You explain it so well Dr. C, forgiveness is not about saying what they have done to you is ok, it’s about detaching yourself from their toxicity and moving on in a healthy way with your life.
To me, real forgiveness is two way. I would want an apology and some kind of retribution from the perpetrator. If not that, it is on me to be understanding but yet realize it is not in my realm to fix it and best to wash hands of them. That will hopefully let them know there are consequences to their behavior. Consequences are reactions opposite of what they are trying to get you to do. That will let them know "it does not work" because they are all about conscious manipulation to control others, namely you. Another example is if they are bullies, praise the opposite behaviors in their victims.
@I was with the master narcissist and went through so much trauma with him and I grew strong enough to walk away and found forgiveness for him and of course not with an apology. I can only smile now because I know we reap what we sew and his time will come .
How do you forgive when he abused his son. Enabled , emotionally my son felt he was Not good enough - I do blame x for death of my son. Three years today
@@SUSANPOLLARD-h5n When I was a teenager I had an out-of-body experience during an operation. I felt more alive hovering over my body than I ever did here on earth. It was as though I had taken off my costume and had left the stage. The sense of relief was enormous. When I found myself back in my body I thought, “Oh sh:t!” I remember that feeling very clearly. My point is… There is no “death.” There is life in the truest sense of the word waiting for us. I believe we are all here in this earth school to learn particular lessons and evolve our soul. I apologize for offending anyone here who has contrary beliefs. I do not wish to offend. I wanted to say this to you because, in my opinion, such grief and emotion as I hear in your post does not have to be. ☮️ ☮️ ☮️
For 8 years I sat with constant forgiveness. And then I got angry. Very, very, very angry, for 2 years. I had to experience the depths of pain I had suffered through in being married to a covert narcissist, the years of abuse, gaslighting, smear campaigns, and on and on. They are still human, capable of sharing good moments and love. But in my experience, joy is 5% of the time with a narcissist, and the abusive behaviour is the larger part. I am still dealing with anger, and still married. But now I release it for my own health, my happiness is not determined by his behaviour. That is a hard journey, because while marriage isn't easy it not supposed to be abusive and toxic. I don't know that I will stay married for the rest of my life- certainly it is a hellish roller coaster. But- I can forgive, and I can live my own life and find joy in the Lord, in nature, and in the people and things that bring me peace.
I feel that we are in the same boat! I have been married for almost 33 years to a passive aggressive covert narcissist. Seven year s ago we were separated for a year and I had so much peace. But the holidays were approaching and I didn’t want my adult children to have to choose and I got reminiscent. I forgave him, went through counseling (mostly to address his NPD) and have been back with him for seven years now. Many times since, I have wished I had not reconciled. I do not trust him after all and the craziness continues.. Sometimes I feel so badly, I don’t want to be around other people and burden them with my troubles, as I find it hard to fake it when I feel like this. I have continued to trusted in the Lord through all of this and he is giving me strength; but I am now praying for him to give me a clear sign to release me from this marriage. I have many reasons to believe there has been adultery, but I cannot prove it. What is your name? Can we pray for each other? 🙏❤️
As an adage goes: To err is human, to forgive is divine. I've been narc free for a year now, thanks to you Dr. C. As what you've said, radical acceptance is the key and forgiveness will emancipate a person from the hurt.
For me, the word "forgive" has too many unrealistic connotations. I like the word you used instead, detatch. I can do that and have in a very healthy way. With years, I can now do this. Healing with therapy and time has made this possible.
I agree. I don’t think I have it in me to forgive him for 42 years of abuse that impacted my children as well as me, but I do want to work on detachment. That is something I feel is achievable for me.
In my opinion, I think that there's two types of forgiveness. There is the forgiveness to where the offended lets go of the offense(s), move forward and a relationship can be repaired. Then there's the forgiveness to where the offended allows themselves to let go of the anger, bitterness and resentment and moves on with the understanding that the relationship cannot be repaired. This type of forgiveness enables a person to accept what has happened, to let go, to heal the hurt and the anger and to move forward. It's really hard to let it go but at the end of the day it's about healing deep pain and moving forward. At the end of the day it's about healing, growing, moving forward and living your best life! Dr. Carter you are right!
I am voting yes for myself and NO for depravity and evil! Thank you dr Carter.
14 часов назад+10
If they do not ask for forgiveness denied. If they do ask, deny. call them out and abandon them. worked on everyone of tge toxic reprobates in my life. become indifferent takes time. Thank you Dr.Carter. you helped me heal.
I appreciate how you said 1. "after you examine the evidence" and 2. "eliminate bitterness and hate". And the clarified the difference between "assertiveness" and "aggressiveness" ... thank you.
You payed it forward, my community rules, you folks save my soul, plus yes , the light , forgive me , for turning ugly, thank you Dear Lord , for my struggles, I'm with go team healthy, my Doctor, shares peace and harmony, you did this Lord, you or here, watchin, we like Doctor Carter, plus yes buddy, his guest, his staff, and the folks in the other channel, yes sir, I went to miss Kerry, and , you red bloods or much great help for our well being@@lishmahlishmah
100% like the way you think. I share these videos and tell people that will listen. I keep talking about my healing and who is helping me. Its free, but u must pay attention. Several wonderful coaches on YT.
For me it's been a case of working out what makes my ex tick (covert narcissist) and why she is the way she is. I can then begin to understand things better, and see the patterns. It does nothing to remove the shame I feel at what I allowed her to reduce me to, and the impact it's had on me and my kids - but it *does* help me to let it go. Once understood, although it makes her behaviour no less reprehensible - it allows me to think it's pointless to hold that anger, in the same way it would be pointless to be angry at a shark for eating all the fish you put it in a tank with, or a lion for eating a prey animal. It's instinctive - it's what they do. They are hardwired and driven to act like that. I guess it's not forgiveness, I'm not sure I have that in me as I feel like I've had fifteen years stolen from me and I'm too old to rebuild now - but it is like acceptance, and a kind of peace made with it.
Forgiveness and repentance go hand in hand. Repentance has change in the heart, but the narcissist heart is so subconsciously emotionally stuck in entitlement and control, that it's never going to repent. To them, it's forgive and forget. That's not how forgiveness works. Hurt has being done and not forgotten as trust is the focas.
I have eventually been able to “forgive”(?) all of the narcissists that have passed through my life. I think this is because I have also developed extremely strong boundaries and I no longer have anything to do with them or want to have anything to do with them. So I am free to live my life now. I don’t even want the baggage in my head of thinking about them - or acknowledging their existence. If I have to interact with one I keep it extremely formal and impersonal. It is true that any concept of forgiveness is much more about freeing yourself, than the other person.
I say dont carry responsibility for them.Let them own their story.Thats forgiving, because you aren't burdened, and allowing them to own their actions and words. Thats actually a favor for both of you. Highest good.
Does God forgive the unrepentant? Doesn't He require acts benefiting repentance? You're not likely to get that from a narcissist. I don't think people understand forgiveness. You can achieve radical acceptance and even get to the place where you are no longer tormented by their continued attempts to destroy you and others. God doesn't require you to sign up for more abuse.
Anger can be part of the grieving process and stages of grief. As we work through those stages, forgiveness may come as part of acceptance as one of the later stages of grief. I am grieving the loss of a long term, but very abusive marriage, in which I gave my entire self for 46 years, and moving through those stages.
The question of forgiveness can feel like asking a Holocaust survivor to have the guards over for dinner. Unless it is unavoidable in life situations, no one should be expected to associate with their abuser. It would be heroic if the victim can eventually get past the experience & have a happy life.
I want to be free of any feelings of anger, at anyone. I must forgive myself first. Working on this daily. Stop hissing when I look in the mirror. Dignity, Respect, Civility. GO Team Healthy!
The anger is a part of the detachment process, breaking the trauma bond. I view it as a wonderful thing when we can FINALLY get angry enough to not forgive (for a while anyway). In these relationships we have forgiven and forgiven and forgiven so many times. When we're finally pushed to the point where we're no longer so quick to forgive the narcissist, that honestly feels like a miracle. I wouldn't beat up anyone for being angry over the narcissistic abuse they've suffered. They're more than capable of forgiveness, and they'll forgive their abuser when they're good and ready.
Interesting. I apologized and apologized and bent and knelt so many times, which is NOT the process of forgiveness. If only ONCE there would have been the contrite response after the confusing display of rage/outrage/emotional vomit.....I would love to have heard the words "I was so wrong, and I am sorry" Please forgive me? But the N never accepted any part of their bad behavior. They simply re-loaded and brought a bright smile and a new edge, with a crevasse for me to fall into (to be blamed again)
after 35 years of narcissistic abuse from so many , I can't imagine feeling human ever again. but I do know that I do not want these horrible individuals in my life , & I'm actively fixing that situation.
This is a companionate presentation on forgiveness. Often this subject is forced on people especially in churches without giving people the time and grace to process and heal from the severe trauma. Thank you Dr. Carter and I’m glad to be a part of Team Healthy. 🙏🏾
It's important to remember that forgiveness is something we do for ourselves. Much like boundaries, regardless of what the person wronging us does, it's our principles that matter. The process of forgiving is one of self-work and doesn't need to involve them at all.
It took me 10 years before my ex’s voice stopped making the hair on the back of my neck stand up. 26 years married to him. But, then I went & unknowingly, married another narcissist. Now, 22 years later, I’m stuck in “should I stay or should I go” mode. It’s torture. He had a rage attack in early December, throwing the bed pillows at me so hard they actually hurt (it was only 2 weeks after a full hip replacement). Several hours later, he sincerely apologized (why I still believe him, who knows?) & an hour later, he tried to make it my fault. I brought it up yesterday & he had no recollection of the event. I don’t believe he’s forgotten it. But he wants me to believe he’s forgotten it. Life with a narcissist is not only challenging, but confusing, maddening, frustrating……… etc!!
They can hurt you both emotionally and physically and the next day they behave as if it never happened. If you try to talk about it you will be gaslighted or told you’re overreacting.
Forgiveness isn't healthy for unforgivable things. Forgiving people for torturing kids isn't healthy, it's enabling and gaslighting. Disconnecting from sadistic people and ways doesn't require forgiveness.
Isn't indifference towards them better than forgiveness? Certain narcissists take forgiveness as a licence to continue to harm you. I know that personally from experience.
My experience was that psychological separation, along with understanding the reason for my husband's dysfunction and applying the behaviors Dr. C teaches, allowed forgiveness to occur without the physical separation. Our relationship changed. He still wasn't well but the toxicity went way down. I was hoping this was also good for him, allowing him some time to heal.
Forgiveness doesn't mean reconciliation. I would never forget how i was treated by them but i dont want to hold on to the anger . The relationship is already over at that point.
Here's my take on forgiving the narc. I had a 30-year relationship with a narc husband. Lots of emotional and psychological abuse and neglect. I have forgiven him to the point of setting myself free so that I will not carry or even think of retallion. God says, vengeance is mine! So I leave that to God. I strongly believe we reap what we sow. He will get his, but that's not my responsibility. (Liberation) I also believe I am free to think that he is a despicable person. If that is wrong for me to do, God will settle that with me. In the meantime, I would like to share this statement I read somewhere: "In a world that hasn't been kind, I choose to embrace the happiness I've earned." Author unknown
I've heard some good stuff over the years: "Resentment is like drinking a poison and expecting the person who hurt you to die. " - 12 Step Recovery " Forgive but don't forget, it's wise to forgive, foolish to forget" - My Grandfather & Mom " I have to work on it daily like my alcoholism/addiction " -12 step "Don't take the bait" My Dad. Thanks for the reminder Dr. Carter. Great video.
I have a few narcissists in my circle. One in particular is more than I can handle and still be civil. What has happened for me is I set a boundary, in fact there is distance, in miles, that makes boundary setting easier. That distance has given me the ability to forgive her for the way she is. She will never change, never. Giving myself permission to keep my distance for the benefit of my own sanity is my perogative. It's better than lowering myself to being critical of her behavior, to her face.
Forgiveness is for giving... not for the abuser but more for the abused. Forgiveness releases the victim freeing up energy and blocked potential. Then again, there is value in NOT forgiving. Not forgiving the abuser can help the abused get in touch with a sense of power that was previously suppressed. Not forgiving someone (although it has helped getting the housework done faster) is useful until it's no longer needed...then I let go. Detaching is well said. Thank you Dr C🥰
I say that you can forgive ... Just do it privately. These people will never change their ways and will take your forgiveness as another opportunity to walk all over you. You give an inch, and they'll take 10 miles, and then you're back to square one with them. Narcs don't seek reconciliation-- they always seek dominance and control. I don't want revenge on my narc in-laws that I have gone no contact with. I wish them no ill will or misfortune to fall on them. I just want to be left alone and left at peace.
Only the forgiving are qualified to receive forgiveness. That may be because the unforgiving would not receive forgiveness and will continue to do harm. Stay Healthy!!
I chose forgiveness . I also chose me and to walk away. Forgiveness is like wearing a royal robe of love everyday. Walking in the spirit of love radiates liberty and light. I am free . I am not them cruel and bitter. I am kind and free.
One point: You forgive for YOURSELF and YOUR mental health - not theirs. It's how you let go and walk away from a no-win situation. And yeah, that's harder than hell. As someone says a couple of posts below, it's about emancipation. Yours - not theirs.
In my case, I forgave, but I have definitely did not forget. I went completely no contact 8 years ago. I happened to run into them (a couple with N wife) two weeks ago unexpectedly and with my boundaries completely up, I inquired how it was going and the response was very much like a gaslight and history reframe to which I silently listened to with no reaction from myself at all. *I* *know* *the* *truth* *that* *I* *need* *for* *my* *internal* *closure* (i.e. snowballs chance in hell at reconciliation). Now I am back toward radical acceptance and complete no contact... BTW, Dr. Carter, you need to know that you helped me through this big time! I do not think that I can thank you enough! I send my blessings and good wishes.
Have you ever had a burger so AMAZING that you want everyone you know to try it? Even people you’ve just recently met? You just want to see the smile on their face after they taste it. You didn’t make the burger, so you really have nothing to gain or lose. And if they’d prefer to remain hungry, that’s ok, too. You just know that they are missing out. That burger is forgiveness.
Forgiveness. *Problem 1* This is a crucial topic for which I would like to see professionals (psychologists) enter churches, synagogues, mosques (etc) and held very in deep classes for pastors, priests (etc) in order to teach them the most accurate discernment between normal relationships and pathological abusive relationships. Even though the major religious institutions have their own graduate psychologists and therapists, etc... unfortunately the level of knowledge of these problems is very low. Sometimes non existent. They really know only 2 situations > normal relationships > violent physical abuse Usually, even though they can have some written documents and information, they have no experience (and they are not trained) for dealing with other abusive and devastating relationships. So, people asking for help mostly receive non-helpful responses. For example, we can receive the wrong explanation of forgiveness, not exactly applicable to our specific cases. (It's not because the pastor or priest doesn't know "the doctrine". It's because they don't know narcissistic abuse)
But their schooling is long and in depth. Why should they not know? They have the whole study of the Bible and Theology. There is a disconnect then. They say how we are to treat one another and our children but they hear confessions of all and watch it all unfold. Laity can be poorly catechized but to those with much are expected more? Interested in your thoughts. 🕯✨️
@well_weathered *Yes, there is a disconnect, definitely.* In my opinion, firstly because they see the relationship like a normal one with some problems. They don't see the fact that it is an abnormal relationship 24/7 Or they don't know how to deal with it. The "how to" part is probably still not taught to our pastors. This is one of the main gaps we have today in the Catholic Church. Again, my personal opinion. There is also a disconnect with this ⬇️ "Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay" (Note for non Cath. > this is not "divorce") . This is leaving = separation. In other words, in today's psychological popular terms it is the No Contact, indeed. And they have been reading it in the Canon Law for years / decades. Meaning, they know that these situations are there. And the situations are there even if the spouse don't leave or can't leave. This is the point they are not informed or trained enough. Last but not least, [btw, this thing was also said by Benedict XVI , in religious terms, still it was said in important interviews] the gap of studies about nullity of marriage in light of new knowledge about personality disorders and the actual immaturity of a person who is unable to make mature promises with a mature Faith. Actually, today we have causes of matrimonial nullity even for less serious reasons than the above ones. Absolutely, there is a serious disconnect about all this.
Forgiveness is overrated when it comes to abuse. In my mind, I have accepted I was targeted by people who have personality disorders and now that I'm gone from their lives they will keep on targeting more people, as it is in their nature. It was a fatality that I was the one targeted back then. But to forgive them? Not necessary. I just accept their nature and move on.
Forgive? Nah. Perhaps it's only a fine point, but there won't ever be forgiveness from me. What I understood recently is the dismissive, controlling, unkind things he did and said to me while we were together were like error patterns on a math worksheet. He had incomplete and incorrect understanding, with no skills. Therefore he continued to make the same errors over and over. I don't need to figure out where his understanding broke down and I'm not responsible for his making those errors (though he always told me I was). What I can say to myself is, "Oh, he makes repeated errors. I'm not interested in participating in those errors. He can't perceive he made any errors, and so they'll just keep happening. That's boring." I walked away. I no longer make it mean anything about me.. I was the neutral math homework sheet.
Forgiveness isn't about tolerating their behavior or even for them, it's for you and with the understanding that these people actually do have a true development disorder. That's the truth. Their behavior very sincerely isn't personal. I always say....they hate everyone equally and without bias. That's the truth. I forgave my ex when I remind myself that rather than look at his outward appearance (a grown man) to remind myself to imagine visually seeing him in his truestest form....a 17-19 year old boy looking back at me. Then I am like....oh yeah, true, he truly is just a 10yr old in a man's body/form. I think these are exactly all the same behaviors....no appreciation, always asking for more, no logic or reasoning, temper tantrums, no boundaries, keep arguing and fighting, always want the last word, bullies, emotionally dysregulated, why the dire need to not be alone and without a mommy or daddy figure, or other people to do things pay for them as they can't do so themselves, multiple little girlfriends/playmates, etc.
It's not Hatred, it's fear of Repeats, therefore victim is left waiting for the next dish of abuses, because if abuser strikes once, what's to stop them from Repeating said abuses. The Trust has clearly been trampled.Obviously victim has been left with any security has been shattered.
Sounds like the mom pushing for forgiveness is the same one who made her daughter a doormat and made her believe healthy anger is bad and sinful and women should always be nice good forgiving girls. The daughter needs to self validate her anger and learn from it. Healthy anger is a great signal to protect oneself from dangerous boundary violations and dangerous people. Once we accept our healthy anger and follow through on it taking action to protect ourselves, it naturally disappears. If we don't embrace healthy anger, it reinforces feeling powerless and keeps us being nice to abusers and it simmers below and then can turn into bitterness and resentment. The mother needs to step away and stop judging her daughter and start loving her. One genuine unconditional supportive hug from her mother instead of endless expectations and advice on what to feel and who to be would go a long way to curing the actual problem - that the daughter didn't feel loved and didn't learn to love herself enough and didn't feel supported and validated by her mother in being powerful and saying no to abusers. Once the daughter feels empowered, she moves on with her life and forgiveness, detachment, even forgetting appear naturally.
Some of the things that my Ex narcissist husband did to me over many years are unforgivable, and in 40 years I don't think he ever said 'I'm Sorry' once with any meaning behind it.
When my Higher Power was working on me for forgiving/amends with someone I was in the shower listening to a Sinead O'Connor CD.. There was a point in the song where it said "I should have hatred for you but I do not have any" that the CD stopped and started the song over and stopped at that spot for 6 times.. I got the message and that was the beginning of the forgiving/amends process.. The next part was to tell the person that I was working on forgiving/amends with them and that what ever happened was between me and my Higher Power and you and your Higher Power.. Then there was court stuff and business stuff with them and all that was between me and my Higher Power..
I don’t trust the narcissist, but I will forgive him because I don’t want him to hold over me what he has in his heart. How can I love others and be friends with them if I keep the anger from him and I really don’t trust him won’t trust him no better, but I just keep as much away from him as possibleso I can have peace and be me
Anger and initial feelings of aggression can be the first step to heal; natural human emotions. I don´t think you need to be afraid of these reactions. On the contrary - to supress them can be unhealthy. Accept, and give yourself the right to be upset! Thus it will pass and you can stand up tall.
Forgiveness is a good way to start because forgiving is for yourself, your mental and physical health. But forgiving is always a process. First in your heart, you forgive, but that doesn't mean to go back in the relationship. Trust starts when the other person shows they want to change. Especially if that person has done infidelity and did a lot of damage to the relationship. Unusually, a narcissistic personality will say it's all your fault and not look at their own actions and faults. They can't change on their own because they feel they are completely innocent. I was married to someone like that for 33 years and four months. When he left, he would only text me. I told him I had forgiven him. He has not shown any effort to show he was truly sorry for what he did. All he did was talk about the other woman saying how we would be great friends.... etc etc. He was not sorry and was not willing to make a change. Just because someone says they are sorry doesn't mean you should trust them automatically. There are steps to get back to a better relationship and that starts with change of both parties.
❤ Amen you forgive a million times. It’s just what you do. But justice says believe what you see. Believe what you hear. They despise you and seek your harm endlessly.
I have forgiven my deceased mother and that took thirty years. I will not forgive my in laws or step son, nor my sister. Ever. No quarter. Absolutely no forgiveness for evil.
It's tricky, as I know in my case, I was the family scapegoat due to being completely different and an easygoing, mellow child. The whole point of the decades of mistreatment was to train the natural happiness out of me, so I'd be bitter and twisted. It didn't work, even when they sank to seriously heinous depths. Yes, you will have the anger phase of recovery, but if you ultimately reach a point of contentment, where the narcissist is a past chapter that you have no desire to revisit, forgiveness isn't required for healing.
Forgiveness. *Problem 2* Today, [ for reasons I have not yet explored ] many secular people often seems to use the term forgiveness in a much more religiously "extreme" (?) meaning than religious people themselves (priests, pastors, rabbis, etc). As far as I know, considering only the Christian doctrines (I think they all agree), forgiveness basically consists in > first, not doing or planning any retaliation or revenge against the abusers. > Moreover, if/when the victim can decide freely and without any compelling moral obligations, forgiveness also mean that the victim does not request moral compensation for the damages they suffered. Meaning, the victim / survivor may say, okay, the relationship is over, I don't want to have any relations anymore even for any kind of future moral reparation. I don't even expect you say "sorry". I'd have a right to make this request. Still, I want to forgive you. You don't owe me anything. It's over. End of the story. [as far as I know this is the full Christian forgiveness. And, to be precise, for some thinkers, this also goes a bit "further" because the survivor relinquishes the abusers' request for forgiveness]. *What forgiveness is not.* Forgiving is not forgetting what happened [this is humanly impossible] . Forgiving is not going back to the previous situation. Even if you stay in the same house or in some kind of contact with the narcissists, all the terms of the relationship will be completely different. No revenge. No long faces. But I can no longer behave like I used to or trust the narcissist. *Looking forward to hear this Unbound episode with dr C point of view*
So long as she has the kids half the time, and I know she continues to alternate between ignoring them and calling them names, I can't forgive her, until they are free too.
It doesn’t feel right. I constantly am forgiving and moving on(without so much as an explanation/acknowledgement/apology) just to turn around something horrible happens again. I’m such an idiot for staying.
I feel like I was given the opportunity to forgive for less than 24 hours despite my stepMIL's numerous apologies. As soon as boundaries were drawn, she stopped communicating. It's been over 1.5 years of silent treatment from her which has turned into no contact from us.
For me the most important issue is to work on forgiving yourself, for your choices, the things you notice, the things you didnt. 3 years later, still processing everything - other difficulites have slowed healing down, but a little healing work every day really works. The person you are working on being is much more important and healing and your working on the cognitive dissonance that Narc's give you....sych a good video, stick with your new you journey....
I agree absolutely: I don't forgive my ex, after 24 years of manipulating and lying to me. He'd still be hurting me if I let him. But neither do I wish him evil, or try to add to his misery. Why would I? He does that on his own. Most importantly, wishing bad for him would keep me emotionally invested in him, and I want NO further investment or attachment at all. In fact I wish he'd meet a fabulously wealthy old woman with advanced dementia and no heirs. He'd be set for life, she wouldn't know he was using her, and I'd never hear from him again.
It's been 4 years since I went no contact with the narcissist that WAS in my life. They are still trying to hoover me back in. I was the last friend they had. I don't forgive them. Forgiveness is reserved for those who love me and have made a mistake.
For me, I just wish it could all be reversed. I wish I'd known then 6:12 what I know now. I want to get to a place where I don't think about it daily or remember certain incidents so often.
my sons father put us through 'hell', co parenting was so diificult, and although I knew something was off, I just thought he was a dickhead, arrogant and selfish, and just got on with it...losing my place/property in a way, and completely baffled as to why 'our' son gravitated towards him, visting his dad recently seeing although a highly 'intelligent' person, he lived in squalor, and realising the parent alienation facet after 22 years, brought it home that the anger, resentment, grief which I ahve expressed lacks the full understanding of this person having a mental illness...I still feel angry at the conflict/stress/triangualtion caused but in perspective, my son and I are much better connected, and maybe the veil will someday lift from his eyes, but in the meantime, i just feel sorry for his father as he had potential but I see him as empty, a pretender and happy in his own little world, his health not so good, and what it takes to keep up the facade, must be terribly depleting...so yeah, not forgiveness but understanding that he is a broken human being and in a way not his fault! Just makes me feel sad that this insidous 'NPD' is so damaging to so many.
It wasn't easy but I was able to have a decent amount of forgiveness with the help of people like on this channel by learning and accepting who these abusers were Once I learned that it was just their nature it was easier but I didn't have full forgiveness until they passed Its just what it is 😮
With B&W thinking they want the slate to be wiped clean. How many times must that happen? Typically there's never an apology and the patterns of behavior don't change. Like Charlie Brown & Lucy kicking the football. Many equate forgiveness with reconciliation. Apples and oranges. Forgiveness with distancing is very different from restored trust and reconciliation. Protect your peace. Limit contact with abusers and codependents.
My boyfriend has prostate cancer and we are dealibg with his emotional affair with his ex. Hi sais to me "I wont go get treatment and if I die it's on you." He wants me to stop talking about it. These people are monsters. I wont ever forgjve him he did it over and over again.
Sorry, I’m not that big of a person. I will not forgive 60 years of narcissistic abuse. I cut her loose and never looked back. Two years now I’ve had peace. Why would I let that person back in my life? I’m not looking for revenge. I’m just ignoring her.
It depends entirely on a person's definition of 'forgiveness'. The modern definition of forgiveness is 'not holding a grudge'. The Biblical definition of forgiveness is much different. Forgiveness in the Biblical sense is wiping clean the slate. It is as if the sin had never been committed and restores the relationship to the state prior to the offence. But within the Biblical definition, remorse and repentance is a condition to forgiveness. Also, it is conditional on change of behaviour and turning away from that behaviour. If the person does not repent, then you are not obliged to forgive but it is also not Biblical to hold a grudge. So what you can do is give it to God. He is a just God and can take the burden from you, you can rest knowing it will be handled fairly, and you do not need to hold a grudge nor seek revenge. This has given me peace. I also physically removed myself from those who would like to do me harm. When the Bible says forgive, the illustration was of someone begging forgiveness and being refused it. That was not acceptable. It never said to forgive someone who was not sorry.
Forgiving them is interpreted as them having you back under their control. Forgive privately but don’t forget.
I agree with Dr Ramani on this one. Forgiving the Narcissist can actually hurt the victim.
@@NatalieG427 Let them go.
Forgiveness doesn’t mean giving in. It does mean “not seeking revenge”
You explain it so well Dr. C, forgiveness is not about saying what they have done to you is ok, it’s about detaching yourself from their toxicity and moving on in a healthy way with your life.
The more you forgive them, the more they take it for granted.
My N-ex would have no idea I have forgiven. Would probably argue it, if she did. I don’t want to argue.
You leave them or get away from them and then you heal and forgive. There’s so much power in forgiveness
Forgiveness isn’t for them usually they’re not sorry …. Forgiveness is for you
To me, real forgiveness is two way. I would want an apology and some kind of retribution from the perpetrator. If not that, it is on me to be understanding but yet realize it is not in my realm to fix it and best to wash hands of them. That will hopefully let them know there are consequences to their behavior. Consequences are reactions opposite of what they are trying to get you to do. That will let them know "it does not work" because they are all about conscious manipulation to control others, namely you.
Another example is if they are bullies, praise the opposite behaviors in their victims.
@I was with the master narcissist and went through so much trauma with him and I grew strong enough to walk away and found forgiveness for him and of course not with an apology. I can only smile now because I know we reap what we sew and his time will come .
In setting them free, you are setting yourself free.
Agreed. And freedom is wonderful.
How do you forgive when he abused his son. Enabled , emotionally my son felt he was Not good enough - I do blame x for death of my son. Three years today
Yes, I will never become like him. I am radio silent not in my head but where I remember our go back is what the narcissist did to our children
@ It is a process. If you cannot, you cannot. I get it. My concern is not for the abuser/tyrant, but for the one with the loss.
@@SUSANPOLLARD-h5n When I was a teenager I had an out-of-body experience during an operation. I felt more alive hovering over my body than I ever did here on earth. It was as though I had taken off my costume and had left the stage. The sense of relief was enormous. When I found myself back in my body I thought, “Oh sh:t!” I remember that feeling very clearly. My point is… There is no “death.” There is life in the truest sense of the word waiting for us. I believe we are all here in this earth school to learn particular lessons and evolve our soul. I apologize for offending anyone here who has contrary beliefs. I do not wish to offend. I wanted to say this to you because, in my opinion, such grief and emotion as I hear in your post does not have to be. ☮️ ☮️ ☮️
For 8 years I sat with constant forgiveness. And then I got angry. Very, very, very angry, for 2 years. I had to experience the depths of pain I had suffered through in being married to a covert narcissist, the years of abuse, gaslighting, smear campaigns, and on and on. They are still human, capable of sharing good moments and love. But in my experience, joy is 5% of the time with a narcissist, and the abusive behaviour is the larger part. I am still dealing with anger, and still married. But now I release it for my own health, my happiness is not determined by his behaviour. That is a hard journey, because while marriage isn't easy it not supposed to be abusive and toxic. I don't know that I will stay married for the rest of my life- certainly it is a hellish roller coaster. But- I can forgive, and I can live my own life and find joy in the Lord, in nature, and in the people and things that bring me peace.
I feel that we are in the same boat! I have been married for almost 33 years to a passive aggressive covert narcissist. Seven year s ago we were separated for a year and I had so much peace. But the holidays were approaching and I didn’t want my adult children to have to choose and I got reminiscent.
I forgave him, went through counseling (mostly to address his NPD) and have been back with him for seven years now.
Many times since, I have wished I had not reconciled. I do not trust him after all and the craziness continues..
Sometimes I feel so badly, I don’t want to be around other people and burden them with my troubles, as I find it hard to fake it when I feel like this.
I have continued to trusted in the Lord through all of this and he is giving me strength; but I am now praying for him to give me a clear sign to release me from this marriage. I have many reasons to believe there has been adultery, but I cannot prove it.
What is your name? Can we pray for each other? 🙏❤️
Unfortunately they tend to see forgiveness as a sign of weakness.
There is strength though in cutting the ties and wishing them farewell.
Exactly..
I sent my mom an email saying I forgive her and then goodbye.
As an adage goes: To err is human, to forgive is divine.
I've been narc free for a year now, thanks to you Dr. C.
As what you've said, radical acceptance is the key and forgiveness will emancipate a person from the hurt.
Forgive yes - but don’t reconcile if the narcissist won’t reconcile
For me, the word "forgive" has too many unrealistic connotations. I like the word you used instead, detatch. I can do that and have in a very healthy way. With years, I can now do this. Healing with therapy and time has made this possible.
I agree. I don’t think I have it in me to forgive him for 42 years of abuse that impacted my children as well as me, but I do want to work on detachment. That is something I feel is achievable for me.
In my opinion, I think that there's two types of forgiveness. There is the forgiveness to where the offended
lets go of the offense(s), move forward and a relationship can be repaired.
Then there's the forgiveness to where the offended allows themselves to let go of the anger, bitterness and resentment and moves on with the understanding that the relationship cannot be repaired. This type of forgiveness enables a person to accept what has happened, to let go, to heal the hurt and the anger and to move forward. It's really hard to let it go but at the end of the day it's about healing deep pain and moving forward. At the end of the day it's about healing, growing, moving forward and living your best life!
Dr. Carter you are right!
I am voting yes for myself and NO for depravity and evil! Thank you dr Carter.
If they do not ask for forgiveness denied. If they do ask, deny.
call them out and abandon them.
worked on everyone of tge toxic reprobates in my life.
become indifferent takes time.
Thank you Dr.Carter.
you helped me heal.
I appreciate how you said 1. "after you examine the evidence" and 2. "eliminate bitterness and hate". And the clarified the difference between "assertiveness" and "aggressiveness" ... thank you.
Glad it resonated!
Forgiveness doesn’t condone what they did, forgiveness sets ‘us’ free. Our forgiveness is for us, not them.
"I forgo evil in myself and in others" is a mantra I say and that helps me a lot.
Paying it forward: I'm trying to think of ways I can pass forward the benefits of watching this channel.
Wow! Great!
22/23 years I didn't know what a narcissist was then I found these channels 💡💡💡oh wow these channels gave me strength
You payed it forward, my community rules, you folks save my soul, plus yes , the light , forgive me , for turning ugly, thank you Dear Lord , for my struggles, I'm with go team healthy, my Doctor, shares peace and harmony, you did this Lord, you or here, watchin, we like Doctor Carter, plus yes buddy, his guest, his staff, and the folks in the other channel, yes sir, I went to miss Kerry, and , you red bloods or much great help for our well being@@lishmahlishmah
100% like the way you think. I share these videos and tell people that will listen. I keep talking about my healing and who is helping me. Its free, but u must pay attention. Several wonderful coaches on YT.
For me it's been a case of working out what makes my ex tick (covert narcissist) and why she is the way she is. I can then begin to understand things better, and see the patterns. It does nothing to remove the shame I feel at what I allowed her to reduce me to, and the impact it's had on me and my kids - but it *does* help me to let it go. Once understood, although it makes her behaviour no less reprehensible - it allows me to think it's pointless to hold that anger, in the same way it would be pointless to be angry at a shark for eating all the fish you put it in a tank with, or a lion for eating a prey animal. It's instinctive - it's what they do. They are hardwired and driven to act like that.
I guess it's not forgiveness, I'm not sure I have that in me as I feel like I've had fifteen years stolen from me and I'm too old to rebuild now - but it is like acceptance, and a kind of peace made with it.
I believe i feel the exact same way.
I struggled with this one too. I ask God to Bless him and the Anger left me! “Love Others..AS YOURSELF.” You have right to Protect yourself 😊❤
Forgiveness and repentance go hand in hand. Repentance has change in the heart, but the narcissist heart is so subconsciously emotionally stuck in entitlement and control, that it's never going to repent. To them, it's forgive and forget. That's not how forgiveness works. Hurt has being done and not forgotten as trust is the focas.
To them it's forget for you. They hold on everything tight.
I have eventually been able to “forgive”(?) all of the narcissists that have passed through my life. I think this is because I have also developed extremely strong boundaries and I no longer have anything to do with them or want to have anything to do with them. So I am free to live my life now. I don’t even want the baggage in my head of thinking about them - or acknowledging their existence. If I have to interact with one I keep it extremely formal and impersonal. It is true that any concept of forgiveness is much more about freeing yourself, than the other person.
I could go back thinking things will be different this time. Only thing is, things will be different - they'll be worse..
I don't think that is what Dr Carter means at all.
I say dont carry responsibility for them.Let them own their story.Thats forgiving, because you aren't burdened, and allowing them to own their actions and words. Thats actually a favor for both of you. Highest good.
It's like forgiving Satan.
Exactly. As a Believer there is no duty that I forgive demons.
Does God forgive the unrepentant?
Doesn't He require acts benefiting repentance?
You're not likely to get that from a narcissist.
I don't think people understand forgiveness.
You can achieve radical acceptance and even get to the place where you are no longer tormented by their continued attempts to destroy you and others.
God doesn't require you to sign up for more abuse.
Agree! Forgiveness is not in the immediate beginning, but at the caboose, at the very end of having processed everything.
Anger can be part of the grieving process and stages of grief. As we work through those stages, forgiveness may come as part of acceptance as one of the later stages of grief. I am grieving the loss of a long term, but very abusive marriage, in which I gave my entire self for 46 years, and moving through those stages.
The question of forgiveness can feel like asking a Holocaust survivor to have the guards over for dinner. Unless it is unavoidable in life situations, no one should be expected to associate with their abuser. It would be heroic if the victim can eventually get past the experience & have a happy life.
Corrie Ten Boom, specifically.
I want to be free of any feelings of anger, at anyone. I must forgive myself first. Working on this daily. Stop hissing when I look in the mirror. Dignity, Respect, Civility. GO Team Healthy!
The anger is a part of the detachment process, breaking the trauma bond. I view it as a wonderful thing when we can FINALLY get angry enough to not forgive (for a while anyway). In these relationships we have forgiven and forgiven and forgiven so many times. When we're finally pushed to the point where we're no longer so quick to forgive the narcissist, that honestly feels like a miracle. I wouldn't beat up anyone for being angry over the narcissistic abuse they've suffered. They're more than capable of forgiveness, and they'll forgive their abuser when they're good and ready.
Thank you
Interesting. I apologized and apologized and bent and knelt so many times, which is NOT the process of forgiveness. If only ONCE there would have been the contrite response after the confusing display of rage/outrage/emotional vomit.....I would love to have heard the words "I was so wrong, and I am sorry" Please forgive me? But the N never accepted any part of their bad behavior. They simply re-loaded and brought a bright smile and a new edge, with a crevasse for me to fall into (to be blamed again)
after 35 years of narcissistic abuse from so many , I can't imagine feeling human ever again.
but I do know that I do not want these horrible individuals in my life , & I'm actively fixing that situation.
This is a companionate presentation on forgiveness. Often this subject is forced on people especially in churches without giving people the time and grace to process and heal from the severe trauma.
Thank you Dr. Carter and I’m glad to be a part of Team Healthy. 🙏🏾
It's important to remember that forgiveness is something we do for ourselves. Much like boundaries, regardless of what the person wronging us does, it's our principles that matter. The process of forgiving is one of self-work and doesn't need to involve them at all.
It took me 10 years before my ex’s voice stopped making the hair on the back of my neck stand up. 26 years married to him. But, then I went & unknowingly, married another narcissist. Now, 22 years later, I’m stuck in “should I stay or should I go” mode. It’s torture. He had a rage attack in early December, throwing the bed pillows at me so hard they actually hurt (it was only 2 weeks after a full hip replacement). Several hours later, he sincerely apologized (why I still believe him, who knows?) & an hour later, he tried to make it my fault. I brought it up yesterday & he had no recollection of the event. I don’t believe he’s forgotten it. But he wants me to believe he’s forgotten it. Life with a narcissist is not only challenging, but confusing, maddening, frustrating……… etc!!
They can hurt you both emotionally and physically and the next day they behave as if it never happened. If you try to talk about it you will be gaslighted or told you’re overreacting.
FORGIVING A CONVERT PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE VINDICTIVE NARCISSISTIC BULLY ALMOST COST ME MY LIFE!!!
FORGIVENESS IS NOT THE ANSWER
Always excellent advice. Patience and calm, healthy inward work.
Forgiveness isn't healthy for unforgivable things. Forgiving people for torturing kids isn't healthy, it's enabling and gaslighting. Disconnecting from sadistic people and ways doesn't require forgiveness.
It may take a lifetime..... doesn't matter as long as I'm progressing in the right direction
Isn't indifference towards them better than forgiveness? Certain narcissists take forgiveness as a licence to continue to harm you. I know that personally from experience.
Honestly, yes.
Agreed
Nothing about forgiveness “feels right.” Until after.
My experience was that psychological separation, along with understanding the reason for my husband's dysfunction and applying the behaviors Dr. C teaches, allowed forgiveness to occur without the physical separation. Our relationship changed. He still wasn't well but the toxicity went way down. I was hoping this was also good for him, allowing him some time to heal.
@@Rachel-mz8kohe’s still a narcissist even if you don’t enable him & he’s still seeking supply so watch your back plz
Forgiveness is letting go....leave them.
Forgiveness doesn't mean reconciliation. I would never forget how i was treated by them but i dont want to hold on to the anger . The relationship is already over at that point.
So true!
Here's my take on forgiving the narc. I had a 30-year relationship with a narc husband. Lots of emotional and psychological abuse and neglect.
I have forgiven him to the point of setting myself free so that I will not carry or even think of retallion. God says, vengeance is mine! So I leave that to God. I strongly believe we reap what we sow. He will get his, but that's not my responsibility. (Liberation)
I also believe I am free to think that he is a despicable person. If that is wrong for me to do, God will settle that with me. In the meantime, I would like to share this statement I read somewhere:
"In a world that hasn't been kind, I choose to embrace the happiness I've earned."
Author unknown
I've heard some good stuff over the years:
"Resentment is like drinking a poison and expecting the person who hurt you to die. "
- 12 Step Recovery
" Forgive but don't forget, it's wise to forgive, foolish to forget" - My Grandfather & Mom
" I have to work on it daily like my alcoholism/addiction "
-12 step
"Don't take the bait"
My Dad.
Thanks for the reminder Dr. Carter. Great video.
Forgive them? Have they changed?
Forgive yourself for being a victim but go NO contact with these criminal narcissists!
I thought this was a shitty mantra. It's not, do it! They escalate if you don't break! They will always come back until you get them out.
thank you so much for all your wisdom Dr. C, God bless you & everyone on their journey to get away to safety :)
5:09 Amen, amen, and amen. Thank you.
I have a few narcissists in my circle. One in particular is more than I can handle and still be civil. What has happened for me is I set a boundary, in fact there is distance, in miles, that makes boundary setting easier. That distance has given me the ability to forgive her for the way she is. She will never change, never. Giving myself permission to keep my distance for the benefit of my own sanity is my perogative. It's better than lowering myself to being critical of her behavior, to her face.
Forgiveness is for giving... not for the abuser but more for the abused. Forgiveness releases the victim freeing up energy and blocked potential. Then again, there is value in NOT forgiving. Not forgiving the abuser can help the abused get in touch with a sense of power that was previously suppressed. Not forgiving someone (although it has helped getting the housework done faster) is useful until it's no longer needed...then I let go. Detaching is well said. Thank you Dr C🥰
Matt is alive in Boise Idaho ♥️
I say that you can forgive ... Just do it privately. These people will never change their ways and will take your forgiveness as another opportunity to walk all over you. You give an inch, and they'll take 10 miles, and then you're back to square one with them. Narcs don't seek reconciliation-- they always seek dominance and control.
I don't want revenge on my narc in-laws that I have gone no contact with. I wish them no ill will or misfortune to fall on them. I just want to be left alone and left at peace.
I'm on board with what you say here.
Only the forgiving are qualified to receive forgiveness.
That may be because the unforgiving would not receive forgiveness and will continue to do harm.
Stay Healthy!!
I chose forgiveness . I also chose me and to walk away. Forgiveness is like wearing a royal robe of love everyday. Walking in the spirit of love radiates liberty and light. I am free . I am not them cruel and bitter. I am kind and free.
One point: You forgive for YOURSELF and YOUR mental health - not theirs. It's how you let go and walk away from a no-win situation. And yeah, that's harder than hell. As someone says a couple of posts below, it's about emancipation. Yours - not theirs.
In my case, I forgave, but I have definitely did not forget. I went completely no contact 8 years ago. I happened to run into them (a couple with N wife) two weeks ago unexpectedly and with my boundaries completely up, I inquired how it was going and the response was very much like a gaslight and history reframe to which I silently listened to with no reaction from myself at all.
*I* *know* *the* *truth* *that* *I* *need* *for* *my* *internal* *closure* (i.e. snowballs chance in hell at reconciliation). Now I am back toward radical acceptance and complete no contact...
BTW, Dr. Carter, you need to know that you helped me through this big time! I do not think that I can thank you enough! I send my blessings and good wishes.
Have you ever had a burger so AMAZING that you want everyone you know to try it? Even people you’ve just recently met? You just want to see the smile on their face after they taste it. You didn’t make the burger, so you really have nothing to gain or lose. And if they’d prefer to remain hungry, that’s ok, too. You just know that they are missing out.
That burger is forgiveness.
The forgiveness burger 🍔🙃😄
Forgiveness.
*Problem 1*
This is a crucial topic for which I would like to see professionals (psychologists) enter churches, synagogues, mosques (etc) and held very in deep classes for pastors, priests (etc) in order to teach them the most accurate discernment between normal relationships and pathological abusive relationships.
Even though the major religious institutions have their own graduate psychologists and therapists, etc... unfortunately the level of knowledge of these problems is very low. Sometimes non existent.
They really know only 2 situations
> normal relationships
> violent physical abuse
Usually, even though they can have some written documents and information, they have no experience (and they are not trained) for dealing with other abusive and devastating relationships.
So, people asking for help mostly receive non-helpful responses. For example, we can receive the wrong explanation of forgiveness, not exactly applicable to our specific cases.
(It's not because the pastor or priest doesn't know "the doctrine". It's because they don't know narcissistic abuse)
But their schooling is long and in depth. Why should they not know? They have the whole study of the Bible and Theology.
There is a disconnect then. They say how we are to treat one another and our children but they hear confessions of all and watch it all unfold.
Laity can be poorly catechized but to those with much are expected more?
Interested in your thoughts. 🕯✨️
@well_weathered
*Yes, there is a disconnect, definitely.*
In my opinion, firstly because they see the relationship like a normal one with some problems. They don't see the fact that it is an abnormal relationship 24/7
Or they don't know how to deal with it. The "how to" part is probably still not taught to our pastors.
This is one of the main gaps we have today in the Catholic Church. Again, my personal opinion.
There is also a disconnect with this ⬇️
"Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay"
(Note for non Cath. > this is not "divorce") .
This is leaving = separation.
In other words, in today's psychological popular terms it is the No Contact, indeed. And they have been reading it in the Canon Law for years / decades.
Meaning, they know that these situations are there. And the situations are there even if the spouse don't leave or can't leave.
This is the point they are not informed or trained enough.
Last but not least, [btw, this thing was also said by Benedict XVI , in religious terms, still it was said in important interviews]
the gap of studies about nullity of marriage
in light of new knowledge about personality disorders and the actual immaturity of a person who is unable to make mature promises with a mature Faith.
Actually, today we have causes of matrimonial nullity even for less serious reasons than the above ones.
Absolutely, there is a serious disconnect about all this.
I think my reply is visible by switching in the latest comment section
@@lishmahlishmahThank you. This is something I so appreciate. Something I can refer to, something that can't be dismissed!
🫂 🧡 ✨️🕯
Forgiveness is overrated when it comes to abuse. In my mind, I have accepted I was targeted by people who have personality disorders and now that I'm gone from their lives they will keep on targeting more people, as it is in their nature. It was a fatality that I was the one targeted back then. But to forgive them? Not necessary. I just accept their nature and move on.
Forgive? Nah. Perhaps it's only a fine point, but there won't ever be forgiveness from me. What I understood recently is the dismissive, controlling, unkind things he did and said to me while we were together were like error patterns on a math worksheet. He had incomplete and incorrect understanding, with no skills. Therefore he continued to make the same errors over and over. I don't need to figure out where his understanding broke down and I'm not responsible for his making those errors (though he always told me I was). What I can say to myself is, "Oh, he makes repeated errors. I'm not interested in participating in those errors. He can't perceive he made any errors, and so they'll just keep happening. That's boring." I walked away. I no longer make it mean anything about me.. I was the neutral math homework sheet.
Forgiveness isn't about tolerating their behavior or even for them, it's for you and with the understanding that these people actually do have a true development disorder. That's the truth. Their behavior very sincerely isn't personal. I always say....they hate everyone equally and without bias. That's the truth. I forgave my ex when I remind myself that rather than look at his outward appearance (a grown man) to remind myself to imagine visually seeing him in his truestest form....a 17-19 year old boy looking back at me. Then I am like....oh yeah, true, he truly is just a 10yr old in a man's body/form. I think these are exactly all the same behaviors....no appreciation, always asking for more, no logic or reasoning, temper tantrums, no boundaries, keep arguing and fighting, always want the last word, bullies, emotionally dysregulated, why the dire need to not be alone and without a mommy or daddy figure, or other people to do things pay for them as they can't do so themselves, multiple little girlfriends/playmates, etc.
It's not Hatred, it's fear of Repeats, therefore victim is left waiting for the next dish of abuses, because if abuser strikes once, what's to stop them from Repeating said abuses. The Trust has clearly been trampled.Obviously victim has been left with any security has been shattered.
Sounds like the mom pushing for forgiveness is the same one who made her daughter a doormat and made her believe healthy anger is bad and sinful and women should always be nice good forgiving girls. The daughter needs to self validate her anger and learn from it. Healthy anger is a great signal to protect oneself from dangerous boundary violations and dangerous people. Once we accept our healthy anger and follow through on it taking action to protect ourselves, it naturally disappears. If we don't embrace healthy anger, it reinforces feeling powerless and keeps us being nice to abusers and it simmers below and then can turn into bitterness and resentment. The mother needs to step away and stop judging her daughter and start loving her. One genuine unconditional supportive hug from her mother instead of endless expectations and advice on what to feel and who to be would go a long way to curing the actual problem - that the daughter didn't feel loved and didn't learn to love herself enough and didn't feel supported and validated by her mother in being powerful and saying no to abusers. Once the daughter feels empowered, she moves on with her life and forgiveness, detachment, even forgetting appear naturally.
So well put!
Some of the things that my Ex narcissist husband did to me over many years are unforgivable, and in 40 years I don't think he ever said 'I'm Sorry' once with any meaning behind it.
Great advice 👍🏻
When my Higher Power was working on me for forgiving/amends with someone I was in the shower listening to a Sinead O'Connor CD.. There was a point in the song where it said "I should have hatred for you but I do not have any" that the CD stopped and started the song over and stopped at that spot for 6 times.. I got the message and that was the beginning of the forgiving/amends process.. The next part was to tell the person that I was working on forgiving/amends with them and that what ever happened was between me and my Higher Power and you and your Higher Power.. Then there was court stuff and business stuff with them and all that was between me and my Higher Power..
I don’t trust the narcissist, but I will forgive him because I don’t want him to hold over me what he has in his heart. How can I love others and be friends with them if I keep the anger from him and I really don’t trust him won’t trust him no better, but I just keep as much away from him as possibleso I can have peace and be me
Anger and initial feelings of aggression can be the first step to heal; natural human emotions. I don´t think you need to be afraid of these reactions. On the contrary - to supress them can be unhealthy. Accept, and give yourself the right to be upset! Thus it will pass and you can stand up tall.
Forgiveness is a good way to start because forgiving is for yourself, your mental and physical health. But forgiving is always a process. First in your heart, you forgive, but that doesn't mean to go back in the relationship. Trust starts when the other person shows they want to change. Especially if that person has done infidelity and did a lot of damage to the relationship. Unusually, a narcissistic personality will say it's all your fault and not look at their own actions and faults. They can't change on their own because they feel they are completely innocent. I was married to someone like that for 33 years and four months. When he left, he would only text me. I told him I had forgiven him. He has not shown any effort to show he was truly sorry for what he did. All he did was talk about the other woman saying how we would be great friends.... etc etc. He was not sorry and was not willing to make a change. Just because someone says they are sorry doesn't mean you should trust them automatically. There are steps to get back to a better relationship and that starts with change of both parties.
Forgiveness is freedom.
❤ Amen you forgive a million times. It’s just what you do. But justice says believe what you see. Believe what you hear. They despise you and seek your harm endlessly.
I have forgiven my deceased mother and that took thirty years. I will not forgive my in laws or step son, nor my sister. Ever. No quarter. Absolutely no forgiveness for evil.
It's tricky, as I know in my case, I was the family scapegoat due to being completely different and an easygoing, mellow child. The whole point of the decades of mistreatment was to train the natural happiness out of me, so I'd be bitter and twisted. It didn't work, even when they sank to seriously heinous depths.
Yes, you will have the anger phase of recovery, but if you ultimately reach a point of contentment, where the narcissist is a past chapter that you have no desire to revisit, forgiveness isn't required for healing.
Forgiveness.
*Problem 2*
Today, [ for reasons I have not yet explored ]
many secular people often seems to use the term forgiveness in a much more religiously "extreme" (?) meaning than religious people themselves (priests, pastors, rabbis, etc).
As far as I know, considering only the Christian doctrines (I think they all agree),
forgiveness basically consists in
> first, not doing or planning any retaliation or revenge against the abusers.
> Moreover, if/when the victim can decide freely and without any compelling moral obligations, forgiveness also mean that the victim does not request moral compensation for the damages they suffered.
Meaning, the victim / survivor may say, okay, the relationship is over, I don't want to have any relations anymore even for any kind of future moral reparation. I don't even expect you say "sorry". I'd have a right to make this request. Still, I want to forgive you. You don't owe me anything. It's over. End of the story.
[as far as I know this is the full Christian forgiveness. And, to be precise, for some thinkers, this also goes a bit "further" because the survivor relinquishes the abusers' request for forgiveness].
*What forgiveness is not.*
Forgiving is not forgetting what happened [this is humanly impossible] .
Forgiving is not going back to the previous situation.
Even if you stay in the same house or in some kind of contact with the narcissists, all the terms of the relationship will be completely different.
No revenge. No long faces. But I can no longer behave like I used to or trust the narcissist.
*Looking forward to hear this Unbound episode with dr C point of view*
🕯✨️
"You don't have to 'should' anything." 😮
So long as she has the kids half the time, and I know she continues to alternate between ignoring them and calling them names, I can't forgive her, until they are free too.
I also want to learn and have an open heart.
I agree 👍
Thanks!
It doesn’t feel right. I constantly am forgiving and moving on(without so much as an explanation/acknowledgement/apology) just to turn around something horrible happens again. I’m such an idiot for staying.
Why are you sitting on Gus's couch? That's his couch!
I feel like I was given the opportunity to forgive for less than 24 hours despite my stepMIL's numerous apologies. As soon as boundaries were drawn, she stopped communicating. It's been over 1.5 years of silent treatment from her which has turned into no contact from us.
Forgiveness does not necessarily mean reconciliation. But when you forgive someone when you set yourself free from the bondage of hatred.
For me the most important issue is to work on forgiving yourself, for your choices, the things you notice, the things you didnt. 3 years later, still processing everything - other difficulites have slowed healing down, but a little healing work every day really works. The person you are working on being is much more important and healing and your working on the cognitive dissonance that Narc's give you....sych a good video, stick with your new you journey....
I agree absolutely: I don't forgive my ex, after 24 years of manipulating and lying to me. He'd still be hurting me if I let him. But neither do I wish him evil, or try to add to his misery. Why would I? He does that on his own. Most importantly, wishing bad for him would keep me emotionally invested in him, and I want NO further investment or attachment at all. In fact I wish he'd meet a fabulously wealthy old woman with advanced dementia and no heirs. He'd be set for life, she wouldn't know he was using her, and I'd never hear from him again.
It's been 4 years since I went no contact with the narcissist that WAS in my life. They are still trying to hoover me back in.
I was the last friend they had.
I don't forgive them. Forgiveness is reserved for those who love me and have made a mistake.
It's like forgiving Hitler.
For me, I just wish it could all be reversed. I wish I'd known then 6:12 what I know now. I want to get to a place where I don't think about it daily or remember certain incidents so often.
my sons father put us through 'hell', co parenting was so diificult, and although I knew something was off, I just thought he was a dickhead, arrogant and selfish, and just got on with it...losing my place/property in a way, and completely baffled as to why 'our' son gravitated towards him, visting his dad recently seeing although a highly 'intelligent' person, he lived in squalor, and realising the parent alienation facet after 22 years, brought it home that the anger, resentment, grief which I ahve expressed lacks the full understanding of this person having a mental illness...I still feel angry at the conflict/stress/triangualtion caused but in perspective, my son and I are much better connected, and maybe the veil will someday lift from his eyes, but in the meantime, i just feel sorry for his father as he had potential but I see him as empty, a pretender and happy in his own little world, his health not so good, and what it takes to keep up the facade, must be terribly depleting...so yeah, not forgiveness but understanding that he is a broken human being and in a way not his fault! Just makes me feel sad that this insidous 'NPD' is so damaging to so many.
It wasn't easy but I was able to have a decent amount of forgiveness with the help of people like on this channel by learning and accepting who these abusers were
Once I learned that it was just their nature it was easier but I didn't have full forgiveness until they passed
Its just what it is 😮
After my first husband passed I found out more information I hadn't know and it was definitely the closure needed.
I can not forget the poison, and I can not forgive the poison, but I myself can stay well away from it.
Central Time Zone- 😢 North America: btw: in thanksgiving to technical support team and admin staff/ from San Angelo, TX- SJT
For the record- Doctor Carter, Ph.D. And as well amazing 🥲 puppy 🐶 Gus/ btw/ thank you 😊: again; thank you 😊 ( USA 🇺🇸)
btw- the presentation ( awareness- mental health happy 😃/ information ℹ️ fabulous) btw/ is awesome 😎 Again: awesome 😎/ ( USA 🇺🇸) . BTW- thanks 😊
Thanks, Michelle!
Forgiveness you do for yourself to prevent bitterness . Take the high road …. It’s part of letting go and detaching yourself.
With B&W thinking they want the slate to be wiped clean. How many times must that happen? Typically there's never an apology and the patterns of behavior don't change. Like Charlie Brown & Lucy kicking the football. Many equate forgiveness with reconciliation. Apples and oranges. Forgiveness with distancing is very different from restored trust and reconciliation. Protect your peace. Limit contact with abusers and codependents.
There is no reason to forgive , because he or she will continue with his/ her bad behaving .
No contact can create space to let it stay in the rear view mirror
My boyfriend has prostate cancer and we are dealibg with his emotional affair with his ex. Hi sais to me "I wont go get treatment and if I die it's on you." He wants me to stop talking about it. These people are monsters.
I wont ever forgjve him he did it over and over again.
Sorry, I’m not that big of a person. I will not forgive 60 years of narcissistic abuse. I cut her loose and never looked back. Two years now I’ve had peace. Why would I let that person back in my life? I’m not looking for revenge. I’m just ignoring her.
I was really happy I ran into my ex the other week because.......................she's no longer in my life. Made me smile!
It depends entirely on a person's definition of 'forgiveness'. The modern definition of forgiveness is 'not holding a grudge'. The Biblical definition of forgiveness is much different. Forgiveness in the Biblical sense is wiping clean the slate. It is as if the sin had never been committed and restores the relationship to the state prior to the offence. But within the Biblical definition, remorse and repentance is a condition to forgiveness. Also, it is conditional on change of behaviour and turning away from that behaviour. If the person does not repent, then you are not obliged to forgive but it is also not Biblical to hold a grudge. So what you can do is give it to God. He is a just God and can take the burden from you, you can rest knowing it will be handled fairly, and you do not need to hold a grudge nor seek revenge. This has given me peace. I also physically removed myself from those who would like to do me harm. When the Bible says forgive, the illustration was of someone begging forgiveness and being refused it. That was not acceptable. It never said to forgive someone who was not sorry.
The understanding I have is indifference at this point as far as contact. I can forgive the person but I don't have to forgive the deeds.
GOD says Forgive but HE didn't say that you actually have to have a close relationship with abusive people.