Sansui BA 2000 Part 3 - Testing & Evaluation of Large Value Filter Capacitors
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- Опубликовано: 7 май 2024
- Please note! I made an error when testing with the LC-102 in this video!!!!
I was testing the leakage prior to testing ESR and DA. When testing the leakage, the LC-102 charges the cap to full voltage, tests it and then discharges it through a bleeder resistor and relay contacts. The problem is that the discharge circuit doesn't fully discharge the capacitor under test. Instead, it discharges it to a safe level, but there is still a small residual charge. This affects the ESR and DA tests and can make false readings.
The LC-102 also tests ESR in a different way from other ESR meters. Most testers use a test signal of 100kHz to measure ESR. The LC-102 uses a completely different method. Instead of applying a reference frequency, it applies a regulated power source to the capacitor and then measures the voltage rise in the first microsecond (yes, microsecond!) after applying the source. The ESR is then calculated from the time constant. Sencore was granted a patent on this test circuit. Really cool! You can see, however, if there is ANY charge at all on the cap, it will affect the first microsecond of the charging cycle. Hence, my mistake of not fully discharging the cap before testing. I got ahead of myself. Sorry for any confusion!!! 
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Really enjoying this series, this vid answered so many questions I had about capacitor testing in common sense, down to earth, layman understandable explanation. Thanks for taking the time to make this series Tony.
@ 8:54 You need to do the dielectric absorption test before the leakage test according to the manual ( the manual puts the capacitance test, DA, and then leakage test in that order, most likely to avoid any issues), to get accurate results. Testing for leakage will cause a higher residual charge on the capacitor unless it's discharged for a good period of time, because, the DA test is only using a few volts charge, discharging it, then testing for any DA based recovery. If you hold the DA button down, it will repeatedly cycle through a discharge - charge - discharge and measure cycle over time as well, and you would most likely see it progressively decrease to closer to its more accurate measured value for that unit..
You are correct! I will need to mention that in the next video. Thanks for the reminder!
Man, that LC102, what a wonderful toy.
The dual camera setup is really neat. Very helpful to see what you’re looking at (the meter and power supply) while at the same time watching you manipulate leads or dials. I didn’t understand earlier what you were trying to do, I get it now. Thanks. 👍👍👍
I thought this would be a dry, boring rehash of stuff I already knew, but (since I don’t know much), I was pleasantly surprised. I think my attention really perked up when you switched to the power supply + meter testing as even I can to that kind of testing. The comparison of electrolytic, paper foil, and film capacitors was illuminating. Finally, bringing out the old Triplett meter warmed my heart, as I have the same model, and using it was how I first learned how to check capacitors. I had to back up the video to check your meter settings, as I didn’t remember you saying that the Ohm meter needs to be set to its highest range. Good job. And as I mentioned separately, love the dual-views available in the new camera setup.
That was very useful, thanks - it hadn't struck me that I could measure capacitor leakage using a bench power supply and a multimeter! 😃
Using my LC102 I’ve noticed that testing dielectric absorption after capacitor leakage reads higher. Try to reverse the order of measurement, you’ll notice the difference. Nice video as ever 👍
I just completely recapped a pair of Kenwood L05m mono blocks and used F&T 12,000uf 100v caps ($30 each) made in germany and very happy with the performance/sound of these. These can be found at partsconnexion. The amps are back to being lighting fast now.
When doing a leakage test on an LC77/102/103 on a higher value capacitor I have often felt that the time it takes to go from Bad to Good can also be a good indicator of how much inrush current may happen because of it decreased state or age and need of reforming. It's amazing how the age ratings for a capacitor often apply whether in a circuit or on a shelf.
Concept, Concentration, Common Sense and Control! = Experience. Thanks for your time and skills.
Perfect timing. Just what I needed right now. Thanks
DigiKey or Mouser stock them for sure. I replace the 4 of them every 10 years. It may be an overkill, but having sunk $14,000 into the system is worth it to me.
BTW- That's just the main woofer CAPs in the two cabinets.
Hello Tony from Meaford Ontario Canada :Tony I own a The Capacitor Wizard and it's great however I always was told by electronic repair person s that any equipment over thirty years old must always replace the electrolytic capacitor s as they are like tires on a car ,I replaced my Sansui Receiver model 7000 s Elna filter caps with Mundorf MLytic filter capacitors and one AudioNote cap and also an F&T cap and the performance increase was marvelous! ....I now restored the pre amp with Elna Cerophyn caps AudioNote Kaisi caps and Nichicon Fine Gold WOW WOW WOW INCREDIBLE SOUND OUTSTAND ING INCREASE IN SONIC SIGNATURE, Tony even though my old Elna caps measure ok I'm not going to use them however should I keep them are they worth anything to purist restoration people. ..thanks Tony awesome videos
thank you for this video tony, that is a lovely sencore tester
....especially when you remember the correct way to use it ;)
Ever notice how large oil HV capacitors in storage always have the terminals shorted with wire (or they should). You probably have seen them in your X-ray machines travels, me in broadcast transmitters. They can develop dangerous levels of HV from DA.
TONY THANK YOU FOR YOUR VIDEOS. I WANT TO SAVE ONE OF YOUR VIDEOS THAT HAS YOU CLEANING ROTARY WAFER SWITCHES THE BEST WAY TO GET THE TARNISH OFF THAT DOESNT HURT THE SURFACE.OF THE SWICH AND PROTECTS IT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR REPLY!
There is rust spray on treatment in the paint dept. Of big boxes. Neutralizes the rust and leaves a black paintable finish
Tony, I have seen a few manufacturers use the expression for leakage: 0.01VC after one minute as the edge for good or bad. For 12,000 µF 63V that is 7.5 mA. Of course you don't want to get there. Once near that they are on their way out.
Tony , I use Vector Network Analyzer - Bode 100. You can measure all kinds, of passive components , those instruments you use can't characteriz any parameters over frequency 👋👋👋👋👋👋👋👋
DA and ESR seem to test differently directly after the leakage test is performed on my LC102. I tend to test in this order. Value, ESR, DA, Leakage.
We will have to get you a pressure washer! LOL I have a Marantz 2220b and I restored it cosmetically and it looks like a museum piece and sounds great. Do you think I should replace the filter caps? I can get two brand new Nichicons for $20.00.
good video tony
@xraytonyb another great video! For the budget minded hobbyist (tightwad) do you have a suggested test tool for capacitors? I recently was chatting with a seasoned tech and I said I rarely find bad ones. He said it's because my equipment is crap. I have a multimeter, LCR-TC1 and MSER-100 but none test under high voltages. Thanks!
I have found that you can do a prelim check only with basic MM and ESR/LCR meters. For instance some rely on quick ESR testing but I have found many older caps especially will test fine ESR but be way out of tolerance and or leaky. It's usually a choice of just replace them all while you're there or invest in the higher end test gear. Setting up your own current test system like shown in the video can be an inexpensive way to test that., Even then it can become like chick sexing. You kind of get a feel for what your equipment may be hinting at. Also it depends on what you want to do and where the cap is located. Audio pass/shunt or ripple shunting.
I have also found that oddly when a capacitor reads Over value on my meters it tends to mean it's on a path to death soon.
Interesting. Do you ever use the XJWO1 LCR meter that you reviewed a few years ago. I did get one and seems to work well enough for a hobbyist.
Excellent! Thanks!
Tape was to hold the cap strap into place during assembly, so yes it was original. I have had a few NOS caps, all same batch and value, with one being absolutely perfect in all parameters after a day reforming, and the others all failing or leaked.
Those leakage values seem to be fine for these very large caps. Anything under 2.5mA is good. According to NICHICON for alu. caps larger than 1000uF the acceptable leakage should be less than 3*sqrt(C*V) after 5 minutes of applied voltage, unless it is a special low leakage cap.
I find testing capacitors and inductors a confusing exercise when measuring say crossover components. How do I know the value I measure is going to relate to a manufacturer's component value that will have been measured in a different way? The values of these components appear to be a very movable feast.....
9:50 The tested ESR of 0.46 ohms seems high for that large of capacitor. I am looking at a chart for 100kHz frequency being used and it is more like around 0.04 ohms or less. Does that tester use a different frequency?
I also came up with a maximum leakage current of 4500 micro amps (4 mA) @ 63v.
That was a user error on my part. I was testing the leakage prior to testing ESR and DA. When testing the leakage, the LC-102 charges the cap to full voltage, tests it and then discharges it through a bleeder resistor and relay contacts. The problem is that the discharge circuit doesn't fully discharge the capacitor under test. Instead, it discharges it to a safe level, but there is still a small residual charge. This affects the ESR and DA tests and can make false readings.
As for the 100kHz test frequency, most testers use a test signal of 100kHz to measure ESR. The LC-102 uses a completely different method. Instead of applying a reference frequency, it applies a regulated power source to the capacitor and then measures the voltage rise in the first microsecond (yes, microsecond!) after applying the source. The ESR is then calculated from the time constant. Sencore was granted a patent on this test circuit. Really cool! You can see, however, if there is ANY charge at all on the cap, it will affect the first microsecond of the charging cycle. Hence, my mistake of not fully discharging the cap before testing. I got ahead of myself.
Thanks for the comment!
DE-5000 can't measure that high of a capacitance at higher frequencies, manufacturers website has a table showing the limits. To measure ESR of high value capacitors at any frequency you can use "Rs" measurement.
Actually, I switched it to "Cs". It defaults to "Cp" when you manually select capacitance test. Even at 100kHz, it will test the capacitance, but at higher frequencies, electrolytics will read progressively low.
@@xraytonyb With capacitance test you can't measure ESR of high capacitance values at higher frequencies. If you use "Rs" (Resistance series) you can measure ESR of every capacitor (and other components as well) at any of the frequencies.
I tried it out and I see what you're talking about. When I set the DE-5000 to "Cs" mode, it will measure ESR of large caps at 100kHz, but only at a resolution of 10 milliohms. When I set it to "Rs", it gave an extra digit of resolution, allowing it to read down to 1 milliohm. Thanks for the tip!
I've never heard that before. What is a spudger? Look like a screwdriver Maybe?
In simplest form, a non marring pry tool.
There's different types.
I use an aviation non marring tool for auto trim work. Cell phone repair techs have smaller types, many made of nylon.
I have never figured out why the ESR sometimes shows as a negative number. It seems to be more consistent if I zero the leads right before the test.
i tought my esr meter is broken.. allways had negative values on certain caps and stopped using it
I think new caps are no longer formed at the factory (probably to same money) and need a voltage applied in circuit.
HI Tony ,Wil you expect the same results with the old EICO 950B Capacitor Tester? Regards
The 950B will yesy leakage at full voltage, but it doesn't give the value in milli/micro amps. It just shows the eye-tube open or close. It will, however, give a similar result by showing the eye open after the cap charges, if there is no leakage.
Eastwood chassis black, or another epoxy paint
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Switch the DER EE to Rs 100kHz to compare ESR
I don't believe there is anyone who could listen to that amp with either set of caps and tell the difference. I find all of the audiophoolery types as really sad individuals who should have paid attention in school and learned some basic science....cheers.
Hi Tony! What about aplying the nominal voltage to the capacitor, and then measuring the power delivered with that charge?
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