 1 to 1 ratio between the front and rear sprocket for decent torque, which you exceed. Being able to reach 11 teeth enables a decent speed, and energy economy. I am just sad you do not have a garage next to mine. From what you told me, you would be extremely helpful, but I should be able to get it when I bear down on the subject. I am glad I have Surly's thick walled chromoly "Long Haul Trucker" frameset for it. So I will start with my 11-42 tooth setup, and my long cage shifter that I have had waiting, and go with the 40 tooth up front. You would not happen to have a beat on the the strongest 9 speed E-chain available would you? Like the Brits like to say, my build is going to be a real "Bobby Dazzler". I will be investigating the mid-drive Bafang g510\m620 (UART configurable version) you told me about. and thank you again for that. Gotta have that torque sensing. Your OK man. @@prophetzarquon1922
@@davidparker2173 KMC is ostensibly a good chain, but I'm still on a Shimano chain right now! One bad incident with a wild cord wrapped up through the derailleur, but no broken/stretched chain yet despite lots of force applied.
(Unimpressed with the chain-retention "clutch" on the SRAM Eagle NX derailleur though; it didn't last at all & now I keep it disengaged.)
Can the Photon be run at 60v (67.5v charged)? Everything I'm seeing is 52v max.
I pulled my shift sensor years ago on my Cyclone 3K, hated it. I might have liked it if the timing was tunable.
52v max (58.8v) 🥲
No. Dont try it. Things will likely go "pop".
John I love my BBSHD greased it when new it’s super quiet I believe it may say it’s more powerful but think it’s like 140nm
My biggest worry about these/this DYI kit is how the batteries are secured, looks very flimsy for such a realtively 'heavy' thing going off road. Any comments whether this really is an issue?
Not in my experience, at least with the batteries I carry.
@@JohnnyNerdOut Thanks, just one more thing: can you simply remove these new cyc batteries (b-series) from the frame to charge, ro you need charge them on the bike / unscrew them?
Is the Photon compatible with modern 12-speed hardtails such as the Specialized Fuse? I have had mixed answers on this inquiry. Thanks!
I don’t see why it wouldn’t. Chainline? Not sure why it would be incompatible….
@@JohnnyNerdOut is the 12 speed chain too narrow to fit the wide sprocket teeth of the 34t cyc chainring since it is not 104bcd compatible like the others?
Can you verify fitment? Inquiring minds want to know.
We seldom agree so completely. I believe though that The CYC is not yet ready for prime time. I admittedly only installed three, but two had install issues amd one has been a constant hassle.
I have been riding and promoting torque sensing for five years now. I have never seen a need for brake cut-offs. Power dropping off too fast and kicking in too slowly with a shift sensor is something I cannot live with or I would still be pushing Bafang for quiet and reliability. I would also disagree with you on the value of splined cranks. Crank arms come loose. When it happens to a square taper the crank arm is already ruined (it will only get worse). My troubled customer lost a crank bolt on his Photon. No sign of any damage and he didn't even have to walk home (they didn't put crank washers in his kit, but I should not have assumed they knew what they were doing). He has had overheating, Bluetooth and speed sensor errors. CYC and their distributor have be absolutely awesome about accepting responsibility. Down the road, this is going to be the motor to beat. Everyone else has a long way to go to match the quality of machining and such. They just need to iron out some firmware and assembly issues.
I have a 2021 Trek FX3 Disc I have been sent three motors that won’t fit in my 68 BB. Have you had that issue in any of your installs?
Strange. I’ve converted that bike just fine. What is causing it to not fit exactly?
@@JohnnyNerdOut Funny thing is the first one I got I think went in fine but one of the two screws that hold the other bracket stripped and the second one wouldn’t go all the way in just like the third one I have now seems like the solid unthreaded in the middle is where it’s hanging up I’m going to try to file it down but then this bike will never be able to reversed.
Wish I was certain about if the first one went all the way in but can’t remember for sure. I was just dry fitting it.
The part that screws in from the other side hangs up in the middle as well
Do you plan on coming out with a reliability update?
It’s good now 😀
Do you think adding a bbshd to a 52v 750w geared hub with a single speed is doable?
I’ve done it 😀
@@JohnnyNerdOut nice thank you!
7:54 I'd like a one to one cable and be able to remove the throttle on mine.
I just cut them off and seal with shrink wrap on my TSDZ2's, bit have not done so on my Photon installs yet (2 recbemt trikes and an off road bike).
Good news, CYC has now one for sale.
I been doubting between the photon and the Stealth gen 3, still haven't quite made up my mind.
Same here, since I need more power for what I'm planning to do, the Stealth gen 3 looks like the better choice for me. I really wish he had a dedicated review on the Stealth gen 3 motor tho.
PHOTON is less noisy than STEALTH. Also you do not have that extra ugly chain. BTW. IN PAS mode you do not need those 1500W. I barely reach 500W while commuting.
The Gen 3 is both noisey and very obviously illegally in most places and they are getting more and more strict about compliance.
@@ataksnajpera That's why I said "based on what I'm planning to do" since I won't just be commuting, I will be wheelie-ing with throttle only quite often which requires that power
@@MHH3180 I can agree on that but my style of riding requires more motor power since I will be wheelie-ing with throttle only quite often, I don't wanna rely on a 750W motor getting unlocked to 1.5-2kW and then overheating it to its death
0:54 Did you really mean to say 2,000 watts? I've seen other places that the unlocked power was 1,200 watts.
40 amps
Its up to 2000watts unlocked, totally dependent on your battery. In my case, 20ah 52v/30amps=1500 watts.
Ideally there would be a switch that one can click to go from cadence to torque sensing. They pave both been around for a long time now, so someone should have implemented it by now. Maybe it’s more difficult then we realize, but whoever does that will be head & shoulders above the rest.
What is the point of spending ~1000usd for motor and the disabling torque sensor?
@@ataksnajpera that’s a good point, I understand the function being a a safety issue to save the motor, but I don’t recall cadence hub drives overheating, or shutting down in extreme cold temperatures. The Photon 2 should address these issues, at least for their sake as it is not appealing when you have to all of a sudden pedal a heavier ebike that you paid a big amount to work in the first place.
@@buffalomind6838 This motor won't overheat if you use it in PAS mode (no throttle) in max 750W mode. It only overheats when you are an idiot and unlock it above that value 1000W+. It is basically too small to get rid of that extra heat on time.
@@ataksnajpera I long for the days when a mid drive in the same size can do several thousand watts without overheating. If what you say is true more people should be made aware cause that will only put a bad name on this particular motor.
Why would you want that? Just go for torque sensing and ride like the wind. Keep it simple.
So 100 miles? That’s like 2 rides how about 1,000 or 10,000?
i like it! till i saw the price of $1000. ouch
Ya, you can get two Bafang mid drives and still have enough left to go on a nice date.
I looked at a comparable bafang setup, and was within $400 with battery. Ultimately I only really needed about 500w. But the compact nature of the photon, the outrunner motor design, the app features and the torque sensing is what sold me. I think thats what closed the gap for me. Definitely risky based on CYCs relatively new presense in the game, and limited presence in the states. So far so good on my end!!
Do you happen to know the weight difference between the CYC Photon Motor and the Tongsheng TSDZ2?
BTW: I'd love it if you did a detailed comparison between these two options, as Photon looks like the natural upgrade from the TSDZ2.
My experience has been shit. Once they got their money they wont respond to help with a technical problem. Stay clear from cyc. They dont care. I bought the cyc gen pro4
Sometimes it’s better to by through a vendor so you get support, pay the same amount and get is shipped faster. I think they are spread too thin as a company to respond quickly to customers.
They took my order and shipped it in 1 day. 1 month, still no response to my email. I have since found out the throttle cable they sent me was bad and fixed myself. They prioritize collecting the money over helping out customers. Anyways. I'm done with them now. And will not recommend them to anyone who asks. Before I bought it, I heard people say they had bad customer service, I just thought they had some bad luck. Looks like theirs some truth to it after all.
I like things that DO WHAT I TELL THEM TO DO , not things that tell me wot to do .
Too much technical language when discussing torque vs cadence. Lol