Barrett the BassKing! You bring a lot of knowledge to the community. Thanks for your hard work testing out multiple subwoofers for us to make informed buying decisions brother!
Ive got 3 JTR 4000ULF's... and there is no beating them. Flat responses and couldn't be happier. I consider the JTR's to be like using amps for the first time. Just don't do it, unless you are prepared to unhappy without them afterwards. Of course that means great comparisons later on, by continuing to test all the myriad of subs. Great job!
You're right, sound quality is separate from output, generally speaking. I generally get asked about output, which is why I tried to answer that question in this video. The main reason I won't tackle sound quality in a video, is because I owned some of these subwoofers years ago. As I'm sure you know, our audio memory isn't very accurate. I would have to base my sound quality comments on memory, which isn't accurate and/or fair. Generally speaking, I would lump the Tonewinners in the same category as the SVS for sound quality. The JTR and Arendal would be a step up in sound quality.
Trying turning down LF Adjust on the Captivator. With the LF Adjust at max, it will reach it's maximum output on the lowend sooner. With the LF Adjust turned down the Captivator will go much louder before compression.
I am SVS and you will kneel before my "marketing" 🤔😳😂😂😂 just pulling the SVS fans legs! I actually roll with Dual SVS SB3000's myself 🔈🔈 great company and customer service that rocks! Great review as always.
lol I agree. I still love SVS as a company. They have great customer service and care about the audio community. I even love their new Evolution speakers.
That is a great price for that subwoofer. If I remember right, they had a lot of quality issues with their drivers and amps though. There was 1 guy on RUclips that went through 3 or 4 I think. But they do have great performance, no question.
Love my dual SVS SB4000's. The control app is awesome and [I believe] unmatched in the industry. Curious. What does the term compression mean in a sub measurement? Are you saying the voice coils appeared to be overworked?
Compression is basically when the woofer runs out of steam when they do compression testing when they run a test, they then raise the volume by three more decibels if the line looks the same as the line before on the graph, it’s good if it doesn’t and they see that every frequency did not gain 3 dB that’s when they consider the woofer, reaching compression a.k.a. it’s maximum output Being comfortable without overstressing the woofer trying to get more hope this helps
There may be something in the pipeline from a different company, but very competitive price point. Stay tuned on the channel. You may see something about it within the next 6-8 months.
Great value for sure on the ToneWinner subs... aside from austere looks, the subs are huge..! the SW-9000 is 18% bigger than the JTR Cap2400 ULF (the bigger one than what Barrett had)... if you want multiple subs you'd better make sure you have the space for them...
Barrett, first, thank you for this great output comparison! FWIW, I'll share my thoughts in case anyone finds this helpful. If i were starting to put together a serious system but on a somewhat reasonable budget, I would likely use Tonewinner or possibly Hsu (which you need to include in this comparison someday! 😉 ) But for anyone who wants to buy once cry once, besides output, i cant help but notice that JTR and Arendal provide flatter responses with similar output in your room, indicating that they do a better job providing even bass out of the box, i.e.without room correction, than the Tonewinners (assuming you tested all the subs in the same location of your room. Did you?) Also, I would suspect that the Arendal and especially the JTR have much more desirable group delay than the Tonewinners, which might mean that they output better quality/"tightness" of bass instead of looking for raw and potentially uncontrolled output of the Tonewinners. (That's what i suspect until decay or group delay measurements can be taken and shown.) Again, this is all food for thought for anyone who might read this. Barrett, thanks again for your efforts and the information you provide!
I noticed that as well. Important to remember that this was only an output test. The JTR and Arendal responses looked considerably flatter than the Tonewinner subs. JTR is monstrous in the infrasonic range. Still an impressive showing for the Tonewinner subs above 20hz.
I would love to get CEA2010 data of the Tonewinners. I'm curious how the stack up in measurements besides my in room measurements as well. By the way, I did mention in the video that I measure all subs in the front righthand corner of my room for consistency. The only measurements that varied from this, were the SVS, because I had 2 of them in the room. So there advantage, was comparing duals versus a single Tonewinner.
I have 2 jtr 2400 subs I want to add some similar subs but instead of going for two more jtrs would the tonewinner subs play well with the jtrs or would it be a mismatch?
I just got seriously into subwoofers after my Nakaimichi dragon subs didn't come as advertised. So they decided to release new 12 inch subwoofers to fixed the problem. But I decided to test it against the 2 Elac RS 700. You have to understand these are in a different league than I'm used to 😮
I wonder why the pb16’s have such a big dip @20hz. Most of the subs follow a very similar pattern below 50hz, similar peaks and valleys. But the pb16’s and jtr’s are the only outliers really.
Remember there were dual PB16's in the room, so their response will differ vs the single subs. There could be phase differences as well. That's why I didn't want viewers to focus too much on the response nulls/peaks.
Ported will have more output but at the cost of size. The sealed will have a smaller footprint at the cost of output. Those are the fundamental differences.
i wish u added earthquakesound supernova mk6 or mk7dsp with 15`` and a 15inch passive s.l.a.p.s passive radiator with 13-18hz aility depending on enclosure etc ... also their 600 or 750 w class d or class J nJ hybrid are stated to be more like 1200w rms but only draws 600 or 750 depending on model.. the class j earthquake inhouse class called J are really something else . plus i heard two different svs pb ultra 16 owners say themselves they wish they went for supernova instead
Finally!. . . Now, whoever is your winner will you PLEASE compare it against the new HSU VTF-TN1 15* sub ($1,200 usd). The new SVS 17" sub is waaay' overpriced.
All of these subs will easily outperform the HSU VTF-TN1. It might potentially get close to a single PB16 though. There is only so much a single 15” driver can do. Still a great value though.
There is a good chance I won't ever compare the HSU. They have no interest in sending me one for review and don't offer any discount either. Which means I'd have to pay retail price to bring one in for review. Which just doesn't make any financial sense. I hope one day they change their mind, because I would love to see how they perform and share my findings.
Thank you for all the great information! I just placed my order for two D9000s, which I should receive sometime next week. I made sure to use your promo code and purchase through your link so you get credit for the purchase. I was hoping to get your opinion on my current subwoofer setup. I also have an AVM 90 and two PB-16 Ultras in my front stage. I’m planning to use the D9000s for my near-field setup. Due to the limitations of the PB-16s, do you think the AVM 90 will dial down the D9000s to blend with the PB-16s, potentially limiting the D9000s’ full potential? What are your thoughts?
The PB16’s will definitely hold back your D9000’s. I strongly recommend having the PB16’s nearfield given the large output disparity. At least nearfield they will have a fighting chance.
Nice, I have no doubt you will be blown away by their performance. Make sure to look for rattles in your room, because these subs will absolutely let you know where they are lol. Yes, your bass is only as strong as your weakest link. The processor will have to tame the 9000's so they will be balanced with the PB16's.
Do you have any suggestions on how I should adjust the settings on the AVM 90 to ensure I get the maximum output from the D9000 while also implementing the PB-16 as a near-field sub? I’d really appreciate any advice on how to optimize my setup on the AVM 90 to get the best performance out of both subs.
@@LuisRodriguez-h3d I would recommend just allowing the room calibration to do it's job, to be honest. Then see how you like the sound. If you feel you need more or less, adjust from there. But the easiest way to integrate them is with the ARC software.
Did you watch the whole video? I showed the measurements with the JTR LF adjust turned down as well. But I was also running the Tonewinner with the DEEP DSP setting turned on, this is putting a house curve on the Tonewinner. So, it's still apples to apples. With the JTR LF adjust turned down, I measured the Tonewinner with the "Normal" DSP setting turned on, so again as close to apples to apples as I can get.
Having the ability to output 115db sustained SPL at the seated position at 20hz is a thx reference requirement. Subs that can output more than this generally have lower harmonic distortion too at the required 115db level. My seated position is 6m from the sub, so I need 130db SPL at 1m from the subs. Spl is only one measurement though. Distortion, group delay, transient response, waterfall plots for ringing, dampening.
@SpecOfTech maybe on youtube but on all the hardcore HT subwoofer forums everyone seems to be upgrading to PSA or JTR ( they're usually upgrading from SVS usually). PSA has rapidly gained popularity, especially with their recently upgraded drivers. FYI I know Tom V is a...."character" lol.
@@marcgallant5270 The PSA sub I had was tremendous... if it could only not die on me every few months. Really good output, but the build quality I'm not convinced is consistent enough to stack up against other vendors. What good is having a really good sub that has the woofer die on you and/or the amp die on you every couple months? In comparison to the previous SVS sub (PB12-Plus I bought in late 2012/early 2013) I had where the original woofer lasted for me for about a year, then the replacement woofer (on the same system, mind you, doing the same workload) lasted from 2013 until 2023/24 (the amp is still good on that one too - never replaced). I will never tell people to not get PSA subs. They're fantastic, when they work. And according to the owner, I'm a huge fringe case. Just want people to have the knowledge of my experience with it.
Spec of Tech.. Spec... Subbed and decimated that like button.. for the algorithm.. Took a while, had to make sure you weren't a paid in full actor.. half paid is ok.. Thanks for showing what you measured. I'll say this, room gain is not as important as the overall level of quality. People say well your room gain is at blah blah blah, it's always less than overall... It's difficult to convey the IRL experience. Except to play/record it.. RUclips does a good job of recreating timed variations but not total sonic quality. So a muddy sub will sound like a toilet..But the pluck of a string is noticable.. I've tried to tell GR, Audiophile this guy and that. Yo if you can record sound decently, RUclips will put it out at 20 to 20 at stereo with thx 15 years ago standards. Which is better than most vinylz people listen to.. I digress.. Any of those subs would make a average tv/listening room slightly oppressive with sound pressure. GGs.
Thanks for decimating the like button lol. I'm glad you finally realized that I do my best to give you honest info. I appreciate the sub my friend, cheers.
It's been a long time since I've had the other subwoofers in my room. It wouldn't be a very good comparison trying to compare subjective listening based on months, or even years old memories of the subwoofers sound.
Man, your room either totally sucks for bass, especially low bass reinforcement or your mic cal is off somehow. A single PB16U can do 109db at 16hz measured 2m/RMS ground plane (in the middle of a field) ...112dB at 20hz and 118dB+ from 30hz and up. In a room, with boundary assistance and room/cabin gain, I'm surprised to see compression in a sweep that would be well under reference level in the LFE channel with dual pb16s. 105db at 20hz with dual PB16Us (in room) seems low(?)
You are comparing cea2010 burst tests to compression testing, that's not apples to apples. The keyword there is "burst". Those are very short term peak numbers at a given frequency. You'd be better off comparing the long term output sweeps that Audioholics has posted in their review. They are more similar to compression sweeps that I showed. You will see compression in the long term output sweeps as well. But yes, the room also plays a roll. The thing to focus on, is that all subwoofers were measured in the same spot in my room. Therefore, they will all have the same room and room issues to deal with. Except in the case of the PB16's, there were 2 subwoofers in the room, 1 in the front right and 1 beside my left speaker. They had the advantage over all the other subwoofers measured, because I was comparing 2 of them to single subwoofers.
Fair enough,but even in their long term sweeps a single PB16U was hitting around 108dB at 20hz without compression measured at 2m outdoors . Ive been in a fairly large home cinema with dual PB16Us and they definitely were nowhere near their limits at anything under reference level. Anyway, not meant to be a knock at your video, just surprised at how little low bass room gain you get. I have 3 x sealed subs (Seaton Submersives) and get tonnes of room gain under about 25hz.
@@jamiet74 My room is open at the back to the rest of the house. I have a 4 level split home, and the only level that can be closed off from the rest is the basement. So you're right, my room is the eater of bass lol.
@@SpecOfTech Oh well yeah 😂 open to a 4 level split home will definitely do that! I'm in a sealed room and have the opposite problem,I have to shelve down the under 30hz bass with the Low Frequency Adjust dial on the subs or it's just way too much
I don’t think you have to go through the process of finding the max measurement in the video. Just pull them before and throw up the comparison. We trust ya.
Haha I appreciate your trust my friend. I wish that you spoke for everyone. I would 100% be called out if I didn't show that. There are some serious fanboys out there lol. Thanks again bud...cheers.
To be honest your compression level picks seem useless. You throw away 5db of completely usable output for the PB16s, and we never actually see meaningful compression in the graph. I'm not sure this is an accurate test.
I was strict on all the subs for compression, not just on SVS. That's what compression testing is, what is the max output of the subwoofer before it compresses. To keep it simple, I don't allow any compression FOR ALL THE SUBS. That way I can't have someone come on here and question it...yet here you are. If these measurements disappointed you, it's only because of your own internal bias towards SVS. Cheers!
@SpecOfTech Absolutely no bias for SVS on my part. You just never showed a line with meaningful compression, and then decided to throw out another 5db for some reason. Saying there is compression for any of the subs, and not actually showing it is not useful at all, and doesn't lend to credibility.
@@ChihuAudioMan 5DB? Where do you get that number from? The lines are in 3db increments. Look at the line, the compression is visible. Again, I used the same criteria for all subs, so it truly is fair. Saying you have no bias towards SVS, while arguing on the behalf of SVS, is not useful, and doesn't lend to your credibility. There has been an overwhelmingly positive response to this video, and the viewers found these measurements useful/helpful, including me. You seem to be the only one questioning credibility, when the same criteria was applied to all subwoofers. That does seem to show some bias...just saying! Have a good one...cheers!
@@SpecOfTech I'm not saying the TW subs aren't a good value, and deep performance is amazing. But if you critically look at your graph values, you eliminate any SVS line that drops below 3.0db increment, and call that compression, however if you look at all the TW lines, almost none of them actually increment in 3.0db values, and most are 2.25 or 2.5 even the lower lines. Yet, you keep all of them except the very top one. If your 3.0db criteria for compression holds up, why is that allowed on the TW's?
@@ChihuAudioMan It wasn't allowed, and it's a good thing the video is proof of that. You're just reaching to try and prove your point. You're welcome for the data, do with it what you will. I'm sorry your favorite didn't do as well as you thought it would. Have good day!
you may want to consider renaming your title to "Graphs galore: subwoofer shootout." or similar. Then, that would attract to audio geeks. for those folks as myself who never understood these graphs, maybe give a quick tutorial on how to read them. this would be inline to us cars guys who can read a Tach gauge on a car to know the health of an engine. another way to put it,....if you're going to talk calculus but I only pass algebra, well,... BTW, I found only one distributor in SoCal. I maybe at their mercy. thanks anyway.
The biggest takeaway here isn't the output but the roll offs. Not only does the tone winners dig deeper but I've never previously noticed SVS has such a bad top roll off at 70db. Is that common or just a null they happen to have in your room? The tone winners based on those measurements would cross over for none LFE bass far better than SVS. JTR was the same, null after 70. Yet the tone winners don't experience the same null? Thanks for turning me onto the brand.
Upgraded from the pb-3000 to PB16. Pb obviously amazing below 25hz but the pb3000 definitely has better mid bass. Interested in how the PB 17 will compare. Looks pretty impressive. JTR in the future.
@@jake-jp3vb Just got it in this morning and been playing around with it. It sounds freaking fantastic so far. I know a lot of people use Edge of Tomorrow as a gauge, at least for chuffing issues or anything like that on the ports. Absolutely ZERO chuffing. Handles everything I've thrown at it so far like a champ. Honestly too? At least for my purposes I don't see a need to a get a 2nd. I'd say so far, the PSA sub might have been a little louder? But, this one is DEFINITELY tighter and more controlled on the bass. I've never noticed that attribute that well before with subs. I do with this one, especially after I changed polarity to negative. Much much much tighter bass. Nothing boomy. Nothing that the sub with normal mode where it can't hit the low extension of what I'm playing. Daredevil's heartbeat intro hits perfectly (which was an issue with a previous SVS sub I had). Black Sails' battles sound fantastic. Going to play a few videogames here. So far, it's a huge winner in my book. Hopefully it has longevity. I don't want to have to worry about replacing it for at least 10 years. Gameplay with it is great so far. Been playing the new Dragon Age. Everything hits as it should. From this point on, I think all I'm worried about is longevity. Won't be able to quote on that at least until a few months to a few years have passed. If it lasts 6 months with no issues, then at the VERY least, the build quality beats the ever living shit out of the PSA sub(s) I had. Also, is my comment literally the ONLY current review of this sub? I can't find ANYONE else reviewing it. It's freaking great. SVS, quote me on that. As long as this sub lasts me at least 10 years, I will never buy outside of SVS again. This thing hits hard. The only drawback so far is that it's not as loud as the PSA sub I had. That had a bit more oomph to it, but it's a wonderful trade-off I will gladly accept if this thing lasts longer than the PSA sub(s) I had. By "a bit", I'm probably saying maybe 3db. Maybe. But that's me just saying random shit that I don't fully know about. It's a guess. I just know there's a noticeable difference in volume. They shake everything the same, but volume is different. I'm not sure at all in comparison to Tonewinners, but for what I need, this works, and it does it effortlessly. I'll update my review as months go on. So far, this compared to PSA TV18F-M? That sub gets a 9.5/10 originally, but ends with me giving it a 6.5/10 (points off for build quality/longevity - which is horrible), this gets a 9/10 (only a point off so far for volume difference). And the PSA review is generous. I'm almost leaning toward a 5/10 overall just for longevity/build quality issues. If I were being a terrible reviewer, I'd actually give it 3/10, but I want to give a more honest review. SVS PB17 so far: 9/10 (and ENTIRELY DEPENDS ON LONGEVITY) PSA TV18F-M: 6.5/10 (longevity/build quality DESTROYED this brand for me - I will NEVER buy from them again... I'd actually buy from Yamaha again before I buy from PSA) In comparison against its own? SVS PB17 so far: 9/10 (and ENTIRELY DEPENDS ON LONGEVITY) SVS PB12-Plus: 6/10 (was a decently good upgrade originally, but couldn't handle deep bass well enough and had chuffing issues) In comparison against the only other sub I've owned? SVS PB17 so far: 9/10 (and ENTIRELY DEPENDS ON LONGEVITY) Yamaha shitty sub from 20+ years ago (not remembering the model): 3/10 (it was an okay starter kit - that's the best I can give it) Going from what I originally had 20+ years ago to today? I don't ever need to go to a theater again, let's put it that way.
Yes, the PB16 is dated, but it's still available, and price wise is in the same ballpark as the tonewinner subs. There is nothing wrong with showing that there are better subwoofers for the money compared to SVS.
Why are using the seven year old PB16? Use the new PB17 for relevance. The PB16 is on closeout for $2199.99. Old technology vs new technology. Make it apples to apples.
Why not use the PB16? It's a subwoofer that a lot of people still own, and is still relevant. I also used to own them, hence why I had the measurements to compare. I hope to get a PB17 in for review and measurements, but I haven't gotten one in yet. Hard for me to compare measurements I don't have 🤷♂️.
Excellent comparison. Price wise they are in the same ballpark. Good to see there is competition and better performing subwoofers for the money coming from lesser known brands. SVS subs are good but a bit overhyped and overrated.
Barrett the BassKing! You bring a lot of knowledge to the community. Thanks for your hard work testing out multiple subwoofers for us to make informed buying decisions brother!
Thank you, I truly appreciate the comment brother.
Thanks Barrett. That was one of the best sub performance comparisons I’ve seen. Love your channel. Keep up the great work
Thanks brother, I really appreciate that.
Ive got 3 JTR 4000ULF's... and there is no beating them. Flat responses and couldn't be happier.
I consider the JTR's to be like using amps for the first time. Just don't do it, unless you are prepared to unhappy without them afterwards. Of course that means great comparisons later on, by continuing to test all the myriad of subs.
Great job!
Great video, maybe I'm being picky - but measurements is one thing, and sound quality is another. How is the sound quality between all these subs?
You're right, sound quality is separate from output, generally speaking. I generally get asked about output, which is why I tried to answer that question in this video. The main reason I won't tackle sound quality in a video, is because I owned some of these subwoofers years ago. As I'm sure you know, our audio memory isn't very accurate. I would have to base my sound quality comments on memory, which isn't accurate and/or fair. Generally speaking, I would lump the Tonewinners in the same category as the SVS for sound quality. The JTR and Arendal would be a step up in sound quality.
Trying turning down LF Adjust on the Captivator. With the LF Adjust at max, it will reach it's maximum output on the lowend sooner. With the LF Adjust turned down the Captivator will go much louder before compression.
I'm not sure if you caught the whole video, but I did do a measurement with the LF adjust all the way down also for the comparison...cheers.
Would be fun to see how GSG Audio subs would compare to these.
Great stuff, Barrett.
Thanks brother!
I am SVS and you will kneel before my "marketing" 🤔😳😂😂😂 just pulling the SVS fans legs! I actually roll with Dual SVS SB3000's myself 🔈🔈 great company and customer service that rocks! Great review as always.
lol I agree. I still love SVS as a company. They have great customer service and care about the audio community. I even love their new Evolution speakers.
@@SpecOfTechwhat are your thoughts on the new Arendal 1528 speakers? Early impressions have been very positive. Definitely on the pricey side though.
@@brucecarter6205what kind of question is that, they're among the best speakers in the world and they're ten freaking grand. Obviously they slap.
The hands down best value high output sub out there at the moment is the Monoprice Monolith M-215.....$1699! Free shipping too!
That is a great price for that subwoofer. If I remember right, they had a lot of quality issues with their drivers and amps though. There was 1 guy on RUclips that went through 3 or 4 I think. But they do have great performance, no question.
Such a shame it's free shipping within US only.
That company scammed me on some cheap cables so im not givng them thousnads no matter how good it is.
@@googleassignedun1 Monoprice scammed you?
What are your thoughts on the the new SVS PB17 ultra
Bud - do you mind sharing what microphone you are using to do your tests, is it something like a umik?
JTR's are insane !
Yes they are. Amazing low end performance...amazing performance in general really.
Absolutely! Imagine a pair of Cap 4000ULF. Endgame!!
Love my dual SVS SB4000's. The control app is awesome and [I believe] unmatched in the industry. Curious. What does the term compression mean in a sub measurement? Are you saying the voice coils appeared to be overworked?
Compression is basically when the woofer runs out of steam when they do compression testing when they run a test, they then raise the volume by three more decibels if the line looks the same as the line before on the graph, it’s good if it doesn’t and they see that every frequency did not gain 3 dB that’s when they consider the woofer, reaching compression a.k.a. it’s maximum output Being comfortable without overstressing the woofer trying to get more hope this helps
@@jacoblynch9862 Great explanation. Really appreciate this. Thanks!
@@jacoblynch9862not just the woofer being over stressed. It's the amplifier also running out of power.
I hope that Tonewinner comes out with some high performance 18” sealed subs
There may be something in the pipeline from a different company, but very competitive price point. Stay tuned on the channel. You may see something about it within the next 6-8 months.
Great value for sure on the ToneWinner subs... aside from austere looks, the subs are huge..! the SW-9000 is 18% bigger than the JTR Cap2400 ULF (the bigger one than what Barrett had)... if you want multiple subs you'd better make sure you have the space for them...
Barrett, first, thank you for this great output comparison! FWIW, I'll share my thoughts in case anyone finds this helpful. If i were starting to put together a serious system but on a somewhat reasonable budget, I would likely use Tonewinner or possibly Hsu (which you need to include in this comparison someday! 😉 ) But for anyone who wants to buy once cry once, besides output, i cant help but notice that JTR and Arendal provide flatter responses with similar output in your room, indicating that they do a better job providing even bass out of the box, i.e.without room correction, than the Tonewinners (assuming you tested all the subs in the same location of your room. Did you?) Also, I would suspect that the Arendal and especially the JTR have much more desirable group delay than the Tonewinners, which might mean that they output better quality/"tightness" of bass instead of looking for raw and potentially uncontrolled output of the Tonewinners. (That's what i suspect until decay or group delay measurements can be taken and shown.) Again, this is all food for thought for anyone who might read this. Barrett, thanks again for your efforts and the information you provide!
I noticed that as well. Important to remember that this was only an output test. The JTR and Arendal responses looked considerably flatter than the Tonewinner subs. JTR is monstrous in the infrasonic range. Still an impressive showing for the Tonewinner subs above 20hz.
I would love to get CEA2010 data of the Tonewinners. I'm curious how the stack up in measurements besides my in room measurements as well. By the way, I did mention in the video that I measure all subs in the front righthand corner of my room for consistency. The only measurements that varied from this, were the SVS, because I had 2 of them in the room. So there advantage, was comparing duals versus a single Tonewinner.
What distance was the microphone away from the subwoofer?
I have 2 jtr 2400 subs I want to add some similar subs but instead of going for two more jtrs would the tonewinner subs play well with the jtrs or would it be a mismatch?
Hi. Please tell me what would you choose two pieces of D6000 or one D9000. D8000 Pro is not considered, it does not fit because of the size. Thanks
I would go with dual D6000. Still plenty of output and a smoother response around the room with dual subs.
Why didn’t you include your TV36s?
hi bud if i was to choose the extended mode on the svs subs would i need to recalibrate again. I originally calibrated in All ports open mode, cheers.
Yes sir, you sure would. Whenever you change the frequency response you should recalibrate.
@@SpecOfTech Thats a bummer, thanks for replying, keep up your good vids, im a long time subscriber
Great video, keep up the good work.
Thanks!
I just got seriously into subwoofers after my Nakaimichi dragon subs didn't come as advertised. So they decided to release new 12 inch subwoofers to fixed the problem. But I decided to test it against the 2 Elac RS 700. You have to understand these are in a different league than I'm used to 😮
I wonder why the pb16’s have such a big dip @20hz. Most of the subs follow a very similar pattern below 50hz, similar peaks and valleys. But the pb16’s and jtr’s are the only outliers really.
Remember there were dual PB16's in the room, so their response will differ vs the single subs. There could be phase differences as well. That's why I didn't want viewers to focus too much on the response nulls/peaks.
@@SpecOfTech that was what I was wondering. Great video sir!
What’s that sealed sub behind you? Is that an 18 inch driver?
Its a 15" driver. It's just a prototype, I can't say the brand or give any info, unfortunately.
@@SpecOfTech great, thanks man. Love the videos!
Ported vs sealed?
Ported will have more output but at the cost of size. The sealed will have a smaller footprint at the cost of output. Those are the fundamental differences.
i wish u added earthquakesound supernova mk6 or mk7dsp with 15`` and a 15inch passive s.l.a.p.s passive radiator with 13-18hz aility depending on enclosure etc ... also their 600 or 750 w class d or class J nJ hybrid are stated to be more like 1200w rms but only draws 600 or 750 depending on model.. the class j earthquake inhouse class called J are really something else . plus i heard two different svs pb ultra 16 owners say themselves they wish they went for supernova instead
Finally!. . . Now, whoever is your winner will you PLEASE compare it against the new HSU VTF-TN1 15* sub ($1,200 usd). The new SVS 17" sub is waaay' overpriced.
All of these subs will easily outperform the HSU VTF-TN1. It might potentially get close to a single PB16 though. There is only so much a single 15” driver can do. Still a great value though.
There is a good chance I won't ever compare the HSU. They have no interest in sending me one for review and don't offer any discount either. Which means I'd have to pay retail price to bring one in for review. Which just doesn't make any financial sense. I hope one day they change their mind, because I would love to see how they perform and share my findings.
@@brucecarter6205 Living Room Sofa analysis doesn't cut it. Obviously, the real deal comparison absolutely has to happen... and soon
@@SpecOfTech Oh wow', somebody's favorite sub has been spared a huge embarrassment...
Thank you for all the great information! I just placed my order for two D9000s, which I should receive sometime next week. I made sure to use your promo code and purchase through your link so you get credit for the purchase. I was hoping to get your opinion on my current subwoofer setup. I also have an AVM 90 and two PB-16 Ultras in my front stage. I’m planning to use the D9000s for my near-field setup. Due to the limitations of the PB-16s, do you think the AVM 90 will dial down the D9000s to blend with the PB-16s, potentially limiting the D9000s’ full potential? What are your thoughts?
The PB16’s will definitely hold back your D9000’s. I strongly recommend having the PB16’s nearfield given the large output disparity. At least nearfield they will have a fighting chance.
Nice, I have no doubt you will be blown away by their performance. Make sure to look for rattles in your room, because these subs will absolutely let you know where they are lol. Yes, your bass is only as strong as your weakest link. The processor will have to tame the 9000's so they will be balanced with the PB16's.
That's a good suggestion Bruce.
Do you have any suggestions on how I should adjust the settings on the AVM 90 to ensure I get the maximum output from the D9000 while also implementing the PB-16 as a near-field sub? I’d really appreciate any advice on how to optimize my setup on the AVM 90 to get the best performance out of both subs.
@@LuisRodriguez-h3d I would recommend just allowing the room calibration to do it's job, to be honest. Then see how you like the sound. If you feel you need more or less, adjust from there. But the easiest way to integrate them is with the ARC software.
Have you measured the JTR caps with the LF adjusted flatter? Edit* helps to watch the entire video...pay me no attention lol
Did you watch the whole video? I showed the measurements with the JTR LF adjust turned down as well. But I was also running the Tonewinner with the DEEP DSP setting turned on, this is putting a house curve on the Tonewinner. So, it's still apples to apples. With the JTR LF adjust turned down, I measured the Tonewinner with the "Normal" DSP setting turned on, so again as close to apples to apples as I can get.
@@SpecOfTech My mistake I did not see that part...I skipped over it. I'll edit my post... Thanks for doing the review!!
lol all good brother. I'm pretty boring to watch it's hard to sit through it all lol.
who listens to a movie with 120+db output for 2 hours? lol
Having the ability to output 115db sustained SPL at the seated position at 20hz is a thx reference requirement.
Subs that can output more than this generally have lower harmonic distortion too at the required 115db level.
My seated position is 6m from the sub, so I need 130db SPL at 1m from the subs.
Spl is only one measurement though. Distortion, group delay, transient response, waterfall plots for ringing, dampening.
If I remember right you owned dual psa tv3612. Why not on the list?
Is the low authority of the bass as many reviewers said?
Honestly, nobody ever asks me about the PSA subs, that's why I didn't bother including them. They don't seem to be relevant enough.
@SpecOfTech no problem man I just mention it. Tonewinner how does is sound? Frok quality point I mean not only spl
@SpecOfTech maybe on youtube but on all the hardcore HT subwoofer forums everyone seems to be upgrading to PSA or JTR ( they're usually upgrading from SVS usually). PSA has rapidly gained popularity, especially with their recently upgraded drivers. FYI I know Tom V is a...."character" lol.
@@marcgallant5270 The PSA sub I had was tremendous... if it could only not die on me every few months. Really good output, but the build quality I'm not convinced is consistent enough to stack up against other vendors. What good is having a really good sub that has the woofer die on you and/or the amp die on you every couple months? In comparison to the previous SVS sub (PB12-Plus I bought in late 2012/early 2013) I had where the original woofer lasted for me for about a year, then the replacement woofer (on the same system, mind you, doing the same workload) lasted from 2013 until 2023/24 (the amp is still good on that one too - never replaced).
I will never tell people to not get PSA subs. They're fantastic, when they work. And according to the owner, I'm a huge fringe case. Just want people to have the knowledge of my experience with it.
Spec of Tech.. Spec... Subbed and decimated that like button.. for the algorithm.. Took a while, had to make sure you weren't a paid in full actor.. half paid is ok..
Thanks for showing what you measured. I'll say this, room gain is not as important as the overall level of quality. People say well your room gain is at blah blah blah, it's always less than overall... It's difficult to convey the IRL experience. Except to play/record it.. RUclips does a good job of recreating timed variations but not total sonic quality. So a muddy sub will sound like a toilet..But the pluck of a string is noticable..
I've tried to tell GR, Audiophile this guy and that. Yo if you can record sound decently, RUclips will put it out at 20 to 20 at stereo with thx 15 years ago standards. Which is better than most vinylz people listen to.. I digress..
Any of those subs would make a average tv/listening room slightly oppressive with sound pressure. GGs.
Thanks for decimating the like button lol. I'm glad you finally realized that I do my best to give you honest info. I appreciate the sub my friend, cheers.
The measurements point to Tonewinner…. What about subjective listening?
It's been a long time since I've had the other subwoofers in my room. It wouldn't be a very good comparison trying to compare subjective listening based on months, or even years old memories of the subwoofers sound.
@@SpecOfTechI hear ya, but a generalized opinion tho? Is it in the same league? Same conversation?
@@davidperkins4139 I would say they are on par with SVS sound quality. So overall pretty good in that regard.
Might as well get some pro Cerwin-Vega 21 horns at the price. .will obliterate all these
Show us the freq response chart.
Man, your room either totally sucks for bass, especially low bass reinforcement or your mic cal is off somehow.
A single PB16U can do 109db at 16hz measured 2m/RMS ground plane (in the middle of a field) ...112dB at 20hz and 118dB+ from 30hz and up. In a room, with boundary assistance and room/cabin gain, I'm surprised to see compression in a sweep that would be well under reference level in the LFE channel with dual pb16s.
105db at 20hz with dual PB16Us (in room) seems low(?)
You are comparing cea2010 burst tests to compression testing, that's not apples to apples. The keyword there is "burst". Those are very short term peak numbers at a given frequency. You'd be better off comparing the long term output sweeps that Audioholics has posted in their review. They are more similar to compression sweeps that I showed. You will see compression in the long term output sweeps as well.
But yes, the room also plays a roll. The thing to focus on, is that all subwoofers were measured in the same spot in my room. Therefore, they will all have the same room and room issues to deal with. Except in the case of the PB16's, there were 2 subwoofers in the room, 1 in the front right and 1 beside my left speaker. They had the advantage over all the other subwoofers measured, because I was comparing 2 of them to single subwoofers.
Fair enough,but even in their long term sweeps a single PB16U was hitting around 108dB at 20hz without compression measured at 2m outdoors .
Ive been in a fairly large home cinema with dual PB16Us and they definitely were nowhere near their limits at anything under reference level.
Anyway, not meant to be a knock at your video, just surprised at how little low bass room gain you get.
I have 3 x sealed subs (Seaton Submersives) and get tonnes of room gain under about 25hz.
@@jamiet74 My room is open at the back to the rest of the house. I have a 4 level split home, and the only level that can be closed off from the rest is the basement. So you're right, my room is the eater of bass lol.
@@SpecOfTech
Oh well yeah 😂 open to a 4 level split home will definitely do that!
I'm in a sealed room and have the opposite problem,I have to shelve down the under 30hz bass with the Low Frequency Adjust dial on the subs or it's just way too much
I don’t think you have to go through the process of finding the max measurement in the video. Just pull them before and throw up the comparison. We trust ya.
Haha I appreciate your trust my friend. I wish that you spoke for everyone. I would 100% be called out if I didn't show that. There are some serious fanboys out there lol. Thanks again bud...cheers.
To be honest your compression level picks seem useless. You throw away 5db of completely usable output for the PB16s, and we never actually see meaningful compression in the graph. I'm not sure this is an accurate test.
I was strict on all the subs for compression, not just on SVS. That's what compression testing is, what is the max output of the subwoofer before it compresses. To keep it simple, I don't allow any compression FOR ALL THE SUBS. That way I can't have someone come on here and question it...yet here you are. If these measurements disappointed you, it's only because of your own internal bias towards SVS. Cheers!
@SpecOfTech Absolutely no bias for SVS on my part. You just never showed a line with meaningful compression, and then decided to throw out another 5db for some reason. Saying there is compression for any of the subs, and not actually showing it is not useful at all, and doesn't lend to credibility.
@@ChihuAudioMan 5DB? Where do you get that number from? The lines are in 3db increments. Look at the line, the compression is visible. Again, I used the same criteria for all subs, so it truly is fair.
Saying you have no bias towards SVS, while arguing on the behalf of SVS, is not useful, and doesn't lend to your credibility.
There has been an overwhelmingly positive response to this video, and the viewers found these measurements useful/helpful, including me. You seem to be the only one questioning credibility, when the same criteria was applied to all subwoofers. That does seem to show some bias...just saying!
Have a good one...cheers!
@@SpecOfTech I'm not saying the TW subs aren't a good value, and deep performance is amazing. But if you critically look at your graph values, you eliminate any SVS line that drops below 3.0db increment, and call that compression, however if you look at all the TW lines, almost none of them actually increment in 3.0db values, and most are 2.25 or 2.5 even the lower lines. Yet, you keep all of them except the very top one. If your 3.0db criteria for compression holds up, why is that allowed on the TW's?
@@ChihuAudioMan It wasn't allowed, and it's a good thing the video is proof of that. You're just reaching to try and prove your point. You're welcome for the data, do with it what you will. I'm sorry your favorite didn't do as well as you thought it would. Have good day!
so cheap over there--- is australia these are all 2 to 3 times that price
you may want to consider renaming your title to "Graphs galore: subwoofer shootout." or similar. Then, that would attract to audio geeks. for those folks as myself who never understood these graphs, maybe give a quick tutorial on how to read them. this would be inline to us cars guys who can read a Tach gauge on a car to know the health of an engine.
another way to put it,....if you're going to talk calculus but I only pass algebra, well,...
BTW, I found only one distributor in SoCal. I maybe at their mercy.
thanks anyway.
The biggest takeaway here isn't the output but the roll offs. Not only does the tone winners dig deeper but I've never previously noticed SVS has such a bad top roll off at 70db.
Is that common or just a null they happen to have in your room? The tone winners based on those measurements would cross over for none LFE bass far better than SVS. JTR was the same, null after 70. Yet the tone winners don't experience the same null?
Thanks for turning me onto the brand.
Upgraded from the pb-3000 to PB16.
Pb obviously amazing below 25hz but the pb3000 definitely has better mid bass.
Interested in how the PB 17 will compare.
Looks pretty impressive.
JTR in the future.
I just bought this as a replacement for my dead PSA sub, so I'm hoping to find out by Halloween or Friday.
@ Nice, let us know how it sounds.
@@jake-jp3vb Just got it in this morning and been playing around with it. It sounds freaking fantastic so far. I know a lot of people use Edge of Tomorrow as a gauge, at least for chuffing issues or anything like that on the ports. Absolutely ZERO chuffing. Handles everything I've thrown at it so far like a champ. Honestly too? At least for my purposes I don't see a need to a get a 2nd. I'd say so far, the PSA sub might have been a little louder? But, this one is DEFINITELY tighter and more controlled on the bass. I've never noticed that attribute that well before with subs. I do with this one, especially after I changed polarity to negative. Much much much tighter bass. Nothing boomy. Nothing that the sub with normal mode where it can't hit the low extension of what I'm playing. Daredevil's heartbeat intro hits perfectly (which was an issue with a previous SVS sub I had). Black Sails' battles sound fantastic. Going to play a few videogames here.
So far, it's a huge winner in my book. Hopefully it has longevity. I don't want to have to worry about replacing it for at least 10 years.
Gameplay with it is great so far. Been playing the new Dragon Age. Everything hits as it should. From this point on, I think all I'm worried about is longevity. Won't be able to quote on that at least until a few months to a few years have passed. If it lasts 6 months with no issues, then at the VERY least, the build quality beats the ever living shit out of the PSA sub(s) I had.
Also, is my comment literally the ONLY current review of this sub? I can't find ANYONE else reviewing it. It's freaking great. SVS, quote me on that. As long as this sub lasts me at least 10 years, I will never buy outside of SVS again. This thing hits hard. The only drawback so far is that it's not as loud as the PSA sub I had. That had a bit more oomph to it, but it's a wonderful trade-off I will gladly accept if this thing lasts longer than the PSA sub(s) I had. By "a bit", I'm probably saying maybe 3db. Maybe. But that's me just saying random shit that I don't fully know about. It's a guess. I just know there's a noticeable difference in volume. They shake everything the same, but volume is different. I'm not sure at all in comparison to Tonewinners, but for what I need, this works, and it does it effortlessly. I'll update my review as months go on. So far, this compared to PSA TV18F-M? That sub gets a 9.5/10 originally, but ends with me giving it a 6.5/10 (points off for build quality/longevity - which is horrible), this gets a 9/10 (only a point off so far for volume difference). And the PSA review is generous. I'm almost leaning toward a 5/10 overall just for longevity/build quality issues. If I were being a terrible reviewer, I'd actually give it 3/10, but I want to give a more honest review.
SVS PB17 so far: 9/10 (and ENTIRELY DEPENDS ON LONGEVITY)
PSA TV18F-M: 6.5/10 (longevity/build quality DESTROYED this brand for me - I will NEVER buy from them again... I'd actually buy from Yamaha again before I buy from PSA)
In comparison against its own?
SVS PB17 so far: 9/10 (and ENTIRELY DEPENDS ON LONGEVITY)
SVS PB12-Plus: 6/10 (was a decently good upgrade originally, but couldn't handle deep bass well enough and had chuffing issues)
In comparison against the only other sub I've owned?
SVS PB17 so far: 9/10 (and ENTIRELY DEPENDS ON LONGEVITY)
Yamaha shitty sub from 20+ years ago (not remembering the model): 3/10 (it was an okay starter kit - that's the best I can give it)
Going from what I originally had 20+ years ago to today? I don't ever need to go to a theater again, let's put it that way.
@@whoacarhJust wait until the break in period expires 👌
Had to wait about a month for my pb16 to stretch.
@@jake-jp3vb What did you notice after a month exactly?
People should keep in mind the SVS PB 16 is a 2016 Sub
Yes they should. I'm curious to get my hands on their new PB17 to see how it stacks up.
Yes, the PB16 is dated, but it's still available, and price wise is in the same ballpark as the tonewinner subs. There is nothing wrong with showing that there are better subwoofers for the money compared to SVS.
@@SpecOfTech me too.. technology has evolved. It would be nice to see their new technology against others
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Why are using the seven year old PB16? Use the new PB17 for relevance. The PB16 is on closeout for $2199.99. Old technology vs new technology. Make it apples to apples.
Why not use the PB16? It's a subwoofer that a lot of people still own, and is still relevant. I also used to own them, hence why I had the measurements to compare. I hope to get a PB17 in for review and measurements, but I haven't gotten one in yet. Hard for me to compare measurements I don't have 🤷♂️.
The SVS PB16 was still listed at $2900 at the time I recorded this video.
It’s a great comparison based off what he has. The 16 is still available for purchase.
That sub just came out, give dude some time to get it in
Excellent comparison. Price wise they are in the same ballpark. Good to see there is competition and better performing subwoofers for the money coming from lesser known brands. SVS subs are good but a bit overhyped and overrated.