Hi Pierre, Cooper here... I think a lot of things you got right about the differences, but I did notice a few things that you might have missed. Having said that, I never had the opportunity to study with de Lancie himself but I saw a handful of his reeds from David who explained every detail of them. I did sit at the desk of David Weber for 3 years when I lived in Chandler. My wife was the office assistant there (would pack up orders, answer phones etc) and I would go pick her up every day, usually stopping by and talking with David for 15 mins... which would extend for an hour until it was dinner time. Some days I spent 12-15 hours in his shop watching him repad an instrument, pin a crack, or heaven forbid, fix a gouging machine which he hated... I'll never forget asking him if I could buy a graf blade for him and he put me in the car, drove me to the hardware store where we bought steel strips, sand paper, drill bits, a blow torch, and motor oil (for oil quenching). Some 20 hours later I had 15 new graf blades and blisters all over all 10 fingers. The biggest thing you talk about is the taper, and while this is true about the tip (tapering all the way to the end), it is also true for the heart, as well as the windows. David said the Philadelphia style had to taper to the middle of the heart, and then back down to the thinnest place in the windows and back up. No hard ledges or lines, just one constant hourglass shape. Based upon your video, it seems like the thinnest place on your reed is about the middle of the window. David always taught the thinnest place was just behind the heart, otherwise the top 1/3rd of the window and taper back up to the bark. Another thing was that the tip and the heart always tapered from side to side. The scrape of the side of the heart was thinner than the middle, and so it almost had a complete dome shape (not visably domed, but if you measured it with a micrometer the side next to the rail was much thinner than the middle and channels). This concept of the heart was much different from Mack who actually referred to the heart often as the "plateau" implying that it was basically parallel from a side view from the back of the heart to the front. The effect of this is obviously adding more resistance to the reed to blow against (something you talk about when you mention his strong airstream). The windows were always somewhat parallel in the lowest places. With the tip being parallel, heart being parallel and windows being parallel, this created a purportionally thicker and more stable heart to blow against, which you describe. The final big thing that isn't mentioned is the overlap. de Lancie and Mack both used the overlap but in different ways. de Lancie would scrape both the left and right sides of the reed differently, so that the left side rail and window would kind of collapse into the overlap, thus creating tighter sides and a more focused sound. This is why the double radius was so important obviously because it was strong enough to hold up. There's more I could mention, but everything you say makes sense to me. More pieces to the puzzle to see the overall picture.
This was a very interesting video. It also reminds me of your fork in the road video. My first teacher was Jay Light, who was just graduating from Curtis and he taught me how to make his reeds. DeLancie never taught reed making, although he would comment on them and maybe fix them. Students were expected to teach each other. Jay first roomed with Jim Caldwell, so that’s where he learned. Your reed is very close, but we all had to buy a DeLancie shape from Cas(he worked for Moennig) which is very wide, but we played shorter reeds, 68mm. DeLancie would stop you in the middle of a lesson and make you play a long tone on low d. God forbid he heard an attack. That’s how responsive they were. When Jay left I started studying with a Tabuteau student who lived near me. He didn’t want to teach but Moennig convinced him to listen to me and he became a great friend and a wonderful teacher. He graduated in 1938 and played the style Tabuteau did at that time. There are good examples in Ledet’s book. DeLancie lived with him his first year and they were always good friends. He offered the assistant principal job to him in 1957, but he turned it down. Didn’t pay enough. His tips were just like the DeLancie style you showed. Thinner heart, but blended right into the tip. Very vibrant and responsive. He called it a ringing sound. A much fuller sound than Jay’s. I was just getting out of high school when Woodhams was in Curtis and we used to gig a lot together. His reeds were typical DeLancie reeds. We’ve been friends for many years and when he was playing in Philadelphia we would get together to play and try instruments. His reeds weren’t much different. A thinner shape and 69 to 70. Very easy to play. Again, heart blended into tip exactly as you showed. I had friends who studied with Mack and their reeds were exactly as you described them. Responsive, but you really had to move air through them, but they weren’t flexible. They play with one sound and that was it. I remember their tips being exactly as you showed. They could never figure out why mine were so effortless. And I can always play a low d with no attack and crescendo to ff back to pp. your videos are excellent and I enjoy them very much. You have a great breadth of knowledge. As a side note, my DeLancie shape cost $25 and I bought my Graf gouged my first year at Eastman for $125 and Cas set it up for $25. I occasionally sharpen the blade are adjust thickness, but have never had to touch adjustments for 50 years. I ‘d like to see more about the measurements of your shapers and staples. I still have staples which I bought from Moennig. Once Dick was complaining about new staples, so I gave him 6, and he still plays them, always letting me know that.
footformshoes Thank you so much for this information. Really wonderful to hear from you and your history. I believe it is something much needed today to connect us with this extraordinary craft. Thank you again.
Thank you for this video! My teacher, Hans Lindner, made reed that were much more like the DeLancie reeds and this explains why whenever I've tried other people's reeds, and tried to purchase a reed in an emergency, they've felt so strange and given me a completely different sound. As Cooper mentioned below there's more contouring to the heart, but also he always emphasized that the spine goes through the tip, so while it's thin, there's a bit more of a defined line running through to give it stability and a defined core to the tone. His style also has longer windows going further back so that affects that balance quite a bit too.
Thank you for making this video and sharing your insights! It was nice to hear you mention David Weber. I got my first gouging machine from him when I was 18 (I’m 57 now). I also made reeds for their (he and Vendla) business for many years until they retired. I’ll be sure to share this with my colleagues, I’m sure they’ll find it fascinating.
My teacher was Earnest Harrison and he was a master Reed maker. David Weber was a close friend and I worked with him he was as good as you can get in understanding the double radius gouge and setting up gougers.
Really cool video. I think it’s really cool how every oboist makes their reeds slightly different but their tendencies can for the most part can be traced back to who taught you and who taught your teacher. One of my favorite oboe books is the Reed styles book that shows different reeds made by famous oboist from around the world. Someone should publish an update to this, showing how reddmaking had progressed.
You are the best of the best. Your videos are always so enjoyable and informative. Your level of expertise and particularity is so impressive. It is obvious that you are the cream of the crop, best in class, top of your field. Looking forward to seeing more vids of all types from you. Oh and please write a book one day!!!
Very interesting. I took a look at the pictures at the back of Weber and Capps's book and the difference between the Mack and DeLancie reeds is exactly as you describe. And notably both the Tabuteau and Caldwell reeds are a lot more like the DeLancie style. Also it makes sense to me that there's more resistance from the Mack style - resistance tends to come from sharp transitions. I'll definitely be experimenting with a smoother taper from the heart to the tip.
Thank you for sharing! You weren’t kidding, the Philadelphia style reed is much more vibrant! I feel like it may be a bit harder to control without that “separation” from the heart. Any thoughts on where we would get that control from?
Hello Ryan, Be sure to thin the corners of the tip and more out of yhe very back should help. You may remove some from the sides of the tip but carefully. Hope that helps.
Another excellent, very informative video from Pierre Roy. I've always wondered why American long-scrape reeds require the "overlap" whereas European short-scrape reeds do not. Here I definitely prefer the sound of the DeLancie reeds. I also prefer the sound of the Laubin oboe. Personally, I'd never go near the tip without using the Reed Geek Double-Geek scraper. It's much, much safer.
I think my style since the early 70's as a self taught oboist reed maker is closer to the DeLanci style reed.The Art Of Oboe Playing is all I had for the first 30 years. I look for the easy shimmering tone that responds to the wood of the my AK Loree oboe. I need a certain feel of the body of the reed that symbiotically vibrates to resonate the sound for expression. The balance of the tip to back area, and how it feels in the embouchure, where the sensation of the tip vibrations are focused. Tabuteau used expression that's almost impossible to teach. Each note in a phrase needed to be related to each other from within the line, much like words in a sentence. I seek a shimmering controlled resonance from the reed. Once "finished", then the slightest balancing of the 4 quadrants of the heart, and back, and tip is the key, the dusting as you have noted before, which brings the reed to life, as a truly singing reed. Your other video with hard/soft cane scrape differences, seems inter-related to this one, where the hard cane needs a Mack style tip, and the softer cane needs a DeLancie style tip sans the concave curve in the tip blend from the definition. My only few lessons were from John Ellis. He scraped a blank I gave him. I swear, that reed was made in about 60 seconds, very few strokes, very thin and vibrant, looking closer the the DeLancie style. Thanks for every one of your videos.
Interesting theory. My grand teachers would have been both Mack and De Lancie students. I was taught to make reeds like the Mack reeds (and I still do transition to end), but mine are blended like the De Lancie reeds. I can pick up any instrument and play it; my colleagues with the same teachers can only play Lorees. I am not sure its quite isolated in the tip though. I belive the staple has more to do with what instrument works for you as it is an extension of the bore however I do think that the blended reeds are more vibrant and less stable, which lend themselves well to instruments with less undercutting that more more stable inherently (not Loree). This translates to vibrancy inside really good intonation. The Loree instrument is vibrant and requires a stable reed. I believe a Mack reed on a Yamaha, Fox, Rigioutat, Laubin, etc would feel stuffy.
Wow. Fantastic video. Thank you. The reed that you are using to scrape the reeds - is this the knife that you are selling on your website? I am interested in purchasing a knife like this - it looks like a hollow ground? Also, the playing at the beginning (yours, the Vaughn Williams.... beautiful!) I would like to purchase some reeds from you - they are different than what I am used to playing - want to try something different. Amazing that they can be made so fast, and they sound great - clean and sweet with a lot of character., articulates beautifully. Thanks again for the video.
Barbara S thank you Barbara for the positive comments. The knife I am using in this video and most videos is a Vitry copy. Not as good as the originals but still one of my favorites. It is a double hollow ground. The knife on the website is a simpler folding wedge shape. But the steel is good.
Well I studied with deLancie and I probably make my reeds more like Mack. This is even though I have a small supply of deLancie reeds and have always tries to emulate them...even on my Laubin
So the tip on the DeLancie style reed is thicker than the Mack style reed? It also looks like there is more out of the back on the Mack versus the DeLancie. I wonder what the micrometer measurements are respectively. Can’t wait until the new shaper tip comes out!
Noah Brown I don’t know if this helps at all. But I study at cim and there’s more of a use of the back. For example, I use the opus 1 gouger (double radius) and then some strong cane to make reeds where I start with a lot out of the back so the whole reed is vibrating before finishing the tip
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Hi Pierre, Cooper here... I think a lot of things you got right about the differences, but I did notice a few things that you might have missed.
Having said that, I never had the opportunity to study with de Lancie himself but I saw a handful of his reeds from David who explained every detail of them. I did sit at the desk of David Weber for 3 years when I lived in Chandler. My wife was the office assistant there (would pack up orders, answer phones etc) and I would go pick her up every day, usually stopping by and talking with David for 15 mins... which would extend for an hour until it was dinner time. Some days I spent 12-15 hours in his shop watching him repad an instrument, pin a crack, or heaven forbid, fix a gouging machine which he hated... I'll never forget asking him if I could buy a graf blade for him and he put me in the car, drove me to the hardware store where we bought steel strips, sand paper, drill bits, a blow torch, and motor oil (for oil quenching). Some 20 hours later I had 15 new graf blades and blisters all over all 10 fingers.
The biggest thing you talk about is the taper, and while this is true about the tip (tapering all the way to the end), it is also true for the heart, as well as the windows. David said the Philadelphia style had to taper to the middle of the heart, and then back down to the thinnest place in the windows and back up. No hard ledges or lines, just one constant hourglass shape. Based upon your video, it seems like the thinnest place on your reed is about the middle of the window. David always taught the thinnest place was just behind the heart, otherwise the top 1/3rd of the window and taper back up to the bark.
Another thing was that the tip and the heart always tapered from side to side. The scrape of the side of the heart was thinner than the middle, and so it almost had a complete dome shape (not visably domed, but if you measured it with a micrometer the side next to the rail was much thinner than the middle and channels).
This concept of the heart was much different from Mack who actually referred to the heart often as the "plateau" implying that it was basically parallel from a side view from the back of the heart to the front. The effect of this is obviously adding more resistance to the reed to blow against (something you talk about when you mention his strong airstream). The windows were always somewhat parallel in the lowest places. With the tip being parallel, heart being parallel and windows being parallel, this created a purportionally thicker and more stable heart to blow against, which you describe.
The final big thing that isn't mentioned is the overlap. de Lancie and Mack both used the overlap but in different ways. de Lancie would scrape both the left and right sides of the reed differently, so that the left side rail and window would kind of collapse into the overlap, thus creating tighter sides and a more focused sound. This is why the double radius was so important obviously because it was strong enough to hold up.
There's more I could mention, but everything you say makes sense to me. More pieces to the puzzle to see the overall picture.
Cooper, thanks so much for your comments. Very interesting and insightful! Please forgive my delayed response.
This was a very interesting video. It also reminds me of your fork in the road video. My first teacher was Jay Light, who was just graduating from Curtis and he taught me how to make his reeds. DeLancie never taught reed making, although he would comment on them and maybe fix them. Students were expected to teach each other. Jay first roomed with Jim Caldwell, so that’s where he learned. Your reed is very close, but we all had to buy a DeLancie shape from Cas(he worked for Moennig) which is very wide, but we played shorter reeds, 68mm. DeLancie would stop you in the middle of a lesson and make you play a long tone on low d. God forbid he heard an attack. That’s how responsive they were. When Jay left I started studying with a Tabuteau student who lived near me. He didn’t want to teach but Moennig convinced him to listen to me and he became a great friend and a wonderful teacher. He graduated in 1938 and played the style Tabuteau did at that time. There are good examples in Ledet’s book. DeLancie lived with him his first year and they were always good friends. He offered the assistant principal job to him in 1957, but he turned it down. Didn’t pay enough. His tips were just like the DeLancie style you showed. Thinner heart, but blended right into the tip. Very vibrant and responsive. He called it a ringing sound. A much fuller sound than Jay’s. I was just getting out of high school when Woodhams was in Curtis and we used to gig a lot together. His reeds were typical DeLancie reeds. We’ve been friends for many years and when he was playing in Philadelphia we would get together to play and try instruments. His reeds weren’t much different. A thinner shape and 69 to 70. Very easy to play. Again, heart blended into tip exactly as you showed. I had friends who studied with Mack and their reeds were exactly as you described them. Responsive, but you really had to move air through them, but they weren’t flexible. They play with one sound and that was it. I remember their tips being exactly as you showed. They could never figure out why mine were so effortless. And I can always play a low d with no attack and crescendo to ff back to pp.
your videos are excellent and I enjoy them very much. You have a great breadth of knowledge.
As a side note, my DeLancie shape cost $25 and I bought my Graf gouged my first year at Eastman for $125 and Cas set it up for $25. I occasionally sharpen the blade are adjust thickness, but have never had to touch adjustments for 50 years. I ‘d like to see more about the measurements of your shapers and staples. I still have staples which I bought from Moennig. Once Dick was complaining about new staples, so I gave him 6, and he still plays them, always letting me know that.
footformshoes Thank you so much for this information. Really wonderful to hear from you and your history. I believe it is something much needed today to connect us with this extraordinary craft. Thank you again.
Thank you for this video! My teacher, Hans Lindner, made reed that were much more like the DeLancie reeds and this explains why whenever I've tried other people's reeds, and tried to purchase a reed in an emergency, they've felt so strange and given me a completely different sound. As Cooper mentioned below there's more contouring to the heart, but also he always emphasized that the spine goes through the tip, so while it's thin, there's a bit more of a defined line running through to give it stability and a defined core to the tone. His style also has longer windows going further back so that affects that balance quite a bit too.
Thank you for making this video and sharing your insights! It was nice to hear you mention David Weber. I got my first gouging machine from him when I was 18 (I’m 57 now). I also made reeds for their (he and Vendla) business for many years until they retired. I’ll be sure to share this with my colleagues, I’m sure they’ll find it fascinating.
My teacher was Earnest Harrison and he was a master Reed maker.
David Weber was a close friend and I worked with him he was as good as you can get in understanding the double radius gouge and setting up gougers.
Really cool video. I think it’s really cool how every oboist makes their reeds slightly different but their tendencies can for the most part can be traced back to who taught you and who taught your teacher. One of my favorite oboe books is the Reed styles book that shows different reeds made by famous oboist from around the world. Someone should publish an update to this, showing how reddmaking had progressed.
You are the best of the best. Your videos are always so enjoyable and informative. Your level of expertise and particularity is so impressive. It is obvious that you are the cream of the crop, best in class, top of your field. Looking forward to seeing more vids of all types from you. Oh and please write a book one day!!!
G J Thank you G J much appreciated!
Very interesting. I took a look at the pictures at the back of Weber and Capps's book and the difference between the Mack and DeLancie reeds is exactly as you describe. And notably both the Tabuteau and Caldwell reeds are a lot more like the DeLancie style. Also it makes sense to me that there's more resistance from the Mack style - resistance tends to come from sharp transitions. I'll definitely be experimenting with a smoother taper from the heart to the tip.
Thank you for sharing! You weren’t kidding, the Philadelphia style reed is much more vibrant! I feel like it may be a bit harder to control without that “separation” from the heart. Any thoughts on where we would get that control from?
Hello Ryan, Be sure to thin the corners of the tip and more out of yhe very back should help. You may remove some from the sides of the tip but carefully. Hope that helps.
Another excellent, very informative video from Pierre Roy. I've always wondered why American long-scrape reeds require the "overlap" whereas European short-scrape reeds do not. Here I definitely prefer the sound of the DeLancie reeds. I also prefer the sound of the Laubin oboe. Personally, I'd never go near the tip without using the Reed Geek Double-Geek scraper. It's much, much safer.
I think my style since the early 70's as a self taught oboist reed maker is closer to the DeLanci style reed.The Art Of Oboe Playing is all I had for the first 30 years. I look for the easy shimmering tone that responds to the wood of the my AK Loree oboe. I need a certain feel of the body of the reed that symbiotically vibrates to resonate the sound for expression. The balance of the tip to back area, and how it feels in the embouchure, where the sensation of the tip vibrations are focused. Tabuteau used expression that's almost impossible to teach. Each note in a phrase needed to be related to each other from within the line, much like words in a sentence. I seek a shimmering controlled resonance from the reed. Once "finished", then the slightest balancing of the 4 quadrants of the heart, and back, and tip is the key, the dusting as you have noted before, which brings the reed to life, as a truly singing reed. Your other video with hard/soft cane scrape differences, seems inter-related to this one, where the hard cane needs a Mack style tip, and the softer cane needs a DeLancie style tip sans the concave curve in the tip blend from the definition. My only few lessons were from John Ellis. He scraped a blank I gave him. I swear, that reed was made in about 60 seconds, very few strokes, very thin and vibrant, looking closer the the DeLancie style. Thanks for every one of your videos.
Interesting theory. My grand teachers would have been both Mack and De Lancie students. I was taught to make reeds like the Mack reeds (and I still do transition to end), but mine are blended like the De Lancie reeds. I can pick up any instrument and play it; my colleagues with the same teachers can only play Lorees. I am not sure its quite isolated in the tip though. I belive the staple has more to do with what instrument works for you as it is an extension of the bore however I do think that the blended reeds are more vibrant and less stable, which lend themselves well to instruments with less undercutting that more more stable inherently (not Loree). This translates to vibrancy inside really good intonation. The Loree instrument is vibrant and requires a stable reed. I believe a Mack reed on a Yamaha, Fox, Rigioutat, Laubin, etc would feel stuffy.
Wow. Fantastic video. Thank you. The reed that you are using to scrape the reeds - is this the knife that you are selling on your website? I am interested in purchasing a knife like this - it looks like a hollow ground? Also, the playing at the beginning (yours, the Vaughn Williams.... beautiful!) I would like to purchase some reeds from you - they are different than what I am used to playing - want to try something different. Amazing that they can be made so fast, and they sound great - clean and sweet with a lot of character., articulates beautifully. Thanks again for the video.
Barbara S thank you Barbara for the positive comments. The knife I am using in this video and most videos is a Vitry copy. Not as good as the originals but still one of my favorites. It is a double hollow ground. The knife on the website is a simpler folding wedge shape. But the steel is good.
Well I studied with deLancie and I probably make my reeds more like Mack. This is even though I have a small supply of deLancie reeds and have always tries to emulate them...even on my Laubin
I like these reed videos but
Where did you find the De Lancie recording of Vaughan Williams? Could you send me the link?
Kaleb Zhu sorry Kaleb thats me playing Vaughan-Williams.
Can I buy one of your shaper tips?
Hi James, the best way is to go to my site Pierreroyoboe.com and use paypal. Make sure the correct address is in the purchase. Thanks.
What was that shaper tip at the beginning of the video?
That tip is the prototype for my newest shaper which will be available in April 2020 and is called the ROY EV.
What is the piece that plays in the beginning of the video?
Vaughan Williams oboe concerto
Its me performing the Vaughan-Williams Concerto
What cane do you use!
Coln Minato right now its Rigotti
So the tip on the DeLancie style reed is thicker than the Mack style reed? It also looks like there is more out of the back on the Mack versus the DeLancie. I wonder what the micrometer measurements are respectively. Can’t wait until the new shaper tip comes out!
Noah Brown I don’t know if this helps at all. But I study at cim and there’s more of a use of the back. For example, I use the opus 1 gouger (double radius) and then some strong cane to make reeds where I start with a lot out of the back so the whole reed is vibrating before finishing the tip